Start-only KERS

[N4D13]

Some in the press are claiming that Red Bull might have a start-only KERS which cannot be recharged during the race - that's why they are calling it start-only, ofc. :D

Do you think this is true? I doubt it - we already had this last year with Red Bull's ride control system. And if they have this system, why didn't they use it during qualifying?

[Mark]

I dunno perhaps they don't think it's reliable enough to use every lap?

[Bagwan]

This "start only" system that has been speculated here seems to be currently the best guess that everyone has about why the Bulls run so fast .

But , is it legal , if this speculation is true ?

By definition , it may not be .
It is defined in the rules as :
“A system that is designed to recover kinetic energy from the car during braking, store that energy and make it available to propel the car.”

If they are charging it in the pits , it is not energy derived from the car during braking at all .

The only way to make this work , as I see it , would be to use the practice sessions to charge the battery , and remove the items before the race .
This might be possible , as the cars are not in parc ferme until after quals .
It sure seems like it would be tricky to do , though , as the ballance should change demonstrably , if you were moving ballast enough to optimize it .

[BDunnell]

This "start only" system that has been speculated here seems to be currently the best guess that everyone has about why the Bulls run so fast .

But , is it legal , if this speculation is true ?

By definition , it may not be .
It is defined in the rules as :
“A system that is designed to recover kinetic energy from the car during braking, store that energy and make it available to propel the car.”

If they are charging it in the pits , it is not energy derived from the car during braking at all .

The only way to make this work , as I see it , would be to use the practice sessions to charge the battery , and remove the items before the race .
This might be possible , as the cars are not in parc ferme until after quals .
It sure seems like it would be tricky to do , though , as the ballance should change demonstrably , if you were moving ballast enough to optimize it .

I was thinking about this earlier. Do the rules state that a KERS system has to 'recover kinetic energy from the car during braking, store that energy and make it available to propel the car', or merely that this is what a KERS system is?

[AndyL]

Looking at the rules, the KERS system must recover energy under braking (or at least be capable of it), as per Bagwan's quote from 1.20 of the technical regulations. If the system can't recover energy, then by the definition, it's not a KERS; and 5.2.1 says that the only things that can propel the car are the engine and a KERS.

However, there's nothing that says how quickly you have to be able to recover energy. And you are allowed to fully charge the system beforehand - even in parc ferme, this is specifically permitted in the sporting regs. You can't charge it during pit stops though.

So it may be that the Red Bull system can recover energy, but only at a very slow rate. That would mean they could have a lightweight reg/rect, and perhaps get away with having no or minimal cooling for the charging circuits and batteries. Given the trim shape of the Red Bull sidepods, not having to accommodate KERS cooling could be a significant benefit.

[Sonic]

Hmmm. Interesting.

Could just be rummor and speculation but if there is any truth in it, Red Bull may have been extremely clever and stolen a(nother) march on the field. KERS biggest advantage was always off the line - Kimi would have lost to Fissi at spa without that kick. Obviously there is a maximum amount of charge they can harvest but the regs don't specify (I think) a minimum charge speed. The Bull could be capable of harvesting energy, albeit in minimal amounts to satisfy the regs, whilst giving them the boost off the line to keep them out of the way of the pack.

Best of both worlds? Boost from the line and epic packaging? Who knows.

[Sonic]

Looking at the rules, the KERS system must recover energy under braking (or at least be capable of it), as per Bagwan's quote from 1.20 of the technical regulations. If the system can't recover energy, then by the definition, it's not a KERS; and 5.2.1 says that the only things that can propel the car are the engine and a KERS.

However, there's nothing that says how quickly you have to be able to recover energy. And you are allowed to fully charge the system beforehand - even in parc ferme, this is specifically permitted in the sporting regs. You can't charge it during pit stops though.

So it may be that the Red Bull system can recover energy, but only at a very slow rate. That would mean they could have a lightweight reg/rect, and perhaps get away with having no or minimal cooling for the charging circuits and batteries. Given the trim shape of the Red Bull sidepods, not having to accommodate KERS cooling could be a significant benefit.

Oopps! Didn't see your post before I added my 2 cents. Great minds eh?

[Robinho]

from what i understand, it does "trickle" charge, the recovery is no the problem, its the small batteries that cannot charge quickly, so they use it just at the beginning. it makes sense (why would they not use it if they had it) and when you look at what the drivers were saying, things like "I couldn't find the button" there is definately something going on.

[Robinho]

Christian Horner just stated that Red Bull have not had it on all weekend, tried it on friday and didn't like it so they took it off. in your face everyone else

[AndyL]

Sneaky devils :D

[Tumbo]

no KERS and still blitzed the field - worrying sign for non-Adrian Newey designed cars?

[Dave B]

So no KERS whatsoever in the race! And Seb STILL won.... :O

[Sonic]

BOOM! that's the sound of that theory being blown out of the water.

[Daniel]

So no KERS whatsoever in the race! And Seb STILL won.... :O

They need to make KERS more powerful until you simply can't afford to run without it.

[Robinho]

as soon as Mac and Ferrari (and maybe Renault) are close enough to RB that on track you can't afford to not have KERs then they'll run it i guess. if the car is the same speed with or without KERS then you need to have it for the advantage it gives in the race, as DRS and KERS will see them sitting ducks on the straights at some tracks

[SGWilko]

as soon as Mac and Ferrari (and maybe Renault) are close enough to RB that on track you can't afford to not have KERs then they'll run it i guess. if the car is the same speed with or without KERS then you need to have it for the advantage it gives in the race, as DRS and KERS will see them sitting ducks on the straights at some tracks

Well, you'd expect them to be a lot kinder on the tyres with not being compromised on weight distribution.

How will they fair when they have to run KERS when the others catch up - which they will, no doubt about it.

[Somebody]

Well, you'd expect them to be a lot kinder on the tyres with not being compromised on weight distribution.

4.2 Weight distribution :
For 2011 only, the weight applied on the front and rear wheels must not be less than 291kg and 342kg respectively at
all times during the qualifying practice session.

[SGWilko]

4.2 Weight distribution :
For 2011 only, the weight applied on the front and rear wheels must not be less than 291kg and 342kg respectively at
all times during the qualifying practice session.

Aha, that clears that up then. What about packaging, cooling and brake balance issues then - stuff they are not gaining experience of on-track in a live race scenario?

[SGWilko]

"We made a decision with the KERS, he added. "It's quite a complex system, it's an interesting technology, but Adrian [Newey] being Adrian would not compromise the car around the system so it has had to fit into his aero shape and that's presented some bigger challenges.

This is where they will f*ck up when they have to run KERS.

[ShiftingGears]

RBR definitely need it for the start - Australia has a short front straight, and even with starting on the clean side and having a much better initial start off the line, Webber couldn't do anything about Hamilton after he hit the KERS button. Considering how long the front straight is in Sepang compared to Albert Park, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see both the RBR cars lose positions at the start. Should make it an interesting challenge to RBR.

[Mark]

Well they do have a weakness then! Should make things a bit more interesting.