Japan Earthquate 8.9 & Tsunami

[Koz]

Watching on BBC right now...

Terrible the whole city is underwater...

Huge oil refinery on fire...

[CaptainRaiden]

That's a massive earthquake and the live pictures are horrifying! It's very depressing to see houses and cars float in the huge wave like that. It could be some poor guy's lifetime income. And now there's a huge fire at an oil refinery in Tokyo. I just hope there aren't a lot of casualties, and Japan is well equipped to deal with this... :(

Some astrologist predicted last week that there could be earthquakes and tsunamis in certain parts of the world, because of the supermoon (http://tech2.in.com/india/news/science-technology/march-19-2011-supermoon-or-superdoom/197732/0) phenomena on March 19. And actually some astronomers and scientists agreed with this. I don't know if that has anything to do with this.

[Daniel]

Scary stuff. There's one forumer there that I know of which is WRCfan and he's said that he's safe and that everything inside his house fell over :mark: Scary stuff.....

[Dave B]

Terrifying pictures on the news. Not much more to say really.

[ArrowsFA1]

I've just seen footage on the BBC website. Terrible :(

[CaptainRaiden]

Scary stuff. There's one forumer there that I know of which is WRCfan and he's said that he's safe and that everything inside his house fell over :mark: Scary stuff.....

I have felt what a tremor is like, because there was a big earthquake in a city not so far from mine. I was sleeping on a couch and woke up when it felt like somebody was pushing the couch back and forth violently. My family members dragged me out in panic because they thought the house was gonna crumble, but nothing happened. That was scary enough.

I can't even begin to imagine what would happen in an earthquake of the magnitude of 8.9. Seems absolutely horrifying. :eek:

[Rollo]

Not surprising, both the NHK and NHK World websites are out, which means that actual info coming out of Japan won't be direct.

As many as 40 million have been directly affected by this, and 10m tsunamis have hit the east coast. Buildings are cars are being thrown about like toys. This is horrid.

About the only reliable feed is this at the moment: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698

[Daniel]

I have felt what a tremor is like, because there was a big earthquake in a city not so far from mine. I was sleeping on a couch and woke up when it felt like somebody was pushing the couch back and forth violently. My family members dragged me out in panic because they thought the house was gonna crumble, but nothing happened. That was scary enough.

I can't even begin to imagine what would happen in an earthquake of the magnitude of 8.9. Seems absolutely horrifying. :eek:

I felt an earthquake a couple of years ago late at night when I was on my computer. I was sitting on an office chair and I could just feel it wobbling the chair back and forth. I thought I was shivering or something and causing the chair to move, if not for everyone else in the game saying that they'd just had an earthquake I wouldn't have thought anything of it! Just can't comprehend what an 8.9 must feel like.....

[A.F.F.]

Oh my god :(

[pino]

Terrible news :(

[DexDexter]

Yep, indeed terrible. I woke up early for some reason and my cellphone news widget had a story about the event and I've been following it ever since on BBC. It was terrible to see the tsunami "eat up" cars. A lot of people will have lost their lives.

[Tazio]

Terrible event I’ve read that it was actually a 7.2 which is still very high but 17 times less in amplitude than 8.9.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4155026.stm
I guess it's suppose to hit here in San Diego @8:48 am PST
We've been given a tsunami warning

[Eki]

Not surprising, both the NHK and NHK World websites are out, which means that actual info coming out of Japan won't be direct.
NHK World TV-channel is however working. The websites have probably been overloaded by visitors wanting to get news about the quake.

[Mark]

Horrible pictures coming out of the TV there, and the worst part of it is that it's only going to get worse..

[Eki]

Terrible event I’ve read that it was actually a 7.2 which is still very high but 17 times less in amplitude than 8.9.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4155026.stm
I guess it's suppose to hit here in San Diego @8:48 am PST
We've been given a tsunami warning
Isn't it 70 times less? The Richter scale is logarithmic, and I've understood that 8 is ten times higher than 7 and 9 is ten times higher than 8 and hundred times (10*10) higher than 7. So 8.2 is ten times higher than 7.2 and 8.9 is seven times higher than 8.2 and seventy times (10*7) higher than 7.2.

[Tazio]

Isn't it 70 times less? The Richter scale is logarithmic, and I've understood that 8 is ten times higher than 7 and 9 is ten times higher than 8 and hundred times (10*10) higher than 7. So 8.2 is ten times higher than 7.2 and 8.9 is seven times higher than 8.2 and seventy times (10*7) higher than 7.2.
You are right I stand corrected. I'm thinking of dropping in to La Jolla and check out the waves.

[Eki]

You are right I stand corrected. I'm thinking of dropping in to La Jolla and check out the waves.
I've been to La Jolla, got a cap from La Jolla Hard Rock Cafe.

[Tazio]

I've been to La Jolla, got a cap from La Jolla Hard Rock Cafe. :up:

The cliffs would provide a high enough vantage point but the police will not let sight seekers up there.
It would be great view of the Multi-million dollar houses on La Jolla Shores Dr. get a little flood damage,
Actually it would be a mad house down there, especially during rush hour. Plus I don't really want to get in the way.
I don't think it will hit very hard here. It looks like Hawaii is going to take a big hit, This is really bad bad news

[Eki]

Thankfully the Japanese seem to be well prepared for disasters like this. They just showed a supermarket loading food into baskets and said the supermarket has a government contract to prepare for this and deliver food and other goods to people. In many other countries there would probably have been looting of supermarkets instead.

[Daniel]

Thankfully the Japanese seem to be well prepared for disasters like this. They just showed a supermarket loading food into baskets and said the supermarket has a government contract to prepare for this and deliver food and other goods to people. In many other countries there would probably have been looting of supermarkets instead.

Yes they are amazingly well prepared. Apparently this is the biggest earthquake in 140 years and whilst the destruction caused by the Tsunami is obvious, the loss of life seems (so far at least) minimal in comparison to the Kobe earthquake. The building regulations really seem to be good :up:

[DonJippo]

Some astrologist predicted last week that there could be earthquakes and tsunamis in certain parts of the world, because of the supermoon (http://tech2.in.com/india/news/science-technology/march-19-2011-supermoon-or-superdoom/197732/0) phenomena on March 19. And actually some astronomers and scientists agreed with this. I don't know if that has anything to do with this.

Something surely was going on as you can see from this video posted two days ago in Youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hG87v9-ROfw&feature=email

[Rollo]

After the Hanshin Earthquake in 1995, Nissin Foods have made it policy to have on standby 30 million Cup Noodles ready to be shipped out in case of national emergency.

[Tazio]

Terrible event I’ve read that it was actually a 7.2 which is still very high but 17 times less in amplitude than 8.9.
I guess it's suppose to hit here in San Diego @8:48 am PST
We've been given a tsunami warning

This post is incorrect. it was in fact an 8.9

[wedge]

I've got an internet buddy who lives and works (English teacher) in Sendai. A few years ago I stayed over at his place for a few days after I asked for itinerary suggestions on different forum.

Really wish he's OK.

[edv]

The video footage is absolutely terrifying!
Reports of a cruise ship .. Missing
Reports of an entire train .. Missing
The death toll from this is going to be in the 1,000s possibly 10s of 1,000s.
The epicentre is so close to shore that I'm sure they had almost no warning.

[Dave B]

Please don't give any credibility to this nonsense that the moon is in any way responsible.

[Dave B]

http://bengoldacre.posterous.com/supermoon-caused-earthquake-total-utter-stupi

Note: contains strong language.

[airshifter]

The video footage is absolutely terrifying!
Reports of a cruise ship .. Missing
Reports of an entire train .. Missing
The death toll from this is going to be in the 1,000s possibly 10s of 1,000s.
The epicentre is so close to shore that I'm sure they had almost no warning.

I have to agree... I've never seen footage of a natural event so powerful. I would not be surprised to see the death toll rise into the tens of thousands.

I must say that except for that footage taken during the actual earthquake and observers of the tsunami waves, the people involved first hand seem to be very calm in their reactions and how they are dealing with it.

I'm glad to see a number of news clips about countries moving military and other assets to assist in any way possible, even though at this point they aren't sure if those assets will be used. The US has moved or is moving a number of ships, a Marine Expeditionary Unit, and a carrier strike group to the area to aid in response.



Watching some of the footage was almost unreal. I can't even begin to comprehend the energy transfer of those huge tsunami waves full of debris as they swept through everything in their path. My heart goes out to the people living through this natural disaster.

[Robinho]

Frightening stuff, I do hope it's not as bad as feared I'n terms of death toll. Houses, cars etc can be replaced, lives can't. Scary situation brewing at one of the nuclear power stations too, hopefully then can get the cooling back on line soon

Thoughts are with anyone there and anyone who knows people over there

[Eki]

It's interesting to read the FoxNews reader comments on this topic. They are turning it into a pissing contest between Obama and Bush:

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/03/11/thousands-roam-tokyo-streets-massive-tsunami-devastates-region/#comment

Well, to be fair I must admit that on one Finnish forum somebody suggested that the quake was organized by the US using HAARP to distract the world while they invade Libya. I hope it was meant to be a joke.

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/pandora/haarp.html

[WRCfan]

It was terrifying, I was ten floors up. Hearing solid marble cracking and metal bending was one noise I will never forget. 10flights of stairs in less than 30 seconds I am sure. The ground has not stopped shaking since it happened. Was terrifying to put it lightly.

Glad to be out with my life thats for sure.

[ShiftingGears]

State of emergency at five Nuclear Reactors. Yikes.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/as_japan_quake_power_plant

[Tazio]

State of emergency at five Nuclear Reactors. Yikes.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/as_japan_quake_power_plant
An elevated level of radiation outside the core is not good. :eek:
There is a very small chance that there could be a China Syndrome in Japan.
Let's hope not.

[Bob Riebe]

It's interesting to read the FoxNews reader comments on this topic. They are turning it into a pissing contest between Obama and Bush:


This is a comment from and about the CNN reader comments: The immaturity on this board is shameful. Is this what the almighty United States has fallen to? Using a tragedy like this to take cheap shots at others?

Now back to the real topic and for God's sake Eki for just leave it at that.

[BleAivano]

i read at BBC News that even if the Reactors were to have meltdown(s) the risk for a disaster is small since Japan uses lightwater reactors "meaning an explosion is unlikely".

Read the full story here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12720219).

*edit info about light water reactors: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_water_reactor

[Daniel]

Apparently at least one reactor has gone into meltdown, scary stuff

[Hondo]

2 years after Japan has rebuilt and moved on, there will still be people in New Orleans and Haiti complaining about when someone is going to come and fix their Katrina and earthquake damage.

[Tazio]

i read at BBC News that even if the Reactors were to have meltdown(s) the risk for a disaster is small since Japan uses lightwater reactors "meaning an explosion is unlikely".

Read the full story here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12720219).

*edit info about light water reactors: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_water_reactor

Nice read bro :up: an explosion would be very unfortunate, and unlikely. However, it doesn't really address a China Syndrome scenario, also referred to as a "nuclear meltdown" only worse! The 'China Syndrome' refers to the most drastically severe meltdown a nuclear reactor could possibly achieve. The reactor would reach the highest level of supercriticality for a sustained period of time, resulting in the melting of its support infrastructure and exiting into the ground. Not only would you have a massive release of nuclear radiation , but having to retrieve the radioactive rods would be a nightmare.
Like I said it is extremely unlikely!

[Dave B]

Reuters: FLASH: Several people appear to have been injured after reported Fukushima plant explosion - media

[donKey jote]

It was terrifying, I was ten floors up. Hearing solid marble cracking and metal bending was one noise I will never forget. 10flights of stairs in less than 30 seconds I am sure. The ground has not stopped shaking since it happened. Was terrifying to put it lightly.

Glad to be out with my life thats for sure.

glad you're ok !

[DexDexter]

Reuters: FLASH: Several people appear to have been injured after reported Fukushima plant explosion - media

Finnish radiation expert said yesterday that both Japan and The US have ignored IAEA's concerns about alternate power supply in their older nuclear plants and Fukushima is one of those. They lost power and were not able to cool down the reactor.

This is going to be another huge disaster for Japan. Terrible.

[Mark]

Massive explosion in a nuclear reactor after the cooling system failed. It's not clear if the core has been breached or if there is significant radiation leakage. They've already had to release radioactive steam to try to prevent this.

[Daniel]

****

[Daniel]

I've got a nasty feeling that the Japanese authorities are covering things up and not letting on how serious this is

[ioan]

8.9 on Richter scale earthquake + tsunami + nuclear catastrophe, this is the worse nightmare for the people in Japan.
Let's hope that the other 4 reactors that are experiencing problems will not end up like this one.

[Eki]

8.9 on Richter scale earthquake + tsunami + nuclear catastrophe, this is the worse nightmare for the people in Japan.

True. The only thing missing is Godzilla.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godzilla

[Daniel]

True. The only thing missing is Godzilla.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godzilla

Perhaps not the best time for jokes Eki?

[Eki]

Perhaps not.

[DexDexter]

8.9 on Richter scale earthquake + tsunami + nuclear catastrophe, this is the worse nightmare for the people in Japan.
Let's hope that the other 4 reactors that are experiencing problems will not end up like this one.

Some sources (Kyoto) are reporting that another nuclear plant is in trouble and they're not able to cool down the reactor.

[Francis44]

I've read authorities have warned citizens living in the area of the Nuclear Plant to leave and creat a 30KM space around the Plant, I seriously hope they can cool it down if it hasn't exploded yet because right now Japan needs everything but not a Radiation leak :( .

[Tazio]

Massive explosion in a nuclear reactor after the cooling system failed. It's not clear if the core has been breached or if there is significant radiation leakage. They've already had to release radioactive steam to try to prevent this. Here is a link

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/12/japan.nuclear/index.html?eref=mrss_igoogle_cnn

This is bad news. What a nightmare!

[Daniel]

It was terrifying, I was ten floors up. Hearing solid marble cracking and metal bending was one noise I will never forget. 10flights of stairs in less than 30 seconds I am sure. The ground has not stopped shaking since it happened. Was terrifying to put it lightly.

Glad to be out with my life thats for sure.

You'll be amazed to know that you didn't even get the strongest level of shaking there either!!!!

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/51647000/gif/_51647708_japan_quake_sendai_464-v2.gif

[Tazio]

It's being reported that the explosion was not in the reactor core!
http://www.wbir.com/news/article/161163/16/Japanese-official-says-reactor-not-damaged-after-explosion

A Japanese spokesman has reported that 9.5 thousand people are unaccounted for from one village.

[Sonic]

Shocking just shocking and it seems the Japanese authorities are being less than forthcoming. A BBC reporter was stopped 60KM's from the site by police and told it was too dangerous to continue when the official evac zone is a third that size.

[Robinho]

Really scary stuff, and it's still developing. There are inevitably a lot of people missing when 90% of towns have been washed away. And it's getting steadily worse at the nuclear site, now apparently 5 reactors with failed cooling. I'm struggling to see how this could get much worse, but I fear it might.

Hoping for a speck of good news to start appearing

[BleAivano]

actually rob i heard that the Japanese authorities are saying that they now have cooling at fukushima 1 and that it is working.https://www.flashback.org/t1483820

[Mark]

Shocking just shocking and it seems the Japanese authorities are being less than forthcoming. A BBC reporter was stopped 60KM's from the site by police and told it was too dangerous to continue when the official evac zone is a third that size.


God I'm tired of hearing that. There is BIG difference between evacuating people within an exclusion zone and allowing rafts of new people in.

[Robinho]

Watching BBC news now, explosion rated as a level 4 accident on the 0-7 scales, three mile island was a 5, Chernobyl a 7.

10,000 people unaccounted for in one port city in the north. The before and after pictures are just upsetting.

Not seeing much to be hopeful about yet, thoughs are with anyone in the area.

[Robinho]

An "expert" on the BBC has speculated that the explosion that has destroyed the outer building at the plant could have only been fuelled by the energy within the reactor itself and therefore he cannot understand how the explosion cannot have destroyed or damaged the inner reactor core itself. He feels the govt is deliberately playing the event down at this stage to avoid mass panic.

I hope he's wrong as the consequences if he is correct don't bare thinking about.

The event occurred because the number of of plants that shut down crashed the grid so the cooling pumps had no inbound electricity. This was replaced by the diesel generators, which then were wiped out by the tsunami, leaving no cooling to the reactor

[Daniel]

An "expert" on the BBC has speculated that the explosion that has destroyed the outer building at the plant could have only been fuelled by the energy within the reactor itself and therefore he cannot understand how the explosion cannot have destroyed or damaged the inner reactor core itself. He feels the govt is deliberately playing the event down at this stage to avoid mass panic.

I hope he's wrong as the consequences if he is correct don't bare thinking about.

The event occurred because the number of of plants that shut down crashed the grid so the cooling pumps had no inbound electricity. This was replaced by the diesel generators, which then were wiped out by the tsunami, leaving no cooling to the reactor

I hope you're wrong.

[Mark]

The explosion could have been any number of reasons rather than a core breach.

[Robinho]

Me too, we'll know soon enough.

[Robinho]

True, but it was a very large explosion, In an area where there should, for obvious reasons, not be anything explosive

[donKey jote]

possibly hydrogen from the water, which means it was/is pretty hot in there :s

http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/shortsharpscience/2011/03/massive-explosion-rips-through.html

[Zeakiwi]

Is there a ir satellite with a good cam to look in on the reactor ?

[Robinho]

BBC had a different expert on earlier, who contradicted the last one, saying the explosion wasn't the reactor, and that they believed the authorities. All the latest reports seem to suggest it's improving. They've moved to the option of flooding with seawater to cool the reactor. It works, but will mean the plant can't be used again, but seeing as it's 40 years old they aren't too bothered.

Still stunned by the before and after shots of minamisanriku, horrible to see a town of population 17,000 effectively wiped from the map. New footage of the tsunami coming out is truly incredible. If this was the plot of a disaster movie you'd write it off as too far fetched

[Dave B]

I've read a few posts speculating that Japan may be covering up some details. I disagree: Japan is a very open society and government with lots of allies, I suspect that any lack of information is due to the magnitude of this rapidly unfolding disaster simply swamping the authorities. However much contingency planning you do - and the Japanese are experts - it's simply impossible to adequately prepare for such a huge event.

[Daniel]

I've read a few posts speculating that Japan may be covering up some details. I disagree: Japan is a very open society and government with lots of allies, I suspect that any lack of information is due to the magnitude of this rapidly unfolding disaster simply swamping the authorities. However much contingency planning you do - and the Japanese are experts - it's simply impossible to adequately prepare for such a huge event.

I agree with your last point. With the first one I'm not sure, one moment I think they're not telling everything and then the next moment I think they're telling the truth.

Truth be told, I'm just someone sitting behind a keyboard and whether I got out of bed on the right side this morning probably has more influence on whether I think they're covering something up. We simply don't know and to apply common sense (ooh there's been a big explosion in a nuclear facility, it must be the fuel rods) to a situation as complicated as this is nothing more than speculation.

[donKey jote]

It works, but will mean the plant can't be used again, but seeing as it's 40 years old they aren't too bothered.
according to Spiegel, TEPCO are a bunch of donkeys and the plant was due to be shut down this March anyway :s
http://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/technik/0,1518,750572,00.html (German)

[Mark in Oshawa]

I am thinking that until I see the degree as a nuclear engineer from one of you guys, I will take the expert's I have heard who to a man who have all said that the reactor explosions are steam caused, and the hydrogen and oxygen reacting when the hydrogen gas is being created from the extreme heat. The containment buildings are the buildings exploding, but the core's are said to be stabilized by the sea water.

After all I have seen and read in the last few days, the reactor issues are cherrys on a very messy bad sundae. The Quake damage is bad enough but that Tsumnami hit a major city (Sendai) and pushed water and debris 6 MILES inland. Stop and think about the implications of all of that, and also realize this was during the day, and Japanese cities are quite dense in the population per square mile. Then factor in all the other towns.

Death toll is potentially in the 10's of thousands guys. This is the worst case scenario and only the Japanese could have as much self control and wits about them as they do in dealing with this. No other nation is as careful about preparation for disaster as the Japanese. I have the utmost faith in them dealing with this, doing it in an open fashion; and rebuilding. Unlike other democracies, they pull together without question when times are tough.

[markabilly]

Very sad indeed, Right now, I am very surprized that the death toll is so low.

I think the early warning system they have where cell phones and other devices receieve an alarm must have helped many be spared. I was noticing the appraoching flood waters, where one did not see people abandoning vehicles or running...indeed the cars appear to be stopped and abandoned long before the water reached them.

with the Katrina hurricane the death toll was around 1800 and people had days to get out of the way....not minutes...the last I heard was the toll in Japan was less than a thousand with another thousand or so missing.

Not sure what to think about the reactor issues, but scary enough as it is......

[Eki]

Very sad indeed, Right now, I am very surprized that the death toll is so low.

I think the early warning system they have where cell phones and other devices receieve an alarm must have helped many be spared. I was noticing the appraoching flood waters, where one did not see people abandoning vehicles or running...indeed the cars appear to be stopped and abandoned long before the water reached them.
They also showed a derailed train on a collapsed bridge and said that it had no casualties, since everyone was evacuated in time.

[Mark]

Very sad indeed, Right now, I am very surprized that the death toll is so low.

I think the early warning system they have where cell phones and other devices receieve an alarm must have helped many be spared. I was noticing the appraoching flood waters, where one did not see people abandoning vehicles or running...indeed the cars appear to be stopped and abandoned long before the water reached them.

with the Katrina hurricane the death toll was around 1800 and people had days to get out of the way....not minutes...the last I heard was the toll in Japan was less than a thousand with another thousand or so missing.

Not sure what to think about the reactor issues, but scary enough as it is......

That's what you get when a country and people are well used to and prepared for this sort of thing. Japan deserves a lot of credit for dealing with this.

[Daniel]

I don't normally go for this sort of thing but if you could click like on this that'd be great :) http://mashable.com/2011/03/12/quake-rescue/

[BleAivano]

found a link to a blogpost at wordpress, its a quite extensive piece of text about the Japanese NCL reactors.
i don't know how accurate correct it is but anyway here it is:
https://morgsatlarge.wordpress.com/2011/03/13/why-i-am-not-worried-about-japans-nuclear-reactors/

[edv]

Amazing before/after pictures of various locales along the coast, as put together by Google:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/events/japan-quake-2011/beforeafter.htm

As for TV commentators spouting about the reactors, I pay them no heed unless they are actual Nuclear Engineers. Any wonder why there are so many differing perspectives on this? It's called 'ignorance' and 'hysteria', and maybe even 'TV ratings'.

[BDunnell]

As for TV commentators spouting about the reactors, I pay them no heed unless they are actual Nuclear Engineers. Any wonder why there are so many differing perspectives on this? It's called 'ignorance' and 'hysteria', and maybe even 'TV ratings'.

Quite right. Everyone should remember this while watching. The same goes for updates on casualty figures, largely provided on such a regular basis to satisfy viewer demand rather than any wider need for genuine information, at a time when there will naturally be much uncertainty about the true extent of the devastation.

[Daniel]

Not long heard from a friend of mine who lives in Sendai, and he told his mum that he was watching TV in his appartment on the 13th floor when the earthquake hit. The corridor outside was blocked and he had no choice but to jump across to a balcony and scale down the outside of the building until he reached a floor that had suffered less damage. By the time he reached the ground the flood waters were rising around the streets, but he managed to get to the safety of his girlfriends parents house. Wish the guy would come home now though.

That;s some scary ****!!!!

[CaptainRaiden]

Another sad thing about such a huge disaster is that even after Japan has recovered and there are no more aftershocks, most of the survivors are likely to fall into depression which can also result into post traumatic stress disorder. I was talking with a clinical psychologist friend and he told me that with such huge disasters, that's more than likely to happen. They faced a very similar issue when he was posted at another place devastated by a huge Tsunami, Banda Aceh in Indonesia during the 2004 Indian Ocean earthquakes.

Yes, Japan is a very capable country and I'm sure they will provide enough relief funds to the survivors, but people falling into deep depression and developing stress disorders is very common when they've lost family members or their house and all belongings. Just a sad, sad event. At this point, I can only wish that things get better as quickly as possible. Nothing more to say.

[Mark]

Yep, at this stage people will still be running on adrenaline and living from one moment to the next, but when it all settles down and the fuss goes away, that's when it really hits.

[Tazio]

Yep, at this stage people will still be running on adrenaline and living from one moment to the next, but when it all settles down and the fuss goes away, that's when it really hits.This is such an appropriate issue what most people don’t know is the insidiousness of it. adrenaline does play a roll in this, because your brain will call on your adrenal gland for no reason.(this applies to panic} It is very closely related to steroid rage. Manypeople will use alcohol to self medicate, which really exacerbates the depression
PTSD is also a trigger for Spontaneous Panic Attacks, but not the only one. Successful treatment depends on how quickly you can identify it, and start treatment before you develop associations with places that they have occurred. I read about a woman that had it so bad that she would spend almost all of her time in the waiting room at the hospital because she wanted to be near medical facilities when her heart started feeling like it was going to jump out of her chest. This was a real eye opening piece of literature. The author explained that unless you have experienced one, the closest description he could use to explain it was: to imagine yourself having to walk a tight-rope between two buildings at the 50th floor, You have no experience walking a tightrope, and when you get to the 1/2 way point you are suddenly hit by a gale force wind.
He went on to say that is not even remotely as terrifying as a spontaneous panic attack because at least you know what it is that you’re afraid of.
This is a very treatable disorder with counseling including biofeedback therapy and with most people, a regimen of SSRI meds like Prozac which also is one of the wonder drugs for helping your brains neurotransmitters to continue to process serotonin. These drugs are Selective Serotonin Re-uptake inhibitors. But statistics show that they relieve depression in approximately half the people that suffer from depression.

[Mark]

Interesting points, especially since PTSD is something that has only recently been recognised as a disorder and something that can be treated. It has been thought of as something you just 'get over'. As recent portrayals in the likes of Coronation Street had a soldier coming back from war and had a few days of panic attacks, only to be suddenly all better once he's talked it through with his Mum.

[pettersolberg29]

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/03/13/world/asia/satellite-photos-japan-before-and-after-tsunami.html

Satellite photos before and after - incredible destruction.

[Tazio]

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/03/13/world/asia/satellite-photos-japan-before-and-after-tsunami.html

Satellite photos before and after - incredible destruction.

Taken from space the devastated parts look like piled up kindling .

[Robinho]

seen some incredible pitures, 3 storey buildings with debris on the roofs whilst everything smaller was washed away.

The death toll will stay officially low for now and these things have to be confirmed, and with so many people displaced and homeless, quantifying who is missing and who just isn't where they used to be is going to take a long time. sounds like there a lot of boides being recovered, just hope that there was a decent waring for most who managed to get to safety.

on the Nuclear front, I was only going on a couple of experts views, quoted on the BBC, albeit they turned out to completley contradict each other! in any case, what is going on is bad, just hopefully not as bad as some have made out. the potential for a huge additional disaster is there, but it appears that this is being averted for now.

some of the pictures and videos coming out are truly astonishing, the size and power of that amount of water is awesome

[Tazio]

Interesting points, especially since PTSD is something that has only recently been recognised as a disorder and something that can be treated. It has been thought of as something you just 'get over'. As recent portrayals in the likes of Coronation Street had a soldier coming back from war and had a few days of panic attacks, only to be suddenly all better once he's talked it through with his Mum.

Yes the worst thing you can do is isolate. I have a niece that went through it. I don't want to hijack the thread, just one more thing In the US the vast majority have symtoms start between mid twentys through mid 30's

[Mark]

There's an interesting article about the power plant situation here: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/03/14/fukushiima_analysis/

[Daniel]

Apparently the island of Honshu moved 2.4 metres due to the quake!

[Mark]

Apparently the island of Honshu moved 2.4 metres due to the quake!

Yep, there'll be some frantic resurveying to be done, 2.4 metres doesn't sound like much but it does make a difference to some applications.

[donKey jote]

There's an interesting article about the power plant situation here: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/03/14/fukushiima_analysis/

Yep. The events from a physicist's point of view: no big deal, specially compared to the scale of the human tragedy still unfolding. :s

Meanwhile I wonder whether all the nuclear sceptics, deniers and conspiracy theorists are all stocking up on iodine tablets "just in case" :p

[Tazio]

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/03/14/fukushiima_analysis/


Unfortunately it appears that the devastation from the quake and tsunami was sufficient that mobile power wasn't online at all the sites before the temperatures inside the cores began to climb seriously. At this stage the cores are sitting immersed in cooling water inside their terrifically thick and strong airtight containment vessels. As the water is not being circulated and cooled any more, it is getting hotter, turning to steam, and pressure is building inside the vessel. Left alone the vessel interior will presently become hot enough to start melting the tough alloy casings of the fuel rods, at which stage the interior will fill with long-half-life radioactive materials – and will thus have to be buttoned up tightly and abandoned for a long time,creating a mess U238 has a half life of 4.468 billion years.
donkey could you pass me the Iodine :p :

I'm a big promotor of Nuclear Power I didn't need the sales pitch on page 3 ;)

As soon as I put the finnishing touches on my cold fusion rector all problems will be resolved! :)

[Daniel]

El Reg isn't the most reliable of sites to read :P

[donKey jote]

One thing is clear though: it's not another Chernobyl and we all survived that... so far at least ;) :eek: :p

[donKey jote]

donkey could you pass me the Iodine :p :


eat plenty of fish... I hear Fugu is specially rich in iodine :p

[Tazio]

eat plenty of fish... I hear Fugu is specially rich in iodine :p

I'll settle for Iocain Powder.
Then all of my worries will be over :bandit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yqWtvBVG1s&feature=fvwrel

[Mark]

Two nuclear experts on BBC now. One saying that it isn't a particularly big issue and a lack of electricity for hospitals and critical services is a much more pressing health issue.

The other says it's a complete nuclear catastrophy!

[BDunnell]

This is very insignificant, I know, but can't the thread title be changed to spell 'earthquake' correctly?

[steveaki13]

With all of the aftershocks still being felt in Japan, there has to be a fear that if the fragile fault area which slipped to cause the main earthquake is still unstable (hence aftershocks), then if it finally gives and slides again, it could all happen again.

Most aftershocks are the adjustment of the ground around faults after the main quake as land settles into its new configeration, but the main quake I assume doesn't always mean the fault has reached its final resting place.

Doesn't bare thinking about.

[schmenke]

The entire nation of Japan is now effectively shut down. As a major trading partner with the rest of the world, the effects of this catastrophe are now being felt in many other nations.
I’m currently working on a project where we have some specialty-spec steel on order from a mill in Japan which is now closed due to evacuations because of radiation concerns. The only other mill capable of producing this steel is also in Japan but is also out of commission because it’s on fire :s
Unless one of these mills can come back on line soon, our project, along with a production of 30,000 barrels of bitumen per day, will be in jeopardy :mark:

[Rollo]

The BBC World Service reported this morning perhaps not surprisingly that White Day sales this year have totally slumped.

Retail sales might be only a blip on the markets, but with potential insurance claims running into the billions, that will appreciate the Yen even further. Although rebuilding the country might boost aggregate demand, it's still very much a case of the Broken Window Fallacy in action.

[Tazio]

Two nuclear experts on BBC now. One saying that it isn't a particularly big issue and a lack of electricity for hospitals and critical services is a much more pressing health issue.

The other says it's a complete nuclear catastrophy!

There is going to a lot of disinformation,
most of it leaning to the sensational.
My qualifications are I passed lower division physic as a science requirement and received a B.
There is little doubt in my mind that some small amount of radioactive Isotopes were released into the atmosphere, they have admitted that gas with cesium in it was vented.
All I have to say is if this happened in the USA the lawyers would go on a feeding frenzy. If anyone in close proximity developed cancer it would be a slam dunk for a settlement for the next 25 years. If that is the extent of the event, it is practically nothing as I believe the wind was blowing off shore.
If it was a serious breach we would already have seen video evidence of people puking. In the context of exposure right now it would be a very small amount maybe not even as bad as Three Mile Island. It is going to be a while before we find out, and it may be never.

[Dave B]

Some amazing satellite images, truly shocking:

http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n1103/14japan/

[Roamy]

I think in the next two days they will have the nuclear plants under control. this is quite sad. I am surprised more did not perish but just the same over 10k is devastating. As the world turns we will probably be next and we have a couple of outdated nuke plants as well. If there could possibly be a good outcome from this it will be what we learn about nuke plant construction and building construction. I understand the new buildings did very well in the earthquake. I don't suppose much will do good in a tsunami. I was pretty amazed at the amount of flex built in to the towers.

[Robinho]

its appears not to be the case, another explosion and a fire and a release of radiation significant to be enough to endager human health. this Nuclear thing is growing into a very real and significant problem. No, its no chernobyl, but i think its shaping up to be be more and more of a serious issue.

[chuck34]

I think in the next two days they will have the nuclear plants under control. this is quite sad. I am surprised more did not perish but just the same over 10k is devastating. As the world turns we will probably be next and we have a couple of outdated nuke plants as well. If there could possibly be a good outcome from this it will be what we learn about nuke plant construction and building construction. I understand the new buildings did very well in the earthquake. I don't suppose much will do good in a tsunami. I was pretty amazed at the amount of flex built in to the towers.

Sadly, no good will come of this. The anti-nuke crowd is having a field day with this non-event. The news media is full of hysterics about "melt-downs" and radiation sickness, and the like. There hasn't been a nuclear plant come on line in the US since 1979 (didn't look it up going off memory, could be wrong). And I don't see any new one's coming on line for quite a long time in the future. Can't you just see all the protests that will happen if someone so much as thinks about building one? It really is sad how ignorant and fearful the population is about nuclear power and radiation in general. How many people died as a result of radiation at Three Mile Island?

It strikes me as funny all the people on the TV and radio that are all up in arms about the "nuclear melt down" in Japan, they're all worried about everyone growing a third eye or something. Those are the same people that will shout you down as "anti-science" if you dare question Global Warming. But yeah, there's no political agenda in the media.

[chuck34]

Slight correction. It appears that the Watts Bar Unit I reactor in Tennessee came on-line in 1996. However, construction began in 1973!! Unit II also began construction in '73, and might be completed in 2012.

[Tazio]

Chuck,
Thanks for inviting the entire anti-Nuclear power group to the party :dozey:
I can't think of anything more antagonistic.
As someone that is a promoter of Nuclear power. I can only suggest that you not start a fight here on this thread.
You have acted like someone that is looking for a one.
You could at least wait for one post before you got on your high horse!

[Mark]

I don't see anything wrong with what Chuck was saying, in fact I think he's spot on.

[Tazio]

The anti-nuke crowd is having a field day with this non-event
I'm sorry I meant ignorant!

[Dave B]

Sadly, no good will come of this. The anti-nuke crowd is having a field day with this non-event.
There's some truth in what you say. "Nuclear" is a dirty word to some people, they have an inherent distrust in the technology and an event like this is all the "proof" they need that nuclear power is dangerous :s

[Roamy]

There's some truth in what you say. "Nuclear" is a dirty word to some people, they have an inherent distrust in the technology and an event like this is all the "proof" they need that nuclear power is dangerous :s

well if you are going to let the muslims have nukes then you may as well build a nuke powerplant on every river and run total electric cars. it only a matter of time until we will be glowing so who really cares!!

[GridGirl]

Only 112 posts until there is an anti muslim rant from one of the usual suspects. :rolleyes: Back on topic please...... :)

[Roamy]

the statement contained nuclear comments so go back to your knitting room and make someone a sweater

[GridGirl]

I suggest that you start a new thread if you want to talk about nuclear weapons and muslims which I can only assume is the tangent you want to drag this topic off too. This thread should remain related to the Japanese earthquake, tsunami and related issues. It does not need to be filled with anti-muslim drivel.

[chuck34]

Chuck,
Thanks for inviting the entire anti-Nuclear power group to the party :dozey:
I can't think of anything more antagonistic.
As someone that is a promoter of Nuclear power. I can only suggest that you not start a fight here on this thread.
You have acted like someone that is looking for a one.
You could at least wait for one post before you got on your high horse!

I'm sorry if I have offended you. But I am FAR from the first person to bring nuclear power policy on this board or in the media as a whole. I think a rational discussion about the dangers (real and imagined) from this type of accident is quite on topic for this thread. If you feel differently, I'm sorry. We don't all have the same opinions about everything.

[Roamy]

yea and if you don't think nuclear is part of this then jump on a plane and get up there so you can suck a cloud!!

[Dave B]

On the subject of paranoid ranting, how's thus for a perfect example if the knee-jerk scaremongering that chuck was alluding to:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/mar/15/nuclear-earthquake-tsunami-energy-industry?mobile-redirect=false

[GridGirl]

well if you are going to let the muslims have nukes then you may as well build a nuke powerplant on every river and run total electric cars. it only a matter of time until we will be glowing so who really cares!!

I have no issue with a discussion about nuclear power. I just see no valid reason why you need to mention muslims in this particular thread. I'll be happy if you can keep the thread on topic and not start with your anti-muslim drivel. :)

[Tazio]

I'm sorry if I have offended you. But I am FAR from the first person to bring nuclear power policy on this board or in the media as a whole. I think a rational discussion about the dangers (real and imagined) from this type of accident is quite on topic for this thread. If you feel differently, I'm sorry. We don't all have the same opinions about everything.
Chuck, I apologies for reacting so aggressively to your comment. I had just rolled out of bed, and I could only find my broken reading glasses, and it pissed me off. I'm from another generation, and I really don't care about what dimwits think, because they have very intelligent people that are relied upon to make the decisions. the general populous is invited to the conversation, but the only affect that I can think of where their ignorance would affect the policies is if the determining factor of an elected official was campaigning on a platform that included promising that we would shut down Nuclear generators. Once in office the smart guys are going to say you were joking about that part right? And he would acquiesce in a heart-beat. As for general hysteria I would recommend that those people have a double-shot of the Kool-aide :beer:

[chuck34]

Chuck, I apologies for reacting so aggressively to your comment. I had just rolled out of bed, and I could only find my broken reading glasses, and it pissed me off. I'm from another generation, and I really don't care about what dimwits think, because they have very intelligent people that are relied upon to make the decisions. the general populous is invited to the conversation, but the only affect that I can think of where their ignorance would affect the policies is if the determining factor of an elected official was campaigning on a platform that included promising that we would shut down Nuclear generators. Once in office the smart guys are going to say you were joking about that part right? And he would acquiesce in a heart-beat. As for general hysteria I would recommend that those people have a double-shot of the Kool-aide :beer:

Don't worry about it, no big deal. I try not to let any of this get to me in the "real world", only in the "net world" do I get riled up or anything. It's all in good fun anyway.

But I do believe that the ignorance of the general populous affects decisions of the elected officials. All the protests of ignorant (I mean that in the uninformed sense) people back in the 70's and 80's are the exact reason why it takes 23+ years to complete a nuclear reactor in the US, and that's if they see the project through to completion. I would put the safety record of the nuclear power generation industry up against any other industry and bet that the nukes come out ahead. The possible exception being the space program, but if I really set down and thought about it, they may be pretty equal. Anyway, the fact that we do not have more nuclear plants in this country, and the fact that we do not reprocess the fuel, should really be the shame of this nation (yeah that might be a bit of hyperbole, but not by much).

And I need a double-shot of something, but it's not Kool-Aide :) :beer:

[donKey jote]

It really is sad how ignorant and fearful the population is about nuclear power and radiation in general. How many people died as a result of radiation at Three Mile Island?
Yep. Although the same could be said of science in general.


It strikes me as funny all the people on the TV and radio that are all up in arms about the "nuclear melt down" in Japan, they're all worried about everyone growing a third eye or something. Those are the same people that will shout you down as "anti-science" if you dare question Global Warming. But yeah, there's no political agenda in the media.
I for one listen to the physicists (not the media or politicians) with respect both to nuclear power and Global Warming. ;)

Still, I wouldn't want to be downwind of Fukushima at the moment, or my donkey rationality might give way to my donkey leg it instinct, physics or no physics :p

[Daniel]

ut I do believe that the ignorance of the general populous affects decisions of the elected officials. All the protests of ignorant (I mean that in the uninformed sense) people back in the 70's and 80's are the exact reason why it takes 23+ years to complete a nuclear reactor in the US, and that's if they see the project through to completion. I would put the safety record of the nuclear power generation industry up against any other industry and bet that the nukes come out ahead. The possible exception being the space program, but if I really set down and thought about it, they may be pretty equal. Anyway, the fact that we do not have more nuclear plants in this country, and the fact that we do not reprocess the fuel, should really be the shame of this nation (yeah that might be a bit of hyperbole, but not by much)

I don't know how accurate these figures are but if they are I have to laugh at the plonkers who are against nuclear power....... http://nextbigfuture.com/2008/03/deaths-per-twh-for-all-energy-sources.html

[Tazio]

Chuck, I apologies for reacting so aggressively to your comment. I had just rolled out of bed, and I could only find my broken reading glasses, and it pissed me off. I'm from another generation, and I really don't care about what dimwits think, because they have very intelligent people that are relied upon to make the decisions. the general populous is invited to the conversation, but the only affect that I can think of where their ignorance would affect the policies is if the determining factor of an elected official was campaigning on a platform that included promising that we would shut down Nuclear generators. Once in office the smart guys are going to say you were joking about that part right? And he would acquiesce in a heart-beat. As for general hysteria I would recommend that those people have a double-shot of the Kool-aide :beer:

I left out the best part

This is an image is san onofre nuclear generating station inbeteen LA And San Diego

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQkX6KAfAeBcK1QDK92uXH0FMTsriEi3 ipBLyEXxoetPLyJbVez

Affectionately referred to as the Dolly Parton Monument. :s ailor:

[Daniel]

Yep. Although the same could be said of science in general.


I for one listen to the physicists (not the media or politicians) with respect both to nuclear power and Global Warming. ;)

Still, I wouldn't want to be downwind of Fukushima at the moment, or my donkey rationality might give way to my donkey leg it instinct, physics or no physics :p

Of course you would move, the consequences of not moving are bad and the advantages of not moving aren't that great :p

[Tazio]

Don't worry about it, no big deal. I try not to let any of this get to me in the "real world", only in the "net world" do I get riled up or anything. It's all in good fun anyway.

But I do believe that the ignorance of the general populous affects decisions of the elected officials. All the protests of ignorant (I mean that in the uninformed sense) people back in the 70's and 80's are the exact reason why it takes 23+ years to complete a nuclear reactor in the US, and that's if they see the project through to completion. I would put the safety record of the nuclear power generation industry up against any other industry and bet that the nukes come out ahead. The possible exception being the space program, but if I really set down and thought about it, they may be pretty equal. Anyway, the fact that we do not have more nuclear plants in this country, and the fact that we do not reprocess the fuel, should really be the shame of this nation (yeah that might be a bit of hyperbole, but not by much).

And I need a double-shot of something, but it's not Kool-Aide :) :beer:
That was before Scientists were concerned with global warming. I saw that as a natural evolution. Plus my power bill was always reasonable; my main concern beside the people exposed is more deforestation. Actually the way that they process and burn coal now it is super efferent I got to look at the facility in Las Vegas and they grind the coal up until it is the consistency of graphite powder and ignite it while exiting a bunch of these thing that look like a fuel injector for a car.
Now that you can read the paper in Japan at night, because of this unfortunate development, there will have to be re-evaluation of the older facilities,
Talk about your perfect storm. Of course (did I just say that?) I'm sure that whatever happens will be misrepresented by the press.
If Japan completely melts it will be reported that Korea melted too :(

[markabilly]

Things seem to be getting much worse in Japan. From prior history with these things, these reactors seem to be doing a slow meltdown whle the others went off much faster.
The result from the others has never been properly analyzed.......

http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/03/14/6268351-clearing-up-nuclear-questions


as to the mess in the Ukraine

one report says the Chernobyl problems were not as bad as perceived:


http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/releases/2005/pr38/en/index.html


others say different

http://www.greenpeace.org/international/en/news/features/chernobyl-deaths-180406/

http://www.greenpeace.org/international/Global/international/planet-2/report/2006/4/chernobylhealthreport.pdf

http://inmotion.magnumphotos.com/essay/chernobyl

[Bob Riebe]

Finally one of the "experts" on TV said what should have been said long ago, to paraphrase-- No one has died from the nuclear problems, thousands never will.
Thousands have died from other causes and the news networks ignore this while blathering about dooms-day nuclear scenarios. The Japanese people do not need this, but they do need our help that is what they should be covering.

[Rollo]

NHK has been reporting that it's difficult to get the basics such as food, clothing and even clean water to people when entire road and rail networks have been destroyed entirely.

I am incredibly impressed with the incredible discipline of the people of Japan. Even when queuing for water and food in areas affected, they still form orderly queues despite being in a situation of utter desperation.


Finally one of the "experts" on TV said what should have been said long ago, to paraphrase-- No one has died from the nuclear problems, thousands never will.

Probably not, but it doesn't mean that being cautious isn't valuable either.


Thousands have died from other causes and the news networks ignore this while blathering about dooms-day nuclear scenarios. The Japanese people do not need this, but they do need our help that is what they should be covering.

Amen to this. The best thing that we can do in the West right now is donate monies to people like the Red Cross and Oxfam, and convince our governments to do likewise. Write your local MP a letter and demand a 1% increase in Tax to send to the people of Japan.

[chuck34]

Actually the way that they process and burn coal now it is super efferent I got to look at the facility in Las Vegas and they grind the coal up until it is the consistency of graphite powder and ignite it while exiting a bunch of these thing that look like a fuel injector for a car.

Short, or maybe long, story here. I'm a Mechanical Engineer. I went to a university that had a large focus on thermodynamics. As you can imagine when studying thermo, power generation is a point of focus. Part of one of our classes we got to go into a power plant. At the time (don't know if it still is or not) it was the most efficient coal fired plant in the country, if not the world. They used the exact process you described of pulverizing the coal and then injecting it into the furnace. They also had the most advanced scrubbers so that there was basically no "evil carbon emmisions" coming from the plant. All that "smoke" you see comming from "smoke stacks" is just steam.

Funny part is, it was built as a nuclear plant. Everything was built, finnished, and ready to go. They actually had the fuel rods on site. But because of all regulations and red tape involved they decided that it would be more cost effective to scrap the nuclear part, start from basically scratch, and build the coal plant. So I have actually stood inside a nuclear reactor. It was a cool deal.

[Rollo]

I went to a university that had a large focus on thermodynamics. As you can imagine when studying thermo, power generation is a point of focus. Part of one of our classes we got to go into a power plant. At the time (don't know if it still is or not) it was the most efficient coal fired plant in the country, if not the world. They used the exact process you described of pulverizing the coal and then injecting it into the furnace. They also had the most advanced scrubbers so that there was basically no "evil carbon emmisions" coming from the plant. All that "smoke" you see comming from "smoke stacks" is just steam.

You do realise that the way you extract energy out of coal is by burning it right?

In a coal fired power station the coal is burned and turbines are spun as a result of turning water into either steam or a superheated fluid. Whether it's coal, petrol, CNG, LPG, whatever the basic equation for this will be similar to :

coal + fire (oxidization) --> water + carbon dioxide + junk
Coal (lots and lots of Cs plus residual Ss, Hs etc.) + 02 --> H20 + CO2 + Ss Hs etc.


Short, or maybe long, story here. I'm a Mechanical Engineer.

A coal fired power station is a chemical combustion jobbie. All combustion equations are exothermic and oxidization reactions. Grant that what you do see coming out of cooling towers is water vapour, but at some point all of that oxidized carbon has to come out somewhere.

[chuck34]

I don't want to sound like an arrogant prat here, but I probably will ....


You do realise that the way you extract energy out of coal is by burning it right?

I just got done telling you that I'm an engineer who studied these things in school, and you immediately ask me if I know how a coal plant works? Really? Do you understand what a furnace is? I refered to that in my post "injecting pulverized coal into the furnace".


In a coal fired power station the coal is burned and turbines are spun as a result of turning water into either steam or a superheated fluid. Whether it's coal, petrol, CNG, LPG, whatever the basic equation for this will be similar to :

coal + fire (oxidization) --> water + carbon dioxide + junk
Coal (lots and lots of Cs plus residual Ss, Hs etc.) + 02 --> H20 + CO2 + Ss Hs etc.

Yes of course. That's the basic physics. Ss's? Hs's? What about the Ns's? There is also a lot of wasted heat involved, the steam you see coming out of the stacks, as well as other areas of heat transfer. Each time you convert energy from one form to another (very basically stored in the coal to heat ... heat to steam ... steam to work ... work to electricty) there are losses.


A coal fired power station is a chemical combustion jobbie. All combustion equations are exothermic and oxidization reactions. Grant that what you do see coming out of cooling towers is water vapour, but at some point all of that oxidized carbon has to come out somewhere.

A "combustion jobbie"? Is that the technical term? Have you ever heard of scrubbers? Have any clue what they do? How they work? What is done with the byproducts?

[Dave B]

Didn't take long for the scammers to surface, did it? :rolleyes:


In one scam, Facebook criminals are claiming to have “crazy footage” of a massive tsunami wave launching a whale into a building in Japan, according to researchers at the security firm Sophos. The video is being spread via links in wall posts, and is labeled crazytsunamivid.info.

Crazy, scandalous videos always drum up curiosity on the Internet, and social networking scammers are well aware of this. Users who are tempted to see the extraordinary whale video, called “Japanese Tsunami Launches Whale Into Building,” are taken to a site called FouTube.com.

When they click on what they think will be the video, they immediately become victims of a “likejacking” scam, in which they silently “like” the Facebook video and spread it via wall posts to their friends. And after all that work, there is no video.

Source and full story: http://www.securitynewsdaily.com/fake-tsunami-whale-just-a-big-facebook-scam-0607/

[Tazio]

Short, or maybe long, story here. I'm a Mechanical Engineer. I went to a university that had a large focus on thermodynamics. As you can imagine when studying thermo, power generation is a point of focus. Part of one of our classes we got to go into a power plant. At the time (don't know if it still is or not) it was the most efficient coal fired plant in the country, if not the world. They used the exact process you described of pulverizing the coal and then injecting it into the furnace. They also had the most advanced scrubbers so that there was basically no "evil carbon emmisions" coming from the plant. All that "smoke" you see comming from "smoke stacks" is just steam.

Funny part is, it was built as a nuclear plant. Everything was built, finnished, and ready to go. They actually had the fuel rods on site. But because of all regulations and red tape involved they decided that it would be more cost effective to scrap the nuclear part, start from basically scratch, and build the coal plant. So I have actually stood inside a nuclear reactor. It was a cool deal. I will not delude myself, and I am also not an idiot. The US is a large place I think that we (America) would be foolish to not use
this asset to compliment our other more environmental friendly resources that we have lagged upon because we have so much carbon based fuel. I think that if we are going to ban carbon based fuel we need to ban camp fires and Barbeques as well!
I’m all for total elimination of carbon based fuel but we have to get up to speed before we do.
There is politics involved and if for no other reason we need to at the very least maintain the system and in the not too distant future only have it to fall back on.

[Tazio]

Didn't take long for the scammers to surface, did it? :rolleyes:


Source and full story: http://www.securitynewsdaily.com/fake-tsunami-whale-just-a-big-facebook-scam-0607/
Why am I not surprised?

[chuck34]

I will not delude myself, and I am also not an idiot. The US is a large place I think that we (America) would be foolish to not use
this asset to compliment our other more environmental friendly resources that we have lagged upon because we have so much carbon based fuel. I think that if we are going to ban carbon based fuel we need to ban camp fires and Barbeques as well!
I’m all for total elimination of carbon based fuel but we have to get up to speed before we do.
There is politics involved and if for no other reason we need to at the very least maintain the system and in the not too distant future only have it to fall back on.

Very well said. I am also for "moving forward". But we must do it in an economical and logical way. We can't let irrational fears get in the way of things like nuclear power. That being said we also can't overpromise their capability or safety (even though they are safer than many other things, nothing is 100% safe). We also can not eliminate one souce of power without having it's replacement up and running. That is unless we want to "necessarily raise energy prices" as some want.

Anyway I suppose I've helped in dragging this topic too far from the orignal topic of what is going on in Japan currently. I didn't want to make this all about energy, but some discussion was warranted I feel.

[donKey jote]

Have you ever heard of scrubbers? Have any clue what they do? How they work? What is done with the byproducts?
now now, no need to bring markabilly's missus into it :devil: :eek: :erm: :p

[BDunnell]

I'm a Mechanical Engineer.

Here is someone who is not.

http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201103140039

[markabilly]

now now, no need to bring markabilly's missus into it :devil: :eek: :erm: :p

Please show more respect for your momma

[markabilly]

Finally one of the "experts" on TV said what should have been said long ago, to paraphrase-- No one has died from the nuclear problems, thousands never will.
Thousands have died from other causes and the news networks ignore this while blathering about dooms-day nuclear scenarios. The Japanese people do not need this, but they do need our help that is what they should be covering.

Just remeber to NOT drink the milk while in northern japan. cows are notorious for eating grass and putting the fall out into their milk--which was the big incentive for the ban on atmosphere testing of nukes in the early 1960's as it seemed milk the world over was becoming contamidated.

As to no one dying, I guess you mean in Japan, and not elsewhere, of course excluding two bombs dropped in 1945.

Seems some Europeans are not listening:




The European Union's energy chief, Guenther Oettinger, told the European Parliament that the plant was "effectively out of control" after breakdowns in the facility's cooling system.
"In the coming hours there could be further catastrophic events, which could pose a threat to the lives of people on the island," Oettinger said.

At one point, national broadcaster NHK showed military helicopters lifting off to survey radiation levels above the complex, preparing to dump water onto the most troubled reactors in a desperate effort to cool them down. The defense ministry later said it said it had decided against making an airborne drop because of the high radiation levels



http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42103972/ns/world_news-asiapacific/?GT1=43001


Seems they are trying to get power back to the stations to make the cooling systems become operational, so perhaps things will get better

Personally, I have been in favor of the use of nuclear power for years, but not in favor of the appearant lack of common sense often used in the process, such as putting a nuke plant right by the ocean in a high risk area for earthquakes.......or anywhere else where the ground dances as often as it does in places like japan or california.

Then add politics to the issues and it only goes downhill from there :rolleyes:

[Roamy]

well I don't know how much water they need but what I do know is you can pump a hell of a lot of water with a big generator.

[Dave B]

well I don't know how much water they need but what I do know is you can pump a hell of a lot of water with a big generator.

It's like the BP disaster all over again. Hundreds of experienced and skilled experts from all over the world working on a solution, while some armchair poster or caller to a radio phone-in chimes in with his opinion. Like there's a collective slapping of foreheads as a hundred scientists go "of course, GENERATORS. Why didn't we think of that?"

[BDunnell]

It's like the BP disaster all over again. Hundreds of experienced and skilled experts from all over the world working on a solution, while some armchair poster or caller to a radio phone-in chimes in with his opinion. Like there's a collective slapping of foreheads as a hundred scientists go "of course, GENERATORS. Why didn't we think of that?"

Exactly. I recall an elderly woman calling Radio Norfolk after the Russian submarine Kursk sank, offering the view that if the world's navies wanted to avoid this happening again, they should build submarines "that if they sink, float up to the top again". Why give these people with their ill-formed opinions any credence at all?

[markabilly]

It's like the BP disaster all over again. Hundreds of experienced and skilled experts from all over the world working on a solution, while some armchair poster or caller to a radio phone-in chimes in with his opinion. Like there's a collective slapping of foreheads as a hundred scientists go "of course, GENERATORS. Why didn't we think of that?"

yep, it is better to rely on all those papered up P-H-D-s with many a diploma hanging on the wall, with an IQ over 225, who can not figure out why they should not put nukes where they did, and can not figure out how to dump water where it can do some good......those helicopters look pretty silly dropping water that was dissipating long before it hit the ground.


No doubt I would have thought they would have a big massive emergency diesel powered generator right near by, just like many hospitals---HELL EVEN JAILS IN USA HAVE-- to power up and keep things going.....but if they did, it must have been damaged by the ocean tsumani flooding out everything, cause it was too close to the ocean OPPPSSS!!!

Guess they need some more PHDs

Or perhaps one of those mobile generators the size of an 18 wheeler.....
but in japan, it is all about "saving face"


And the woman about the sub was right, and they do, it is called emergency ballast. Unfortunately, nobody has thought enough about how to do it when they have a big hole where the emergency ballast is suppose to use for its operation....

But God bless those poor wrokers who are brave up enough to be getting so close to that mess and trying to do something, unlike their bosses and others who should have never made it necessary to put them in the path of such danger.

:rolleyes:

[Mark]

Of course it's very easy to say "Well they should have done xyz", after the event. Having no understanding of the situation whatsoever!

[DexDexter]

Seeing those helicopters drop water onto the plant looks really useless, it seems to spread all over the place. I guess they'are just out of options. I bet some of the workers will die of radioation sickness, that's just sadly bound to happen.


Exactly. I recall an elderly woman calling Radio Norfolk after the Russian submarine Kursk sank, offering the view that if the world's navies wanted to avoid this happening again, they should build submarines "that if they sink, float up to the top again". Why give these people with their ill-formed opinions any credence at all?

Welcome to the 21st century, that's how things are these days. I mean you read a (serious) online article and below any fool can make a stupid comment about the matter and everyone sees it.

[Mark]

Seeing those helicopters drop water onto the plant looks really useless, it seems to spread all over the place.

The same happens with forest fires, why do they bother? Because the water spreads out such that it can't be easily resolved by the camera! The vast majority of the water gets to where it's going.


I bet some of the workers will die of radioation sickness, that's just bound to happen.

Lets hope not. But there's no indication they've been exposed to that kind of dose yet.

[DexDexter]

The same happens with forest fires, why do they bother? Because the water spreads out such that it can't be easily resolved by the camera! The vast majority of the water gets to where it's going.



Lets hope not. But there's no indication they've been exposed to that kind of dose yet.

I don't know. Interestingly folks at the BBC, experts included, seem to view the Japanese efforts in a much more positive light than local experts here in Finland. One stated days ago that the core would melt and that seems to be the case at least in some of the reactors.

[MrJan]

Exactly. I recall an elderly woman calling Radio Norfolk after the Russian submarine Kursk sank, offering the view that if the world's navies wanted to avoid this happening again, they should build submarines "that if they sink, float up to the top again". Why give these people with their ill-formed opinions any credence at all?

Yep, there's your problem :D :p :

[BDunnell]

Welcome to the 21st century, that's how things are these days. I mean you read a (serious) online article and below any fool can make a stupid comment about the matter and everyone sees it.

And think that their opinion, because it's their opinion, somehow has some validity.

[markabilly]

Of course it's very easy to say "Well they should have done xyz", after the event. Having no understanding of the situation whatsoever!

There is no excuse for what has happenned and it does not take a PhD to see why they should not have done what they did. Just a little common sense and foresight.

When dealing with nukes, there is no margin for error. No room for for silly mistakes. None.

and obviously, they failed to have an adequate plan to deal with the problems that they are faced with, leaving it to a few workers to put it all on the line to save others.

as I learned doue to personal health reasons and as any doctor in the field of using radiation in cancer treatment can tell you, Radiation effects takes two forms: There is the direct over-exposure, which results in hair loss, tissue and cell damages on the inside of the body similar to that of being badly burned, except that the fire is on the inside of the body rather than the outside. If the radiation is stopped at a certain point, the body will recover.

The second is far more problematic, and that is unseen damage to the DNA of cells. In older adults, that is not nearly that big of a problem but it may or may not cause cancer in some people, almost on a random basis.

For young children and esp. for fetuses, the dangers are far worse. There are not that many cells and they are still developing, such that DNA damage can lead to birth defects with the fetus and cancer in later life with children.

No excuse. And one does not need a Phd to see the obvious and use some common sense.

[DexDexter]

There is no excuse for what has happenned and it does not take a PhD to see why they should not have done what they did. Just a little common sense and foresight.

When dealing with nukes, there is no margin for error. No room for for silly mistakes. None.

and obviously, they failed to have an adequate plan to deal with the problems that they are faced with, leaving it to a few workers to put it all on the line to save others.

as I learned doue to personal health reasons and as any doctor in the field of using radiation in cancer treatment can tell you, Radiation effects takes two forms: There is the direct over-exposure, which results in hair loss, tissue and cell damages on the inside of the body similar to that of being badly burned, except that the fire is on the inside of the body rather than the outside. If the radiation is stopped at a certain point, the body will recover.

The second is far more problematic, and that is unseen damage to the DNA of cells. In older adults, that is not nearly that big of a problem but it may or may not cause cancer in some people, almost on a random basis.

For young children and esp. for fetuses, the dangers are far worse. There are not that many cells and they are still developing, such that DNA damage can lead to birth defects with the fetus and cancer in later life with children.

No excuse. And one does not need a Phd to see the obvious and use some common sense.


"IAEA warned Japan over nuclear quake risk: WikiLeaks"
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_asiapacific/view/1117031/1/.html

[Dave B]

There is no excuse for what has happenned and it does not take a PhD to see why they should not have done what they did. Just a little common sense and foresight....

No excuse. And one does not need a Phd to see the obvious and use some common sense.

Again. If Japan experiences any more tremors, fear not! They're not aftershocks, merely the sound of hundreds of engineers slapping their foreheads and wishing they had your foresight and wisdom. :rolleyes:

[ShiftingGears]

Again. If Japan experiences any more tremors, fear not! They're not aftershocks, merely the sound of hundreds of engineers slapping their foreheads and wishing they had your foresight and wisdom. :rolleyes:

I think he has a completely valid point. For one, not being able to pump actual coolant into the station should not be something that occurs. It is an Earthquake area, and natural disasters are always a distinct possibility in the lifetime of a nuclear power station in Japan. It is easy to say in retrospect, but the risk is simply too great. They should be prepared for the worst. And they weren't.

[markabilly]

Again. If Japan experiences any more tremors, fear not! They're not aftershocks, merely the sound of hundreds of engineers slapping their foreheads and wishing they had your foresight and wisdom. :rolleyes:

Yes you are so right. When a engineer PhD nuclear scientist physicist says it, it must be right.


Thank goodness that the people in charge are listening to those engineer PhDs nuclear scientist yahoos, because otherwise, we would have people building nuke plants in the middle of earthquake zones, next to oceans, without adequate safeguards and backups to prevent the obvious...... :up:

[BDunnell]

Yes you are so right. When a engineer PhD nuclear scientist physicist says it, it must be right.


Thank goodness that the people in charge are listening to those engineer PhDs nuclear scientist yahoos, because otherwise, we would have people building nuke plants in the middle of earthquake zones, next to oceans, without adequate safeguards and backups to prevent the obvious...... :up:

Blimey.

[Mark]

Well firstly, they need to be built next to the sea, for general cooling and for the emergency backup reasons we've just seen, if it were inland they wouldn't be able to cool it with seawater, and you'd be wondering why they didn't build it next to the sea!

Secondly, the earthquake now seems like a 9.0, much much higher than the 8.5 it was intended to withstand, and it's not just 0.5 higher, forgive my maths if I've got it wrong but it's more like five times the strength it was meant to withstand, so overall it's done well not to just fall apart completely.

[markabilly]

Well firstly, they need to be built next to the sea, for general cooling and for the emergency backup reasons we've just seen, if it were inland they wouldn't be able to cool it with seawater, and you'd be wondering why they didn't build it next to the sea!

Secondly, the earthquake now seems like a 9.0, much much higher than the 8.5 it was intended to withstand, and it's not just 0.5 higher, forgive my maths if I've got it wrong but it's more like five times the strength it was meant to withstand, so overall it's done well not to just fall apart completely.
there are plenty of other ways to cool the cores, and most plants have been built hundreds of miles away, some in very arid areas. Glen Rose texas for example

and if you going to design and build nukes, the need to be built fail safe for all sorts of expected and unexpected events. Do it rihgt or not at all.

problem is that i am big on the use of nuclear power
But this will set it back and reduce the chances of any more plants being built here for the next thirty years

[BDunnell]

Personally, I wouldn't even dare to suggest that those responsible didn't know what they were doing when they built the reactors where they built them, that they failed to have adequate post-disaster planning in place, or anything technical to do with exposure to radiation, on the quaint, old-fashioned grounds that I don't know anything about what are quite complex technical subjects and certainly wouldn't claim to have been able to do any better than the experts. But maybe that's just me.

[Dave B]

Here's a question that wiser heads may be able to answer. Would future coastal reactors benefit from being built in a pit of some kind, so that in the event of a disaster the pit could easily be flooded with seawater or filled with earth or concrete? Obviously the reactor would be destroyed, but would that provide a potential solution to this kind of problem?

Note that I ask this as a question, not propose it as a solution!

[Mark]

Dave, I would imagine flooding of the pit would be a major problem there. Of course most reactors are build underground anyway, I'm not sure about the Japan situation.

[DexDexter]

there are plenty of other ways to cool the cores, and most plants have been built hundreds of miles away, some in very arid areas. Glen Rose texas for example

and if you going to design and build nukes, the need to be built fail safe for all sorts of expected and unexpected events. Do it rihgt or not at all.

problem is that i am big on the use of nuclear power
But this will set it back and reduce the chances of any more plants being built here for the next thirty years

Don't think for a minute that the US plants are better prepared for a disaster than the Japanese ones, because they are not.

"Nobody's ever prepared for this kind of earthquake, but compared to Japan, probably we're not nearly as prepared as Japan," Tom Heaton, an engineering seismologist at Cal Tech, told Blackstone.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/03/14/earlyshow/main20042815.shtml

[Mark]

Don't think for a minute that the US plants are better prepared for a disaster than the Japanese ones, because they are not.

"Nobody's ever prepared for this kind of earthquake, but compared to Japan, probably we're not nearly as prepared as Japan," Tom Heaton, an engineering seismologist at Cal Tech, told Blackstone.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/03/14/earlyshow/main20042815.shtml

And they don't need to be, as with all safety requirements you need to weigh the likelyhood of an event happening vs the consequences and, ultimately, the cost.

There's no point in building reactors on the East coast of the US to Japanese standards as a large earthquake is highly unlikely.

And you can't plan for unexpected events, it's mathematically impossible, if you've planned for it, then it's expected.

[DexDexter]

And they don't need to be, as with all safety requirements you need to weigh the likelyhood of an event happening vs the consequences and, ultimately, the cost.

There's no point in building reactors on the East coast of the US to Japanese standards as a large earthquake is highly unlikely.

And you can't plan for unexpected events, it's mathematically impossible, if you've planned for it, then it's expected.

That's the core of the problem with nuclear power. Most nuclear reactors in the world will not survive a passenger plane crash/terrorist attack, for example. If the unexpected happens, results can be catastrophic.


And they don't need to be, as with all safety requirements you need to weigh the likelyhood of an event happening vs the consequences and, ultimately, the cost.

There's no point in building reactors on the East coast of the US to Japanese standards as a large earthquake is highly unlikely.

And you can't plan for unexpected events, it's mathematically impossible, if you've planned for it, then it's expected.

The ones in the West Coast could well face a similar situation to Fukushima, San Onofre for example.

[Retro Formula 1]

Here's a question that wiser heads may be able to answer. Would future coastal reactors benefit from being built in a pit of some kind, so that in the event of a disaster the pit could easily be flooded with seawater or filled with earth or concrete? Obviously the reactor would be destroyed, but would that provide a potential solution to this kind of problem?

Note that I ask this as a question, not propose it as a solution!

The problem we have here is that the Fuel Rods are the problem and not the reactor itself as I understand it.

When the rods are removed from the reactor, things slow down pretty quickly and as long as the rods are kept in water, they behave themself. You can use other materials like Boron to assist but Water is the main containment. With dry reactors things like Graphite are used as in Chenobyl.

With the current situation, the water tanks are not full. Whether evaporated, damaged or the water has been used for cooling the reactors I don't know but they are exposed and emitting Gamma which is not good at all. There is also a possibility of fussion reaction. This won't be a explosion but is very dangerous netherless and what the main worry is.

The tanks are normally above the reactor below the roof so getting them filled is difficult and it would have to be a bloody big hole to cover them. Cement is no good as it just caps the problem and doesn't stop it.

[Retro Formula 1]

And you can't plan for unexpected events, it's mathematically impossible, if you've planned for it, then it's expected.

I disagree Mark.

You may not know what specific disaster might happen but you have contingency and continuity plans in place for types of interuption. These plans will be practices consistently and robustly so any event has a recovery procedure ingrained in the working culture of the plant.

Those processes kicked in the moment the Earthquake hit and are still in place during a very fluid and volitile situation.

[Dave B]

There's an unhelpful idiot on BBC Radio 2 screaming that it's not good enough to be told that a meltdown is "unlikely", she wants absolutes. This is the degree of public mistrust and misunderstanding of nuclear power, and science in general.

[chuck34]

Man there are a lot of "experts" on nuclear power around now, on this board and in the media. I was watching CNN this morning and saw the lead Federal investigator from the Three Mile Island incident (sorry forget his name) being interviewed. The lady interviewing him asked him a question like "how long will these guys that are trying to save the plant going to live now?". You could tell she fully expected him to say something like days or weeks. But he didn't. He told the truth. Something like, They have only a slightly increased risk of some forms of cancer, but they will be monitored and tested frequently for the rest of their lives, and in the unlikely event that they do develop something, they'll get treatment early. They will live basically normal lives. The lady interviewing him was almost mad about it! She had a story all planned out about how these people were all going to sprout a third arm and then die a painful death.

Then we have people talking about "melt downs". Does anyone know what a melt down is? What it's effects are? Think beyond the media's hysterics about MELT DOWN!!! WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!!!!!!! The risk of a melt down almost a week after the reaction has been shut down is pretty close to zero.

The real risk in this situation seems to be the spent fuel rods. The cooling to them has been interrupted. That isn't an ideal situation, obviously. But the risks don't seem to be too high either. Yes there is some risk to the immediate area (probably about 10km at most?). But unless another string of very unlikely events starts to happen, the risk to the US is almost zero, and Tokyo is only slightly higher than that.

It seems that people think we live in a radiation free environment. Far from it. Some quick reading that might make you think.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_equivalent_dose

Then we have other people (who I'd bet have never designed complicated systems involving risk assessment) claiming that the Japaneese should have designed this plant better. Let me tell you from experience that the Japaneese culture is one of being very risk adverse. Their engineers are very conservative. They do fault tree analysis of EVERY possible eventuality. While I don't know first hand, it seems this plant was designed for an 8.5 quake with a tsunami (don't know how big) to follow. That means that they did statistical analysis of the risk of earthquakes and determined that the bigest likely scenario was what they designed for. Sure they could have designed for this scenario, but then something bigger could have happened, or happened just enough differently for things to go "bad". You just can not design a system that is fool-proof. That goes for any system, not just nuclear reactors. You can not design the risk out of life. It just doesn't work that way.

Life's hard. Wear a helmet. :)

[Tazio]

Man there are a lot of "experts" on nuclear power around now, on this board and in the media. I was watching CNN this morning and saw the lead Federal investigator from the Three Mile Island incident (sorry forget his name) being interviewed. The lady interviewing him asked him a question like "how long will these guys that are trying to save the plant going to live now?". You could tell she fully expected him to say something like days or weeks. But he didn't. He told the truth. Something like, They have only a slightly increased risk of some forms of cancer, but they will be monitored and tested frequently for the rest of their lives, and in the unlikely event that they do develop something, they'll get treatment early. They will live basically normal lives. The lady interviewing him was almost mad about it! She had a story all planned out about how these people were all going to sprout a third arm and then die a painful death.

Then we have people talking about "melt downs". Does anyone know what a melt down is? What it's effects are? Think beyond the media's hysterics about MELT DOWN!!! WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!!!!!!! The risk of a melt down almost a week after the reaction has been shut down is pretty close to zero.

The real risk in this situation seems to be the spent fuel rods. The cooling to them has been interrupted. That isn't an ideal situation, obviously. But the risks don't seem to be too high either. Yes there is some risk to the immediate area (probably about 10km at most?). But unless another string of very unlikely events starts to happen, the risk to the US is almost zero, and Tokyo is only slightly higher than that.

It seems that people think we live in a radiation free environment. Far from it. Some quick reading that might make you think.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_equivalent_dose

Then we have other people (who I'd bet have never designed complicated systems involving risk assessment) claiming that the Japaneese should have designed this plant better. Let me tell you from experience that the Japaneese culture is one of being very risk adverse. Their engineers are very conservative. They do fault tree analysis of EVERY possible eventuality. While I don't know first hand this plant was designed for an 8.5 quake with a tsunami (don't know how big) to follow. That means that they did statistical analysis of the risk of earthquakes and determined that the bigest likely scenario was what the designed for. Sure they could have designed for this scenario, but then something bigger could have happened, or happened just enough differently for things to go "bad". You just can not design a system that is fool-proof. That goes for any system, not just nuclear reactors. You can not design the risk out of life. It just doesn't work that way.

Life's hard. Wear a helmet. :)
The Kool-aide, Swill it! :beer:

[Mark]

I disagree Mark.

You may not know what specific disaster might happen but you have contingency and continuity plans in place for types of interuption. These plans will be practices consistently and robustly so any event has a recovery procedure ingrained in the working culture of the plant.

Those processes kicked in the moment the Earthquake hit and are still in place during a very fluid and volitile situation.

But if you've planned for it, then it's expected, even if it's highly unlikely. e.g. You could plan for the eventuality that aliens from the planet Volgon magic the reactor away into space, that would be expected if you've planned for it!

[Retro Formula 1]

Man there are a lot of "experts" on nuclear power around now, on this board and in the media.

Thanks. Nice to be appreciated :)


Then we have people talking about "melt downs". Does anyone know what a melt down is? What it's effects are? Think beyond the media's hysterics about MELT DOWN!!! WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!!!!!!! The risk of a melt down almost a week after the reaction has been shut down is pretty close to zero.

The real risk in this situation seems to be the spent fuel rods. The cooling to them has been interrupted. That isn't an ideal situation, obviously. But the risks don't seem to be too high either.

Meltdown is unlikely as you say because hopefully there is no fuel in the reactor. The rods which will be in various degrees of decay will be in the cooling pools. These pose the greatest risk in my opinion and the risk is significant.

[Roamy]

I think we should use our space technology to sent the nuclear waste to pluto. It is nice and cold there and with our help in thousands of years maybe something would grow there.

[Mark]

They should of course build a nuclear power station on the moon. It's a long way off but you can get quite long extension leads at B&Q.

[Retro Formula 1]

They should of course build a nuclear power station on the moon. It's a long way off but you can get quite long extension leads at B&Q.

Are you mad? We have had enough Nuclear fall-out from the continuing Melt Down on the Sun. ;)

[Dave B]

Continuing the "everybody's an expert" theme, here's a comment from a Daily Mail article (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1367125/Japan-tsunami-Fukushima-Fifty-suicide-mission-battle-nuclear-meltdown.html) which I sincerly hope isn't intended to be taken seriously:



Quite possibly the best chance they have of containing this meltdown is taking snow from the mountains of Japan, and building a makeshift igloo around each reactor, this could act as a "refrigerator" if you will to cool the core's, as well as keeping the radiation from entering the atmosphere. And although this would take some time, the workers would be well protected if A) they are wearing well insulated tall boots, and 2) as I mentioned earlier are heavily coated in no less than a SPF 35 sunblock, to protect from the mircrosieverts.
- Gary Elfont, NY, USA, 17/3/2011 16:59

:erm:

[Tazio]

The ones in the West Coast could well face a similar situation to Fukushima, San Onofre for example.
San Onfre is not in peril. I think people get confused about California I never felt a bad quake until I was up in Pasadena, I was only 8 miles from the epicenter and Downtown LA was shaking. The highest structures were pitching 5' in both directions. The only person that died was some poor SOB that was working for the utility company 20' underground, that was the Whittier Narrows quake. There are so many faults in and around San Diego they relieve pressure with events that you would sleep through.
My experience only goes back to 1960. Plus the power plant is in the middle of nowhere.
And in the immortal words of the great Paul Rogers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3973tfsllqw&feature=fvwrel

[DexDexter]

San Onfre is not in peril. I think people get confused about California I never felt a bad quake until I was up in Pasadena, I was only 8 miles from the epicenter and Downtown LA was shaking. The highest structures were pitching 5' in both directions. The only person that died was some poor SOB that was working for the utility company 20' underground, that was the Whittier Narrows quake. There are so many faults in and around San Diego they relieve pressure with events that you would sleep through.
My experience only goes back to 1960. Plus the power plant is in the middle of nowhere.
In the immortal words of the great Paul Rogers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3973tfsllqw&feature=fvwrel

I'm not an expert, I just wanted to point out that there are nuclear reactors in earthquake-possible (or tsunami) areas outside Japan as well. If it happened to the Japanese, it could happen to anybody, us Finns included, a nuclear accident I mean.

[Tazio]

I'm not an expert, I just wanted to point out that there are nuclear reactors in earthquake-possible (or tsunami) areas outside Japan as well. If it happened to the Japanese, it could happen to anybody, us Finns included, a nuclear accident I mean.
I'm glad you pointed that out, because it could happen anywhere. But Japan is a whole different ball game. They are quite famous for their high amplitude quakes.

[Roamy]

take the sh!t over to Iran and they can get some on the job training :)

[Tazio]

Continuing the "everybody's an expert" theme, here's a comment from a Daily Mail article (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1367125/Japan-tsunami-Fukushima-Fifty-suicide-mission-battle-nuclear-meltdown.html) which I sincerly hope isn't intended to be taken seriously: :erm:
I think it's legit.
He only omitted that it has to be sacred snow from the west side of Fujiyama :roll: :ninja:

[Garry Walker]

What a tragedy for Japanese people. The weather there is making it only worse, very sad to see.

One must compliment Japanese people on the fact that despite the situation they are in, they still appear calm, there is no looting. Certain groups of people would have a lot to learn from that.




Continuing the "everybody's an expert" theme, here's a comment from a Daily Mail article (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1367125/Japan-tsunami-Fukushima-Fifty-suicide-mission-battle-nuclear-meltdown.html) which I sincerly hope isn't intended to be taken seriously:



:erm:

That is obviously humour.

[race aficionado]

I got me self a new avatar.

:s mokin:

[ioan]

There is no excuse for what has happenned and it does not take a PhD to see why they should not have done what they did. Just a little common sense and foresight.


Common sense?! Are you serious?! In today's crazy world the most important thing is the price/usability. Why plan for more backup and emergency systems if they are too expensive especially with the chance that such an Earthquake or Tsunami only happen every 50 years? (just in case I feel I'll add that this comment is sarcastic!)
And thinking about how they were almost right makes me sick, a couple more weeks and most of these reactors would have been already shut down for good.

[Mark]

I think part of the problem in Japan is that there's nobody really to blame for the earthquake and the Tsunami, but you can blame someone for the nuclear accident.

[BDunnell]

I think part of the problem in Japan is that there's nobody really to blame for the earthquake and the Tsunami, but you can blame someone for the nuclear accident.

And, nowadays, people seek someone to blame for everything. The fact that humans sometimes make mistakes that have serious consequences is no longer tolerated.

[Tazio]

I might not have all the information, but if the bureaucrats had actually done their jobs this may not have happened, although since they were due to be replaced.
It may just falls in line with a really bad run of luck!

[Tazio]

I think part of the problem in Japan is that there's nobody really to blame for the earthquake and the Tsunami, but you can blame someone for the nuclear accident.q

[markabilly]

Common sense?! Are you serious?! In today's crazy world the most important thing is the price/usability. Why plan for more backup and emergency systems if they are too expensive especially with the chance that such an Earthquake or Tsunami only happen every 50 years? (just in case I feel I'll add that this comment is sarcastic!)
And thinking about how they were almost right makes me sick, a couple more weeks and most of these reactors would have been already shut down for good.

"thinking about how they were almost right makes me sick"

Well duh, that is exactly the same attude that leads to messes like this

but you are right about price and usability being what it is all about. So maybe an earthquake will not come along .....

what is good is that this did not result in a more widespread mess.

It could have been far worse, with the right winds and a quicker and bigger meltdown, spewing a path straight through Tokyo, and giving a new glow to 12 million people.

Perhaps some lessons would be learned here......but i doubt it.

chernobyl seems not to have been enough, so why should this be different

[chuck34]

So maybe an earthquake will not come along .....

Doing a quick google search shows that this was the strongest earthquake in Japan since an estimated 8.6 in 1707. Don't know if that is accurate, but for a sec. let's assume it is. They designed this to withstand an 8.5 quake (or a once in 300+ year event). It actually survived a 9.0, about 5 TIMES the size of what it was designed to withstand. What else do you think they should have done?


what is good is that this did not result in a more widespread mess.

Amen to that.


It could have been far worse, with the right winds and a quicker and bigger meltdown, spewing a path straight through Tokyo, and giving a new glow to 12 million people.

Ok, let's get a few things straight here. Any small amount of radiation that has "leaked" due to this did not come from a meltdown. There is a possiblitly (they don't know at this time according to reports I've seen) that there was a partial meltdown. But let's assume that it was a total meltdown. The core is contained in steel and concrete that has been designed specifically to not allow a complete meltdown to cause any contamination to the area. It simply won't happen. The initial radiation leak was due to the venting of steam that was slightly radioactive. Steam was released on purpose in order to release some presssure that was building up inside the reactor. This steam had some elements in them that were radioactive, but those elements have very short half-lives, and very little effect to humans. The radiation that is present now is coming from the spent fuel rods who's containment baths seems to have been boiled off. Again, from what I've heard (hard to get to the truth through all the BS being reported) the spent rods were not out of water for long periods of time. No meltdown of the spent rods has occured. This is still a danger until the power is restored to the coolant pumps feeding the containment baths. So far the amount of radiation that has been detected is well below the levels to be worried about. The big story this morning was how this incident had been upgraded to the same level as Three Mile Island. And NO ONE died or even had very serious effects from TMI. So we are just now up to the level of a minor accident. No reason for hysterics.


Perhaps some lessons would be learned here......but i doubt it.

No, there are plenty of lessons to be learned, and they will be. Perhaps if people actually started to look at nuclear power rationally, and without the hysterics on their minds, we might be able to have a thoughtful conversation about how to address the real issues facing this plant. And since the real danger from this accident comes from the spent fuel rods, I would hope that rational humans would be able to have a real conversation about recycling the spent fuel to be used again, rather than having them just sitting around in pools at the plant. THAT is the real issue here, storing/recycling the spent fuel, not the debate about using nuke power or not.


chernobyl seems not to have been enough, so why should this be different

Clearly you have no clue about Chernobyl, only what you've been fed by the media. Did you know that there was basically NO containment structure around the core there? Do you know that the reason that it exploded was that they had no way to release pressure from the core, just as the Japaneese did early on? Since the Russians did not have this system, the "run-away" reaction within Chernobyl's reactor boiled all the coolent into high pressure steam that eventually ruptured the core in a high powered explosion. The explosion threw radioactive material all around the site. Even at that the effects to people in the surrounding areas has been overstated in some cases (except for those at the immediate site of the accident).

The Western reactors all had/have systems in place to prevent a Chernobyl style accident from happening, even before that accident. So no real lessons were needed to be learned, except by the Russians, and I am assuming they learned them.

[Daniel]

Chuck, please stop talking sense, I'd much rather people plucked past events which are barely related and used them as proof of what they're saying rather than resorting to petty facts.....

[Retro Formula 1]

"thinking about how they were almost right makes me sick"

Well duh, that is exactly the same attude that leads to messes like this

but you are right about price and usability being what it is all about. So maybe an earthquake will not come along .....

what is good is that this did not result in a more widespread mess.

It could have been far worse, with the right winds and a quicker and bigger meltdown, spewing a path straight through Tokyo, and giving a new glow to 12 million people.

Perhaps some lessons would be learned here......but i doubt it.

chernobyl seems not to have been enough, so why should this be different

Markability

There is no attitude and I suggest you read and digest what Chuck has written. It's one of the most accurate and informed posts on here although we disagree slightly on the danger posed by the remaining fuel rods.

Chenobyl was so far removed from these incidents as to be irrelevant to this conversation. It was the result of a test that was flawed and a Scram of the reactor which done the opposite due to faulty control rods. These increased power, rapidly superheating the water which eventually lead to the explosion.

Where is the comparisson?

[chuck34]

although we disagree slightly on the danger posed by the remaining fuel rods.

Don't get me wrong, there is a great possible danger posed by the fuel rods. I just think that they must have them, at least somewhat, under control. If not, there would be much more radioactivity spewing from there. But I do freely admit that the danger posed by them is great, if not taken care of properly, which still may be the case. As I said, the reporting comming out of there is spotty at best. So it's hard to tell what the exact situation really is.

[Tazio]

Doing a quick google search shows that this was the strongest earthquake in Japan since an estimated 8.6 in 1707. Don't know if that is accurate, but for a sec. let's assume it is. They designed this to withstand an 8.5 quake (or a once in 300+ year event). It actually survived a 9.0, about 5 TIMES the size of what it was designed to withstand. What else do you think they should have done?



Amen to that.



Ok, let's get a few things straight here. Any small amount of radiation that has "leaked" due to this did not come from a meltdown. There is a possiblitly (they don't know at this time according to reports I've seen) that there was a partial meltdown. But let's assume that it was a total meltdown. The core is contained in steel and concrete that has been designed specifically to not allow a complete meltdown to cause any contamination to the area. It simply won't happen. The initial radiation leak was due to the venting of steam that was slightly radioactive. Steam was released on purpose in order to release some presssure that was building up inside the reactor. This steam had some elements in them that were radioactive, but those elements have very short half-lives, and very little effect to humans. The radiation that is present now is coming from the spent fuel rods who's containment baths seems to have been boiled off. Again, from what I've heard (hard to get to the truth through all the BS being reported) the spent rods were not out of water for long periods of time. No meltdown of the spent rods has occured. This is still a danger until the power is restored to the coolant pumps feeding the containment baths. So far the amount of radiation that has been detected is well below the levels to be worried about. The big story this morning was how this incident had been upgraded to the same level as Three Mile Island. And NO ONE died or even had very serious effects from TMI. So we are just now up to the level of a minor accident. No reason for hysterics.



No, there are plenty of lessons to be learned, and they will be. Perhaps if people actually started to look at nuclear power rationally, and without the hysterics on their minds, we might be able to have a thoughtful conversation about how to address the real issues facing this plant. And since the real danger from this accident comes from the spent fuel rods, I would hope that rational humans would be able to have a real conversation about recycling the spent fuel to be used again, rather than having them just sitting around in pools at the plant. THAT is the real issue here, storing/recycling the spent fuel, not the debate about using nuke power or not.



Clearly you have no clue about Chernobyl, only what you've been fed by the media. Did you know that there was basically NO containment structure around the core there? Do you know that the reason that it exploded was that they had no way to release pressure from the core, just as the Japaneese did early on? Since the Russians did not have this system, the "run-away" reaction within Chernobyl's reactor boiled all the coolent into high pressure steam that eventually ruptured the core in a high powered explosion. The explosion threw radioactive material all around the site. Even at that the effects to people in the surrounding areas has been overstated in some cases (except for those at the immediate site of the accident).

The Western reactors all had/have systems in place to prevent a Chernobyl style accident from happening, even before that accident. So no real lessons were needed to be learned, except by the Russians, and I am assuming they learned them.
Hear, Hear!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3973tfsllqw&feature=fvwrel

[BDunnell]

Chuck, you speak a lot of sense.

[Tazio]

The weather is beautiful in San Diego expect mid 70's tomorrow I think I'll hit the beach early tomorrow and work on my tan. :cool:

[Mark in Oshawa]

Chuck, you speak a lot of sense.

Ben, I will agree whole heartedly.

There has been so much hysteria and bad reporting on all of this, it is nauseating.

I live between 10 CANDU reactors (6 reactors in one plant15 miles to one side of me, and 4 more reactor's 5 miles to the other) so I have taken the time to learn about how they work, and what the dangers are and all the rest of it.

I also have faith in someone who regulates these things and the people who built them. I still think they need more oversight since the operator of the plant, Ontario Power Generation is a Crown Corporation, and the inspectors are from government as well (conflict of interest in theory) but that is part of trusting the system at some level. As much as I want less government in my life, on this I don't want corners cut.

That all said, I see what is happening in Japan, and I see a few issues. One, the people at Tokyo Electric apprently had issues with regulations and some of the safety items and the government let them skate a little. However, this being Japan, I suspect it wasn't anything major, and I am sure after this, no nuclear plant in Japan will operate without the most stringent protocols. Anal compared to what we see over here. The Japanese are very through as a society and they don't accept screw ups. A lot of people are losing face over this mess at Fukashima, and yet, as Chuck pointed out, the reactor rode out the quake, despite supposively not being designed to handle a 9.0. It did, and it was only the Tsunami that killed them. Oh well, that wont happen again.

It is truly amazing to me the efforts many people have gone to either make this a bigger catastrophe than it is ( like 3 Mile Island) and they are doing it ignoring the suffering and loss of the Japanese as a whole.

The ignorance of nuclear power is breathtaking, and it is galling to see......because it isn't going away, and if you care about the planet as someone who believes in Green House Gas warming ( I don't, but I will play along with reducing anything we put in the air if it can be done without cutting society off at the knees), then Nuclear is going to be the way we power our society. Get used to it.....

[Dave B]

If Dungeness ever went up I'd be in serious trouble but I have no problem living where I do. The risks are so ridiculously tiny as to be virtually nil.

[Daniel]

If Dungeness ever went up I'd be in serious trouble but I have no problem living where I do. The risks are so ridiculously tiny as to be virtually nil.

Ditto.

I'll post this again and hope someone actually looks at it this time :p
http://nextbigfuture.com/2008/03/deaths-per-twh-for-all-energy-sources.html

[markabilly]

Amen to all of you. Trust in your government, except many of these plants are run by for-profit corporations.

Maybe another one will not go pop, ever, but if they do, just remember do not drink the milk!!!!!!

Funny thng is the reports showing food contamidation in japan already.......

[Daniel]

Amen to all of you. Trust in your government, except many of these plants are run by for-profit corporations.

Maybe another one will not go pop, ever, but if they do, just remember do not drink the milk!!!!!!

Funny thng is the reports showing food contimidation in japan already.......

Link?

[markabilly]

just spinach and milk

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/42165568#42165568

big deal

[Daniel]

just spinach and milk

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/42165568#42165568

big deal
Fair enough. As has been pointed out the radioactive iodine has a very short halflife of only 8 days.

[Tazio]

Now Russia is complaining because the French are putting too much of a beat-down on on MG.
Even though Sarkosy is doing exactly what he said he would do.
And stated it specifically.

[Retro Formula 1]

At last, the start of some good news:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12802335

Hopefully the pumps will be going soon and the threat will be lessened.

[chuck34]

just spinach and milk

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/42165568#42165568

big deal

Mark, you need to calm down and stop buying into all the hype.

http://www.aolnews.com/2011/03/19/japan-cites-unsafe-radiation-in-spinach-milk-near-plant/

the amounts detected were so small that people would have to consume unimaginable amounts to endanger their health.

"Can you imagine eating one kilogram of spinach every day for one year?" said State Secretary of Health Minister Yoko Komiyama. One kilogram is a little over two pounds.

Edano said someone drinking the tainted milk for one year would consume as much radiation as in a CT scan; for the spinach, it would be one-fifth of a CT scan. A CT scan is a compressed series of X-rays used for medical tests.


Drinking one liter of water with the iodine at Thursday's levels is the equivalent of receiving one-eighty-eighth of the radiation from a chest X-ray, said Kazuma Yokota, a spokesman for the prefecture's disaster response headquarters.

Here's a reference to lots of natural radiation levels present in everyday thing.

http://www.physics.isu.edu/radinf/natural.htm

Oh my! Stay away from bananas ... and BEER!!!! NOOOOOO!!!!!!! NOT BEER!!!!!!!! Both have radioactive isotopes of potassium. Dear God, how can anyone survive?!

Even granite, concrete, and wall board have radioactive materials in them. We better all leave our houses. Oops that's no good, the cosmic rays are gonna get 'cha. Oh and here's another little hint ... don't fly anywhere.

[Rollo]

just spinach and milk

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/42165568#42165568

big deal

Yeah milk... big deal.

Strontium 90 has an annyoing habit of getting into people's bones and replacing calcium. Not that that's important or anything, but bone marrow is where red blood cells, white blood cells and platelets are formed. Strontium 90 as a fissile product has a half-life of 28.8 years.

You might like to read this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/14/health/14cancer.html?_r=1

Bone cancer and leukemia due to calcium replacement isn't that big of an issue at all. Big deal.

[markabilly]

Yeah milk... big deal.

Strontium 90 has an annyoing habit of getting into people's bones and replacing calcium. Not that that's important or anything, but bone marrow is where red blood cells, white blood cells and platelets are formed. Strontium 90 as a fissile product has a half-life of 28.8 years.

You might like to read this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/14/health/14cancer.html?_r=1

Bone cancer and leukemia due to calcium replacement isn't that big of an issue at all. Big deal.

I don't drink milk. Nor Beer. Only kool aid.
Let the children drink milk.....
Don't eat spinach either
children should eat their spinach, but they do not. Shame on them!!!

Japan has too many people in too little space and anyway nuke power is too important to let it be affected by the death of a bunch of people in Japan. Big deal.

Besides, this is the same kind of crap that ruined thermonuke development and testing of bombs in the 1960's. Don't want a repeat of that, do we??

[Malbec]

Yeah milk... big deal.

Strontium 90 has an annyoing habit of getting into people's bones and replacing calcium. Not that that's important or anything, but bone marrow is where red blood cells, white blood cells and platelets are formed. Strontium 90 as a fissile product has a half-life of 28.8 years.

You might like to read this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/14/health/14cancer.html?_r=1

Bone cancer and leukemia due to calcium replacement isn't that big of an issue at all. Big deal.

The degree of increased radiation found in the milk was negligible.

In fact the hysteria around the radiation risk to the population is shocking. For people outside the plant itself, the maximum degree of radiation they've received struggles to equal that of a chest x-ray and only a few people received that much. For those foreigners fleeing Tokyo its amuses me that the extra radiation they'll get from taking a long distance flight will exceed what they'll get as a result of the problems in Fukushima by quite some margin.

Even the workers fighting to sort out the powerplant are unlikely to have statistically significant increased risk of cancer, especially as the numbers exposed are low (I think there are about 200 workers there) and the radiation they are receiving is still also low.

[chuck34]

The degree of increased radiation found in the milk was negligible.

In fact the hysteria around the radiation risk to the population is shocking. For people outside the plant itself, the maximum degree of radiation they've received struggles to equal that of a chest x-ray and only a few people received that much. For those foreigners fleeing Tokyo its amuses me that the extra radiation they'll get from taking a long distance flight will exceed what they'll get as a result of the problems in Fukushima by quite some margin.

Even the workers fighting to sort out the powerplant are unlikely to have statistically significant increased risk of cancer, especially as the numbers exposed are low (I think there are about 200 workers there) and the radiation they are receiving is still also low.

Sssshhhhhhh, don't tell anyone that. We live in a radiation free world, don't you know that? The only thing that could possibly expose us to any radiation are those nasty nuke plants. X-rays, CT scans, those are all "good radiation" don't 'cha know.

[DexDexter]

The degree of increased radiation found in the milk was negligible.

In fact the hysteria around the radiation risk to the population is shocking. For people outside the plant itself, the maximum degree of radiation they've received struggles to equal that of a chest x-ray and only a few people received that much. For those foreigners fleeing Tokyo its amuses me that the extra radiation they'll get from taking a long distance flight will exceed what they'll get as a result of the problems in Fukushima by quite some margin.

Even the workers fighting to sort out the powerplant are unlikely to have statistically significant increased risk of cancer, especially as the numbers exposed are low (I think there are about 200 workers there) and the radiation they are receiving is still also low.

You're right but the problem is people don't trust the authorities and to be frank, why should they? Nobody really knows how much radiation has leaked. It's also easy to say people are hysteric when you're not there. An earthquake topped with a nuclear scare is just too much for many people it seems. And still, I bet you wouldn't like to drink milk from the Fukushima area no matter how small amounts of radiation it contained according to the authorities.

[Malbec]

You're right but the problem is people don't trust the authorities and to be frank, why should they? Nobody really knows how much radiation has leaked. It's also easy to say people are hysteric when you're not there. An earthquake topped with a nuclear scare is just too much for many people it seems. And still, I bet you wouldn't like to drink milk from the Fukushima area no matter how small amounts of radiation it contained according to the authorities.

The authorities do not have a monopoly on radiation detection devices. Anyone can buy them though they can be quite pricey. Noone has found radiation to a level that is above what the Japanese government is claiming. To suggest that noone knows about the real level of radiation is therefore false.

The Japanese people are not being hysterical, in fact I admire the stoicism and the degree to which people are both trying to carry on their normal lives as far as they can whilst contributing in their own little ways by consuming as little energy as possible. It is the media and people in other countries that are.

And yes, I'll be happy to drink that milk. I work with radiation and I know the exact risks (or lack of it).

[Tazio]

You're right but the problem is people don't trust the authorities and to be frank, why should they? Nobody really knows how much radiation has leaked. It's also easy to say people are hysteric when you're not there. An earthquake topped with a nuclear scare is just too much for many people it seems. And still, I bet you wouldn't like to drink milk from the Fukushima area no matter how small amounts of radiation it contained according to the authorities.I agree. And the fact that the utility company either covered it up or went comepletly brain dead, and as tramatic all these events of this perfect storm are to the Japanese, The utility company may need to answer some serious questions.

[chuck34]

I agree. And the fact that the utility company either covered it up or went comepletly brain dead, and as tramatic all these events of this perfect storm are to the Japanese, The utility company may need to answer some serious questions.

What exactly has the utility company "covered up"?

[markabilly]

What exactly has the utility company "covered up"?

There are those that are saying the company was less than forthcoming about the problems. and while a stereotype, my cousin who lives there (and has for the last 15 years) thinks that saving face is still a major concern in japan as well as appearing calm in the face of danger.

He thinks toyota issued the famous recall, after the company decided that the better face saving was to issue the recall even if it meant it would be a form of suicide--while marketing is a form of 'saving face" , it was NOT marketing that was motivating them. he should know given where he is in the company.

[DexDexter]

The authorities do not have a monopoly on radiation detection devices. Anyone can buy them though they can be quite pricey. Noone has found radiation to a level that is above what the Japanese government is claiming. To suggest that noone knows about the real level of radiation is therefore false.

The Japanese people are not being hysterical, in fact I admire the stoicism and the degree to which people are both trying to carry on their normal lives as far as they can whilst contributing in their own little ways by consuming as little energy as possible. It is the media and people in other countries that are.


And yes, I'll be happy to drink that milk. I work with radiation and I know the exact risks (or lack of it).

You're not seriously suggesting the Japanese authorities know exactly how much radiation those puffs of smoke coming from the plants contain? Food contaminated with radiation keeps popping out in different parts of Japan, even in the south were there weren't supposed to be any radiation. You call foreigners who left Japan hysterical, I call them very wise. A worst case scenario which is still possible could have resulted in quite serious radiation leak, and that's not according to me but Finnish nuclear safety authorities. Why take the chance?

[Mark]

The current situation is not of big concern. However I don't blame those who left as it did have to potential to become far worse.

[Tazio]

What exactly has the utility company "covered up"?
I can't tell you all the things they did. Only that they are, and have been comming under scrutiny
The Americans have sounded that alarm not me.

[BDunnell]

You're right but the problem is people don't trust the authorities and to be frank, why should they? Nobody really knows how much radiation has leaked. It's also easy to say people are hysteric when you're not there. An earthquake topped with a nuclear scare is just too much for many people it seems. And still, I bet you wouldn't like to drink milk from the Fukushima area no matter how small amounts of radiation it contained according to the authorities.

There should be a realisation that the authorities are uncertain, which is only natural in such a chaotic situation, combined with an acceptance of the actual level of risk. This seems to be how the Japanese people are actually reacting.

[Tazio]

There are those that are saying the company was less than forthcoming about the problems. and while a stereotype, my cousin who lives there (and has for the last 15 years) thinks that saving face is still a major concern in japan as well as appearing calm in the face of danger.

He thinks toyota issued the famous recall, after the company decided that the better face saving was to issue the recall even if it meant it would be a form of suicide--while marketing is a form of 'saving face" , it was NOT marketing that was motivating them. he should know given where he is in the company.
I don't have any problems with my Toyota. but I'm open to having a non-partisan, and open investigation. This in no way affects my feeling about the viability of the industry. If or not anything is covered up in this particular incident I say to err on the side of caution! This is not a personal crusade is it?

[Malbec]

You're not seriously suggesting the Japanese authorities know exactly how much radiation those puffs of smoke coming from the plants contain? Food contaminated with radiation keeps popping out in different parts of Japan, even in the south were there weren't supposed to be any radiation. You call foreigners who left Japan hysterical, I call them very wise. A worst case scenario which is still possible could have resulted in quite serious radiation leak, and that's not according to me but Finnish nuclear safety authorities. Why take the chance?

I'm sorry but your post reflects exactly the kind of hysteria I'm talking about.

Your reference to food from elsewhere in Japan which has increased radiation levels is a case in point. The food in question had slightly increased radiation levels which were miles below the legal limit. Taiwan found the same in some food imported from none radiated parts of Japan, again way below the legal limit. This is normal, radiation levels in anything are not going to be completely uniform.

Had it not been for the Fukushima problems such incidents would not have been anything beyond a note in some health and safety folder somewhere. Yet because of the media storm, such things get reported as some kind of evidence that the radiation leak is widespread. I suggest you consider that despite Taiwan's findings they have not introduced any kind of ban on importing Japanese foodstuffs. Isn't that telling?

BTW you don't measure the radiation from puffs of smoke. You take constant readings in particular areas to measure the level of radiation exposure. What has been consistently clear is that outside the confines of the nuclear reactor the level of radiation whilst breaching what is legally acceptable on occasion is nowhere near the level required to cause any kind of harm to health. In fact I can categorically say that road traffic accidents and the like during the evacuation would be a greater risk to the populations health.

Perhaps you should look up the radiation dosage in microsieverts in affected areas and correlate them with other radiation sources and the attendant health risk. You might be surprised.

[chuck34]

I can't tell you all the things they did. Only that they are, and have been comming under scrutiny
The Americans have sounded that alarm not me.

I think you need to be very precise here. If you are going to go around accusing people of "covering things up", especially in a situation like this, you really should have something of substance.

"The Americans have sounded that alarm"? What alarm? Which Americans?

[Malbec]

I can't tell you all the things they did. Only that they are, and have been comming under scrutiny
The Americans have sounded that alarm not me.

To be fair there have been incidents in the past where the Japanese nuclear industry has been less than transparent in the early stages of radiation incidents. That said, their actual safety record has been on the good side compared to other countries.

There certainly should be an inquiry into both the design of the reactor facilities and TEPCO's handling of the crisis after things are sorted out and appropriate action taken. In particular there should be particular attention I think as to why the facilities were designed only to cope with a 5 metre tsunami wave even though there was evidence that taller waves had been noted although extremely rarely. That was the core problem that caused this incident after all.

[DexDexter]

I'm sorry but your post reflects exactly the kind of hysteria I'm talking about.

Your reference to food from elsewhere in Japan which has increased radiation levels is a case in point. The food in question had slightly increased radiation levels which were miles below the legal limit. Taiwan found the same in some food imported from none radiated parts of Japan, again way below the legal limit. This is normal, radiation levels in anything are not going to be completely uniform.

Had it not been for the Fukushima problems such incidents would not have been anything beyond a note in some health and safety folder somewhere. Yet because of the media storm, such things get reported as some kind of evidence that the radiation leak is widespread. I suggest you consider that despite Taiwan's findings they have not introduced any kind of ban on importing Japanese foodstuffs. Isn't that telling?

BTW you don't measure the radiation from puffs of smoke. You take constant readings in particular areas to measure the level of radiation exposure. What has been consistently clear is that outside the confines of the nuclear reactor the level of radiation whilst breaching what is legally acceptable on occasion is nowhere near the level required to cause any kind of harm to health. In fact I can categorically say that road traffic accidents and the like during the evacuation would be a greater risk to the populations health.

Perhaps you should look up the radiation dosage in microsieverts in affected areas and correlate them with other radiation sources and the attendant health risk. You might be surprised.

Please don't not take me for a fool, I know how radiation is measured, my point was that, according to what I've heard, the authorities were, at least at one point, not sure how much radiation leaked in the explosions, for example, so there was an uncertainty factor there as well. You constantly write about the radiation being within legal limits and that's great news but you, seemingly as an expert, should know that things change fast and no government is able to react as quickly as the wind blows so to speak. There could be a serious turn of events and suddenly the radiation levels could go up, that's what I've been told.

IMO people are afraid because they know how dangerous radiation is, even if the probability of harmful exposure is minimal.

[Malbec]

IMO people are afraid because they know how dangerous radiation is, even if the probability of harmful exposure is minimal.

I think thats an oversimplification.

People are afraid because they fear radiation but are not aware of the real dangers of radiation. In this current case at Fukushima people overestimate the effects of the radiation thats been released. In everyday life they underestimate or are ignorant of the radiation they are exposed to.

As for the future, yes it is possible (though less and less likely as the fuel rods produce less energy with time) that there will be a release of high levels of radiation in which case the scenario will change. But I am talking about existing risks and how they are portrayed and perceived by the public.

[Daniel]

I think thats an oversimplification.

People are afraid because they fear radiation but are not aware of the real dangers of radiation. In this current case at Fukushima people overestimate the effects of the radiation thats been released. In everyday life they underestimate or are ignorant of the radiation they are exposed to.

As for the future, yes it is possible (though less and less likely as the fuel rods produce less energy with time) that there will be a release of high levels of radiation in which case the scenario will change. But I am talking about existing risks and how they are portrayed and perceived by the public.

I wonder if DexDexter is too scared to look into the microwave :p

[DexDexter]

I wonder if DexDexter is too scared to look into the microwave :p

I don't know Daniel, where you exposed to radiation as a kid like me and all my friends who got their share of the Chernobyl fallout. Berries and reindeer meat still have traces of it over here. This is not a matter to be joked about.

[Daniel]

I don't know Daniel, where you exposed to radiation as a kid like me and all my friends who got their share of the Chernobyl fallout. Berries and reindeer meat still have traces of it over here. This is not a matter to be joked about.

Luckily I wasn't. But we're dealing with a disaster which is nowhere near as bad as chernobyl.

[Tazio]

I think you need to be very precise here. If you are going to go around accusing people of "covering things up", especially in a situation like this, you really should have something of substance.

"The Americans have sounded that alarm"? What alarm? Which Americans?
I have to be as precise as I feel like being, please don't try to define what I can bring to the forum. There are a lot of questions. I think I posted on the 2nd page of this thread that we may never find out why this thing unfolds the way it has. Let's keep it respectful. I am not on a crusade nor do I have any expectations.
Tepco was particularly short on facts and long on deflection. A public hungry for information and guidance was often told: "We are still investigating the matter." At a briefing Tuesday, Tepco sought to mollify reporters with another apology.

"Are you apologizing because things have crossed a critical line?" one reporter askedhttp://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704164204576203063945789364.html
Chuck I'm not in this for a fight
I have my opinions and as you know I am pro Nuc.
Chillax Bro.

[Bob Riebe]

It is amazing, the thread is about an earthquake and tsunami, and now it has pretty much been reduced to a godzilla thread.

In case anyone who is afraid of glowing wants to know they are still finding mostly dead but a few live victims.

[chuck34]

I have to be as precise as I feel like being, please don't try to define what I can bring to the forum. There are a lot of questions. I think I posted on the 2nd page of this thread that we may never find out why this thing unfolds the way it has. Let's keep it respectful. I am not on a crusade nor do I have any expectations.http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704164204576203063945789364.html
Chuck I'm not in this for a fight
I have my opinions and as you know I am pro Nuc.
Chillax Bro.

I'm not trying to dictate to you what you can and can not do. I just think baseless acusations of "they're covering something up" should not go unchallenged. I am more than willing to discuss these things, but baseless claims can not be discussed.

I am chillaxing ... at home now, popped open a brew. :beer: all is right with the world. :D

[chuck34]

It is amazing, the thread is about an earthquake and tsunami, and now it has pretty much been reduced to a godzilla thread.

In case anyone who is afraid of glowing wants to know they are still finding mostly dead but a few live victims.

pretty much reflects the coverage in the media.

[Daniel]

It is amazing, the thread is about an earthquake and tsunami, and now it has pretty much been reduced to a godzilla thread.

In case anyone who is afraid of glowing wants to know they are still finding mostly dead but a few live victims.

This only goes to show how emotive anything involving the words nuclear, radiation and radioactive is.

Compared to all those who get killed by coal mining or in the oil/gas industry nuclear power is many many times safer. Then there are those who get killed by respiratory problems or in wars to ensure oil security.

[Retro Formula 1]

I don't know Daniel, where you exposed to radiation as a kid like me and all my friends who got their share of the Chernobyl fallout. Berries and reindeer meat still have traces of it over here. This is not a matter to be joked about.

We are all exposed to radiation. The radiation that posed any risk after a couple of weeks will be shared around the planet. We all have radiation in us from tests and bombs as well. I think about 150 Tonnes has been exploded until the 80's when France stopped testing.

It's not funny but it's not a reason to get hysterical.

Before you start panicing about something that is a naturally occuring substance, do a bit of investigation into carsonagenic and respiratory health issues caused by
hydrocarbons. You might be grateful for a bit of Radiation one day if you develop illness through them.

[Mark]

I've read a few times that metal from ships sunk before and during WWII is quite precious for various technologies that I forget, because unlike all metals manufactured after 1945 they contain no radioactive isotopes.

They, of course, make no difference to human health but can make a difference when you're building very sensitive detector equipment such as those used in satellites.

[Mark]

I've read a few times that metal from ships sunk before and during WWII is quite precious for various technologies that I forget, because unlike all metals manufactured after 1945 they contain no radioactive isotopes.

They, of course, make no difference to human health but can make a difference when you're building very sensitive detector equipment such as those used in satellites.

[Retro Formula 1]

I've read a few times that metal from ships sunk before and during WWII is quite precious for various technologies that I forget, because unlike all metals manufactured after 1945 they contain no radioactive isotopes.

They, of course, make no difference to human health but can make a difference when you're building very sensitive detector equipment such as those used in satellites.

Didn't know that.

I know that Pu244 has been found in Meteorites though :)

[race aficionado]

We are all exposed to radiation. . . . . .

Before you start panicing about something that is a naturally occuring substance, do a bit of investigation into carsonagenic and respiratory health issues caused by
hydrocarbons. You might be grateful for a bit of Radiation one day if you develop illness through them.


So it's choose your own poison?

See anything wrong with this picture?

Anything poisonous, harmful and polluting should be addressed, no matter what poison you are grateful for getting.

[Mark]

So it's choose your own poison?

See anything wrong with this picture?

Anything poisonous, harmful and polluting should be addressed, no matter what poison you are grateful for getting.

But it's a question of degree? Even if the media wants to you can't put labels on things as "safe" or "not safe" they simply don't exist, there's a level of risk associated with everything. Including nuclear.

In general peoples perception of risk is poor, e.g. In Tokyo just now you are far more likely to be killed by falling down your own stairs than you are by the effects of radiation. Should we ban stairs?

[chuck34]

So it's choose your own poison?

See anything wrong with this picture?

Anything poisonous, harmful and polluting should be addressed, no matter what poison you are grateful for getting.

Dear God man, if this is your view point your only alternative is to go into a dark room (might get some harmeful rays from the lights, and besides they will create pollution when they are disposed of), don't move (might trip and break something, then you'd have to get an x-ray), and wait to live out the rest of your days (oh God I hope they dispose of your body "properly", lots of nasty stuff in your body already). Oh wait, that room can't be made of concrete or dry-wall, too much radiation. Can't eat pretty much anything, too much radiation, or other health issues. I don't know what you can do. You appear to be f'ed no matter what you do. Sorry to break it to you.

[Retro Formula 1]

99% of the annual radiation you absorb is Natural and you would die without it. 1% is man made and the levels are gradually falling.

[race aficionado]

Dear God man, if this is your view point your only alternative is to go into a dark room (might get some harmeful rays from the lights, and besides they will create pollution when they are disposed of), don't move (might trip and break something, then you'd have to get an x-ray), and wait to live out the rest of your days (oh God I hope they dispose of your body "properly", lots of nasty stuff in your body already). Oh wait, that room can't be made of concrete or dry-wall, too much radiation. Can't eat pretty much anything, too much radiation, or other health issues. I don't know what you can do. You appear to be f'ed no matter what you do. Sorry to break it to you.

I'll let this discussion be . . . .
we are obviously in total opposite views about this and according to you I am a paranoid hypochondriac. So be it.
I won't label you, but do wish you a healthy life-span.
:s mokin:

[race aficionado]

But it's a question of degree? Even if the media wants to you can't put labels on things as "safe" or "not safe" they simply don't exist, there's a level of risk associated with everything. Including nuclear.

In general peoples perception of risk is poor, e.g. In Tokyo just now you are far more likely to be killed by falling down your own stairs than you are by the effects of radiation. Should we ban stairs?

No Mark, no banning of stairs, thank you. :p

The fact is that paranoid as I may sound to most of you, I am one of those that has ideas that for many of you may sound too esoteric - I am one of them hippies of this board -
So here it goes and call me what you wish . . . .I believe that matter is more than what meets the eye. We are aware of the liquid, solid and gaseous aspect of our physical body but according to ageless wisdom teachings, there are four more levels of physical called the etheric body.
The radioactive pollution enters our bodies through the etheric planes and cascades into the solid physical bringing with it many of the diseases that are plaguing humanity right now, including Alzheimer's for example.
So yes, I am one of those that believes in the healthy use of staircases with it's inherent dangers of tripping and falling as I am also aware that our scientists don't know enough about the danger of radioactive pollution, and not necessarily the one spewing from Japan right now, but the one that also spews out of our "healthy" radioactive plants.

I'll take cover now . . . . I'm sure these beliefs of mine will be cause for interesting counter point salvos.
:s mokin:

[chuck34]

I'll let this discussion be . . . .
we are obviously in total opposite views about this and according to you I am a paranoid hypochondriac. So be it.
I won't label you, but do wish you a healthy life-span.
:s mokin:

Ok man, have a long and healthy life too. Hope my last post wasn't too sarcastic for you, but I'm a realist. As such there are risks to life. Know them, and their potentials for harm and then move on. It seems like you are overly ... yes paranoid ... about some things. Sarcasim is how I try to point that out sometimes. Maybe not the most effective tool for such a device, but whatever.

Have a good one man. Peace

[race aficionado]

. . . but I'm a realist.



As am I . . . .



Have a good one man. Peace

likewise.
:s mokin:

[Malbec]

In general peoples perception of risk is poor, e.g. In Tokyo just now you are far more likely to be killed by falling down your own stairs than you are by the effects of radiation. Should we ban stairs?

Especially so now because of the blackouts... In fact I bet more people in Japan have died due to the nuclear power stations being off line than will through the radiation from Fukushima.

The problem is that too many people approach the nuclear (or any other polarising topic) issue with a fixed stance and will not allow their opinion to be swayed by objective analysis and evidence. In fact its more likely that their trust in science will be swayed by whether scientific evidence agrees with their opinion rather than the opposite!

[Malbec]

The radioactive pollution enters our bodies through the etheric planes and cascades into the solid physical bringing with it many of the diseases that are plaguing humanity right now, including Alzheimer's for example.

Evidence base please

[BDunnell]

Especially so now because of the blackouts... In fact I bet more people in Japan have died due to the nuclear power stations being off line than will through the radiation from Fukushima.

The problem is that too many people approach the nuclear (or any other polarising topic) issue with a fixed stance and will not allow their opinion to be swayed by objective analysis and evidence. In fact its more likely that their trust in science will be swayed by whether scientific evidence agrees with their opinion rather than the opposite!

Or what they read in their newspaper of choice.

[race aficionado]

Evidence base please

What evidence do you have that it doesn't.

And as I said, it is esoteric information, take it as you wish and if you decide to trash it, it is your choice.

Fine with me.
:s mokin:

[Dave B]

Personally I'll leave it until you can reliably and repeatedly demonstrate it, thanks :s

[Daniel]

We are all exposed to radiation. The radiation that posed any risk after a couple of weeks will be shared around the planet. We all have radiation in us from tests and bombs as well. I think about 150 Tonnes has been exploded until the 80's when France stopped testing.

It's not funny but it's not a reason to get hysterical.

Before you start panicing about something that is a naturally occuring substance, do a bit of investigation into carsonagenic and respiratory health issues caused by
hydrocarbons. You might be grateful for a bit of Radiation one day if you develop illness through them.

Not to mention the health effects AND radiation which come from coal powerplants for instance.

[Daniel]

99% of the annual radiation you absorb is Natural and you would die without it. 1% is man made and the levels are gradually falling.

Yeah but it's not a cuddly kind of natural like say organic food or wholesome christian love so it's not good for us!