Two-thirds of Britons not religious, suggests survey

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Nearly two-thirds of people do not regard themselves as "religious", a new survey carried out to coincide with the 2011 Census suggests.

The British Humanist Association (BHA), which commissioned the poll, said people often identified themselves as religious for cultural reasons.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12799801

[Garry Walker]

So at least 1/3 still suffer from stupidity (mind you, religious types are not the only ones suffering from lack of mental prowess).

[BDunnell]

And yet still people write a load of crap like 'Jedi' or whatever when filling in the census forms, rather than 'Nothing' or 'Atheist'.

[Tazio]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12799801
So that suggest that religious faith, is on roughly the same footing as crop circles ;)

[Daniel]

And yet still people write a load of crap like 'Jedi' or whatever when filling in the census forms, rather than 'Nothing' or 'Atheist'.

Because it's kool! hahaha lol! :dozey:

P.S I post on another forum where the most asinine of comments by some of the airheads on there are always followed up by "hahaha lol!" for example, I took my car out for a drive today and when I got out I realised that my tyres had ever so slightly less tread on them after my drive haha lol!!!!!

[Tazio]

Because it's kool! hahaha lol! :dozey:

P.S I post on another forum where the most asinine of comments by some of the airheads on there are always followed up by "hahaha lol!" for example, I took my car out for a drive today and when I got out I realised that my tyres had ever so slightly less tread on them after my drive haha lol!!!!!

My son has a small tat below one of his knees that says:
Jedi Knight Hahaha lol :s mokin:

[Brown, Jon Brow]

And yet still people write a load of crap like 'Jedi' or whatever when filling in the census forms, rather than 'Nothing' or 'Atheist'.

I think this would advocate the opinion that many people now view the notion of religion as a joke.

[race aficionado]

So that suggest that religious faith, is on roughly the same footing as crop circles ;)

Hey! I love crop circles!


:s mokin:

[Rollo]

If I look through the OED to find a definition of religion, I should logically ignore the first definition which involves the belief and worship of an otherwise controlling and/or supernatural being which may involve one, many or no gods.

Therefore, skipping to the second and third definitions, we read that Religion according to the OED is:
2. "a particular system of faith and/or worship",
3. "a controlling influence on a person's life"

My great conjecture is that in broad terms, faith is what a person believes or trusts in, and that religion is a set of practices which stem from this; nothing more and nothing less. Equally the term religion could be applied to what Richard Dawkins does as some sort of evangelistic atheism but that opens up another discussion well beyond the scope of this thread.

I would suggest that because everybody believes something (even if you believe there is no god, which is still belief of something), ergo everybody has their own unique religion of sorts. Whether or not it is codified is entirely another matter, but since religion is a set of practices, and everybody acts (I can't think of the most general verb, but no-one is totally inanimate), then it is not a logical leap to suggest that everyone has a religion. Maybe they're not religious in that they don't have an "Active" set of beliefs and practices but that's different.

[Tazio]

I think this would advocate the opinion that many people now view the notion of religion as a joke.

On the census I think it can only be meaningless if not counterproductive. However,
I'm an American and we are famous for not having health coverage.
Quite some time ago, probably 15 years ago maybe a little more. I showed up at the hospital feeling like $hit,
The Dr. informed me I had bi-lateral pneumonia, and I'd be hanging out for awhile. I really couldn't argue with him
because I was hurting so badly, and had such a high fever that I could barely think. They admitted me and right
before they hooked me up on the big guns (strong intro. antibiotics) they handed me a form that had about 5 or 6 questions
The first one was the name of my Insurance Co. and the last one was what religion I practiced. As much as I wanted to be honest
and admit I was a pagan. I had a gut feeling that a mainstream religion would be at the least benign.
I checked the box that said Catholic.
8 days later (and keep in mind this was some time ago when things were not nearly
as expensive) I was released and I received a bill for Just under $17,000.00. Roughly one month later I received a letter from Catholic
Family Charities (and mind you I did no solicitation) Included was a document saying they covered $13,000.00 of the medical bill.
Praise the lord brother, Praise the lord. :s mokin:

[Tazio]

Hey! I love crop circles!


:s mokin:
That is immaterial you are not a Brit, (I think) and Brits are queer for crop circles ;) :s mokin:

[race aficionado]

That is immaterial you are not a Brit, (I think) and Brits are queer for crop circles ;) :s mokin:

I got my Brit passport.
Does that count? :D

:s mokin:

[Tazio]

I got my Brit passport.
Does that count? :D

:s mokin:
I'll let you slide :p : :s mokin:

[Retro Formula 1]

I've seen a crop circle and I've seen Star Wars many times but I 'aint never seen some omnipotent, omnipresent all seeing deity. Sounds like some sort of Dictator to me that has been responsible for countless deaths and crimes against humanity. Torture, murder, rape all in the name of God?

Isn't it time the UN took a stance about this madman. He makes Gadaffi look positivly cuddly.

[Mark]

And yet still people write a load of crap like 'Jedi' or whatever when filling in the census forms, rather than 'Nothing' or 'Atheist'.


I truthfully put my religion down as "None". A lot of people will still write their religion as "Christian" or "Church of England" even though they don't ever go to church or don't have any particular beliefs, I think in some cases it's more of a cultural thing, or perhaps "I'm not Muslem or Hindu or Catholic so I must be CofE?"

[Dave B]

And yet still people write a load of crap like 'Jedi' or whatever when filling in the census forms, rather than 'Nothing' or 'Atheist'.

I must confess to being a temporary Jedi a decade ago, but the joke's been done now. Mind you, it's about as valid as any other religion (ie fictional).

I notice there's a gathering movement for some kind of "fair fuel tax" protest on this year's census, but I fear that putting any religion will be used to justify spending more money on lunacy like faith schools.

[Mark]

The problem I have with the likes of Jesus, God and all that regime is that who elected them? I certainly didn't vote for them!

[gadjo_dilo]

So nearly two-thirds of people do not regard themselves as "religious".....So what? I reckon about 99% of people on this planet do not regard themselves as selfish, ignorant, etc.
Ha, ha, lol!!!!!!

[BDunnell]

I truthfully put my religion down as "None". A lot of people will still write their religion as "Christian" or "Church of England" even though they don't ever go to church or don't have any particular beliefs, I think in some cases it's more of a cultural thing, or perhaps "I'm not Muslem or Hindu or Catholic so I must be CofE?"

Exactly!

[Retro Formula 1]

So nearly two-thirds of people do not regard themselves as "religious".....So what? I reckon about 99% of people on this planet do not regard themselves as selfish, ignorant, etc.
Ha, ha, lol!!!!!!

So, does that mean that only 1% of people are religious :)

[gadjo_dilo]

The problem I have with the likes of Jesus, God and all that regime is that who elected them? I certainly didn't vote for them!

Sorry to disappoint you but there are many other things in this world that happen regardless your "vote".

Now seriously, the tendency to see some phenomena in their existance as sacred is specific for humans and it express their need to give value and idealization just to compensate their inability and imperfection. Sacramental behaviour is related to a permenent human aspiration to fulfil and self-excel and is focused to an ideal, absolute, transcendental, supernatural projection.

If 2/3 of the Brits consider themselves at that stage of perfection and lose the last sparkle of "homo religious" then I don't have to worry about the future ( despite a local saying about the man that if he's not tigerish enough he's not .....ha, ha, lol).

[gadjo_dilo]

So, does that mean that only 1% of people are religious :)

No. Being religious doesn't mean you're perfect. I guess in most religions man is the subject of sin. That's why in some religions they have to do penitence. :laugh:

What I want to underline is that in real life if many people "do not regard themselves as....", it doesn't mean they're not.

[Dave B]

I can understand why our ancestors, faced with the mysteries of the universe, invented the concept of god as a creator and destroyer. How else could they explain the existence of life, the rising of the sun, the seasons and the weather?

But as we got to know the answers to these questions it baffles me why anybody would want to cling on to the notion of god. Very strange. Still, so long as they leave me in peace (not like the feckin' Jehovahs who came round yesterday!) then live and let live.

[MrJan]

But as we got to know the answers to these questions it baffles me why anybody would want to cling on to the notion of god. Very strange.

Fear is a powerful thing. Most people don't believe in God but are worried about being wrong. It's also easier for them to comprehend some bloke clicking his fingers and creating life than it is to imagine billions of years of evolution.

Incidentally I did see something on twitter suggesting putting 'Motorsport' down as a religion, maybe that would help with the move to change the road closures thing for rallying :D

[Tazio]

I've seen a crop circle and I've seen Star Wars many times but I 'aint never seen some omnipotent, omnipresent all seeing deity. Sounds like some sort of Dictator to me that has been responsible for countless deaths and crimes against humanity. Torture, murder, rape all in the name of God?

Isn't it time the UN took a stance about this madman. He makes Gadaffi look positivly cuddly.

http://www.myspace.com/video/vid/5254345#pm_cmp=vid_OEV_P_P

[Retro Formula 1]

Love that song :)

[Tazio]

Love that song :)

I read somewhere Mick said it was inspired by some of Baudelaire’s dark poetry!

[chuck34]

It's also easier for them to comprehend some bloke clicking his fingers and creating life than it is to imagine billions of years of evolution.

I know I'm going to open myself up to scorn and ridicule ... But here goes anyway.

Why must God and evolution be mutually exclusive? When I read the story of Genesis, I see evolution. Granted the timescales are different, but as it says elsewhere in the Bible (sorry don't know exactly where) something like, to God a year is like a day, and a day is like a year. I think that knowing more about science, biology, physics, and the like does not have to lead you away from God. In fact, for me at least, it tends to bring me a bit closer to God. I want to know how he set up the rules governing the universe, it makes me feel a bit closer to him to have an understanding of how things work.

Anyway, that's what I think. I'm guessing that most here will think me silly. But that's ok too.

[BDunnell]

I know I'm going to open myself up to scorn and ridicule ... But here goes anyway.

Why must God and evolution be mutually exclusive? When I read the story of Genesis, I see evolution. Granted the timescales are different, but as it says elsewhere in the Bible (sorry don't know exactly where) something like, to God a year is like a day, and a day is like a year. I think that knowing more about science, biology, physics, and the like does not have to lead you away from God. In fact, for me at least, it tends to bring me a bit closer to God. I want to know how he set up the rules governing the universe, it makes me feel a bit closer to him to have an understanding of how things work.

Anyway, that's what I think. I'm guessing that most here will think me silly. But that's ok too.

Not silly at all! But your view, which is one I respect while not personally agreeing with, is predicated on the notion that God exists in the first place. An existing non-believer is very unlikely to be convinced as to the existence of God by way of studying what we know of the science.

[gadjo_dilo]

I can understand why our ancestors, faced with the mysteries of the universe, invented the concept of god as a creator and destroyer. How else could they explain the existence of life, the rising of the sun, the seasons and the weather?

But as we got to know the answers to these questions it baffles me why anybody would want to cling on to the notion of god. Very strange.

I'm afraid we still can't answer the most important question : what's the purpose of our existance on earth? Not to mention many other things that aren't related esp. to the "material" part of life.

I rather think that those who have a religious experience can perceive the whole nature as a sacralized cosmos.
The sacred is always manifested as a reality different of the "natural" reality. Our language can express only in a naive way notions like tremendum, majestas, mysterium fascinans, using words taken from natural field or from our profane life.

[chuck34]

Not silly at all! But your view, which is one I respect while not personally agreeing with, is predicated on the notion that God exists in the first place. An existing non-believer is very unlikely to be convinced as to the existence of God by way of studying what we know of the science.

No, no, quite the opposite. If you look at all the "luck" that has gone into our evolution, I find it harder and harder to believe there isn't some sort of "guiding hand". Look at the precise position of our planet relative to the sun. The nature of the sun itself. The presence of a single, stable moon, and it's effects on this planet. All the happenstance leading down the evolutionary path. It goes on and on. Personally, the more I find out about the history of our species, planet, universe, the more I'm convinced that something had to set it up and give some "nudges" to certain things at critical times.

That being said I don't necessarily believe that God is guiding every little detail on a daily basis. He's just setting up circumstances to "help" things along.

[Dave B]

No, no, quite the opposite. If you look at all the "luck" that has gone into our evolution, I find it harder and harder to believe there isn't some sort of "guiding hand". Look at the precise position of our planet from the sun. The presence of a single, stable moon, and it's effects on this planet. All the happenstance leading down the evolutionary path.
Not really that lucky. There are billions of stars in each of billions of galaxies. It would be remarkable if there wasn't life on some of them.

[ArrowsFA1]

I'm afraid we still can't answer the most important question : what's the purpose of our existance on earth?
Does there have to be one? :dozey:

[Mark]

I think ultimately that's the answer that many can't cope with, there's no real point to life at all!

[Rollo]

Not silly at all! But your view, which is one I respect while not personally agreeing with, is predicated on the notion that God exists in the first place. An existing non-believer is very unlikely to be convinced as to the existence of God by way of studying what we know of the science.

Seeing as both positions on whether God exists or not are a priori, this argument has the potential to last indefinitely and frequently does; and speaking as a Christian I think that you are not only perfectly entitled to such a position, but have every right to speak your mind as such as well.


Why must God and evolution be mutually exclusive? When I read the story of Genesis, I see evolution. Granted the timescales are different, but as it says elsewhere in the Bible (sorry don't know exactly where) something like, to God a year is like a day, and a day is like a year.

There are some really weird things going on here:

1. Biblical Hebrew contains no past, present or future tenses.

2. If it's taken literally or alegorically makes no real difference to how mankind relates to either God or each other, does it?

3. Time... this is really weird:
Whereever you have a larger pool of gravity due to a star or a planet etc. time is actually "slower" the closer you get to the very large gravitational body. In fact, this is critical with GPS Positioning systems, because time moves more slowly on earth than it does up there with satellites and they frequently need to be synchronised.
As a consequence and a logical corollary, if you assume that the Big Bang is the mechanism for how the universe began, then with all of the matter of the universe compressed into a singularity, time itself becomes infinitely slow. Because we know virtually nothing about the mathematics which exist to describe this, then it is possible that the universe could have actually have been created in "six days" because of the weird mathmatics in a highly compressed and therefore immensly high gravitational setting.

Take those three things together and the best description comes from Doctor Who as time being a big Timey-Wimey sort of ball. a year is like a day, and a day is like a year because time itself quite frankly is really weird and stupid.

[BDunnell]

I think ultimately that's the answer that many can't cope with, there's no real point to life at all!

I can cope with it, and I have never once worried about it, nor understood why it is even a mild concern.

[schmenke]

Jesus Christ, not another thread on religion!

[Tazio]

I know I'm going to open myself up to scorn and ridicule ... But here goes anyway.

Why must God and evolution be mutually exclusive? When I read the story of Genesis, I see evolution. Granted the timescales are different, but as it says elsewhere in the Bible (sorry don't know exactly where) something like, to God a year is like a day, and a day is like a year. I think that knowing more about science, biology, physics, and the like does not have to lead you away from God. In fact, for me at least, it tends to bring me a bit closer to God. I want to know how he set up the rules governing the universe, it makes me feel a bit closer to him to have an understanding of how things work.

Anyway, that's what I think. I'm guessing that most here will think me silly. But that's ok too.

Chuck I like the way Sagan hadles this subject, and in this short clip he still will only refer to it as a mystery.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeVhkXW6BKY

[MrJan]

I think ultimately that's the answer that many can't cope with, there's no real point to life at all!

It always amazes me that people care about that.

I can see, and understand, the view about some higher being helping evolution along, but I just can't agree with it. To me it just seems like people are desperate for there to be an element of control in everything, that they have an inability to let go and accept that accidents happen. So many of sciences great discoveries have come via accidents or mistakes (penicillin being the first that springs to mind), so why can't we just accept that other things came from accidents? Of course now we have the wonderful retort of 'god put the mould there', which is why discussing religion can be so infuriating :p :

[schmenke]

... So many of sciences great discoveries have come via accidents or mistakes (penicillin being the first that springs to mind), so why can't we just accept that other things came from accidents? ...

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5294/5555301687_f02f2a493d.jpg

[Tazio]

I think ultimately that's the answer that many can't cope with, there's no real point to life at all!

With one profound exception, psychologists have handled it one way and religion another.
We are validated by existentialism. That is even if we are doing nothing we are at least conscious that that nothing is something. If you can lie down at night and pass through the gate to slumber you are a valid Homo Sapien, and it really doesn't matter if we ruminate about ridiculous concepts.
Once you start to think, you are! :crazy:
That is good enough for me! :)

[chuck34]

Not really that lucky. There are billions of stars in each of billions of galaxies. It would be remarkable if there wasn't life on some of them.

Honestly the more I've looked into it (granted I'm no expert), I think that the circumstances surrounding the evolution of life on this planet seems to be of quite low probabilty. Now we're getting into the Drake equation and Fermi Paradox. Yikes! High level stuff for a light discussion on religion.

[Retro Formula 1]

Many people that are a lot more intilligent than me have debated this subject ad-infinitum and still are as polorised in their views as ever.

It basically comes down to a life choice I suppose. Do you take control of your destiny and rule your world or conform to a religious belief that guides you.

Personally, I think, therefore I am. I don't need to have a reason for my existance other than looking in my childs eyes and seeing creation. The bible offers some great guidelines and principles for people but I know my purpose in life without it.

If you choose to do it differently, then it's no skin off my nose and good luck to you.

[Mark]

Honestly the more I've looked into it (granted I'm no expert), I think that the circumstances surrounding the evolution of life on this planet seems to be of quite low probabilty. Now we're getting into the Drake equation and Fermi Paradox. Yikes! High level stuff for a light discussion on religion.

Yes life as evolved on this planet came about because so many different variables just happened to be right. Yet, if you look at the Drake equation then the numbers come out at the tens of thousands of contactable civilisations for this galaxy alone. You could safely assume that the number of planets with only bacterial life (the earth had only bacteria for the vast majority of it's history) will be massively bigger.

[Daniel]

So nearly two-thirds of people do not regard themselves as "religious".....So what? I reckon about 99% of people on this planet do not regard themselves as selfish, ignorant, etc.
Ha, ha, lol!!!!!!

You regard yourself as religious, I don't, any need to try and have a dig at other people who have no issue with you practicing your faith?

[Tazio]

Honestly the more I've looked into it (granted I'm no expert), I think that the circumstances surrounding the evolution of life on this planet seems to be of quite low probabilty. Now we're getting into the Drake equation and Fermi Paradox. Yikes! High level stuff for a light discussion on religion.

The Fermi paradox is really not valid, if there is intelligent life in a reasonably close proximity they are (first of all) not able to send anything faster than the speed of light. Our earliest radio broad casts have most likely not even reached a planet that has beings that could return the distance at something near the speed of light, and that will not get here for at least hundreds of years. Plus judging by what has been broadcasted until just recently, they would avoid us like the plague :laugh:

[Daniel]

Personally, I think, therefore I am. I don't need to have a reason for my existance other than looking in my childs eyes and seeing creation. The bible offers some great guidelines and principles for people but I know my purpose in life without it.

If you choose to do it differently, then it's no skin off my nose and good luck to you.

Completely agree with both of those points.

[Dave B]

So many people hear "life" and assume it would be like Earth. Yet as Mr Alcatraz says, we've only been doing any detectable for about the last 150 years despite the rich variety of life which has existed for billions of years. The fact we've not yet made contact with anything does not mean that there's nothing out there.

[Mark]

So many people hear "life" and assume it would be like Earth. Yet as Mr Alcatraz says, we've only been doing any detectable for about the last 150 years despite the rich variety of life which has existed for billions of years. The fact we've not yet made contact with anything does not mean that there's nothing out there.

We also assume that intelligent life is the normal conclusion of evolution, whereas we could just be an accidental freak of evolution, there's no particular imperative for life to become intelligent.

[chuck34]

Yes life as evolved on this planet came about because so many different variables just happened to be right. Yet, if you look at the Drake equation then the numbers come out at the tens of thousands of contactable civilisations for this galaxy alone. You could safely assume that the number of planets with only bacterial life (the earth had only bacteria for the vast majority of it's history) will be massively bigger.

Ah yes, but the Drake equation is completely unprovable. I'll state Chuck's equation N=R* x fp x ne x C where C=Chuck's variable=0. It's just as provable and valid as Drake's equation.

[chuck34]

We also assume that intelligent life is the normal conclusion of evolution, whereas we could just be an accidental freak of evolution, there's no particular imperative for life to become intelligent.

And if you assume that intelligent life is just a freak accident of evolution doesn't that lend a bit of credence to the "hand of God" theory?

[Mark]

And if you assume that intelligent life is just a freak accident of evolution doesn't that lend a bit of credence to the "hand of God" theory?

No? Why should it?

[Tazio]

And if you assume that intelligent life is just a freak accident of evolution doesn't that lend a bit of credence to the "hand of God" theory?It's my opinion that it does not. Let’s say we evolved from a life form that started in the water. Skip 750 million years give or take 500 million years. It is very understandable that primates were utterly stupid although they had great instincts. Add another 100million years and it’s not that improbable to me that intelligence is something that has to do with the size of a brain. When you are dealing with millions of years becoming conscious bye and bye in that time frame is not that hard to accept for me.

[MrJan]

And if you assume that intelligent life is just a freak accident of evolution doesn't that lend a bit of credence to the "hand of God" theory?

What? Diego Maradona? That was just something he said, he's actually a cheating little ******* :D :p :

[Sonic]

The only deity I believe in is the god of traffic lights, but clearly he hates me! ;)

Side topic; I was listening to a chap a few weeks back who advocated that deep religious belief should be classified as a mental illness. Thoughts?

[Tazio]

The only deity I believe in is the god of traffic lights, but clearly he hates me! ;)

Side topic; I was listening to a chap a few weeks back who advocated that deep religious belief should be classified as a mental illness. Thoughts?

I think that concept is absurd. However
if he had the propensity to constantly bother me with it I think he should be stoned to death ;)

[gadjo_dilo]

I think ultimately that's the answer that many can't cope with, there's no real point to life at all!

Then why we developed that instinct of conservation? If life has no point why do we struggle to survive? If life has no point then what's the point of our forum endless discussions on different issues that may have impact on our lives?
Many laws that govern the Universe are still unknown and the ones we ( do we? ) understand are so perfect to come from nowhere. That's why I think that recent man's claims that he's able to know the rules by himself are rather silly.


You regard yourself as religious, I don't, any need to try and have a dig at other people who have no issue with you practicing your faith?
Typical for you to misunderstand my words. Where did you see I had a dig? I only claim that all these surveys are pointless. To make things more clear: not everything that people say about themselves is necessarily true. There is a lot of gays who are still in the closet, there are still decent people who never admit their gypsy roots, etc.
As for myself being religious...Unlike people who aren't I know that today is a very big holy day. I know that today people should fast from eating meat ( except for fish which today is "untied") , eggs, milk, but unlike people who are religious, I don't. I let you draw the conclusion.

[Daniel]

Typical for you to misunderstand my words. Where did you see I had a dig? I only claim that all these surveys are pointless. To make things more clear: not everything that people say about themselves is necessarily true. There is a lot of gays who are still in the closet, there are still decent people who never admit their gypsy roots, etc.
As for myself being religious...Unlike people who aren't I know that today is a very big holy day. I know that today people should fast from eating meat ( except for fish which today is "untied") , eggs, milk, but unlike people who are religious, I don't. I let you draw the conclusion.

Personally I think things like fasting are geared towards controlling people, probably not the best way of putting it. I went to a Catholic school despite my parents being Christian but not Catholic and myself not really having any faith. In the catholic church it's all, stand up, sit down, stand up, kneel, stand up, sit down, kneel, don't eat meat on this day, give up something for those 40 days etc etc. It all seems a bit geared up towards people being obedient and doing what they're told to do. Perhaps not the the lengths of having someone drinking the poisoned kool-aid or anything but I still get the creeps thinking about it. Lets just say god exists, what does he care whether you don't eat meat on a Friday during easter?

[TheFamousEccles]

I think he said "blessed are the cheese-makers", though I suspect that this would extend to all purveyors of dairy produce.... (with apologies to the Python). Ok, as you were (though I must say that I think this is the greatest line in satirical cinematic history!!!!!!!!!!)

[Mark]

Personally I think things like fasting are geared towards controlling people, probably not the best way of putting it. I went to a Catholic school despite my parents being Christian but not Catholic and myself not really having any faith. In the catholic church it's all, stand up, sit down, stand up, kneel, stand up, sit down, kneel, don't eat meat on this day, give up something for those 40 days etc etc. It all seems a bit geared up towards people being obedient and doing what they're told to do. Perhaps not the the lengths of having someone drinking the poisoned kool-aid or anything but I still get the creeps thinking about it. Lets just say god exists, what does he care whether you don't eat meat on a Friday during easter?

Because in Medieval Europe controlling people was necessary to maintain power.

[airshifter]

Because in Medieval Europe controlling people was necessary to maintain power.

And to some extent control instills discipline. Personally if that "control" (through I don't agree with the use of the word for a normal modern day church) inspires people to do good and not evil, I have a hard time making an argument against it. While I don't think it takes influence and control for all people to know the difference between good and bad, having an influence that teaches good certainly isn't a bad thing.

[Mark]

And to some extent control instills discipline. Personally if that "control" (through I don't agree with the use of the word for a normal modern day church) inspires people to do good and not evil, I have a hard time making an argument against it. While I don't think it takes influence and control for all people to know the difference between good and bad, having an influence that teaches good certainly isn't a bad thing.

It's certainly not true of the modern day Church, at least not in Europe.

Back in the day, at least in England the place was pretty lawless so the local landowers needed to keep the peasants in line, and the threat of going to hell was a good motivator to keep the lords in power and the peasants working hard. Not forgetting the Church was also a tax collector!

This, of course, doesn't take anything away from the validity or otherwise of the Christian faith, but it can explain why it has remained so popular for so long.

[gadjo_dilo]

Personally I think things like fasting are geared towards controlling people, probably not the best way of putting it. I went to a Catholic school despite my parents being Christian but not Catholic and myself not really having any faith. In the catholic church it's all, stand up, sit down, stand up, kneel, stand up, sit down, kneel, don't eat meat on this day, give up something for those 40 days etc etc. It all seems a bit geared up towards people being obedient and doing what they're told to do. Perhaps not the the lengths of having someone drinking the poisoned kool-aid or anything but I still get the creeps thinking about it. Lets just say god exists, what does he care whether you don't eat meat on a Friday during easter?
Ha! Meat on a Friday during Easter....
Fasting before Easter means 7 weeks of abstination from any animal product, alcohool, bad thoughts, bad behaviour and...some say it's also about sex. I don't think it's God's will but man's exercise of sober, introspection, self analysis, kindness, patience, forgiveness, reconcilation with himself and with the others. To be honest I always fast the last week before Easter. Not for a religious reason ( and I don't confess myself to the priest and don't take the eucharist ) but as a bet with myself, a try to forbear from instinctual life and to feel better than an ordinary animal. If I can do it than I feel people can rely on me.

I can't see how people can be controlled by fast but I think the alimentary fast is very good for health. In this part of the world we are great pork eaters esp. in the long cold winters. It helps the detoxification of our bodies in the spring and prepare ourselves for the Easter meal. From what I read on the forum the westerners see Easter as a period of eating chocolate eggs. A decent orthodox Easter meal is a pantagruelic one and lasts for a few days. Without some abstination before it we would fill up the hospitals. Not to mention how good the food becomes after a period of missing it..... :laugh:

[BDunnell]

It's certainly not true of the modern day Church, at least not in Europe.

Back in the day, at least in England the place was pretty lawless so the local landowers needed to keep the peasants in line, and the threat of going to hell was a good motivator to keep the lords in power and the peasants working hard. Not forgetting the Church was also a tax collector!

This, of course, doesn't take anything away from the validity or otherwise of the Christian faith, but it can explain why it has remained so popular for so long.

And, rather more mundanely, there's the fact that a lot of people do just keep to the same old routine, day after day, week after week, year after year. This includes their beliefs.

[wedge]

And yet still people write a load of crap like 'Jedi' or whatever when filling in the census forms, rather than 'Nothing' or 'Atheist'.

I'm part of a group who put down 'Muslim' to pi55 off the Daily Mail readers

[BDunnell]

I'm part of a group who put down 'Muslim' to pi55 off the Daily Mail readers

Splendid.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by chuck34

And if you assume that intelligent life is just a freak accident of evolution doesn't that lend a bit of credence to the "hand of God" theory?

No? Why should it?

It's my opinion that it does not. Let’s say we evolved from a life form that started in the water. Skip 750 million years give or take 500 million years. It is very understandable that primates were utterly stupid although they had great instincts. Add another 100million years and it’s not that improbable to me that intelligence is something that has to do with the size of a brain. When you are dealing with millions of years becoming conscious bye and bye in that time frame is not that hard to accept for me.

To any who would mock others who believe in God, yet accept the theory that life is an accident, that came from nothing- the word moronic is not even strong enough to describe such hypocrites.

Why should instints exist, formed from what?

Definition of INSTINCT
1
: a natural or inherent aptitude, impulse, or capacity <had an instinct for the right word>
2
a : a largely inheritable and unalterable tendency of an organism to make a complex and specific response to environmental stimuli without involving reason

Instincts are not created by an organism, they are inherited. Now tell what they were inherited from?

Why did they have a brain. If there was no preexisting inheritance, why should they a brain.
By accident?
That explanation ranks rught up there with pixie dust.

[gloomyDAY]

Bob, did you ever go to Sunday school? That's reason alone not to be religious, but I see how that's mutually exclusive from the existence of God.

The stories in those pop-up books were funny and I loved how Eve always had a risqué leaf covering her lady parts. What made me laugh even more was when I picked up The Bible as an adult and read the Book of Genesis, and eventually the Old Testament. I learned from The Bible that God is a being that only loves conditionally, is a ravenous jealous maniac, a bigger troll than George Bush during the warrant-less surveillance fiasco, and will drive a person to assassinate its own child to prove his/her faith. I believe that if God exists, then God must be a woman.

[donKey jote]

Then why we developed that instinct of conservation? If life has no point why do we struggle to survive?

Simple evolution... ever heard of the Darwin awards ? :p

Religion, the notion of supernatural beings, gods or an afterlife are all products of evolution and have helped mankind sapiens survive as a species for tens of thousands of years.
It's only in the last couple of centuries that it is becoming unnecessary, enlightenment and all that :)

[Bob Riebe]

Simple evolution... ever heard of the Darwin awards ? :p

Religion, the notion of supernatural beings, gods or an afterlife are all products of evolution ....
By what reasoning would they come to exist?

Why would they be needed, if no notions pre-existed as man came from nothing; therefore the need for such notions would not exist.

[markabilly]

The Fermi paradox is really not valid, if there is intelligent life in a reasonably close proximity they are (first of all) not able to send anything faster than the speed of light. Our earliest radio broad casts have most likely not even reached a planet that has beings that could return the distance at something near the speed of light, and that will not get here for at least hundreds of years. Plus judging by what has been broadcasted until just recently, they would avoid us like the plague :laugh:

You mean they might start getting tweets from Charlie Sheen, about "winning" and "Adonis DNA", that would inspire them to overcome good sense and logic they might otherwise have, and pay us a look-see???

I would agree except i would leave out the part about "until just recently"

[markabilly]

Simple evolution... ever heard of the Darwin awards ? :p

Religion, the notion of supernatural beings, gods or an afterlife are all products of evolution and have helped mankind sapiens survive as a species for tens of thousands of years.
It's only in the last couple of centuries that it is becoming unnecessary, enlightenment and all that :)

yeah you, Mark, Daniel and the rest are all saying "I am an atheist, and there is no heaven...."

but at night, when alone and trying to be sleeping in your bed, each of you are praying that there is no hell!!
yeah, sure try to deny it......but you can not fool ole markabilly






Well sweeties, there is a hell, and Donkey knows it quite well; it is being with donkey's old lady..... :(

[donKey jote]

at least my missus is still with me...
heaven was getting rid of yours :laugh: :p

[markabilly]

at least my missus is still with me...
heaven was getting rid of yours :laugh: :p

Once again, you need to show more respect for your momma



But on a more serial note, we all need some explanation to sleep at night. Just think of how infinite is the universe, and explain it. It is beyond comprehension, reminding me of Donkey's old lady in both mystery and weight

[donKey jote]

your missus on the other hand is a space-time singularity... just keep well away from her event horizon, or you might get sucked into the black hole :eek: :dozey: :p

[F1boat]

That's interesting, but I am curious to find what is the percentage of people who believe in some force of higher power and are not members of any particular religious group. I think that their opinion might be closer to the truth than the one of hardcore religious people or atheists - that there are unexplained phenomenons, which can not be comprehended by the human mind and cause the appearances of religions, which try to explain them and ruin all.

[Hondo]

If you take take the two thirds that claim to not be religious and stuff a double barrel shotgun in their face and cock the hammers, I'll bet two thirds of them will say "Oh Jesus..." or some similar religious uttering.

[BDunnell]

If you take take the two thirds that claim to not be religious and stuff a double barrel shotgun in their face and cock the hammers, I'll bet two thirds of them will say "Oh Jesus..." or some similar religious uttering.

Oh, there are many ways in which religion has influenced our behaviour, our culture, our language and so on, but I don't think it has any significance in terms of suggesting that the non-believers who have themselves been affected (for want of a better word) by these influences are in any sense less than genuine in their lack of belief.

[markabilly]

If you take take the two thirds that claim to not be religious and stuff a double barrel shotgun in their face and cock the hammers, I'll bet two thirds of them will say "Oh Jesus..." or some similar religious uttering.

Not me, I would say "But Bob, my name is not Dunnel....there he is, right behind you"

[GridGirl]

I was christened a Methodist and was educated in Church of England primary and secondary schools. Attending my particular religious school also meant that taking a G.C.S.E in Religious Education was compulsory. We has religious teachings every day even if it was only through morning assembly and we often had the local CofE victar attend or we'd go to his church.

After I left school I haven't bothered with Christianity and class myself to be non religious. A couple of years ago my dad was quite seriously ill with heart failure. On one particular day the doctors would have opened him up in the resuscitation room of the accident and emergency department and manually massaged his heart if it would have stopped for a fourth time. The only reason he lived was because when his heart stopped the first time that day he just happened to be sitting in the eye department of the hospital awaiting a check up after having a cataract operation some weeks earlier. Sometime after all the drama had subsided I sat and thought about religion. I think that if at any point in my life I was going to turn to God and maybe become a 'believer' as they say I would have done it then. At no stage did I think of God or want to pray to God. I personally don't put my family's good fortune down any higher power or circumstance other than being extremely lucky but I can see how some religious people may interpret the situation a different way. I can honestly say that I don't think that I will become religious in the future because if I was going to find God, I really think I would have found it (or him) by now. :)

I would be interest to know the thoughts of those surveyed on marriage and whether they were ever married in a Church. Is marriage a religious act, an sign of commitment, a legal act or a mixture of all?

[Mark]

There's nothing religious about marriage IMO it's a commitment made to each other and you don't need a higher power legal or spiritual to enforce that. Which is why we got married in a pub :D

[Daniel]

There's nothing religious about marriage IMO it's a commitment made to each other and you don't need a higher power legal or spiritual to enforce that. Which is why we got married in a pub :D

I was just thinking today that it was your stag do the day before the GP last year :p

[Mark]

So it was! I remember it well :D

[Daniel]

So it was! I remember it well :D

Yes that was the problem :p

[markabilly]

There's nothing religious about marriage IMO it's a commitment made to each other and you don't need a higher power legal or spiritual to enforce that. Which is why we got married in a pub :D

what do you mean??

I have met Jesus on a number of occaisions in a pub or a "speak easy" as they call them over here.




(actually the reason that they call them a speak easy, is cause you need to speak real easy and be politie or else you defintely will be seeing, for real, either jesus or satan)

[GridGirl]

I was thinking about this thread and the people that I know that are or have actively practised Christianity. Friends of mine that I instinctively thought of as people that actively practise the Christian faith have done so because they are getting married in a church in the future or have previous got married in a church. Those that have previously got married seem to cease active participation in the church in the weeks and months after the wedding. Call me cinical but in a couple of cases those friends magically resumed church participation in the run up to their childrens christenings. Obviously whether you actively participate in religion has no real correlation as to whether you are religious or with the extent that you believe but sometimes I just get the impression that participation in the Christian church is sometimes influenced by what you are going to receive back from the church.

[BDunnell]

There's nothing religious about marriage IMO it's a commitment made to each other and you don't need a higher power legal or spiritual to enforce that.

Well, it can be religious if those involved so desire.