Toyota, what an embarassment.

[Breeze]

Its a good thing for Toyota that Williams will be on track to save them face (and, ironically, humble them). Its early times, I know, but already they are an embarassment to themselves. SPANKED by their own customer, Williams, in both sessions is just shameful. If they don't rebound today, maybe they should think about buying last years Williams chassis, eh? :D

[ioan]

Not that Honda are doing any better and luckily they have Super Aguri too! :D

[Dave B]

Toyota are spending a small fortune on their F1 program, with worryingly poor results. I often read that their corporate culture makes them slow to respond as all the big decisions are taken in the boardroom back in Japan, not on the factory floor.

It's also said that being based in Germany is hurting them as they struggle to attract top talent from rival teams.

Their drivers are steady if unspectacular (sorry pino!), but clearly there's a big problem somewhere as a team with that much money should be performing at or near the front by now.

[Wilderness]

Prediction: Nothing will improve by 2008 and in 2009 the Toyota name will only be found in F1 as an engine supplier. The rest the team assets will be sold as scrap since no team wants to open shop in Cologne (only idiot Ove did).

[Roamy]

Yes Yes my man "Ovary" a F1 legend in his own mind. When you go to a fish house don't order steak. Plus Lutefisk is NOT sushi !! no matter how much lye you put on it!!!!

[Ian McC]

I don't think many people take them seriously, which they should be, considering the amount of money they put into it. It just goes to show it's not just money that makes an F1 team.

[Wilderness]

A lengen in somebody else's mind at Toyota since they still have Ove as a "consultant". So yes, there are obviously more idiots involved (aside from Ralfie, of course).

[jens]

What an attitude. If Toyota team is struggling, then their drivers are crap, if some other team is in trouble, then the drivers are just "innocent sufferers". If that is not a biased view, then what is it?


Not that Honda are doing any better and luckily they have Super Aguri too! :D

Agreed. And I haven't noticed anyone saying that Honda is full of idiots etc.

People always fail to treat Toyota the same way as others. Of course they have done mistakes, but they are a normal racing team like all the others, not a "special" I don't know what. Sometimes it looks like Toyota is a criminal and should be treated the same way as the others are "nice ones".

Anyway, actually in practice Toyota performed better than I feared (in last positions), which might indicate that they might be getting out of the deepest hole. But are they the last ones or manage to get into Q2, has to be seen tomorrow.

[luvracin]

It's also said that being based in Germany is hurting them as they struggle to attract top talent from rival teams.


BMW-Sauber are based in Switzerland and they do ok.

Ferrari is one of only 2 teams based in Italy and they seem to be ok too...

[Breeze]

People always fail to treat Toyota the same way as others. .

Probably on account of their MASSIVE BUDGET and half-assed results. Similar to how BAR was slagged in the early years. And with good reason on both accounts. Too bad for Ralf and Jarno really, to be surrounded with so much incompetence. But it doesn't seem they've done anything to elevate Toyota's game either.

[futuretiger9]

I wonder how long the Toyota F1 programme can continue to wander aimlessly like this, without some fundamental restructuring.

[Wilderness]

What an attitude. If Toyota team is struggling, then their drivers are crap, if some other team is in trouble, then the drivers are just "innocent sufferers". If that is not a biased view, then what is it?
Here's a major team in major disarray that no amount of money will fix. While there's no "I" in team, the drivers are delt what the engineers give them (based on some of their input). All successful teams have in common is a capable principal that is able to assemble a great team. Toyota has neither an able team principal, nor an able team (as a whole). Throw all the money you want, but Toyota needs a major shakedown from the top on down, which won't happen. This team will be shut down at the end of next season.

[truefan72]

Here's a major team in major disarray that no amount of money will fix. While there's no "I" in team, the drivers are delt what the engineers give them (based on some of their input). All successful teams have in common is a capable principal that is able to assemble a great team. Toyota has neither an able team principal, nor an able team. Throw all the money you want, but Toyota needs a major shakedown from the top on down, which won't happen. This team will be shut down at the end of next season.

Well said and my sentiments exactly. Something is fundemantally wrong in that team and it is completely perplexing how and why they get things completely wrong. It might be a shining example of exactly how not to run an F1 team. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result everytime. Thier stubborness to change, to break away from a Japanes style autocratic rule over the team (perhaps due to national pride or some other misguided notion) is seriously hurting the teams abilty. Blow the whole thing up and start with a clean slate and fresh approach. Spend good money on recruitong top engineers and a solid team manager rather than on useless R&D flights of fancy. Being in Germany isn't a factor IMO as well.

[Ian McC]

I wonder how long the Toyota F1 programme can continue to wander aimlessly like this, without some fundamental restructuring.

Indeed, I am surprised someone hasn't been made to pay yet.

[PSfan]

Was just thinking, this is a pretty harsh thread based on results of the first Friday practice of the season. Just wondering, at this point what would be cosidered a good result for Toyota in both Qualifying, and Race results in Australia?

[Osella]

I think 1 point would be considered a good result! Ironic considering their first Australian GP result...

And it's not a harsh thread based on that, it's been that way since the Williams was launched!
Most people with any knowledge of F1 don't even see Toyota anymore, they just see Jaguar, but in Red and White...

Toyota should have just provided the resources to a race team (a la Honda), but instead they played a stupid game of Japanese one-upmanship and are proving so, so well that an F1 team based on a marketing plan just does not work!!!

As for all this bo*****s about 'they always succeed', well that's just wrong. CART? No. BTCC? No. Le Mans? No. WSC? No. WRC with the big-budget Corolla? No.
Toyota have won nothing of note in international motorsport in the last 12 years, with the exception of the Japanese/Super GT championship. How, exactly does that make their F1 title 'inevitable'?

You don't sack someone like Mike Gascoyne (one of the originator's of Jordan's championship challenge, and the Benetton/Renault design philosophy that has brought them back to the top), if you have half a clue about how to run an F1 operation!

[Wilderness]

Was just thinking, this is a pretty harsh thread based on results of the first Friday practice of the season. Just wondering, at this point what would be cosidered a good result for Toyota in both Qualifying, and Race results in Australia?
Make it to the round of 16 qualifiers on their own merit (not because of someone else's failure) and 10th place in the race also on their own.

[ClarkFan]

Its a good thing for Toyota that Williams will be on track to save them face (and, ironically, humble them). Its early times, I know, but already they are an embarassment to themselves. SPANKED by their own customer, Williams, in both sessions is just shameful. If they don't rebound today, maybe they should think about buying last years Williams chassis, eh? :D

Frank is working hard to find the dosh to keep Williams F1 going - I'm sure he would quote them an attractive price. :p

There is an interesting parallel between Toyota and Honda's entry through BAR. BAR was an overfunded flop, with an underperforming but highly paid driver until Richards was brought in to shake things up. I know that opinions about the JV/Richards clash are varied, but BAR had done nothing through 2002, got better quickly and then floundered after Richards left. Honda got a bit better last year, but the jury is still out on their performance.

Perhaps that is Toyota's answer - through the many, large bags of money they are now spending at a racer's organization like Prodrive (or Williams F1!) and declare that the new, improved Team Toyota.

Personally, I would like to see all the large manufacturers (Toyota, Honda, BMW, Daimler, Renault) get out of the team ownership business and just be engine suppliers. Honda certainly has been better served in that role - 3 race wins on their own vs. 6 Constructors Championships in a row as an engine supplier. Even Renault hasn't attained the same dominance they enjoyed powering Williams and Benetton.

ClarkFan

[tintop]

My Brother-in-law works for Toyota development and is a huge F1 fan... I'm beginning to worry about my sister.

[jens]

Toyota managed to outclass Williams today, so you guys were gloating too early.

[Wilderness]

P8 and 9 in the first battle. Let's see if they reverse the trend of slipping backwards as the race progresses.

[jens]

Add some comments that I forgot before. I have to admit that Toyota managed to surprise even me. But reliablity still seems to be an issue and quali showed those worries - and still the same gearbox problems haven't disappeared. It's gonna be tough 58 laps. I suspect that if at least one car manages to get to the chequered flag without problems, then that would already be a decent achievement. Recently Toyota has had too many races with both cars pulling into the garage - last year China and Brazil.

But also I'd say well-done to their very criticized drivers, who this time managed to take practically maximum out of that mediocre package! :up:

[F1boat]

Yes, Toyota were solid in qualifying. Honda on the other hand were abyssmal. Maybe the name of the thread should be changed.

[pino]

Go Jarnoooo ! :D

[Osella]

Tho I rather suspect that Honda's budget is considerably smaller...

Again, qualifying is one thing, the race is another... I just hope that Massa can get past them and give us an entertaining afternoon! ;)

Congratulations again to Toyota on pulling the cat out of the bag :up: But surely it shouldn't have been in there in the first place!?

[Ian McC]

Well they did better than I thought but we will have to see how their strategy plays out tomorrow.

[seppefan]

Its a good thing for Toyota that Williams will be on track to save them face (and, ironically, humble them). Its early times, I know, but already they are an embarassment to themselves. SPANKED by their own customer, Williams, in both sessions is just shameful. If they don't rebound today, maybe they should think about buying last years Williams chassis, eh? :D

A wee misjudgement....don't jump the gun....although with the race still to come........!!

[Dave B]

Toyota have done silly low-fuel qualifying before now, only in the race will we see what their true pace is. But credit where it's due: they certainly did better than I expected in qually.

[Easy Drifter]

I agree with Dave. Probably low fuel load, although they did make top 10. But things like the jack flying onto the track should not happen.

[jens]

I agree with Dave. Probably low fuel load, although they did make top 10. But things like the jack flying onto the track should not happen.

Low fuel load? In Q1 and Q2 everyone runs with low fuel load, so they got into Top10 purely on their own merit!

And in fact - in Q2 Toyotas lost by about 1,3 secs to the first one. In the last session, where cars ran with race fuel load, Toyotas lost 2+ seconds to the winner, which indicates that Toyota is actually quite heavy.

[ATF]

They did well in quali but you just can't get your hopes up about this team. OK so they may well score a podium or two throughout the year but they've been planning this F1 campaign since at least 1999 (or maybe even before?)!

They pulled out of the WRC to put all of their resources into the F1 project. They even took that extra year in 2001 before so that they would be ready in 2002. I'd love to see what their aim back then was for their fifth season of F1 - cos i sure as hell bet it wasn't to finish 6th in the constructors!


EDIT: This is the only quote I can find (from Salo in 2001):

"To start from a clean sheet of paper, to build our own complete Toyota F1 car and to get the results, the wins and the championship success will take some years."

Well, this is their sixth season. Ralf for champion anyone...

[jens]

"To start from a clean sheet of paper, to build our own complete Toyota F1 car and to get the results, the wins and the championship success will take some years."


Maybe building up a team from zero was a mistake? Other teams like RBR, Honda, Renault, BMW - all of them have bought someone, who has already some experience and team personnel at some experience level. We can't forget that which teams are successful in F1: Ferrari and McLaren have tens of years of experience, Renault (former Benetton) over 20 years and Sauber (BMW) from 1993 (and also BMW has been an engine supplier in the 80s). Compared them Toyota looks like a real rookie.

But Toyota's argument for building up a team from zero was that in that case no-one can say that "their success is the favour of the predecessor, but they have achieved all that on their own merit." They had the courage to risk, but maybe they overrated themselves?

I remember Tomita's words from 2003 after some troubled races in early season: "After promising 2002 we hoped to score some podiums this season, but probably we underrated Formula One..."

But there is at least one positive aspect about Toyota - they haven't given up and they are still trying. And maybe that's their goal - not to leave F1 before they have achieved something (well, at least got back to the level of 2005) not to get the conclusive image of a loser (like Jaguar).

[ioan]

Low fuel load? In Q1 and Q2 everyone runs with low fuel load, so they got into Top10 purely on their own merit!

And in fact - in Q2 Toyotas lost by about 1,3 secs to the first one. In the last session, where cars ran with race fuel load, Toyotas lost 2+ seconds to the winner, which indicates that Toyota is actually quite heavy.

Absolutely right there, they were on low fuel as everyone out there at that moment.