Any idea how much longer.....

[Ramone]

......SCSA will last? It has spectacularly failed to break through into the mainstream in the last 6 years, and doesn't seem to be showing any signs of doing so in the future. A couple more seasons with dwindling crowds and entries.......

[Abo]

......SCSA will last? It has spectacularly failed to break through into the mainstream in the last 6 years, and doesn't seem to be showing any signs of doing so in the future. A couple more seasons with dwindling crowds and entries.......

Yawn. **** off back to where you came from Ramone...

[EarWig]

Ramone =

[turn 4 mad]

......SCSA will last? It has spectacularly failed to break through into the mainstream in the last 6 years, and doesn't seem to be showing any signs of doing so in the future. A couple more seasons with dwindling crowds and entries.......

ramone, why dont you come to rockingham wearing a t shirt with im Ramone on it and well see how long you last( and i bet it wont be as long as scsa)

[Reynard]

Can you folks kindly debate this in a civilised manner? If you wish to sling manure, I have a muck heap that wants spreading on my veg garden... ;)

[Sticker Rub]

Why the aggressive response guys? I've no idea if Ramone lives under a bridge or is asking an innocent question.

This question may come round with wearying regularity but can't we at least rise above the personal attacks? Have you considered that maybe Ramone is not a regular visitor to this forum & is unaware we've discussed this ad naseum?

[Sticker Rub]

Beat me to it Witty!

[english4ever]

Yawn. **** off back to where you came from Ramone...

took the words out of my mouth!

[71minus2]

This time of the year is negative poster heaven, Ramone may lack tact but does pose a relevant question. But why not take his/her post as a reason to prove that SCSA can survive and will make the mainstream?

Don't flame just because you dont like whats being said. I have been on the receiving end of that for an innocent (but ill worded) post.

[acorn]

......SCSA will last? It has spectacularly failed to break through into the mainstream in the last 6 years, and doesn't seem to be showing any signs of doing so in the future. A couple more seasons with dwindling crowds and entries.......

how much longer will it last?........... how long is a piece of string or as long as they can field a grid size that meets the minimum standard required and there's driver and spectator interest.

"...doesn't seem to be showing...." .doesn't mean it won't in the future

"a couple more seasons...."..... doesn't mean numbers won't pickup again(scuse the pun).

[jonv]

it depends what you mean by 'mainstream' the average man in the street is unlikely to know about legends racing but it is a successful series.
As mainstream as Nascar ? Not a chance.
Health grids, competitive racing, TV coverage, large and growing fan base ? Maybe.

[champcarjim]

it will last as long as fans will go and pay to watch.

i think this season will be as bigger test than last year, with getting the yellow card off the msa.

the whole concept of mainstream is down to the individual on how he see's it.

motorsport in the uk ranks below cricket even in F1 weekend, the way some see things if your not on bbc,itv or sky sports your nothing.

take tv channel bravo they are having to stop there italian football cos nobody watch's it.

fame is what you make of it

[FRW]

Next year will be better! 2 x 50 lap races with pit stops,time to dust off those nut guns. Tv deals are been put together but nothing confirmed as yet, its looking good and alot better than last season. There will be more cars on grid as a few have been bought this month by new teams.
Just keep dangling those carrots !!! The rest will follow!

[Nick Brad]

Next year will be better! 2 x 50 lap races with pit stops....

I like the longer races being reintroduced, but the pitstops I'm not so sure on. Personally, I'm not keen on them as there's no tactical reason for them like NASCAR, F1 and so on, they were introduced originally purely as an added attraction for the crowd. I may be more appreciative of them if teams at least could choose when to pit within say a 10-15 lap window instead of the standard 2 laps.

[Abo]

I may be more appreciative of them if teams at least could choose when to pit within say a 10-15 lap window instead of the standard 2 laps.

Yeah, I'll go along with that

[pickup]

Next year will be better! 2 x 50 lap races with pit stops,time to dust off those nut guns.
Although this may make it a bit more interesting to spectators i also am not a fan of pitstops. It had been suggested that pickups introduce pitstops the problem is with both formulas i don't think people appreciate the extra costs involved ( + extra work ) . Some teams are struggling to find enough crew without pitstops, you can manage with a spotter and a couple of crew in the pits at the moment but not if pitstops were introduced the cost involved in equiping extra people with safety equipment portable air systems and tools plus the training involved in fast, safe pitstops could possibly put potential new teams off joining the championship.
I think in the SCSA case it would be more beneficial running 50 lap races without pitstops but trying to bring the racing closer, either by sharing data between teams ( which i know has been tried before ) and also trying to solve the problem of running closer without crashing. I know the aero package on these cars has been a problem especially when racing closely with other cars but other oval saloons seem to manage.
Seeing three, four or five cars eliminated after only a few laps and the rest of the field spread around the oval in the next few laps does not make entertaining racing IMO especially with low numbers of cars.
I realise not everybody can run at the same pace but just trying to close the field so there are groups of cars battling for position would make for more spectator friendly races.
The SCSA deserve to succeed after the effort people have put in to keep the formula running and as i have previously stated i would love to see a full grid of v8's battling around the oval with a capacity crowd on their feet cheering for their man.

[inamo]

If you read Racecar Engineering there have been some interesting articles on the topic of aerodynamics and oval cars in the last 3 issues. Performance equalisation will always be difficult. If you look at the results from qualifying a lot of cars are within a few 10ths of each other, however this hasn't translated into race pace. Not sure why that should be the case, most of the teams have a good amount of experience and information from previous years now.

To throw a spanner in the works, it would be interesting to see if the teams would benefit from using data logging to better understand how the cars are working - given that clubman Formula Ford permits it I'm surprised that SCSA don't - at least for test days - NASCAR do!

[darknessrock]

Maybe we need a Rockingham/SCSA on BATracer inamo, then the teams would be able to perfect their setup without damaging the car! (unless you're driving!)LOL!

[Dave17]

Maybe we need a Rockingham/SCSA on BATracer inamo, then the teams would be able to perfect their setup without damaging the car! (unless you're driving!)LOL!

...or jordygirl's in the hot seat! http://www.thesmilies.com/smilies/scared0012.gif (http://www.thesmilies.com)

[Speedworx]

Next year will be better! 2 x 50 lap races with pit stops,time to dust off those nut guns. Tv deals are been put together but nothing confirmed as yet, its looking good and alot better than last season. There will be more cars on grid as a few have been bought this month by new teams.
Just keep dangling those carrots !!! The rest will follow!

Do you really need a pitstop in a 50 lap race?

Flat out 50 lap sprint would be cool or 100 lapper with a pitstop.

[Chigley]

Do you really need a pitstop in a 50 lap race?


Only one trouble, I don't believe the tanks are big enough for 50 laps. 100 laps forget it! When we get double the predicted numbers for this year maybe. With 100 laps we would loose more spectators (and therefore more cash) as it would be absolute boredom with a hugely spread out field.

Personally, I would prefer the 35 lap races without the pit stops. For us I don't think it enhances the racing, maybe adds a thrill for spectators to watch, but all it does is increase costs when the teams are struggling for cash.

:)

[pickup]

Well said Chigley, not to sure about the fuel cell size on the SCSA cars maybe a crew member could advise. I would personally have thought they could manage 50 laps but either way we have the same ideas on the racing from a team (financial) and spectator point of view.
I believe the success of the pickups is down to the close racing (entertainment) a good field of cars and although not cheap compared to the costs of some formulas good value for money (at the moment).

[jonv]

The SCSA cars managed 60 laps on a tank a few seasons ago. They had pitstops but only for tyre changes.

[acorn]

The SCSA cars managed 60 laps on a tank a few seasons ago.

what would be the range if they did switch to bio ethanol?

[Duane]

we could do 60 laps on a tank as previous years but time restraints on the day has us at 50.

the rules for 2006 has the pit window at 5 laps to allow a pit crew to service two cars if neeeded, so if a new team is struggling with the idea of pit stops then i am sure there will be crews who would love to do two cars in the pit window.

And there lies the main point, not only are the pitstops part of the day for the crowd and TV its the part of the race day that the crew get to get their adrenalin going, the pit stops will be back for them if nothing else they came all last year and they were as much a part of why the series kept going, dont knock it as you are knocking the guy's who are itching to do pit stops the most.

It also adds another variable of seeing your car making places up due to the whole team working together in 13 seconds of pure madness........

Duane

Duane

[Sticker Rub]

I'd prefer to see a larger window to add a bit of variety in strategies.

[jonv]

the rules for 2006 has the pit window at 5 laps to allow a pit crew to service two cars if neeeded, so if a new team is struggling with the idea of


2007 ? :)
Any other rule changes ?

[pickup]

And there lies the main point, not only are the pitstops part of the day for the crowd and TV its the part of the race day that the crew get to get their adrenalin going, the pit stops will be back for them if nothing else

Duane

Duane

If pit stops are neccesary for a TV deal or the majority of spectators would rather a race with them then OK, but surely you can't have pitstops just for the crew. I realise how important the crew are to each team and how much time and effort each member puts into a race weekend but surely the race is to entertain the paying spectator not keep the crew happy. I'm sure at the end of a meeting if you've brought the car and driver home safely with maybe a good result and enjoyed the weekend then everybody in the team is happy with their effort and pleased to be part of that team.

[LessThanSte]

No problem with pitstops, its the speeding issues im more worried about. The last few times ive seen stops its been quite clear that some cars are steaming along pit lane at much greater speeds, accelerating before the line etc etc. Its abit annoying then to see 2 cars come in 5 seconds apart, have virtually identical stops and leave together!!!

[JDPower]

Do you really need a pitstop in a 50 lap race?
If they're gonna be as spread out as this year, yes.

[pickup]

If they're gonna be as spread out as this year, yes.

So what difference will a pit stop make to the cars being spread out? Assuming each teams pit stops are of a similar time track position will remain the same.

[tdb]

There is never a garauntee a pit stop will go 100% smoothly, so it throws all sorts of possibilities into the equasion.

Also i don't know anybody that goes racing to entertain the paying spectator.
Drivers and crews go racing to race and try to win.
Entertaing the paying spectator enables the racing to continue, so entertaining is a neccesary part of whole picture.
Not the main reason for racing!

[Dave17]

We could always have more yellows to bunch the field up....How many spare wrist watches do you have Chigley? http://www.thesmilies.com/smilies/evilgrin0039.gif (http://www.thesmilies.com)

[Chigley]

The SCSA cars managed 60 laps on a tank a few seasons ago. They had pitstops but only for tyre changes.

Is Mr Dave 17 suggesting that I would drop a watch from the gantry to bring out a yellow and wake up the safety crews, perish the idea. :eek: The dropping stuff off of the gantry is a very exclusive club of one, :p and I have no intention of joining him, neither as Al i believe. Red faces and p*ss taking I can do without, spoilsport that I may be.!! :D

Cheers
Ian

[Al_Green]

...and you know how close I've been to joining that club, and really don't intend to now, thank you very much.

Duane,

not only are the pitstops part of the day for the crowd and TV its the part of the race day that the crew get to get their adrenalin going
Reading between the lines (or missed some info somewhere), why make the races TV friendly unless you've got...... Any blanks to fill here? Just poking the fire!

Al.

[Al_Green]

No problem with pitstops, its the speeding issues im more worried about. The last few times ive seen stops its been quite clear that some cars are steaming along pit lane at much greater speeds, accelerating before the line etc etc. Its abit annoying then to see 2 cars come in 5 seconds apart, have virtually identical stops and leave together!!!

To be sure to equalise it you could introduce a minimum pit lane time, say be on pit lane (ie between two set in & out lines in pit lane) for at least 30/40 seconds including stop or get a drive-thru. I don't know if MST can handle measuring this with the transponders or not, and it does reduce the 'frenzy' of the stop, but it does reduce the risk of the example given above, which can't really be removed unless we get pit speed cameras at entry, centre and exit p/l.

Just a thought,
Al.

[pickup]

There is never a garauntee a pit stop will go 100% smoothly, so it throws all sorts of possibilities into the equasion.
Yes maybe so but i think it would take more than a dropped wheelnut to close up 8 or 10 cars spread over 2 or 3 laps.

Also i don't know anybody that goes racing to entertain the paying spectator.
Drivers and crews go racing to race and try to win.
Entertaing the paying spectator enables the racing to continue, so entertaining is a neccesary part of whole picture.
Not the main reason for racing![/QUOTE]

Sorry mate but if you don't entertain the paying spectator then he aint gonna come back and you aint gonna have nowhere to race, Rockingham needs to make money or it closes!
How can you say you "don't know anybody that goes racing to entertain the paying spectator" and then say "entertaining the paying spectator enables the racing to continue" surely your contradicting yourself.
Obviously drivers and crews want to try to win thats why its called a race but if your not bothered about putting on a show (entertaining) why do we have all the pre race build up Rockchicks, music, parade of cars with dolly birds sitting on them, crews in uniform, gentlemen start your engines, rolling laps to we will rock you, commentator hyping up the crowd , it's all part of the show (entertainment).
Nascar is probably the most successful race series in the world all based around entertaining the many thousands of fans who pay to watch, sure they all want to win but how many teams would be there without the big sponsors who are attracted by the huge fanbase who go to be ENTERTAINED.
If you just want to race and win go club racing or get a few like minded people rent a dissused airfield or join one of the many available trackdays pay your money and have a race.
If you want the SCSA to succeed then firstly it needs to attract more people by providing good close racing which the paying public will want to keep returning to see. The idea of people paying is that they want to be ENTERTAINED to see a show wether it be football, rugby, tennis, ice hockey or motor racing it's all ENTERTAINMENT.

[LessThanSte]

Many fans would argue, me included, that we'd prefer to just watch the racing and suffer none of the other necessities. OK, an anthem is nice, as is the GSYE, but the rest is generally irrelevant as far as im concerned!

Mr Al, ive heard that there are actually timing loops at the beginning and end of pit lane, and presumably also along it at regular intervals. However, these dont tend to be connected on race days (correct me if im wrong!). I know a woman who works on the timing so il ask her next time i see her!

But they had champ car there and i dont remember a fuss about pit speeding so there must have been some way of checking!

NASCAR will always have to be lenient of speeding because of the lack of speedo's, the pit speed is based on a partially guessed tach reading (and i assume thats the same for SCSA?). They generally allow 5mph more than the speed limit because of it, but there were times when i saw cars pull right up to the back of another car on pit road, almsot like a karting event where they say 'stay at walking speed' but everyone tries to push it that bit faster in pit lane!

[Chigley]

But they had champ car there and i dont remember a fuss about pit speeding so there must have been some way of checking!

Yes they did, it was called manpower (marshals/officials) we could do it if we could afford to have someone on a speed gun all day but we haven't got the bodies for that type of luxury. These days it unusual to have any one to control the pit exit lights, its usually one of the safety crews!

You know which drum I could start banging now, I won't, but the message is in the text! :)

Ian

[Duane]

Al,
We are obviously talking TV deals for next year, there are more than one so we are hopefull of a good deal for the series in the new year.

[cgs]

pickup, what i think think he meant by "i don't know anybody that goes racing to entertain the paying spectator" is that, although that is important, it isn't the first thing on the list.

i doubt someone woke up one day and said "i want to entertain people, how do i do that? i know! lets go racing!" its more likely that they decide to go racing and then decide that entertaining the crowd is important aswell.

it was badly phrased, but i think that was what he was trying to say...

[pickup]

pickup, what i think think he meant by "i don't know anybody that goes racing to entertain the paying spectator" is that, although that is important, it isn't the first thing on the list.

i doubt someone woke up one day and said "i want to entertain people, how do i do that? i know! lets go racing!" its more likely that they decide to go racing and then decide that entertaining the crowd is important aswell.

it was badly phrased, but i think that was what he was trying to say...

I appreciate what he was trying to say but i still think in this case it is equally if not more important that the whole Thunder Sunday ethos is about putting on a show. With the precarious situation at Rockingham it needs to make a profit to keep going in which case more people through the turnstiles. If the series is not successful where else can you race cars specifically built to race on big ovals ( as yet in this country there is nowhere else to go).
You could win the best race ever but without anyone there to watch how long can you keep racing on a track that is not financially viable.
I have been racing or associated with racing for 35 years and always wanted to win or my team to win but i also know the incentive of providing value for money for people who pay to watch and with the SCSA/Pickup series i would really like it to continue and be successful in a fantastic facillity like Rockingham so whatever it takes is fine by me.

[acorn]

firstly, i stand to be corrected if i'm wrong.

if rockingham were not charging the racers for the privilege of racing there via entry fees then i would agree with "With the precarious situation at Rockingham it needs to make a profit to keep going in which case more people through the turnstiles" but isn't the circuit hired from rockingham in most cases and then the costs of hiring the circuit recouped from racers and spectators entry fees so its actually now(unlike under it's previous owners) the promoters/organising club(and racers indirectly) who benefit from extra numbers through the gate.

again, shoot me down if i'm wildly off but f3/gt will be hiring the circuit but btcc have got an invite because rockingham believes they will make a killing at the gate on btcc.

if thunder sundays regularly pulled in far more than through the gate than the circuit was charging in hire fees then the circuit might choose to promote the event.

again if i'm wildly off in my understanding please correct me.

finally, if racers want to keep their own entry fees down then they've got to put on a good show for the paying punters(or find someone who's got pots of disposable income to support their hobby). with regard to retaining our only big oval that i'm afraid is currently in the hands of a certain mr a buller.

[pickup]

Yes acorn i believe you are correct, i think with the decline in spectators the stadium hire has to be covered from competitors thats why i believe if the people can be persuaded to return then the racers would be in a better negotiating position regarding track hire. When the spetator numbers were higher i seem to remember that SCSA teams were being paid to race, but with the decline in the series and spectator interest also the takeover of the stadium then things had to change.
As for the BTCC again i'm sure you are correct, with the huge number of fans expected then gate receipts will more than compensate for track hire, this is the position that i would like to see happen with SCSA/Pickup Thunder Sundays (we can but dream) and as you say the "circuit might choose to promote the event"

"if racers want to keep their own entry fees down the've got to put on a good show for the paying punters"

This is exactly what i am trying to say i can appreciate peoples views with regards to racing and winning but at the moment it is more important to increase the success of the series rather than doing things to please team members.
With regards to mr Buller i know he is a buisness man but also an oval fan
( and i seem to remember ex racer ) if the series could become successful and actually make money then i'm sure he will keep Rockingham running for as long as possible.
As i said previously i am a big fan of Rockingham especially the oval and think the demise of the series and possibly the circuit wold be a great loss to British motorsport so lets do everything we can to keep it going!

[MGH]

Why not distribute some free tickets for the first round to selected local businesses for distribution among the staff. This would boost the attendance, create a "feel good factor" with the regular fans and help with promotion and sponsors.
I am sure that some of those who recieved free tickets would buy a bacon roll or a programme thereby contributing to the costs of distributing the tickets. If they are properly entertained they may even enjoy the day out and pay for a ticket next time.

[Sticker Rub]

While free tickets can get bums on seats, it doesn't do anything to help meet costs. Either you'll find that the tickets get used & there'll be a resentment to pay for something next time that was free last time or the tickets will just end up on Ebay.

If tickets are going to be given away, it's better to target them to gain maximum publicity by for example giving them to local radio stations for on air competitions. That generates publicity & a buzz and ecourages people to come along & see what it's all about with a relatively minimal investment & impact on sales.

There was a big clampdown on free tickets in 2005 & although it reduced crowd sizes, I believe ticket sales increased (I'm sure if Jeff's lurking, he'll correct me if I'm wrong).

[JovialJooles]

Why not distribute some free tickets for the first round to selected local businesses for distribution among the staff. This would boost the attendance, create a "feel good factor" with the regular fans and help with promotion and sponsors.
I am sure that some of those who recieved free tickets would buy a bacon roll or a programme thereby contributing to the costs of distributing the tickets. If they are properly entertained they may even enjoy the day out and pay for a ticket next time.

I'm struggling here. How would distributing free tickets to locals create a feel good factor to the loyal paying fan?

Given the number of free tickets that have been given away in the past and the number of bums on seats in 2005/2006, I think it's pretty obvious that 1 free ticket = 1 free visit. I am not convinced that 1 free ticket = lots of paying return visits. (unless of course they've all been abducted by aliens! :D )

[racing59]

What they need is a loyalty scheme.

Produce the ticket stub from the previous meeting to get a discount.
Produce one from each and every meeting (Thunder Sunday) and get the finale half price (I can't see the Ovalfest disorganisers wearing that though!)

Do us racers do it to entertain the spectators - I do - well that's my intention. If I didn't have that intention, I wouldn't have built my mad crazy Astra Belmont Thundersaloon, nor would I have been trying ever so hard to get into the SCSA. Now I have my own car.... be prepared for some antics!!

WE need YOU more than you need us!!! That's my belief.

Until the circuits wake up to that, motor racing in this sceptred isle will be a poor cousin to indoor bowls on mainstream TV, where it once had a much bigger presence. I remember as a kid watching "Wheels" on ITV, and other mid week sports specials on Angela TV, with Stuart Jarrold presenting Stock Cars and Hot Rods, sometimes LIVE!! Plus the BEEB showing all sorts of stuff on Grandstand, let alone Dicky Davies on World of Sport showing Autocross!!!

Someone asked me if they were ever going to bring back the bands at the rock as part of the show? There seems to be quite a following that came to see a band, and watched the racing as well. Where the race fans came, watched the racing, and then exited stage left when the last car entered the pits.

Do we need the bands again? Local bands having a chance at making a name for themselves, maybe a "battle of the bands" for the season finale????????

More publicity must be good publicity!!

Rob.

[Jeff Carter]

Why not distribute some free tickets for the first round to selected local businesses for distribution among the staff. This would boost the attendance, create a "feel good factor" with the regular fans and help with promotion and sponsors.
I am sure that some of those who recieved free tickets would buy a bacon roll or a programme thereby contributing to the costs of distributing the tickets. If they are properly entertained they may even enjoy the day out and pay for a ticket next time.

Here is what we discovered from the 2002 /2003 seasons when we gave away lots of free tickets to boost the crowds. Yes there was good attendance but the theory that they would spend money at the circuit failed to work. It seemed that people who were having a free day out were having exactly that and brought their own food and didn't spend much in the shop.

It also caused problems further down the line when we stopped the free tickets, no one in the local area was buying tickets as they were waiting for Rockingham to get cold feet and dump loads of freebies at the last minute. It took two or three events for that particular message to sink in.

Freebies/ cheap tickets also tee off the regulars. At Champ Car in 2001 Ford did a £25 'last minute' ticket and there were a number of complaints from customers who bought £80 advance tickets.

Yes the crowd figures went down but, as Sticker Rub pointed out, the paying crowd went up significantly and because they were there to have a good day out the merchandise/ food sales also increased.

I think Racing59 has a valid point. Some sort of loyalty scheme is a good one 'buy four get one free' type of offer but it has to be easy to administer.

On the bands front I had a plan for 2006 to have local bands at Rockingham with each event promoting bands from a particular town / city backed by the local paper. The winners from each event went through to the final at the end of the season. This way you got local publicity through the local media for each event - this is how we worked it for the Oct 2005 meeting (Calsberg Band Festival).

This could work again but remember you have the costs of a decent stage, sound system and lighting for each event. While it doesn't have to be to the same standard as Blue or The Darkness the stage still costs money to put up and equip.

Jeff

[pickup]

Do us racers do it to entertain the spectators - I do - well that's my intention. If I didn't have that intention, I wouldn't have built my mad crazy Astra Belmont Thundersaloon, nor would I have been trying ever so hard to get into the SCSA. Now I have my own car.... be prepared for some antics!!

WE need YOU more than you need us!!! That's my belief.



Rob.

Absolutely spot on, someone who echos my sentiments. Maybe there is hope for the series with people with this attitude competeing.
I'm sure even with these ideas racing 59 will still be a tough competitor who is trying to win, but also appreciates the importance of entertaing the paying spectator and encouraging them to return and bring some friends.
I also remember watching wheels on a saturday afternoon and still have some videos of the hot rod world final oh happy days.
Even putting forward ideas to improve attendance/ticket sales is a very possitive step towards promoting the series, roll on 2007.
The pickuptrucks have their pre-season meeting in January so we'll see what news comes from this!

[Ramone]

Thought it might be a good time to resurrect this thread. Seems as if my crystal ball wasn't all that far off.........

[bravheart]

[quote="Ramone"]Thought it might be a good time to resurrect this thread.


Maybe it would be better to delete this thread! then ramone might get back under the stone he came from! Please

[Gasman#99]

I will second that.

[Nick Brad]

Thought it might be a good time to resurrect this thread. Seems as if my crystal ball wasn't all that far off.........

Hang on, first of all, your crystal ball seemed to be a bit vague as to what would supposedly happen so actually, if we were a roaring success right now with capacity crowds at every event, you could still claim that your crystal ball "wasn't all that far off.........".
If you're suggesting that the series has died or is pretty much dead, then rather than take Duncan's suggestion, (bravheart,) take a good look around and you may just realise that the series has consistenly been growing since 2006 and will continue to do so with Duane and co at the helm.

[JovialJooles]

Why are we resurrecting these old threads?

I'm locking this one.