Everything goes up today! (plus: Car discussion!)

[Mark]

In the UK the basic rate of VAT will today increase from 17.5% to 20%.

Meaning pretty much everything will cost more! You can also bet that it won't be just 2.5% more either, an item costing £4.99 won't go up to £5.10, as it should, but probably more like £5.49 instead.

And before you say "aha!, well food and other things are zero rated" well, yes they are, but remember that fuel is going up because of the VAT and duty rise too, and they need to be delivered to the shops, so food and children's clothes will be going up too..

[Sonic]

What is. Is.

Just filled up. £1.27 per litre. Ho hum.

[Retro Formula 1]

But, we have to get control on spending and our debt down. Like it or not, we are in one of the worst situations of any developed country because of massive overspending and waste. The gravy train ran out and now we need to tighten our belts.

That had Alan Johnson on Sky this morning bleating on about how his was the party that would fight the good fight etc when Eamon came out and asked him if Labour came into power next week, would they scrap the 20% VAT?

It was quite pitiful to watch him squirming and refusing to answer until he latched on the only branch he could find saying that "it's unlikely Labour will be in next week".

Really chaps, we can moan and groan, bitch and whine, but the sad fact is that we have to get rid of some of this debt or we're screwed.

[Mark]

tbh I think the 20% VAT rate is reasonable. My main objection is the disproportionate amount of tax which is levied upon motoring. Now the usual response is that "well if it wasn't the tax will have to rise elsewhere". But where does it end, shall we now decree that motorists should pay for the entirety of government spending?

[gadjo_dilo]

Stop complaining! Last summer we increased VAT from 19% to 24% and we have no products zero rated. At the same date salaries paid from the state budget decreased with 25%.

We still survive.....

[schmenke]

Phew, that's a relief... reading the thread title, I was about to tie myself to a tree...

[Sonic]

Phew, that's a relief... reading the thread title, I was about to tie myself to a tree...

LOL! :D

[Hazell B]

My main objection is the disproportionate amount of tax which is levied upon motoring. Now the usual response is that "well if it wasn't the tax will have to rise elsewhere". But where does it end, shall we now decree that motorists should pay for the entirety of government spending?


I'm more than happy at the VAT rate, but as for motoring I think it's the only fair place we can add taxes. If we don't like it, we can stop driving cars!
And before everyone tells me they can't stop driving, think about it. Of course we can. All of us. Wouldn't be easy, but we can all stop using cars if we genuinely want to.

If you need to drive to work, move house or change jobs. If you need to drive children about, give them bus fare or make them walk. You get the picture. I'm sick of hearing people I know say they HAVE to drive when all they really do is go shopping and to things like football matches. They'd spend a whole lot less if they used a taxi for those trips.

What the hell is this £500 a year the new rate is going to add to the 'average' annual spend the news is quoting? It would mean about a tenner a week on VATable products, making an 'average' family's spending over £400 each week on products that are VAT rated. Rubbish - even hunting, shooting and fishing families I know don't spend that much! Allowing for a new car every year, maybe the £500 is realistic, but I'm not seeing an average family doing that unless they're idiots.

By the way, last night I went shopping and some dolts ahead of me to pay said they were buying stuff before the VAT went up. They bought nothing VAT rated that I saw in the trolley. Typical lack of understanding by Brits these days. The difference in handling costs on non-VATable goods will take weeks to appear.

[ArrowsFA1]

It's always interesting to see how things such as the VAT increase can be interpreted. For example like this:




Treasury data shows that the UK households that spend the most also tend to have their incomes harder hit by the VAT rise than the lowest-spending households.[/*:m:l0l381s0]
This would appear to support the Chancellor's claim [that the rate rise is a "progressive" policy][/*:m:l0l381s0]
However, when economists consider how "progressive" or "regressive" a tax is, they typically look at the distribution of the tax burden based on household income, not household spending.[/*:m:l0l381s0]
And the data here tells exactly the opposite story: those at the bottom of the income scale - particularly the bottom 10% - would be hurt much more by the VAT rise than those at the top.[/*:m:l0l381s0]
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12110945

So which is it :crazy:

[Sonic]

Lies. Damn lies and statistics

[Dave B]

We have absolutely no plans to raise VAT. Our first budget is all about recognising we need to get spending under control rather than putting up tax
General Election 2010: Cameron dismisses claim Tories would put up VAT (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/election-2010/7625873/General-Election-2010-Cameron-dismisses-claim-Tories-would-put-up-VAT.html)


[quote="David Cameron"]You could try as you say put it on VAT, sales tax, but again if you look at the effect of sales tax, it&#8217]
David Cameron, Cameron Direct, Exeter, 8 May 2009 (http://www.edballs4labour.org/blog/?p=153)

[Tshbez]

I'm more than happy at the VAT rate, but as for motoring I think it's the only fair place we can add taxes. If we don't like it, we can stop driving cars!
And before everyone tells me they can't stop driving, think about it. Of course we can. All of us. Wouldn't be easy, but we can all stop using cars if we genuinely want to.

If you need to drive to work, move house or change jobs. If you need to drive children about, give them bus fare or make them walk. You get the picture. I'm sick of hearing people I know say they HAVE to drive when all they really do is go shopping and to things like football matches. They'd spend a whole lot less if they used a taxi for those trips.



I think the problem with not driving is the lack of an alternative way of getting about in the UK. Public transport is ridiculous in some areas because it's left to private companies who want to make a profit like everyone else. I don't think I've ever known bus fares getting cheaper, nor train fares. Most bus companies seem to try and put the smallest and oldest possible buses on each service.

You'll never stop people driving their cars unless you provide them with a decent alternative; a total replacement for their cars. Such things as new trainlines seem to get buried under bureaucracy for years. The public transport network required to stop people using cars is decades away. Not until the car as a concept is totally dead will a proper alternative be invested in. Cars are too convenient for people now. It's all about quality of life. Yes, people could stop driving cars if they wanted to, but their quality of life would suffer. People won't give that up.

Not to mention the whole workings of the world being reliant on fossil fuels.

[MrMetro]

I think the problem with not driving is the lack of an alternative way of getting about in the UK. Public transport is ridiculous in some areas because it's left to private companies who want to make a profit like everyone else. I don't think I've ever known bus fares getting cheaper, nor train fares. Most bus companies seem to try and put the smallest and oldest possible buses on each service.

You'll never stop people driving their cars unless you provide them with a decent alternative; a total replacement for their cars. Such things as new trainlines seem to get buried under bureaucracy for years. The public transport network required to stop people using cars is decades away. Not until the car as a concept is totally dead will a proper alternative be invested in. Cars are too convenient for people now. It's all about quality of life. Yes, people could stop driving cars if they wanted to, but their quality of life would suffer. People won't give that up.

Not to mention the whole workings of the world being reliant on fossil fuels.


I fully agree here. Where I live, Northern rail are not too bad, but across the country, there are some truly dreadful train companies.

http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/group.php?gid=2239285772

http://www.ihatefirstgreatwestern.blogspot.com/

http://www.firstcrapitalconnect.co.uk/what-can-we-do-about-first-capital-connect.html

http://ihatenationalexpresseastanglia.blogspot.com/

[Bob Riebe]

In the UK the basic rate of VAT will today increase from 17.5% to 20%.

Meaning pretty much everything will cost more! You can also bet that it won't be just 2.5% more either, an item costing £4.99 won't go up to £5.10, as it should, but probably more like £5.49 instead.

And before you say "aha!, well food and other things are zero rated" well, yes they are, but remember that fuel is going up because of the VAT and duty rise too, and they need to be delivered to the shops, so food and children's clothes will be going up too..

If the Democrats, could get that passed here, they would act like starved hogs at the feeding trough.

[ArrowsFA1]

The truth of politics is unchanging. It is easier to raise £13bn with what amounts to a stealth tax on poorer spenders in the high street than by upsetting powerful interests with access to ministers and the media. Only this can explain the kid-glove treatment of the banks, whose leaders have profited spectacularly from an economic catastrophe for which they and their brow-beaten regulators were largely to blame.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jan/04/vat-george-osborne-unbending-truth

[Rollo]

It's always interesting to see how things such as the VAT increase can be interpreted. For example like this:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12110945

So which is it :crazy:

Poorer people tend to spend a higher proportion of their income than richer people do. Consumption taxes are largely regressive, ie. the relative burden decreases as incomes tend to go up.
People's marginal propensity to save the next dollarpound in general tends to increase with incomes (though this is only a general trend).

[GridGirl]

The rise in VAT will most probably have less of an effect on me in the next 12 months compared to the effect general inflation has had in the last 12 months. Speaking as someone who has not has a pay rise sinse 1st July 2008 I know I have less purchasing power now compared to that I had just one or more years ago. I have no high expectations of receiving any pay rise this July either but my economic situation could be a whole lot worse so overall I don't have too much to complain about.

Indeed, the increase in the price of fuel is the price increase that I've noticed most. When I bought my car in 2006 it only cost £28 to brim the tank yet it cost just over £50 to brim the tank today at £1.24p. That is around a 78% increase (including changes to the rate of VAT) in just over 4 years. Of course I would be happier if the cost was lower but it still hasn't got to the point where I have thought about swapping to a more economical car. On a personal level I'm not quite sure how high fuel prices and insurance would need to go before I would actually think about ditching my car completely.

[AAReagles]

If the Democrats, could get that passed here, they would act like starved hogs at the feeding trough.

Indeed. Don't be surprised however that the Republicans do some 'compromising' themselves, and vote for the VAT. It's only a matter of time.

Machination works in both parties.

[Mark]

It's ok saying "Well if you don't like the price of fuel, use public transport", but if we assume that you need to tax and insure your car anyway, even for occasional use, the marginal cost of using buses and trains is still higher than the cost of fuel for the car. In fact it's not the cost of petrol vs the cost of public transport that is the issue at stake, it's that *all* methods of getting around in the UK (except walking and cycling of course) are exceptionally expensive. We've only recently seen train fares go up well above inflation and bus fares are already daylight robbery.

Mobility is one of the biggest contributors to a sucessful economy but sucessive governments of all colours seem determined to prevent it as much as possible.

[AAReagles]

... In fact it's not the cost of petrol vs the cost of public transport that is the issue at stake, it's that *all* methods of getting around in the UK (except walking and cycling of course) are exceptionally expensive... Mobility is one of the biggest contributors to a sucessful economy but sucessive governments of all colours seem determined to prevent it as much as possible.

With ever increasing populations, immigration, and with numbers of seniors living longer(in developed countries at least), I think govt's., will be forced to create inconvienent measures for the purpose of discouraging those who desire to travel by personal vehicle.

Some sort of slow process of conditioning society to accept it doesn't appear unrealistic to me.

Guess it's a small world after all.

[Sonic]

On a personal level I'm not quite sure how high fuel prices and insurance would need to go before I would actually think about ditching my car completely.

I think most will find a way to justify their cars (I know I would ;) ). I remember my old man making a flippant comment about how expensive fuel had got to a cashier twenty odd years ago when the price was something like 50p per litre.

The cashier told him he wasn't worried - even triple the price, he said, and people would still pay.

[Daniel]

On a personal level I'm not quite sure how high fuel prices and insurance would need to go before I would actually think about ditching my car completely.

For something cheaper to run? Or getting rid of it altogether?

[GridGirl]

For something cheaper to run? Or getting rid of it altogether?

Right now I do want a new car but that's just because I'd just quite like one. Sadly, that doesn't automatically translate into me getting one though. As for getting something cheaper I think fuel could probably go up another 20p before I would think about specifically getting something more economical. The burden of some of my fuel costs are somewhat reduced by the amount of mileage I claim back from work as expenses. That said, if I were to get a new car I would almost definately be getting something cheaper to run. I only drive. 2.0l car now because that was the only engine available. My previous Pug 206 only had a 1.1ltr engine. I would miss the oomph of a more powerful car but I could get used to driving a more economical car again I would of thought.

I've thought about it and I don't think I could actually get rid of my car altogether. I dont think we could revert to being a one car household at all.

[driveace]

Yes fuel is now getting very expensive,but also is all the costs involved with motoring.It costs me £86 to diesel up,£415 road tax,annual test £50 odd pounds,and sevicing costs are rising too.
Fuel is also getting expensive in France,and Spain too,in fact when driving down to Spain,i refuse to use the Paege as their petrol was 1.euro 34cents,last time i came out of france,and diesel was 1 euro 15cents.
We are deaper in to debt than the last government would admit when they were fighting the election,but although many will cut their use of their cars,i dont see many giving them up.
Its grit your teeth and put up with it,and hope that GB can get back into the black,a bit sooner

[Daniel]

Right now I do want a new car but that's just because I'd just quite like one. Sadly, that doesn't automatically translate into me getting one though. As for getting something cheaper I think fuel could probably go up another 20p before I would think about specifically getting something more economical. The burden of some of my fuel costs are somewhat reduced by the amount of mileage I claim back from work as expenses. That said, if I were to get a new car I would almost definately be getting something cheaper to run. I only drive. 2.0l car now because that was the only engine available. My previous Pug 206 only had a 1.1ltr engine. I would miss the oomph of a more powerful car but I could get used to driving a more economical car again I would of thought.

I've thought about it and I don't think I could actually get rid of my car altogether. I dont think we could revert to being a one car household at all.

We were a one car household for a little while but it was a real pig.

You can certainly get used to driving a more economical car, the Subaru has a great engine in it but I quite enjoy driving the 500 even though it's only a 1.2 and gives away 130 horsepower.

If I were in the market for a new car and I wanted something cheap to run I'd get one of these -> http://www.topgear.com/uk/fiat/500/road-test/twinair-driven tis a bit expensive but they do hold their value well

£0 tax, it's going to be cheap to insure, combined consumption figures are 69.9 (!!!!!!!) and it's a petrol turbo rather than a turbo dismal so you don't get a big whack of torque and then nothing.

Driveace, you sound like David Cameron with your simplistic notions of being able to simply raise taxes to pay off debts. What the Con-Dem's are doing would be GREAT in a few years time when the economy is growing and able to shoulder the burden but right now they're stifling any chance of a recovery with taxes and cuts just at a time when things were looking up. If the economy doesn't go into a double dip recession then it's all great, but if it does it's going to be a lot worse than it's been over the last few years. It's not about gritting teeth or pulling up socks or other silly analogies, this is an economy and there's a fine line between soaring majesticly and a faceplant.

This whole thing about being deeper in debt than Labour admitted to is bull****, as Dave Brockman said the economy is a matter of public record so any politician who sucks in through clenched teeth and says "Ooh I didn't realise it was quite so bad" is a lying sack of crap.

[GridGirl]

You can certainly get used to driving a more economical car, the Subaru has a great engine in it but I quite enjoy driving the 500 even though it's only a 1.2 and gives away 130 horsepower.

If I were in the market for a new car and I wanted something cheap to run I'd get one of these -> http://www.topgear.com/uk/fiat/500/road-test/twinair-driven tis a bit expensive but they do hold their value well

£0 tax, it's going to be cheap to insure, combined consumption figures are 69.9 (!!!!!!!) and it's a petrol turbo rather than a turbo dismal so you don't get a big whack of torque and then nothing.

Sorry Daniel, but I just really don't like the look of the 500 so would never consider buying one. My small car of choice right now would actually be a Toyota IQ although I do fear it might actually be too small for my needs. I managed to spec a 1.3l IQ at just over £15k on the Toyota design your car jobbie before Christmas. I did go a bit crazy with the optional extras but that was alot of money for so little car. £15k might not be the price I'd pay and I didn't research the second hand Market but the costs were enough to delay me seriously thinking about getting something else right now. I'll stick with the gas gussler I own.

[Daniel]

The iQ is comically ugly and tiny inside though

[Sonic]

Yes fuel is now getting very expensive,but also is all the costs involved with motoring.It costs me £86 to diesel up,£415 road tax,annual test £50 odd pounds,and sevicing costs are rising too.
Fuel is also getting expensive in France,and Spain too,in fact when driving down to Spain,i refuse to use the Paege as their petrol was 1.euro 34cents,last time i came out of france,and diesel was 1 euro 15cents.
We are deaper in to debt than the last government would admit when they were fighting the election,but although many will cut their use of their cars,i dont see many giving them up.
Its grit your teeth and put up with it,and hope that GB can get back into the black,a bit sooner

£415 road tax?!? What do you drive, a hummer? (although that would be kinda cool ;) )

[Mark]

Probably a large, petrol, executive style estate car with a monster engine?

[pino]

The iQ is comically ugly and tiny inside though

Totally agree, IMHO the IQ is one the most ugly car on the marked at the moment :s

[Mark]

Just specced up a Fiesta to as close as I can to the model I have, and it's £2,000 more list price than the list price was when I bought it.

[Sonic]

Probably a large, petrol, executive style estate car with a monster engine?

It would have to be. But he's a driving instructor! :eek:

[Daniel]

Totally agree, IMHO the IQ is one the most ugly car on the marked at the moment :s

Yup. I'm not quite sure what there is to dislike about the looks of the Fiat 500? It's a little cutesy but you can put spec different wheels which make a big difference.

[GridGirl]

I love the little IQ. I would think about buying one if they were cheaper.

I can probably give you a long list of reason's of what is not to like about the 500. I dont think its cutesy at all. If a car was a animal, the 500 would be a snail. I don't know why but they just remind me of snails. :s Plus I don't think I would buy a car that would make my other half look gay if he was to drive it. A friend of mines other half only drive her 500 twice before she sold it and that was only because she was too tired to drive when heavily pregnant. He was another one that wouldnt drive the 500 becuase he didn't want people to think he was gay.

[schmenke]

...wouldnt drive the 500 becuase he didn't want people to think he was gay.

No offense GG, but that has got to be the stupidest reason to not buy a car :s .

[GridGirl]

Schmenke, there are many reason's why I don't like the 500 and why I wouldn't consider buying one. To be fair, it is not high on my list of reason's why I wouldn't buy one but it would still be at the back of my mind. The 500 is just one of those cars which I automatically think any man driving is a gay man. That is nothing against gay men before I get a bashing for being homophobic. I just think it just goes to show that I think they 500 is a really 'girly' car for want of a better word.

My friend loved her 500 until she sold it a couple of months ago. Her husband even bought her a private registration plate with 500 on it but he still refused point blankly to drive it for the reason's stated above. He was fine with the Mrs owning a driving it but he just didn't ever want to drive it himself.

[Sonic]

. I don't know why but they just remind me of snails.

What a great idea for a thread! I may start that one....

[Retro Formula 1]

Schmenke, there are many reason's why I don't like the 500 and why I wouldn't consider buying one. To be fair, it is not high on my list of reason's why I wouldn't buy one but it would still be at the back of my mind. The 500 is just one of those cars which I automatically think any man driving is a gay man. That is nothing against gay men before I get a bashing for being homophobic. I just think it just goes to show that I think they 500 is a really 'girly' car for want of a better word.

My friend loved her 500 until she sold it a couple of months ago. Her husband even bought her a private registration plate with 500 on it but he still refused point blankly to drive it for the reason's stated above. He was fine with the Mrs owning a driving it but he just didn't ever want to drive it himself.

Totally right and you shouldn't have to defend yourself on here.

I wouldn't be caught dead in one for the same reason but it's personal choice and up to the individual.

Nothing about being homophobic but just about not wanting to drive that particular car because of the image.

[ArrowsFA1]

...the government is simultaneously cutting income taxes in real terms by freezing thresholds and the upper earnings limit as well as cutting national insurance contributions – but only for employers, not employees. In the next financial year the Treasury estimates that the VAT increase will yield an extra £12.1bn in revenues. All of this is cast in the name of a vital contribution to deficit reduction. But the income tax measures, which disproportionately benefit the higher paid, as well as the NI cut represent an estimated loss to the exchequer of more than £6.6bn. There are also a host of additional tax cuts or freezes, including a cut in corporation tax, small business profits and council tax which together will amount to just under £12.6bn in the financial year 2014/15, according to official estimates. This is almost exactly the same as the expected yield then from the VAT hike of £13.45bn.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jan/05/vat-income-tax-national-insurance

[Daniel]

Schmenke, there are many reason's why I don't like the 500 and why I wouldn't consider buying one. To be fair, it is not high on my list of reason's why I wouldn't buy one but it would still be at the back of my mind. The 500 is just one of those cars which I automatically think any man driving is a gay man. That is nothing against gay men before I get a bashing for being homophobic. I just think it just goes to show that I think they 500 is a really 'girly' car for want of a better word.

My friend loved her 500 until she sold it a couple of months ago. Her husband even bought her a private registration plate with 500 on it but he still refused point blankly to drive it for the reason's stated above. He was fine with the Mrs owning a driving it but he just didn't ever want to drive it himself.

Personally I think you're just being silly here. Your friend's husband sounds like he's a bit insecure. It's a good car, I'd rather drive a good car that's a little girly than a **** one that's masculine.

I post on a fiat forum and yes there are a couple of gay people who do own 500's, but then again there are gay people who drive Panda's, Grande Punto's, Bravo's and so on.

There's a huge difference between our car
http://oi54.tinypic.com/f20xm9.jpg

and this

http://www.dieselstation.com/pics/Fiat-500C-Pink-Topless-2011-car-wallpapers.jpg

It's as silly as me thinking that you're a lesbian because you drive what some people would consider is more of a mans car than a girly little 1.2 Fester. Personally I'd rather have a reliable car which looks a bit girly than a manly car which needs a new clutch inside its warranty period ;)

Funnily enough when we were in Turin in the summer there were far more men driving 500's than women, perhaps the Italians aren't so insecure about their sexuality? :laugh:

[GridGirl]

I wouldn't say my friends husband is insecure. Like Skc said, it's an image thing and nothing specifically about the quality of the car itself. Skoda's arent rubbish anymore but some people still wouldnt drive them becuase of the past image. Each to thier own I guess. I must point out that the 500 isn't the only car where I think men driving them are gay. I'm not stupid enough to think that all the men are driving them are actually gay but thats just what it makes me think. Other cars and the people driving them automatically make me think WAG wannabe or mid-life crisis for example. Daniel, you can't honestly tell me you've never made an automatic assumption about a person driving a particular car even though you have nothing to prove you assumption is correct. I'm sure everyone has had the mid-life crisis thought at some point.

You do sound like your prosting a little too much but I know it's only because your a 500 fan boi to coin a phrase you like using. :p I was waiting for your sarkey comment about my Festa but thought you would have done slightly better than that. Poor effort, must try harder. :p

[donKey jote]

Funnily enough when we were in Turin in the summer there were far more men driving 500's than women, perhaps the Italians aren't so insecure about their sexuality? :laugh:

judging by the amount of Italian men who drive alfa's, I guess you might be onto something :erm: :dozey: :p : :arrows:

[Daniel]

I wouldn't say my friends husband is insecure. Like Skc said, it's an image thing and nothing specifically about the quality of the car itself. Skoda's arent rubbish anymore but some people still wouldnt drive them becuase of the past image. Each to thier own I guess. I must point out that the 500 isn't the only car where I think men driving them are gay. I'm not stupid enough to think that all the men are driving them are actually gay but thats just what it makes me think. Other cars and the people driving them automatically make me think WAG wannabe or mid-life crisis for example. Daniel, you can't honestly tell me you've never made an automatic assumption about a person driving a particular car even though you have nothing to prove you assumption is correct. I'm sure everyone has had the mid-life crisis thought at some point.

You do sound like your prosting a little too much but I know it's only because your a 500 fan boi to coin a phrase you like using. :p I was waiting for your sarkey comment about my Festa but thought you would have done slightly better than that. Poor effort, must try harder. :p

The image of Skoda is of VAG's making. To attempt to give Skoda a mainstream image would just take sales away from VW and Audi. They make some of their cars a little old fogeyish to appeal to people who don't want to be seen as fashionable who want something a bit more traditional. They also have the vRS range to appeal to younger drivers who don't quite want to stump up for the VW or Audi version and don't want the flamboyant looks of the sportier Seat's.

Not to be funny but I think your views on image aren't really all that worth listening to if I'm honest. Wasn't it you that spent a few thousand pounds on a Fiesta ST purely to get a stripe which a car graphics place would have probably done for £100 or so. Yes, sometimes cars have certain images (Range Rover Sport's, X5's Cayenne's and so on) but the 500 doesn't even have this supposed gay image that you're talking about.

P.S You can't coin a phrase that's already in use. To coin a phrase means to make up said phrase.

[Daniel]

Most people are aware the quality of the Skoda range has improved to VW standards now, but it was only 12 to 15 years ago when Skoda's were awful cars, and reputations/stigma's stick. Its silly, but its true. :)

But I think from a certain point of view VAG are happy with that stigma. Like I said, VAG have a big portfolio of brands and I think to a certain extent people like buying a product which if generally well built but which has the still has a slightly bad reputation because of past problems.

[Daniel]

I'm sure you are right and its a new generation of people buying these cars now who don't remember the Skoda's of 15 years ago.

Its all down to the individual with their perception of a brand. For example I often assume BMW, Audi, and Range Rover drivers are complete idiots and I tend not to give way when I see them lane chopping or cutting in at traffic queues. I have this perception and I drive an Audi myself lol. :)

:laugh: I must admit

What I meant was that people know the product is good but they know that other people think they're unreliable. People sometimes give me rubbish about driving a Fiat but I know from spending a couple of years on a forum with lots of 500 owners and loads of Panda owners with high mileage cars that the car is fundamentally solid and reliable :)

[Captain VXR]

the 500 doesn't even have this supposed gay image that you're talking about.


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_L-XlgbsEZfg/SmAkq19W0uI/AAAAAAAAKiM/mmfXBh7ssXc/s400/NewFiat500pink1.jpg
Who's more likely to drive this - Louis Spence or Lewis Hamilton? :p

[Daniel]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_L-XlgbsEZfg/SmAkq19W0uI/AAAAAAAAKiM/mmfXBh7ssXc/s400/NewFiat500pink1.jpg
Who's more likely to drive this - Louis Spence or Lewis Hamilton? :p
Well I did post a picture of a pink 500 above .......

There are pink coloured versions of all sorts of cars :)

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_q8kBt8ooNTE/S73He0FQqSI/AAAAAAAADUg/eBnLkB7JErI/s1600/Doha-PinkLambo-1.jpg

[Rollo]

Who's more likely to drive this - Louis Spence or Lewis Hamilton? :p

Lewis Hamilton. He will have bought it for his Pussycat Doll girlfriend and then been stuck with it once she'd lost interest in it.
Go to any shopping centre on a Saturday morning, and you'll see a silent army of men in shops looking forlorn as their WAGs take them from shop to shop. Lewis looks like one of those. He drives Formula One cars for some peace and quiet :D

[Daniel]

Lewis Hamilton. He will have bought it for his Pussycat Doll girlfriend and then been stuck with it once she'd lost interest in it.
Go to any shopping centre on a Saturday morning, and you'll see a silent army of men in shops looking forlorn as their WAGs take them from shop to shop. Lewis looks like one of those. He drives Formula One cars for some peace and quiet :D
Rollo, are you on aussiefrogs now that you've got a pug? :p

[Mark]

You have to admit, there *are* perceptions built up around if a particular car is a 'girls' car or not. It's no coincidence, manufacturers are not allowed to promote their cars based on how fast they go, so instead concentrate on making cars appeal to specific demographics.

Otherwise VW would just make VW's, as after all Audi, Skoda and SEAT are all essentially the same cars!