Pirelli

[Sonic]

I thought we should have a place to discuss those black round things that go under the car as 2011's victors may owe their success to their ability to adapt to the new rubber.

So far the news seems to be as expected; the Pirelli's degrade quickly and then plateaux. IMHO this is GREAT! Alonso was talking a one lap banzi window and then a 2 second drop off, whilst Lewis has indicated with the tyres as they stand a one stop race is out of the question. Bring it on baby.

[Tazio]

Do they have every compound that P's is going to bring into all races?
I respect the Boss's opinion but until he uses them in the 2011 challenger he really can't speak from a position of authority. Other than Fred have there been other comments about the degradation characteristics of the P's?
Plus we all know what a liar Fred and Ferrari are. Damn cheats they are.
For all we know Fred could pit on lap one ,and go the entire race distance while performing card tricks and other displays of his expertise in magic tricks.
The freakin’ guy can probably engage every button on the steering wheel with telepathy :vader:

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRN74_oQ9tBXOhh6UzH8QieZpjR36Hqy LBzMq8ITJYClOzUgQfCqg

[SGWilko]

The trick with the new tyres is going to be optimising contact patch, on order to ensure that wear is even across the whole tyre, minimise graining and even out the heat build-up in order not to blister the tyre.

If the trend appears to be 1 lap of good performance followed by a significant drop off, then you need a car that can swiftly get the tyre to temp, but that does not then work it too hard - and thus nurture the performance over the life of the tyre. This will be key in qualifying.

Then you will have a process of managing the degradation. The one good aspect of the Pirelli trait, is that a guy that pits for new tyres potentially only has one lap of benefit from better performance before the anticipated drop off.

Now, if you can design your car to minimise degradation of the tyre, and thus optimise its performance in the 'drop off' period, you can potentially pit later, having relied on your ability to maximise the one lap qualifying performance (assuming you start on the front row that is).

Here is where I see McLaren as the wise team, learning about the tyres on a proven platform, with data that can then be fed to the suspension dept for any adjustments that might be deemed necessary for the 2011 car. These adjustments wont transfer overnight, but they will be able to compare the performance as testing progresses.

I could just be talking b0ll0cks mind.... :p

[Sonic]

I could just be talking b0ll0cks mind.... :p

ROFL! :D

Personally I think it's witchcraft.

[AndyL]

The only thing I know about these new tyres is that I don't like how the Pirelli logo is printed on them square, rather than curved with the shape of the wheel!

[SGWilko]

The only thing I know about these new tyres is that I don't like how the Pirelli logo is printed on them square, rather than curved with the shape of the wheel!

You mean you want this;

http://www.autosport.com/gallery/photo.php/id/13266990

not this;

http://www.autosport.com/gallery/photo.php/id/13266986

Now, why would you have differently badged tyres on either side of the car....??????

[jens]

I think this was one of the reasons, why Red Bull had such a massive advantage in several qualifying sessions in 2010 - they were the only ones, who managed to figure out, how to warm those massively hard Bridgestone tyres quickly up. Those 1-second dominations seemed rather unusual in modern high competitive F1, but for 2011 they may be gone.

Anyway, I wouldn't mind more 2010 Montreal type of races with lots of fun with tyres. :) Also 2009 Australian GP as we may see a repeat of something similar again this year. I remember also in 1997 teams had lot of trouble with tyres on several circuits.

[AndyL]

You mean you want this;

http://www.autosport.com/gallery/photo.php/id/13266990

not this;

http://www.autosport.com/gallery/photo.php/id/13266986

Now, why would you have differently badged tyres on either side of the car....??????

Looks like the first one's a CG rendering - Renault's artists did it how it ought to look!

[wedge]

I think this was one of the reasons, why Red Bull had such a massive advantage in several qualifying sessions in 2010 - they were the only ones, who managed to figure out, how to warm those massively hard Bridgestone tyres quickly up. Those 1-second dominations seemed rather unusual in modern high competitive F1, but for 2011 they may be gone.

Anyway, I wouldn't mind more 2010 Montreal type of races with lots of fun with tyres. :) Also 2009 Australian GP as we may see a repeat of something similar again this year. I remember also in 1997 teams had lot of trouble with tyres on several circuits.

RBR6 was just simply supremely quick. Most likely due to aero than tyres eg. EBD. Also there were the odd races in the first of the year where tyre degradation was abnormally high eg. Montreal and China.

McLaren's were tricky to to set up from rake (higher rear ride height than front) and finding the sweet spot. The stiff front end didn't particularly help with Button's ignoramus driving style in quali conditions .

In 1997 Goodyear were shown up by bringing soft tyres that blistered easily in a tyre war with Bridgestone.

[SGWilko]

RBR6 was just simply supremely quick. Most likely due to aero than tyres eg. EBD.

Indeed. RBR had the three tests (they missed the first) to sort out their exhaust configuration relative to the diffuser, whilst hiding what they were doing with painted on exhausts....

Of course, McLaren's F duct took away a lot of attention.......

[schmenke]

... tyre war ...

Sigh... I miss those days... :mark:

[Retro Formula 1]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/89704

Tyres are going to decide this championship. Not the car, or the engine but how it manages the tyres.

Should be an interesting year.

[ioan]

What is really funny is how Pirelli's tires aren't only softer, with higher wear ratio, but also slower than last years softest Bridgestones!

[SGWilko]

What is really funny is how Pirelli's tires aren't only softer, with higher wear ratio, but also slower than last years softest Bridgestones!

I don't think they've learned anything from their previous humiliation in F1.........

[ioan]

I don't think they've learned anything from their previous humiliation in F1.........

That's obvious, as they are proving that they know little about how to make a real competition tire.

[ArrowsFA1]

That's obvious, as they are proving that they know little about how to make a real competition tire.
Errrrr...we haven't seen them race yet. Let's wait and see :)

[Bagwan]

What is really funny is how Pirelli's tires aren't only softer, with higher wear ratio, but also slower than last years softest Bridgestones!

Why is it funny ?

They have been asked to produce tires that are difficult to deal with .
They did .

We are looking at a season that will start to favour those who treat the tires with care .
There will be strategies that go from two stops to four .

There will be rabbits who pit early , and often , and tortoises that go long , and seek to remain in touch with fewer stops .

You see , my friend , they are not competing . They are making a tire for competition .
It needs to be difficult .
I don't want to see a tire that can last a whole race .

It's not a tire race .
It's a car race .

Tire competition gave us nothing but a hobble for those with the slower tire .
Now , it becomes a car race again , with everyone in the same boat(car) .

[Retro Formula 1]

Why is it funny ?

They have been asked to produce tires that are difficult to deal with .
They did .

We are looking at a season that will start to favour those who treat the tires with care .
There will be strategies that go from two stops to four .

There will be rabbits who pit early , and often , and tortoises that go long , and seek to remain in touch with fewer stops .

You see , my friend , they are not competing . They are making a tire for competition .
It needs to be difficult .
I don't want to see a tire that can last a whole race .

It's not a tire race .
It's a car race .

Tire competition gave us nothing but a hobble for those with the slower tire .
Now , it becomes a car race again , with everyone in the same boat(car) .


+1

You cannot slag off the manufacturer for developing a tyre they were asked to.

This tyre is not a reflection on how competitive Pirelli can make a tyre but on how they can produce a tyre to set specifics. This they seem to have accomplished.

[SGWilko]

developing a tyre they were asked to.

That, in my book, is the perfect smokescreen from which Pirelli will conveniently hide behind. As their previous attempt to conquer F1 showed, their tyres are too soft and too fragile.

[SGWilko]

It's not a tire race .

If fear it will be; who's tyre goes bang first.

What Pirelli ought to have done is thus;

Construct a tyre that can last the entire race, but the performance of which tails off with every lap - but not a tyre that throws up marbles, or degrades and blisters because it is too soft.

Then, you get the tyre sympathisers who can make a longer stint work, and the racers who can live with the extra stop.

Not this lame excuse of "well, the tyres may be falling apart round our ears, but that's what we were told to do' nonsense.

[wedge]

What is really funny is how Pirelli's tires aren't only softer, with higher wear ratio, but also slower than last years softest Bridgestones!

You're completely missing the point.

Consistent don't necessarily make good races. The whole palaver is band aid. The blame shouldn't be pointed at Pirelli but rather the FIA for the tyre regs and insisting using both compounds in the race.

[SGWilko]

You're completely missing the point.

Consistent don't necessarily make good races. The whole palaver is band aid. The blame shouldn't be pointed at Pirelli but rather the FIA for the tyre regs and insisting using both compounds in the race.

Maglev - that's your answer. Dispence with tyres completely, then Pirelli can concentrate on building the conveyor belts for supermarket checkouts and baggage reclaim.

[Bagwan]

If fear it will be; who's tyre goes bang first.

What Pirelli ought to have done is thus;

Construct a tyre that can last the entire race, but the performance of which tails off with every lap - but not a tyre that throws up marbles, or degrades and blisters because it is too soft.

Then, you get the tyre sympathisers who can make a longer stint work, and the racers who can live with the extra stop.

Not this lame excuse of "well, the tyres may be falling apart round our ears, but that's what we were told to do' nonsense.

Essentially , the difference is that you prefer a one or no stop race , and I would prefer a race that is a two or three stops .

The tires are the only real outside influence that the FIA can have on the cars , as it is the only real standard equipment .
The are the part that touches the asphalt , and one of the mandates , along with improving overtaking , is to slow them down .
A constantly improving tire , due to competition , actually hurts the competition , if one company gets a significant edge .
With a single make , in Pirelli , they have found a company that was willing to take some stick for making a tire that is , indeed , inferior to the predecessor , until the race fan realizes the action and strategy that will need to be employed to get to the top step .

I think everyone is going to quickly forget how "crappy" these tire are when the action starts , or , at least praise thier "crappyness" for the inspired strategies and heroic drives we may see as a result .



Of course , with these stupid moveable wings and the restrictive regs regarding them , we're more likely to be involved in talk about accidents and protests .

[SGWilko]

Essentially , the difference is that you prefer a one or no stop race , and I would prefer a race that is a two or three stops .

Not really. I enjoy the strategy element more now that re-fuelling is dispensed with. Even the kindest driver on his tyres will need to make at least one stop just to stay in the game (and would anyway due to the compound use rule), whereas the racer can essentially chew up his tyres for performance but take the hit of the extra stop(s).

I think Pirelli were the wrong choice, and this is borne out by their degrading tyres. Michelin, who have a proven track record across the entire spectrum of motorsports, were to use this oppotunity to develop their economy range of tyres - with specific relevance to road car transference. This is something Michelin have pioneered, which I personally think is a great idea. Do you know anyone who wants to go to Kwik Fit and buy some tyres that'll shred half way up the Old Kent Road?????

[Bagwan]

Not really. I enjoy the strategy element more now that re-fuelling is dispensed with. Even the kindest driver on his tyres will need to make at least one stop just to stay in the game (and would anyway due to the compound use rule), whereas the racer can essentially chew up his tyres for performance but take the hit of the extra stop(s).

I think Pirelli were the wrong choice, and this is borne out by their degrading tyres. Michelin, who have a proven track record across the entire spectrum of motorsports, were to use this oppotunity to develop their economy range of tyres - with specific relevance to road car transference. This is something Michelin have pioneered, which I personally think is a great idea. Do you know anyone who wants to go to Kwik Fit and buy some tyres that'll shred half way up the Old Kent Road?????

You state that you like a range between one and three stops .
I like that , too , and believe , as you seem to , that it is what will happen .
So , why hate on Pirelli when it seems they may give you what you want ?

"Degrading tyres" are what they were asked for on the track .

It is not what they are asked for on the road , so your second paragraph seems completely irrelevent .

[ioan]

You state that you like a range between one and three stops .
I like that , too , and believe , as you seem to , that it is what will happen .
So , why hate on Pirelli when it seems they may give you what you want ?

"Degrading tyres" are what they were asked for on the track .

It is not what they are asked for on the road , so your second paragraph seems completely irrelevent .

I doubt we will see 1 stop races given the degradation rate of the Pirelli tires. More like 3 or more stops.

[ioan]

You're completely missing the point.

Consistent don't necessarily make good races. The whole palaver is band aid. The blame shouldn't be pointed at Pirelli but rather the FIA for the tyre regs and insisting using both compounds in the race.

So now is the FIA's fault that Pirelli make chewing gum consistency tires?
The rules were the same last year and Bridgestone did great.

Most of us already knew what to expect from Pirelli, they never suprprize when it come to producing so so competition tires.

And BTW, the point that I am missing is about having the tires be the decisive factor in F1 racing?!
No thanks.

[Bagwan]

I doubt we will see 1 stop races given the degradation rate of the Pirelli tires. More like 3 or more stops.

We saw Michael win a four stopper once , and it was exciting , as I recall .

[Bagwan]

So now is the FIA's fault that Pirelli make chewing gum consistency tires?
The rules were the same last year and Bridgestone did great.

Most of us already knew what to expect from Pirelli, they never suprprize when it come to producing so so competition tires.

And BTW, the point that I am missing is about having the tires be the decisive factor in F1 racing?!
No thanks.

It's how you deal with the challenge of tire wear that will determine the championship , not the tires , themselves .
That's about car and driver . The challenge is the same for all .

They are aware that they are producing too many marbles right now , and they will adjust accordingly , before the season begins .

But , then teams will still complain , as they should , until they find how to take advantage , and then they will be silent .

[Retro Formula 1]

So now is the FIA's fault that Pirelli make chewing gum consistency tires?
The rules were the same last year and Bridgestone did great.


Didn't you know about the Tender process?

Oh well, lets just slag them off anyway :)

[donKey jote]

+1

You cannot slag off the manufacturer for developing a tyre ...

no, but you can slag them off for being italian, like ferrari and domenicalli and montemezolo eh ioan? :wave: :p

[DexDexter]

To me Pirelli are doing what Bernie & Co want: inconsistent tires which will make the races more exciting, articifial or not....

[ioan]

no, but you can slag them off for being italian, like ferrari and domenicalli and montemezolo eh ioan? :wave: :p

I have to admit that I lost you there, unless you imply that Italians usually make crappy products.

[Big Ben]

Great place for Ioan to pass prejudice and spiteful opinions as absolute truth. Everyone was unsatisfied Bridgestone produced tyres that could last an entire race and now Pirelli does the opposite thing and some go nuts because they produce crappy tyres... and the first race is still weeks away. Why would anyone even care? All the teams use the same tyre.

[ioan]

Great place for Ioan to pass prejudice and spiteful opinions as absolute truth. Everyone was unsatisfied Bridgestone produced tyres that could last an entire race and now Pirelli does the opposite thing and some go nuts because they produce crappy tyres... and the first race is still weeks away. Why would anyone even care? All the teams use the same tyre.

Great place for eu to pass prejudice and spiteful opinions about fellow forum members!
Get yourself a mirror! :rolleyes:

[Big Ben]

Great place for eu to pass prejudice and spiteful opinions about fellow forum members!
Get yourself a mirror! :rolleyes:

Yeah, right! That's exactly how it is. It has nothing to do with the fact that you slam Pirelli for producing the tyre they were asked to.... because they are Italians. :rolleyes: indeed

[Tazio]

To me Pirelli are doing what Bernie & Co want: inconsistent tires which will make the races more exciting, articifial or not....

That is exactly how I see it. It's the one gimmick Bernie slid through under the radar. If Perelli wanted to produce the same compounds that the "stones" did last year it would be a hell of a lot easier than what Bernie has asked them to do this season. Plus I have not heard a single team complaining about blisters and graining
:s ailor: Then again they may wear out too fast for those problems.

[DexDexter]

That is exactly how I see it. It's the one gimmick Bernie slid through under the radar. If Perelli wanted to produce the same compounds that the "stones" did last year it would be a hell of a lot easier than what Bernie has asked them to do this season. Plus I have not heard a single team complaining about blisters and graining
:s ailor: Then again they may wear out too fast for those problems.

I knew people would start complaining about the tire immediately. I don't get it, everybody knew that this was going to happen, it was planned, and now they're complaining about it. It's pretty difficult to please people, isn't it?

[Tazio]

I knew people would start complaining about the tire immediately. I don't get it, everybody knew that this was going to happen, it was planned, and now they're complaining about it. It's pretty difficult to please people, isn't it?
Amen Brother!!! :up:

[SGWilko]

We saw Michael win a four stopper once , and it was exciting , as I recall .

re-fuelling was the artificial element here - and admittedly a sterling drive from Mike.

[ioan]

re-fuelling was the artificial element here - and admittedly a sterling drive from Mike.

Exactly!
Also the Pirelli tires have a drop of in performance that would not allow qualifying stints of 16 laps, maximum 2 laps if lucky!

[Mark]

Back in the day it wasn't artificial as you couldn't make a tyre that would maintain top performance over a GP distance, now you pretty much can.

[SGWilko]

It is not what they are asked for on the road , so your second paragraph seems completely irrelevent .

To be credible in todays ultra sensitive and scrutinised society, there needs to be some form of relevance and transference for the benefit of such a society.

We now have a genuine green direction with the upcoming 2013 regs, KERS and the relevance of such for hybrids and electric vehicles. Why overlook the biggest single element that can affect performance and its relevance to the 'real world' - tyres?

[SGWilko]

That is exactly how I see it. It's the one gimmick Bernie slid through under the radar. If Perelli wanted to produce the same compounds that the "stones" did last year it would be a hell of a lot easier than what Bernie has asked them to do this season. Plus I have not heard a single team complaining about blisters and graining
:s ailor: Then again they may wear out too fast for those problems.

Errrrrrr, teams wont complain as the Pirelli deal was, conveniently, the cheapest for the teams. Rarely, in my experience, does the cheapest equal the best.

[Big Ben]

re-fuelling was the artificial element here - and admittedly a sterling drive from Mike.

Why was it artificial? Was re-fueling imposed by the rules?

[Bagwan]

From FOTA chair Whitmarsh :
"Bridgestone were always a great partner, but from my position at FOTA I have heard several times in recent years pressure for tyres with more risk," he added. "But now we publicly criticise the degradation of these tyres. The job of tyre supplier is a thankless one, as the higher wear is a feature that was requested to make the show better."

[ioan]

Right now the tire wear isn't only higher it is extreme.

[Big Ben]

Right now the tire wear isn't only higher it is extreme.

:laugh:

Don't mind them buddy. They quote nobodies like Withmarsh because there are bitter and desperate. They just don't get it's not high but extreme. I am however relieved it's not extremer or the extremest. What would we have done then?

[Tazio]

Errrrrrr, teams wont complain as the Pirelli deal was, conveniently, the cheapest for the teams. Rarely, in my experience, does the cheapest equal the best.
I think the teams if consulted they would be more discriminate. The whole Circus is bul**** and smoke and mirrors. If the promoters took a reasonable cut say 15% not only would the teams take a deeper interest, they would get the sport/competition right. Then again what is the fun if the best team gets it right? Every time a team dominates for 3 or4 years Bernie starts screaming the sky is falling we have to change everything for some bull **** reason. But back on topic if Pirelli produces the type of garbage that it appears they may that is Bernie fault

[Bagwan]

:laugh:

Don't mind them buddy. They quote nobodies like Withmarsh because there are bitter and desperate. They just don't get it's not high but extreme. I am however relieved it's not extremer or the extremest. What would we have done then?

I quoted Whitmarsh , as it is rather relevent to have an opinion from FOTA .

I have seen the "super-marble" picture circulated , and I understand there is even some talk of it even being dangerous for those in the stands and marshalling as these marbles are very large and at F1 speeds are going long distances , not just staying on the track surface , creating traction issues .

Manufacturing a tire to last a finite distance is always going to be harder than making it last as long as possible .
They need only to find that balance , and I am confident they will .

By the way , did I sound too bitter or desperate in this post ?

[jens]

Right now the tire wear isn't only higher it is extreme.

Tyre wear was quite extreme in Canada '10 and Australia '09 too. But those were rare occasions. Now Pirelli had to produce tyres, which degrade faster on every circuit, not just on some. I don't think the season is going to be as bad as the testing has suggested (also higher track temperatures during the season play a role). It could be a 2-stop race on some circuits.

As for being slower in laptimes than Bridgestone in '10 - F1 is constantly aiming to reduce speeds. Bridgestone made very hard tyres, which also kept the reducing laptimes under control.

[CLF66]

we're yet to see the impact of the Pirelli tyres in race conditions - when theres a direct comparison (i.e. after Australia) we'll have a much better idea.

IMO there should be more than one tyre manufacturer in the sport - clever choices and an element of difference between the cars spices things up a little!

[steveaki13]

we're yet to see the impact of the Pirelli tyres in race conditions - when theres a direct comparison (i.e. after Australia) we'll have a much better idea.

IMO there should be more than one tyre manufacturer in the sport - clever choices and an element of difference between the cars spices things up a little!

Spot on I couldn't agree more.

[Bagwan]

IMO there should be more than one tyre manufacturer in the sport - clever choices and an element of difference between the cars spices things up a little!
Not spot on .
Couldn't agree less .

When we had two manufacturers , you had one group of teams with an advantage not bourne out of thier own doing , but due to the tires only .
To me , that always sucked .

If you had the right skins , you beat your neighbour .

Sorry , Charlie , you'll have to beat him on merit now .
And he'll have to do the same .

[Mia 01]

I agree.

It will be interesting to se the fight between Jenson and Lewis now.

[ioan]

There:

http://pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=43040

[donKey jote]

mmm... rubber cake ! :facelick: :p

[SGWilko]

mmm... rubber cake ! :facelick: :p

What a sorry state those tyres really are in. Pirelli to modern day F1 is like Eddy the Eagle to Ski Jumping.... Plucky but as good as useless.

[Mark]

Looks like they went a bit far on the degradation issue. This is why we have testing, to get these things right. Blaming it on Pirelli is missing the issue entirely.

[Bagwan]

Fundamental irony #1 :
Ask for a tire that degrades and complain when it does .
More fundamental irony#2 :
Car makes tire degrade , and tire is blamed .
Even more fundamental irony #3 :
It easy to press a bunch of warm rubber from F1 tires together into a fist-sized ball to illustrate the point that they would be dangerous if they were that size . I've pressed a ball together , myself , only it was Bridgestone and Michelin rubber , not Pirelli .
And , it wasn't that big , as I wasn't trying to back up a controversial point in order print lines .

[ioan]

Even more fundamental irony #3 :
It easy to press a bunch of warm rubber from F1 tires together into a fist-sized ball to illustrate the point that they would be dangerous if they were that size . I've pressed a ball together , myself , only it was Bridgestone and Michelin rubber , not Pirelli .
And , it wasn't that big , as I wasn't trying to back up a controversial point in order print lines .

Unfounded accusation. Unless you have proof for it.

[Retro Formula 1]

Unfounded accusation. Unless you have proof for it.

Prove they didn't.

The whole article is merely opinion apart from a couple of quotes totally irrelevant to the article.

[Tazio]

Unfounded accusation. Unless you have proof for it.

All I can say at this point is whoever finds the trick of how to make these designating tires last a reasonable amount of time will walk off with the championship, depending on how long it takes the other teams to copy them.
Even in the years of refueling super soft’s were still good for about fifteen laps. Without going off at the rate these appear to be.

[ioan]

Prove they didn't.

The whole article is merely opinion apart from a couple of quotes totally irrelevant to the article.

AFAIK the presumption of innocence primes over unfounded accusation that need to be proved first! At least in the civilized part of the world! :)

[ioan]

All I can say at this point is whoever finds the trick of how to make these designating tires last a reasonable amount of time will walk off with the championship, depending on how long it takes the other teams to copy them.
Even in the years of refueling super soft’s were still good for about fifteen laps. Without going off at the rate these appear to be.

Fully agree!
The chewing gum Pirelli came to the game is laughable.

[Bagwan]

Unfounded accusation. Unless you have proof for it.

I'm not sure you read my post too carefully .

I made no accusation .
I simply stated a fact .

It is easy to create a ball of that rubber . I've done it , myself .

Sure , I implied that the press could use such a ploy , but I never said they did .
It would work well to do so , though , wouldn't it ?

The site you quoted doesn't have any reputation for sensationalizing stories , do they ?

I'm also wondering why all the rest of the sites haven't carried that same photo .
At least , I haven't seen it anywhere else .

I would also have expected to have seen this elsewhere as well , because of the safety issue stated , due to the size of the pictured "super-marble" .
You'd have thought they'd be all over that , with insurance of fan safety pushing fans back farther at every new track and old .

I don't know , man .
It seems to me that most of the complaints have been about normal for guys going from the perfect "last the race" tire , to one mandated to be far less than perfect .
And , that is consistent with what Whitmarsh , head of FOTA said .

And , you know , the Macs are seemingly pretty slow so far .
That seems to be consistent with the old story of the tortoise and the hare .
Could this be Whitmarsh's strategy , and another reason for his defence of Pirelli ?

Anything can happen , and it probably will .


In the end , even if that pictorial evidence is to be believed , these are the issues which you hope to solve during this kind of running , and there is still time to correct them .

[SGWilko]

My understanding of 'marbles' is that they are the little pieces of rubber that scrub off the tyre due to abbrasion/friction i.e. due to cornering and breaking/decelerating.

The fact that chunks of Pirelli have been hurled off the tyre down the straights and onto the pit complex roof suggests tyres that, quite frankly, are so fragile, that they present a potential hazard to spectators.

In fact, as the Pitpass story suggests, the tyre rubber is so soft, it is chunking off the tyre, sticking to the chassis, building up to a size that creates enough drag to dislodge it and deposit it somewhere on the circuit.

I think there are some very nervous folk at Pirelli right now, especially as they are now trying to get support to have FP1 turned into a tyre test day.

It's not looking good, not good at all.

[ioan]

I'm not sure you read my post too carefully .

I made no accusation .
I simply stated a fact .

It is easy to create a ball of that rubber . I've done it , myself .

Sure , I implied that the press could use such a ploy , but I never said they did .

Sure, then you can tell us what was the idea behind implying it if not that of accusing them of doing it?
Just asking.

[ioan]

My understanding of 'marbles' is that they are the little pieces of rubber that scrub off the tyre due to abbrasion/friction i.e. due to cornering and breaking/decelerating.

The fact that chunks of Pirelli have been hurled off the tyre down the straights and onto the pit complex roof suggests tyres that, quite frankly, are so fragile, that they present a potential hazard to spectators.

In fact, as the Pitpass story suggests, the tyre rubber is so soft, it is chunking off the tyre, sticking to the chassis, building up to a size that creates enough drag to dislodge it and deposit it somewhere on the circuit.

I think there are some very nervous folk at Pirelli right now, especially as they are now trying to get support to have FP1 turned into a tyre test day.

It's not looking good, not good at all.

Exactly!
Pirelli thought the war was won the day they have got the contract. They tried to dismiss the crappy consistency of their tires by saying that this is what they were ask to produce. The problem is that drivers were very vocal against their product, and even though teams are keeping their opinions more moderate they are unhappy and will not tolerate this crap for long.
Time for Pirelli to do their homework and if needed steal some engineers from Michelin or Bridgestone to get the work done properly!
Being the sole F1 supplier is great as long as you are doing a great work, like Bridgestone did, however the backlash is huge if things go wrong, as Michelin found out in 2005!

[Tazio]

Lewis Hamilton has warned the new Pirelli tyres will make the cars slower in 2011.>

I didn't think I was pushing very hard - and the tyres were finished after nine laps, down to the canvas. :eek:


This is not good. The "Circus" could turn into a "Freak-Show" this season. This is not even taking into consideration the likely abuse the tires will take trying to gain positions at the start when the field is tighter and sudden braking (God forbid locking) and acceleration is most likely(and important). Pirelli needs to get the formula right, and pronto.

http://en.espnf1.com/mclaren/motorsport/story/42407.html?CMP=OTC-RSS

[slorydn1]

I don't know what to say. All I can add to this is that the Rolex Grand Am Series used Pirelli's exclusively the last several years and the racing was great, and tire failures in and of themselves were a relative non issue. Several 24 hour races at Daytona, and other than cut tires from running over debris or contact with another car I really don't remember any major tire failures the last several years. I don't remember marbles and graining being a big deal either (like it was this weekend at Homestead-Miami with the Continental tires that are being used now-one team had a their race done in by a huge marble about the size of a fist taking out their radiator!!!!) :eek:
I really don't remember that happening with Pirelli. Granted the loads aren't as great as with an F1 car either. I say give them a chance, let's see how it plays out before we hang 'em out to dry.

[Bagwan]

Sure, then you can tell us what was the idea behind implying it if not that of accusing them of doing it?
Just asking.

I think the rest of my post explains that .

"In 2007 and 2008, the teams were so quick and pushing each other so fast at the front. They've now slowed down the cars a little, it's maybe a more even playing field." -Lewis Hamilton .

I think this plays right along with the McLaren tortoise gambit .
Lewis , right on cue , whines very specifically about how many laps he can go , giving the opposition some targets .
He states that driving differently , a little slower , can get you from only nine laps , to fifteen .

Given that his boss just said that nobody should be complaining about the tires , being they are what they asked for , it seems to me there's a tortoise in the race .

[Bagwan]

Breaking news :
Bernie Ecclestone , F1 supremo , recently chided for his idea regarding sprinklers being added at F1 tracks to "spice up" the action , has now come out with a new idea , prompted by a report from a recent Pitpass article .
At a news conference , poolside , he spoke to reporters while sipping on a cocktail , saying :
"You've seen the picture , haven't you ? We've now asked Pirelli for a tire that can make even larger super-duper marbles , if possible .
Adding chicanes has gotten expensive for the tracks , and I'm very sympathetic to thier plight , so this idea is for them .
The RRC , or Random Rubber Chicane , with be distributed mainly by the guys at the front of the pack , making that first lap even more interesting , especially for backmarkers . I can't wait ."

[SGWilko]

The RRC , or Random Rubber Chicane

That was tried back in '94.........

[steveaki13]

That was tried back in '94.........

Thats right they installed one at Barcelona didn't they, and Canada and Belgium.

They were terrible, but it was understandable after the events of that year at Imola and Monaco.

[Malbec]

we're yet to see the impact of the Pirelli tyres in race conditions - when theres a direct comparison (i.e. after Australia) we'll have a much better idea.

Exactly. The tires are being tested in winter temperatures so their current performance will not be indicative of their performance in warmer temperatures. They will wear less and therefore last longer in the races. This time last year teams were predicting two or three pitstops at each race because thats how long the bridgestones lasted during winter testing too. While the Pirellis won't last as long as the Bridgestones by design I don't think we'll have a disaster either.

[Sleeper]

From what I've read from more knowledgeable sources than Pitpass, what we're seeing in testing is a combination of cold weather and Pirillis very stiff construction leading to serious degredation. What none of you has mentioned so far is that the tyres arent being run in the conditions they were designed for. it should also be pointed out that Pirelli dont have data of their own to work with so they've had to go conservative on the construction to start with, and they do maintain the right to make changes mid season if it proves that they've gone to far. Everything else in this thread is speculation and hot air.

[mstillhere]

I don't know what to say. All I can add to this is that the Rolex Grand Am Series used Pirelli's exclusively the last several years and the racing was great, and tire failures in and of themselves were a relative non issue. Several 24 hour races at Daytona, and other than cut tires from running over debris or contact with another car I really don't remember any major tire failures the last several years. I don't remember marbles and graining being a big deal either (like it was this weekend at Homestead-Miami with the Continental tires that are being used now-one team had a their race done in by a huge marble about the size of a fist taking out their radiator!!!!) :eek:
I really don't remember that happening with Pirelli. Granted the loads aren't as great as with an F1 car either. I say give them a chance, let's see how it plays out before we hang 'em out to dry.

I agree. Besides the fact that Pirelli has stated several times that the tire the came up with is exactly what the FIA have requested. The F1 show will be enhanced by the different teams constantly pitting in to get new set of tires.

An other thing Pirelli has said, and I dont know if I should beleive it, is that with higher Summer temperatures the tires will last much longer than they are right now. So, we only have to wait and see.

Final point. With the constant FIA interest in making F1 more affordable, we are supposed to get a better show while the F1 cars are slowing down (as LH said today). To make the show more interesting, besides the artificial rain I would add some fires in a couple of corners. Moving obstacles on the track not to mention spears thrown at the cars.

Kidding aside, I say let the big constructors have 3 cars per team so that money will not be an issue anymore so that we can see again the fastest car winning not the one who made their tires last longer.

[Mark]

It's going to be a problem for Pirelli as they were given a specification by the FIA as to how the tyres will be, but all year they are going to get tonnes of flak about their tyres running out too quickly. Or them blamed for <favourite driver> losing the race!

[Dave B]

The FIA have annouced that at some events, teams will be provided with "evaluation tyres" for Friday practice, to allow Pirelli some bonus testing:


At certain events, one additional specification of dry weather tyre may be made available to all teams for evaluation purposes. Teams will be informed about such an additional specification at least one week before the start of the relevant event. Two sets of these tyres will be allocated to each driver for use during P1 and P2, and any such tyres must be returned to the tyre supplier before the start of P3.

One additional set of ‘prime’ specification tyres may be made available to all drivers. Teams will be informed about such an additional set at least one week before the start of the relevant event. In this instance, the additional set will be available for use during P1 and P2. One set of ‘prime’ tyres must then be returned to the tyre supplier after P1, and two further sets of ‘prime’ and one set of ‘option’ specification tyres returned before the start of P3.

Fairy nuff. Makes Fridays a bit more interesting :)

[wedge]

From what I've read from more knowledgeable sources than Pitpass, what we're seeing in testing is a combination of cold weather and Pirillis very stiff construction leading to serious degredation. What none of you has mentioned so far is that the tyres arent being run in the conditions they were designed for. it should also be pointed out that Pirelli dont have data of their own to work with so they've had to go conservative on the construction to start with, and they do maintain the right to make changes mid season if it proves that they've gone to far. Everything else in this thread is speculation and hot air.

Pirelli isn't very stiff. It's construction is softer than Bridgestones. Massa can lean more from the outside tyres when cornering.

[Bagwan]

Paul Hembrey -Pirelli
“We have to communicate very clearly our priorities and objectives in Formula 1, which is to fulfil the brief handed to us by FOM and FOTA to promote overtaking,”
“Because of that we have constructed a tyre that is designed to last for about 100 kilometres (62 miles), which should lead to two pit-stops per race on average. Naturally, that doesn’t mean that we’re not capable of building a tyre that will last a whole race or even five or six races – in fact, it would be considerably easier to do so."
“Instead, we want to do something to help the show a bit, but we need to make it clear that the wear characteristics of these F1 tyres are completely different to those of our road car tyres because they are built to do two entirely different jobs. It’s like comparing mozzarella cheese to parmesan and we are very clear about this.”

[SGWilko]

Paul Hembrey -Pirelli
“We have to communicate very clearly our priorities and objectives in Formula 1, which is to fulfil the brief handed to us by FOM and FOTA to promote overtaking,”
“Because of that we have constructed a tyre that is designed to last for about 100 kilometres (62 miles), which should lead to two pit-stops per race on average. Naturally, that doesn’t mean that we’re not capable of building a tyre that will last a whole race or even five or six races – in fact, it would be considerably easier to do so."
“Instead, we want to do something to help the show a bit, but we need to make it clear that the wear characteristics of these F1 tyres are completely different to those of our road car tyres because they are built to do two entirely different jobs. It’s like comparing mozzarella cheese to parmesan and we are very clear about this.”

So, no relevance or transference whatsover to the 'real motoring world' then....

[Bagwan]

So, no relevance or transference whatsover to the 'real motoring world' then....

Best transfer I can find in it would be to say that it will confirm one extreme end of the tailoring to specific conditions scale , not that it would be of much use on the road anyway .
But then , a tire that would run longer , like the Bridgestones or Michelins from years past weren't really running all that much farther , maybe double the mileage .
And , they were producing marbles as well , especially in the thick of the tire war .

There's not much difference in the end , and no F1 tire has been appropriate in any way for being a road tire for a long , long time .

[MrJan]

Aren't Pirelli road tyres really soft anyway (in general), hence why they're so good. If you want something that's going miles then get something cheap like Nankang ditch-finders.

[Mark]

Paul Hembrey -Pirelli
“We have to communicate very clearly our priorities and objectives in Formula 1, which is to fulfil the brief handed to us by FOM and FOTA to promote overtaking,”
“Because of that we have constructed a tyre that is designed to last for about 100 kilometres (62 miles), which should lead to two pit-stops per race on average. Naturally, that doesn’t mean that we’re not capable of building a tyre that will last a whole race or even five or six races – in fact, it would be considerably easier to do so."
“Instead, we want to do something to help the show a bit, but we need to make it clear that the wear characteristics of these F1 tyres are completely different to those of our road car tyres because they are built to do two entirely different jobs. It’s like comparing mozzarella cheese to parmesan and we are very clear about this.”

Thanks for that. Unfortunately it won't stop the cries of "Pirelli tyres are rubbish!"

[Mark]

Aren't Pirelli road tyres really soft anyway (in general), hence why they're so good. If you want something that's going miles then get something cheap like Nankang ditch-finders.

Depends which ones you get, when I first got my Fiesta I got Pirelli Zero Nero's on it, and they gave very good grip, but were indeed quite soft so wore out quickly.

[wedge]

So, no relevance or transference whatsover to the 'real motoring world' then....

Again, don't blame Pirelli. It's the stupid rules and Todt being anally retarded for not getting rid of using both compounds during a race. Any other company would have problems promoting their tyres on the back of F1 with the current rules.

[V12]

While yes it's true in a way that it's not Pirelli's fault, it's the fault of the rules with the control tyres, at the end of the day Pirelli knew the rules and the "brief" when they signed up, so they knew what they were getting themselves into. In that respect I have no sympathy for them. If you willingly aid and abet a criminal then you are in turn guilty of an offence yourself.

I've far more respect for Michelin who have stuck to their principles and said they'd only come back when there was proper competition again. Sadly I'm not sure if we ever will again.

[SGWilko]

I've far more respect for Michelin who have stuck to their principles and said they'd only come back when there was proper competition again. Sadly I'm not sure if we ever will again.

I think Michelin were prepared to be the sole tyre supplier, but with a condition;

That they could use this opportunity as a research bed for their energy saving tyres, knowledge from which they would apply directly to their road car tyre range......

[V12]

I think Michelin were prepared to be the sole tyre supplier, but with a condition;

That they could use this opportunity as a research bed for their energy saving tyres, knowledge from which they would apply directly to their road car tyre range......

I must admit I've probably digested less F1 news the past year as my interest level has begun to wane somewhat with these new rules, so did a quick Google search to refresh my memory.

http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/14191.html

Looks like we're both right, it seemed that there were a few factors affecting their return - competition, a common architecture with their sportscar tyres, and what you mentioned above.

All in all, much more honourable intentions than Pirelli's though.

Nothing personal against Pirelli - I cheered for them against Michelin back in the WRC glory days when the likes of McRae and Burns were on them, but they're selling themselves horribly short when if they and other tyre manufacturers went along with Michelin's stance they could force the FIA's hand on this, and benefit their own R&D for their everyday products too.

[Bagwan]

For you guys slagging Pirelli , how much difference in amount of relativity to road use is there really , whether the tires last either one hundred miles or two hundred miles ?

And , why does nobody from that camp believe that the tires will act rather differently when they run at places with a little more temperature to put the tires through a proper heat cycle ?
It has been pointed out by the company a number of times that they haven't seen much heat in testing . They believe the marble problem will be much less with hot weather as well , as a result as well .

[wedge]

I think Michelin were prepared to be the sole tyre supplier, but with a condition;

That they could use this opportunity as a research bed for their energy saving tyres, knowledge from which they would apply directly to their road car tyre range......

Actually they were advocating larger rims/tyres and thus save costs by sharing technology used in endurance racing.


While yes it's true in a way that it's not Pirelli's fault, it's the fault of the rules with the control tyres, at the end of the day Pirelli knew the rules and the "brief" when they signed up, so they knew what they were getting themselves into. In that respect I have no sympathy for them. If you willingly aid and abet a criminal then you are in turn guilty of an offence yourself.

I've far more respect for Michelin who have stuck to their principles and said they'd only come back when there was proper competition again. Sadly I'm not sure if we ever will again.

I know you're an advocate greater competition and variables but I wonder if you're persuaded by any of Pat Symonds' thoughts?

http://www.motorsportmagazine.co.uk/2010/11/30/novembers-audio-podcast-with-pat-symonds/

[Dave B]

At least the marking should be easier to distinguish than a simple green stripe:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/90008

Wet - orange
Intermediate - light blue
Supersoft - red
Soft – yellow
Medium – white
Hard – silver

[Retro Formula 1]

White and Silver look similar to me. Hope it looks different in action.

[N4D13]

White and Silver look similar to me. Hope it looks different in action.
Agreed. Why couldn't they use green?

[Dave B]

White and Silver look similar to me. Hope it looks different in action.

But but but.... white and silver won't be used on the same weekend as there's always one compound in between the two that get chosen.

[VkmSpouge]

Very smart colour coding by Pirelli. It should be a lot easier to tell which tyres everyone is on than Bridgestone's green stripe.

[truefan72]

White and Silver look similar to me. Hope it looks different in action.


Agreed. Why couldn't they use green?

exactly, green would have made sense for the hards. hopefully they will change it

[truefan72]

But but but.... white and silver won't be used on the same weekend as there's always one compound in between the two that get chosen.

still does not negate the fact that they would look too similar

[ioan]

Very smart colour coding by Pirelli. It should be a lot easier to tell which tyres everyone is on than Bridgestone's green stripe.

Huh?!

Now you need to remember 4 different colors, before it was only one. Very 'smart' indeed.

[Sonic]

I'm sure you'll manage - you're a smart cookie.

[truefan72]

Huh?!

Now you need to remember 4 different colors, before it was only one. Very 'smart' indeed.

cmon ioan it is an improvement, I've already memorized the colors, go ahead quiz me ;)

[ioan]

I'm sure you'll manage - you're a smart cookie.

Maybe, but I prefer simple things instead of contrived crap.

[ioan]

cmon ioan it is an improvement, I've already memorized the colors, go ahead quiz me ;)

:)

[UltimateDanGTR]

The colouring system might confuse the 'one-off' or 'casual' viewer, but us 'hardcore' (for want of a better word) fans will have no problem's I'm sure.

[Sonic]

A very casual viewer probably wouldn't even register the difference as something noteworthy.

[wedge]

I just can't help thinking that the silly colouring system is asking for a fiasco. Unless there is protocols in place I can well imagine a batch of the wrong tyres being shipped to a GP.

[Sleeper]

Pirelli isn't very stiff. It's construction is softer than Bridgestones. Massa can lean more from the outside tyres when cornering.
Have you got a source? I've basically regurgitated what Mark Hughes has said. As for Massa's driving style, maybe its just a case of the weaker rears balancing out the handling for him.

[Dave B]

I just can't help thinking that the silly colouring system is asking for a fiasco. Unless there is protocols in place I can well imagine a batch of the wrong tyres being shipped to a GP.
They're all barcoded and AFAIK have RFID tags. If anything the colour code would be one additional visual check, I can't think Purelli are that daft as to pack the wrong tyres!

[Bagwan]

Relax , you kids .
We'll only have two compounds , and announcers who will be well versed in which are which .

The only question is why use silver .

I don't suppose they wanted equal time for the top team colours , did they ?
Supersoft - red for Ferrari
Soft – yellow for Renault
Medium – white for Sauber
Hard – silver for the Macs and Mercs

It seems like a bit too much coincidence , doesn't it ?

[ioan]

Relax , you kids .
We'll only have two compounds , and announcers who will be well versed in which are which .

The only question is why use silver .

I don't suppose they wanted equal time for the top team colours , did they ?
Supersoft - red for Ferrari
Soft – yellow for Renault
Medium – white for Sauber
Hard – silver for the Macs and Mercs

It seems like a bit too much coincidence , doesn't it ?

What about RedBull then?

[ShiftingGears]

White and silver? I don't think it's going to be easy telling the difference between the two at speed.

[Kevincal]

too many colors, since at every gp there will only be 4 tire types possible used, they should have done it this way.

harder of the compound of the weekend = white (to be different from the colors below)
softer = green - symbolizing going faster (for 3 laps lol...)! :)
wet = red - symbolizing danger / high caution / very slow
intermediate = yellow - symbolizing slight caution / slow

I think white is good for the hard compound since that is the tire the teams will be on most of the time and its fair to all the different liveries, the tire lettering being white... possibly use blue for the harder compound if white and yellow too similar...

[Retro Formula 1]

But but but.... white and silver won't be used on the same weekend as there's always one compound in between the two that get chosen.

Yes, but can't teams choose which ones they use so one team might go for Ssoft and medium while another go for Soft and Hard?

[Bagwan]

What about RedBull then?

They have yellow and red , and one of the wet colours , blue .

Or , maybe Pirelli doesn't like them and they should consider themselves dissed .

I know . It was just a question , but why the heck use silver , if it isn't some kind of compensation for the teams that won't have what look like bespoke tires to the general public ?
I should think those red ones will look really good on the red cars , and the yellow on the yellow , etc .

Why not green replacing silver ?
Or , did Pirelli diss Bridgestone over the green sidewall at some point , making it a contradiction to use it ?

[Bagwan]

Yes, but can't teams choose which ones they use so one team might go for Ssoft and medium while another go for Soft and Hard?
I believe the compounds to be used are chosen by the FIA and Pirelli .

The old days , when they brought about a bazillion tires to each race are gone .

[Dave B]

Yes, but can't teams choose which ones they use so one team might go for Ssoft and medium while another go for Soft and Hard?

In a word: no.

[Bagwan]

In a word: no.

That's four words , Dave .

[Robinho]

silver and grey won't be a problem afaik as they'll bring 2 compunds to each race and they'll be one compound between them, so you'll never see grey and silver at the same time. you'll always have one coloured and one grey or silver

is their something else we can complain about, the tyres last too long, the new tyres are too soft and degrade (like they were asked to provide), the colours are wrong.

i really cannot see what everyone is so excited about, it appears that the tyres will add something extra to the races, something taht the Bridgestones didn't do in anything but extreme circumstances

[Retro Formula 1]

I believe the compounds to be used are chosen by the FIA and Pirelli .

The old days , when they brought about a bazillion tires to each race are gone .

Oh.Ok.My bad.

[SGWilko]

silver and grey won't be a problem afaik as they'll bring 2 compunds to each race and they'll be one compound between them, so you'll never see grey and silver at the same time. you'll always have one coloured and one grey or silver

is their something else we can complain about, the tyres last too long, the new tyres are too soft and degrade (like they were asked to provide), the colours are wrong.

i really cannot see what everyone is so excited about, it appears that the tyres will add something extra to the races, something taht the Bridgestones didn't do in anything but extreme circumstances

I probably shouldn't post this here, in case Bernie reads it and 'has an idea', but yes, I have a complaint;

Why dont we have other geometrically shaped tyres - say pentagonal one race, square the next and for an extreme how about triangular for Monaco.....? :dozey:

[Mark]

Just be thankful that the entire tyre isn't coloured, that was being seriously considered a few years ago.

[SGWilko]

Just be thankful that the entire tyre isn't coloured, that was being seriously considered a few years ago.

Oooohhhhh. Now there's an idea. Pink and blue please, liquorice flavoured with those coloured balls on the outside. Bertie Bassett can wave the chequered flag....... ;)

[truefan72]

I believe the compounds to be used are chosen by the FIA and Pirelli .

The old days , when they brought about a bazillion tires to each race are gone .
that is one change I agree with

[wedge]

Have you got a source? I've basically regurgitated what Mark Hughes has said. As for Massa's driving style, maybe its just a case of the weaker rears balancing out the handling for him.

No, it was something that's been stuck in my mind. I suppose with all this talk of softer Pirellis somewhere along the line misinterpreted/misread Paul Hembrey or commentator regarding compound and construction and for that I apologise.

[SGWilko]

Nice to see a huge chunk of tyre 'missing' from Vettel's fron left tyre after FP1. It wasn't worn, just missing a chunk of tread. :eek:

[woody2goody]

I'd actually like to go the Champ Car route of painting the sidewalls if they're going with colour coding. However early impressions of what Pirelli are doing are good for me, I think the yellow stands out quite well compared to the silver. It should be a tad brighter though.

[Mark]

I'd actually like to go the Champ Car route of painting the sidewalls if they're going with colour coding. However early impressions of what Pirelli are doing are good for me, I think the yellow stands out quite well compared to the silver. It should be a tad brighter though.

You've got to be able to see it from a distance, at speed, and on TV. Which means that it needs to be extremely bright and large to get noticed!

[Mark]

They're talking about it being a 4 stop race on Sunday, which is silly really, as much as one stoppers in 2010 were.

Ideally it should be a choice between 2 or 3 stops in a race - like the old days!

[Zico]

Not sure I like the idea of these extremely fragile tyres, I'd much prefer to see the cars being able to be pushed to the max without the penalty of degradation, with perhaps enough life in the tyres for 2 sets to easily last the full race. I hope Im wrong but I have a horrible feeling everyone is going to have to drive like 'old grannies' as Lewis and Jenson put it to pace the tyres through the race.

[gloomyDAY]

Vettel:


Q: It looked like a big chunk came off your tyre. Do you know what happened?
SV: I don’t think that it happened early on because I didn’t feel any change on the car, or at least not a big one. It’s true it was a big chunk and believe me I was surprised myself when I saw it. We don’t know why it happened and Pirelli is still investigating, because we need to understand as I definitely didn’t lock up the tyres or go off the track. We definitely need to find an answer.
:|

[UltimateDanGTR]

They're talking about it being a 4 stop race on Sunday, which is silly really, as much as one stoppers in 2010 were.

Ideally it should be a choice between 2 or 3 stops in a race - like the old days!

I hope we get a nice range-some doing 2 whilst others do 3 and a select few doing 4 would surely be spectacular if tyre wear is big enough. I am really hoping someone pits with 8/10 laps to go and storms through the midfield as everyone else suffers tyre wear.

[Sleeper]

The BBC were reporting that debris (probably the Sauber engine cover that came off) caused that chunk to be missing from Vettels tyre.

Button did 30 laps on one set of hards today, and Hamilton about 25, so I think its time we put to bed the 4-stops-per-race panic.

[Daniel]

that is one change I agree with

Why? Back in the good old days it was up to the skill of the driver/team to choose the right tyres, these days there is more or less only one choice or which tyres to run at what point in the race.

[wedge]

Solid performance today.

Green track, cool conditions, the track even looked hardly rubbered in after the race.

[markabilly]

What tire or tyre manufacturer would want to have his tire making ability appear to the WHOLE WORLD be as lousy as this perfomance today?

While it may have been intended and mandated to be such by Bernie or other Morons, I thought Perelli stunk up the place, esp. for just people who might happen to be a causal fan and turn on the TV.

Look at us, nobody knows when to pit, hard tires don't always work, tire get to chunking sometime, but hey, our tires were on the winning car

vettel: "a big chunk went flying off my tire....

if I were that causal fan thinking about buying some tires and saw today's perfomance, any tires made by them would not be on my list

[Mark]

I thought just the opposite. They put in a good performance today.

[markabilly]

I thought just the opposite. They put in a good performance today.

you are not a causal fan, and you know the real score

[Daniel]

I think Michelin were prepared to be the sole tyre supplier, but with a condition

You've got to be kidding if you think that Michelin were ever in the running. Ever since the US GP that year the FIA have been against Michelin as much as possible. They got dumped in the WRC when they were by far the better choice against Pirelli.

[Daniel]

Decent enough performance from Pirelli today. But the conditions were hardly challenging :) Just you wait till there's some unseasonally cold or warm weather at a GP. Vettel's tyre chunking seemed like an isolated incident thankly and probably down to debris.

I still maintain that the tyre regs are all wrong as they are.

My tyre regs
Any tyre manufacturer allowed
Tyre manufacturers can bring as many different tyres as possible
No limit to the amount of tyres you can use in the race
No need to use certain compounds during the race.
No racing on the tyres you qualified on and so on
Refuelling allowed so people can 1 stop or 10 stop if they want to :)

So basically no tyre regs!

[AndyRAC]

Decent enough performance from Pirelli today. But the conditions were hardly challenging :) Just you wait till there's some unseasonally cold or warm weather at a GP. Vettel's tyre chunking seemed like an isolated incident thankly and probably down to debris.

I still maintain that the tyre regs are all wrong as they are.

My tyre regs
Any tyre manufacturer allowed
Tyre manufacturers can bring as many different tyres as possible
No limit to the amount of tyres you can use in the race
No need to use certain compounds during the race.
No racing on the tyres you qualified on and so on
Refuelling allowed so people can 1 stop or 10 stop if they want to :)

So basically no tyre regs!

Almost agreed apart from the refueling, but it won't happen.

What would happen if Goodyear, Kumho, Dunlop, etc all came knocking wanting a piece of the action? Would the FiA ignore them?

[Daniel]

Almost agreed apart from the refueling, but it won't happen.

What would happen if Goodyear, Kumho, Dunlop, etc all came knocking wanting a piece of the action? Would the FiA ignore them?

Of course :) The FIA ignores common sense wherever possible. Why wouldn't you like refuelling? It was always interesting to see people on light fuel loads and worn tyres against people on worn tyres with lots of fuel and so on.

[AndyRAC]

Was never a fan of refueling - probably from when i first watched F1 in the mid 80's and Prost would be clever and conserve his tyres whilst Senna, Piquet, Mansell at al disappeared into the distance.

[wedge]

Decent enough performance from Pirelli today. But the conditions were hardly challenging :) Just you wait till there's some unseasonally cold or warm weather at a GP. Vettel's tyre chunking seemed like an isolated incident thankly and probably down to debris.

Cool start to GP weekend, green track, temporary street circuit and you're saying that's hardly a challenge? Even on Sunday after the race the track looked barely rubbered in.

[markabilly]

Almost agreed apart from the refueling, but it won't happen.

What would happen if Goodyear, Kumho, Dunlop, etc all came knocking wanting a piece of the action? Would the FiA ignore them?

to avoid being ignored, they would need to be like greeks bearing gifts, for I wonder who made how much money sub rosa on this deal??

Speaking of such, they could always let Trojan do the rubber....give a whole new meaning to rubbering in and used rubber.......

[Zico]

I wouldn't mind seeing the alleged high speed spin that caused this damage to Petrovs tyre.. the ply is exposed, ripped apart. An uber flat spot through the ply from braking.. or the result of the spin.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/9455739.stm

Has anyone ever seen such damage done to a michelin in similar circumstances?

[wedge]

Major criticisms about the marbles. Not just off-line but literally becoming rubber bullets according to Paul Di Resta.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formulaone/8441989/Malaysian-Grand-Prix-2011-Pirelli-in-the-firing-line-over-rubber-bullets.html

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/90662

[Mia 01]

I like them, nowdays it takes moore than red mist to win a race.

Bring on China.

[gloomyDAY]

I agree with Pirelli's stance. This is what the FIA wanted, so too bad. They're not the party to blame.

Let the circus continue because the show must go on. :rolleyes:

[Garry Walker]

Was never a fan of refueling - probably from when i first watched F1 in the mid 80's and Prost would be clever and conserve his tyres whilst Senna, Piquet, Mansell at al disappeared into the distance.

I was always more a fan of the kind of racing where the drivers have to be on the limit all the time, instead of conserving tyres and fuel.

[Sonic]

I was always more a fan of the kind of racing where the drivers have to be on the limit all the time, instead of conserving tyres and fuel.

I'd agree to a point. Except take out the word racing and replace it with driving. The multiple sprint races of the refuelling era were good for watching a car at its limits, but produced little racing. Other than against the clock that is.

I'm pleased it's gone.

[wedge]

I was always more a fan of the kind of racing where the drivers have to be on the limit all the time, instead of conserving tyres and fuel.

Conservation is part of racing.

[gloomyDAY]

I still think the Pirelli tires need to be a improved, but so far, the season has been fun. This is what the FIA wanted and I believe that Pirelli are close to actually acquiring what another member mentioned as the "Holy Grail". Soft tires that have less endurance than hard tires, but are almost a second faster per lap.

Not too shabby...

[Daniel]

I still think the Pirelli tires need to be a improved, but so far, the season has been fun. This is what the FIA wanted and I believe that Pirelli are close to actually acquiring what another member mentioned as the "Holy Grail". Soft tires that have less endurance than hard tires, but are almost a second faster per lap.

Not too shabby...

gloomyDAY, who says their close? If their form in the WRC when they were competing on an even footing with Michelin is anything to go by they'll probably make things worse/

[gloomyDAY]

gloomyDAY, who says their close? If their form in the WRC when they were competing on an even footing with Michelin is anything to go by they'll probably make things worse/Well, we're stuck with Pirelli and they're on a much bigger stage than with WRC. Pirelli better get it right, and I think they're getting there race by race. I just don't want another Bridgestone situation where the hard compound tires can last the duration of an entire race (Button - Oz 2010).

Qualifying isn't as important anymore, but strategy is make or break on raceday. This is solely based on the fact that the teams cannot risk using those Pirelli tires during qualifying. That makes Sunday a lot more fun, therefore, getting the FIA's intentions right.

[ioan]

Let's be honest. Bridgestone left because there was nothing to win from being sole supplier however they had a great image with very good tires and so on.
What Pirelli are doing right now with tires that last 5 times less then Bridgestones is in no way good for them from a marketing point of view given that every 2nd sentence on the TV commentary is about the fast degrading tires = crap tires.

[Daniel]

Well, we're stuck with Pirelli and they're on a much bigger stage than with WRC. Pirelli better get it right, and I think they're getting there race by race. I just don't want another Bridgestone situation where the hard compound tires can last the duration of an entire race (Button - Oz 2010).

Qualifying isn't as important anymore, but strategy is make or break on raceday. This is solely based on the fact that the teams cannot risk using those Pirelli tires during qualifying. That makes Sunday a lot more fun, therefore, getting the FIA's intentions right.

I agree, the tyre situation wasn't good with bridgestone, they were good tyres, but they weren't good for racing.

[Sonic]

Let's be honest. Bridgestone left because there was nothing to win from being sole supplier however they had a great image with very good tires and so on.
What Pirelli are doing right now with tires that last 5 times less then Bridgestones is in no way good for them from a marketing point of view given that every 2nd sentence on the TV commentary is about the fast degrading tires = crap tires.

Even more reason not to slag them off wouldn't you say?

Stepping into the hole left by bridgestone; doing so with half a years lead time; doing so in a manner that could potentially harm their products reputation by providing highly fragile tyres based on the FIA's request.

F1 fans have a great deal to thank Pirelli for.

[ioan]

Even more reason not to slag them off wouldn't you say?

Huh?
Should we now support mediocrity? No way!

[Sonic]

Huh?
Should we now support mediocrity? No way!

That's kinda the opposite to my view. Pirelli have been in no way mediocre; they've been heroic! Ramping up their infrastructure to design, construct, test and distribute tyres, with a lead time of less than a year!

Regardless of what you personally think of the product they have produced, that's one heck of an effort.

[Mark]

Everyone assumes that people thing degrading tyres = crap. Whereas most of the comments outside of F1 forums I've seen are that Pirelli has come up with some brilliant tyres that make for excellent racing.

[Daniel]

Everyone assumes that people thing degrading tyres = crap. Whereas most of the comments outside of F1 forums I've seen are that Pirelli has come up with some brilliant tyres that make for excellent racing.

But it shows a lack of ability. Imagine if a manufacturer made a sporty branded tyre and an eco branded tyre in the same size and the only difference between them was that the eco tyre wasn't as grippy but still wore out as quickly and used as much fuel? Why would you buy the eco branded tyre? At least with bridgestone there were points in the race where the hard could be the quicker and points where the soft could be the quicker.

[Sonic]

But it shows a lack of ability. Imagine if a manufacturer made a sporty branded tyre and an eco branded tyre in the same size and the only difference between them was that the eco tyre wasn't as grippy but still wore out as quickly and used as much fuel? Why would you buy the eco branded tyre? At least with bridgestone there were points in the race where the hard could be the quicker and points where the soft could be the quicker.

I'm not sure what you are saying. Are you suggesting that's the general publics view of the company, or your own?

[Daniel]

I'm not sure what you are saying. Are you suggesting that's the general publics view of the company, or your own?

Well that the image Pirelli have portrayed, whether or not that's what average joes think is another thing I guess.

[pino]

Whereas most of the comments outside of F1 forums I've seen are that Pirelli has come up with some brilliant tyres that make for excellent racing.

That's what I am reading everyday in most forums and websites. Now I know why ioan has issues with Pirelli, still don't get why Daniel feels the same way...

[Daniel]

That's what I am reading everyday in most forums and websites. Now I know why ioan has issues with Pirelli, still don't get why Daniel feels the same way...

I don't trust Pirelli after their crap performance in the WRC against Michelin which more or less cost Petter or Chris any chance of being competitive when they still had a decent car.... When your tyres start to delaminate because it's 5 degrees warmed than what you expected then I think you're a very poor tyremaker and don't deserve to be competing at the highest level.

[Sonic]

I don't trust Pirelli after their crap performance in the WRC against Michelin which more or less cost Petter or Chris any chance of being competitive when they still had a decent car.... When your tyres start to delaminate because it's 5 degrees warmed than what you expected then I think you're a very poor tyremaker and don't deserve to be competing at the highest level.

Fair enough.

[Daniel]

I should point out that whilst Michelin had issues at the USGP back in 2005, it was only one racing. Pirelli had serious issues for 2 or 3 rallies if I remember rightly and were uncompetitive for most of the year.

[pino]

I knew it had something to do with WRC, just wanted you to confirm it ;)

[Sonic]

^^^ perhaps so, but every tyre company I can remember supplying F1 (or any competitive series) has had duff tyres - some you could call dangerous like those Michelin's you mentioned back in '05. But you could also add Bridgestone's uncompetetive year in that same season to the list, or Kimi's tyre failing completely at the ring, or Goodyears poor '98 season etc etc etc.

What I'm trying to say (perhaps inelegantly) is that these are competition tyres and whether die hard fans, or joe public, we are intelligent enough to realise that just because a Pirelli race 'hard' lasts 50 miles tops, we are not only going to get three trips to tesco's if we buy road P's. And they will not blow at Motorway speeds.

That said, if Bridgestone were here I have no doubt they would be kicking Pirelli to the kerb. But this isn't a tyre war, which means the sole supplier can produce whatever they like as long as it gives us what we want on the track - competition.

[Mark]

But it shows a lack of ability. Imagine if a manufacturer made a sporty branded tyre and an eco branded tyre in the same size and the only difference between them was that the eco tyre wasn't as grippy but still wore out as quickly and used as much fuel? Why would you buy the eco branded tyre? At least with bridgestone there were points in the race where the hard could be the quicker and points where the soft could be the quicker.

Yes but I'm saying the average person who doesn't visit motorsport forums - i.e. not you! Doesn't know that the soft vs hards aren't entirely consistent, and they don't care, they just know that the racing is good this year and that's party down to the Pirelli tyres - end of story.

[markabilly]

I don't trust Pirelli after their crap performance in the WRC against Michelin which more or less cost Petter or Chris any chance of being competitive when they still had a decent car.... When your tyres start to delaminate because it's 5 degrees warmed than what you expected then I think you're a very poor tyremaker and don't deserve to be competing at the highest level.

Yes, and as for "excellent racing" well you could just put used street tires from small cars, and that would make it even more "exciting"

Clearly cars on fresh rubber, just stomp cars that are on used rubber, even without the DRS, due to the added traction coming out of the corners.

The car with newer rubber, just catches up on exit, where what should be happening is the "constantino effect" (yeah I kno I mispelt it), but that is where the gap widens greatly upon exit from a corner because the car in front is going faster and accelerating first. The actual time gap between the two cars is the same, but the speed is not, so the distance gap appears to widen.

However, you can see that is not happening when the car behind is on fresh rubbers.


Not to bad mouth too much, and give credit where it is due, they have done a good job considering that they jumped in cold, without the experience of a goodyear, bridgestone or michellin....


But as I posted elsewhere....well, speaking of the advantages of used v. fresh rubbers


OH, Yeah


speaking of used rubber, reminds me of the time donkey and his bud were out in the country and approached by a sweet thing.

She said let's get it on....they said, "well, yes mam".

she said, "but I don't want to get preganent, so you got to wear this" and hands out one for each.

They put it on, and then they get it on.

About four months later, after she is gone, they get to talking.

One asks the other, "do you really care if she gets preganant?"

The other says, "well no I do not."

So the others say, "me neither, so why don't we take these old rubbers off......




Some folks along pit wall need to remember to take the old rubbers off earlier than later.....
:s mokin:

(yeah, DonKey, I be talkin about you)

[555-04Q2]

Pirelli have done a great job so far :up:

Keep it up chaps :)

[ioan]

...or Kimi's tyre failing completely at the ring...

That was a suspension failure.

[ioan]

Yes but I'm saying the average person who doesn't visit motorsport forums - i.e. not you! Doesn't know that the soft vs hards aren't entirely consistent, and they don't care, they just know that the racing is good this year and that's party down to the Pirelli tyres - end of story.

The commentators are making it clear to the average Joe every 30 seconds as soon as someone is driving on harder tires, no need for the average Joe to stress his brain at all.

[ioan]

the "constantino effect" (yeah I kno I mispelt it)

I don't know if we can even call it misspellt given that it is the 'concertina' effect. ;)

[SGWilko]

That was a suspension failure.

Caused by driving on a tyre with a serious flatspot.

[SGWilko]

I don't know if we can even call it misspellt given that it is the 'concertina' effect. ;)

Concertina? I thought it was an F1 car, not a sales rep's Ford! ;)

[Sonic]

Caused by driving on a tyre with a serious flatspot.

Glad someone else remembered :)

[ioan]

Caused by driving on a tyre with a serious flatspot.

So it's the tires fault that the driver flat spotted it?

I bet if any applied the same braking to a current Pirelli F1 tire the tire would blast right then and there.

[ioan]

Glad someone else remembered :)

Don't try to duck it, the tire didn't fail.

[Daniel]

So it's the tires fault that the driver flat spotted it?

I bet if any applied the same braking to a current Pirelli F1 tire the tire would blast right then and there.

And then people on here would decide that this is what the FIA asked of Pirelli :laugh:

[Retro Formula 1]

And then people on here would decide that this is what the FIA asked of Pirelli :laugh:
Ahhh, the rubbish B side to ioans scratched A side. If you hate Pirelli because of some perceived injustice in sodding WRC then take it over there.

[Daniel]

Ahhh, the rubbish B side to ioans scratched A side. If you hate Pirelli because of some perceived injustice in sodding WRC then take it over there.

Discussing how crap Pirelli are in a series where they're not competing is kind of silly non?

[Sonic]

Don't try to duck it, the tire didn't fail.

Not trying to do any such thing old friend.

As I see it, it was indeed Kimi's suspension that let go. It let go because of massive vibrations in a tyre. A tyre that had already completed qualifying and 99% of a race distance.

If I recall the rules correctly from 2005, if Kimi had changed his tyre, the FIA -after the race - would have decided if he had any justification to do so. If they believed he didn't he would have been disqualified.

Rock/hard place.

That situation arose because of the rules that year (as did the US debacle), so IMO, the Pirelli situation, where they were given a brief for a minimum of two stops as early as august last year, is much the same.

You can't 'blame' them for giving us (the majority anyway) what we want.

[Retro Formula 1]

Discussing how crap Pirelli are in a series where they're not competing is kind of silly non?

And what then is slagging them off for providing a tyre that they are contrcted to just because you dislike them for a tyre they supplied for a Rally series?

[Daniel]

And what then is slagging them off for providing a tyre that they are contrcted to just because you dislike them for a tyre they supplied for a Rally series?

You have absolutely no proof of this notion that they are contracted to provide hards which only last as long as softs and are 1s /km slower. If the tyres got off the rims at the end of the race and started to dance the can can, you people would say that it's because the FIA asked Pirelli to make them do that. It's a rather lame argument.

[Retro Formula 1]

You have absolutely no proof of this notion that they are contracted to provide hards which only last as long as softs and are 1s /km slower. If the tyres got off the rims at the end of the race and started to dance the can can, you people would say that it's because the FIA asked Pirelli to make them do that. It's a rather lame argument.

i never said that Pirelli were contracted to make the hards last as long as the softs but merely speculated that it could be to mix the racing up a bit. I don't have a clue what the specifics of the Tender are and don't really care. It's making a exciting season and that's good enough for me.

Pirelli can obviously make a tyre to last a whole race if they want but for this season, they are producing a tyre to particular parameters as defined by the FIA. Nether the FIA or Drivers seem too upset now although I think there is room for improvement.

[Daniel]

Pirelli can obviously make a tyre to last a whole race if they want

Proof? Oh wait, that's right! You don't have any!

[Mark]

Why would you need any? We know fine well that any tyre manufacturer can make a tyre last for an entire race - or even longer if they were so minded. There's no reason to suspect Pirelli couldn't also do that. But the fact that the FIA asked them not to means they don't :crazy:

[Daniel]

Why would you need any? We know fine well that any tyre manufacturer can make a tyre last for an entire race - or even longer if they were so minded. There's no reason to suspect Pirelli couldn't also do that. But the fact that the FIA asked them not to means they don't :crazy:

F1 is special though. To build a tyre which is quick throughout the race and would last the whole race is quite an achievement and I don't think just anyone could do it.

[Mark]

But we've had Pirelli (unless you think they are lying) saying that building a tyre to only last a certain distance was actually much more difficult than producing a tyre which would last a long time.

Besides, Bridgestone made tyres which were too hard, of course they had tyres which lasted the whole race in 2003, and subsequent years drivers only stopped to refuel, and in 2010 they only stopped because they had to put on a different type of tyre, which made little difference.

[SGWilko]

So it's the tires fault that the driver flat spotted it?

I bet if any applied the same braking to a current Pirelli F1 tire the tire would blast right then and there.

Au contraire - Kimi was his only downfall by locking up - I would say the tyre, suspension and his fillings held up remarkabilly well!

[SGWilko]

F1 is special though. To build a tyre which is quick throughout the race and would last the whole race is quite an achievement and I don't think just anyone could do it.

...... in their first season having returned to F1 after a long break. If you want to compare successful tyre products you need to look at endurance racing. Which company supplies the most suitable tyres, for example, in the Le Mans 24HRS race? (that's not rhetorical BTW)

[Daniel]

But we've had Pirelli (unless you think they are lying) saying that building a tyre to only last a certain distance was actually much more difficult than producing a tyre which would last a long time.

Besides, Bridgestone made tyres which were too hard, of course they had tyres which lasted the whole race in 2003, and subsequent years drivers only stopped to refuel, and in 2010 they only stopped because they had to put on a different type of tyre, which made little difference.

I don't necessarily think they're lying, I just feel that a company who can't build a hard that lasts longer than a soft perhaps isn't the best manufacturer to be making tyres for a top level race series.

The FIA has a history in recent years of choosing the less qualified of two companies to supply tyres.

In the WRC when there was a choice between Pirelli and Michelin/BF Goodrich a few years ago and depsite the issues which Pirelli had with delaminating tyres only a year or so before, Pirelli were chosen and made rock hard tyres. Now all of a sudden Pirelli don't want to supply to the WRC and they have BF Goodrich and Dmack tyres. I mean who the **** are Dmack?

If people don't think there's even the slightest chance that the FIA might just be biased against Michelin/BF Goodrich and perhaps a little too eager to accept Pirelli bids. Now I'm certainly not suggesting there's any possible corruption or anything going on here :laugh: Heaven forbid the FIA should be involved in anything like that :laugh:

[Daniel]

...... in their first season having returned to F1 after a long break. If you want to compare successful tyre products you need to look at endurance racing. Which company supplies the most suitable tyres, for example, in the Le Mans 24HRS race? (that's not rhetorical BTW)

Michelin? It would be very interesting to see how many drivers and manufacturers the various tyre brands have. Obviously you'd have to exclude times where there is only a single supplier or there's a control tyre.

Control tyres are just stupid anyway. The whole skill of being a racing/rally driver is to choose the right compound which is going to work for the race and indeed during different parts of the race. I'd love to see Michelin/Dunlop/Goodyear/Bridgestone/Pirelli duking it out on the track. Right now any moron, let alone an F1 engineer or racing driver could pick the right compound for races these days. Not Pirelli's problem I'll admit, but the product of silly control tyre rules better suited to far lower formulae.

[Mark]

We can all agree on that, but it's all part of the FIA's supposed cost cutting. Nobody really likes being a control tyre - except Goodyear.

[Daniel]

We can all agree on that, but it's all part of the FIA's supposed cost cutting. Nobody really likes being a control tyre - except Goodyear.

I think costs have been cut in the wrong departments though. I think the additional cost of having a tyre manufacturer bringing however many compounds they felt necessary would be less than some of the extravagances which F1 indulges in *cough* motorhomes/motormansions *cough* No one's suggesting they start using popup caravan's or anything ;) But different compounds of tyre made things so much more interesting when one team got one compound to work with their car and so on.

[wedge]

F1 is special though. To build a tyre which is quick throughout the race and would last the whole race is quite an achievement and I don't think just anyone could do it.

Endurance racing is more interesting in that regard, trying to double stint on a set of tyres.


Control tyres are just stupid anyway. The whole skill of being a racing/rally driver is to choose the right compound which is going to work for the race and indeed during different parts of the race. I'd love to see Michelin/Dunlop/Goodyear/Bridgestone/Pirelli duking it out on the track. Right now any moron, let alone an F1 engineer or racing driver could pick the right compound for races these days. Not Pirelli's problem I'll admit, but the product of silly control tyre rules better suited to far lower formulae.

What I would like to see is freedom of choice across brand and compounds instead of being contracted to a single company and the incentive of free tyres.


If people don't think there's even the slightest chance that the FIA might just be biased against Michelin/BF Goodrich and perhaps a little too eager to accept Pirelli bids. Now I'm certainly not suggesting there's any possible corruption or anything going on here :laugh: Heaven forbid the FIA should be involved in anything like that :laugh:



http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2011/05/pirelli-happy-to-stay-in-f1-as-long-as-the-price-is-right/

Last year Pirelli was selected to be the sole tyre supplier, beating Michelin to the deal. One of the criteria was that the Pirelli tyres were cheaper and they would supply more sets than Michelin.

[Daniel]

Endurance racing is indeed interesting in that sense :)

Perhaps I need my tinfoil hat putting on, but I won't just take what James Allen says as fact :)

[wedge]

Michelin wanted to transfer their endurance racing know how to F1 with bigger wheels which meant more money and R&D bother.

[gloomyDAY]

Michelin wanted to transfer their endurance racing know how to F1 with bigger wheels which meant more money and R&D bother.I remember that Michelin proposed 20" wheels. If Michelin had won the bid, then Lewis Hamilton would have had spinners on his car since Oz.

[Mark]

It would have completely changed the look and handling of the cars. Which is why the teams didn't want it.

[ioan]

Saw this one coming, new hard compound is crappier than the previous one!

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/91529

[Daniel]

Saw this one coming, new hard compound is crappier than the previous one!

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/91529

Obviously the FIA must have asked them to do it ioan :laugh:

[gloomyDAY]

Fudge! Daniel is right again.

My confidence in Pirelli receded after reading all the driver's comments.

[ioan]

Obviously the FIA must have asked them to do it ioan :laugh:

Obviously! :D
And it has nothing to do with them having outsourced the F1 research to Spearmint! ;)

[555-04Q2]

It has to be said that Pirelli have really brought the fun back into F1 again. Thank you, thank you, thank you Pirelli !

I am loving F1 more this season than any other season before, and I've seen some good ones in the past !

[The Black Knight]

http://en.espnf1.com/monaco/motorsport/story/50380.html

Pirelli support red flag rule tweak so cars are not allowed to be worked in in a red flag situation. I support this too, no work allowed on the cars, they start as they stop.

We were robbed of a grandstand finish last Sunday. It's a shame. I doubt Vettel would have won the race on 62 lap old Pirelli's.

[Sonic]

How do we all think P's will stand up to Canada?

[SGWilko]

How do we all think P's will stand up to Canada?

Good question - my crystal ball has packed up again!

They held up very well at Monaco, and I recal Alonso chewed his Michelin grooved rears up there one year.

Canada is, I think, abrasive and has some severe braking zones, but crucially, no real fast high G corners, which have been the Pirelli killers thus far.

[Sonic]

Good question - my crystal ball has packed up again!

They held up very well at Monaco, and I recal Alonso chewed his Michelin grooved rears up there one year.

Canada is, I think, abrasive and has some severe braking zones, but crucially, no real fast high G corners, which have been the Pirelli killers thus far.

Yeah, my feelings too. Rears could give out quickly if there is traction issues out of the hairpins, but based on Monaco hopefully P will get 2 for 2 with their supersofts.

[wedge]

They held up very well at Monaco, and I recal Alonso chewed his Michelin grooved rears up there one year.

That was due to rear bias weight distribution and also explain the Renaults quick off the line in the mid-2000s


Canada is, I think, abrasive

It's not particularly abrasive at all. The track breaks up easily because of the climate. It's low grip due to the nature of being a temporary circuit so graining might need attention and therefore the track needs to be ramped up across the weekend - which never happened last year with rain and green race track on day hence the severe graining and degradation.

Here's some points I've found about the Pirelli's characteristics:


BBC Sport - The mysteries of Red Bull v McLaren (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/formula_one/13514134.stm)

The suggestion is that the RB7 has too much high-speed downforce for the fragile Pirelli to be able to deal with for very long and therefore has to be nursed more than on the McLaren.

During the tyre war of the early 2000s - and even to an extent with the tough control tyre Bridgestones of the last few years - it used to be that the more you could load up the car with downforce, the faster your stint time would be.

Indeed, James Allen concurs:


A deep dive into the race strategies from Monaco: how the race was won : James Allen on F1 – The official website (http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2011/05/a-deep-dive-into-the-race-strategies-from-monaco-how-the-race-was-won/)

It seems that the Pirellis fall apart quickly on tracks with medium to high speed corners, like Istanbul and Barcelona. But on low speed] tracks like Monaco they are better than Bridgestones because the surface of the tyre does not grain.

[Sonic]

Bump.

Can't help but notice how quiet all the Pirelli doubters have gone.

Did the supersofts fall apart in Monaco or Canada? No.

Did the wets disintegrate? No.

Did we need 6 pitstops? No.

I'm growing more and more impressed with Pirelli and any doubters that remain are just stubborn and will never give them the credit they deserve.

[The Black Knight]

Bump.

Can't help but notice how quiet all the Pirelli doubters have gone.

Did the supersofts fall apart in Monaco or Canada? No.

Did the wets disintegrate? No.

Did we need 6 pitstops? No.

I'm growing more and more impressed with Pirelli and any doubters that remain are just stubborn and will never give them the credit they deserve.

Indeed, but they haven't changed them. Once we get to hotter climates again I expect them to fall away once more.

[Daniel]

Bump.

Can't help but notice how quiet all the Pirelli doubters have gone.

Did the supersofts fall apart in Monaco or Canada? No.

Did the wets disintegrate? No.

Did we need 6 pitstops? No.

I'm growing more and more impressed with Pirelli and any doubters that remain are just stubborn and will never give them the credit they deserve.
I personally wasn't impressed with the wet performance of the wets and inters.

[pino]

I personally wasn't impressed with the wet performance of the wets and inters.

No matter what, Pirelli will never impress you :p : It's thanks to them that we've had some many exciting races so far this year...like it or not ;)

[Daniel]

No matter what, Pirelli will never impress you :p : It's thanks to them that we've had some many exciting races so far this year...like it or not ;)

True :)

[Sonic]

I personally wasn't impressed with the wet performance of the wets and inters.

Point proven I think.

[wedge]

The inters were still s**t in comparison to B'stones which had a larger operating window. Good thing they're not in a tyre war because I wouldn't be happy going to warmer climates.

Pirelli just don't have the luxury of tyre testing as in previous years.

[ioan]

Bump.

Can't help but notice how quiet all the Pirelli doubters have gone.

Did the supersofts fall apart in Monaco or Canada? No.

Did the wets disintegrate? No.

Did we need 6 pitstops? No.

I'm growing more and more impressed with Pirelli and any doubters that remain are just stubborn and will never give them the credit they deserve.

Latest news is that the FIA asked Pirelli to bring suitable compounds to races in order to allow for 2 stop races. I wonder why? Because they were great until now? :rolleyes:

[ioan]

I personally wasn't impressed with the wet performance of the wets and inters.

There's nothing to be impressed with. The tires are crap this year.

[pino]

There's nothing to be impressed with. The tires are crap this year.

That's why so many exciting races...keep on the bad job Pirelli :up: :D

[ioan]

I guess we get excited by different circumstances.

[steveaki13]

I think they are expecting a few issues in Valencia in a couple of weeks. I think I read that somewhere.

I know some haven't and won't be impressed by Pirelli, but I have largely enjoyed recent races, where the tyres have lasted a bit longer.

Lets hope the future races don't have too many major issues.

[Sonic]

There's nothing to be impressed with. The tires are crap this year.

Point double proven. Seesh. Perhaps one day you'll see the light but I doubt it.

[ioan]

Point double proven. Seesh. Perhaps one day you'll see the light but I doubt it.

I guess that makes it two of us then.

[Daniel]

Point proven I think.

Hey, I'm willing to agree to disagree on this :)

[Daniel]

The inters were still s**t in comparison to B'stones which had a larger operating window. Good thing they're not in a tyre war because I wouldn't be happy going to warmer climates.

Pirelli just don't have the luxury of tyre testing as in previous years.

Definitely. The 'stone inters were an awesome tyre. The Pirelli's aren't a patch on them and I think in the wet we need proper tyres.

Personally I think the the lack of testing is just moronic in terms of tyres and getting the lower teams up to speed.....

[airshifter]

I think Pirelli have done exactly as they were asked to do. We can't fault them for making the tires the powers that be wanted, and the change in tire life has made strategy a much more important aspect of the racing.

I think they should at least close the gap in performance between the two compounds used at a race. With so much time per lap between them, a driver can get a lucky break in track gaps and get on the right tires at the right time.

[ioan]

WTF is wrong with these Pirelli d!ckheads?

Pirelli wants qualifying rule tweak to stop teams not running to save tyres - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/92602)

Now they are pushing for Qualy rule changes instead of finally making real F1 tires. :down:
Is the crappy quality of their tires finally biting back when people see that drivers chose no to run in qualy on order to have enough tires to finish the race?! It was about time they got what they deserve for their under par products.

And WTH is wrong with F1 if any stupid newcomer who can't get their sh!t together can propose rule changes that suit their own agenda?! :down: :down:

[Sonic]

I may be wrong (its been known to happen) but do the teams not have two less sets of tyres for races this year? If that is the case, you really can't blame the drivers on the fringes of the top ten to try something a bit radical and not run in q3, and Pirelli just seem to be trying to close that loophole.

I don't see the problem. You are always banging on about the same rules for all Ioan, this just seems to ensure that level playing field, no?

[ioan]

I may be wrong (its been known to happen) but do the teams not have two less sets of tyres for races this year? If that is the case, you really can't blame the drivers on the fringes of the top ten to try something a bit radical and not run in q3, and Pirelli just seem to be trying to close that loophole.

I don't see the problem. You are always banging on about the same rules for all Ioan, this just seems to ensure that level playing field, no?

The same rules for all allows anyonenot to run in Qualifying if they don't want it.
What use to do a Q3 run if you know that you are slowest anyway?
Why shoul someone do a run if they don't need it? Just to massage Pirelli's crippled ego. Or is it that they make rules just for the sake of making rules?
F them. :down:

[Koz]

The same rules for all allows anyonenot to run in Qualifying if they don't want it.
What use to do a Q3 run if you know that you are slowest anyway?
Why shoul someone do a run if they don't need it? Just to massage Pirelli's crippled ego. Or is it that they make rules just for the sake of making rules?
F them. :down:

Exactly!

[wedge]

WTF is wrong with these Pirelli d!ckheads?

Pirelli wants qualifying rule tweak to stop teams not running to save tyres - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/92602)

Now they are pushing for Qualy rule changes instead of finally making real F1 tires. :down:
Is the crappy quality of their tires finally biting back when people see that drivers chose no to run in qualy on order to have enough tires to finish the race?! It was about time they got what they deserve for their under par products.

And WTH is wrong with F1 if any stupid newcomer who can't get their sh!t together can propose rule changes that suit their own agenda?! :down: :down:

Remember the start of 2009 when B'stones had a two step change between compounds but Vettel stupidly crashed into Kubica in Australia and then people complained how dangerous it was.

But then last year B'stones were too good and there was moaning.

Can't please everyone.

[ioan]

Remember the start of 2009 when B'stones had a two step change between compounds but Vettel stupidly crashed into Kubica in Australia and then people complained how dangerous it was.

But then last year B'stones were too good and there was moaning.

Can't please everyone.

Still what we see now in Q3 is due to Pirelli's crap product, so they should shut the f up and make some real racing tires instead of trying to change the rules to suit their crap.
How the heck did F1 even go as low as accepting these idiots to provide tires for the whole F1 grid is mind-boggling.

[steveaki13]

Still what we see now in Q3 is due to Pirelli's crap product, so they should shut the f up and make some real racing tires instead of trying to change the rules to suit their crap.
How the heck did F1 even go as low as accepting these idiots to provide tires for the whole F1 grid is mind-boggling.


Don't sit on the fence Ioan, say what you think. :p : ;)

[steveaki13]

Can't please everyone.

Can't please everyone

Can't ever please one.

[Daniel]

Yay! Another bit of strategy which they're removing from the mix..... fun....

[airshifter]

I think Pirelli are making the tires the FIA and F1 powers that be wanted. They warned us all before they were produced that there would be more fall off and more differences in the compounds. Tires were used to make for more passes through tire strategy, and so far it has worked.

That said, I don't think Pirelli should have any say in how a team or driver chooses to use their tires. I'm starting to think at some tracks the best strategy might be to go out on the harder compound and do a fast lap or two in hopes of advancing to Q2, and then just sit on all the softer tires and the balance of the hards to use up during the race.

I wonder if the concern is that cars will sit out the second two qually sessions too often, making for boring qually?

[Somebody]

Anyone know what compounds are due for Silverstone? They announced it as hard/soft in early May... at the same time they announced medium/super-soft for Valencia, which changed at some point to the medium/soft they actually went with. Have they changed the allocation for Silverstone to medium/soft or hard/medium? (since Autosport imply here (http://www.motorsportforums.com/f1/141069-pirelli-7.html#post937934) that the medium will be used at Silverstone)

[ioan]

Anyone know what compounds are due for Silverstone? They announced it as hard/soft in early May... at the same time they announced medium/super-soft for Valencia, which changed at some point to the medium/soft they actually went with. Have they changed the allocation for Silverstone to medium/soft or hard/medium? (since Autosport imply here (http://www.motorsportforums.com/f1/141069-pirelli-7.html#post937934) that the medium will be used at Silverstone)

It should be announced soon.
Interesting to note that Ferrari has been vocal about Pirelli bringing the harder compounds:

Pirelli vows to stay neutral amid Ferrari's concerns over hard tyre - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/92691)

I wonder if they will stick with their initial choice or support 'the show'! Let's see what happens.

[wedge]

Soft & Hard compound

FORMULA ONE - F1: Pirelli Takes Soft, Hard Tires To Silverstone (http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/f1-pirelli-takes-soft-hard-tires-to-silverstone)

Methinks this is going to backfire.

[555-04Q2]

Well that combination suits Red Bull the most. It will be interesting to see how Mercedes cope as they have been dismal with their tyre management this year.

[ioan]

Soft & Hard compound

FORMULA ONE - F1: Pirelli Takes Soft, Hard Tires To Silverstone (http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/f1-pirelli-takes-soft-hard-tires-to-silverstone)

Methinks this is going to backfire.

That's good. We won't have 1001 pit stops again.

[ioan]

Well that combination suits Red Bull the most. It will be interesting to see how Mercedes cope as they have been dismal with their tyre management this year.

The harder the tire the better. Mercedes is crap on the super softs, they kill those tires within a couple of laps.

[Mark]

BBC has been noting that the Pirelli tyres are now much more durable than they were at the start of the year. And I feel consequently that excitement we had at the start of the year is missing as Pirelli is no longer fulfilling their brief of supplying tyres which don't last as long.

[ioan]

They were never supposed to supply tires that degrade quickly, it was just face saving hogwash for the gullible fans.
The teams most probably pushed all the time in the background for consistent tires as none of them wants to lose precious points due to crap Pirellis.
Also Pirelli most probably felt the marketing backlash due to the very inconsistent tires.

[wedge]

They were never supposed to supply tires that degrade quickly, it was just face saving hogwash for the gullible fans.

If that's the case then why didn't Michelin win the contract?


The teams most probably pushed all the time in the background for consistent tires as none of them wants to lose precious points due to crap Pirellis.

Define consistent tyres?

Pirelli to alter shape of rear tyres in 2012 in order to improve wear - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/93190)



Also Pirelli most probably felt the marketing backlash due to the very inconsistent tires.


What marketing backlash?