WRC/IRC - to merge or not to merge?

[FabiaFan]

There is a living discussion - off topic - in the Petter Solberg thread, so I try to redirect it here.

[FabiaFan]

Going back off topic, I'm not sure that Rallying can really properly support 2 'International' series, it's just not big enough.
If the people who run the WRC had done their job, the IRC wouldn't have been needed, but as we know, they took their collective eyes off the ball. Into the breach came the IRC. What we got was different types of events, night stages, more competition - then the Monte!! And still the WRC sat back.......
I want ONE International Rally series - with lots of Manufacturers, drivers who can win, different event formats, good media exposure, etc
Yes, I'm living in a dream world.
But there could be also another point of view - IRC serves as a better 2nd league, formula 2,... than the European Championship ever did... enabling drivers (and maybe also teams, manufacturers - lets follow Skoda for example...) to "qualify" for the World Championship... so why not better "merge" IRC with ERC, as IRC anyway repeatedly fails in making IRC "intercontinental"...???

[Livewireshock]

It is like arguing if World Superbike Championship should merge with MotoGP.

There are simply too many countries that want a WRC round and not enough seats in top class WRC teams. The IRC provides a great chance for various events to host an international event with top class drivers in good cars at the next rung down from the WRC. Effectively both have their place.

[RS]

so why not better "merge" IRC with ERC, as IRC anyway repeatedly fails in making IRC "intercontinental"...???

I had a similar opinion. The FIA could sell or give the rights for ERC to Eurosport Events and then the IRC would have proper FIA billing and ERC would/could gain decent TV and entries. ERC as it stands is pretty useless and most of the good IRC events are in Europe anyway. I would also cut the IRC calendar to around 8 events to get a more consistent entry and to prevent the end of season events becoming "dead rubber"

IRC 2011 looks like it should be once again very competitive but I have my doubts that will continue when they take on the more expensive SP cars and when more manufacturer teams provide a marketplace for good drivers in the World Championship.

[koko0703]

Future of two series largely depends on how manufacturers will pursue their interest in rallying. If Peugeot shifts more resources to Le Mans and if Skoda/VW decides to join WRC, I think it will be difficult for IRC to survive. On the other hand, if manufacturers prefer to stay in IRC, IRC will be there for a good period of time and not as a second league to WRC.

[RICARDO75]

But there could be also another point of view - IRC serves as a better 2nd league, formula 2,... than the European Championship ever did... enabling drivers (and maybe also teams, manufacturers - lets follow Skoda for example...) to "qualify" for the World Championship... so why not better "merge" IRC with ERC, as IRC anyway repeatedly fails in making IRC "intercontinental"...???

I fully agree with you. Besides, I already said this here some time ago.

[I am evil Homer]

Why can't IRC be GP2 to WRC's F1? It's clear costs are high in WRC despite attempts to change it...but where are the next generation of drivers going to get a chance to drive similar events in decent machinery? Unless costs go down a lot the chance of satellitte team in WRC seems remote.

Group N didn't seem to work in that regard so why not have IRC acting as a feeder series, so you can still have Fabias, DS3s, Fiesta, 207 etc with less aero/power and have their more powerful cousins in IRC?

I admit that could be difficult to market but if the base car was a fixed price and it reuqired different kits to be either 'IRC' spec or 'WRC' spec it would be far better than this horrific mish-mash of rules and classes we have now.

[Mirek]

I had a similar opinion. The FIA could sell or give the rights for ERC to Eurosport Events and then the IRC would have proper FIA billing and ERC would/could gain decent TV and entries. ERC as it stands is pretty useless and most of the good IRC events are in Europe anyway. I would also cut the IRC calendar to around 8 events to get a more consistent entry and to prevent the end of season events becoming "dead rubber"

IRC 2011 looks like it should be once again very competitive but I have my doubts that will continue when they take on the more expensive SP cars and when more manufacturer teams provide a marketplace for good drivers in the World Championship.

+1

[MJW]

Speaking personally I look forward to Monte and Eurosport's coverage and you have to say there is a very good entry this year. After that I may look in at the tv for Ypres but my my next definite interest in IRC will be San Remo. I follow it like I follow LeMans and Tour De France cycle race. Monte and then bye bye, I always liked a proper san Remo so I look at that from a nostalgic WRC perspective.
My guess is IRC would be a LOT weaker without Monte.

[BDunnell]

Surely the most relevant comparison is with something like A1GP. Good idea, good events, good drivers, but ultimately just not important enough to continue? Don't get me wrong — the front-running teams and drivers in the IRC are clearly of a high standard, and the championship can boast some world-class events, but this isn't enough.

[BDunnell]

Maybe after the Monte is a good time to return to this discussion? I have watched quite a bit of coverage of the event, far more than I have any of previous IRC round, and while it was clearly a fascinating rally — had it been a WRC event with that level of competition and place-swapping, we would surely all be calling it a classic — one thing troubles me. There is, to my eye, almost zero variety in terms of the cars. Watching a load of almost identically-sized small hatchbacks, no matter how well-driven, somehow doesn't do it for me.

[Livewireshock]

Maybe after the Monte is a good time to return to this discussion? I have watched quite a bit of coverage of the event, far more than I have any of previous IRC round, and while it was clearly a fascinating rally — had it been a WRC event with that level of competition and place-swapping, we would surely all be calling it a classic — one thing troubles me. There is, to my eye, almost zero variety in terms of the cars. Watching a load of almost identically-sized small hatchbacks, no matter how well-driven, somehow doesn't do it for me.

If the 2011 Monte was a WRC event, you would not have had the variety of tyres and tyre makers involved to cause the intrigue and deception tactics in the service park in the same way. You would also not have the rally follow its mid-week time table and racing multiple night stages until well after midnight. So it would not have been the same, so it was a classic IRC with enough difference, to keep it from merging.

[MJW]

Two things that I found noteworthy about Monte, 1 was a rally radio interview with Lasse Lampi about Juho Haninen where he said things along these lines, (sorry it is not 100% accurate was friday night and I am now posting this on monday)
WRC is not in a good place at the moment with paid manufacturer drives, and he has spoken with Mahonen to give Lasse's opinion on what is wrong with WRC, also he hopes the situation will change in WRC in the not too distant future. Lasse understands the position of companies who need to sell cars, and he did name drivers who he thought did not have the talent to be in WRC but are there because of their wallet. He was quite direct in the fact that he felt there was a wider pool of talent in IRC than in WRC, and that in no way should IRC be considered inferior drivers. Lasse also said that to preserve the "elite" nature of a FIA World Championship there should be some form of pre-qualification super licence type thing to allow an entry to the championship, I think he meant championship, not just a local driver entering his home round.
2np point, was what a friend who last visted Monte when it was a WRC round, before visiting this years IRC round. He said the whole atmosphere was better in IRC, no 2 metre high anticlimb fences round the service park, genuine fans could get close to teh Peugeot celebration, not kept several metres away behind two lots of crowd barriers, and coveted "passes" In summary he said WRC is so far up its own money motivated asses, that for the fans IRC was better. Oh and he said the WRC retirement home resident drivers were still quick and the S2000 cars great. Enough said?

[AndyRAC]

Yeah, I also heard that interview – very interesting, and lots of sense spoken. He also admitted it was his fault that Juho went on inters.
The interviewer, Greg Strange originally asked him about Juho being in the WRC – and his reply was, “where, there a no FACTORY seats available”

[Mark]

WRC needs to roll back the changes which they've made in order to make rallies more popular, which have just done the opposite!

The thing which made the WRC great was the variety of rallies, night stages, mid-week stages, 4-5 day events etc. Personally I'd much rather have a WRC calendar consisting of just 8 events which are massive and generate a load of publicity.

Not least bringing RallyGB back to the days of the RAC Rally when it was a proper rally, all around the country, all times of day. Not the pre-packed, branded and shrink wrapped version we have now.

[MJW]

2np point, was what a friend who last visted Monte when it was a WRC round, before visiting this years IRC round. He said the whole atmosphere was better in IRC, no 2 metre high anticlimb fences round the service park, genuine fans could get close to teh Peugeot celebration, not kept several metres away behind two lots of crowd barriers, and coveted "passes" In summary he said WRC is so far up its own money motivated asses, that for the fans IRC was better. Oh and he said the WRC retirement home resident drivers were still quick and the S2000 cars great. Enough said?
That friend had a proper press pass, and also gets them for WRC, so it wasnt a disgruntled wannabe who doesnt get WRC access.

[AndyRAC]

WRC needs to roll back the changes which they've made in order to make rallies more popular, which have just done the opposite!

The thing which made the WRC great was the variety of rallies, night stages, mid-week stages, 4-5 day events etc. Personally I'd much rather have a WRC calendar consisting of just 8 events which are massive and generate a load of publicity.

Not least bringing RallyGB back to the days of the RAC Rally when it was a proper rally, all around the country, all times of day. Not the pre-packed, branded and shrink wrapped version we have now.

While I agree, I can't see it happening. The current organisers seems happy with the event in Wales - it is their cash cow. It probably makes more money now than it did when it went all over the country - even though now nobody knows about it.
It's interesting you mention mid -week stages, I was actually thinking about that while watching the Monte. While it will never be considered - it does make sense for some events. And avoids the ridiculous clashes with F1.

[Mark]

It probably makes more money now than it did when it went all over the country - even though now nobody knows about it.


That's the thing, the Rally GB these days generates little to no press interest at all. But it wasn't that long ago (mid 90's) that it would be on the national news, and local news when the stages went through the North East, there would be day by day coverage on the BBC and even stages shown live. But now, all that's gone.

[AndyRAC]

That's the thing, the Rally GB these days generates little to no press interest at all. But it wasn't that long ago (mid 90's) that it would be on the national news, and local news when the stages went through the North East, there would be day by day coverage on the BBC and even stages shown live. But now, all that's gone.

Yes, it's called progress!! The WRC has never been healthier.........

...er, wait a minute.... :dozey:

[BDunnell]

If the 2011 Monte was a WRC event, you would not have had the variety of tyres and tyre makers involved to cause the intrigue and deception tactics in the service park in the same way. You would also not have the rally follow its mid-week time table and racing multiple night stages until well after midnight. So it would not have been the same, so it was a classic IRC with enough difference, to keep it from merging.

But being an IRC event means it has even less profile amongst the wider public than it would as a WRC event. How many non-enthusiasts have heard of the IRC? Not nearly enough. And, as I said, the cars are just too dull.

[Mirek]

I don't think that reputation of Monte Carlo is dependent on championship it participates in. It's something special like Dakar, I can imagine Monte even aside any championship.

[AndyRAC]

I don't think that reputation of Monte Carlo is dependent on championship it participates in. It's something special like Dakar, I can imagine Monte even aside any championship.

It's a bit like Le Mans in that regard.....

[FabiaFan]

Watching a load of almost identically-sized small hatchbacks, no matter how well-driven, somehow doesn't do it for me. :-DDD Just watch the following WRC round - what you'll see: just two different types of "almost identically-sized small hatchbacks"... So where's the point?

[BDunnell]

:-DDD Just watch the following WRC round - what you'll see: just two different types of "almost identically-sized small hatchbacks"... So where's the point?

I'm not denying that this is the case either. But at least the WRC cars won't just be understeer-y small hatchbacks.

[AndyRAC]

Both series could do with plenty of over-steery 911 GT3's competing - real crowd pleasers!!

[alleskids]

But being an IRC event means it has even less profile amongst the wider public than it would as a WRC event. How many non-enthusiasts have heard of the IRC? Not nearly enough. And, as I said, the cars are just too dull.

Maybe IRC rallies are not well known by the less enthousiastic rally fans, but still they have their own identity. IRC is great by letting rallies run their own scedule, instead of the standard friday-saterday, and hen a half program on sunday. I can hardly see the difference between rallies in Mexico, Argentina, Portugal, Sardinie, Greece. WRC rallies are becoming 1 taste sausages. I hardly bare to follow it, sometimes only seeing the results pages in the evening. IRC offers great possibilities for drivers who cannot make it to the WRC because theuy lack the multi million budget.
Group N has failed in being the step stone to WRC. How many drivers who had succes in Group N, made it to the WRCars? Only Tommi Makinen (1990 3 wins) comes on top of my memory. And Grabriele Pozzo (champion in 2001) had a half change with Skoda in 2002.
Formula 2 (1993-1999) brought Seat, Peugeot, Skoda, Citroen Alister McRae, Rovanpera, Panizzi
JWRC (2001-2010) brought Loeb, Duval, Sordo, Ogier, Anderson, Meeke
F2 and JWRC were so much more fruitfuller championships for new teams and young drivers. IRC brings the same posisbilities as these had. WRC needs IRC and vice versa

[Mirek]

I'm not denying that this is the case either. But at least the WRC cars won't just be understeer-y small hatchbacks.

I have to tell You that both S2000 and new WRC have same transmission and suspension so their handling is generally same.

[BDunnell]

Maybe IRC rallies are not well known by the less enthousiastic rally fans, but still they have their own identity.

Very true, and I very much like this about the IRC, but this doesn't mean much without the championship as a whole having some wider status. Again, I'd make the comparison with A1GP, because I think this is entirely relevant. A1GP was an excellent idea, the cars were good, there were some good drivers, it used good circuits — and it failed.



Group N has failed in being the step stone to WRC.

I very much agree. As I've said several times before, it holds almost zero interest for the spectator — even the enthusiastic spectator. The only time I've ever had the slightest interest in a Group N battle was when British Touring Car driver James Thompson did the RAC (as I insist on calling it) in 2002, and nearly won the category, for that would have been a tremendous achievement on his first WRC event. Other than that, Group N bores me rigid, I'm sorry to say.



Formula 2 (1993-1999) brought Seat, Peugeot, Skoda, Citroen Alister McRae, Rovanpera, Panizzi
JWRC (2001-2010) brought Loeb, Duval, Sordo, Ogier, Anderson, Meeke
F2 and JWRC were so much more fruitfuller championships for new teams and young drivers. IRC brings the same posisbilities as these had. WRC needs IRC and vice versa

I'm not sure about that. What I think is needed is one world championship with a meaningful secondary formula, something like F2 was, and a genuine variety — formats, locations, stages — of events. Maybe Jean Todt thinks this way as well? We shall see.

[BDunnell]

Both series could do with plenty of over-steery 911 GT3's competing - real crowd pleasers!!

Not a bad idea, but in my opinion only if they were in some way competitive. It would be strange indeed for supercars to be just bit-players against small family hatchbacks.

I probably sound like a cracked record, but I feel quite strongly that world rallying was at its best when large numbers of different types of car were able to compete on a fairly level playing-field, if not on every type of event. The sort of variety to be found in 1981, with Escorts, 131 Abarths, Sunbeam Lotuses, 911s, Asconas, R5 Turbos, Quattros, even the occasional Ferrari and more all competing at the top level was very appealing. What a shame the Group B supercars came along and spoiled it. The early post-1986 period of Group A being the primary category saw a brief return to such variety, something which, for me at least, was much to be welcomed.

[AndyRAC]

Not a bad idea, but in my opinion only if they were in some way competitive. It would be strange indeed for supercars to be just bit-players against small family hatchbacks.

I probably sound like a cracked record, but I feel quite strongly that world rallying was at its best when large numbers of different types of car were able to compete on a fairly level playing-field, if not on every type of event. The sort of variety to be found in 1981, with Escorts, 131 Abarths, Sunbeam Lotuses, 911s, Asconas, R5 Turbos, Quattros, even the occasional Ferrari and more all competing at the top level was very appealing. What a shame the Group B supercars came along and spoiled it. The early post-1986 period of Group A being the primary category saw a brief return to such variety, something which, for me at least, was much to be welcomed.

I'm afraid I'm in full agreement with you....... ;)
Variety, different solutions to a question? RWD, 4WD, FWD, front engine, rear engine, mid engine, hot hatch, family hatch, coupe, sportscar, etc
I'd love to see some kind of equivalency formula - together with a mixed calendar of gravel, tarmac, mixed, and a snow event - meaning on a certain type of event a particular car would be the favourite, but on another event, it would be another type of car - however, at the end of the season it would even itself out, and would be extremely interesting!!
But, it's not going to happen - too many vested interests will see to that.

[BDunnell]

I'm afraid I'm in full agreement with you....... ;)
Variety, different solutions to a question? RWD, 4WD, FWD, front engine, rear engine, mid engine, hot hatch, family hatch, coupe, sportscar, etc
I'd love to see some kind of equivalency formula - together with a mixed calendar of gravel, tarmac, mixed, and a snow event - meaning on a certain type of event a particular car would be the favourite, but on another event, it would be another type of car - however, at the end of the season it would even itself out, and would be extremely interesting!!
But, it's not going to happen - too many vested interests will see to that.

Look at the moaning, especially from Subaru, when the 306 Maxis 'stole points from them' on tarmac. I thought it was great to see two-wheel-drive cars being competitive again.

Of course, just what you describe was habitually the case in the British Open series from 1982-85. Generally, Quattros would win on gravel, Asconas/Mantas on tarmac. It was always a close-run thing at the end of the season.

[AndyRAC]

Look at the moaning, especially from Subaru, when the 306 Maxis 'stole points from them' on tarmac. I thought it was great to see two-wheel-drive cars being competitive again.

Of course, just what you describe was habitually the case in the British Open series from 1982-85. Generally, Quattros would win on gravel, Asconas/Mantas on tarmac. It was always a close-run thing at the end of the season.

Yes, I do remember, eventually the kit cars had their minimum weight increased to decrease their competitiveness - an extremely short sighted decision!! I just wish the FiA had the balls to stand up to these Manufacturers once in a while. It seems Ford/ Citroen have virtually run the show the last few years deciding what regs/rules can come in - whether that benefits the sport as a whole, doesn't matter.

[BDunnell]

Yes, I do remember, eventually the kit cars had their minimum weight increased to decrease their competitiveness - an extremely short sighted decision!! I just wish the FiA had the balls to stand up to these Manufacturers once in a while. It seems Ford/ Citroen have virtually run the show the last few years deciding what regs/rules can come in - whether that benefits the sport as a whole, doesn't matter.

The good thing is that I can't see Jean Todt standing for this if it continues for much longer (as I fear it will even when the Mini effort is up and running). It does seem strange to be thinking of the boss of the FIA as a potential saviour, but such might end up being the case.

[AndyRAC]

The good thing is that I can't see Jean Todt standing for this if it continues for much longer (as I fear it will even when the Mini effort is up and running). It does seem strange to be thinking of the boss of the FIA as a potential saviour, but such might end up being the case.

Whatever people might think of him and his previous role at Ferrari - he's actually spoken a lot of sense regarding the future of the sport - event formats, endurance, etc So I'm fairly hopeful he might get things done. Whether that includes a merger between WRC-IRC, I'm not sure.