Reality check at Honda

[ioan]

Or maybe Button is trying to hide their real performance?

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=30742

[Tazio]

What he says in that article is consistent with what RB said! (It’s posted on another thread)
Apparently they both think the car is a dog at this point of the season!

[Dave B]

It's either not a good car, or they've been bluffing and sandbagging.

Sadly I think it's the former.

[tsarcasm]

A team must have crappy drivers if they both are whining before even the first race. Lose the 'Ralf'-spirit Butt-on.

[N. Jones]

It looks to be a repeat of last season and I think, as Renault and Alonso has shown, is that you need to score consistently early in the season or else you have no chance to catch up to anyone...

[ArrowsFA1]

A team must have crappy drivers if they both are whining before even the first race. Lose the 'Ralf'-spirit Butt-on.
Similar comments are coming from Red Bull. Both teams had high hopes for 2007 - Honda after their break through win, and Red Bull with the signing of Adrian Newey - but it seems that the early signs for both aren't great :dozey:

Maybe Honda will be able to challenge for wins as the season goes on, but that's not enough for a championship challenge. 2008 maybe :crazy:

[jens]

Maybe Honda will be able to challenge for wins as the season goes on, but that's not enough for a championship challenge. 2008 maybe :crazy:

In Honda's case there is always a next year - now we are talking about 2008 already. Then 2009, etc. :p :

[Ian McC]

A team must have crappy drivers if they both are whining before even the first race. Lose the 'Ralf'-spirit Butt-on.

What's the point of saying it's a great car when it isn't :rolleyes:

[tsarcasm]

that is true, Honda usual MO is "We're hoping for results..."

[Schnell]

3 greens on new boots...Nice one Ant! Where'd you learn that then?

[Ian McC]

Well practice suggests that Button was being optimistic! Outperformed by Super Aguri!!

[jens]

Actually one more thought from me that I have been wondering about. This belongs to the "what if" category.

What if... Honda had prefered Jordan instead of BAR after 2002? Would they have had more success? I mean during that time, when Jordan still had the funds and had the same engine as BAR, the "yellows" always looked like a more serious racing team and they had already tasted some success with four Grand Prix wins. When I heard the news in 2002 that Honda is going to concentrate on BAR, then I really couldn't understand the decision. BAR was usually making words, but Jordan usually built good chassises. Yeah, especially in the last years they tended to be unreliable or whatever, but I remember a discussion before 2002 in a kind of Jordan topic, where there were thoughts whether Jordan is going to be good that season or not. And one asked a rhetorical question: "Has Jordan ever built a bad racing car?" And the answer is practically no! From 1994 to 2002 Jordan always finished in Top6 in the WCC! They had sometimes their slight downs (like first half of 1998), but they were consistently more or less in the next group after championship contenders. After that they of course lost most of their fund sources and there wasn't much to do afterwards...

Sadly, that Honda's decision marked the start of Jordan's decisive downfall and also not a bright future for Honda itself.

[ioan]

Actually one more thought from me that I have been wondering about. This belongs to the "what if" category.

What if... Honda had prefered Jordan instead of BAR after 2002? Would they have had more success? I mean during that time, when Jordan still had the funds and had the same engine as BAR, the "yellows" always looked like a more serious racing team and they had already tasted some success with four Grand Prix wins. When I heard the news in 2002 that Honda is going to concentrate on BAR, then I really couldn't understand the decision. BAR was usually making words, but Jordan usually built good chassises. Yeah, especially in the last years they tended to be unreliable or whatever, but I remember a discussion before 2002 in a kind of Jordan topic, where there were thoughts whether Jordan is going to be good that season or not. And one asked a rhetorical question: "Has Jordan ever built a bad racing car?" And the answer is practically no! From 1994 to 2002 Jordan always finished in Top6 in the WCC! They had sometimes their slight downs (like first half of 1998), but they were consistently more or less in the next group after championship contenders. After that they of course lost most of their fund sources and there wasn't much to do afterwards...

Sadly, that Honda's decision marked the start of Jordan's decisive downfall and also not a bright future for Honda itself.

Good point, I've never thought about this but Honda could have had more chance with Jordan. Not that they were that bad in 2004, but that was down to Dave Richards and not to Nick Fry.

[Valve Bounce]

Wouldn't you guys laugh if the ant kicked bunsen's ass. :)

[Whyzars]

I would say that Honda is showing concern for the environment by focusing on winning the fuel economy prize.

[ClarkFan]

Guess the RA106 was/is a pretty good car after all...... :s

ClarkFan

[jjanicke]

Wouldn't you guys laugh if the ant kicked bunsen's ass. :)

It sure would be ironic. The old chassis beating the new one.

[tinchote]

There you have it. Both Super Aguris ahead of both Hondas; and to make it worse, both Toyotas are ahead of the 4 Hondas: someone back in Japan will not be very happy ;) :D

[truefan72]

if I were them, I would go back to the old chasis

[tintop]

the dark mood will only be interrupted by the glint of ceremonial scabberds

[tintop]

Wouldn't you guys laugh if the ant kicked bunsen's ass. :)

Only to be bested by Sato :eek:

[Viv]

Outqualified by Super Aguris!! :eek: Wonder what they are thinking in the Honda garage at the moment

[wmcot]

Outqualified by Super Aguris!! :eek: Wonder what they are thinking in the Honda garage at the moment

Maybe Honda will join in the protest against Super Aguri!!! :)

[jens]

if I were them, I would go back to the old chasis

I don't think Super Aguri is entirely using the "old chassis" - it was a basement for this year's car and they have developed it forward. But what is amazing - Aguri has developed that car forward more rapidly than Honda itself! More likely Honda should use current SA's chassis as they probably have the same engine, so there wouldn't be too much problem or would?

I remember similar stuff was with Jaguar in early 2002 as well, when they said that their last year's car was better than the new one. And the results were seen - Jaguar was fighting with Minardi in early races. But they didn't go back to use their old chassis.

But yeah - I feel really sorry for Bunsen. He actually has already written his title hopes off and did it yesterday...

[Valve Bounce]

Super Aguri have one of te best if not the best test driver in their team. Read it and weep, bunsen, because the ant is going to kick your ass!!

[AJP]

I presume there was a covert operation conducted by the Super Aguri team...

They snuck in one night when all the cars where getting painted and swapped em'

sneaky little dudes...but it payed off.. ;)

The main Honda team will be pretty p#$sed off tonight....

[Valve Bounce]

I don't think Team Honda have a test driver who can help with R&D the way ant did, nor help with feedback to set the car up for races. If you read bunsen's comments after quals in Pitpass, you'll note that he had great problems with his tyres, whereas the Super Aguri drivers were ecstatic.
Bunsen will have a lean year, and I think that's what he himself is predicting.

[ClarkFan]

I don't think Super Aguri is entirely using the "old chassis" - it was a basement for this year's car and they have developed it forward. But what is amazing - Aguri has developed that car forward more rapidly than Honda itself! More likely Honda should use current SA's chassis as they probably have the same engine, so there wouldn't be too much problem or would?

I remember similar stuff was with Jaguar in early 2002 as well, when they said that their last year's car was better than the new one. And the results were seen - Jaguar was fighting with Minardi in early races. But they didn't go back to use their old chassis.

But yeah - I feel really sorry for Bunsen. He actually has already written his title hopes off and did it yesterday...

I think the tale of development is even odder than you state. The RA107 is mainly a development of a UK-based team that is the current evolution of BAR. The SA07 is based on the BAR-designed RA106, but I believe that the update work is mainly from the Honda R&D group in Tochigi - the same group that was behind a number of F1 study cars in the 1990's. (Valve, I believe you have the sources to correct me on this if I am wrong.)

So which of the Honda F1 cars is "more Honda?" It's enough to make my poor head spin. :crazy:

ClarkFan

[Sleeper]

Honda are beginning to make a rather bad habit out of starting the season with an unsorted car, only its worse this year because they gave the fully developed 06 car to the B team (and it was the 2nd or 3rd fastest car in F1 by Brazil last year). Things will change, SA arent going to have that much development done on the car and there's not a lot of potential left in it anyway. I expect Honda will sort the car out to about the same level that they finished last season, but will probably be at least mid-season by then.

[WSRfan82]

its buttons driving thats the problem not the car lets be honest he is crap

[zoostation]

its buttons driving thats the problem not the car lets be honest he is crap

errrr ?

so rubens is mega crap?

lol

[baker]

its buttons driving thats the problem not the car lets be honest he is crap

Now there's a well thought out and intelligently presented observation. :rolleyes: Thanks for the insight.

[Easy Drifter]

Honda's problem is simple. They are carrying the weight of the world on the car.

[davidalbert]

It seems to me that the Japanese motor company's think that if you throw truck loads of money at a problem you will solve the issue. (i.e. Ralf at 19 mil at toyota). These company's are relatively new to f1, soon enough they will learn that it is the quality of the people that you employ that solve the problems, and yes money is important but you have to spend it wisely, alah Renault, small work force, low budget, multiple titles.

[Malbec]

It seems to me that the Japanese motor company's think that if you throw truck loads of money at a problem you will solve the issue. (i.e. Ralf at 19 mil at toyota). These company's are relatively new to f1, soon enough they will learn that it is the quality of the people that you employ that solve the problems, and yes money is important but you have to spend it wisely, alah Renault, small work force, low budget, multiple titles.

I find it odd that people nonchalantly talk about 'the Japanese way' or 'Japanese companies' when Honda and Toyota have such a markedly different approach to things.

People don't talk about 'the English way' when they compare two teams that differ as much as McLaren and Williams do....

[davidalbert]

Toyota and honda as i said are new to f1 and i did not mean to offend by the use of "japanese company's". The budgets are set by the heads of company's this is what i was refering too and all the money in the world won't make a car go fast it has to be spent wisely.
As for the English way, i.e. Williams and Mclaren, they have been in f1 for many decades and i don't believe that they spend as wastefully.

[Malbec]

Thats not quite what I meant.

Honda and Toyota have such different cultures and differing ways of operating that you can't lump them together. The philosophy from top down is utterly different. Just saying that they must be similar because they are Japanese is totally inaccurate.

My point about Williams and McLaren is that traditionally Williams have revolved around one or two key personnel, while McLaren employs a far broader management philosophy which designs the car by committee. You wouldn't want to lump their utterly different ways of doing things as 'the English way' either.

Honda btw aren't new to F1, they were in it before Williams existed for instance, and together with Mugen-Honda have been involved in F1 somehow for over 20 years.

[ykiki]

Toyota and honda as i said are new to f1 and i did not mean to offend by the use of "japanese company's". The budgets are set by the heads of company's this is what i was refering too and all the money in the world won't make a car go fast it has to be spent wisely.
As for the English way, i.e. Williams and Mclaren, they have been in f1 for many decades and i don't believe that they spend as wastefully.

What I find the most intriguing - in the world of Lean Manufacturing, it is Toyota that is most often shown as the model of efficiency. How do you set up an assembly cell? Look to Toyota. Need to solve a problem? Look to Toyota. What is the cardinal sin of Lean Manufacturing? Throwing boatloads of money at it. Somehow the Toyota racing team in Germany has not learned the lessons of it's big brother's factory in Japan. Those familiar with Lean concepts know exactly what I'm speaking of (and are probably chuckling at the dichotomy of it all).

[AJP]

Toyota and honda as i said are new to f1 and i did not mean to offend by the use of "japanese company's".

Personally, I would not say that Toyota and Honda are new to F1.
Both companies have massive experince in F1. I agree that they should be spending their money more wisely, but they are not..

Both companies have tremendous pedigree in motorsport, especially Toyota.
It's time for heads to roll and to get their game in action. It's a bit of a joke that these two manufacturers are not fighting for race wins.

[jens]

Actually I have one interesting question to you and that's a wider question than just about Honda.

Do you believe that once comes an era - maybe as long as in 10 or 20 years' time - when Japanese or even Asian (Hyundai has thought about joining F1) manufacturers manage to fight for top spots?

[Hawkmoon]

its buttons driving thats the problem not the car lets be honest he is crap


Now there's a well thought out and intelligently presented observation. :rolleyes: Thanks for the insight.

Well, Button's performance today was bloody awful. He finished 4 places and 40+ seconds behind Barrichello in 15th (out of 17 finishers) despite starting 2 places ahead of him and his fastest lap was 3 tenths down on Ruben's best and a whopping 3.1 seconds down on Raikkonen's race best.

Couple this with the way Rubens left him standing after he passed him and I believe that the Boy Button has to take his fair share of the blame for Honda's horrible start to the season.

[BeansBeansBeans]

Well, Button's performance today was bloody awful. He finished 4 places and 40+ seconds behind Barrichello in 15th (out of 17 finishers) despite starting 2 places ahead of him and his fastest lap was 3 tenths down on Ruben's best and a whopping 3.1 seconds down on Raikkonen's race best.

Couple this with the way Rubens left him standing after he passed him and I believe that the Boy Button has to take his fair share of the blame for Honda's horrible start to the season.

That still doesn't back up WSRfan's suggestion that Button's driving is the problem, and not the car. Neither Barrichello or Button is a bad driver, and both have won races, so it should be fairly obvious that the Honda isn't performing well at the moment.

[ArrowsFA1]

That was one hell of a reality check for Honda :eek: Beaten by a Williams and a Super Aguri must have been painful for Button personally, and the team as a whole.

Barrichello certainly seemed to get a little more out of the RA107 than Button (0.3s faster in the race) but that's not saying much when he was 2.8s off the pace of the winning Ferrari. That's a lifetime in F1 terms, and it's hard to see where Honda are going to find that kind of time.

Looks like a tough season ahead :(

[aryan]

Toyota and honda as i said are new to f1

I don't think honda is new to Grand Prix racing, you must be though. Honda has been involved in Formula 1 now for decades, they have been multiple champion as an engine supplier.

Honda is a proper racing company, and has always been. In between NSX and Integra Mk.I, it has probably peoduced the best handling rear-wheel drive and front-wheel drive road car of the world. Do not compare it's history to the cheater that's called Toyota.

Honda should just forget this car and produce a B version or something, like what McLaren did in 2003. (was that 2003?)

[seppefan]

I thought all this was willis's fault....whose head will go next...fry ?

[Hazell B]

Well, Button's performance today was bloody awful. He finished 4 places and 40+ seconds behind Barrichello ...
...Rubens left him standing after he passed him and I believe that the Boy Button has to take his fair share of the blame for Honda's horrible start to the season.


:up:
Button did what he usually does do, he finished lower down than he started (allowing for the cars who fall off the track ahead of him during the race he lost several places in reality) and Rubens made up a little.

Honda are having a poor start and expect a poor season. Blame's in both their vehicles and one of the driver choices in my opinion.

Wonder where all the Button fans are on this thread? :laugh:

[Dave B]

:wave: A Button fan here!

I don't know what to make of his drive this morning. Rubens had the measure of him all through the race, although should have been more forceful in passing him earlier.

Obviously the car was a handful, and it must have stung to have seen the Super Aguris ahead, but Button was outpaced outclassed by his team mate today.

With Hamilton's performance up ahead, the press will have a new darling and if Button's not careful his currency will be massively devalued.

[BeansBeansBeans]

Wonder where all the Button fans are on this thread?

I'm a Button fan, and I've posted on this thread.

One weekend does not a season make.

It wasn't a great day for Jenson, and he was outperformed by his team-mate, but I still predict that he will be Honda's highest-scoring driver at the end of the season, ahead of Barrichello, Davidson and Sato.

[tinchote]

It's too early to predict. But, as Arrows said, almost 3 secs off the pace is something to be really really worried.

[jens]

It's probably only matter of time, when Honda starts convincingly beating Super Aguri and scoring points. But a race win is probably only a dream unless there is gonna be a chaotic race.

[trumperZ06]

:dozey: Looks like Button & Honda are in for a tough season. I'm sure Honda's burning the midnight oil trying to get things right. Button's got to improve if he hopes to remain Honda's number 1 driver.

;) Honda did have an impressive debut at Sebring this weekend in LMP2... at least it's something to be cheerful about.

:s mokin: Trumper

[Garry Walker]

Nice to see Rubens so easily bettering button, I just wish Honda was doing a bit better. They have the potential I think, if they sort out their car they will be mighty quick.

[Daika]

They have the potential I think, if they sort out their car they will be mighty quick.

They are trying to solve it for 7 years or so...

[OutRun]

"Now is the winter of our discontent made disgusting summer by this son of Frome"

Jenson didn't have a good day but the car is so obviously off the pace. I only hope that there is some unleashed potential in the RA107. The earth livery looked quite dramatic during the race.

[Sleeper]

Did anyone see the onboard footage from Buttons car, I cant remember the last time I saw a driver have to work so hard at the wheel to keep the car on the straight and narrow. For a driver thats had so much said about how smooth his driving style is, it was a surprise to see him have to work so hard, I can only imagine that the car was a real pig out there for him today. At least Barichello seemed to have it sorted better (he'd caught Sato and Trulli by the end).

[stevie_gerrard]

well i have to say i thought Rubens got back into it well and could have got a point towards the end, so i think there is some pace in that Honda, but the set up is all wrong, especially on bunsens car, that really needs to be sorted out before Malaysia, they got 3 weeks to save their season! :(

[BeansBeansBeans]

Jenson didn't have a good day but the car is so obviously off the pace. I only hope that there is some unleashed potential in the RA107. The earth livery looked quite dramatic during the race.

I've read that Jenson believes the RA107 to be fundamentally better than last year's Honda, but they just haven't been able to get the best out of it in terms of set-up. Like the beginning of last year, they seem to be having terrible trouble getting the best out of the tyres. I believe they will eventually overcome these issues and challenge for podiums (as they did in 2006), but in order to compete for championships the car needs to be sorted by the time it gets to Melbourne, not Hungary.

[ClarkFan]

I thought all this was willis's fault....whose head will go next...fry ?

Um, well, the headsman is probably measuring his chopping block to ensure that Fry's head will fit. :s

This is the third straight year that the team has gotten off to a rough start. Last year they were able to catch up by year end, but it kills chances of good placing in the championships when you start out digging yourself a hole. Can anybody in the house set up a car?

ClarkFan

[J1]

I guess 90% of the Button slaggers in this thread are Brits who run now to support Lewis :rolleyes:
the other 10% is Valve :p :

[longisland]

Which do you preferred?
Being kissed by the Minogue sisters & then having a terrible race or,
totally humiliated in the quali session & finishing 12 ahead of a Super Aguri?

[jens]

One of the reasons why Barrichello managed to beat Button, is that besides Button had a problem with front wing.

But still have to admit that Rubens seems very competitive compared to Jenson, but the reason here is that Button's driving style is very smooth and he needs well-balanced car to realise the maximum of his talent. That unstable and "skating" car is quite unsuitable for him.

[FreshF1]

Did you hear on the car radio during the race that Rubens received a message from the pits that that tyre he was on was more competitive - so didn't it seem that at the end of the race he was faster than at the beginning?

[Dave B]

I guess 90% of the Button slaggers in this thread are Brits who run now to support Lewis :rolleyes:
the other 10% is Valve :p :


Not a bit of it. I've supported Button for years and will continue to do so. That doesn't mean I can't criticise his performance in Australia, nor does it mean I can't cheer on Lewis and praise him when he does well.

[Garry Walker]

Which do you preferred?
Being kissed by the Minogue sisters & then having a terrible race or,
totally humiliated in the quali session & finishing 12 ahead of a Super Aguri?

Considering how ugly the minogue sisters are, definitley the latter.

[Hazell B]

Can't say the Minogue sisters do much for me, either :p :

J1 - why shouldn't we cheer on any driver we feel deserves it? There's a new rule about not being allowed to cheer for somebody new, is there? Thought not :rolleyes:

For the record, I've never rated Button half as much as Button himself has.

[Subaru WRX]

what a horrible weekend for Honda, and both drivers, seems that the Japanese teams, Honda and Toyota, will suffer a lot this year

[Ian McC]

I guess 90% of the Button slaggers in this thread are Brits who run now to support Lewis :rolleyes:
the other 10% is Valve :p :

What rubbish :rolleyes:

[Sleeper]

what a horrible weekend for Honda, and both drivers, seems that the Japanese teams, Honda and Toyota, will suffer a lot this year
At least Super Aguri look like they are going to have a good first half to the year.

Since we all know were that car came from maybe Honda can market it and say that they have a good car on the grid? :p

[Roamy]

well they hav e went downhill since Richards and now Fry. We all know a certain driver developed the 2004 car. Maybe they should have listened to Willis and Clear.

[ioan]

We all know a certain driver developed the 2004 car.

Without actually driving it! :p :

[wedge]

They seemed to be heading the right direction just has Willis walked out the door and the new wind tunnel went online????

Found this rather amusing by Ted Kravitz:

http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=Ted_Kravitz&PO_ID=38749


Except for letting you in on the musings of an experienced technical director who suggested that their new wind tunnel must have been incorrectly calibrated when it was rushed into service last year, as he found it inconceivable that a team of professional aerodynamicists could do such a bad job.

[ArrowsFA1]

Nick Fry's comments (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/57550) aren't exactly reassuring:

"I think we have to set ourselves the target of being up there with Renault and BMW by the start of the European season. Last year it basically took us until the halfway point to sort ourselves out, and there is no excuse for us not to be much closer by the time we get to Europe. I do expect a leap forward, but we need to fully understand what the problem is. And really for the last two years, because we have had intermittent problems, we are not really understanding the fundamental issue and that is something we really need to come to terms with. Maybe the parts we have for Sepang will address the issue, or maybe they won't. I would not be able to say hand on heart that we fully understand what the issues are with the car at the moment, and that is what we have got to do. Now we have a proper wind tunnel our expectation is that we can fix it a lot quicker than we did last year."
:dozey:

[ioan]

Who the hell are their engineers?
I have to say that I was not expecting such a comment. They have no clue what is happening with the chassis they designed!!! They should ask Super Aguri to lend them a real engineer.

[ClarkFan]

Without actually driving it! :p :

That would require a truly remarkable level of talent!

:p


Of course, that same driver developed the 1999-2003 cars...... :s

ClarkFan

[Ian McC]

Well no real improvement soon then as they obviously don't have a clue. Maybe they should get that wind tunnel going as it appears it will save the day :rolleyes:

[BeansBeansBeans]

Well no real improvement soon then as they obviously don't have a clue. Maybe they should get that wind tunnel going as it appears it will save the day.

It must be a real frustration for Jenson Button. No matter what your opinion of him as a driver, he is yet to be given a car that could genuinely challenge for the title. When Honda took full control of B.A.R. he must have thought he'd be onto a winner. However, I suspect he may now be scanning his contract for get-out clauses.

[zoostation]

It must be a real frustration for Jenson Button. No matter what your opinion of him as a driver, he is yet to be given a car that could genuinely challenge for the title. When Honda took full control of B.A.R. he must have thought he'd be onto a winner. However, I suspect he may now be scanning his contract for get-out clauses.


my thoughts exactly

[Roamy]

looks to me they were headed for the front until they got rid of a certain driver. some people just can't stand success

[janneppi]

looks to me they were headed for the front until they got rid of a certain driver. some people just can't stand success
You're right, BAR/Honda has been crap since Mika Salo left. :p :

[tinchote]

Nick Fry's comments (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/57550) aren't exactly reassuring:

:dozey:

You would expect the team principal to be a little more optimistic... :mark:

[Garry Walker]

It must be a real frustration for Jenson Button. No matter what your opinion of him as a driver, he is yet to be given a car that could genuinely challenge for the title. When Honda took full control of B.A.R. he must have thought he'd be onto a winner.

and who says that button actually deserves a car capable of fighting for the title? I for one dont think he deserves one at all. There are simply much better drivers around.

[BeansBeansBeans]

and who says that button actually deserves a car capable of fighting for the title? I for one dont think he deserves one at all. There are simply much better drivers around.

Whether he deserves a title-challenging car or not is down to personal opinion. I was merely pointing out that by this stage of his career, Jenson Button would have expected a shot at the World Chamionship, and that it must be frustrating for him that it hasn't come.

[jjanicke]

and who says that button actually deserves a car capable of fighting for the title? I for one dont think he deserves one at all. There are simply much better drivers around.

I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion. He's always been on par if not better than his teamates. He's extremely fast in 'driver' conditions, Hungary 2006 for example.

If RB takes it to him this year, I'd have to admit that JB appears to have more hype than talent. However I don't expect that anytime soon. Massa, who now is driving a championship contender, faired much worse compared to his teamates.

Since Richards depature honda hasn't gone anywhere, and that's certainly not JB's fault.

[ArrowsFA1]

You've got to wonder how the loss/firing of Geoff Willis is hurting Honda. Is it a coincidence that 'his' car beat his successors car in Australia?

[tinchote]

You've got to wonder how the loss/firing of Geoff Willis is hurting Honda. Is it a coincidence that 'his' car beat his successors car in Australia?

Good question. But we'll have to see what happens after a few races.

[jjanicke]

The Honda has been struggling for speed since they decided to boot Richards, in favor of taking the whole thing in house.

They struggled forever last year until they were finally able to get the RA06 handling well. I think JB was the highest point scorer during the later half of '06.

They obviously don't understand RA07 yet; even admit as much them selves. But when the do figure it out I wouldn't be surprised to see them rise to the top of 2nd tire again, hopefully (for them) ahead of the RA06.

[Scuderia ferrari]

Hooray, they finnaly realised! Barrichello i'm okay with, he could win he had a better car, but button is just a bit headed idiot who looks at things wrongly, a honda will not win the champ in the next 10 years with Alonso, Hamilton, Raikonen, Massa, Kubica and others around. There car is too rubish, it would help if Button went to a better team!

[futuretiger9]

The Honda has been struggling for speed since they decided to boot Richards, in favor of taking the whole thing in house.

They struggled forever last year until they were finally able to get the RA06 handling well. I think JB was the highest point scorer during the later half of '06.

They obviously don't understand RA07 yet; even admit as much them selves. But when the do figure it out I wouldn't be surprised to see them rise to the top of 2nd tire again, hopefully (for them) ahead of the RA06.


I may be wrong, but do I detect a case of "Toyota Syndrome" in the current direction of Honda's F1 programme? The same complex management structure, and a similar bland, "corporate" image.

[ioan]

I think JB was the highest point scorer during the later half of '06.

Not sure I understand where that comes from. Could you be more specific?

[ArrowsFA1]

From the Hungarian GP to the end of the season Button scored more points (35) than any other driver, which is one of the reasons why he and Honda had high hopes of mounting a championship challenge this year.

[ioan]

From the Hungarian GP to the end of the season Button scored more points (35) than any other driver, which is one of the reasons why he and Honda had high hopes of mounting a championship challenge this year.

Well, for me the "later HALF" of last season started at the USGP, or else we can start counting when we want. Why not starting with the Turkish GP, would JB still be the highest points scorer? I doubt it.

This is why I asked more info on this matter.

[ClarkFan]

From the Hungarian GP to the end of the season Button scored more points (35) than any other driver, which is one of the reasons why he and Honda had high hopes of mounting a championship challenge this year.

The problem being that the BAR/Honda designs haven't been well sorted at the start any of the last 3 seasons. I think that was why they fired Willis, but the laggard start to this year makes it pretty apparent that there are other factors/actors at work as well.

Honda has caught up the past 2 seasons, but was still only about the 4th fastest car at the end of 2005 and the 3rd fastest car last year. (Points comparison aside, Ferrari and Renault were still clearly faster than Honda.)

One of the interesting points of Super Aguri using the RA106 this year is that it sets up a parallel development line from the same starting point, with possible intrigue about involvement of Honda's Japan-based "skunk works" in Super Aguri. Unless, of course, they are enjoined by Spyker's legal action and have to go back to running Arrows chassis, all bets are off. :\

ClarkFan

[jjanicke]

Well, for me the "later HALF" of last season started at the USGP, or else we can start counting when we want. Why not starting with the Turkish GP, would JB still be the highest points scorer? I doubt it.

This is why I asked more info on this matter.

So what's your point?

My point was that JB is a good if not great driver, as indicated by him scoring more points than all others during the later half of last year.

[ioan]

So what's your point?

My point was that JB is a good if not great driver, as indicated by him scoring more points than all others during the later half of last year.

My point is that he didn't score more points than any other driver since the USGP till the end of the season (the second half of the season more precisely).

[jjanicke]

You brought the USGP into the thread, not me. + this is getting boring, let's move on.

[jens]

And amazingly before winter tests some guys predicted Honda to start fighting for the World Title...

Seems that exactly the same "2004 --> 2005" syndrome has happened that I feared aleady at the end of 2006. After a decent season (well, 2006 wasn't great - they hoped to fight for the title after winter tests, but we can say it was "decent") they have again somehow fallen asleep. Maybe again they have had a "wake-up and cold shower", which makes them preparing better for 2008 season? That is BAR/Honda - ups and downs year-by-year (somehow McLaren is the same: good year, bad year, good year, bad year, etc...)

I have also doubts about Mr. Nick Fry. Since he joined 2005, he has mostly been talking... like "it's only a matter of time until we start winning races", but really hasn't noticed any practically good move by him.

[93VTEC]

No offense to any one nation here, but I wish Honda was engineered by Honda guys in Japan. The same guys in Tochigi, that design the engines.

It almost feels as though Honda is doing exactly that with Super Aguri.Perhaps training their engineers on a team not fully associated with their name. Once honda believes engineers are ready for the big challenge, I feel that they may introduce more of them to the Honda team.

It seems a very slow process, but may work. No one can deny that Honda has some great engineers.

[Valve Bounce]

And amazingly before winter tests some guys predicted Honda to start fighting for the World Title...

Seems that exactly the same "2004 --> 2005" syndrome has happened that I feared aleady at the end of 2006.

It's called the DC syndrome :D

[Garry Walker]

I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion. He's always been on par if not better than his teamates. He's extremely fast in 'driver' conditions, Hungary 2006 for example.

2000 - beaten by Ralf.
2001 - humiliated by Fisichella, theres no other way to put it
2002 - A bit behind Trulli
2003 - Beats JV
2004/05 - Beats a nobody driver like Sato. That is not impressive at all.
2006 - Rubens who hated the Michelin tyres and Honda electronics managed to beat JB quite often
2007 - give it time, I predict Rubens will have the upper hand on JB this year, but only by a little. But still.

I am not quite sure how you came to the conclusion he has always been on par with his teammates - dont let the ITV and james Allen hype fool you.



If RB takes it to him this year, I'd have to admit that JB appears to have more hype than talent. However I don't expect that anytime soon. Massa, who now is driving a championship contender, faired much worse compared to his teamates. Massa faired much better against Fisichella than Button did.


Since Richards depature honda hasn't gone anywhere, and that's certainly not JB's fault. No. But he is hardly one of Hondas strongest points - there are much better drivers available. In 2004 he had a very very good car, often better than the Ferrari. Yet he didnt manage to win.

[Malbec]

No. But he is hardly one of Hondas strongest points - there are much better drivers available. In 2004 he had a very very good car, often better than the Ferrari. Yet he didnt manage to win.

I think your analysis of Button is a little unfair. Certainly I can think of no races in 2004 where the Honda was better than the Ferrari. If you're thinking of Indy, the Ferraris slowed down towards the end of the race, had they been under threat they would have walked away from the Hondas enough to ensure victory.

I agree he is overhyped, he is a little conservative in his racecraft, and there have been too many races where he has been consistently driving at 99% (which isn't bad in itself) but the Alonsos and Raikonnens of this world can drive consistently at 101% when it really counts. I've only seen Button do that once or twice, at the Nurburgring 2004 for example.

F1 being a marketplace, some measures of how his ability is perceived in the paddock include his salary, which is more than most out there, and the fact that two teams came to legal blows in trying to secure his services for 2005.

Poor drivers don't get fought over in that way, although admittedly very few drivers are stupid enough to get caught in that situation either.

[jjanicke]

2000 - beaten by Ralf.
2001 - humiliated by Fisichella, theres no other way to put it
2002 - A bit behind Trulli
2003 - Beats JV
2004/05 - Beats a nobody driver like Sato. That is not impressive at all.
2006 - Rubens who hated the Michelin tyres and Honda electronics managed to beat JB quite often
2007 - give it time, I predict Rubens will have the upper hand on JB this year, but only by a little. But still.

I am not quite sure how you came to the conclusion he has always been on par with his teammates - dont let the ITV and james Allen hype fool you.

Massa faired much better against Fisichella than Button did.

No. But he is hardly one of Hondas strongest points - there are much better drivers available. In 2004 he had a very very good car, often better than the Ferrari. Yet he didnt manage to win.


2000 - beaten by Ralf. - ok... 3 year veteran vs. rookie, 24 (RS) vs. 12
2001 - humiliated by Fisichella, theres no other way to put it - lol... 4 year veteran vs. 1 year, 8 (GF) vs. 2
2002 - A bit behind Trulli - a bit behind trulli?, 9 (JT) vs. 14
2003 - Beats JV - 6 (JV) vs. 17
2004/05 - Beats a nobody driver like Sato. That is not impressive at all. - '04 3rd in championship, 34 (TS) vs. 85; '05 23rd (TS) vs. 9th, 1 (TS) vs. 35
2006 - Rubens who hated the Michelin tyres and Honda electronics managed to beat JB quite often - 30 (RB) vs. 56
2007 - give it time, I predict Rubens will have the upper hand on JB this year, but only by a little. But still. - ..... enough said!


Massa faired much better against Fisichella than Button did..

2002 - 2 year veteran vs. rookie, 7 (NH) vs. 4
2003 - "oh.... I tested for Ferrari this year"
2004 - 8 years and nothing to show for it veteran vs. 2 year, 22 (GF) vs. 12
2005 - has been JV after a year off, 9 (JV) vs. 11
2006 - 121 (MS) vs. 80

[jjanicke]

2000 - beaten by Ralf.
2001 - humiliated by Fisichella, theres no other way to put it
2002 - A bit behind Trulli
2003 - Beats JV
2004/05 - Beats a nobody driver like Sato. That is not impressive at all.
2006 - Rubens who hated the Michelin tyres and Honda electronics managed to beat JB quite often
2007 - give it time, I predict Rubens will have the upper hand on JB this year, but only by a little. But still.

I am not quite sure how you came to the conclusion he has always been on par with his teammates - dont let the ITV and james Allen hype fool you.

Massa faired much better against Fisichella than Button did.

No. But he is hardly one of Hondas strongest points - there are much better drivers available. In 2004 he had a very very good car, often better than the Ferrari. Yet he didnt manage to win.


2000 - beaten by Ralf. - ok... 3 year veteran vs. rookie, 24 (RS) vs. 12
2001 - humiliated by Fisichella, theres no other way to put it - lol... 4 year veteran vs. 1 year, 8 (GF) vs. 2
2002 - A bit behind Trulli - a bit behind trulli?, 9 (JT) vs. 14
2003 - Beats JV - 6 (JV) vs. 17
2004/05 - Beats a nobody driver like Sato. That is not impressive at all. - '04 3rd in championship, 34 (TS) vs. 85; '05 23rd (TS) vs. 9th, 1 (TS) vs. 35
2006 - Rubens who hated the Michelin tyres and Honda electronics managed to beat JB quite often - 30 (RB) vs. 56
2007 - give it time, I predict Rubens will have the upper hand on JB this year, but only by a little. But still. - ..... enough said!


Massa faired much better against Fisichella than Button did..

2002 - 2 year veteran vs. rookie, 7 (NH) vs. 4
2003 - "oh.... I tested for Ferrari this year"
2004 - 8 years and nothing to show for it veteran vs. 2 year, 22 (GF) vs. 12
2005 - has been JV after a year off, 9 (JV) vs. 11
2006 - 121 (MS) vs. 80


No. But he is hardly one of Hondas strongest points - there are much better drivers available. In 2004 he had a very very good car, often better than the Ferrari. Yet he didnt manage to win.

The Honda was better than Ferrari in 2004??????? You mean the 2004 when Ferrari won 15 of 18 races, dominated the constructors championship 262 to 119 (their nearest competitor), and took 38% of all drivers points that were available. (By the way it's only possible to take 46% of the drivers points if you score a perfect 1-2 every race. Meaning they took 81% of all available driver points.) Do you mean that 2004?

[Robinho]

thanks JJ, i wanted to post something along those lines but you've sumarised it very neatly and made all the points i was thinking

[jens]

Btw, I don't think Sato is a "nobody-driver". On his day he can basically be as quick as anyone. He just needs confidence to score results - he didn't have that confidence in 2005, but had at the end of 2004 (five consistent point finishes in a row) and has now. Confidence that his race seat is not in danger! And there have been races, where Sato can confidently be nominated as the "driver of the day", one of the most remarkable ones for example Indy 2004.

And I don't support the question in Super Aguri's case that "what could they have done with better drivers" in Australia. Not much better - maybe 8th or 9th in quali at best. And 10th in the race. In quali this was one of those occasions, where Sato (and Davidson) managed to reach his full potential.


I've only seen Button do that once or twice, at the Nurburgring 2004 for example.


Nürburgring 2004? Sato was clearly ahead of Button that day, fighting with Rubens for second, but was unfortunately a bit overoptimistic. More likely you meant Hockenheim 2004?

[ioan]

TS and JB might be both very fast, but one thing that JB never had and TS has plenty of it is that killer instinct needed in racing.
Some will say that Takuma made wrong moves while using his killer instinct, well it's still better than chickening out a la Jenson.

[BeansBeansBeans]

TS and JB might be both very fast, but one thing that JB never had and TS has plenty of it is that killer instinct needed in racing.
Some will say that Takuma made wrong moves while using his killer instinct, well it's still better than chickening out a la Jenson.

Surely a killer-instinct is an attribute which allows a driver to choose the right moment to execute a perfect overtaking maneuver?

If you are going to attribute this killer-instinct to any driver who regularly makes rash overtaking attempts, then it means very little.

[ioan]

Surely a killer-instinct is an attribute factor which allows a driver to choose the right moment to execute a perfect overtaking maneuvere?

If you are going to attribute this killer-instinct to any driver who regularly makes rash overtaking attempts, then it means very little.

The killer instinct it's about finding that moment, making it happen, perfect or less perfect.
And I would rather attribute it to a driver that made some less than perfect moves (but good ones too) than to the one who never looked like making it happen.

[BeansBeansBeans]

And I would rather attribute it to a driver that made some less than perfect moves (but good ones too) than to the one who never looked like making it happen.

The one who never looked like making it happen? Would that be the same Jenson Button who committed arguably the move of 2004 on Alonso at Hockenheim? I never thought I'd see such praise of Sato's overtaking ability from a Schumacher fan, given what happened at Spa in 2005.

[ioan]

The one who never looked like making it happen? Would that be the same Jenson Button who committed arguably the move of 2004 on Alonso at Hockenheim?

So, one move on an inferior car.


I never thought I'd see such praise of Sato's overtaking ability from a Schumacher fan, given what happened at Spa in 2005.

I'm not that biased as some might think. I can evaluate Sato's abilities without crucifying him for what happened in Spa 2005 and Suzuka 2003.

[Malbec]

Nürburgring 2004? Sato was clearly ahead of Button that day, fighting with Rubens for second, but was unfortunately a bit overoptimistic. More likely you meant Hockenheim 2004?

Well picked up, you're right of course, I meant Hockenheim

[Roamy]

i think a little closer evaluation of JV vs Button will reveal a different story
he really needs to beat RB or I would think he is in trouble. Honda like Toyota has made many mistakes and like it or not F1 resides in italy or great britain. Willis was a big mistake for them as ove is for toyota. Craig had the team poised to win and then Barf pissed it away. it will be a struggle to get back and will Honda stay the course?/?

[ArrowsFA1]

The problem being that the BAR/Honda designs haven't been well sorted at the start any of the last 3 seasons.
True. Looking back to last year's Australian GP, although Button qualified well his race pace was poor. The problem then was getting enough heat into the tyres over longer distances, but JB's comment about the 2006 problem is interesting...:
"With our car, we need to change something but at the moment we don't know what." ...in the light of Nick Fry's comment this year that:
"we are not really understanding the fundamental issue and that is something we really need to come to terms with."
Little has changed :dozey:

[555-04Q2]

Little has changed :dozey:

Indeed :( They know how to build a race car with 4 wheels and a steering wheel (hell I could do that and so could you) but they dont seem to be able to build a fast, balanced and reliable race car which is what is needed to win in F1.

Until they start "understanding" their own car, Honda will remain an also ran :down: Button must be p!$$ed with the situation with Honda :p :

[Valve Bounce]

TS and JB might be both very fast, but one thing that JB never had and TS has plenty of it is that killer instinct needed in racing.
Some will say that Takuma made wrong moves while using his killer instinct, .........

Yeah, like trying to ram everyone on the track; and when he missed the drivers, he went for the tyre fences. :p :

[Valve Bounce]

Indeed :( They know how to build a race car with 4 wheels and a steering wheel (hell I could do that and so could you) but they dont seem to be able to build a fast, balanced and reliable race car which is what is needed to win in F1.

Until they start "understanding" their own car, Honda will remain an also ran :down: Button must be p!$$ed with the situation with Honda :p :

...............and go for a drive with Williams :D