North Korea shoots refugees on China border

[Garry Walker]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/01/11/3110782.htm?section=justin

North Korean border guards have reportedly shot dead five refugees after pursuing them across the border into China.

Any comments regarding this from our north-korea defending moron posters? How will this be spun into blaming America?

[Retro Formula 1]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/01/11/3110782.htm?section=justin


Any comments regarding this from our north-korea defending moron posters? How will this be spun into blaming America?

I think one of the refugees punched a guard so it was justifiable murder because the guards had guns :D

[Mark]

I don't think there's much justification available for North Korea, they are completely mental.

[Dave B]

They truly are bonkers, aren't they? If it weren't for the fact they're so bloody dangerous somebody could write a good sitcom about the Kim Jongs.

[555-04Q2]

Its just the leader and his sons that are bonkers. The average North Korean citizens are actually quite pleasant.

[markabilly]

they are all upset, because Putin, China and South Korea get to have F1 races, but not North Korea

[Daniel]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/01/11/3110782.htm?section=justin


Any comments regarding this from our north-korea defending moron posters? How will this be spun into blaming America?
As opposed to the average right wing fool who thinks that someone is going to defend refugees being shot.

[billiaml]

Its just the leader and his sons that are bonkers. The average North Korean citizens are actually quite pleasant.

As the saying goes, "the nuts don't fall far from the tree."

[Eki]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/01/11/3110782.htm?section=justin


Any comments regarding this from our north-korea defending moron posters? How will this be spun into blaming America?
Hunger and poverty are largely due to the sanctions by the US.

[Eki]

Its just the leader and his sons that are bonkers. The average North Korean citizens are actually quite pleasant.
Funny how four "bonkers" people can control millions who aren't, and at least a million of them are armed (the military). Those border guards would probably be quite pleasant too, if others would be pleasant enough for not to be defectors.

[schmenke]

I can't help but think that this would not be the first time refugees trying to escape from NK have been shot.

[Garry Walker]

As opposed to the average right wing fool who thinks that someone is going to defend refugees being shot.

Well, thankfully our resident retard didnt dissapoint me.


Funny how four "bonkers" people can control millions who aren't, and at least a million of them are armed (the military). Those border guards would probably be quite pleasant too, if others would be pleasant enough for not to be defectors.

[Garry Walker]

Hunger and poverty are largely due to the sanctions by the US.

:rotflmao:

[markabilly]

Just typical of what happens when you disarm the populace and force them to live according to how the despot wants them to live...or they get killed. Simple stuff.

[Sonic]

They truly are bonkers, aren't they? If it weren't for the fact they're so bloody dangerous somebody could write a good sitcom about the Kim Jongs.

Already have. I wonder what old Kimmy thought of team America World Police? :D

Matt Damon! ;)

[Eki]

Just typical of what happens when you disarm the populace and force them to live according to how the despot wants them to live...or they get killed. Simple stuff.
Disarm? There are about 1 million people out of the total population of 23 million in arms (the military) plus a reserve of about 8 million:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_People's_Army

I'd call that arming, not disarming.

[Bob Riebe]

Hunger and poverty are largely due to the sanctions by the US.
So that explains why they shoot people trying to get out?
U.S. sanctions, hmm, I did not know we controlled the Chinese that completely.
Heck we can not stop Mexicans from crossing our border, how do we stop China from crossing into N. Korea to feed the N. Koreans?

[Eki]

So that explains why they shoot people trying to get out?
No, it explains people trying to get out. People trying to get out explains shooting them.


U.S. sanctions, hmm, I did not know we controlled the Chinese that completely.

It wasn't the Chinese border guards, it was the North Korean.



Heck we can not stop Mexicans from crossing our border, how do we stop China from crossing into N. Korea to feed the N. Koreans?
Why should the Chinese alone feed the North Koreans? Why doesn't the whole world chip in? Why should anyone try to hamper North Korea from prospering?

[Bob Riebe]

No, it explains people trying to get out. People trying to get out explains shooting them.


It wasn't the Chinese border guards, it was the North Korean.


Why should the Chinese alone feed the North Koreans? Why doesn't the whole world chip in? Why should anyone try to hamper North Korea from prospering?
No one doesl
China borders North Korea, why don't they try to feed them.
How can the U.S. stop them?
You said it is the United States's fault, so you must think that the U.S. is somehow stopping the Chinese from shipping food across the border.

How does that work?

[Eki]

No one doesl
China borders North Korea, why don't they try to feed them.
How can the U.S. stop them?
You said it is the United States's fault, so you must think that the U.S. is somehow stopping the Chinese from shipping food across the border.

How does that work?
Why doesn't the US feed the Mexicans to stop them coming across the border looking for better life?

[Bob Riebe]

Why doesn't the US feed the Mexicans to stop them coming across the border looking for better life?
Stay on topic, defend your statement that the U.S. is at fault.

Mexicans do not cross the border for food, never have.

[Eki]

Stay on topic, defend your statement that the U.S. is at fault.

Mexicans do not cross the border for food, never have.
For what then? Better climate?

[Bob Riebe]

For what then? Better climate?

Employment.

My Grandfather employed Mexican transient worker eighty years ago, and there was a population that came up to Minn. every year. Some stayed but some commuted back and forth every year.

Get back to the topic, or has your rhetoric fallen down around your ankles like your pants?

[Eki]

Employment.

So they didn't need employment to get food, just to have something to do to pass time?

[glauistean]

So they didn't need employment to get food, just to have something to do to pass time?

That was the best baiting I have seen in a long time. He fell in and probably believes he did not. :D

[Bob Riebe]

So they didn't need employment to get food, just to have something to do to pass time?
If you want to start a circular argument, go prattle on with glauistean.

Otherwise pull your pants up and get back on topic.

[markabilly]

That was the best baiting I have seen in a long time. He fell in and probably believes he did not. :D

guistem, you are back! For a moment I thought maybe you were in Arizona, but now you are posting, I figure that was not you after all.....

Does this comment mean that you are no longer dating Eki? :confused:

the two of you would make a geat pair....little Ekiglues or gluekis, running all over the house.

Just don't look in the mirror

[markabilly]

If you want to start a circular argument, go prattle on with glauistean.

Otherwise pull your pants up and get back on topic.

Give him a break.....it is probably very hard to pull up his pants when he is on his knees

[Roamy]

Hunger and poverty are largely due to the sanctions by the US.

What the hell are we - The world's supermarket.

[Roamy]

Its just the leader and his sons that are bonkers. The average North Korean citizens are actually quite pleasant.

And here is the problem - These horrible leader are going to screw around and get innocent good people killed.

I am now into cruise bullets - just take out the leaders.

The problem with these nuts is they will end up screwing around with nukes and never need heating oil again

[Valve Bounce]

Its just the leader and his sons that are bonkers. The average North Korean citizens are actually quite pleasant.
Yeah! I regularly go to all night karoake sessions with them.

[Valve Bounce]

Funny how four "bonkers" people can control millions who aren't, and at least a million of them are armed (the military). Those border guards would probably be quite pleasant too, if others would be pleasant enough for not to be defectors.

Eki,, you have never been to Korea, I presume, and you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. I really can't go into the subject of the secret police there at the moment; I am thinking of better things - like a ski holiday in Japan.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Eki, you must laugh when you write this stuff. No sane soul could write what you do and expect to be taken seriously.

The reason the North Koreans are eating grass and starving isn't because the US is starving them, they are starving because their leader is scared to ever let up on their throats for 4 seconds to let them have a life. There is a centrally planned economy that trades only with China. Other nations would trade with them, but alas, no one in North Korea really makes anything anyone would want, because of course, the midget running the country stomps out any attempt to do anything better than he does. The Peter principle run amok.

Last I looked, the US was one of the few nations sending food stuffs in there....and has been. One only has to look at the two Koreas to know which one is run by idiots....

Now I am sure you will find something to pick at Eki, but for the sane and maybe those who don't know, you, I went through the motion of refuting your silly assertion.

[Eki]

Yeah! I regularly go to all night karoake sessions with them.
In North Korea, or with North Koreans who have managed to get out of there?

The average North Korean who has never been outside North Korea, doesn't have access to foreign news media and cannot be in contact with foreigners probably believe their government propaganda, which says North Korea is the greatest country in the world, others have it worse and their hardships are caused by the evil western imperialists who are a constant threat to them and out to get them because they're jealous.

[markabilly]

In North Korea, or with North Koreans who have managed to get out of there?

The average North Korean who has never been outside North Korea, doesn't have access to foreign news media and cannot be in contact with foreigners probably believe their government propaganda, which says North Korea is the greatest country in the world, others have it worse and their hardships are caused by the evil western imperialists who are a constant threat to them and out to get them because they're jealous.
and what if they did have access?
They have no guns and would all be shot dead for standing up....so they crawl. :rolleyes:

[Eki]

and what if they did have access?
They have no guns and would all be shot dead for standing up....so they crawl. :rolleyes:
If they don't have guns, how did those border guards shoot those refugees? You're not being logical. What keeps their military of 1 million + 8 million in reserve from turning against Kim Il Jong and his sons?

[Firstgear]

In North Korea, or with North Koreans who have managed to get out of there?

The average North Korean who has never been outside North Korea, doesn't have access to foreign news media and cannot be in contact with foreigners probably believe their government propaganda, which says North Korea is the greatest country in the world, others have it worse and their hardships are caused by the evil western imperialists who are a constant threat to them and out to get them because they're jealous.

This explains why people are risking their lives trying to get out. They're tired of living in the best country in the world, and are longing for the hardships of the west. :rolleyes:

[Eki]

This explains why people are risking their lives trying to get out. They're tired of living in the best country in the world, and are longing for the hardships of the west. :rolleyes:
The majority isn't risking their lives trying to get out.

[gloomyDAY]

What the hell are we - The world's supermarket.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I wouldn't toss a bone to North Korea. Let them suffer and fail.

[Valve Bounce]

The majority isn't risking their lives trying to get out.

Maybe they are not that keen to get shot! I'm just guessing here, so help me out on this, Eki.

[Eki]

Maybe they are not that keen to get shot! I'm just guessing here, so help me out on this, Eki.
Then they aren't desperate enough. My great grandfather joined the Finnish Red Guard with tens of thousands of others after he had lost his job and his family needed food in 1918 and the Finnish Civil War began.

[Bob Riebe]

Why would they do that? It's quite obviously the best country in the world to live in. I'm sure you're packing all your things now in anticipating your emigration.
NO, no- North Korea is run by people similar to you who would only give guns to the police and military.

[janvanvurpa]

Why doesn't the US feed the Mexicans to stop them coming across the border looking for better life?

Eki, just trying to help you out here---ask him why US troops shoot US citizens who aren't even trying to leave?
Ask him if he knows when US troops last were shooting American citizens...

And why.

Seems some Americans, usually so gung-ho about law-n-order, are puzzled when other countries apply their laws to their own lawbreakers.

There's 2,500,000 Koreans in China, maybe these poor souls were just going top say Hi to Auntie 4....

[janvanvurpa]

So they didn't need employment to get food, just to have something to do to pass time?

Hey Eki, you know i'm half-Latino. So you know we're all "loco" and always like dancing and driinking beer and chasing "cutinas" and the food is so hot it'll burn all the hair off your tongue---maybe they went up North just to like recover, you know with nice quiet boring Swedes and Norwegians in Minnesota and eat nice reasonable boring boiled potatis--like a spa to recover in before they got back to being crazy again.

If they're all crazy, then it makes sense!

[markabilly]

Hey Eki, you know i'm half-Latino. So you know we're all "loco" and always like dancing and driinking beer and chasing "cutinas" and the food is so hot it'll burn all the hair off your tongue---maybe they went up North just to like recover, you know with nice quiet boring Swedes and Norwegians in Minnesota and eat nice reasonable boring boiled potatis--like a spa to recover in before they got back to being crazy again.

If they're all crazy, then it makes sense!
explains much of nothing but be careful you will make gluie jealous

[Eki]

Eki, just trying to help you out here---ask him why US troops shoot US citizens who aren't even trying to leave?
Ask him if he knows when US troops last were shooting American citizens...

And why.

Seems some Americans, usually so gung-ho about law-n-order, are puzzled when other countries apply their laws to their own lawbreakers.

There's 2,500,000 Koreans in China, maybe these poor souls were just going top say Hi to Auntie 4....
Kent State shootings? Or have there been more recent ones?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings

According to Bob, those students would have been safe if they had been armed. Well, in this case it was the National Guard who turned against their citizens, not the US military, so maybe the rule doesn't apply.

[Eki]

The North Koreans could do as the Tunisians if they were really fed up (no pun intended):

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/01/15/shops-sacked-train-station-burned-tunisia/

[Malbec]

What keeps their military of 1 million + 8 million in reserve from turning against Kim Il Jong and his sons?

The military are accorded extensive perks, the top brass have a living standard Westerners can only dream of whilst the rank and file get something their fellow citizens don't get, enough food not to starve. Its enough to keep them loyal.

Ditto valvebounce's comments re: the North Korean secret police. They make the Gestapo look like tree-hugging hippies.

[Bob Riebe]

Kent State shootings? Or have there been more recent ones?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings

According to Bob, those students would have been safe if they had been armed. Well, in this case it was the National Guard who turned against their citizens, not the US military, so maybe the rule doesn't apply.
No I did not, you are speaking like a fool.

Hmm, forty years ago, oooh, if it makes you feel better I do beilieve the military has fired on U.S. civilians beyond just that one.
Just shows, if authorities, holding a firearm, tell you to cease and desist, do not reach for the gun-barrel or stupidity has just rewards.

I have no sympathy for the dead.

[Bob Riebe]

Hey Eki, you know i'm half-Latino. So you know we're all "loco" and always like dancing and driinking beer and chasing "cutinas" and the food is so hot it'll burn all the hair off your tongue---maybe they went up North just to like recover, you know with nice quiet boring Swedes and Norwegians in Minnesota and eat nice reasonable boring boiled potatis--like a spa to recover in before they got back to being crazy again.


No wonder the Latinos were supposedly crazy, the vast majority of Europeans in Minn. were of hard-nosed German descent. So you are saying the Latinos came up here on a snipe hunt?

[Daniel]

No I did not, you are speaking like a fool.

Hmm, forty years ago, oooh, if it makes you feel better I do beilieve the military has fired on U.S. civilians beyond just that one.
Just shows, if authorities, holding a firearm, tell you to cease and desist, do not reach for the gun-barrel or stupidity has just rewards.

I have no sympathy for the dead.

I don't quite get it. Are you saying that you should listen to the authorities or pull guns on them and have a shootout?

[markabilly]

I don't quite get it. Are you saying that you should listen to the authorities or pull guns on them and have a shootout?

I was thinking you should pull out your gun on them and have a shootout.

no doubt many would die from laughter or tears, assuming they could see well enough... :D :grenade:

[Eki]

No I did not, you are speaking like a fool.

Hmm, forty years ago, oooh, if it makes you feel better I do beilieve the military has fired on U.S. civilians beyond just that one.
Just shows, if authorities, holding a firearm, tell you to cease and desist, do not reach for the gun-barrel or stupidity has just rewards.

I have no sympathy for the dead.

Then you probably don't have sympathy for the shot North Koreans either, or for any dead for that matter.

[Bob Riebe]

I don't quite get it. Are you saying that you should listen to the authorities or pull guns on them and have a shootout?If they point guns at you and tell you to disperse- disperse.
It was not a civil rights protest, it was a we are bored, let's push our luck protest.

[Bob Riebe]

Then you probably don't have sympathy for the shot North Koreans either, or for any dead for that matter.

North Koreans, not really, they are the ones who let their country go to into the pot for them.
Instead of getting killed running away, get killed trying to fix your damned country.

Your second point is only based on your narrow view of things.

[Valve Bounce]

North Koreans, not really, they are the ones who let their country go to into the pot for them.
Instead of getting killed running away, get killed trying to fix your damned country.

Your second point is only based on your narrow view of things.

I agree. All they had to do was pick up their kitchen knives and charge at the troops. With some luck, one of the troops might die laughing.

[markabilly]

I agree. All they had to do was pick up their kitchen knives and charge at the troops. With some luck, one of the troops might die laughing.

or their rifles and pistols....oh opps, they got no guns and do not seem to have the wherewithall to be able to get or steal them.. :confused: .....well that is certainly one of the big advantages of being a despot in control of an unarmed peasant society :D

better to crawl on the knees.......

[Eki]

or their rifles and pistols....oh opps, they got no guns and do not seem to have the wherewithall to be able to get or steal them.. :confused: .....well that is certainly one of the big advantages of being a despot in control of an unarmed peasant society :D

better to crawl on the knees.......

The military is armed and is made mostly from ordinary North Korean conscripts. The Russian revolution started largely from the military, the grunts killed their officers. And in many countries military coops are almost national pastime.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

North Koreans, not really, they are the ones who let their country go to into the pot for them.
Instead of getting killed running away, get killed trying to fix your damned country.


Brainwashed from propaganda, no access to outside media. How are they supposed to know that their country needs fixed? Their world is all that they know, they don't know that they could have it better.

Your comment disgusts me. :down:

[Malbec]

Brainwashed from propaganda, no access to outside media. How are they supposed to know that their country needs fixed? Their world is all that they know, they don't know that they could have it better.

To be fair there are large North Korean communities in both China and Japan that communicate with their home countries enough for the general population to know that the world outside is substantially wealthier than they are.

That said, the North Koreans have never had an opportunity to overthrow their government. They are unarmed and starving and the military remains loyal to the regime. Bob, what would you do if you were in North Korea?

[Bob Riebe]

Brainwashed from propaganda, no access to outside media. How are they supposed to know that their country needs fixed? Their world is all that they know, they don't know that they could have it better.

Your comment disgusts me. :down:
Let us go as far back as WWII- so you are saying the N. Korean people are and have been for sixty years just too damn ignorant or stupid, despite fighting Japanese, and then attacking South Korea, to know what is going on else where?
You are saying they think misery is normal?

Well now, that disgusts me.

[Eki]

Let us go as far back as WWII- so you are saying the N. Korean people are and have been for sixty years just too damn ignorant or stupid, despite fighting Japanese, and then attacking South Korea, to know what is going on else where?
You are saying they think misery is normal?

Well now, that disgusts me.

Those people are over 70. Do you think people over 70 will start a revolution? And until 1980s they were doing quite well. The demise of the Soviet Union and the sanctions since 1990s hit them hard:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_North_Korea#Economic_decline


Due to a series of ill fortuned policy decisions concerning military expenditures and mining industries and the radical changes in international oil prices by the late seventies, the North Korean economy began to slow down. These decisions eventually affected the whole economy, forcing the nation to acquire external debts. At the same time North Korea's policy of self-reliance and the antagonism of America and its allies made it difficult for them to expand foreign trade or secure credit.
In the 1970s, expansion of North Korea's economy, with the accompanying rise in living standards, came to an end and a few decades later went into reverse.Compounding this was a decision to borrow foreign capital and invest heavily in military industries. North Korea's desire to lessen its dependence on aid from China and the Soviet Union prompted the expansion of its military power, which had begun in the second half of the 1960s. The government believed such expenditures could be covered by foreign borrowing and increased sales of its mineral wealth in the international market. North Korea invested heavily in its mining industries and purchased a large quantity of mineral extraction infrastructure from abroad. However, soon after making such investments, international prices for many of North Korea's native minerals fell, leaving the country with large debts and an inability to pay them off and still provide a high level of social welfare to its people.[5]
Worsening this already poor situation, the centrally planned economy, which emphasized heavy industry, had reached the limits of its productive potential in North Korea. Juche repeated demands that North Koreans learn to build and innovate domestically had run its course as had the ability of North Koreans to keep technological pace with other industrialized nations. By the mid to late-1970s some parts of the capitalist world, including South Korea, were creating new industries based around computers, electronics, and other advanced technology in contrast to North Korea's Stalinist economy of mining and steel production.[6]
Continuing an ideology that had once been highly successful, Kim Il-Sung was unable to respond effectively to the challenge of an increasingly prosperous and well-armed South Korea, which undermined the legitimacy of his own regime. Having failed at their earlier attempt to conduct market-economy reforms such as those carried out in China by Deng Xiaoping, Kim opted for continued ideological purity, inasmuch as he had no understanding at all of market economics. The DPRK by 1980 was faced with the choice of either repaying its international loans, or continuing its support of social welfare for its people. Given the ideals of Juche, North Korea chose to default on its loans and by the late 1980s its industrial output was declining.[6] A 1984 visit to Pyongyang by CCP General Secretary Hu Yaobang was received politely, but failed to sell Kim on reforms.
North Korea again drifted towards the Soviet Union after Kim visited Moscow in 1984 (his first trip there since 1966). However, DPRK-USSR relations ran out of gas by 1986. The basic nature of Pyongyang's political system was very different from Moscow's. The Korean Workers Party still existed, but it was essentially ceremonial and had long since been subordinated to Kim's personal dictatorship. Moreover, his Juche philosophy had effectively replaced Marxism-Leninism as North Korea's official ideology (as outlined in the 1974 constitution). In addition, the personality cult of Kim had assumed grotesque proportions not seen anywhere else in the world. Most of this (as well as the Juche philosophy) was the work of his son Kim Jong-Il, who had been officially nominated his father's successor in 1980. The elder Kim was unmoved by the reforms of Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev, and this contributed to the decline in relations with Moscow. Chinese reforms also had little effect in North Korea, as did the fall of communism in Eastern Europe during 1989. China endured a period of international isolation after the Tiananmen Square Massacre, which caused it to embrace Pyongyang as one of the world's only surviving communist states. Even so, China participated in the 1988 Summer Olympics in South Korea and in 1990 agreed to recognize both Korean governments equally.
The collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991 deprived North Korea of its main source of economic aid, leaving China as the isolated regime's only major ally. Without Soviet aid, North Korea's economy went into a free-fall. Kim Jong Il was already conducting most of the day-to-day running of the state, and apparently kept his father in the dark about the growing economic disaster. Also at this time, North Korea was attracting the ire of the international community for its attempts at developing nuclear weapons. Former US president Jimmy Carter made a visit to Pyongyang in June 1994 in which he met with Kim and returned proclaiming that he had settled the nuclear question.

[Valve Bounce]

Eki, I think you really need to study your subject matter a little more before going in deep about North Korea. For its population, Korea has always been short of arable land, and when I was working in South Korea, it was easily seen that the South Koreans used up every possible piece of land for growing something. In winter, when the rice fields were frozen over, the south Koreans constructed structures with plastic covering resembling Quonset huts http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&=&q=quonset+hut&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq= where they grew fresh vegetables and even some fruits. Road embankments were cultivated to grow melons, and where new diversions were built on highways, the old alignments were cultivated to grow vegetables and rice. When I was there, the restaurants all over the country mixed around 10% barley with rice so that just after I left Korea they became self sufficient in rice production and did not have to import rice. These were a very hard working people. When I visited the Sisters of Mercy (during an adoption procedure investigation for my sister), they told me that they had girls living there who worked in clothing factories who saw the sun once a fortnight on their day off. These people worked very hard, and the object was to get the first born son into school, then university who will then look after their families. Their Capital system obviously worked when you see how that country has advanced with what they manufacture for world wide consumption.

The harsh Communist system in North Korea is not geared for anything remotely like this; it is a place where unless the young people joined the army or starve. Their geography/terrain is not suitable for large scale agriculture. They simply don't have the human resources (after the army intake) to produce anywhere near the food to sustain the entire population. So they have to starve.

I hope this helps you understand the two Koreas a little better.

[Mark in Oshawa]

To be fair there are large North Korean communities in both China and Japan that communicate with their home countries enough for the general population to know that the world outside is substantially wealthier than they are.

That said, the North Koreans have never had an opportunity to overthrow their government. They are unarmed and starving and the military remains loyal to the regime. Bob, what would you do if you were in North Korea?

It is a valid question. I don't blame the North Korean people for not overthrowing this despot, but it is clear that the people surrounding this clown are the same level of criminal their leader is.

One thing is for sure, North Korea is one of the world's most repressive regimes. For anyone to defend what they do to their own people as some how someone else's fault like Eki is prone to do is just a fallacy.

North Korea will be a hell hole for some time to come, because the people who choose to run the country would rather starve their own than reliquish power or open up the nation to enter the rest of the world in trade in a meaningful way.

One only has to look at the powerhouse that South Korea is becoming in business and commerce to understand the Korean people are as hardy and hard working as those living in any nation......but the North Korean regime wont harness this ability for anything than goose stepping for propaganda cameras.

[Roamy]

So what is the answer here - let them continue on until they become more and more powerful?? You need to get the russians pissed off at them. They would eliminate the military and all the leaders and the world would not give a damn. Actually China could do it as well. People are so scared they may have to pay for something that is created in their own country, they will not care who China pops.

The only good thing here is I should be about done before Korea or Iran can reach this far. So on with golf and flyfishing and jostling with the TIRE's :)

[Brown, Jon Brow]

So what is the answer here - let them continue on until they become more and more powerful?? You need to get the russians pissed off at them. They would eliminate the military and all the leaders and the world would not give a damn. Actually China could do it as well. People are so scared they may have to pay for something that is created in their own country, they will not care who China pops.

The only good thing here is I should be about done before Korea or Iran can reach this far. So on with golf and flyfishing and jostling with the TIRE's :)

Are you still living in the Cold War?

[Mark in Oshawa]

Best way to deal with North Korea? Isolate them, and let the Chinese deal with it, since the Chinese wont let anyone actually do anything constructive with North Korea....

[schmenke]

As long as the nut-jobs are in power in NK, they will remain a major importer of Chinese goods, specifically weapons.

[markabilly]

Eki, I think you really need to study your subject matter a little more before going in deep about North Korea. For its population, Korea has always been short of arable land, and when I was working in South Korea, it was easily seen that the South Koreans used up every possible piece of land for growing something. In winter, when the rice fields were frozen over, the south Koreans constructed structures with plastic covering resembling Quonset huts http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&=&q=quonset+hut&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq= where they grew fresh vegetables and even some fruits. Road embankments were cultivated to grow melons, and where new diversions were built on highways, the old alignments were cultivated to grow vegetables and rice. When I was there, the restaurants all over the country mixed around 10% barley with rice so that just after I left Korea they became self sufficient in rice production and did not have to import rice. These were a very hard working people. When I visited the Sisters of Mercy (during an adoption procedure investigation for my sister), they told me that they had girls living there who worked in clothing factories who saw the sun once a fortnight on their day off. These people worked very hard, and the object was to get the first born son into school, then university who will then look after their families. Their Capital system obviously worked when you see how that country has advanced with what they manufacture for world wide consumption.

The harsh Communist system in North Korea is not geared for anything remotely like this; it is a place where unless the young people joined the army or starve. Their geography/terrain is not suitable for large scale agriculture. They simply don't have the human resources (after the army intake) to produce anywhere near the food to sustain the entire population. So they have to starve.

I hope this helps you understand the two Koreas a little better.

There has been a long history extending over centuries between the northerners and the southerners that predates communism and all that. The south has always had more food, and the north has not.
But if they wanted to toss out the crazies, they could.

[markabilly]

Do not know what all the fuss is about, in the heart of "civilized" Europe, the last person to be shot while trying to cross the West-german and East German border was Chris Gueffroy on February 6, 1989, about 21 years ago, or has everyone forgotten about the people shot in no man's land who were left to bleed to death...

[anthonyvop]

Are you still living in the Cold War?

We all are.....Just you don't know it. F.Y.I. Russia and China still have a ****load of Nukes pointed at us. Russia is still aggressive to other nations(Ask Georgia) and support many dictatorships and repressive regimes. China is doing the same and is still occupying Tibet.

[Eki]

Best way to deal with North Korea? Isolate them, and let the Chinese deal with it, since the Chinese wont let anyone actually do anything constructive with North Korea....
That's what we've been doing and it doesn't seem to work. What good has isolating North Korea brought to anyone? Instead of isolation, we should try to establish an open relationship with North Korea and deal with them. There must be something we could use. If nothing else, then cheap labor, like we used to take an advantage of the cheap labor in South Korea.

[markabilly]

Brainwashed from propaganda, no access to outside media. How are they supposed to know that their country needs fixed? Their world is all that they know, they don't know that they could have it better.

Your comment disgusts me. :down:
your signature and comments disgust me :down:

[markabilly]

Do not know what all the fuss is about, in the heart of "civilized" Europe, the last person to be shot while trying to cross the West-german and East German border was Chris Gueffroy on February 6, 1989, about 21 years ago, or has everyone forgotten about the people shot in no man's land who were left to bleed to death...
forgotten, yep,
I guess so, what we need is another paranoid moron like Reagan the cowboy, to tell them to tear it down.....in the heart of europe, "where we got this thing about not being paranoid morons"

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,605967,00.html




After getting through the first sets of barriers without any problems, the pair were spotted by guards. Gueffroy [20 years old] was hit by 10 bullets and died shortly afterward. His friend was seriously injured and seized by the guards

"Don't hesitate to use your weapon even when border breaches happen with women and children, which traitors have often exploited in the past," reads an order dated Oct. 1, 1973.

The August 13 Working Group, a private initiative, puts the death toll at over 1,200.
Gueffroy was not the last person to die trying to flee East Germany. Winfried Freudenberg fell to his death trying to fly over the Berlin Wall in a hot-air balloon on March 8, 1989. Later in the year, several people died trying to escape from East Germany to Poland. East Germany had closed that border after the Solidarity movement came to power in June 1989.
The corpse of the last known victim of the East German regime, Frank M. from Bad Freienwalde, was retrieved from the Oder River on the German-Polish border at the beginning of November 1989, just days before the Berlin Wall fell.

[BDunnell]

We all are.....Just you don't know it. F.Y.I. Russia and China still have a ****load of Nukes pointed at us. Russia is still aggressive to other nations(Ask Georgia) and support many dictatorships and repressive regimes. China is doing the same and is still occupying Tibet.

Yet both are deemed to be nations with which deep trading links should be encouraged, despite their lack of support for democracy and their repressive actions. Rather hypocritical, don't you feel? It has often been argued over the years that the best way to encourage the spread of democracy in both countries is to trade with them. This has, I would suggest, proved an utter failure. However, it may have had some positive effect. A mutually beneficial economic relationship is probably quite a powerful means of deterring either 'side' from conflict.

It is also, I would say, entirely wrong to worry about Russia's military capabilities. They are still desperately short of money for their armed forces, despite what they might like to put across to the outside world on occasion. New equipment is sorely lacking, as is the ability to properly maintain older equipment. China is a slightly different matter, but even so it is only catching up slowly in terms of military technology, despite the enormous size of its armed services.

[BDunnell]

forgotten, yep,
I guess so, what we need is another paranoid moron like Reagan the cowboy, to tell them to tear it down.....in the heart of europe, "where we got this thing about not being paranoid morons"

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,605967,00.html

You seem to be responding to your own posts now, which is... unusual, shall we say.

I was going to say to you in the gun laws thread before it was closed that, on the subject of the Second World War, you seem to have been labouring under the misapprehension that Pearl Harbor was a documentary. The same appears to be true of your view of the events of 1989. You ignore the fact of those revolutions (despite the fact that we know there to have been a degree of tacit support from elsewhere) having been started by grass-roots movements in the countries in question. But then your knowledge of Europe is clearly somewhat lacking. When did you last visit any European country, or do you consider them all to be such appalling places that you would find the experience too frightening?

[markabilly]

You seem to be responding to your own posts now, which is... unusual, shall we say.

I was going to say to you in the gun laws thread before it was closed that, on the subject of the Second World War, you seem to have been labouring under the misapprehension that Pearl Harbor was a documentary. The same appears to be true of your view of the events of 1989. You ignore the fact of those revolutions (despite the fact that we know there to have been a degree of tacit support from elsewhere) having been started by grass-roots movements in the countries in question. But then your knowledge of Europe is clearly somewhat lacking. When did you last visit any European country, or do you consider them all to be such appalling places that you would find the experience too frightening?

moscow for about a month, about two years ago

Frankfurt and surrounding area about three years ago, for two weeks, a number of visits earlier much longer--like i said, the area around the concentration camp was very civilized and cultured, and impossible to think that such could actually have occurred there

forced by business.

last london trip was about five years ago

funny thing is that of all those places, people in moscow on an individual basis were by far the most friendly......
OTOH, if a russian does not know someone, they have no remorse about running over someone trying to cross the street and other such things. Odd as to how that it is, extreme friendship and loyalty to those they have come to know, and extreme indifference to anyone they do not know.

i also speak a very limited amount of french, but decent german and russian although I do not like the russian alphabet, the way they slur their words together and the lack of articles (no "the" , no "a" and so forth---easy to spot a russian whose english is limited as it carries over in their attempts to speak english). German is a much easier language to speak, with many clear rules and the tendency to Not slur words together

But you are right, I don't know crap about europe, because i will never understand those concentration camps and so forth, with people dieing like sheep, but I do understand the extreme brutality of man towards each other, and what happens when a bully finds someone disarmed and on their knees

[BDunnell]

funny thing is that of all those places, people in moscow on an individual basis were by far the most friendly......
OTOH, if a russian does not know someone, they have no remorse about running over someone trying to cross the street and other such things. Odd as to how that it is, extreme friendship and loyalty to those they have come to know, and extreme indifference to anyone they do not know.

Speaking personally, I have never visited a more unpleasant, blatantly corrupt and generally — probably out of circumstances — downright miserable country as Russia. But, clearly, this does not form anywhere near a true picture. I feel deeply sorry for its people, in fact, having lived for decades under a totalitarian system and then come out of it only to emerge into a new order that can hardly be considered any better. But this is probably off topic.

[markabilly]

Speaking personally, I have never visited a more unpleasant, blatantly corrupt and generally — probably out of circumstances — downright miserable country as Russia. But, clearly, this does not form anywhere near a true picture. I feel deeply sorry for its people, in fact, having lived for decades under a totalitarian system and then come out of it only to emerge into a new order that can hardly be considered any better. But this is probably off topic.

depends on when you go. In the middle of the summer for about six weeks, the sunlight is great for photography, the people are very happy, Moscow and the countryside are very beautiful. Very high latitude that affects lighting, but Sun sets at midnight, and rises before 4am. All the various colors of the buildings which are all painted very bright colors of all sorts, stand out. Red Square is a special treat to visit. Any other time of the year, all thos colors start getting muted, until the middle of winter where the sun comes out about 9:30 am and then has set by 3 pm, everything-all those colors are very gray--- too cold to do much except stay inside and drink Vodka--and everyone is very miserable. From one extreme to the other.

No wonder about abuse of alcohol that is everywhere...

At first i thought russia might go back to commie land, as my first visit was just as Putin was coming into power. But then I saw russian TV, which is exactly like american TV, commercials, talk shows, the good, bad and the ugly. So I do not think it will go back there. Might have a dictatorship, but not back to the commie way of the economy.

Rusia is not really corrupt, they just have a very different idea of doing business, much like the movie Godfather.....there they do not consider bribes as we consider bribes, they look at it as though normal exchanges of commerce. Beeen that way right through out the centuries probably, even at the height of communism. You need something that will profit you personally, then you give something to the other side's people (be it government or whoever) as part of the "exchange". Call it a gift. If you call it a bribe, that is an insult.

Loyalty, once a proper bond is formed, is very extreme. The russian mafia does not attack each other internally inside its "family" as in the Godfather. I have friends that i know would kill for me,(well depending on who the intended victim is, as long as it is not another of their friends for whom they have loyalty also) and got my back.

Bush blew it with putin, early on. Putin went to texas to drink vodka, and thought they had a deal. Bush could do what he wanted with his side of the world, and putin with his side. Big friends, but then Putin felt like bush stabbed him in the back by messing with former eastern block countries. A Russian who has become your loyal buddy, hates you when he thinks you have stabbed him in the back---

But no general social conscience. In another words, if you are not a relative, friend or close acquaintance, do not expect a russian to help you, if you are hurt.

I remeber one situation, where i protested about something bad going down (long story) but the reaction of a friend was to say, is he your relative or friend?? No, well then do not worry about it....happenned several times.

Do not look others in the face or eye, unless you know them--it marks you as a foreigner


But that has always worried me about Russia, is how cold and indifferent they are to people they do not know and regard as a relative or friend. I can see Russians just liquidating others just cause it was a job as with Stalin, where he sent a group of three to villages and towns where they were not from, to do his killing...and murdered well over 20 million or so..... .

In comparison, I found the typical german to be rude, even with freinds and relatives. But not so indifferent to others they do not know, indeed, far more friendlier, and above board always.

French were rude, very corrupt in the classic sense and very arrogant--although I think they have nothing to be so arrogant over......

England seemed to have many snobs who were more limp and whiney than arrogant. Not rude, just smugly superior attitude, except among the working class, who have not the education of the "professionals" and some of whom were okay. But unlike with Germany and Russia, I did not get the feeling that in time of crisis, that I could ever have felt like they got my back, but atleast there was not this cold indifference towards people they did not know as in russia , when those people needed help. Indeed just the opposite.

So if the North Koreans, a place I have never been, are worse than the russians about others that they do not know, well, must be really bad.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

depends on when you go. In the middle of the summer for about six weeks, the sunlight is great for photography, the people are very happy, Moscow and the countryside are very beautiful. Very high latitude that affects lighting, but Sun sets at midnight, and rises before 4am. All the various colors of the buildings which are all painted very bright colors of all sorts, stand out. Red Square is a special treat to visit. Any other time of the year, all thos colors start getting muted, until the middle of winter where the sun comes out about 9:30 am and then has set by 3 pm, everything-all those colors are very gray--- too cold to do much except stay inside and drink Vodka--and everyone is very miserable. From one extreme to the other.

No wonder about abuse of alcohol that is everywhere...
.

So why doesn't such a high latitude have the same effect on Edinburgh? :p

[BDunnell]

In comparison, I found the typical german to be rude, even with freinds and relatives. But not so indifferent to others they do not know, indeed, far more friendlier, and above board always.

French were rude, very corrupt in the classic sense and very arrogant--although I think they have nothing to be so arrogant over......

England seemed to have many snobs who were more limp and whiney than arrogant. Not rude, just smugly superior attitude, except among the working class, who have not the education of the "professionals" and some of whom were okay. But unlike with Germany and Russia, I did not get the feeling that in time of crisis, that I could ever have felt like they got my back, but atleast there was not this cold indifference towards people they did not know as in russia , when those people needed help. Indeed just the opposite.

I don't think much of your assessments of people, I must say. Time to give up that psychology course.

[markabilly]

So 80% of English people are okay then?
..... ;)



I previously thought they were all great people, then I started reading posts of some of you posters around here and discovered how very mistaken I was.... :s mokin:


Like bdunno says, time to give up that class....what do those idiots at harvard medical school know anyway

[markabilly]

So why doesn't such a high latitude have the same effect on Edinburgh? :p

dont know, never been there, but moscow does get cold and very damp.....and no self respecting russian opens a bottle and only drinks half of it.....all or nothing

[markabilly]

err as i was saying...


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/25/world/europe/25scene.html?_r=1


After the Bombing, It’s Business as Usual

.....passengers coming off flights from abroad were being ushered through the very same terminal where bodies had only just been removed.


Sheets of blue plastic had simply been hung to block out the scene.

Elena V. Zatserkovnaya, who works at the Lufthansa counter, said she heard the bomb and ran into the area to help. But soon enough, she had to return to her desk a few hundred yards away, to check in people for their flights.
“I’m surprised the airport is still open,” she said, watching international passengers still trailing out of the damaged terminal, perhaps not fully aware what they had just passed behind the blue plastic sheeting. “Maybe they didn’t want to create panic.”

[Dave B]

I previously thought they were all great people, then I started reading posts of some of you posters around here and discovered how very mistaken I was.... :s mokin:

I'm glad I don't work that way. Personally I find it best not to judge a country of 300 million people by, for example, the demented rantings of a few right-wing nutjobs on a random forum. :p

[Dave B]

err as i was saying...

After the Bombing, It’s Business as Usual



Dara O'Briain told of how he first encountered British resolve when he visited from Ireland during the second (and false) London tube bombings. He described a typical reaction to being told "There's a bomb on the Circle line!" as "Oh. Ok then, I'll get the Victoria line and change at Green Park..."

[markabilly]

then I'd be inclined to slap every stereotype on them in the book and join the National Socialist Party.

did you just accidentally slip out of the closet?? Was that you parading around with that tatto of a nazi swatskita on the back of your skinhead?

Funny, I have never ever seen the klan parading around here (USA) in person, but I have seen a few on the TV.....then I go to London, and there you guys be.....i get to see it live and in person :rolleyes:

[Dave B]

did you just accidentally slip out of the closet?? Was that you parading around with that tatto of a nazi swatskita on the back of your skinhead?

Funny, I have never ever seen the klan parading around here (USA) in person, but I have seen a few on the TV.....then I go to London, and there you guys be.....

I think you've crossed a line there, old chap.

[markabilly]

I think you've crossed a line there, old chap.

hurts don't it, when you get your stuff tossed back in your face.

Like i said, merry ole england, there for my first visit to London, and what do I see....sieg heil and all.

Better start crying and close down this thread and run off as usual.......

[markabilly]

Just saying what i saw when I went there and this is the stuff I get