Friday Practice @ Oz - The flapping wings will be tested.

[gloomyDAY]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/89955

This sounds more ridiculous every time I read it.

The flappy wings will only work in a certain part of the track, at a certain time, under certain procedural annotations, which has to be conducted by the driver, via a switch, while using KERS, without trying to run into the car in front, by only being 1.3 seconds behind, that will then be shown on the television screen so fans are NOT confused, then navigating a full GP course, and while trying to overtake.

No. Not confusing at all.

[ArrowsFA1]

It's all so contrived: "activation in the 600-metre overtaking zone" :rolleyes: The whole circuit is the "overtaking zone". Drivers plan their moves in advance and "set up" the driver ahead for a pass perhaps many laps in advance. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. Or at least they used to.

Now we have an overtaking zone marked by painted lines on the circuit and a rear wing which can be adjusted if the cars are close enough together, all of which is monitored by the FIA. Oh, and there's also KERS to give that added bit of boost.

They're all just gimmicks which just might be fun features in a racing game but it's not F1 Grand Prix motor racing.

Sort out the effing aerodynamics of the cars, and the circuits :dozey: :mad:

[Dave B]

The two posts above are spot on :up:

[BDunnell]

They are indeed. It's pathetic.

[ShiftingGears]

So embarrassing.

[MrJan]

Yay, it's like FIA Mario Kart.

Edit: Also this is virtually guaranteed to give us exactly the same confusion that the line in Monaco did, it's a bull**** rule that will confuse officials, drivers and fans while probably giving rise to a result that many feel is 'wrong'.

[Tazio]

Silly
I wish I had not ever read this thread

[scaliwag]

Once again I ask (nay plead) for sanity from the F1 powers that be.

All that is needed for spectators to witness true racing with plenty of overtaking is a boost button combined with a strict fuel allotment.

If a driver use's the boost to often his car will run out of fuel.

Regards scaliwag.

[Mark]

Once again I ask (nay plead) for sanity from the F1 powers that be.

All that is needed for spectators to witness true racing with plenty of overtaking is a boost button combined with a strict fuel allotment.

If a driver use's the boost to often his car will run out of fuel.

Regards scaliwag.

You don't need a strict fuel allotment, as teams already start the race 'under fuelled' as they don't want to carry too much weight around. Plus they can already vary the fuel mixture which will give them more power for a time.

[Dave B]

You don't need a strict fuel allotment, as teams already start the race 'under fuelled' as they don't want to carry too much weight around. Plus they can already vary the fuel mixture which will give them more power for a time.
With the added bonus of making one team-mate appear faster... than... you. :p

[schmenke]

So embarrassing.

Indeed.

[UltimateDanGTR]

anyone like to take a bet that we wont see the adjustable wings again in 2012? I know I would.

[V12]

...and hopefully turned off for good after the session. If not before.

How this idea ever came to pass is beyond me. They are usually passed off as one of Bernie/Max's "over the top" ideas as a bargaining chip to get something else. To have it actually go through is a scary precedent.

The worst part is, any criticism from within the paddock seems to be focussing on the safety aspect and that the poor ickle drivers will have too many buttons to press. Nobody seems to be mentioning (well apart from the actual fans!) that the whole thing makes a mockery of the sport.

I'll probably watch in Melbourne (although having said that I'll probably sleep through the live broadcast again due to the ridiculous moving it forward from late Saturday night (well technically Sunday) to 6am on Sunday morning), more as a morbid curiosity more than anything, beyond that I'm not sure.


Once again I ask (nay plead) for sanity from the F1 powers that be.

All that is needed for spectators to witness true racing with plenty of overtaking is a boost button combined with a strict fuel allotment.

If a driver use's the boost to often his car will run out of fuel.

Regards scaliwag.

While I'm usually against things like push to pass buttons that we get/got in Champ Car/IRL, it's actually not a bad idea when put like this. If you say it can be used whenever the hell you like, but yeah with a maximum fuel allowance, more of which gets burned up. In that way isn't not actually that much different to in the old turbo days when a driver would turn the boost up into qualifying mode when he needed to get past someone.

The worst part about the wing is that it can't be used in defence and only within the "overtaking zone" (puke), so it's not exactly a level playing field.

[Garry Walker]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/89955

This sounds more ridiculous every time I read it.

The flappy wings will only work in a certain part of the track, at a certain time, under certain procedural annotations, which has to be conducted by the driver, via a switch, while using KERS, without trying to run into the car in front, by only being 1.3 seconds behind, that will then be shown on the television screen so fans are NOT confused, then navigating a full GP course, and while trying to overtake.

No. Not confusing at all.

It is not so much about being confusing, rather, it is about being very stupid. That such a rule was created is quite mindboggling, because supposedly they are supposed to be quite intelligent fellows running the show, yet they come up with something like this. Truly embarrassing for F1.


It's all so contrived: "activation in the 600-metre overtaking zone" :rolleyes: The whole circuit is the "overtaking zone". Drivers plan their moves in advance and "set up" the driver ahead for a pass perhaps many laps in advance. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. Or at least they used to.

Now we have an overtaking zone marked by painted lines on the circuit and a rear wing which can be adjusted if the cars are close enough together, all of which is monitored by the FIA. Oh, and there's also KERS to give that added bit of boost.

They're all just gimmicks which just might be fun features in a racing game but it's not F1 Grand Prix motor racing.

Sort out the effing aerodynamics of the cars, and the circuits :dozey: :mad:

I can only agree.
If we keep on going like this, soon every driver will have a overtaking quota for every race, where he can ask for the driver in front to let him pass lets say 3 times in every race and the driver in front will have to do it.

Alonso would probably gain the most from this rule because of his previous experiences.

[ioan]

And so they killed F1.
It's effin unbelievable that this moving wings ideas are a result of a cognitive process of the F1 teams technical directors!

[Kevincal]

haha you guys act like its the end of the world, every year there are new rules with some being wacky. you never know it might create a hell of a show. i just got done watching the borefest that was abu dhabi 2010, anything can be better than that. yes now the drivers have almost too much to do, but that means more mistakes which means more action. im all for more action, i dont really care how it comes about. i just hate boring races.

[pino]

never mind

[ArrowsFA1]

...you never know it might create a hell of a show...
It might well do, but if it does it'll be a contrived "show".

The thing that gets me is that this adjustable wing has been introduced as a way to get around the fact that the aero design of the cars prevents, or at least severely limits, overtaking. Rather than getting around something with a gimmick fix the problem.

[scaliwag]

It might well do, but if it does it'll be a contrived "show".

The thing that gets me is that this adjustable wing has been introduced as a way to get around the fact that the aero design of the cars prevents, or at least severely limits, overtaking. Rather than getting around something with a gimmick fix the problem.

Agreed.

[Dave B]

you never know it might create a hell of a show.
WWE puts on "a hell of a show". I feel I need say no more.

[scaliwag]

You don't need a strict fuel allotment, as teams already start the race 'under fuelled' as they don't want to carry too much weight around. Plus they can already vary the fuel mixture which will give them more power for a time.



What I was trying to put forward (in my own inadequate way) was for the powers that be to calculate the fuel allowance for race distance, then increase it by X amount to allow the driver 5/6 or 7 three second boosts during the race for overtaking or for accelerating away from a following car.

If you remember during the turbo day's the boost was used in exactly that way, and in my humble opinion the racing was far better.

Regards scaliwag.

[Mark]

What I was trying to put forward (in my own inadequate way) was for the powers that be to calculate the fuel allowance for race distance, then increase it by X amount to allow the driver 5/6 or 7 three second boosts during the race for overtaking or for accelerating away from a following car.

If you remember during the turbo day's the boost was used in exactly that way, and in my humble opinion the racing was far better.

Regards scaliwag.

I know, sure. But it would be more strategic to allow teams to choose their own fuel, and if they are going to have no boost during the race, e.g. if they are doing a one stopper, or lots of boost to overtake if they are doing a 3 stop race.

[scaliwag]

While I'm usually against things like push to pass buttons that we get/got in Champ Car/IRL, it's actually not a bad idea when put like this. If you say it can be used whenever the hell you like, but yeah with a maximum fuel allowance, more of which gets burned up. In that way isn't not actually that much different to in the old turbo days when a driver would turn the boost up into qualifying mode when he needed to get past someone.

The worst part about the wing is that it can't be used in defence and only within the "overtaking zone" (puke), so it's not exactly a level playing field.[/QUOTE]


Agreed V12,

Re your turbo comment, I missed your post whilst I was replying to Mark, but you are spot on, and as I stated to Mark the racing was far better then.

Regards scaliwag.

[scaliwag]

I know, sure. But it would be more strategic to allow teams to choose their own fuel, and if they are going to have no boost during the race, e.g. if they are doing a one stopper, or lots of boost to overtake if they are doing a 3 stop race.

Mark, is your strategy designed for refueling?

If not, by all means let the teams decide, no boost= X gallons---Boost=X gallons+X

My extrapolation was for no change in the existing refueling rules.

Regards scaliwag.

[Dave B]

I know, sure. But it would be more strategic to allow teams to choose their own fuel, and if they are going to have no boost during the race, e.g. if they are doing a one stopper, or lots of boost to overtake if they are doing a 3 stop race.


The same should apply to KERS: if you're going to allow it, then let the teams decide whether the weight penalty is worth the gain.

We could see some teams opting to start with more fuel (and weight) but use their p2p button loads; others may forgo the use of the boost but enjoy the advantage of lighter cars at the beginning of the race.

The flappy wings, however, have no place in F1.

[ArrowsFA1]

Remember what a great idea adjustable front wings were last year. They were going to help overtaking weren't they. That worked didn't it.

[billiaml]

Remember what a great idea adjustable front wings were last year. They were going to help overtaking weren't they. That worked didn't it.

Yet another in the long list of ideas that work better on paper than in real life.

[truefan72]

haha you guys act like its the end of the world, every year there are new rules with some being wacky. you never know it might create a hell of a show. i just got done watching the borefest that was abu dhabi 2010, anything can be better than that. yes now the drivers have almost too much to do, but that means more mistakes which means more action. im all for more action, i dont really care how it comes about. i just hate boring races.

well that's exactly the problem isn't it?

every year new rules, new changes and no consitency

this idea is so pathetic and what;s worse it is managed and adjudicatdd by the FIa, an organization that has show very little in either partiality or admiiting when mistakes have been made.

I can see the first incident in the first race with an RBR or Mclaren driver claiming the system wasn't working as they were trying to pass a Ferrari, or somehow one car getting a more favorable zone than another because the guy "forgot" to monitor the zone properly, or the wrong car being activated in a 3 way battle allowing the 3rd car to pass the 2nd and 1st car ahead of him. This whole thing really has more downsides than upside and that being said will probably be abandoned by the time we get to Barcelona

[truefan72]

What I was trying to put forward (in my own inadequate way) was for the powers that be to calculate the fuel allowance for race distance, then increase it by X amount to allow the driver 5/6 or 7 three second boosts during the race for overtaking or for accelerating away from a following car.

If you remember during the turbo day's the boost was used in exactly that way, and in my humble opinion the racing was far better.

Regards scaliwag.

I like this idea, it seems like really the only thing to get around the aero problems and dirty air issue. make the boost really good so a proper pass can be made.

It will then be interesting to see how many PtoP a driver has left and what strategies they employ in using it,

then again why not integrate it into kers and kill 2 birds with one stone?

[scaliwag]

I like this idea, it seems like really the only thing to get around the aero problems and dirty air issue. make the boost really good so a proper pass can be made.

It will then be interesting to see how many PtoP a driver has left and what strategies they employ in using it,

then again why not integrate it into kers and kill 2 birds with one stone?


Yep all for it.

Regards scaliwag

[airshifter]

I'm skeptical at best, but I guess we won't know for sure until they start using it. With all the restrictions on the use of the wing, I'm worried that it will screw up what would otherwise be good battles. I hope it doesn't create situations where a driver passes someone he is fighting with, only to be repassed by that same driver the next lap, etc, etc.

To some extent the wing will have the effect of making a straight longer. In a lot of cases if the straight was a bit longer more passes would happen, since if you can just get close enough to get a tow the possibility is there.

[Bagwan]

It seems the drivers agree that it could be trouble .

This is from Vettel , one of three directors of the GPDA , along with Rubens and Felipe :

"Most drivers agreed it could be a safety issue,"
"The most important thing is that the drivers are together,"
"If we all agree on something then we can be very powerful. We can say, 'ok, we are not racing'.
"That doesn't necessarily mean we will go on strike. We'll try to find a solution with the FIA first,"

Good -bye , stupid wing thing .
It won't make good press to have the drivers refuse to drive .

[gloomyDAY]

We have another driver whining about the flapping wings.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/90096

Gosh, this driver is such a wuss. Always complaining about everything!

[Koz]

The whole circuit is the "overtaking zone".

Come on bra, get with the program.

The whole circuit isn't an overtaking zone. Why would anyone bother overtaking anyone else when they know the guy behind them will pass them in a few corners at the actual "over taking zone". Seems like useless fuss.

Come to think of it since we're probably going to have an "overtakeing move" every time we're in the zones and I suspect throughout the race we will have a a few cars there every couple of seconds, maybe we should get rid of all cameras not in the twilight zone...

[Big Ben]

So I guess the tickets should be cheaper in the 'not overtaking zone'.

It would be nice to see at some race 2 drivers in 2 equally matched cars fighting in the closing stages of the race to be behind for the final lap... or 1lap before that, depending on where the red light district is on the track :laugh:

[janneppi]

I might have missed it from an earlier discussion, but what happens when there are more than two cars on a overtaking straight?
The first car isn't allowed to use his wing, second car can if he's about overtake the first car.
Is the second car allowed to flap it's wings if there is a car behind it in an overtaking position?

[MrJan]

I might have missed it from an earlier discussion, but what happens when there are more than two cars on a overtaking straight?
The first car isn't allowed to use his wing, second car can if he's about overtake the first car.
Is the second car allowed to flap it's wings if there is a car behind it in an overtaking position?

This whole thing is poorly thought out so I doubt that the powers that be have even thought about that. In the history of half baked F1 ideas this ranks near the top.

[Dave B]

I might have missed it from an earlier discussion, but what happens when there are more than two cars on a overtaking straight?
The first car isn't allowed to use his wing, second car can if he's about overtake the first car.
Is the second car allowed to flap it's wings if there is a car behind it in an overtaking position?

Well quite. This shows just how ill-conceived the whole idea is.

[AndyL]

I might have missed it from an earlier discussion, but what happens when there are more than two cars on a overtaking straight?
The first car isn't allowed to use his wing, second car can if he's about overtake the first car.
Is the second car allowed to flap it's wings if there is a car behind it in an overtaking position?

Seems very clear to me. If you are within one second of the car in front of you then you can use your flappy wing.

Whether there's someone behind you doesn't come into it, I'm not aware of any official source ever suggesting that it would. It may be a spectacularly dumb idea, but not for that reason.

[markabilly]

Just get rid of the wings and turn it into a contest of driving skill.

When I was a kid I asked why dont they have covered wheels like Can-Am or Lemans??.....and was told by someone who might know, because it is all about the skill of driving and not about the technical parts of the car itself......

The answer came from AJ Foyt, and was actually asked about the open wheeled Indy cars, but in my small world I thought it also applied to F1...............

Thanks AJ, wherever you be

[Big Ben]

I was always against the idea of giving points for qualy results but under the current rules it makes more sense then points for race results

[Bagwan]

When an open wing passes a closed one , it will be , by design , using less downforce .
It will be moving faster into the braking zone .
It will have a guy , presumably able to brake later because he's travelling slower , behind it .

It will mean that the guy in front must brake earlier , and when he does , his wing will snap closed , bringing instant downforce on the rear .
Front lock-up will be common as the back end hunches down under the pressure , and steering , as a result , will be compromised at the entry of the predetermined corners .

The biggest issue , I believe , will not be the speed they go by , but , rather , the closing speed in the braking zone .

It's going to mean a lot of broken wings , and a few lift-offs .


Last year's adjustable front wing was only used to trim the car as the weight came off , as the difference was too much and destabilized the car if you used it all the time .
Now we are going to try destabilizing the back end .

That'll work .

[Tazio]

well that's exactly the problem isn't it?

every year new rules, new changes and no consitency

this idea is so pathetic and what;s worse it is managed and adjudicatdd by the FIa, an organization that has show very little in either partiality or admiiting when mistakes have been made.

I can see the first incident in the first race with an RBR or Mclaren driver claiming the system wasn't working as they were trying to pass a Ferrari, or somehow one car getting a more favorable zone than another because the guy "forgot" to monitor the zone properly, or the wrong car being activated in a 3 way battle allowing the 3rd car to pass the 2nd and 1st car ahead of him. This whole thing really has more downsides than upside and that being said will probably be abandoned by the time we get to BarcelonaI agree my man, this could turn out to be the most convoluted season
of the modern era.
I'm just glad that this is all so cost effective! :confused: :s mokin:

[Garry Walker]

It seems the drivers agree that it could be trouble .

This is from Vettel , one of three directors of the GPDA , along with Rubens and Felipe :

"Most drivers agreed it could be a safety issue,"
"The most important thing is that the drivers are together,"
"If we all agree on something then we can be very powerful. We can say, 'ok, we are not racing'.
"That doesn't necessarily mean we will go on strike. We'll try to find a solution with the FIA first,"

Good -bye , stupid wing thing .
It won't make good press to have the drivers refuse to drive .

Except they wont. Bernie will have to say 1 sentence and they will all drive and that is it. There are no such strong characters among drivers who would have the balls to stand up and actually go through with their threats and display such character that others would follow. I am thinking in the lines of such as Senna and Lauda. Current lineup just does not have such personas. Maybe I am underrating them, hopefully I am.

[Bagwan]

Now we have the "closer than one second" line moved out to 780metres , instead of the 600metres that the FIA had said earlier .

Gear ratios are going to need to be adjusted .
This news apparently came last night for the teams .

[airshifter]

Now we have the "closer than one second" line moved out to 780metres , instead of the 600metres that the FIA had said earlier .

Gear ratios are going to need to be adjusted .
This news apparently came last night for the teams .

Making things a moving target will be good for the show right? :rolleyes:

[gloomyDAY]

Guys, please tell me I'm having issues with reading comprehension.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/90157

*head exploded*

[truefan72]

Guys, please tell me I'm having issues with reading comprehension.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/90157

*head exploded*
madness

[Tazio]

Guys, please tell me I'm having issues with reading comprehension.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/90157

*head exploded*

I think we all had an idea this would somehow get convoluted. Why should anyone be surprised.
What I want to know is how are they going to (in reality) police it in quali. Just another way to keep the competition close as Charlie,
and Bernie see fit.

[Tazio]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiDOMuhpqUo
Seems like we have all been here before!

[Mark]

So it's officialled called the DRS (Drag Reduction System) but it seems they can't agree on that as HRT was calling it something else :s

[ShiftingGears]

Guys, please tell me I'm having issues with reading comprehension.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/90157

*head exploded*

Haha, again so embarrassing. It's as if the original restrictions weren't stupid enough.

[schmenke]

So… confirm my understanding…
The flappy wing was introduced to make it easier to overtake to provide more exciting racing.
Bernie now wants to douse circuits with water to provide more exciting overtaking, but the use of the flappy wing will then not be permitted :crazy:

[Garry Walker]

So… confirm my understanding…
The flappy wing was introduced to make it easier to overtake to provide more exciting racing.
Bernie now wants to douse circuits with water to provide more exciting overtaking, but the use of the flappy wing will then not be permitted :crazy:

:D :D :D :D

The stupidity is astounding, it really is. It is like they take a decision without giving it any thoughts on how it will work out in long-term. Really, that kind of behaviour I expect from my cats and dogs, but I would expect more from an 11 year old kid.