Fronts or rears, take 2

[tannat]

A few of you may recall a thread I started last spring entitled fronts or rears

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?137756-Fronts-or-rears

In it I expressed my shock at a Michelin advertisement which recommended to replace the rears when replacing only two tires (thus putting the most grip at the rear). I expressed in the thread I would prefer more grip at the front.

At this weekend's Monte Carlo rally when I heard winner Bouffier (sp?) mounted 2 studded tires and two snows at one point I had to find out where he put the studded tires...

The front :D

http://www.ircseries.com/html/readNews.asp?id=2414

Tannat happy :p

[Zico]

My only guess is that its because a huge majority of the drivers on the roads would struggle to cope very well with the rear end coming out. Nearly all modern Fwd cars chassis are tuned for understeer as its easier for the average driver to deal with.

[Daniel]

Tannat not a rally driver driving on the absolute limit though. Everyone knows that if you're on a track or competing that you put your grippiest tyres on the drive wheel, that's never been up for debate. But for driving on the road you are best off with them on the rear as said before. Donkey Jote works for a tyre company and tbh I think I'll listen to him and not apply competition logic to my choices.

[Rollo]

You are better off putting new tyres on the front.

Under heavy braking, weight transfer loads up the front tyres and as such it's better that those two are in better condition that the rear, and matched. If you put you better tyres on the rear, when you need them the most they're at the wrong end.

Most people on the road are not looking at high performance for their tyres, they want them to work when they need them most. I'd rather have grippier tyres on the front so that I'd come to a stop quicker, than run the risk of older tyres swerving the car into oncoming traffic.

Front tyres are even more criticial on a FWD car than a RWD car because the front tyres carry the drive and the steering loads. As such, it's better to replace front tyres and cross them to the opposite sides of the car when they're on the rear.

[Daniel]

You are better off putting new tyres on the front.

Under heavy braking, weight transfer loads up the front tyres and as such it's better that those two are in better condition that the rear, and matched. If you put you better tyres on the rear, when you need them the most they're at the wrong end.

Most people on the road are not looking at high performance for their tyres, they want them to work when they need them most. I'd rather have grippier tyres on the front so that I'd come to a stop quicker, than run the risk of older tyres swerving the car into oncoming traffic.

Front tyres are even more criticial on a FWD car than a RWD car because the front tyres carry the drive and the steering loads. As such, it's better to replace front tyres and cross them to the opposite sides of the car when they're on the rear.

Surely it's more dangerous to hit the scenery sideways because of aquaplaning on a curve than hitting a car from behind with the part of your car best designed to hit other objects?

[Rollo]

Surely it's more dangerous to hit the scenery sideways because of aquaplaning on a curve than hitting a car from behind with the part of your car best designed to hit other objects?

Surely it's more dangerous to hit anything, than screech in a straight line and hit nothing.

Most accidents occur either nose to tail or head on and usually in heavy traffic.

[Daniel]

Surely it's more dangerous to hit anything, than screech in a straight line and hit nothing.

Most accidents occur either nose to tail or head on and usually in heavy traffic.

Most people don't wear hats on a daily basis. Your point being?

[rah]

I would go the fronts. Braking under all conditions is more important to me than sliding in the wet. And I drive a RWD Ute.

[Rollo]

Well if you're more likely to do something in a certain way, then that's the thing which it makes the most sense to try to avoid, statistically speaking.

[Daniel]

I would go the fronts. Braking under all conditions is more important to me than sliding in the wet. And I drive a RWD Ute.

Surely though stability is the most important thing?

Caroline's car currently has its best tyres on the front and tbh I actually find it a little unstable under braking. On the 500 I rotate the tyres so whilst at times the best tyres might be on the front they're rotated often enough that the difference isn't that big.

Rollo, statisticly I'm probably more likely to stub my toe than aquaplane in a corner and fly off the road but I'm more worried about hitting a tree going sideways than I am of mortally wounding my toe.

[rah]

I never really found stability to be a problem. But I think stability would be a problem if I was to slam into a car in front of me. Good fronts will reduce braking distance more than good backs as they carry more of the load.

[Daniel]

I never really found stability to be a problem. But I think stability would be a problem if I was to slam into a car in front of me. Good fronts will reduce braking distance more than good backs as they carry more of the load.

I don't doubt that. But better rears will mean better cornering stability in the wet and I it's things hitting you side on which hurt the most.

[rah]

No, it will depend on the car and driving style as to the impact rears will make. You could just be understeering into a tree. Its things hitting you from the front that hurt more often.

[Rollo]

I don't doubt that. But better rears will mean better cornering stability in the wet and I it's things hitting you side on which hurt the most.

How? Steering input is through the front wheels (unless you have four wheel steer, or drive a forklift); since steering input is through the front, how does better rears increase cornering stability in any condition let alone the wet?

[Daniel]

No, it will depend on the car and driving style as to the impact rears will make. You could just be understeering into a tree. Its things hitting you from the front that hurt more often.

I can't believe people are saying this on a motorsport forum. The last fatality in the WRC was a side impact, Keith Odor, Ashley Cooper, Zanardi..... need I go on?

Of course nobody wants to have an accident but if you must have one you want to hit it with the beefiest part of your car and that's the front.

To put the best tyres on the front on the basis of handling is a sound argument, but putting the best tyres on the front on the basis of safety is pretty much moronic.

Rollo, the point that manufacturers make is that in the wet having the best tyres on the front makes for very unpredictable handling just when you want the handling to be predictable....... In the dry, tread depth is not as important.

[rah]

Don't get worked up pumpkin. If it makes you feel any better, it have not raced in any international motor sport events recently.

So what are you saying? Put the good ones on the rear if you don't know how to control oversteer?

[MrJan]

I'ver said it before, and I'll say it again, get RWD with a staggered set up and then this problem never arises.

I personally want more tread on the front, with no weight over the front wheels I suffer from chronic understeer in the wet that means I have to be very careful. A bit of slip from the rear is usually easy enough to tame whereas understeer is just hideous. Not many people (comparitively) have cars with the same layout as mine though so it's sort of a moot point.

[Mark]

I have to admit, if I'm going to slide, it's likely to be understeer, mostly from my habit of turning sharply out of roundabouts and booting the throttle, but that's just me having a bit of fun and isn't really a safety related issue.

[Daniel]

I'ver said it before, and I'll say it again, get RWD with a staggered set up and then this problem never arises.

I personally want more tread on the front, with no weight over the front wheels I suffer from chronic understeer in the wet that means I have to be very careful. A bit of slip from the rear is usually easy enough to tame whereas understeer is just hideous. Not many people (comparitively) have cars with the same layout as mine though so it's sort of a moot point.

I can understand that, you've got a car which understeers badly and of course you'd want to compensate for that. But like you say, most people don't have that layout.

No one likes understeer but at least with understeer if you hit something it's likely to be with the front of the car which gives you a better chance of surviving.

The point that the tyre companies make is that understeer in a corner in the wet is easily tamed by a lift of the throttle which is what the everyday driver will do. It's also very easy to see it coming, even the most hamfisted of drivers will feel it through the steering wheel.

But with the best tyres on the front and much worse tyres on the back the car will more easily go into oversteer and in the wet oversteer is a lot less easy to reign in unless you're Jean Ragnotti and despite what most of us like to think, 99.9999% of us aren't.

[Daniel]

l5YsQ_a_ijA

Perfect illustration of my point

[DonJippo]

I can understand that, you've got a car which understeers badly and of course you'd want to compensate for that. But like you say, most people don't have that layout.

No one likes understeer but at least with understeer if you hit something it's likely to be with the front of the car which gives you a better chance of surviving.

The point that the tyre companies make is that understeer in a corner in the wet is easily tamed by a lift of the throttle which is what the everyday driver will do. It's also very easy to see it coming, even the most hamfisted of drivers will feel it through the steering wheel.

But with the best tyres on the front and much worse tyres on the back the car will more easily go into oversteer and in the wet oversteer is a lot less easy to reign in unless you're Jean Ragnotti and despite what most of us like to think, 99.9999% of us aren't.

:up: this and video you posted.

[Daniel]

:up: this and video you posted.

You're a Finn, you would agree with common sense when it comes to safe motoring ;)

[Retro Formula 1]

I have to admit that I thought you were talking tosh Daniel but after a bit of investigation, it seems you are correct and the safest way is to put the new tyres on the rear.

Personally though, I prefer an oversteer car with better braking and accelleration.

[Daniel]

I have to admit that I thought you were talking tosh Daniel but after a bit of investigation, it seems you are correct and the safest way is to put the new tyres on the rear.

Personally though, I prefer an oversteer car with better braking and accelleration.

:)

I prefer a bit of oversteer as well, and that's how I tend to drive with my balance just a touch towards oversteer rather than understeer even though understeer is the fastest way around for a FWD car. But I like the fact that it's me who is initiating the oversteer rather than the nature of the tyres ;)

[tannat]

Thanks for the video, Daniel. You are correct-I am no rally driver.

And while I find the video interesting-and the 'new tires on the front' applicable to the bulk of drivers out there, I'll take oversteer to understeer any day.

I'll probably never do just a two tire purchase. But I will always prefer to have a loose oversteering car to one that understeers.

[Daniel]

Thanks for the video, Daniel. You are correct-I am no rally driver.

And while I find the video interesting-and the 'new tires on the front' applicable to the bulk of drivers out there, I'll take oversteer to understeer any day.

I'll probably never do just a two tire purchase. But I will always prefer to have a loose oversteering car to one that understeers.

Why though? The video shows the clear advantage of having the best tyres on the back on your daily driver.

[tannat]

Why though? The video shows the clear advantage of having the best tyres on the back on your daily driver.

First of all I would never let myself get caught out as the pretty one did in the video.

Secondly, if you are saying to me "Tannat-you really need to drive an understeering car' then I have to say no..

Vanilla or chocolate? Beer or wine? Under or oversteer?

For Tannat it is vanilla, wine, and oversteer :)


Let's have a drink, Daniel :D :beer:

[Brown, Jon Brow]

First of all I would never let myself get caught out as the pretty one did in the video.

Secondly, if you are saying to me "Tannat-you really need to drive an understeering car' then I have to say no..

Vanilla or chocolate? Beer or wine? Under or oversteer?



For Tannat it is vanilla, wine, and oversteer :)


Let's have a drink, Daniel :D :beer:

The 'pretty one in the video' probably has a lot more track driving experience than most of us on here. :p

[Bolton Midnight]

:)

I prefer a bit of oversteer as well, and that's how I tend to drive with my balance just a touch towards oversteer rather than understeer even though understeer is the fastest way around for a FWD car. But I like the fact that it's me who is initiating the oversteer rather than the nature of the tyres ;)

And how do you achieve this then? Rears at 50psi is it?

Back tyres on a FWD car are just there to keep the petrol tank off the ground. If it is a decent chassis it'll lift off oversteer anyroad.

[Daniel]

And how do you achieve this then? Rears at 50psi is it?

Back tyres on a FWD car are just there to keep the petrol tank off the ground. If it is a decent chassis it'll lift off oversteer anyroad.

I use the round thing that controls the direction the front wheels point in, as well as the accelerator, gear stick and brakes

[Rollo]

This has convinced me to change my mind. I have been vanquished by real world data.

Thanks :D

[Daniel]

This has convinced me to change my mind. I have been vanquished by real world data.

Thanks :D

Sarcasm?

[Bolton Midnight]

:)
I prefer a bit of oversteer as well, and that's how I tend to drive with my balance just a touch towards oversteer rather than understeer even though understeer is the fastest way around for a FWD car. But I like the fact that it's me who is initiating the oversteer rather than the nature of the tyres ;)


I use the round thing that controls the direction the front wheels point in, as well as the accelerator, gear stick and brakes

and that changes the set up of the chassis does it? Is this in the scrappage scheme Fiat 500 1.2 then?

you haven't a clue have you, admit it

[Daniel]

and that changes the set up of the chassis does it? Is this in the scrappage scheme Fiat 500 1.2 then?

you haven't a clue have you, admit it

Did I say that? :confused:

Cars can be made to understeer or oversteer as the driver wishes you know!

[driveace]

OK Daniel,tell us how the top saloon car racing teams make their cars oversteer,as most racing drivers like .No bullsh*t as i have worked with them.

[Daniel]

OK Daniel,tell us how the top saloon car racing teams make their cars oversteer,as most racing drivers like .No bullsh*t as i have worked with them.

I'm slightly confused. I never said I know how to set up a car to make it oversteer? I merely said that I like to drive with a tiny little bit of oversteer. Is that allowed of mighty ones? :rotflmao:

[donKey jote]

l5YsQ_a_ijA

Perfect illustration of my point

meh! Woman drivers :p :laugh:


I'm very embarassed to say that I got caught out exactly like the pretty one too :s
I decided to do some (wet) braking tests with my own car at the tracks and swapped my fairly worn but still legal front tyres with my still fairly grooved rear tyres... the result: much smaller than expected difference in stopping distance (smaller than the difference between good and not so good new tyres). On the way home I joined the motorway sideways, despite cornering at speeds well below what I thought would still be OK in the wet conditions. Very lucky nothing else was in the way. :crazy:
did I feel like a right donkey :arrows:
Needless to say I'm more carefull with keeping the front/rear wear difference at a minimum ever since...

[Rollo]

Sarcasm?

No!

You provided actual proof of something. +1 kudos for that.

[Daniel]

No!

You provided actual proof of something. +1 kudos for that.

:)

I think people are making the classic error of confusing handling with safety. Sure your car you will be able to handle "better" with the best tyres on the front because that will give you the most confidence and for instance in the wet it'll give your drive wheels the best traction possible so your front wheels will be doing what you want and will give you a lot of confidence. Like Donkey Jote and Vicki Butler Henderson showed though, this can be a false sense of security.

I've mentioned in the past my dear departed scrappage 406 which is long gone. When I got it the car had the worst tyres I've ever owned on it. Tigar's or some other such crap. To pass it's MOT I got two shiny new Michelin Pilot Primacy's and of course seeing myself as a keen driver I put them on the front because that's what you do right? Well the rears were still legal but very low and one morning I went into a roundabout and was curious to see what a car with such mismatched tyres would handle like in the wet and turned right and gave it some beans in 1st or 2nd gear and lo and behold.... power on oversteer in a front wheel drive car. Now of course I was expecting this and it was all fine but soon after I swapped the Michelin's to the rear and although the front end was terrible, I simply couldn't get up to a speed where I could cause myself any sort of real harm without the car sending me strong signals that I was doing the wrong thing. Of course a few weeks after I got some brand new Conti's for the front and all was good in the world :)

To summarise......

Best tyres on front, you can get up to speeds at which you can have a nice accident without the car really letting you know till it's possibly too late
Best tyres on the rear on a FWD car, the car simply will not let you do something really stupid without practically punching you in the face and letting you know that you're about to kill yourself.

[MrJan]

OK Daniel,tell us how the top saloon car racing teams make their cars oversteer,as most racing drivers like .No bullsh*t as i have worked with them.

He wasn't talking about setup, he was talking about driving style. For example, I drive a rear wheel drive car so if I want oversteer I go slowly into a corner and then turn sharply and boot it. If I want understeer then I make sure to have a fast entry speed, lifting off quickly will switch this to snap oversteer (which will probably end in a tree). I'd have thought that, as a driving instructor, you'd understand those sort of basics about car handling.

[Zico]

None of you are actually wrong. What Daniel says does make perfect sense from a safety point of view.

The best handling fwd car I have ever driven had almost flat cornering, if you went into a corner on//slightly beyond the grip limit neither accelerating nor de-accelerating the car would drift all 4 wheels almost equally with maybe the slightest bias rearwards , if you accelerated the rear would begin to grip as the weight was transferred rearwards and front would begin to understeer slightly and if you de-accelarated the rear would drift out.. on a well known road/corner it was the most amazing thing to go in carrying huge speed, turn in and let off the throttle the rear would come right round the the slide would scrub off the speed catch it with light throttle as you lined up the apex (without having to even touch the brakes) then back on the throttle, hit the apex... it was so rewarding and huge fun, entirely the opposite from a rwd car but the best set-up by far for outright speed, it really rewarded commitment. However on an unknown road or emergency situation it did not give you as much confidence to drive with the same speed and commitment ... I would have felt more at ease with a slightly more understeery car (safety) which kinda fits in with what each of you are saying.. no?

[Daniel]

None of you are actually wrong. What Daniel says does make perfect sense from a safety point of view.

The best handling fwd car I have ever driven had almost flat cornering, if you went into a corner on//slightly beyond the grip limit neither accelerating nor de-accelerating the car would drift all 4 wheels almost equally with maybe the slightest bias rearwards , if you accelerated the rear would begin to grip as the weight was transferred rearwards and front would begin to understeer slightly and if you de-accelarated the rear would drift out.. on a well known road/corner it was the most amazing thing to go in carrying huge speed, turn in and let off the throttle the rear would come right round the the slide would scrub off the speed catch it with light throttle as you lined up the apex (without having to even touch the brakes) then back on the throttle, hit the apex... it was so rewarding and huge fun, entirely the opposite from a rwd car but the best set-up by far for outright speed, it really rewarded commitment. However on an unknown road or emergency situation it did not give you as much confidence to drive with the same speed and commitment ... I would have felt more at ease with a slightly more understeery car (safety) which kinda fits in with what each of you are saying.. no?

The 500 is possibly one of the worst handling cars I've driven. Basically the rear beam is very soft so they increased the stiffness of the rear springs to give it some resistance to roll but a bit too much. The newer cars have a stiffer beam and softer suspension. Definitely something I'll change on the car when it's out of warranty and needs new suspension :D As long as it's not bumpy mid corner it's fun though :D

[Zico]

The 500 is possibly one of the worst handling cars I've driven. Basically the rear beam is very soft so they increased the stiffness of the rear springs to give it some resistance to roll but a bit too much. The newer cars have a stiffer beam and softer suspension. Definitely something I'll change on the car when it's out of warranty and needs new suspension :D As long as it's not bumpy mid corner it's fun though :D

Yep, Its achieved with weight transfer off the outside rear wheel by finding a good tipping point in the cornering balance where the wheel leaves the ground.... Thicker rear ARB. ;)

[Bolton Midnight]

OK Daniel,tell us how the top saloon car racing teams make their cars oversteer,as most racing drivers like .No bullsh*t as i have worked with them.


I don't think he has the first idea what he is talking about.

I haven't a clue what he means by 'my balance just a touch towards oversteer rather than understeer' but there again, neither does he.

Initially I thought he didn't drive and was under 17 but he says otherwise.

[Daniel]

I don't think he has the first idea what he is talking about.

I haven't a clue what he means by 'my balance just a touch towards oversteer rather than understeer' but there again, neither does he.

Initially I thought he didn't drive and was under 17 but he says otherwise.

Any reason for a personal attack on a thread about whether your best tyres should go on the front or back?

[Bolton Midnight]

It is not a personal attack, you clearly know nothing / very little about driving.

But odd you grizzle about personal attacks here yet elsewhere do nothing but name call when stumped.

[Daniel]

It is not a personal attack, you clearly know nothing / very little about driving.

But odd you grizzle about personal attacks here yet elsewhere do nothing but name call when stumped.

The thing is, I never said anything about doing something to the chassis of my car, I was talking about driving. The people whose IQ is out of the single digit range understood what I said perfectly well :laugh:

[Bolton Midnight]

I'm still waiting for you to explain 'my balance just a touch towards oversteer rather than understeer'

What balance, what are you talking about?

Can you change geometry, tyre pressures, brake balance, weight balance from the driving seat on your 1.2 Fiat 500 then?

If anyone did understand then they are probably in the same camp as you are.

Have you ever competed in any form of motor sport at all?

[Daniel]

I'm still waiting for you to explain 'my balance just a touch towards oversteer rather than understeer'

What balance, what are you talking about?

Can you change geometry, tyre pressures, brake balance, weight balance from the driving seat on your 1.2 Fiat 500 then?

If anyone did understand then they are probably in the same camp as you are.

Have you ever competed in any form of motor sport at all?
:laugh:

Perhaps balance may have been the wrong term to use if we're going to be silly as you seem intent on being.

Perhaps if I'd said "I like to drive my car in such a way that it handles with a touch of oversteer rather than understeer". Strangely enough some of the more intelligent people on here realised that this was what I meant.

[Bolton Midnight]

You were trying to sound like you knew what you were on about; when you clearly do not.

If you had said 'your driving style induces oversteer' that could be correct. The way you drive will not alter the car's handling characteristics one iota.

I'll take that as a no then re motor sport shall I?

[Daniel]

You were trying to sound like you knew what you were on about; when you clearly do not.

If you had said 'your driving style induces oversteer' that could be correct. The way you drive will not alter the car's handling characteristics one iota.

I'll take that as a no then re motor sport shall I?

See you're doing that thing where you interpret someone's post wrong and try to score points off it.

I've not competed in any world or nationally sanctioned motorsport, no. Vicki Butler Henderson has though (Most recently in a 500 Abarth actually) and she seems to agree so you don't need to have competed in motorsport to know anything about driving or what difference some chances will make to a car in various conditions.

[Daniel]

Yep, Its achieved with weight transfer off the outside rear wheel by finding a good tipping point in the cornering balance where the wheel leaves the ground.... Thicker rear ARB. ;)

It's a very interesting topic.

One thing which always interested me was the Kinetic hydraulic anti roll device that Citroen used on the Xsara WRC. Being that there was no physical connection by spring from left to right, if one wheel for instance hit a bump in the road, it didn't transmit the load to the other side unsettling the car. This also meant that for instance one wheel could be at full droop whilst the other was at full compression so it allowed for better wheel articulation which is of course a good thing for a rally car. This meant that they could have a car which was soft enough to deal with bumps well but had enough resistance to roll that it could corner well.

[Bolton Midnight]

See you're doing that thing where you interpret someone's post wrong and try to score points off it.

I've not competed in any world or nationally sanctioned motorsport, no. Vicki Butler Henderson has though (Most recently in a 500 Abarth actually) and she seems to agree so you don't need to have competed in motorsport to know anything about driving or what difference some chances will make to a car in various conditions.

No, you were talking out of your backside and I just pointed that out and rather showed you up.

VBH is not an expert, far from it, she's a TV presenter. Her test was very unscientific (was the steering input exactly the same on both tests - no, was the tarmac the same - no her line was completely different) but I guess it would satisfy the unknowledgeable types who watch 5th Gear.

If you are interested read this book

Bob Bondurant on High-Performance Driving [Paperback]

cheap second hand versions on Amazon

[Retro Formula 1]

No, you were talking out of your backside and I just pointed that out and rather showed you up.

VBH is not an expert, far from it, she's a TV presenter. Her test was very unscientific (was the steering input exactly the same on both tests - no, was the tarmac the same - no her line was completely different) but I guess it would satisfy the unknowledgeable types who watch 5th Gear.

If you are interested read this book

Bob Bondurant on High-Performance Driving [Paperback]

cheap second hand versions on Amazon

I think we all know that Daniel hasn't really a clue and was fluffing a bit.

No matter, it does seem that having better tyres of the rear is the safest thing for people that drive in a manner that they're likely to get out of shape going round corners. For these people, it's probably better to give them as much warning with understeer rather than oversteer just in case I'm on the other carriageway :)

But, like I say, I prefer more grip for braking and if a car wants to oversteer when I'm being silly, then so be it ;)

[Bolton Midnight]

I think we all know that Daniel hasn't really a clue and was fluffing a bit.

No matter, it does seem that having better tyres of the rear is the safest thing for people that drive in a manner that they're likely to get out of shape going round corners. For these people, it's probably better to give them as much warning with understeer rather than oversteer just in case I'm on the other carriageway :)

But, like I say, I prefer more grip for braking and if a car wants to oversteer when I'm being silly, then so be it ;)

He appears to think otherwise.

Rear tyres are there to keep my petrol tank off the ground and that is all. I would always put new on the front on mine (FWD) not to mention the whole wear rate thing.

[Retro Formula 1]

On the road car I always put new on the front and move the old front to the rear when the rears need replacing.

On the fun car (RWD) I tend to replace them when half worn but if I've been a bit cheeky, tend to move them forward before putting new boots on the rear. They tend to be slightly harder

On the bike it doesn't matter :laugh:

[Bolton Midnight]

On the road car I always put new on the front and move the old front to the rear when the rears need replacing.

I don't replace them until they are well illegal so that's not an option. It is quite amazing just how much grip is still there on a (decent) basically bald tyre even in the wet. And of course in the dry a bald tyre is better than one with heaps of tread.

[Dave B]

I don't replace them until they are well illegal so that's not an option. It is quite amazing just how much grip is still there on a (decent) basically bald tyre even in the wet. And of course in the dry a bald tyre is better than one with heaps of tread.

Now I know you're trolling.

Aren't you? :\

If not, you're a bigger moron than even I gave you credit for, and that's saying something.

[Retro Formula 1]

While you can get good grip from a near bald tyre in the dry, you're a bloody idiot using illegal tyres in the wet.

Glad you live up North and not down here.

[Bolton Midnight]

You'd think there isn't much grip, but experience shows otherwise. Bit like racing/rallying on the wrong tyre choice, a capable pilot won't crash his slick shod car in the wet, just back off in places.

If you've not tried it then how can you possible comment?

[Daniel]

I think we all know that Daniel hasn't really a clue and was fluffing a bit.

No matter, it does seem that having better tyres of the rear is the safest thing for people that drive in a manner that they're likely to get out of shape going round corners. For these people, it's probably better to give them as much warning with understeer rather than oversteer just in case I'm on the other carriageway :)

But, like I say, I prefer more grip for braking and if a car wants to oversteer when I'm being silly, then so be it ;)

Is there any particular reason you and Bolton Midnight seem to have such a poor understanding of the English language? Other people were intelligent enough to know what I meant especially after repeated clarifications, you and Bolton Midnight continue to try and score some kind of points by making statements based on things you think I said. Why are you and Bolton so incapable of this?

Anyway at least we agree that the safest thing for most people in the wet is to have their best tyres on the rear. Even better is the fact that you don't just replace your tyres when you're told they're illegal :)

[Bolton Midnight]

Is there any particular reason you and Bolton Midnight seem to have such a poor understanding of the English language? Other people were intelligent enough to know what I meant especially after repeated clarifications, you and Bolton Midnight continue to try and score some kind of points by making statements based on things you think I said. Why are you and Bolton so incapable of this?

Anyway at least we agree that the safest thing for most people in the wet is to have their best tyres on the rear. Even better is the fact that you don't just replace your tyres when you're told they're illegal :)

The only person that didn't know what he meant was you, hence why you were talking such crap about the balance of your car like you were some kind of chassis guru, when it was fairly obvious you are pretty clueless.

Accept as much and move on, but buy that book, you'll enjoy it and more importantly you'll learn something (you'll also be safer and faster).

Since when has your average tyre fitter been an expert on anything other than Carling lager and page 3 girls? If I felt it was unsafe I'd not drive my wife and kids about on unsafe tyres would I? You must be a Kwik Fit fitter's wet dream. Why throw something away before it has served it's usefulness?

[Daniel]

The only person that didn't know what he meant was you, hence why you were talking such crap about the balance of your car like you were some kind of chassis guru, when it was fairly obvious you are pretty clueless.

Accept as much and move on, but buy that book, you'll enjoy it and more importantly you'll learn something (you'll also be safer and faster).

Since when has your average tyre fitter been an expert on anything other than Carling lager and page 3 girls? If I felt it was unsafe I'd not drive my wife and kids about on unsafe tyres would I? You must be a Kwik Fit fitter's wet dream. Why throw something away before it has served it's usefulness?

:laugh:

Still you waffle on about chassis balance when I said nothing of the sort :laugh:

Now you're going on about tyre fitters when no one has mentioned tyre fitters :laugh:

[Brown, Jon Brow]

:laugh:

Still you waffle on about chassis balance when I said nothing of the sort :laugh:

Now you're going on about tyre fitters when no one has mentioned tyre fitters :laugh:

It is pretty clear what you meant Daniel. But Bolton Midnight was right because he is always right on everything ever.

[Daniel]

It is pretty clear what you meant Daniel. But Bolton Midnight was right because he is always right on everything ever.

What did you say about his wife? Don't tell me you didn't say it! It's clear that you don't know anything about wives at all! Come on admit it, you've never seen a female sheep with horns, what you probably saw was a goat!

[Brown, Jon Brow]

What did you say about his wife? Don't tell me you didn't say it! It's clear that you don't know anything about wives at all! Come on admit it, you've never seen a female sheep with horns, what you probably saw was a goat!

:laugh:

[Bolton Midnight]

Okay then have it your own way, keep digging rather than just admit you haven't a clue.

So pray, who do you wait to 'tell' (your words not mine) you your tyres are illegal, Five-0 ??

Are you going to buy that book I recommended?

[Bolton Midnight]

It is pretty clear what you meant Daniel. But Bolton Midnight was right because he is always right on everything ever.

No it wasn't, it was dross what he said.

[Daniel]

Okay then have it your own way, keep digging rather than just admit you haven't a clue.

So pray, who do you wait to 'tell' (your words not mine) you your tyres are illegal, Five-0 ??

Are you going to buy that book I recommended?

Nah I'm not going to buy some book reccomended by someone who can barely understand written English. It can't be that good......

If you knew anything about tyres you'd know that they have tread depth indicators built in which show you when you're down to the legal limit of 1.6mm

I also have a tread depth gauge

http://www.comparestoreprices.co.uk/images/sy/sykes-pickavant-tyre-tread-depth-gauge.jpg

[Bolton Midnight]

What did you say about his wife? Don't tell me you didn't say it! It's clear that you don't know anything about wives at all! Come on admit it, you've never seen a female sheep with horns, what you probably saw was a goat!

Stumped so resort to insults, as usual

But talking of sheep, you're the one in Wales boyo

[Daniel]

Stumped so resort to insults, as usual

But talking of sheep, you're the one in Wales boyo

The reason why I'm stumped is because you're asking me to admit to having no clue about something I never said! :laugh:

Keep on digging though! :)

http://www.mining-technology.com/contractor_images/lnh/1-mining-shovel.jpg

[Bolton Midnight]

Nah I'm not going to buy some book reccomended by someone who can barely understand written English. It can't be that good......

If you knew anything about tyres you'd know that they have tread depth indicators built in which show you when you're down to the legal limit of 1.6mm

I also have a tread depth gauge

http://www.comparestoreprices.co.uk/images/sy/sykes-pickavant-tyre-tread-depth-gauge.jpg

Didn't think you would, as usual blissful in your ignorance, try Googling the author's name, granted not as pretty as VBH but a smidgeon more knowledgeable.

So you don't get 'told' your tyres are illegal, why say it then? Have you a mental issue? Seriously you seem some what deluded and confused.

[Mark]

Quit the insults please. All of you.

[Daniel]

Didn't think you would, as usual blissful in your ignorance, try Googling the author's name, granted not as pretty as VBH but a smidgeon more knowledgeable.

So you don't get 'told' your tyres are illegal, why say it then? Have you a mental issue? Seriously you seem some what deluded and confused.

Well dear chap there are a number of ways in which you could be told that your tyres are illegal.

One could take their vehicle to an establishment where an employee employed by afforementioned establishment might observe that your tyres appear to be below the legal tread limit. At this point he might advise or "tell" (the present tense form of told) you that your tyres do not have sufficient tread on them for them to be legal to use on a public highway.

There are numerous other ways in which you could be "told" that your tyres aren't legal anymore. If you want more, I can think of some ridiculously circuitous way of explaining it to you.

[Bolton Midnight]

Well dear chap there are a number of ways in which you could be told that your tyres are illegal.

One could take their vehicle to an establishment where an employee employed by afforementioned establishment might observe that your tyres appear to be below the legal tread limit. At this point he might advise or "tell" (the present tense form of told) you that your tyres do not have sufficient tread on them for them to be legal to use on a public highway.

That would be a tyre fitter would it not?

[Daniel]

That would be a tyre fitter would it not?

Quite right old bean. No one at an accident repair place, garage or any other place is allowed to just even look at tyres right?

[Bolton Midnight]

Quit the insults please. All of you.

It's not an insult, it was a genuine question. 25% of the Nation suffer with mental health problems.

His inability to admit he was wrong is a classic symptom.

The Welsh thing, yep fair cop, but I thought less than mentioning wives.

[Bolton Midnight]

Quite right old bean. No one at an accident repair place, garage or any other place is allowed to just even look at tyres right?

But again, some oily rag at you local Fiat dealer is no expert on tyres, agreed? They would actually know less than Kwik Fit about tyres.

[Daniel]

But again, some oily rag at you local Fiat dealer is no expert on tyres, agreed? They would actually know less than Kwik Fit about tyres.

Bolton Midnight, the law is that there must be a MINIMUM of 1.6mm of tread on the central 3/4 of the tyre. It doesn't take an expert to see this.

I'm done with this thread and I'm also done with your rather obvious trolling.

[Sonic]

To move things back on topic, I wonder about the logic of understeer being easier to control than oversteer. In my experience even the most novice of driver will turn into a skid from the rear wheels naturally - certainly not always holding the car but nevertheless the basic technique is correct.

Whereas the same novice (and plenty of old hands) when faced with a lack of front end grip will blindly twirl on more lock before admitting defeat and then hitting the brakes before sliding straight off the road. How many times do you come up to a roundabout and see the skid marks leading inevitably to the kerb or the chevron signs? Hell, I even saw one just last week where the driver had crashed 3/4 of the way round in a clearly understeering situation.

Thoughts? (polite ones ;) )

[Daniel]

To move things back on topic, I wonder about the logic of understeer being easier to control than oversteer. In my experience even the most novice of driver will turn into a skid from the rear wheels naturally - certainly not always holding the car but nevertheless the basic technique is correct.

Whereas the same novice (and plenty of old hands) when faced with a lack of front end grip will blindly twirl on more lock before admitting defeat and then hitting the brakes before sliding straight off the road. How many times do you come up to a roundabout and see the skid marks leading inevitably to the kerb or the chevron signs? Hell, I even saw one just last week where the driver had crashed 3/4 of the way round in a clearly understeering situation.

Thoughts? (polite ones ;) )

Well I think both schools of thought have merit. Whilst it's not natural to wind lock off whilst understeering, it is natural to back off the power which helps to tame understeer. In a FWD car the worse thing you can do is to lift when a car is oversteering which is a natural thing to do. In a RWD car dealing with oversteer is far more natural. Either way with the best tyres on the rear you're going to feel any loss of grip through the steering far better than the other way round ;) Knowing how to catch a slide is academic if you don't feel the car starting to slide ;)

A bit more on topic than tonights ramblings, what is the correct way to rotate tyres?

http://hogantire.com/tcrotation.htm

I've always rotated tyres as in figure A, though with the winter tyres I've got which are directional the only way to rotate the tyres is figure D. I'm wondering if it's best to rotate my tyres as in figure B because as you'd expect, the front left has worn the most and the right rear the least so obviously this would help even out things a bit and of course the tyres which came off the front in November have done 10.5k miles on the front as opposed to the ones which were only on the front for just under 6k miles.

[Bolton Midnight]

Bolton Midnight, the law is that there must be a MINIMUM of 1.6mm of tread on the central 3/4 of the tyre. It doesn't take an expert to see this.

I'm done with this thread and I'm also done with your rather obvious trolling.

Really

I guess that is as near to an admission of talking crap as you can manage.

[Bolton Midnight]

Well I think both schools of thought have merit. Whilst it's not natural to wind lock off whilst understeering, it is natural to back off the power which helps to tame understeer. In a FWD car the worse thing you can do is to lift when a car is oversteering which is a natural thing to do. In a RWD car dealing with oversteer is far more natural. Either way with the best tyres on the rear you're going to feel any loss of grip through the steering far better than the other way round ;) Knowing how to catch a slide is academic if you don't feel the car starting to slide ;)



In view of your signature, amazed you haven't extolled the virtues of LFB.

[Retro Formula 1]

Bolton Midnight, the law is that there must be a MINIMUM of 1.6mm of tread on the central 3/4 of the tyre. It doesn't take an expert to see this.

I'm done with this thread and I'm also done with your rather obvious trolling.

I think you mean on a normal road car and has to be around the complete circumference of the tyre but I'm just Trolling ;)

[Daniel]

I think you mean on a normal road car and has to be around the complete circumference of the tyre but I'm just Trolling ;)

I do ;) And yes you're right, it's around the whole circumference of the tyre ;)

[Zico]

It's a very interesting topic.

One thing which always interested me was the Kinetic hydraulic anti roll device that Citroen used on the Xsara WRC. Being that there was no physical connection by spring from left to right, if one wheel for instance hit a bump in the road, it didn't transmit the load to the other side unsettling the car. This also meant that for instance one wheel could be at full droop whilst the other was at full compression so it allowed for better wheel articulation which is of course a good thing for a rally car. This meant that they could have a car which was soft enough to deal with bumps well but had enough resistance to roll that it could corner well.

They dont use it now though do they? wasn't it banned? It must have helped 'wheel articulation' performance a lot yet I imagine steering feedback would be much reduced. Ford copied Peugeot front ARB mount design used on hotter models, (GTI/Rallye etc) on the mk1 Focus which is supposed to be what gave the Focus such great steering feedback.





To move things back on topic, I wonder about the logic of understeer being easier to control than oversteer. In my experience even the most novice of driver will turn into a skid from the rear wheels naturally - certainly not always holding the car but nevertheless the basic technique is correct.

Whereas the same novice (and plenty of old hands) when faced with a lack of front end grip will blindly twirl on more lock before admitting defeat and then hitting the brakes before sliding straight off the road. How many times do you come up to a roundabout and see the skid marks leading inevitably to the kerb or the chevron signs? Hell, I even saw one just last week where the driver had crashed 3/4 of the way round in a clearly understeering situation.

Thoughts? (polite ones ;) )


As pointed out, in a rwd car letting off the throttle and steering into the slide is the natural and correct thing to do, however... when it happens in a FWD car you should accelerate .. totally against natural instincts.... and on an unknown road/corner when you know you have to get on or stay on that throttle often to find the corner tighten can really leave you with your heart in your mouth and unable to drive the car fully commited than you could in a rear stable understeery fwd car.

On a known road or the circuit though it will totally destroy the 'rear stable understeery' fwd car... and most things! ;)

[Daniel]

They dont use it now though do they? wasn't it banned? It must have helped 'wheel articulation' performance a lot yet I imagine steering feedback would be much reduced. Ford copied Peugeot front ARB mount design used on hotter models, (GTI/Rallye etc) on the mk1 Focus which is supposed to be what gave the Focus such great steering feedback.

Not sure regarding the steering feedback tbh. It was banned though. I think the Xsara didn't run it in the last year when they were running as Kronos Citroen though it could have been earlier.....



As pointed out, in a rwd car letting off the throttle and steering into the slide is the natural and correct thing to do, however... when it happens in a FWD car you should accelerate .. totally against natural instincts.... and on an unknown road/corner when you know you have to get on or stay on that throttle often to find the corner tighten can really leave you with your heart in your mouth and unable to drive the car fully commited than you could in a rear stable understeery fwd car.

On a known road or the circuit though it will totally destroy the 'rear stable understeery' fwd car... and most things! ;)
Properly driving a FWD car requires a lot of confidence and skill which most of us don't have sadly!!!!! I can get into a kart or a RWD car on gravel and I'll happily drive quickly but FWD is just a bit intimidating to me and unnatural. That said I'm happy to have a FWD car when it's snowing. You just point the front wheels where you want to go and put your foot down. Strangely enough I felt very comforable driving in the snow and overtaking people though, go figure.

[Bolton Midnight]

That said I'm happy to have a FWD car when it's snowing. You just point the front wheels where you want to go and put your foot down. Strangely enough I felt very comforable driving in the snow and overtaking people though, go figure.

No I can't

Can I have your autograph snow master