The Sponsorship Issue - and doing our bit

[patnicholls]

This thread follows from the Ilmor pull-out issue in a way, but it's been on the horizon for a while.

MotoGP is booming in terms of popularity. Audiences are up, well, everywhere. We've edged closer to the ever-elusive mainstream but we've still got our credibility. I wrote a thread on the old forum about the mainstream and getting there - well maybe we're not fully there but we've started to get close. People at work nowadays are just as eager to talk about the MotoGP as the F1 race, and in terms of enthusiasm they're keener on how good the racing was. Excellent!

(a good article is here: http://www.crash.net/feature_view~cid~6~id~10832~pid~0.htm)

BUT - there's still a problem.

Money.

This week the Ilmor team dropped off the grid for the time being. Team KR, who had an excellent season last year, were looking a bit shaky for this season. Gresini, the top non-factory team, don't look to have a major sponsor. Sito Pons' team have also dropped out despite being one of the best teams of the past few years. The Yamaha Factory squad were uncertain of their sponsor for some time.

How can this be?

We're not dealing with a series past its prime or one that's losing fans - we're gaining everywhere. The audience that our sport is reaching is bigger than ever before and still growing. Companies should want to put their brand on a bike that's going to be seen all over the world - why not? It would be great promotion.

It's clear that the growth of the series does push costs up, necessarily. Fair enough.

Maybe the problem is that some of the teams are actually very small organisations. Ilmor Engineering has around 60 employees in total, including their IndyCar engine program (they supply the entire field there). That's really a tiny amount. The company I work for has about 60 people in it too - and since I've worked at a much bigger place [about 500] it shows what a small number 60 is. We don't have a personel department as such, one guy does the IT, three do the accounts, etc... really small numbers of people doing some important things.

Ilmor have 60 people, which includes the MotoGP team, plus the IndyCar engine guys. I'm guessing Ilmor's marketing and sponsorship department is not a massive operation within that number. Most of them are generally busy engineering the 160 IndyCar wins [including 12 Indy 500s] and in the past the two Formula One World titles [Mika Hakkinen's McLaren-Mercedes in 1998/99], and nowadays the bikes. As an organisation they've been an engine supplier by trade - not a whole team. Getting sponsorship is probably pretty new to them.

As another useful number, the website for SSM Aprilia (the Polaris World 125cc squad) lists all the team members - all 15 of them, including the two riders Pasini and Olive. There are some small operations out there.

So - as suggested elsewhere - let's do our bit. Let's be positive and pro-active, do some writing and try and see if we can find some companies who might want to sponsor Ilmor and get them back on the grid.

Who's in?

[maxu05]

I think there are numerous companies here in China that have the cash to sponsor a team like Ilmor. If a Chinese company were to sponsor them, it would raise the profile of Motogp in what is the biggest motorcycle market in the world. If the rumours that the 125's and 250's will become 250 and 450 4 strokes in the near future, that would be great for exposure here in China. The max engine capacity for bikes here is 250cc, so at least then, the average Chinese viewer would be able to relate to the bikes being raced. It would also open up a new market for 250cc race replica's here, as there is bugger all on the market that looks like a hot bike. I ocassionally see an old CBR250RR getting around, but these usually come via Hong Kong. I am in, but I don't know what I could do, perhaps I could send some emails to some of the bike manufacturers here, or some of the bigger names in the manufacturing industry. See what I can do.

[edlalu]

I hate to point this out, but part of the problem is execution by the teams themsevles. I was flipping through one of the motorcycle mags I subscribe to and there was two page add for KR's exhaust systems. I thought "Hmmm? good fit my CBR?" So I jumped to thier website. Underconstruction. I heard about Ilmor's withdrawl via MotoGP.com so I tried to get info via the Ilmor website, but the MotoGP info is so limited its almost a shame. If I could by tshirts or posters or any other swag for the smaller independant teams I would, but they just don't make it easy. Sure I can get just about anything under the sun with "46" on it, but does the guy really need more money from merchandising?? Sure a tshirt sale isn't going to buy a full tank of race fuel for a GP machine, but every little bit counts. If I can't get directly to the team and drop some coin on them I am stuck in the advertising loop. Sure Marlboro dumps cash on Ducati but I ain't taking up smoking! I like to put my money where it counts.

[ChrisS]

Though it may sound like a good idea I honestly cant see how its possible for us fans to help get sponsorship for MotoGP teams. I mean this isnt sponsoring a KART team, a company wont spent the money required for MotoGP on a suggestion of an employee

There are companies out there that are dedicated to marketing and finding and arranging sponsorship deals, if they cant find anything I doubt we will

Oh, and if I knew of a company that was willing to spent the millions required to run a MotoGP team on my suggestions I wouldn't give the money to any of the teams, I would go find Sito Pons or Harald Eckl or Peter Clifford or someone and I would setup a team with them, I would provide sponsorship they would provide technical expertise etc... and I would get to be a team boss :D :D

[leopard]

Motogp and more categories of motor sports are sport for consumption people around the world, multi-national company are the most suitable party to marketing their product to keep their existing market-place maintained and more than it to muscle their product in the new area.

Marlboro is the only one the most consistent product playing motor sport in the last two decades I could remember. This might not a good choice to create image a team like Ferrari or Ducati has such strong relationship with a brand of tobacco, but this isn’t too bad either considering there are no other products yet have such level thick commitment to support motorsport continuity. The ban of tobacco issue didn’t make them demoted and leave motorsport as many their competitor has been doing recently.
Long before the tobacco restriction sounded they have started playing smartly, in many occasion they only appear with their character of color scheme in creating image without having to write the name of product on the car or bike.

I can't deny that here tobacco is the main sponsor of any big event of motorsport, soccer, music concert or anything that mostly company doesn’t want to spend their money speculatively. I was about to have no coverage watching F-1 if only the broadcast license was taken by a tobacco product from a big company like Toyota in long time previously backed up this program.

Motogp and motorsport in general if we do mind to call it as unpopular sport it just has only small portion of viewer comparing to soccer. To stay this crisis like this way I don’t think would be good for motogp future.

What contribution we can give to help this crisis out? Our voice or our product might help nothing to motogp future, but we can start this thing from ourselves from every little thing.

In many occasion I keep trying to introduce people around me here that motogp or motorsport will give you exciting and passion more than soccer. A small case but effective to make friends in with their curiosity is keeping motogp attribute wore wherever you go.

I have new Yamaha Fiat now :)

[patnicholls]

OK, the response to this thread hasn't been amazing, I'll admit :p

But, while we're not professionals or anything, we can't do any harm by having a go. You never know, a home-grown attitude might just work. t might seem more genuine.

There are companies that do this stuff, of course there are - but when all's said and done it still relies on one person asking another if they or their company will put some money into a team or rider. And, for what it's worth - Dorna are holding a sponsorship summit in April as they are aware of the current difficulties for some teams. So it's worth a try.

MotoGP and Superbikes aren't minor-league sports by any means - but the level of knowledge of them compared to Formula One is tiny to many people. That means there is probably a pool of untapped sponsors out there who just aren't aware of it as a marketing opportunity. And sponsorship must be worth a punt, otherwise companies wouldn't do it. In this day and age with hundred of TV channels, I'm more likely to see something advertised supporting a sporting event than during an ad break, as I turn over to - for instance - one of the music channels on an ad break.

The other point is that sport doesn't have to exist in a vacuum. 99% of the people who watch some sport will never set foot on a forum to discuss it or feedback on it in any way - indeed for anything except motor racing, that's the same for me. But in a small way, forums like this can have some effect on the series or league they represent. The Champ Car series - which has had some, er, 'management woes' in the past decade, was saved from total extinction in part due to a massive level of internet-based support for the series that the guys with money wanted to harness.

MotoGP and Superbikes don't face anything like those problems - indeed, things are pretty positive for both right now - but fans of the sport don't have to sit back and do nothing. All the money and sponsorship wouldn't have come into the sport in the first place if there weren't people watching and supporting it to make it worthwhile!

Maybe you're not bothered about there being two less bikes on the grid. I am. And we're not powerless.

All I'm suggesting we do is write a few emails and letters, nothing enormous. If it doesn't work, never mind. If something did come of it, it'd be great.

[fatman]

I really want to stop myself from from writing "lets sell our kidneys" in bold letters but I just can't

Lets sell our kidneys!

All joking aside. Frankly I think it would be easier to sell MotoGP and WSBK to more sponsors if they had nothing to do with motorcycles.

I'm sure its different all over the world, but where I'm from motorcycles and anything to do with them is and always will be on the fringe of popular culture. People who ride motorcycles are bandits, outlaws and renegades. At least thats how the average cage riding marketing dweeb views it.

Another thing to consider is that while the dollars needed to sponsor a motorcycle team are minimal when compared to F1 or other sports, they are still real dollars. A million dollars invested well in more standard forms of advertising (print or the internet) will bring more return than the same spent sponsoring anything. Companies who sponsor sports teams have to be big enough to require a large scale brand management strategy.

Personally if I thought I could do something to help awareness I would. Frankly I don't know the first place where to send an email.

[edlalu]

So heres a question: What does it cost? What is the season's budget for a factory team?

I've been discussing moneys spent on two other forums. Some NASCAR teams have 18 cars in thier stable for ONE driver at $135,000 a piece.

Formula1 teams spend anywhere up to $400 million. YIKES!

[leopard]

OK, the response to this thread hasn't been amazing, I'll admit :p .

You might expect too much :D

It isn't easy to response this sort discussion, having some member thought in this thread i'd say it's good enough




All I'm suggesting we do is write a few emails and letters, nothing enormous. If it doesn't work, never mind. If something did come of it, it'd be great.
I twice wrote email to GlobalTV (broadcast license holder of MTVAsia in Indonesia) to stay broadcasting Superbike in the right manner, they had Suzuki behind the program and usually don't play it live.
When Suzuki money can go only for recorded race, or badly cut the program off because they feel it wasn't effective in selling their product, what will sort of my email work for?
Alright, at least I have performed an effort to superbike/motogp and motorsporpot future in general.

I'd suggest motogp insider not to be fastidious towards any sponsors eagerly support with they money.
Tobacco and Telecommunication Company I think have the big source of money for it. More than half of men smoking and mobile telecommunication is now become one of public consumptions.

Pons left, Ilmor withdraws soon, Gressini remains without sponsor, who-else? :(

[ChrisS]

So heres a question: What does it cost? What is the season's budget for a factory team?

I've been discussing moneys spent on two other forums. Some NASCAR teams have 18 cars in thier stable for ONE driver at $135,000 a piece.

Formula1 teams spend anywhere up to $400 million. YIKES!

MotoGP costs are not straight forward. Some teams have departments dedicated in developing their bikes, others develop the bikes themselves, others lease their bikes.

The top factory teams (Repsol, Yamaha, Ducati) probably need about $25mil per season as a team.

The R&D of the bike however probably costs a lot more and is done by the racing department of their respective companies (HRC, Yamaha Racing, Ducati Corse). Kawasaki are also doing the same thing this season by creating Kawasaki Motors Racing (KMR) that operates the MotoGP team and other potential racing activities (Kawasaki’s equivalent to Honda’s HRC). I’m not sure Suzuki has such a department.

For satellite teams to lease a bike for a season it costs somewhere between $3 and $4mil. Michelin tyres cost more than $1mil (don’t know about Bridgestone) add rider wages, personnel, traveling and hospitality and the costs rice.

Team KR leases engines but develops its own chassis and Ilmor develops the entire bike so in addition to the team cost they also have R&D costs.

Rider wages also differ a lot from the top to the bottom. Rossi is by far the best paid rider. He makes about $15mil a year in salaries from Yamaha. Other top riders like Capirossi, Hayden , Melandri make between $3-5 mil while the lowest paid riders probably earn less than $500k

Another paradox about MotoGP is that the teams are struggling to find sponsors and at the same time the (Japanese) manufacturers are turning sponsors away. The Japanese say that their costs in developing and racing these MotoGP bikes are so great that $15 to $20mil sponsorship deals are “like tips.” Unfortunately the smaller teams are also affected by this.

Yamaha turned down $20mil to have Gauloises as title sponsor for Rossi’s bike and as a result Tech3-Yamaha also lost Fortuna.

HRC turned down $15mil to have Camel as title sponsor for Honda Pons because they didn’t want Max Biaggi to ride their bike, as a result Pons had to drop out of MotoGP.

Telefónica-Movistar also took their $15mil and left MotoGP and 250cc because HRC signed their rider Dani Pedrosa to the Repsol Honda team, as a result Gresini Honda lost its title sponsor

[Kropotkin]

Though it may sound like a good idea I honestly cant see how its possible for us fans to help get sponsorship for MotoGP teams. I mean this isnt sponsoring a KART team, a company wont spent the money required for MotoGP on a suggestion of an employee


First of all, I think this is a fantastic initiative. It's easy to feel helpless about the entire sponsorship situation, but the truth is, most of us work for companies, and most of those companies are very keen to put their brand and product in front of potential customers.

At both the last two companies I have worked for, I have tried to raise interest in sponsoring motorcycle racing. It has not yet provided actual funds for racers, but it has raised awareness of motorcycle racing within the marketing department and made them aware of the possibilities. I have plenty of confidence that something might actually come of this by next year.

Now, you are right to say that a company won't just invest $25 million just because an employee asks them to. But once they've been made aware of the sport, its popularity, and its importance in certain key markets, they could well start to look into it properly. They will at least be aware of its existence, and could start to take motorcycle racing seriously as a useful marketing tool. They may first try their hand in World Superbikes, or BSB, or AMA, before moving up. They may decide that motocross or Dakar is a more interesting avenue for their investment, and a more affordable starting point.

I think that there is little chance that anything we do here on this board will save Ilmor for the rest of the season. However, what we can do is raise awareness in the marketing department and in the company board about the popularity of motorcycle racing, and though that is unlikely to pay off this year, there is a fair chance that a couple of years down the road, it could well start to generate real results.

[patnicholls]

As for amounts required for sponsorship, it's hard to give a definitive answer as Chris mentioned.

But I do have an article from now-defunct magazine MCN Sport which gives some rough numbers for WSB and BSB. The article dates from Summer 2003 and was written with the aid of Neil Hodgson and James Toseland's manager Roger Burnett. So the numbers will be referring to top-end of the grid teams.

The numbers given were:

Main title sponsor: WSB £1.5M, BSB £0.5M
Principal sponsor: WSB £0.5M, BSB £250k
Personal sponsors: WSB £20-50k, BSB £5-15k
Associate sponsor: WSB £100k, BSB £50k
Minor sponsor: WSB £50k, BSB £20k

Which give a total for WSB of £2.2M (UK pounds) (= $4.4m USD = $5.5m AusD)
Or £835k for BSB (=$1.7m USD = $2m Aus D).

As I say, I reckon that's for top of the grid teams, and the article is accompanied by a pic for Neil's Fila Ducati. MotoGP will be more but certainly nowhere near F1 standards.

Edit: there's a possibility the WSB number may have decreased since the control tyre rule came in in 2004...

[Kropotkin]

More info, from there sources I have been collecting, all on Speed:

http://www.speedtv.com/commentary/20718/
http://www.speedtv.com/commentary/20067/
http://www.speedtv.com/commentary/19974/



As a result of information released recently regarding the collapse of the KTM-Team Roberts alliance in MotoGP, we have learned that KTM paid Michelin something like $55,000 per race to supply tires to the one-rider Roberts team, meaning, with testing included, a million dollar tire bill that would double with a two-rider team.

By comparison the cost of a full season of tires in World Superbike is reported by team owners to be around $50,000.

But the lease price of a factory MotoGP bike for a season is between 1.5 and 2 million dollars depending on the brand and the spec.

According to all team owners I have spoken to in World Superbike a competitive Japanese four cylinder machine can be built for well under $100,000 dollars. (The Yamada R1 that Ivan Silva rode to ninth and tenth in Valencia, for example, is estimated by his team to be worth a mere 40,000 Euros.)

Carlo Fioranni, ex-director of the Repsol Honda MotoGP team and now responsible for coordinating Honda Europe’s efforts in World Superbike told me recently that running a top World Superbike team for a season, including bikes, riders and mechanics salaries, travel etc. would cost between 2 and 2.5 million dollars. Private teams capable of running top ten are able to cover the entire season for under a third of that.

By comparison the yearly costs of MotoGP are somewhere between 30 and 40 times greater. According to a report published on MotoGP by the British magazine Business F1 “the works teams appear to be spending around US$65-US$70 million on their teams. The independent privateers who lease works technology spend between US$17-US$25 million.

[ChrisS]

these are also good "The Idiots’ Guide to MotoGP" (parts I-IV) by Dennis Noyes

http://www.speedtv.com/articles/moto/motogp/21383/
http://www.speedtv.com/articles/moto/motogp/21389/
http://www.speedtv.com/articles/moto/motogp/21410/
http://www.speedtv.com/articles/moto/motogp/21461/

They talk about sponsorship issues in MotoGP, interestingly though some of the $ amounts seem to differ in the articles I posted and in the articles Kropotkin posted even though they are written by the same guy.

ie.

But the lease price of a factory MotoGP bike for a season is between 1.5 and 2 million dollars depending on the brand and the spec.


the days of the $800,000 to 1.2 million dollar lease have given way to a price tag of somewhere between 3 and 3.5 million (depending upon the level of machine and the amount of spares and maintenance included) for a couple of RC211V for a single rider.

[NinjaMaster]

This has turned into a very interested thread Pat, onya buddy. :up:
The guesstimate costs as posted by Pat and Kropotkin are certainly interesting. I remember during the late 90's reading about the value of a superbike versus a 500 GP machine and the top superbikes were worth around $100,000 against the GP bikes at around $1-1.5 mil. This didn't include total running costs however.
I see that the quote of Dennis Noyes mentions what team KR spend on tires, but do the factory teams have to spend like that or are their tire suppliers sponsors of them?
As for helping the sponsorship issue, I'll pass the hat around at work and see if I can't drum up some support for Ilmor. :)

[ChrisS]

FG Group's website has a video about world superbike that is aimed to potential sponsors

http://www.gruppofg.com/eng/main.html then go to FGSport and then Superbike

also Team Foggy Racing website has 3 pdf's for download (one for MotoGP one for WSBK and one for BSB) with info about Foggy, the team and the series and the benefits of sponsoring the team

[Kropotkin]

They talk about sponsorship issues in MotoGP, interestingly though some of the $ amounts seem to differ in the articles I posted and in the articles Kropotkin posted even though they are written by the same guy.


That's mostly because they were written at different times. If I recall correctly, leasing an old 500 used to cost in the region of $1 million a year, and leasing an old 990 cost in the region of $3-5 million a year, but don't quote me on exactly where I got those figures.

[ChrisS]

That's mostly because they were written at different times. If I recall correctly, leasing an old 500 used to cost in the region of $1 million a year, and leasing an old 990 cost in the region of $3-5 million a year, but don't quote me on exactly where I got those figures.

They were written less than 3 months apart, its probably a mistake by the writer.

The quote I posted above says just that. $800,000 to 1.2 million dollar in the 500cc 3 to 3.5 million for MotoGP

[Kropotkin]

Great work of collecting all this info. Very useful background.

[T-D]

on the official site, they interview kr, sr. about the new sponsorship package they are running this weekend. he states that they worked on the deal for a year and a half beore securing a 3 to 4 race package and that the value of motogp to sponsors is at is peak right now, which is why he finds it odd that it is so dificult to find soponsors.

[The Phantom]

The internet is an amazing tool : )

Just came across this:

The Benefits of Sponsoring Success: An Analysis of the Relationship Between Television Exposure and the Position of the Motorcycle Rider.

http://www.ausport.gov.au/fulltext/1998/cjsm/v2n2/arthur22.htm

It's a complex and extremely interesting analysis, and would be of great value to any potential sponsor of the sport.

[leopard]

The analysis isn't only aimed at benefiting sportbike to induce money from sponsor gush out for generous serving of sport to all people involved, the rider, and its long term continuity, but that mutually partnership will be also profiting the sponsor to gain larger market and of course a remarkable margin.

The most recognisable of the sponsored bikes were the Castrol Hondas (WSC), Team Kawasaki (WSC), Lucky Strike Suzukis (FIM) and the Repsol Hondas.

The whole content of the article is basically I would 99% agree, except something it didn't mention any recognizable sponsor-bike linkage of Yamaha. In case any possibility of uncertainty that sponsor used for different bike other than Yamaha such as: Ducati Marlboro, Honda Fortuna, and Honda Camel, I didn’t see they have been using Gauloises other than Yamaha, if only Yamaha Fiat isn't quite familiar yet :)

[ChrisS]

the journal was written in 1998 thats why there is no mention of Gauloises Yamaha, with Rossi's popularity if the journal was written in the 04 or 05 I'm sure Gauloises Yamaha would be the most recognizable bike.

[leopard]

Actually, the journal has backed up by sufficient references, it would become more trusted source if only mentioning the date of when it published, or else I can't read the date because it's written somewhere off beat.

If it's written once upon a time in 1998, i don't think the biggest hit Yamaha Marlboro would be easily overlooked, Ducati Marlboro came long time after the journal written, 2002 if i could remember well.

Plus, I couldn't see Kawasaki that has been never working with big sponsor deserved that place to be mentioned alongside Repsol and Lucky Strike in term of sponsorship issue.

In all, a decent journal, playing a lot of figure of speech, would be perfect if Yamaha dispute could be well accommodated and clarified.

[ChrisS]

Was Marlboro sponsoring Yamaha in 1998? I think they moved along with Kenny Roberts to Modenas and they were also sponsoring Biaggi's Honda

[patnicholls]

Today there was another announcement about a new sponsor for Team Roberts - they've picked up two or three new ones since the start of the season.

So it can be done! :D

[ChrisS]

if you also visit the f1 forum you may have seen this, spyker had an interesting idea on trying to sell the space on their F1 car, auction it on ebay

http://members.ebay.nl/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewUserPage&userid=spykerf1#

[leopard]

Was Marlboro sponsoring Yamaha in 1998? I think they moved along with Kenny Roberts to Modenas and they were also sponsoring Biaggi's Honda

I was referring to early 1990, I didn't know that it's written specifically for 1998 :)

[leopard]

Is it Top 1, California based oil manufacturer, the new team Roberts partner?

This is a brand that I am familiar with better than the rest world synthetic oil manufacturers. They are incessantly to introduce synthetic oil into country that initially produces and uses mineral oil.

Good news, can’t wait how they unveil their color on Roberts bike.

[patnicholls]

What now interests me is that we have some info on total budgets for the top end of things, but no idea of how things drop off as we go down the classes and grid.

I ask that because I notice articles like this one about the Jentin Yamaha team in BSB (who had an excellent Brands Hatch meeting):

http://www.crash.net/news_View~cid~18~id~146096.htm

And wonder what kind of budget is being talked about there. That sort of thing could be a bit more realistic for people like us to help out with than finding sponsors for Ilmor or such like.

[ChrisS]

there was a Q&A with Colin Wright on Airwaves Ducati's website a few months ago and he said that the running cost for a season is £1.5mil. Rizla and HM Plant must be about the same, maybe more, the bikes themselves cost £100,000-£200,000 each (when Shane Byrne's 2 GSX-Rs were stolen last season Rizla valued them in excess of £100,000 each)

found the Q&A, question 13 is about the costs also question 16 is about how they go about getting a sponsor
http://www.airwaves-ducati.co.uk/news.html?news=164&archive=yes

On the other side of the BSB grid privateer James Buckingham has a £100,000 season budget
http://www.devon24.co.uk/search/story.aspx?brand=NDGonline&category=SportGeneric&itemid=DEED04%20Apr%202007%2011:32:39:823&tBrand=NDGonline&tCategory=search

I wasnt able to find anything for the teams in between

[NinjaMaster]

Interesting article about a MotoGP summit to try nut the sponsorship issue out.

http://www.crash.net/news_view~cid~0~id~146471.htm

Makes sense to me. If they want to portray themselves as at a high level of professionalism to warrant the big bucks, and they are competing against the likes of F1 for that sponsorship cash, then they have to rival F1's professionalism and leave the warm and fuzzy paddock to WSB.