Even by Juarez standards, a deadly 72 hours

[Bob Riebe]

Sure is a good thing Obama only gives a damn about appeasing the citizens of muslim states.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/americas/02/20/mexico.violence/index.html?eref=mrss_igoogle_cnn

If he treated Latinos the way he treated Egyptian leaders, he would lose all those Latino votes.

[Roamy]

Bob - He is gonna loose the Latino vote and bigtime = The Latinos that are here are turning republican by the droves. But never forget they are sending the drugs to the US - 35 thousand dead over our drug habit. This world is a Cesspool any way you look at it

[ShiftingGears]

What does Obama have to do with this?

[Roamy]

What does Obama have to do with this?

Dude are you some kind of Obama Lover. The Cesspool is rising and this guy is leaking out of all orifices - What aren't you getting!!!

[ShiftingGears]

Dude are you some kind of Obama Lover. The Cesspool is rising and this guy is leaking out of all orifices - What aren't you getting!!!

I don't know if you're trying to ask questions with incorrect punctuation or being sarcastic, but I don't see why some want to blame the US president for it. And that includes Bush, does that make me a fan of him as well?

[Roamy]

Well Squirrel:

Lets just start on a few items:
35K Mexicans dead over our appetite for drugs
Bankrupt: every American owes 120K
Henious Crimes: Meth driven - No plan in place
No acceptable Medical plan because all of our Government are attorneys and they won't deal with the tort laws
Drugs are now a total Sub- Economy and our Gov knows it. I can blow the sh!t out of MaHaught sitting in a tent in No Pakistan and I can't see a Mexican crossing
the Rio Grande.
We can't seal our borders!
The world lets 9 idiots control the price of oil and everytime some one farts loudly they raise the price
We buy friends 1.3 billion annually to Egypt and we are broke
Look at the foreign aid - who is matching us and we are broke.

Dude who is our leader - Who do you want me to blame????
And if you need punctuation to understand this then you need a Windowectomy (they put a pane of glass in you stomach so you can see out -cuz your head is up your ass)

[Bob Riebe]

What does Obama have to do with this?
What did Obama have to do with Egypt, yet his opinions were on the daily news, daily.

[BDunnell]

Those of us who used to quite enjoy this section of the forum might be forgiven for getting increasingly fed up with the contributions of some of our North American 'friends', whose opinions on any given subject could virtually be predicted before they write them.

[Mark]

+1

[ArrowsFA1]

+2

It's not so much the contributions themselves, rather than the way they are imposed. I think most of us can accept there are many different views among us all, and most are willing to have reasonable discussions about those views.

[BDunnell]

+2

It's not so much the contributions themselves, rather than the way they are imposed. I think most of us can accept there are many different views among us all, and most are willing to have reasonable discussions about those views.

Be gone with your obtuse rhetoric, sir!

[ArrowsFA1]

Be gone with your obtuse rhetoric, sir!
I'll get my coat :p

[markabilly]

Those of us who used to quite enjoy this section of the forum might be forgiven for getting increasingly fed up with the contributions of some of our European 'friends', whose opinions on any given subject could virtually be predicted before they write them, esp as delivered with the same old tired bombast of surrender and "peace in our time" that gave Hitler the freedom to kill millions right in the heart of europe, then permitted the berlin wall to go on for decades...... right in the heart of Europe, a Europe whose leaders are now ascribing to theories that these same posters would label as those of red neck, paranoid morons of the american variety

[markabilly]

Those of us who used to quite enjoy this section of the forum might be forgiven for getting increasingly fed up with the contributions of some of our North American 'friends', whose opinions on any given subject could virtually be predicted before they write them.



Those of us who used to quite enjoy this section of the forum might be forgiven for getting increasingly fed up with the contributions of some of our European 'friends', whose opinions on any given subject could virtually be predicted before they write them, esp as delivered with the same old tired bombast of surrender and "peace in our time" that gave Hitler the freedom to kill millions right in the heart of europe, then permitted the berlin wall to go on for decades...... right in the heart of Europe, a Europe whose leaders are now ascribing to theories that these same posters would label as those of red neck, paranoid morons of the american variety

[BDunnell]

Those of us who used to quite enjoy this section of the forum might be forgiven for getting increasingly fed up with the contributions of some of our European 'friends', whose opinions on any given subject could virtually be predicted before they write them, esp as delivered with the same old tired bombast of surrender and "peace in our time" that gave Hitler the freedom to kill millions right in the heart of europe, then permitted the berlin wall to go on for decades...... right in the heart of Europe, a Europe whose leaders are now ascribing to theories that these same posters would label as those of red neck, paranoid morons of the american variety

Oh, I see what you've done there. Very clever and satirical.

[Mark]

I invoke Godwins law.

[BDunnell]

I invoke Godwins law.

You'd have thought that the notion that all of us Europeans are deemed by right-wing Americans to be allowing the rise of a new Nazism would make us feel a bit bad, wouldn't you? I wonder why it doesn't...

[markabilly]

You'd have thought that the notion that all of us Europeans are deemed by right-wing Americans to be allowing the rise of a new Nazism would make us feel a bit bad, wouldn't you? I wonder why it doesn't...

glad to hear that it does not bother you at all.
How old were you when the guards were still killing people for trying to leave East Germany??

Not being a "right-wing american", indeed far from it, i have no clue what sterotype you are invoking.

[BDunnell]

glad to hear that it does not bother you at all.

Were such comparisons ever made by individuals I respect, it would bother me. But seeing as it's the likes of you and your ilk offering these viewpoints, they are only fit to be dismissed.

[markabilly]

I invoke Godwins law.

a few years ago, I met Mike Godwin. An interesting person, whose statement has been twisted out of its context.

He beleives the casual usage of what you refer to, as being a form of trivializing the horror of the concentration camps, such that it loses meaning. Beyond that, he also beleives that the threat of the same racism is increased by this same trivialization. A valid point, as one can easily see by the careless dismissal of such threats by posters on this board.

[markabilly]

Were such comparisons ever made by individuals I respect, it would bother me. But seeing as it's the likes of you and your ilk offering these viewpoints, they are only fit to be dismissed.

No better example of "godwin's law"....



How old were you when the guards were still killing people for trying to leave East Germany??

[BDunnell]

a few years ago, I met Mike Godwin. An interesting person, whose statement has been twisted out of its context.

He beleives the casual usage of what you refer to, as being a form of trivializing the horror of the concentration camps, such that it loses meaning.

And your usage of such comparisons is a precise example.

[GridGirl]

No better example of "godwin's law"....



How old were you when the guards were still killing people for trying to leave East Germany??



Why did you feel the need to ask a quite frankly stupid question twice? Firstly it is unnecessary to debate and secondly you know as well as I do (and I don't know BDunnell's age) that he wasn't born then anyway. It's almost as daft as asking where were you when the ice age killed the dinosaurs?

Edit: I looked up BDunnell's age in in profile which again makes me wonder what on earth are you trying to say or prove by asking such stupid questions?

[markabilly]

Means he was born after 1989, making him about 21?????

When I was 20, something that happenned 22 years ago, seemed to be "ice age", now something that happened 22 years ago, is just the blink of an eye.

People like him and the rest, living in glass houses, ought not be throwing rocks


Got to love the hypocrisy, people bleeding to death, laying in the barbed wire, right in the heart of europe, in the heart of berlin, shot up while trying to escape, Talk about daft and stupid

[BDunnell]

Why did you feel the need to ask a quite frankly stupid question twice? Firstly it is unnecessary to debate and secondly you know as well as I do (and I don't know BDunnell's age) that he wasn't born then anyway.

Er... actually, I was. The last victim of the Berlin Wall was Chris Gueffroy, killed in 1989.

[BDunnell]

Got to love the hypocrisy, people bleeding to death, laying in the barbed wire, right in the heart of europe, in the heart of berlin, shot up while trying to escape, Talk about daft and stupid

Which, in your typically considered opinion, has to do with what, exactly?

[GridGirl]

I don't believe it's a case of people in glass houses. Incidentally, where were you and what were you doing at that time?

[GridGirl]

OK you got me on the Berlin wall but I still can't quantify what you personally should have been doing at that time.

[BDunnell]

OK you got me on the Berlin wall but I still can't quantify what you personally should have been doing at that time.

Who, me?

[Mark]

Personally in 1989 I was 11 years old, and thinking about what life will be like in the 'big' school..

[GridGirl]

Yes, seeing as Markabilly seems to be repeatedly asking where you were during the time he's describing. I still don't understand what his point is and why you inparticular should have had any direct effect on the situation.

[BDunnell]

Yes, seeing as Markabilly seems to be repeatedly asking where you were during the time he's describing. I still don't understand what his point is and why you inparticular should have had any direct effect on the situation.

Let's take a wild guess. His view is that the sole true guardians of peace and freedom are American governments of a certain colour. Therefore, in his eyes, all other regimes are inferior, and their supporters tantamount to pre-World War Two appeasers. He probably also thinks that the Berlin Wall came down as a result solely of US efforts, and particularly Reagan saying 'Mr Gorbachev, tear down this wall!' It is all nonsense.

[markabilly]

Grid girl, Working hard towards retirement and nursing an old war wound, and wondering how much longer such murderous brutality that started in 1914 and continued in various forms right up until 1989, when Ronald (of all people) finally grew enough gonads to demand the wall be torn down.

That is assuming you do not count southeast europe (bosnia), where the ethnic purification got up to rolling along at high speed in the 1990's.

yes, you folks from europe love to throw rocks from high pedestals of moral superiority at the right winger (of which I am not a real member) red neck, paranoid morons, while ignoring your own home territory, whose outright murderous, savage, cold blooded inhumanity overpowers and dominates by comparsion anything that has happenned in the USA during this same time period

[markabilly]

up until 1995 or so, how many were cleaned in Bosnia?? some 200,000 people, probably more, to say nothing of the mass rapes and oppression, the displacement of a couple of million.

[BDunnell]

Grid girl, Working hard towards retirement and nursing an old war wound, and wondering how much longer such murderous brutality that started in 1914 and continued in various forms right up until 1989, when Ronald (of all people) finally grew enough gonads to demand the wall be torn down.

Historically inaccurate in every respect. Reagan's speech in Berlin was not in 1989, but 1987. If you recall, he left office in 1988. And the notion that his speech was in any sense the key event in those that led up to the fall of the Wall is fanciful in the extreme.

[BDunnell]

up until 1995 or so, how many were cleaned in Bosnia?? some 200,000 people, probably more, to say nothing of the mass rapes and oppression, the displacement of a couple of million.

Cleansed, not cleaned.

[markabilly]

BTW I am not saying this country has not seen its share of problems during the same time period. When I was growing up, separate facilities for blacks was mandatory ( Never can recall seeing a black person eat food until I was about 15 years old), race riots were occurring and on and on....meanwhile 16 million die on european soil in wwI; ww2 was maybe 40 million, russia was killing and starving 20 million plus, the post ww2 deaths, including bosnia and others in easter europe, how many, a million or two????


Like I said, don't be throwing rocks, just cause europe is having ten or so years of peace that if history is any guide, will not last for long.

[ArrowsFA1]

...right up until 1989, when Ronald (of all people) finally grew enough gonads to demand the wall be torn down..
Totally irrelevant to the topic really but as you brought it up the claim it is quite an interesting one.


The speech Mr. Reagan delivered is now remembered as one of the highlights of his presidency. The video images of that speech have been played and replayed. On June 12, 1987, Mr. Reagan, standing in front of the Brandenburg Gate and the Berlin Wall, issued his famous exhortation to Mikhail Gorbachev: “Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall.”

For many American conservatives, the Berlin Wall speech has taken on iconic status. This was Mr. Reagan’s ultimate challenge to the Soviet Union — and, so they believe, Mikhail Gorbachev simply capitulated when, in November 1989, he failed to respond with force as Germans suddenly began tearing down the wall.

In a 1995 book about the end of the cold war, “Germany United and Europe Transformed,” two former officials of the first Bush administration, Condoleezza Rice and Philip Zelikow, minimized the significance of the Berlin Wall address and its role in the events leading up to the end of the cold war. They argued that after the speech was given there was no serious, practical follow-up. No one pursued any policy initiative with respect to the Berlin Wall. “American diplomats did not consider the matter part of the real policy agenda,” they wrote.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/10/opinion/10mann.html?_r=1&pagewanted=print

[BDunnell]

BTW I am not saying this country has not seen its share of problems during the same time period. When I was growing up, separate facilities for blacks was mandatory ( Never can recall seeing a black person eat food until I was about 15 years old), race riots were occurring and on and on....meanwhile 16 million die on european soil in wwI; ww2 was maybe 40 million, russia was killing and starving 20 million plus, the post ww2 deaths, including bosnia and others in easter europe, how many, a million or two????


Like I said, don't be throwing rocks, just cause europe is having ten or so years of peace that if history is any guide, will not last for long.

markabilly, I would think that the response to your garbled rants about Europe by people who actually live here would by now have made you realise, if only to a small degree, that you would do well to think differently.

[markabilly]

Totally irrelevant to the topic really but as you brought it up the claim it is quite an interesting one.




http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/10/opinion/10mann.html?_r=1&pagewanted=print

true enough. the reality was that russia could no longer compete, and was facing internal turmoil that was begining a slow eruption
without which, it might still be there today.


meanwhile, NOBODY else was making any public stands as noteworthy

[BDunnell]

meanwhile, NOBODY else was making any public stands as noteworthy

Nobody? Literally nobody? Of course not.

[ArrowsFA1]

Nobody? Literally nobody? Of course not.
Margaret Thatcher for one was (less publicly) vocal. Calling on Gobachev not to let the wall fall, she said told him (Sept 1989) ""We do not want a united Germany. This would lead to a change to postwar borders and we cannot allow that because such a development would undermine the stability of the whole international situation and could endanger our security." (link (http://www.hindu.com/2009/09/15/stories/2009091553501100.htm))

[BDunnell]

Margaret Thatcher for one was (less publicly) vocal. Calling on Gobachev not to let the wall fall, she said told him (Sept 1989) ""We do not want a united Germany. This would lead to a change to postwar borders and we cannot allow that because such a development would undermine the stability of the whole international situation and could endanger our security." (link (http://www.hindu.com/2009/09/15/stories/2009091553501100.htm))

On the occasion of the 10th anniversary, John Sergeant was on Have I Got News for You and was asked which of the major Western leaders of 1989 had not been invited to the celebrations. "Margaret Thatcher", he replied, "because I think if she had been there, she might have tried to rebuild it. But not in Berlin — somewhere further West. Like Calais."

[Retro Formula 1]

Wow, what a thread :rolleyes:

[Mark]

Yes, it's a shame we can't talk seriously about the issues without people trolling that their country / political ideals are the best. This forum would be a lot more interesting if every thread of world issues wasn't dragged down the same path.

[ArrowsFA1]

It's obviously Obama's fault (http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=it's+obama's+fault&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb:IE-SearchBox&ie=&oe=&redir_esc=&ei=cX9iTbzaE5WH4gbHq_GSCg). Every thing else seems to be :p

[Retro Formula 1]

Well, we have threads on Israel, God and Guns. A perfect Storm :D

Mind you, we also have the self appointed forum Police looking down their noses at anyone without their particular moderate views or, God forbid, make a spelling or gramatical error.

It seems that liatening to exploring and understanding other members views and beliefs is a lost art on this forum. We are all dogmatic at times but possibly, perhaps, maybe it might be more worthwhile discussing and debating subject matter rather than engaging in these p*ssing contests.

[BDunnell]

Mind you, we also have the self appointed forum Police looking down their noses at anyone without their particular moderate views or, God forbid, make a spelling or gramatical error.

It seems that liatening to exploring and understanding other members views and beliefs is a lost art on this forum. We are all dogmatic at times but possibly, perhaps, maybe it might be more worthwhile discussing and debating subject matter rather than engaging in these p*ssing contests.

I would have thought that moderate views are the required antidote to dogma emanating either from the far right or the far left.

[Retro Formula 1]

I would have thought that moderate views are the required antidote to dogma emanating either from the far right or the far left.

I think you may want to read the sentence as a whole rather than cherry picking out of context ;)

But then again, perhaps you don't :D

[Daniel]

Yes, seeing as Markabilly seems to be repeatedly asking where you were during the time he's describing. I still don't understand what his point is and why you inparticular should have had any direct effect on the situation.

You must be new to this. They ask silly questions so you won't answer because your answer has nothing to do with the issue at hand and they can claim victory by default.....

[BDunnell]

I think you may want to read the sentence as a whole rather than cherry picking out of context ;)

But then again, perhaps you don't :D

Oh, I did read the rest, and see no reason to change my ways to suit some.

[BDunnell]

And it is quite interesting that this thread seems to attract more interest than that covering the Middle Eastern revolutions, on which there is, at least in part, a genuine discussion. Personally, I don't care for a moment about whatever the original subject of this thread is, even without all that's followed on it.

[markabilly]

Yes, it's a shame we can't talk seriously about the issues without people trolling that their country / political ideals are the best. This forum would be a lot more interesting if every thread of world issues wasn't dragged down the same path.
Sure would be. Perhaps you should talk to your buddies like bdunnel who is always on the offensive, or eki and all the rest and make them stop!!!!!!