Libya no fly zone

[Roamy]

Ok ring in here TIREs
should we do it
should you do it
leave in alone
let nato do it
let the un do it

Kill them all and take the oil

What say you. I say NATO should do it - but then if they don't have the equipment they they should PAY us to do it.

I have four posts or maybe five on this forum. Now I have been posting on different sites for years. Probably have in excess of thirty thousand or more. Not many in comparison to the above individual.

Is there a blood -lust in America that I miss every time I visit.

This person if one should take such liberties and is advocating the death of whom?!! All libyans, or is it muslims or the followers of the Islamic faith?

Than he says steal their oil.

I wonder what this Bob Riebe (found his name) did to have himself banned. For the period I am in the Southern and Northern States I will pay attention to this forum.

Are there people with intelligence out there(:

[Bob Riebe]

Let Italy worry aboutit they are the ones with the closest ties to Libya.

[Tazio]

Thanks for asking Iona I have to say there is not any prevailing bloodlust in the consensus of sane Americans. In fact due to the current consequences in Iraq and Afghanistan I think the current administration is reacting in a very sane manor on the issue of North African unrest. We have vessels in place "already” to help in a catastrophic humanitarian catastrophe. Unlike the former administration we are poised to help as are our allies France, Italy Germany, and The UK. There are difficult decisions to be made, but unlike the former administration, Obama is trying to let the chips fall where they will. It's really not our fight as the countries on the Mediterranean are affected much more profoundly. I trust after 50 years under colonial rule of Italy and a period of quasi self determination that Tripoli which is the heart of Libya may actually attain a degree of Identity commensurate with their will, and worth in their region. All of this is overdue, and reflected by the massive illegal immigration to Southern Europe. It’s time to stop backing puppet governments in the region for remuneration in the form of crude oil prices.

[A.F.F.]

I don't care who does what, just do it fast!!! Gas price is way too high !!!

[Tazio]

I don't care who does what, just do it fast!!! Gas price is way too high !!!
I'm sorry AFF But I think we all can survive until the inevitable comes to pass. My work vehicle is a 2006 Toyota Tundra. 4.7 liter V8 and I need every ounce of power. It's time for serious contemplation as to what is in the best interest in the country and the region.

[A.F.F.]

How come I always fail with sarcasm ?

[Retro Formula 1]

Fins don't have a sense of humor. It's a well documented fact.

Have another Vodka :D

[Retro Formula 1]

As for the no fly zone.



WHY!!!



It's none of our business!!


If we do it we're damned. If we don't we're damned and if we impose it, we have to get involved in every conflict.

Gaddafi hasn't got much support and half the pilots have deserted anyway or are missing on purpose. Let them sort it out themselves.

[Mark]

Quite possbily, it's gone from a popular uprising to a civil war, a pretty disorganised one but a civil war all the same. Not something we should become involved in.

[Tazio]

I don't care who does what, just do it fast!!! Gas price is way too high !!!

Emoticoms are helpfull. ;) Sorry I responded so seriously, :)

[A.F.F.]

Emoticoms are helpfull. ;) Sorry I responded so seriously, :)

No problemo....

...btw, did you know there was living 6 Mattilas in San Diego region back in -92 ?? I wonder how many there are now? :)

[Tazio]

As for the no fly zone.



WHY!!!


It's none of our business!!


If we do it we're damned. If we don't we're damned and if we impose it, we have to get involved in every conflict.

Gaddafi hasn't got much support and half the pilots have deserted anyway or are missing on purpose. Let them sort it out themselves.This is the problem with the information age. 3o years ago we wouldn’t know what happened until it was over. I really think we need to let this things play out.
BTW how do you get some of those hallucinogenic that Al-Qaeda is passing out?

[Tazio]

No problemo....

...btw, did you know there was living 6 Mattilas in San Diego region back in -92 ?? I wonder how many there are now? :)

I'm not sure what you mean? I do know that a group of the 911 Al Qaeda operatives were hanging out at the club (cheetah’s ) on Claremont Mesa Blvd. where my a girlfriend danced /stripped

[Rollo]

What say you. I say NATO should do it - but then if they don't have the equipment they they should PAY us to do it.

What's this "they" and "us" business? You do realise that the United States is in NATO don't you?

And why is it NATO's business anyway? No NATO countries have been attacked.

[Roamy]

Rollo - you are smart enough to understand my post

[Retro Formula 1]

BTW how do you get some of those hallucinogenic that Al-Qaeda is passing out?

Sorry fella. You lost me on this one :confused:

[Tazio]

Sorry fella. You lost me on this one :confused:
I was being facetious. I had just got done watching Gaddafi's son say that all this revolt business was a result of Al Qaeda drugging his subjects into a mass hysteria :p :

[Jag_Warrior]

If the UN feels the need to get involved, then that's one thing. But a military mission that depends on the U.S. as the point man is not acceptable (IMO). I do wish the anti-Qaddafi (BTW, is there a name on earth that has MORE spelling variations???!!!) forces the very best of luck in overthrowing this kook. But it is not our (the U.S.'s) fight. Hopefully we are FINALLY getting to the point that we (and others) will stop thinking of the U.S. as the world's policeman.

[Roamy]

drop guns from the sky and let the best shooter win!!

[nigelred5]

How come I always fail with sarcasm ?

you forgot tthe wink.... ;)

[nigelred5]

drop guns from the sky and let the best shooter win!!

Bring it. Shot about 500 rounds through the AR and my sig's and another couple hundred shooting skeet at the range this weekend. shot 190/200 at one stretch.

I've got my corner covered. ;)

Drop em over there where they feel they don't need em and we'll see how it goes ;)

[Hondo]

I don't see where the USA has an obligation, duty, or any other binding agreement to help any of them out. It's not any of our business. Leave them alone.

[ioan]

If the UN feels the need to get involved, then that's one thing. But a military mission that depends on the U.S. as the point man is not acceptable (IMO). I do wish the anti-Qaddafi (BTW, is there a name on earth that has MORE spelling variations???!!!) forces the very best of luck in overthrowing this kook. But it is not our (the U.S.'s) fight. Hopefully we are FINALLY getting to the point that we (and others) will stop thinking of the U.S. as the world's policeman.

Arab's spell the same name in several variations when using the Latin alphabet, so all is accepted and each one is as good as the others.

[BleAivano]

Arab's spell the same name in several variations when using the Latin alphabet, so all is accepted and each one is as good as the others.

The different spellings is because names and words that are translated and transcribed between two different languages/alphabets are spelled according to the phonetics (how the word sounds) and not letter by letter.
That means that that a name that is spelled in a certain way in English might be spelled differently in French or Swedish because the letter combinations that created the pronouncation
is/can be different in these languages.

One example is Russian pole vault star Елена Исинбаева. In Swedish her name will be Jelena Isinbajeva, in English: Yelena Isinbayeva, in French: Yelena Isinbayeva and in German: Jelena Issinbajewa.
Different spellings same pronouncation.

[edv]

There are at least 28 documented spellings of Ghaddafi. If you spoke Arabic, there'd only be one. But, as noted above, that's what you get with phonetic transliteration and translation.

I support a no-fly zone, or even a series of surgical strikes intended to level the playing field. No boots on the ground, though, else any victory will be seen as hollow or even tainted.

[Roamy]

I think soon we or nato will crater the runways and blast a few choppers out of the air. no need for boots

[Bob Riebe]

I think soon we or nato will crater the runways and blast a few choppers out of the air. no need for boots
As they have been saying in news shows, to do that we first need total air superiority which means first destroying all their aniti-air defenses.

That is easier said than done.
If a allied pilot gets shot down and cpatured, it will become a circus.

[Daniel]

Quite true bob, but I think it has to be done

[schmenke]

Dropping munitions onto Libya would be an act of war.

Also, keep in mind that the current Ghaddafi government is able to provide crude oil far more cheaply than an alternate stable “democratic” government.
Libya does not however, set crude oil prices, OPEC does, but Libya is an OPEC member country.

[Hondo]

I'm not sure why, but every time I hear about a Libyan No Fly Zone, I get a mental image of the great balloons & blunderbusses duel from the motion picture "Those Magnificent Men and their Flying Machines".

[nigelred5]

Right now, no boots, no bombs. It's not our business yet. His refineries and pumps are idled. In Libya, as despicable as he is, I worry more about what's left IF they get him out of power. I this case, I believe the old adage, "The evil you know is often better than the one you don't". If Libyans want him out, then let thm get him out.

[Eki]

I'm not sure why, but every time I hear about a Libyan No Fly Zone, I get a mental image of the great balloons & blunderbusses duel from the motion picture "Those Magnificent Men and their Flying Machines".
Bit like every time I hear about the motion picture "Hondo", I get a mental image of Foghorn Leghorn playing the main character instead of John Wayne.

[BDunnell]

Right now, no boots, no bombs. It's not our business yet. His refineries and pumps are idled. In Libya, as despicable as he is, I worry more about what's left IF they get him out of power. I this case, I believe the old adage, "The evil you know is often better than the one you don't". If Libyans want him out, then let thm get him out.

Two questions. First, did you feel the same about the Taliban in Afghanistan or Saddam Hussein? Second, how are we to find out whether the Libyans 'want him out'? Should we conduct an opinion poll and decide on that basis? It may very well be that a majority of Libyans do want him to go. Quite clearly, though, the rebels lack logistics support and firepower at the present time.

[BDunnell]

As they have been saying in news shows, to do that we first need total air superiority which means first destroying all their aniti-air defenses.

That is easier said than done.
If a allied pilot gets shot down and cpatured, it will become a circus.

Well, it might be easier said than done, but on the other hand the Libyan military has never been that formidable an adversary, and the capabilities of the country's armed forces have certainly not improved since they performed so poorly in the war in Chad during the mid-late 1980s.

[Tazio]

I really don't think it's a matter of degree of difficulty being a factor in taking out Libyan
command and control, and creating a no fly zone. The U.S. is being prudent in this matter. This is starting to look more and more like a popular uprising gone bad IMO. If the US goes in I think they want a coalition of forces from the UK, France, Italy, and a couple of African countries at least. I think the U.S. could practically do the entire job with cruise missiles, and drones. I'm of the opinion that the players in the west still think there is a chance of talking him out of there. This is starting to look less and less likely, althouh I think that once the big guns start to fire, Ghaddafi may regain his senses quite rapidly and cut a deal to leave. Ghaddafi has always been a paper tiger that talks a good game. He has very little military power, just enough to subjugate his citizens and little else. JMHO

[BDunnell]

I really don't think it's a matter of degree of difficulty being a factor in taking out Libyan
command and control, and creating a no fly zone. The U.S. is being prudent in this matter. This is starting to look more and more like a popular uprising gone bad IMO. If the US goes in I think they want a coalition of forces from the UK, France, Italy, and a couple of African countries at least. I think the U.S. could practically do the entire job with cruise missiles, and drones. I'm of the opinion that the players in the west still think there is a chance of talking him out of there. This is starting to look less and less likely, althouh I think that once the big guns start to fire, Ghaddafi may regain his senses quite rapidly and cut a deal to leave. Ghaddafi has always been a paper tiger that talks a good game. He has very little military power, just enough to subjugate his citizens and little else. JMHO

I agree with all of that, particularly the last sentence.

[schmenke]

... I think the U.S. could practically do the entire job with cruise missiles, and drones. ... JMHO

Here we go again…

Cruise missiles and other expendable munitions that cost cost several million $’s. Not to mention the cost of clean-up and rebuilding the damage. Likely to cost upwards of several $100M’s when all is said and done.

Just a thought… how about offering Ghaddafi and his cronies a bag of cash each in return for stepping down from power without a struggle. In the long run it would likely be a cheaper option with a lot less physical damage :mark:

[BDunnell]

Here we go again…

Cruise missiles and other expendable munitions that cost cost several million $’s. Not to mention the cost of clean-up and rebuilding the damage. Likely to cost upwards of several $100M’s when all is said and done.

I don't think Mr Alcatraz' post was advocating that as an option, to be honest — at least that's not what I took it to mean. I would emphasise his use of the word 'could', i.e. 'has the ability to be able to'.

[Eki]

Here we go again…

Cruise missiles and other expendable munitions that cost cost several million $’s. Not to mention the cost of clean-up and rebuilding the damage. Likely to cost upwards of several $100M’s when all is said and done.

Just a thought… how about offering Ghaddafi and his cronies a bag of cash each in return for stepping down from power without a struggle. In the long run it would likely be a cheaper option with a lot less physical damage :mark:
I don't think Ghaddafi is short of cash, his body guards and military might however take the offer.

[BDunnell]

I don't think Ghaddafi is short of cash, his body guards and military might however take the offer.

When one considers that Libya has something like the world's eighth largest oil reserves, and then sees for oneself the state of the country, I think your assumption about the regime's finances is probably accurate.

[Tazio]

I don't think Mr Alcatraz' post was advocating that as an option, to be honest — at least that's not what I took it to mean. I would emphasise his use of the word 'could', i.e. 'has the ability to be able to'.I was only emphasizing the potential! We could do just as much damage with Fighter/Bombers, and I am certainly not advocating hostilities right now.
There is still time for diplomacy. We live in an information age that facilitates ideas like the committing of your citizens lives into war is moving too slowly. I feel for the Libyan rebels. But they should have known the risk of possibly having to go it alone. I think at this point it's a tough call. A cease fire would be one option, but that would not guaranty the safety of the loyalists, (which there may be more of than many of us are being lead to believe, even if they are being loyal to a madman. They may replace him with another younger madman) or the rebels.
This whole shooting match stinks of what could degrade into the aftermath of deposing Saddam Husain

[Mark in Oshawa]

I just think this is VERY ironic that many of the people practically begging the US to get involved are some of the same people that ripped them for going to Iraq and Afghanistan.

I read in the paper that one of the freedom fighters was mad the Americans haven't helped them already. Well, considering how well Iraqi's treated the Americans for liberating them (some, not all approved); and how well Arab's seem to switch sides, I can honestly say staying out of this thing is the best for the West.

I heard on the news on the way home from work that the Arab League wants a no fly zone. Well here is a clue Arab League. All those fighters you would use without thought on the Israeli's if you had the stones and the ability could go over to Libya and settle Gaddafi's hash. You don't NEED the USA, UK, France, Germany, Canada or Italy to do this.

It is sad that one part of the world provides us with 95% of the world's headaches. It isn't that I want to dislike Libyans, Arabs or Muslims, but the one common factor is they all seem to change sides in every conflict and they often want others to do messy things for them. Just my opinion, but over history, the stories of the Berbers, the Barbary Coast pirates and the like in this part of the world really haven't changed, just the weapons have. Yes, they want freedom from Gaddafi. All power to em...but keep me out of it.

The Arab League is a joke, and justice in the Middle East is a joke, and it will be after Gaddafi and his inbred sons are gone too.

Lets just stay out of this one....it is about time the Arab world quit bitching and making excuses and cleaned up one of their own messes for a change....

[BDunnell]

I just think this is VERY ironic that many of the people practically begging the US to get involved are some of the same people that ripped them for going to Iraq and Afghanistan.

I read in the paper that one of the freedom fighters was mad the Americans haven't helped them already. Well, considering how well Iraqi's treated the Americans for liberating them (some, not all approved); and how well Arab's seem to switch sides, I can honestly say staying out of this thing is the best for the West.

I heard on the news on the way home from work that the Arab League wants a no fly zone. Well here is a clue Arab League. All those fighters you would use without thought on the Israeli's if you had the stones and the ability could go over to Libya and settle Gaddafi's hash. You don't NEED the USA, UK, France, Germany, Canada or Italy to do this.

It is sad that one part of the world provides us with 95% of the world's headaches. It isn't that I want to dislike Libyans, Arabs or Muslims, but the one common factor is they all seem to change sides in every conflict and they often want others to do messy things for them. Just my opinion, but over history, the stories of the Berbers, the Barbary Coast pirates and the like in this part of the world really haven't changed, just the weapons have. Yes, they want freedom from Gaddafi. All power to em...but keep me out of it.

The Arab League is a joke, and justice in the Middle East is a joke, and it will be after Gaddafi and his inbred sons are gone too.

Lets just stay out of this one....it is about time the Arab world quit bitching and making excuses and cleaned up one of their own messes for a change....

That's all very well, but what I find a little unbelievable about your tone is the fact that you seem to absolve the invading Coalition forces of all blame for the failures in Afghanistan and Iraq, and — a rather more minor point, but one that still irritated me somewhat — the Israelis of all blame for their role in any potential conflict with any other Middle Eastern nation.

[Eki]

That's all very well, but what I find a little unbelievable about your tone is the fact that you seem to absolve the invading Coalition forces of all blame for the failures in Afghanistan and Iraq, and — a rather more minor point, but one that still irritated me somewhat — the Israelis of all blame for their role in any potential conflict with any other Middle Eastern nation.
True. People are talking about a no-fly zone over Libya, but no one talks about a no-fly zone over Gaza, West Bank and Lebanon when the Israeli air force is pounding the Palestinians and the Lebanese.

[Bob Riebe]

That's all very well, but what I find a little unbelievable about your tone is the fact that you seem to absolve the invading Coalition forces of all blame for the failures in Afghanistan and Iraq, and — a rather more minor point, but one that still irritated me somewhat — the Israelis of all blame for their role in any potential conflict with any other Middle Eastern nation.Coalition forces should be blamed for what in Afghanistan?

[Roamy]

True. People are talking about a no-fly zone over Libya, but no one talks about a no-fly zone over Gaza, West Bank and Lebanon when the Israeli air force is pounding the Palestinians and the Lebanese.

That is because most nations believe the Isralis should be pounding these murdering fuchs

[airshifter]

I just think this is VERY ironic that many of the people practically begging the US to get involved are some of the same people that ripped them for going to Iraq and Afghanistan.

I read in the paper that one of the freedom fighters was mad the Americans haven't helped them already. Well, considering how well Iraqi's treated the Americans for liberating them (some, not all approved); and how well Arab's seem to switch sides, I can honestly say staying out of this thing is the best for the West.

I heard on the news on the way home from work that the Arab League wants a no fly zone. Well here is a clue Arab League. All those fighters you would use without thought on the Israeli's if you had the stones and the ability could go over to Libya and settle Gaddafi's hash. You don't NEED the USA, UK, France, Germany, Canada or Italy to do this.

It is sad that one part of the world provides us with 95% of the world's headaches. It isn't that I want to dislike Libyans, Arabs or Muslims, but the one common factor is they all seem to change sides in every conflict and they often want others to do messy things for them. Just my opinion, but over history, the stories of the Berbers, the Barbary Coast pirates and the like in this part of the world really haven't changed, just the weapons have. Yes, they want freedom from Gaddafi. All power to em...but keep me out of it.

The Arab League is a joke, and justice in the Middle East is a joke, and it will be after Gaddafi and his inbred sons are gone too.

Lets just stay out of this one....it is about time the Arab world quit bitching and making excuses and cleaned up one of their own messes for a change....

Let them deal with it themselves, or let the nations of whiners deal with it for a change. The US will be the bad guy no matter what we do, so for a change we should do for the US and let the others deal with it.

As a side note, US Marine officers still carry a sword that is tradition started in Tripoli, where the US flag was raised for the first time on foreign soil after a military victory. All it took was a hand full of Marines. Maybe if all of the EU gets involved they can handle it themselves. :)

[Mark in Oshawa]

That's all very well, but what I find a little unbelievable about your tone is the fact that you seem to absolve the invading Coalition forces of all blame for the failures in Afghanistan and Iraq, and — a rather more minor point, but one that still irritated me somewhat — the Israelis of all blame for their role in any potential conflict with any other Middle Eastern nation.

I don't absolve them of blame. I just think that going to Libya will put them in yet another situation where they get blamed for whatever happens, whether it is their fault or not.

AS for this crap about Israel, the last I looked, they were not attacking anyone. If the Arab world was as worried about Muslims and Pakistan was as worried about Muslims and everyone was as worried about the Palestinians as you and Eki are, then I would buy your arguments. The fact is, the people who kill, maim, torture and mistreat Palestinians, Muslims and any other minority in the Middle East are the same people. Pakistan is a failed state with nuclear weapons and a bunch of radical tribes fighting for power. The Palestinians are treated as badly if not worse in Lebanon, Jordan and Syria by those governments at times, as any Muslim living with an Israeli passport.

Sorry, I refuse to buy into this notion that Israel is the problem in the middle east. If they were nuked happily by the Iranians (I didn't even start to point the finger at them for half the crap that is started in this part of the world, but they are guilty too) tomorrow, this wouldn't bring any peace at all. Because now the Palenstians would demand someone give them what they need to live, because for 60 years, they have been getting aid from anyone willing to give them money, and most of it ended up in Swiss Bank accounts owned by their late great leader. That however isnt' the point of this thread....

This mess in Libya is yet another case of a failed state coming apart, and it is of course, All the West's fault or conversely, all the West's problem if they don't fix it.
There is no good that can come of the NATO nations putting a no fly zone on this country. There was a no fly over Iraq for Hussein but it didn't stop him killing 20000 people a year.

No fly zone over Israel...you guys make me laugh. The Israeli's don't need their airforce to make life miserable for the Palestinians. The Palestinians do most of it to themselves....

[Hondo]

If the Arab League wants a "No Fly Zone" over Libya, fine, let them put one there. They have aircraft, cash and pilots. Get 'er done, son.

[BDunnell]

I don't absolve them of blame. I just think that going to Libya will put them in yet another situation where they get blamed for whatever happens, whether it is their fault or not.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think military action is desirable either and tend to think that the best option is to stay out while taking steps to try and 'assist' Gaddafi's downfall, but I don't think that foreign policy can be determined on whether those prosecuting it are 'blamed' afterwards for any failings. The way to avoid blame is to make one's foreign policy ventures successful. Easier said than done, of course, but surely the correct ambition if countries are to have foreign policies and carry them out?



AS for this crap about Israel, the last I looked, they were not attacking anyone. If the Arab world was as worried about Muslims and Pakistan was as worried about Muslims and everyone was as worried about the Palestinians as you and Eki are, then I would buy your arguments. The fact is, the people who kill, maim, torture and mistreat Palestinians, Muslims and any other minority in the Middle East are the same people. Pakistan is a failed state with nuclear weapons and a bunch of radical tribes fighting for power. The Palestinians are treated as badly if not worse in Lebanon, Jordan and Syria by those governments at times, as any Muslim living with an Israeli passport.

Sorry, I refuse to buy into this notion that Israel is the problem in the middle east. If they were nuked happily by the Iranians (I didn't even start to point the finger at them for half the crap that is started in this part of the world, but they are guilty too) tomorrow, this wouldn't bring any peace at all. Because now the Palenstians would demand someone give them what they need to live, because for 60 years, they have been getting aid from anyone willing to give them money, and most of it ended up in Swiss Bank accounts owned by their late great leader. That however isnt' the point of this thread....

The only point of view I will ever accept regarding the Israel/Palestine situation — and I agree this is going off topic, but you brought it up — is that which states that both sides are equally appalling to each other. Those who fall hook, line and sinker for either the Israeli or Palestinian propaganda I find deeply depressing. This is not a 'sitting on the fence' position, merely a realistic one.



This mess in Libya is yet another case of a failed state coming apart, and it is of course, All the West's fault or conversely, all the West's problem if they don't fix it.

Who said it was 'all the West's fault'? I don't feel the West deserves to feel any sense of responsibility. But our leaders, both in politics and business, could be more careful and responsible about with whom they do business. As one would hope we now recognise, there comes a time when close relations with characters such as the bin Ladens, Saddam Hussein and Colonel Gaddafi are rendered not just undesirable but deeply embarrassing. Surely a more long-termist approach to foreign policy is now necessary?

[BDunnell]

If the Arab League wants a "No Fly Zone" over Libya, fine, let them put one there. They have aircraft, cash and pilots. Get 'er done, son.

I would tend to agree. Not going to happen, though, despite the huge limitations of Libya's air arm compared with any of its near neighbours.

[Hondo]

I would tend to agree. Not going to happen, though, despite the huge limitations of Libya's air arm compared with any of its near neighbours.

If they aren't willing to spend their own blood and treasure on the cause, then they can shut up or hire professionals. It's their problem, their land, their culture, and they can deal with it.

[BDunnell]

If they aren't willing to spend their own blood and treasure on the cause, then they can shut up or hire professionals. It's their problem, their land, their culture, and they can deal with it.

Since when have you applied this view to foreign policy?

[Hondo]

That is, and has always been my personal view on foreign policy. La La Land and Democracy isn't for everybody. I see no reason to force it upon people that can't make it work. I don't believe in "coalition governments", peacekeeping actions and silly assed UN or EU resolutions. They don't resolve anything, they merely postpone the end game. Memories fade over time and there are many more younger users of forums such as these than there are older users. People forget the amount of real fear there was of communisim, Russia, and Red China at the end of the second world war. The United States was the only nation left standing with enough breath left to stand against them on a global basis and, to the relief of the western world, did so.

I can think of no other nation in history that has acted so altruistically as the United States of America has since World War 2. We spent huge amounts of money on NATO, SEATO, and a dozen other organizations for the protection of others. What meddling it did was usually in the cause of local democracy and stability that benefited the emerging industrial nations. We seized no lands and formed no colonies. Our meddling in the Middle East has very much helped bring stability to the region and for a long time, cheap energy flowing to Europe, Japan, and the rest of the world. Over the years I have had to listen to the usual idiots scream about "it's the oil" everytime we do something in the Middle East. Sure it's the oil. But not for us. We don't control any oil in the Middle East. We don't even get a price break from Kuwait or Iraq. We are accused of propping Israel up. As Obama backs further away from the Middle East people are going to learn that we have been holding Israel back, not up. Look at how things are unraveling now overthere as people begin to sense that the US is going to avoid getting involved.

I'm tired of hearing about how everything is the fault of the US. Been tired of it for years. Fine, do it yourselves. Spend your money and blood.

[BDunnell]

I'm tired of hearing about how everything is the fault of the US. Been tired of it for years. Fine, do it yourselves. Spend your money and blood.

I would never say 'everything'. But some acknowlegements of failings would be good once in a while, on the part of many a government.

[Hondo]

I would also note that most of those "failings" come with the added benefit of many years of hindsight, not what was know or believed at the time.

[Daniel]

Just saw something on the news that really angered me. Don't know what news station it is but they seem to allow halfwits to send SMS messages in and this was one of the messages that came through.

"Their mistake was to take Gaddafi's weapons weapons. Did they really expect that a regime was just peacefully going to give up power? You don't protest with guns" from someone in Manchester

What a dickhead! Seriously, you live in a country where you don't even need to protest to have the most basic freedoms which are denied to Libyans and you're telling them how to gain democracy in their own countries? Does this halfwit moron ****tard actually think that a delusional fruitcake like Gaddafi would give up power even if every single person in Libya protested peacefull against him?

For someone to sit in their house in Manchester with all the freedoms in the world and tell Libyans that they're "doing it wrong" is insulting and indicative of the simplistic and narrow views that some people in the 1st world have towards people who have little power and no democracy.

Sorry about all the swear words but this has genuinely angered me so much.

How many people in countries occupied by tyranical forces or even perhaps slightly better countries like Britain in its colonial days gained freedom by walking out in the streets with flowers and singing about giving peace a chance and other such crap. Few people feel that military action should be taken for the sake of it, but I think most people agree that peaceful means of protest can only go so far and sometimes you've got to take military action and kill those who stand in the way freedom for the majority.

[Tazio]

I think it is bad policy to promote democracy, and then completely absolve yourself of any interest in facilitating the dogma that you will summon, and stand on in a separate issue. France and the UK have already recognized the new provisional government. (I hope I'm not mistaken about the UK) Either, or could knock Ghadaffi into tomorrow if that is what it comes to. I believe that they are seriously reconsidering a complete alliance with the rebels because of what the aftermath may produce. Diplomacy is a realistic solution to this issue. I suspect that there will be an arrangement that will benefit the people of Libya. But if it comes down to a military conflict I don't believe either France or The UK will tell other countries that if you don't join our coalition you can't have any of the spoils of war
This is really like a hand of poker. Ghadaffi at least should be made to call a bluff.

[Mark]

The UK foreign secretary says they recognise states and not governments so they could officially recognise either side as the legitimate government.

[Hondo]

He is calling a bluff. He's not moving any time soon. Britain is still upset about the Col. breaking it off in them and making them look stupid in the dying prisoner for oil deal.

[Hondo]

England and France don't give a rat's ass about Lybia, what they are trying to prevent is 500,000 screaming Lybian refugees banging on their front door.

[BDunnell]

He is calling a bluff. He's not moving any time soon. Britain is still upset about the Col. breaking it off in them and making them look stupid in the dying prisoner for oil deal.

I'm afraid your analysis is flawed on the grounds that the British government has changed since al Megrahi was released, and whatever one may say about the current coalition, I don't think it will be bothered in the slightest by the previous administration's actions in that case.

[BDunnell]

England and France don't give a rat's ass about Lybia, what they are trying to prevent is 500,000 screaming Lybian refugees banging on their front door.

A) It's Libya.

B) 500,000? You exaggerate somewhat in trying to make your point. The notion that such large numbers would seek to make their way to the UK or France is fanciful. Italy is a different matter, perhaps.

[Hondo]

No one wants them. There, is that better?

[BDunnell]

No one wants them. There, is that better?

Whatever, I would consider the current situation to be ample grounds for people fleeing. I very much doubt many will end up in Europe, though.

[BDunnell]

How many people in countries occupied by tyranical forces or even perhaps slightly better countries like Britain in its colonial days gained freedom by walking out in the streets with flowers and singing about giving peace a chance and other such crap. Few people feel that military action should be taken for the sake of it, but I think most people agree that peaceful means of protest can only go so far and sometimes you've got to take military action and kill those who stand in the way freedom for the majority.

Those arguments could also have been used in relation to Iraq, which is why I always hesitated using them in relation to Zimbabwe, and why I would hesitate to use them now in relation to Libya.

[donKey jote]

How many people in countries occupied by tyranical forces or even perhaps slightly better countries like Britain in its colonial days gained freedom by walking out in the streets with flowers and singing about giving peace a chance and other such crap.
not many I guess, here's one that might qualify though:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnation_Revolution
:)

[Daniel]

I think it is bad policy to promote democracy, and then completely absolve yourself of any interest in facilitating the dogma that you will summon, and stand on in a separate issue. France and the UK have already recognized the new provisional government. (I hope I'm not mistaken about the UK) Either, or could knock Ghadaffi into tomorrow if that is what it comes to.

I completely agree.

[Hondo]

Let's not forget there was a time that Col. Gaddafi was the popular choice, and still may be with the majority. I think outside agitation has a lot to do with all of this.

[Tazio]

He is calling a bluff. He's not moving any time soon. Britain is still upset about the Col. breaking it off in them and making them look stupid in the dying prisoner for oil deal. LOL
If you don't like my stance on what was meant to be an appeal for a non-violent resolution, perhaps my opinion on post #35, or #41 are more to your liking?

BTW this imagery of Great Britain being sodomized by the colonel is really clever.
Where would you say he penetrated, at the Thames or at a scenic trout stream in the Scottish Highlands closer to where the prisoner had been incarcerated? :confused:

[BDunnell]

Let's not forget there was a time that Col. Gaddafi was the popular choice, and still may be with the majority. I think outside agitation has a lot to do with all of this.

Sounds quite a lot like his own rhetoric.

[Hondo]

Who's to say his own rhetoric is wrong? I don't know the man and don't live there. I do know that al-Qaeda has been a major pain in the butt in Saudi Arabia ever since Iraq invaded Kuwait. With the western former powers unwilling or unable to get more involved in the Middle East, this would be a lovely time to stir the pot.

[Daniel]

Those arguments could also have been used in relation to Iraq, which is why I always hesitated using them in relation to Zimbabwe, and why I would hesitate to use them now in relation to Libya.

I meant in regards to people from said country having a revolution, not outside powers invading to do what they see fit :)

[Tazio]

Let's not forget there was a time that Col. Gaddafi was the popular choice, and still may be with the majority. I think outside agitation has a lot to do with all of this.
I think you are paranoid! I myself am skeptical and I have stated so on this thread. The difference is that I will not unilaterally reject the belief that dialog and cooperation is something quite different.
Submitted for your antagonistic rejection:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/14/opinion/14slaughter.html
I still think you have jumped the gun and, are trying to even a score on past trespasses. Your position is too simple minded to understand that diplomacy, and co-operation of the players in that part of the world is a real attainable goal. Perhaps you would dismiss this whole chapter in world history. The situation is dire in Libya but it still has a pulse.
These things take time. It is just your hatred of the current administration, and guilt about the underhandedness of the last that makes you want to see this situation fall apart. This particular one may, but it's only a matter of time, because this is an honest revolution. Hopefully someone who is less partisan, and vindictive will realize that this is a hinge-pin in the fight that has a much larger upside than down.
Although I doubt you actualy care for humanity in North Africa. Thankfully I am confident that this will get done with or without us in the not too distant future.


The United States and Europe are temporizing on a no-flight zone while the Organization of the Islamic Conference, the Gulf Cooperation Council and now the Arab League have all called on the United Nations Security Council to authorize one. Opponents of a no-flight zone have put forth five main arguments, none of which, on close examination, hold up.

[Hondo]

I see nothing paranoid in my statement. I can easily envision al-Qaeda in the back of the room, urging these rebels on. The article is merely additional opinion on the subject

[Tazio]

I see nothing paranoid in my statement. I can easily envision al-Qaeda in the back of the room, urging these rebels on. The article is merely additional opinion on the subjectFirst of all I apologize for assuming that I know what it is that motivates you politically, and the tone I used.
I do think that you are entitled to your opinion. We disagree profoundly in the arena of terror. Terror will never cease to exist. But I am of a strong opinion that happy free and truly democratic North Africa is a positive change for all these people.
The editorial is only an opinion.
An opinion of a professor of politics and international affairs at Princeton. Someone that has credentials in these matters.
The point I have been trying to make is that diplomacy is an ongoing process, with or without this one succeeding is not the end of the story.
I personally think that country would cultivate freedom as opposed to tyranny. I just have a hard time with hearing lame reasons not to supportf a country that is in revolt for all the right reasons. Technology has finally been the engine that helped these people realizes that they deserve more of what their dictators have tried to keep from them. The fear of terrorism should never trump liberty at home, or abroad only legitimate evidence will.
However I am willing to listen to, or read with keen interest anything that has legitimate connections to real evidence to dissuade me from thinking this movement is the real voice of these people's cause.
But paranoia, leading to unfounded self centered bigotry I will have none of.
I am hopeful for Africa

[Mark]

The Arab League is calling for the no fly zone, but it's time they stepped up and did something about it. This is an Arab issue and it's for the Arabian nations to solve their own problems. They have airforces and armies too, but I guess they don't want to be helping overthrow a dictatorship which would put their own position in doubt!

[Retro Formula 1]

It's an interesting dilemia.

Lybia has had their membership suspended because of the current situation but of the other major members, half of them have their hands full with problems in their own Countries.

My view is that we should let them deal with it but if the League of Arab States does want to be proactive and impose a No Fly Zone, I would like to see Amr Moussa approach Nato with a request for assistance in a Joint operation.

[Mark]

The problem is as soon as any NATO jets get involved we'll hear universal cries of interference from America (even if America isn't involved!). Which would mark a new Libyan leadership out as being in the pocket of the west. This won't help local stability at all!

[Roamy]

I think you are paranoid! I myself am skeptical and I have stated so on this thread. The difference is that I will not unilaterally reject the belief that dialog and cooperation is something quite different.
Submitted for your antagonistic rejection:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/14/opinion/14slaughter.html
I still think you have jumped the gun and, are trying to even a score on past trespasses. Your position is too simple minded to understand that diplomacy, and co-operation of the players in that part of the world is a real attainable goal. Perhaps you would dismiss this whole chapter in world history. The situation is dire in Libya but it still has a pulse.
These things take time. It is just your hatred of the current administration, and guilt about the underhandedness of the last that makes you want to see this situation fall apart. This particular one may, but it's only a matter of time, because this is an honest revolution. Hopefully someone who is less partisan, and vindictive will realize that this is a hinge-pin in the fight that has a much larger upside than down.
Although I doubt you actualy care for humanity in North Africa. Thankfully I am confident that this will get done with or without us in the not too distant future.

So does this mean if we support democracy then we have to be open to taking refugees from the embattled country?? If so then I think we should go find and "good" dictator. I think other Euro countries should be allowed to control their immigration down to the single person level. This world is rapidly turning into a giant cesspool and playing a large role is immigration.

[Tazio]

So does this mean if we support democracy then we have to be open to taking refugees from the embattled country?? If so then I think we should go find and "good" dictator. I think other Euro countries should be allowed to control their immigration down to the single person level. This world is rapidly turning into a giant cesspool and playing a large role is immigration.
No It means if we support democracy and not start crying the sky is falling, we won’t need to.
How many Egyptian and Tunisian refugees suddenly showed up looking for a hand out! My point has been to get the situation through diplomacy to cool down. This is not a true false test, with sudden perfectly functioning governments in place. If your looking for instant gratification you missed the flight to Thailand

[Roamy]

Why aren't the freaking TIREs blowing the Sh!t out of Ghaddfi?????

[Roamy]

Well the TIREs let ghadaffi stay in power so maybe iran and the muslim brotherhood has a greater impact than we thought.

[Dave B]

Nurse! He's out of bed again...

[Tazio]

Why aren't the freaking TIREs blowing the Sh!t out of Ghaddfi?????
I have flip-flopped a couple times on this issue. And I think Sarkosy might have jumped the gun MAYBE
I have a very simplistic view as to who should participate in these events. I felt that Great Britain had to go to Iraq with us because they were largely responsible for drawing the borders in that part of the world, I know it doesn't really stand up to logic. As for Libya, It was an Italian Colony for about 35 years and I think they should step up to the plate. As an aside, they had a Grand Prix there and one year was what is considered the worse race fixing scandle in the pre F1 era and it included my man Tazio
http://www.lifeinitaly.com/heroes-villains/tazio-nuvolari

Nuvolari's career was not without its scandals, like the accusations of race fixing at the Tripoli Grand Prix. Along with Baconin Borzacchini and Achilee Varzi, it is said that Nuvolari fixed the race in order to get benefits from the Libyan State lottery. Dtype, Ron, Arrows and I suspect many more or could fill in the details.

From what I understand the Last city the rebels hold is not a place that Gadaffi is, or has been welcome. So there is a chance that there can be a resolution, or at least a time to reflect on the fact that there are 1 million citizens that are willing to fight to the last man.
Other than that Obama pussed out and I've taken him off my Christmas list.

[donKey jote]

As for Libya, It was an Italian Colony for about 35 years and I think they should step up to the plate.
Ask Berlusconi about his pacts with Gadaffi ;) :dozey:

[Tazio]

Ask Berlusconi about his pacts with Gadaffi ;) :dozey:

Have you got his number? :confused:
I have a cup of nice hot Coco with his name on it.

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSR73_sv_VQUlUNv-LCVX3hl7P8tHr9blcXKqtk-xhzkL3nDnya

[Roamy]

Ask Berlusconi about his pacts with Gadaffi ;) :dozey:

oh you mean the pedophile club ??

[Rollo]

Why aren't the freaking TIREs blowing the Sh!t out of Ghaddfi?????

The EU is an economic entity and not a military one. NATO which is the supra-national military alliance also includes the US and Canada. Also, because of the Berlin Plus agreement the EU would only act if NATO doesn't.

Your question should be "why isn't the US blowing up Gaddafi?" because in practice the US probably contributes 54% of NATO nation's spending by itself.
http://www.sipri.org/research/armaments/milex/resultoutput/milex_15

Really there isn't anything to be gained by interfering in what amounts to a Civil War. If you remove Gaddafi it creates a political vacuum, this then causes a state of anarchy which doesn't make anything better.

[Rudy Tamasz]

The EU is an economic entity and not a military one. NATO which is the supra-national military alliance also includes the US and Canada. Also, because of the Berlin Plus agreement the EU would only act if NATO doesn't.

Your question should be "why isn't the US blowing up Gaddafi?" because in practice the US probably contributes 54% of NATO nation's spending by itself.
http://www.sipri.org/research/armaments/milex/resultoutput/milex_15

Really there isn't anything to be gained by interfering in what amounts to a Civil War. If you remove Gaddafi it creates a political vacuum, this then causes a state of anarchy which doesn't make anything better.

The thing is the current regime has been violating human right for decades and then used military force against its own citizens. EU countries long advocated in favor of military interventions in case of humanitarian disaster caused by a tyrannical regime's crackdown on its own population. Bosnia and Kosovo were the precedents. Lybia is very similar.

I am not speaking pro or contra a military intervention. What I'm saying is that EU must be consistent. It should either state it's Lybia's internal affair and let Lybians fight it out, or it should effectively help those standing for the cause of freedom, championed by the EU. Trying to take some middle ground will make Europeans look like fools they already are.

[Mark]

Of course the military involvement in Kosovo was NATO, not EU. Although the EU did and does play a large role in the reconstruction and stabilisation of the former Yugoslav states.

[Rudy Tamasz]

Of course the military involvement in Kosovo was NATO, not EU. Although the EU did and does play a large role in the reconstruction and stabilisation of the former Yugoslav states.

Formally, yes. Substantially, though, NATO neither could nor would have done anything in Yugoslavia, had EU opposed the action. NATO and EU do overlap a lot.

[BDunnell]

The thing is the current regime has been violating human right for decades and then used military force against its own citizens. EU countries long advocated in favor of military interventions in case of humanitarian disaster caused by a tyrannical regime's crackdown on its own population. Bosnia and Kosovo were the precedents. Lybia is very similar.

I am not speaking pro or contra a military intervention. What I'm saying is that EU must be consistent. It should either state it's Lybia's internal affair and let Lybians fight it out, or it should effectively help those standing for the cause of freedom, championed by the EU. Trying to take some middle ground will make Europeans look like fools they already are.

In which case, we should presumably have intervened in Zimbabwe as well. And why just the EU?

[Hondo]

In which case, we should presumably have intervened in Zimbabwe as well. And why just the EU?

We did. It was known as Rhodesia and fed itself. Now, with the world's insistance upon majority rule, it is known as Zimbabwe and survives on handouts. Lets not forget the great job Idi Amin did in Uganda.

Majority rule government does not always present the best option or solution. The west is learning this now that the generations they have been feeding and growing on the dole, have become sizeable political voting blocks wanting better dole.

The USA needs to continue to let Lvbia be to handle it's own problems. The world won't like what follows Gaddafi.

[Tazio]

I'm still holding out hope that some government (preferably one that still has a hair left on their @ss) at least attempt a surgical extraction. It's not likely, and I don't blame anyone for this mess. But please do not try to justify not acting because this is Al Qaeda masquerading as repressed citizens of a tyrannical demented leader.

[BDunnell]

I'm still holding out hope that some government (preferably one that still has a hair left on their @ss) at least attempt a surgical extraction. It's not likely, and I don't blame anyone for this mess. But please do not try to justify not acting because this is Al Qaeda masquerading as repressed citizens of a tyrannical demented leader.

A notion for which no proof has been presented at all, except by Gaddafi himself, and I would have thought his demented ramblings are worth little credence.

[Tazio]

Yet menbers of the American posse have!

[Hondo]

You are way, way overblowing my opinion. I am not saying, and have never said that al_Qaeda is behind all of this completely. I'm saying al-Qaeda has an interest in any activity that brings instability to a sitting government whether they are the cause of it or not. If this was strictly a popular revolution, al-Qaeda will still be in there, poking away, trying to set themselves up as the new government.

[BDunnell]

You are way, way overblowing my opinion. I am not saying, and have never said that al_Qaeda is behind all of this completely. I'm saying al-Qaeda has an interest in any activity that brings instability to a sitting government whether they are the cause of it or not. If this was strictly a popular revolution, al-Qaeda will still be in there, poking away, trying to set themselves up as the new government.

I have my doubts as to whether the Libyan rebels would countenance this for one moment, were it happening, which is extremely doubtful.

[Hondo]

Gaddafi is not going to bail as long as silly assed organizations mumble his name along with threats of war crimes, with was an idealistically cool, but in reality, an incredibly stupid road to ever go down.

[Hondo]

I have my doubts as to whether the Libyan rebels would countenance this for one moment, were it happening, which is extremely doubtful.
If they succede at all, the libyan rebels will be beat to their knees even if they win. All you need amongst that confusion are the standard exploding people and election scare tactics to keep people in fear of what a weak central government can't control. The rest of the world all have their own battles to fight to save themselves and the USA doesn't want to play anymore.

[BDunnell]

If they succede at all, the libyan rebels will be beat to their knees even if they win. All you need amongst that confusion are the standard exploding people and election scare tactics to keep people in fear of what a weak central government can't control. The rest of the world all have their own battles to fight to save themselves and the USA doesn't want to play anymore.

In which case, I fail to see why this is in any sense the EU's responsibility any more than it is the US'.

[Rollo]

In which case, I fail to see why this is in any sense the EU's responsibility any more than it is the US'.

:up: Hear, hear.

It's exactly the same question as: If civil unrest broke out in Ensenada, Baja California, why would it be the responsibility of the government in Sacramento, or indeed Washington DC?

[Hondo]

The Angels, probably.

[Tazio]

I left the coversation because I have started to develope bronchites symtoms and had to lay down. I don't understand
what the above response is referring to.

[markabilly]

As the Honorable Chairman Mao said, all power comes out of the barrel of a gun...

Mr. Kadifiefeefee understands that quite well and is using that power quite well, with the kind of ruthless pyscho behavior that has kept him in power but is the type that other leaders tend to shy away from, except the current rulers in Itan, the crazy old farts of north Korea, or the old dictatorship of Iraq.

He is dug in tighter than an Alambama blood sucking tick and it will take a bullet to the brain or a wholesale invasion by outside forces to push him out.

Just as long as nobody I know is getting dragged off somewhere to get their balls blown off to save another country from itself, let it be whatever and somebody else, like the French, the Germans or GB, or whoever. :rolleyes:

yeah Dunnel and all the rest of you, don't just talk, go on down there and put it to them!!

Hell, you aint lived nor had any real excitement in your life, until you get to hear those mosquitos buzzing by your ears and finally figure out that those are really bullets when you hear that god awful whomp that a bullet makes, when it hits the bone. So I think all you europeans need to just jump on down there..... :up:

Me ???I have had enough of all this to last me forever.

Of course, in Iraq, they kept driving down the price of oil with backdoor sales, so big oil and other powers that be, they decided Saddam needed to go. Mr kadifiefeeffeeffeee, he aint messing with them, so i think until he gets a bullet, he will stay where he is.........

[Bob Riebe]

The responsibility for Libya lies with the Libyans.
If,as was said on the boob tube over the weekend, you are an outside force and imply that you will take action, then do it. If you are not going to do that then keep your damn mouth shut and let those who are involved deal with those, both foe and friend, who are taking actions.
The politicians who prattle on like braying asses should crawl back into what ever hole they crawled out.

[Roamy]

when the rebels had the oil port and field they should have said - help now and you can have 30 dollar barrels for 30 years. They would have had a country by now.

[BDunnell]

The responsibility for Libya lies with the Libyans.

Fair enough, but did you believe this of Afghanistan in 2001, or Iraq in 2003?

[markabilly]

difference was 911. And with Kdaffiee, Regan should have dumped a few more bombs through his front door after the Pan Am bombing. It did not take much and kdaffieduck was crawling around, quacking like a duck, all peaceful like.

Instead a few years later, we got the one of the mastermind scum tricking the brits into letting him go home to a hero's welcome....

Blast them back to the stone age with a quick and massive strike, and all that nonsense will stop, but no, we got to go act cop and march around on the ground, dodging bullets to save some ingrates

[Mark]

It seems the strategy of it all is to talk about it for such a long time that Gadaffi's troops crush the rebels anyway, so it will be too late. At current rates the rebellion will be crushed in a few days.

[BDunnell]

Instead a few years later, we got the one of the mastermind scum tricking the brits into letting him go home to a hero's welcome....

I would be interested to know how and why you feel you know better than those who made the decision to release al-Megrahi (probably not the Lockerbie bomber anyway, but that's another debate) as to his medical condition. I grant that it is surprising for him to have lived for so long, but nonetheless it is difficult to fake such a condition, and there is no evidence for any collusion.

[BDunnell]

It seems the strategy of it all is to talk about it for such a long time that Gadaffi's troops crush the rebels anyway, so it will be too late. At current rates the rebellion will be crushed in a few days.

And then what? Interestingly, it now appears as if the US is backing a no-fly zone.

[Mark]

Wise after the event again?

While your post about 'Brits' is technically correct as all Scots are British, remember it was the Scottish government that decided to release him. The UK government was actually opposed to the move.

[Mark]

And then what? Interestingly, it now appears as if the US is backing a no-fly zone.


Well a no fly zone will be useless if the war is already won on the ground.

[markabilly]

Wise after the event again?

While your post about 'Brits' is technically correct as all Scots are British, remember it was the Scottish government that decided to release him. The UK government was actually opposed to the move.

good point

as to wise after the event, if it had been left to me, the guy would have got a bullet and saved the scottish taxpayers mucho peso from the getgo, and not "after the event"

[BDunnell]

Well a no fly zone will be useless if the war is already won on the ground.

Or unless what remains of the Libyan air force — which was already in a desperately sorry state — is rendered unusable.

[markabilly]

Well a no fly zone will be useless if the war is already won on the ground.

no fly zones are useless. Period.

Never go to war half-assed. Go all the way without any mercy, crush your enemies hard and fast, or just stay home and out of it.

As i said, earlier, the war is pretty much over. Kaddaffyduck, is just too brutal and nasty.

[Dave B]

Never go to war half-assed. Go all the way without any mercy, crush your enemies hard and fast, or just stay home and out of it.

Shame that Bush didn't have your much publicised foresight and wisdom before he led the charge into Iraq. Is there such an expression as "quarter-assed"? There is now.

[markabilly]

Shame that Bush didn't have your much publicised foresight and wisdom before he led the charge into Iraq. Is there such an expression as "quarter-assed"? There is now.

no there is NOT. The proper expression would have to be for that case is "backass backwards"

[Mark]

Part of the problem of the no-fly zone is that we (NATO in general) is already heavily committed in Iraq and Afghanistan so moving assets away from there to police Libya - which no idea when they will be released is a big decision to take. And Mark is right about one thing in that if you are going to do it - you need to do it properly.

[BDunnell]

Part of the problem of the no-fly zone is that we (NATO in general) is already heavily committed in Iraq and Afghanistan so moving assets away from there to police Libya - which no idea when they will be released is a big decision to take. And Mark is right about one thing in that if you are going to do it - you need to do it properly.

I do agree with that, but what does 'properly' mean in the case of a no-fly zone? Shooting down a transport aircraft full of mercenary troops inbound from a neighbouring country, or full of arms inbound from Belarus? This would presumably be one of the tasks, if said aircraft refused to turn back, but it would bring with it the possibility of an international incident. And it's worth pointing out that any British involvement in policing a no-fly zone will involve our Eurofighter Typhoons being deployed on operations for the first time.

[Mark]

I do agree with that, but what does 'properly' mean in the case of a no-fly zone? Shooting down a transport aircraft full of mercenary troops inbound from a neighbouring country, or full of arms inbound from Belarus? This would presumably be one of the tasks, if said aircraft refused to turn back, but it would bring with it the possibility of an international incident. And it's worth pointing out that any British involvement in policing a no-fly zone will involve our Eurofighter Typhoons being deployed on operations for the first time.

By properly I mean not just a couple of Tornado's overflying Tripoli a couple of times a day. I mean a full control of the skies with an instant challenge to anything that gets more than a few feet off the ground, this means deploying the likes of AWACS and having significant numbers of fighter aircraft in the air over Libya at all times. It's no small undertaking.

[Tazio]

no fly zones are useless. Period.

I disagree, The No Fly zone that the first Bush put on Iraq was an unconditional success. When Bill succeeded him If Iraq abused it
He would, and did just lob a cruise missile in their grill, and Saddam would get the picture.
But that was post war.

[BDunnell]

I disagree, The No Fly zone that the first Bush put on Iraq was an unconditional success. When Bill succeeded him If Iraq abused it
He would, and did just lob a cruise missile in their grill, and Saddam would get the picture.
But that was post war.

And, perhaps more importantly in terms of public perception, before the second Iraq conflict.

[markabilly]

Part of the problem of the no-fly zone is that we (NATO in general) is already heavily committed in Iraq and Afghanistan so moving assets away from there to police Libya - which no idea when they will be released is a big decision to take. And Mark is right about one thing in that if you are going to do it - you need to do it properly.

who me? you must have me confused with someone else......

[markabilly]

I disagree, The No Fly zone that the first Bush put on Iraq was an unconditional success. When Bill succeeded him If Iraq abused it
He would, and did just lob a cruise missile in their grill, and Saddam would get the picture.
But that was post war.

Yeah after a major massive ground conflict that left the job very unfinished, but Saddam's army all shot to pieces

But there was good public perception ("they we be doing something serious here, dude!!!) regardless of the reality.

Of course, the no fly rule did not stopp Saddam from doing all sorts of mayhem to the Kurds, and to other factions.....even when we would drop the occaisonal cruise missle up his snoot. If you want to do something serious, put a no-fly and a few cruise missles aimed towards him personal. When Regan was sending bombs literally through his front door, Kadaffy cooled down real quick................. for a while.

[BDunnell]

Yeah after a major massive ground conflict that left the job very unfinished, but Saddam's army all shot to pieces

But there was good public perception ("they we be doing something serious here, dude!!!) regardless of the reality.

And it is debatable as to whether the Iraqi air force could have been that active even without the no-fly zone.


When Regan was sending bombs literally through his front door, Kadaffy cooled down real quick................. for a while.

The emphasis, there, I think should be on the last few words. In truth, the 1986 bombing of Libya perhaps did little good strategically.

[Dave B]

At the risk of going off on a massive tangent, the situation in Libya is an interesting exercise in what happens when the people who - having a right to bear arms - form themselves into a well regulated militia and attempt to overthrow their government. It doesn't look like it will end well.

Now imagine that the government you're trying to overthrow isn't one with a handful of aging fighter jets and some hired guerrillas, but one which is backed up by some of the biggest armed forces on the planet. :s

[Bob Riebe]

Fair enough, but did you believe this of Afghanistan in 2001, or Iraq in 2003?
In those situations the president did not blow hot air about what others should do, or he was considering doing.
Correct or not, the president said such will happen, and it did.

[Bob Riebe]

And then what? Interestingly, it now appears as if the US is backing a no-fly zone.
We have the prattle and chief for a president, not surprising at all.
What he is missing is a brother named Billy.

[Bob Riebe]

At the risk of going off on a massive tangent, the situation in Libya is an interesting exercise in what happens when the people who - having a right to bear arms - form themselves into a well regulated militia and attempt to overthrow their government. It doesn't look like it will end well.

Now imagine that the government you're trying to overthrow isn't one with a handful of aging fighter jets and some hired guerrillas, but one which is backed up by some of the biggest armed forces on the planet. :s

[b]LOL]/b]
Nice try bunky, but that analogy is absurd but funny.

[Retro Formula 1]

At the risk of going off on a massive tangent, the situation in Libya is an interesting exercise in what happens when the people who - having a right to bear arms - form themselves into a well regulated militia and attempt to overthrow their government. It doesn't look like it will end well.

Now imagine that the government you're trying to overthrow isn't one with a handful of aging fighter jets and some hired guerrillas, but one which is backed up by some of the biggest armed forces on the planet. :s

It's at limes like this where I'm happy Mr Riebe is on my ignore list so I don't have to read his replies :laugh:

[Tazio]

It's at limes like this where I'm happy Mr Riebe is on my ignore list so I don't have to read his replies :laugh:

I ain't taking the bait :laugh: :s mokin:

[BDunnell]

It's at limes like this where I'm happy Mr Riebe is on my ignore list so I don't have to read his replies :laugh:

I am very happy to paraphrase if you want.

[Mark]

When you have the ability to change the government by democratic means then armed revolution become unnecessary.

[BDunnell]

[b]LOL]/b]
Nice try bunky, but that analogy is absurd but funny.

Care to explain why it's absurd?

[BDunnell]

When you have the ability to change the government by democratic means then armed revolution become unnecessary.

Absolutely.

[BDunnell]

In those situations the president did not blow hot air about what others should do, or he was considering doing.
Correct or not, the president said such will happen, and it did.

I would much have preferred it if he had vacillated for a bit rather than going in with a madly religious zeal.

[Hondo]

Here's your "no fly zone". It's a way to be seen as doing something, while doing nothing. It's relatively clean, no boots on the ground, and safe for hi-tech western powers. The reality is that it won't keep Gaddafi from winning, something the rebels would have already done if they were actually a popular majority. Gaddafi will set up portable AA systems in neighborhoods, marketplaces, and schoolyards. They will paint the patroling aircraft with fire control radars which will cause the patrol aircraft to launch counter munitions. Next thing you know, Gaddafi will be on all the media feeds waving photos of civillians killed by no fly zone strikes. Sooner or later Gaddafi will get a pilot and parade him around until whatever nation bows to the goatherd and pulls out of the no fly club.

Stop this no fly crap and let Libya be.

[Bob Riebe]

Care to explain why it's absurd?
OK, let us see- Dave said: an interesting exercise in what happens when the people who - having a right to bear arms - form themselves into a well regulated militia and attempt to overthrow their government. It doesn't look like it will end well.

The Libyans have the right to bear arms?
I know nothing of what ever they have for a constitution, but I would not bet money on it.

A well regulated militia?
Regulated maybe, but that is as far as their "militia" fits what Dave is referring to in the U.S. Constitution.

Beyond that the U.S. has a large National Guard, who (now Dave is dealing with maybe kinda-sorta think here) are not puppets of Washington. They legally are controlled by the Governor of each state.
It would be just as easy to vision in this fiction scenario Dave is trying to float, that the various National Guards would defend their home State and tell Washington to go to hell.
This would give any so called "militia" top level tanks and aircraft.

In reality Dave's analogy is simply absurd at face value. (That doee not even take into account the well armed part of the U.S. civilian population.)

[BDunnell]

Here's your "no fly zone". It's a way to be seen as doing something, while doing nothing. It's relatively clean, no boots on the ground, and safe for hi-tech western powers. The reality is that it won't keep Gaddafi from winning, something the rebels would have already done if they were actually a popular majority. Gaddafi will set up portable AA systems in neighborhoods, marketplaces, and schoolyards. They will paint the patroling aircraft with fire control radars which will cause the patrol aircraft to launch counter munitions. Next thing you know, Gaddafi will be on all the media feeds waving photos of civillians killed by no fly zone strikes. Sooner or later Gaddafi will get a pilot and parade him around until whatever nation bows to the goatherd and pulls out of the no fly club.

Stop this no fly crap and let Libya be.

I don't think you answered my earlier question — would you have argued 'let Iraq be' before 2003?

[Roamy]

just give the rebels surface to air shoulder fired munitions

[Tazio]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8389565/Libya-UN-approves-no-fly-zone-as-British-troops-prepare-for-action.html


The first raids, possibly conducted by unmanned drones, could happen within hours if Colonel Gaddafi acts on his threat to "show no mercy" to rebels in Benghazi.

The RAF could become involved in any operation by this evening, according to British sources. However, the raids may be spearheaded by an Arab nation such as Qatar or the UAE.

Last night, Col Gaddafi threatened to launch retaliation attacks against passenger aircraft in the Mediterranean if foreign countries launch air strikes against Libya.
It's about effing time. I hope they bomb that sick ******* back into the Stone age.
Teddy Roosevelt is smiling in his grave, Walk softly but carry a big stick.
Hail Sarkosy!

[Hondo]

I don't think you answered my earlier question — would you have argued 'let Iraq be' before 2003?


I was against the Iraq invasion completely. I didn't see Iraq as a threat to the USA then or now. I did support the UN removing Iraq from Kuwait after his invasion of that country.

[Roamy]

I was against the Iraq invasion completely. I didn't see Iraq as a threat to the USA then or now. I did support the UN removing Iraq from Kuwait after his invasion of that country.

the problem is they should have removed saddam the first time around.

[J4MIE]

So, now there is this no fly zone over Libya about two weeks too late, do they expect Gaddafi to change his mind and stop what he's doing? I hope that the fireworks in Benghazi were not celebrating it's over just yet, I fear the worst :(

[BDunnell]

I was against the Iraq invasion completely. I didn't see Iraq as a threat to the USA then or now. I did support the UN removing Iraq from Kuwait after his invasion of that country.

My apologies for doubting you. I am in full agreement on both counts.

[BDunnell]

the problem is they should have removed saddam the first time around.

How much better that might have been for the world, not least in terms of the spread of anti-American feeling possibly being reduced by virtue of the 2003 campaign not being necessary, one can only speculate. Pity.

[BDunnell]

So, now there is this no fly zone over Libya about two weeks too late, do they expect Gaddafi to change his mind and stop what he's doing? I hope that the fireworks in Benghazi were not celebrating it's over just yet, I fear the worst :(

It might, in fairness, be able to stop some of what he's doing.

[Mark]

It will tip the balance slightly away from Gadaffi's forces, however the rebels are still outgunned.

[Dave B]

Was anyone else watching rolling news yesterday reminded of Chris Morris in The Day Today: "Yes..... it's WAR!"?

:s


r3BO6GP9NMY

From about 2m30s.

Sad reflection on what our TV news has become.

[Mark]

If Gadaffi still wins, then what then?!

Taking away from the actual situation in the country, this will be a good test for the Typhoon. (A silly name as that's a Russian submarine!)

[Dave B]

If Gadaffi still wins, then what then?!
Good question. The objective on this UN Resolution is to ensure no violence (yeah, right) rather than to take sides. If Gaddafi can take control by peaceful means (again: yeah, right) then theoretically he should be free to do so.

I can't help but think that this "no fly zone" will result in yet another long and bloody campaign with no strategy and no exit plan :s

[BDunnell]

Good question. The objective on this UN Resolution is to ensure no violence (yeah, right) rather than to take sides. If Gaddafi can take control by peaceful means (again: yeah, right) then theoretically he should be free to do so.

I can't help but think that this "no fly zone" will result in yet another long and bloody campaign with no strategy and no exit plan :s

Viz Iraq 1991-2003, unless Gaddafi is deposed.

[Mark]

[quote="Dave B"]

But of course it will have the opposite effect. Before you had ground troops and an airforce vs only ground troops. The airforce has been taken out of the equation, which has levelled the playing field, but that will just lead to even more fierce fighting on the ground and quite probably more loss of life than if Gadaffi had been allowed to sweep to victory - not that this would have been a good thing of course.

[Tazio]

So, now there is this no fly zone over Libya about two weeks too late, do they expect Gaddafi to change his mind and stop what he's doing? I hope that the fireworks in Benghazi were not celebrating it's over just yet, I fear the worst :(
No it is actually war, read the conditions it also includes any action that endangers non-combatants. Ghaddafi son just made a statement that it was a misunderstanding He has already made a staement saying he didn't mean to say he will kill anyone in his way. and only meant that he would encircle the city.It's really to bad for him because Hitlery ain't playing, And she is "one cold blooded piece of work") plus Sarkosy has got an itchy trigger finger. The colonel is Gone Johnson.
Once he said he would open up on commercial airliners if there was outside influence he sealed the deal.


Emphatically he added that ''It is by bombarding the positions of his opposition, with the few dozen airplanes and helicopters truly available to him, that the Libyan dictator overturned the strength ratio. We could have and still can neutralise his air vehicles with targeted bombardments. It is what France and Great Britain have been proposing for weeks
http://ansamed.biz/en/libia/news/ME.XEF65762.html

[Mark]

Then we're getting back to the idea of regime change, which has had a miserable history!

[BDunnell]

But of course it will have the opposite effect. Before you had ground troops and an airforce vs only ground troops. The airforce has been taken out of the equation, which has levelled the playing field, but that will just lead to even more fierce fighting on the ground and quite probably more loss of life than if Gadaffi had been allowed to sweep to victory - not that this would have been a good thing of course.

Possibly. But it may also stop the flow of mercenaries that Gaddafi has been bringing in from Chad and elsewhere, who have apparently been making a significant contribution to the fighting.

[BDunnell]

Then we're getting back to the idea of regime change, which has had a miserable history!

Depends how it is executed. Nobody is talking about an invasion here. If it brings about regime change in such a way as to be a purely Libyan matter, then fine — let them get on with it.

[Tazio]

:s ailor: Winning!

[Retro Formula 1]

Requested by and working in conjunction with the League of Arab Nations, the UN resolution will hopefully work.

The wording has been beefed up so that forces can be proactive in protecting civilians and may well act as a catalyst to renew efforts against Gidaffi.

Amazing what happens when democracy, diplomacy and due process and Law is followed.

[Tazio]

Requested by and working in conjunction with the League of Arab Nations, the UN resolution will hopefully work.

The wording has been beefed up so that forces can be proactive in protecting civilians and may well act as a catalyst to renew efforts against Gidaffi.

Amazing what happens when democracy, diplomacy and due process and Law is followed.
Something I was trying to beat into the thick heads of my fellow Americans on this thread. Obama said MG won't appreciate anything short of a stiff punch in the nose!
BTW it's am 4:30 and I'm not going to sleep untill I see something get blown up!

[BDunnell]

Amazing what happens when democracy, diplomacy and due process and Law is followed.

With respect, nothing has happened yet!

[Tazio]

Possibly. But it may also stop the flow of mercenaries that Gaddafi has been bringing in from Chad and elsewhere, who have apparently been making a significant contribution to the fighting.

Good point. MG has had his assets frozen. I'm sure he has other liquid assets. As I doubt these freakin' mercenaries are going to take a check going into battle against the best part of Western Europe and the "Great Satan" aka USA :s ailor:
Canada has contributed 12 F18’s Even Norway wants in on the beat-down!

[Mark]

Good point. MG has had his assets frozen. I'm sure he has other liquid assets. As I doubt these freakin' mercenaries are going to take a check going into battle against the best part of Western Europe and the "Great Satan" aka USA :s ailor:
Canada has contributed 12 F18’s Even Norway wants in on the beat-down!

Belgium has contributed fighter aircraft too.

[Dave B]

Good point. MG has had his assets frozen. I'm sure he has other liquid assets.
It would be quite surprising if he hasn't amassed some physical cash or gold for a rainy day - I doubt we've seen the end of the guerillas yet, unless they decide that they don't want to stick around and risk a bombing.

[Mark]

BBC News

Libya's government is declaring an immediate ceasefire, hours after a UN Security Council resolution backed a no-fly zone over the country.

[Roamy]

Well there you have it. The greatest President of all time has prevailed. One giant step for the New World Order. We are out of the war business and that is a good thing.

[Mark]

The greatest President of all time has prevailed.

Since David Cameron has been the one pushing the most for it I can only assume you are referring to him, and he's not a President, thankfully!

Or maybe you're referring to President Sarkozy?

[Dave B]

So what now?

Gadaffi is still in charge, that hasn't changed. There are still people who want him out, and he doesn't look like stepping down anytime soon. He's not about to sit back and let himself get overthrown.

The fat lady hasn't even begun warming up yet.

[Tazio]

So what now?

Gadaffi is still in charge, that hasn't changed. There are still people who want him out, and he doesn't look like stepping down anytime soon. He's not about to sit back and let himself get overthrown.

The fat lady hasn't even begun warming up yet. Winning!

[Roamy]

So what now?

Gadaffi is still in charge, that hasn't changed. There are still people who want him out, and he doesn't look like stepping down anytime soon. He's not about to sit back and let himself get overthrown.

The fat lady hasn't even begun warming up yet.


you are not advocating invading a sovereign nation are you??

[Dave B]

you are not advocating invading a sovereign nation are you??

No, hence the question "so what now?"

[Retro Formula 1]

No, hence the question "so what now?"

It's a great question and you have to say, an inspired move from Gadaffi.

Perhaps he thinks he has done enough to have effectivly crushed the rebellion and can mop up the rest with Secret Police.

It's going to be an interesting few days.

[Tazio]

Since David Cameron has been the one pushing the most for it I can only assume you are referring to him, and he's not a President, thankfully!

Or maybe you're referring to President Sarkozy? Actually I think the whole U,S, government has been turned upside down. When dabaya was the prez I always had the impression that Cheney was calling the shots. Now it appears that Hilary cleverly disguised as the Secretary of State is starting to make the calls as Barak who I'm pretty sure would rather be golfing with Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, and Bill, while shagging some fine wool

[Bob Riebe]

Viz Iraq 1991-2003, unless Gaddafi is deposed.
Do you remember the- road of death- where Saddams special forces were partially wiped out and how the politicians here moaned and wept about how that was not necessary?
Continually blathering about how it was immoral because the Iraqis were outgunned?

Had they gone in and finished Saddam the liberal jibberish that resulted from an army doing what armies do, would have made the moaning and weeping that resulted from the- road of death- seem like scrib notes.

[Tazio]

Possibly. But it may also stop the flow of mercenaries that Gaddafi has been bringing in from Chad and elsewhere, who have apparently been making a significant contribution to the fighting.
The second gulf war was completely unnecessary! George sr had already cut Sadams balls off'

[Bob Riebe]

The second gulf war was completely unnecessary! George sr had already cut Sadams balls off'
Compared to this Qadaffi is a pussy cast.

Shiite Uprising & the Marsh Arabs

At the end of the Persian Gulf War in 1991, southern Shiites and northern Kurds rebelled against Hussein's regime. In retaliation, Iraq brutally suppressed the uprising, killing thousands of Shiites in southern Iraq.

As supposed punishment for supporting the Shiite rebellion in 1991, Saddam Hussein's regime killed thousands of Marsh Arabs, bulldozed their villages, and systematically ruined their way of life. The Marsh Arabs had lived for thousands of years in the marshlands located in southern Iraq until Iraq built a network of canals, dykes, and dams to divert water away from the marshes. The Marsh Arabs were forced to flee the area, their way of life decimated.

The support for pushing Qaddafi out is weak if one wants to use his supposed crimes against his own people.
To be for this war and against Bush's cluster-f campaign is hypocrisy.
--------------------------------------

At the time, it seem that the Libyans who support Qaddafi, have no voice or are irrelevant in the eyes of the babbling politicians.

National Public Radio is finally mentioning those who support Qaddafi, and why.

[markabilly]

Compared to this Qadaffi is a pussy cast.

Shiite Uprising & the Marsh Arabs

At the end of the Persian Gulf War in 1991, southern Shiites and northern Kurds rebelled against Hussein's regime. In retaliation, Iraq brutally suppressed the uprising, killing thousands of Shiites in southern Iraq.

As supposed punishment for supporting the Shiite rebellion in 1991, Saddam Hussein's regime killed thousands of Marsh Arabs, bulldozed their villages, and systematically ruined their way of life. The Marsh Arabs had lived for thousands of years in the marshlands located in southern Iraq until Iraq built a network of canals, dykes, and dams to divert water away from the marshes. The Marsh Arabs were forced to flee the area, their way of life decimated.

The support for pushing Qaddafi out is weak if one wants to use his supposed crimes against his own people.
To be for this war and against Bush's cluster-f campaign is hypocrisy.


exactly my point earlier.

[Tazio]

Compared to this Qadaffi is a pussy cast.

Shiite Uprising & the Marsh Arabs

At the end of the Persian Gulf War in 1991, southern Shiites and northern Kurds rebelled against Hussein's regime. In retaliation, Iraq brutally suppressed the uprising, killing thousands of Shiites in southern Iraq.

As supposed punishment for supporting the Shiite rebellion in 1991, Saddam Hussein's regime killed thousands of Marsh Arabs, bulldozed their villages, and systematically ruined their way of life. The Marsh Arabs had lived for thousands of years in the marshlands located in southern Iraq until Iraq built a network of canals, dykes, and dams to divert water away from the marshes. The Marsh Arabs were forced to flee the area, their way of life decimated.

The support for pushing Qaddafi out is weak if one wants to use his supposed crimes against his own people.
To be for this war and against Bush's cluster-f campaign is hypocrisy.
--------------------------------------

At the time, it seem that the Libyans who support Qaddafi, have no voice or are irrelevant in the eyes of the babbling politicians.

National Public Radio is finally mentioning those who support Qaddafi, and why.

:s ailor: Winning

[BDunnell]

At the time, it seem that the Libyans who support Qaddafi, have no voice or are irrelevant in the eyes of the babbling politicians.

National Public Radio is finally mentioning those who support Qaddafi, and why.

To what extent did you care about the Iraqis who supported Saddam Hussein before he was overthrown? Or is your apparent support for Gaddafi based on the fact that Obama is amongst those supporting action against him, which therefore renders Gaddafi worthy of sympathy in your eyes?

[Tazio]

exactly my point earlier.

Then why did we have to make up a complete bull**** story to take care of him and threaten other countries if they didn't support us they wouldn't get to share in the spoils of war. I watched all UN discussion and I never heard that reason advanced as our stated goal' only bull**** lies, and threats.
Yellow cake u235 jerk-offs sweting through their suites. Pathetic excuse,
Don't fear the truth it will set you free





Winning

[Daniel]

I somehow doubt that the rebels got the memo about the ceasefire.

[Tazio]

I somehow doubt that the rebels got the memo about the ceasefire.

Why so?

[Daniel]

Why so?

Because one side can't immediately declare a ceasefire. It's like me punching you in the face on the street and when you're about to hit me back saying "CEASEFIRE!!!!! You can't hit me now!"

[Tazio]

Because one side can't immediately declare a ceasefire. It's like me punching you in the face on the street and when you're about to hit me back saying "CEASEFIRE!!!!! You can't hit me now!"The reports that I've read is the loyalist's are the ones that have accelerated their offensive. No?

[Daniel]

The reports that I've read is the loyalist's are the ones that have accelerated their offensive. No?

Perhaps my example wasn't the best.

Basically a ceasefire requires the agreement of BOTH sides, not just one.

[Tazio]

Perhaps my example wasn't the best.

Basically a ceasefire requires the agreement of BOTH sides, not just one.
Like Duh dude ;)
Can you be more specific. Or is it a simple example of the Anti G^^^^fi forces have initiated a counter-offence. I.ve been too busy watching roumdball
and drinking Vodka to search out what is happing in THE FOG OF WAR

[Bob Riebe]

To what extent did you care about the Iraqis who supported Saddam Hussein before he was overthrown? Or is your apparent support for Gaddafi based on the fact that Obama is amongst those supporting action against him, which therefore renders Gaddafi worthy of sympathy in your eyes?
As I said in an earlier post, I did not care much about them then, nor do I care much about them now.

It is just how this thread makes vivid the hypocrisy among some politicians and posters on this board.

If Qaddafi goes- hopefully fine; if Qaddafi stays, except for Obama vacillating, after opening his mouth when he should have kept it shut, hopefully fine.
Of the problems in the area, Libya is only slightly bigger than a zit on a gnats buttocks.

Sympathy for Qaddafi?
If Obama was half the man he pretends to be, he could eliminate Qaddafi with near zero chance of serioius repercussions, but he is not and Qaddafi as I said, made his misery for the U.S. a long time ago, time to move on if the U.S. or even some allies are not going to actually serious about removing him.

Too bad the French have become squeamish about using their Foreign Legion, they could have ended this quickly.

-------------------------------

Obama is verbally flatulating on NPR right now, about how Libya is attacking its own citizens.
Well gee-golly Oby, in a civil war, that is usually the people you kill.
As I said once before, his vacuous rhetoric is making the U.S. into a literal version of the Emperors New Clothes.

[Bob Riebe]

Then why did we have to make up a complete bull**** story to take care of him and threaten other countries if they didn't support us they wouldn't get to share in the spoils of war. I watched all UN discussion and I never heard that reason advanced as our stated goal' only bull**** lies, and threats.
Yellow cake u235 jerk-offs sweting through their suites. Pathetic excuse,
Don't fear the truth it will set you free

Winning

As far as the UN goes the bad guys are always- WINNING!

[Tazio]

As far as the UN goes the bad guys are always- WINNING!

So in other words After pouring billions into a war
that is the one thing you can hang your hat on. And to think I was witin 3 numbers of going to Viet Nam to preseve the right for a blow hard pathetic redneck
liKe you to tell me why liberals are to blame for every thing wrong in yoUr world. You are Officially on my **** list so don't go out of your way to contact me as
I don't buy any of your BS anti intellectAL BULL****

[Bob Riebe]

So in other words After pouring billions into a war
that is the one thing you can hang your hat on. And to think I was witin 3 numbers of going to Viet Nam to preseve the right for a blow hard pathetic redneck
liKe you to tell me why liberals are to blame for every thing wrong in yoUr world. You are Officially on my **** list so don't go out of your way to contact me as
I don't buy any of your BS anti intellectAL BULL****

Alcatraz has a snit fit-- WINNING!

[Bob Riebe]

King on CNN, seems to be successfully ripping Pres. Obama a new butt-hole.

He has said that Pres. Obama has painted him-self into a corner with his bravado about Libya, while ignoring other countries in the region that are killing their own civilians without a civil war.

[veeten]

ah, but what has already been said, but nothing done, about Darfur. Only that it has nothing of value ( Fossil fuels, precious metals, or agricultural resources ) that can be plundered by 'interested parties'.

[Tazio]

Perfect strategy by the administration, by guaranteeing no American boots on the ground in Libya, who wants’ to bet me their sig that after this historic meeting in Paris it will be decided that the ground assault will be lead by elements fighting under the auspices of the French Expeditionary Forces.
GB will lead the coalition in Yemen. And the U.S. will simply turn the turrets on their battle group in Bahrain.
I just hope Sarkosy shows at least a little restraint in Libya because that that freakin' guy is ready to go off like a Neutron Bomb. :s mokin: winning :)

[Roamy]

Alcatraz - you sound like a disjointed Liberal. You guys have had majority rule for a while and no one seems to be impressed. I have problems with the right so that is why I support Trump.
But back to Libya - Gaddffi has already violated the cease fire - So what is the next step. You know the Libyian army won't fight once confronted. I am glad you didn't go to Nam - I would be very alarmed thinking that you were watching my back!

[Koz]

ah, but what has already been said, but nothing done, about Darfur. Only that it has nothing of value ( Fossil fuels, precious metals, or agricultural resources ) that can be plundered by 'interested parties'.

+1.

The saddest tragedy is that no one ever seems to recall this. Deaths above pretty much every conflict bar Rwanda (then again, nothing was done there either) combined, and no one lifted a finger.

I can't comprehend why the powers that be didn't intervene. This wasn't a so much a failure of the UN as it was of humanity.

[Mark]

A fighter jet has been shot down over rebel held territory in Libya.

[Hondo]

+1.

The saddest tragedy is that no one ever seems to recall this. Deaths above pretty much every conflict bar Rwanda (then again, nothing was done there either) combined, and no one lifted a finger.

I can't comprehend why the powers that be didn't intervene. This wasn't a so much a failure of the UN as it was of humanity.

Here's the correct answer that everyone will dance around and not give to you straight out. In most the cases y'all cite, the major players on both sides were black and as been stated, had no national treasure to make them a worthwhile proposition. So nobody cared and that's the way it is. If you feel all warm and fuzzy about those people, there is nothing keeping you from trying to raise money for them, or giving them all your money or even becoming a real live boots on the ground participant in whatever side you support.

Personally, I think Britain wanting a No Fly Zone at the same time they have decided they no longer have a need for an aircraft carrier rather amusing. I have to wonder exactly what kind of flight operations the United Arab League has in mind for themselves to fly.

I hope Obama stays out of the entire Libyan deal completely.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Personally, I think Britain wanting a No Fly Zone at the same time they have decided they no longer have a need for an aircraft carrier rather amusing. .

It's not that we think we don't need aircraft carriers, we just can't afford them! :p

[Hondo]

It's not that we think we don't need aircraft carriers, we just can't afford them! :p

Then you don't need to be pushing anybody else to use their carriers, do you? Find a country close by that will be willing to allow you to set up a few squadrons on their land, and you're there. But they don't want you on their land, that would piss off too many people. You could fly out of Spain, until somebody bombs a rail station.

Want to play No Fly Zone? Fine, but do it without US carriers. Putin might be willing to rent you one.

[Roamy]

Looks like not much is going to happen. Clinton said there are problems with russia and china so we have decided to let the rebels die as all of you have as well. Probably in the end it is good to show just what pukes we are dealing with in the world. And we keep buying their **** - amazing

[Roamy]

so now they say bombing will start after the hearing is Paris. The French have now flown over.

[Tazio]

This means war


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uM01v_vVnbg&feature=BF&playnext=1&list=QL&index=1

[Roamy]

Viva la France

[Tazio]

Viva la France

Merci beaucoup

[BDunnell]

Looks like not much is going to happen. Clinton said there are problems with russia and china so we have decided to let the rebels die as all of you have as well. Probably in the end it is good to show just what pukes we are dealing with in the world. And we keep buying their **** - amazing

Two questions. 1) Do you have absolutely no Chinese-made products in your house or place of work? 2) Do you believe in the free market?

[Mark in Oshawa]

Two questions. 1) Do you have absolutely no Chinese-made products in your house or place of work? 2) Do you believe in the free market?

He wont answer that first one. I don't think there is anyone in the world with any amount of household goods that likely doesn't have something from China. That's the problem, they have made their nation irreplaceable in the capitalist system without being a nation one would want to admire for their human rights or ethics at times.....

And Americans always believe in the free market until it bites them in the ass ...or at least some Americans do....

[Roamy]

He wont answer that first one. I don't think there is anyone in the world with any amount of household goods that likely doesn't have something from China. That's the problem, they have made their nation irreplaceable in the capitalist system without being a nation one would want to admire for their human rights or ethics at times.....

And Americans always believe in the free market until it bites them in the ass ...or at least some Americans do....


i try to avoid them. And no sh!t dude what do you expect I would believe. Oh yea lets have unfair trade in the name of capitalism and watch my ass go down the tube.
And you think you have trouble now - wait until the yuan is the reserve currency you will be eating moose sh!t for years to come

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Is this the first deployment for the Dassault Rafale? Do we know if they are flying from the south French coast or from the Charles de Gaulle carrier?

[markabilly]

so we going to pick a fight???
Do some "fly-bys"??

whatever
French Prez says going to go.......

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42164455/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/?gt1=43001

seems the rebels managed to shoot down one of their own planes and were celebrating the feat with jubliee......

sounds like fun. Quick sign up NOW to save them from themselves and be the first to be sent home in a box.........

whatever

[Roamy]

the question is will they remove quadaffi and how??

[Tazio]

the question is will they remove quadaffi and how??
Yes!

Their going to infilate 'em

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9hTg8RzzeM

[Eki]

The Libyans have flying tanks? It's just in the news that French fighter jets have destroyed four tanks? Or how do tanks break a no-fly rule?

[Hondo]

So the gallant French used the No Fly Zone to shoot down a Libyan trucK? Germany is all for it, but can't spare any forces right now.

[Tazio]

So the gallant French used the No Fly Zone to shoot down a Libyan trucK? Germany is all for it, but can't spare any forces right now.

The French Expeditionary Forces are not doing anything that Sarkosy warned MG in no uncertain terms that they said they would do. Only a matter of time before he is toast..

[Roamy]

bang

[Tazio]

bang

It's what is loosely referred to as a target of opportunity

[Tazio]

bang

French News agency has reported that Sarkosy’s is going to give French Muslims their berkas back with one simple request. Repatriate to the country you expatiated from, or fall in line with proper French Women between the age of 17 and 35, get a Brazilian wax, put on a thong and go have some casual sex,
or get gone!

[Tazio]

So the gallant French used the No Fly Zone to shoot down a Libyan trucK? Germany is all for it, but can't spare any forces right now.Just doing what the gallant coalition has instructed them to do. If you thought that this was going to be a fair fight then you really don't understand how to deal with your adversary

[Tazio]

So the gallant French used the No Fly Zone to shoot down a Libyan trucK? Germany is all for it, but can't spare any forces right now.
The gallant Americans have launched between 50 and 100 cruise missiles in the direction of Tripoli air defenses.
It looks like you backed the wrong horse!

[Hondo]

Horse ain't dead yet.

[markabilly]

you guys just need to stomp on over there and kick some butocks


Plenty of boxes for you to come home in.

besides like i said, nothing gets the blood pumping faster than getting shot at and shooting back.

[markabilly]

so where were the French in Iraq??

What do they have to gain, what money ???

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-libya-sarkozy-20110320,0,1429282.story




Of course, the French have themselves been criticized for their muted response to the democratic uprisings in the Arab world, particularly in Tunisia (http://www.latimes.com/topic/intl/tunisia-PLGEO00000081.topic), where France's cozy relations with the former government made it slow to support the demonstrations. In fact, on a visit to Tunis, the capital, three years earlier, Sarkozy had praised the nation's fight against terrorism and declared civil liberties to be expanding.
Having misplayed Tunisia, and taken a back seat in Egypt, Sarkozy was determined not to be relegated to the sidelines over Libya.
For at least two weeks, he has been agitating for some kind of military action to be taken against Kadafi and had turned to Britain as his ally in this quest, after irritating Merkel and other European leaders with what was seen as French grandstanding.
Ten days ago, European leaders and foreign ministers were reportedly furious after Sarkozy announced that France was recognizing the Libyan opposition, the first country to do so, just 24 hours before a summit to discuss the crisis.
At one point last week it was reported that Sarkozy was prepared to go it alone over Libya, with or without a United Nations (http://www.latimes.com/topic/crime-law-justice/international-law/united-nations-ORCUL000009.topic) resolution. But he apparently thought better of it.
After the Paris summit Saturday, Yves Leterme, the Belgian prime minister, made it clear who was running the Libyan offensive, telling journalists that France was "heading" the military operation.
For France, Libya is important, partly because it shares a border with four French (http://www.latimes.com/topic/intl/france-PLGEO000002.topic)-speaking countries strategic to France: Tunisia, Algeria, Chad and Niger. France also imports oil from Libya, and the French oil giant Total controls an important Libyan oil field.
For Sarkozy, though, Libya offers something else: an opportunity.
He'll be up for reelection in 2012, and the French appreciate nothing more than a president who puts them on the world stage and embodies what Charles de Gaulle (http://www.latimes.com/topic/politics/government/charles-de-gaulle-PEHST002171.topic) once famously called "a certain idea of France" as a nation of exceptional destiny.
"If all goes well," a diplomat told Le Parisien newspaper, "it will be a great victory and show he is the man to have in a crisis."

[Tazio]

so where were the French in Iraq??

What do they have to gain, what money ???

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-libya-sarkozy-20110320,0,1429282.story
For a little historical background I suggest you watch "The Battle of Agiers" It will give you a new appreciation of African Colonialism.



The Battle of Algiers reconstructs the events that occurred in the capital city of French Algeria between November 1954 and December 1960, during the Algerian War of Independence. The narrative begins with the organization of revolutionary cells in the Casbah. Then civil war between native Algerians and European settlers (pied-noirs) in which the sides exchange acts of increasing violence, leading to the introduction of French army paratroopers to hunt the National Liberation Front (FLN). The paratroopers are depicted as winning the battle by neutralizing the whole of the FLN leadership either through assassination or through capture. However, the film ends with a coda depicting demonstrations and rioting for independence by native Algerians, suggesting that although France won the Battle of Algiers, she lost the Algerian War.

The tactics of the FLN guerrilla insurgency and the French counter insurgency, and the uglier incidents of the war, are shown. Colonizer and colonized commit atrocities against civilians. The FLN commandeer the Casbah via summary execution of native Algerian criminals and other (considered) traitors, and applied terrorism to harass the civilian French colonials. The French colonialists resort to lynch mobs and indiscriminate, racist violence against the natives to hand. Paratroops routinely torture, intimidate, and murder in combating the FLN insurgents. Pontecorvo and Solinas have several protagonists, based on historical war figures. The story begins and ends from the perspective of Ali la Pointe (Brahim Hagiag), a petty criminal who is politically radicalized while in prison, and is then recruited to the FLN, by the (fictional) military commander El-hadi Jafar (Saadi Yacef, playing a character based on himself[2]

[Bob Riebe]

For a little historical background I suggest you watch "The Battle of Agiers" It will give you a new appreciation of African Colonialism.



The Battle of Algiers reconstructs the events that occurred in the capital city of French Algeria between November 1954 and December 1960, during the Algerian War of Independence. The narrative begins with the organization of revolutionary cells in the Casbah. Then civil war between native Algerians and European settlers (pied-noirs) in which the sides exchange acts of increasing violence, leading to the introduction of French army paratroopers to hunt the National Liberation Front (FLN). The paratroopers are depicted as winning the battle by neutralizing the whole of the FLN leadership either through assassination or through capture. However, the film ends with a coda depicting demonstrations and rioting for independence by native Algerians, suggesting that although France won the Battle of Algiers, she lost the Algerian War.

The tactics of the FLN guerrilla insurgency and the French counter insurgency, and the uglier incidents of the war, are shown. Colonizer and colonized commit atrocities against civilians. The FLN commandeer the Casbah via summary execution of native Algerian criminals and other (considered) traitors, and applied terrorism to harass the civilian French colonials. The French colonialists resort to lynch mobs and indiscriminate, racist violence against the natives to hand. Paratroops routinely torture, intimidate, and murder in combating the FLN insurgents. Pontecorvo and Solinas have several protagonists, based on historical war figures. The story begins and ends from the perspective of Ali la Pointe (Brahim Hagiag), a petty criminal who is politically radicalized while in prison, and is then recruited to the FLN, by the (fictional) military commander El-hadi Jafar (Saadi Yacef, playing a character based on himself[2]
Only alcatraz would use fiction to prove a point.
Brilliant!

[Eki]

so where were the French in Iraq??

What do they have to gain, what money ???

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-libya-sarkozy-20110320,0,1429282.story
You forget that there wasn't a civil war going on in Iraq. It wasn't an intervention, it was an invasion and an attack against a peaceful country. Furthermore, the intervention in Libya has been approved by the UN, the invasion in Iraq hadn't. Libya and Iraq are two different things, although not totally different.

[Tazio]

Only alcatraz would use fiction to prove a point.
Brilliant!http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/algeria.htm

:s ailor: Winning (you wanabe)

[markabilly]

You forget that there wasn't a civil war going on in Iraq. It wasn't an intervention, it was an invasion and an attack against a peaceful country. Furthermore, the intervention in Libya has been approved by the UN, the invasion in Iraq hadn't. Libya and Iraq are two different things, although not totally different.

HAHAAA!!

wrong on several counts, but since you are so gung ho on invading Libya, grab yourself a gun and get going!!!
Yahoooooo, be the first to be sent home to Finnland in a box. U B a big hero then

[markabilly]

talk is cheap, action dear.

seems not everyone hates Kaduffy


It was to be a human shield, a massive gathering of Moammar Kadafi (http://www.latimes.com/topic/politics/government/muammar-gaddafi-PEPLT000007572.topic)'s supporters at his Bab Azizia compound, and the Libyan leader was to give a late-night speech of defiance against the international forces arrayed against him.

They would stand by their beloved Brother Leader at the same compound destroyed by President Reagan's airstrikes in 1986. Even if the bombs came sailing down. Even if the entire place went up in flames.

"I'm here to support Moammar Kadafi and to oppose the threats of the West," said Ghazal Muftah, a 52-year-old grandmother in a camouflage army jacket and hijab, or head scarf, among about 400 or so gathered around the ruler's vast and well-protected residence. "If they want to hit Moammar Kadafi, they have to hit us. We are all Moammar Kadafi."


but talk is cheap



So what if they bomb?" he said. "We never get scared. If there was any fear, these people would never come here."

"We are here," said medical student Salah Mohammad, 24, "to be with the leader of our revolution, even if we die."

Cellphones began to ring. A hush fell over the crowd. People began to whisper to one another: Cruise missiles were being fired at Tripoli. Those sitting in a grassy area quickly got up and began heading for the exit.

More followed, until the human chain thinned to a few dozen people standing in the chill before the balcony where Kadafi was supposed to address them.

But the Brother Leader was nowhere to be seen. He would address Libyans later by telephone, from an undisclosed location.


http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-libya-kadafi-20110320,0,3713774.story?track=rss&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+latimes%2Fmostviewed+%28L.A.+ Times+-+Most+Viewed+Stories%29

[Eki]

HAHAAA!!

wrong on several counts, but since you are so gung ho on invading Libya, grab yourself a gun and get going!!!
Yahoooooo, be the first to be sent home to Finnland in a box. U B a big hero then
I'm not gung ho. Although my sympathy is with the rebels, I think it's an internal affair of Libya.

[markabilly]

I'm not gung ho. Although my sympathy is with the rebels, I think it's an internal affair of Libya.
talk is cheap, action dear

How late did you have to wait before you decided to go home when he failed to show, or were you one of the "early exiters"

[Eki]

talk is cheap, action dear

How late did you have to wait before you decided to go home when he failed to show, or were you one of the "early exiters"
What are you talking about?

[J4MIE]

So if the international community is so concerned about the average Libyan civilian and is trying to save them, why was/is nothing done about Mugabe???

[Eki]

So if the international community is so concerned about the average Libyan civilian and is trying to save them, why was/is nothing done about Mugabe???
Mugabe isn't a threat to Libyan civilians.

[Dave B]

No oil in Zimbabwe? </cynic>

[Eki]

At least no revolution or civil war going on in Zimbawe.

[Tazio]

I have been enlightened. I believe it is simply more evidence that truth is stranger than fiction. I don't know all of the details, however I was talking to my brother well before, the invasion, and I said jokingly that we may have to kill Sarkosy after this deal is done because of what a fascist he is proving to be. Many people remember that he decided to ban Berkas in public in France. I don't know all the dynamics but it sounds a little over the top in a democratic society. Apparently he approached the Prime Minister of Germany, and suggested to her that the Germans should also get in on this Rodeo. When she refused It has been revealed that he was ready to go it alone. Personally if that is the way a leader of a modern society feels it is more than a little amazing to me. Maybe (because his country has such a large population of Muslims) this may be part of his motivation. I have a contingency plan. I thought I pasted it but for some strange reason it disappeared. It is not outside the realm of possibility that I only dreamed it. The scenario goes something like this:
Offer all French Muslim women their Berkas back and give them a choice. Take your Berka and get back to the country I just liberated for you. Or, get a Brazilian Wax, put on a thong and have casual sex like proper French women do :)

BTW What kind of a French name is Sarkosy?

[Rollo]

Breaking news:

http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu228/Gustav55/rV8z0.jpg

In other news this week, France has announced that it's national symbol will no longer be the Gallic Rooster but the "Cheese-Eating Surrender Monkey" :D

[Tazio]

What's the over under line on how much longer Moammar Kadafi will last until his reign of terror is destroyed.
I give him 34 hrs as of 8:20 PDT.

What sayeth thee.

The image below is of the British expeditionary force surrendering to combined French and Colonial Forces Near Yorktown.

Lord Howe was too humiliated (I mean ill) to have the stones to hand his sword over to General Washington.
Instead he hands it off to a subordinate with instructions to present it to General Rochambeau :bigcry:


http://www.solarnavigator.net/history/explorers_history/american_war_of_independence_york_town_surrender_g eneral_cornwallis.jpg


:s ailor: Winning

[Tazio]

What's the over under line on how much longer Moammar Kadafi will last until his reign of terror is destroyed.
I give him 34 hrs as of 8:20 PDT.

What sayeth thee.

The image below is of the British expeditionary force surrendering to combined French and Colonial Forces Near Yorktown.

Lord Howe was too humiliated (I mean ill) to have the stones to hand his sword over to General Washington.
Instead he hands it off to a subordinate with instructions to present it to General Rochambeau :bigcry:


http://www.solarnavigator.net/history/explorers_history/american_war_of_independence_york_town_surrender_g eneral_cornwallis.jpg


:s ailor: Adonis DNA ;)

[Tazio]

;)
:s ailor:Tigerblood ;)

[Tazio]

What's the over under line on how much longer Moammar Kadafi will last until his reign of terror is destroyed.
I give him 34 hrs as of 8:20 PDT.

What sayeth thee.



http://www.solarnavigator.net/history/explorers_history/american_war_of_independence_york_town_surrender_g eneral_cornwallis.jpg


:s ailor: Winning.

[Tazio]

.
:bigcry:
.

[Bob Riebe]

I have been enlightened. I believe it is simply more evidence that truth is stranger than fiction. I don't know all of the details, however I was talking to my brother well before, the invasion, and I said jokingly that we may have to kill Sarkosy after this deal is done because of what a fascist he is proving to be. Many people remember that he decided to ban Berkas in public in France. I don't know all the dynamics but it sounds a little over the top in a democratic society. Apparently he approached the Prime Minister of Germany, and suggested to her that the Germans should also get in on this Rodeo. When she refused It has been revealed that he was ready to go it alone. Personally if that is the way a leader of a modern society feels it is more than a little amazing to me. Maybe (because his country has such a large population of Muslims) this may be part of his motivation. I have a contingency plan. I thought I pasted it but for some strange reason it disappeared. It is not outside the realm of possibility that I only dreamed it. The scenario goes something like this:
Offer all French Muslim women their Berkas back and give them a choice. Take your Berka and get back to the country I just liberated for you. Or, get a Brazilian Wax, put on a thong and have casual sex like proper French women do :)

BTW What kind of a French name is Sarkosy?
Welcome back Glauistien.

[Bob Riebe]

You forget that there wasn't a civil war going on in Iraq. It wasn't an intervention, it was an invasion and an attack against a peaceful country. Furthermore, the intervention in Libya has been approved by the UN, the invasion in Iraq hadn't. Libya and Iraq are two different things, although not totally different.

Who or what gives the U.N. authority in any countries internal affairs

[Tazio]

What's the over under line on how much longer Moammar Kadafi will last until his reign of terror is destroyed.
I give him 34 hrs as of 8:20 PDT.

What sayeth thee.

The image below is of the British expeditionary force surrendering to combined French and Colonial Forces Near Yorktown.

My mistake it was thre honerable Lord Cornwallis :bigcry: http://www.solarnavigator.net/history/explorers_history/american_war_of_independence_york_town_surrender_g eneral_cornwallis.jpg :dozey:


:s ailor: Winning :dozey:

[Bob Riebe]

At least no revolution or civil war going on in Zimbawe.He killed some to set an example.