Prostitution

[Roamy]

Is Prostitution legal in your country? I find it disgusting that in the US we have divisions of police forces running around trying to incarcerate consenting men and women for spending a few bucks for a night of happiness.

What say you??

[Captain VXR]

If people over the age of consent wish to purchase or sell sex, I don't see why they shouldn't tbh

[race aficionado]

fousto,
in my case I have never paid a nickel to be with a woman but nevertheless:
I feel that if it is treated as a profession following health and legal regulations and you have clients that are paying for services rendered and no one is getting hurt in the process (and here I don't include whoever's feelings are hurt if the ******* cheats on the partner) - it is fine with me.

:p imp:

[Eki]

It used to be legal in Finland, then it used to be illegal, then legal again and now I think it's legal to sell sex but not buy. However, pimping has been illegal all the time. Ho, ho, ho :s anta:

[Zeakiwi]

Prostitution has been legal in New Zealand for a number of years now.

The current system is not perfect. There are still street walkers and underage girls. Prostitutes are still murdered.
Another big negative is parents who push daughters into the game(because it is legal) to support the family.

The alleged positive is that Police supposedly have more time to track runaways and detect underage girls rather than arresting old hoes.

Other issues are the location of 'operations' in residential areas and 'foreign students' doing things other than classroom study.

Probably on balance it is a positive advance on the 'illegal' massage parlour days, where there were arrests for having durex onsite. Bad clients can be apprehended because those involved with the game can talk to each other / network to protect themselves and the info passed onto police.

[Easy Drifter]

The actual act is legal in Canada. Everything around it is illegal (maybe). Recently a Judge threw out all the laws about soliciting, keeping a bawdy house and so on as unconstitiutional, mostly on the grounds of safety for the prostitutes.
The Govt. has 'stayed' the decision for several months while they decide what to do. They have not come up with a solution yet. My guess is they will appeal to the Surpreme Court but the judge who made the ruling spent a year coming to her conclusions and wrote a several thousand page decision so the Surpreme Court very likely would agree.
In the meantime charges continue to be laid.
Once the 'stay' period is over it will be wide open unless appealed or new legislation brought in.

[Tazio]

As far as I know it is legal in Nye Co Nevada. (not to be confused with Clark County which is where Las Vegas is) I also believe there are some areas in Northern Nevada where it is legal but I'm not sure about that. One of the many problems I have with this issue philosophically is that I think there are a lot of young women that get involved with this activity legally, or illegally that get the mindset "Once a hooker always a hooker" This is not very good for their self esteem. Combine that with a woman that is forced into the "profession", whether it is through the threat of violence or just a sudden need for a steady stream of income. Unless this is closely monitored these lives may well will be severely damaged before the young women have the sense to have a contingency plan to get out, and on with their lives and join "Posthookeralizationism Anonymous" (That's not a word or an association btw) ;)
But seriously are the penalty's that severe? I think If you are running a full blown Brothel and are caught, you would probably be hit with a Federal inditement, the same one that took down the original "Mr Alcatraz"... "Big Al Capone"...... Tax Evasion. :(

[gloomyDAY]

Good for the consumer, bad for the hookers.

Sure, there are a few Madams who make a fortune off of their sex slaves, but the women who actually do the deed more often then not end up in body bags. Suicide, drug use, or murder are the usual culprits for their deaths.

In short, I'm all for it being legalized here! I'd pimp with a heavy hand.

[Koz]

Prostitution has been legal in New Zealand for a number of years now.

The current system is not perfect. There are still street walkers and underage girls. Prostitutes are still murdered.
Another big negative is parents who push daughters into the game(because it is legal) to support the family.

The alleged positive is that Police supposedly have more time to track runaways and detect underage girls rather than arresting old hoes.

Other issues are the location of 'operations' in residential areas and 'foreign students' doing things other than classroom study.

Probably on balance it is a positive advance on the 'illegal' massage parlour days, where there were arrests for having durex onsite. Bad clients can be apprehended because those involved with the game can talk to each other / network to protect themselves and the info passed onto police.

I used to see hookers of some sort every day past 6 on my way home from work. Every now and then I'd see one who'd jump out in front of traffic and flash them. There's usually one of those safe sex wagons there distributing condoms later in the night.

Papatoetoe is probably the worst in Auckland... Hundreds of them roaming the streets, mostly transsexuals.

They opened a house of such next to some school last year caused some commotion.

There's about half a dozen with 100m of the Sky Tower, one next to the entrance...

Personally, I'd rather have all these freaks off the streets and somewhere I don't have to see them.

[anthonyvop]

fousto,
in my case I have never paid a nickel to be with a woman but nevertheless:


:p imp:

Any man who says that is only fooling themselves!
It may not be cash but we have all paid in one form or the other.

Don't believe me?
Try dating a women without buying her dinner or movie tickets or gifts....etc.

Sure you will run into the occasional slut but for the vast majority we have to pay.

Even that engagement ring is just a down-payment.

[race aficionado]

Any man who says that is only fooling themselves!
It may not be cash but we have all paid in one form or the other.

Don't believe me?
Try dating a women without buying her dinner or movie tickets or gifts....etc.

Sure you will run into the occasional slut but for the vast majority we have to pay.

Even that engagement ring is just a down-payment.

the topic is prostitution . . . . . . :dozey:

. . . . . what ever . . . . .

[62motorsport]

Anyone man enough on here to own up going with a 'lady of the night' ?

[Tazio]

Anyone man enough on here to own up going with a 'lady of the night' ?MR Alcatraz is exercising his Fifth Amendment Right :uhoh: :colour:

[Koz]

Anyone man enough on here to own up going with a 'lady of the night' ?

Yes... But I didn't know till the next day. Most interesting woman I have ever met.. :(

[Zeakiwi]

I used to see hookers of some sort every day past 6 on my way home from work. Every now and then I'd see one who'd jump out in front of traffic and flash them. There's usually one of those safe sex wagons there distributing condoms later in the night.

Papatoetoe is probably the worst in Auckland... Hundreds of them roaming the streets, mostly transsexuals.

They opened a house of such next to some school last year caused some commotion.

There's about half a dozen with 100m of the Sky Tower, one next to the entrance...

Personally, I'd rather have all these freaks off the streets and somewhere I don't have to see them.

Obviously Dick Quax (a former elite running athlete) never cleaned up Papatoetoe in his last term on the council.
There are Politicians who want to repeal the existing law.
It is probably up to the Auckland Council to clean up the streets with a bylaw and police enforcement. Though like those squeegee bandits making your windscreen dirty, a banning bylaw does not make nuisance people in public places disappear.

[Koz]

Obviously Dick Quax (a former elite running athlete) never cleaned up Papatoetoe in his last term on the council.
There are Politicians who want to repeal the existing law.
It is probably up to the Auckland Council to clean up the streets with a bylaw and police enforcement. Though like those squeegee bandits making your windscreen dirty, a banning bylaw does not make nuisance people in public places disappear.

Where else would those frearks go seeing as the Labour government financed sex transplant operations, while people were dying...

I can accept gay people, people who want to have relationships with poodles or sheep... But I have a problem with people who want to cut of their you know what... That's ****ed up...

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opunake/news/article.cfm?l_id=500551&objectid=10341790

I am sorry, but that's pretty sick ****. I don't want my tax money wasted on sick twisted freaks like that. While good honest people are dying... So there freaks can be hooking in Manurewa or Papatoe...

PS: I usually tell those windscreen fellows I got no money and get my windscreen cleaned for free. :p

[markabilly]

MR Alcatraz is exercising his Fifth Amendment Right :uhoh: :colour:
she say, "hey Alcatazio, don't you still owe me some money??? You can excercise that Fifth Member all night long by yourself, but don't make me come chopping......

[Tazio]

Well you know what I say: "Don't come choppin', if the trailer is rockin' "

I don't recall the wee lass coming on to me that way, but my memory isn't what it used to be

Here is the video that I understand you would have made quite a bit of royalties for if it hadn't been banned:

KShkhIXdf1Y

[Roamy]

Anyone man enough on here to own up going with a 'lady of the night' ?

How many do you want to know about ???

[odykas]

Prostitution is the oldest profession.
I believe it should be legal for businesses that have a license to operate as a services provider and comply with regulations.

[markabilly]

Well you know what I say: "Don't come choppin', if the trailer is rockin' "

I don't recall the wee lass coming on to me that way, but my memory isn't what it used to be

Here is the video that I understand you would have made quite a bit of royalties for if it hadn't been banned:

KShkhIXdf1Y


Yep, I am still PO ed over that....even worse was that they made me wear that funny looking wig to hide those sores.....all for no money in the end (well you know what I mean)

had to put my old woodchucker lady to working overtime to buy gifts for christmas, but she does love her work (as you know)

you better pay up, she be out in the shed sharping up ole LeeRoy as I type...

[Zeakiwi]

It would appear the Auckland local politicians are waking up after many years.

http://nz.news.yahoo.com/opinion/post/-/blog/boiling_point/post/14/comment/1/

There is expected to be many foreigners who travel to NZ for the Rugby World Cup not to watch the rugby but provide services.

[gloomyDAY]

Any man who says that is only fooling themselves!
It may not be cash but we have all paid in one form or the other.

Don't believe me?
Try dating a women without buying her dinner or movie tickets or gifts....etc.

Sure you will run into the occasional slut but for the vast majority we have to pay.

Even that engagement ring is just a down-payment.Well, if that's the route you had to take in life to get laid, then you're pathetic. My rule of thumb is to never buy a woman anything until you've had sex with her, period. Unless she's a friend, which changes the rules. You can't have sex with a female friend and still have a friendship. Just doesn't work!

Also, I've noticed that good girlfriends will pay for themselves and trade gifts. Those are the girls that you treasure the most because they put you on a pedestal.

Let me guess Tony, divorced? Now go ahead and tell me about your experiences that are related to this thread. How many prostitutes have you had in you life? :)

[JackSparrow]

It should be legal everywhere! A lot of marriages would be saved :s mokin:

[Tazio]

It should be legal everywhere! A lot of marriages would be saved :s mokin:I'll take it one step further, a lot of unhappy marriages and divorces, with children being the ultimate victims would be averted!

[gadjo_dilo]

It should be legal everywhere! A lot of marriages would be saved :s mokin:

How?

[JackSparrow]

How?

Because mistresses ask you to divorce your wife,prostitutes ask you for 200$,and you still get to go home with a smile to a loving wife ;)

[Wade91]

i think its a pretty pointless law, i mean i really dont see a problem with it, if someone wants to pay for sex, its their bussiness its not gonna hurt anyone,

[gadjo_dilo]

Because mistresses ask you to divorce your wife,prostitutes ask you for 200$,and you still get to go home with a smile to a loving wife ;)

Nah......Legal or illegal prostitution is the oldest job in the world. Even in countries where it's illegal the phenomen exists and is flourishing.
Legalization made sense in the past when shame, chastity and moral were at high price. Now we're living in a world where things like threesomes, swingers, gay relationships, etc. don't shock anybody. When you need an occasional partner is easy to get one. You needn't go to a borthel, it's enough to go a club.
Not to mention that ( at least in my country ) if a wife finds out you were at wh*res ...you don't want to know what she does

[ShiftingGears]

I find that if it's legalised at least there are registered brothels where the prostitutes are screened, so the clientele does not end up contracting and spreading sexually transmitted infections. That is probably the biggest positive from legalising prostitution.

Of course, there will always be illegal brothels unwilling to comply with laws concerning prostitution. But I don't think that people are going to suddenly flock to brothels just because they are legal. So besides people being unwilling to admit a few home truths, I haven't heard much of an argument against legalising prostitution.

[Rudy Tamasz]

When you need an occasional partner is easy to get one.

It's not easy to get rid of one in the morning, though. Most women I know will not be satisfied with a one night stand. They won't care whether you have a family or not. They will start texting you, calling you etc.

The easiest way to prevent problems is to not get involved in extramarrital affairs at all, but that's another topic.

[Tomi]

I think it's a bit same like with abortion, a woman can choose for her self what she does and dont do, if someone is forced to prostitution thats an other story offcourse.

[Bob Riebe]

I think it's a bit same like with abortion, a woman can choose for her self what she does and dont do, if someone is forced to prostitution thats an other story offcourse.

Good, someone here finally mentions the other side of prostitution, a very brutal side involving rape, beatings and murder.

[Tazio]

I mentioned it in post #7 Bob, but I'm glad you stated it a bit more graphically.
Street walkers in major metropolitan areas of the U.S. live in constant peril, and I don't mean from the police.

[driveace]

It's not easy to get rid of one in the morning, though. Most women I know will not be satisfied with a one night stand. They won't care whether you have a family or not. They will start texting you, calling you etc.

The easiest way to prevent problems is to not get involved in extramarrital affairs at all, but that's another topic.

i agree with you Rudy,had lots of short relationships,that i did not want to be serious about,just wam bang thank you mam,BUT to get rid of them is an headache,they can be nasty bitches!!!!
But i do believe it should be legalised,and policed by some licenced authority.
Especially as 3 prostitutes were killed in this last year in Bradford by a guy,who liked to be known as the "cross bow cannibal" If ALL the girls were OFF the strrets and in a Base,then this guy may not have been able to have taken then back to his residence to ikill them.

[JackSparrow]

It's not easy to get rid of one in the morning, though. Most women I know will not be satisfied with a one night stand. They won't care whether you have a family or not. They will start texting you, calling you etc.

The easiest way to prevent problems is to not get involved in extramarrital affairs at all, but that's another topic.

The point I was making!

That's why working girls get paid...............to leave ;)

[race aficionado]

The point I was making!

That's why working girls get paid...............to leave ;)
. . . a probable varied assortment of venereal diseases and other unwelcome crawly species . . . .

:bones:

[Sonic]

I've shared a car with one...

My mates still rib me to this day about this;

Tiny bit of back story first. I'm a driving instructor during the week and had a new pupil to meet. She gave me the address as an apartment block and told me to wait in the road and text her to come down. I pull up at the time and place and as I'm sending her the text I get a knock at my window (can you see where this is going? ;) ).

Long story short. I start to give a lesson to a very confused hooker only realising my mistake when my pupil calls me to ask where I was.

Epic fail! Thank God the old bill weren't out - how would I have explained that one? :D

[Drew]

Hookers are everywhere in Berlin at night, if you go out at night you'll definitely be hassled by one. It's legal and the German government gets taxes from it, so it surprises me that it's not legal in the UK!

[Rudy Tamasz]

Hookers are everywhere in Berlin at night, if you go out at night you'll definitely be hassled by one. It's legal and the German government gets taxes from it, so it surprises me that it's not legal in the UK!

Here's another problem. My friends were in Hamburg, Germany, which is a lot like Berlin in this respect, even more. When they took a cab, the driver offered to find a girl for them for just 30 Euro, any looks, any race (they did not solicit the offer, just FYI ;) ). He said that if they wanted to go to a legal brothel, it would cost them up to a 100. Needless to say, his offer most likely referred to girls managed by a pimp, quite possibly coming from poor countries and staying in Germany illegally and definitely not paying any taxes and having zero medical checks.

No matter if you legalize it, this business will always have some criminal underbelly. I am afraid that this is problem that has no solution.

[JackSparrow]

. . . a probable varied assortment of venereal diseases and other unwelcome crawly species . . . .

:bones:

Thats a big misconception! The first class work girl gets checked and is more safe than any regular girl! Because she is a PRO!
You got a better chance to get the mentioned above from a girl you pick at the bar or an unfaithful girlfriend ;)

[Mark in Oshawa]

It is quasi legal here in Canada, and a lot of independent girls claim to be happy doing it, but they really have to be careful about how they advertise their services. In short, as Drifter pointed out, there is nothing illegal about it, but it is illegal to own a house where it happens, advertise the service is available, or basically admit to being involved...

weird..but hey, that's Canada's legal system, trying to be everything to everyone.

Well, the Supreme Court has called the bluff..and the government doesn't want to deal with this issue, since no matter what they decide, about 30% of population will fry their ass on the spot and the middle ground of Canadians will flip a coin.....

[Mark in Oshawa]

BTW, no I haven't...and yes, it should be legal in some form....better than the wink wink say no more stuff we have going on in North America.

AS for Tony's views on women, Well being a troglodyte is hard work apparently..no woman wants to love ya...

[Drew]

Here's another problem. My friends were in Hamburg, Germany, which is a lot like Berlin in this respect, even more. When they took a cab, the driver offered to find a girl for them for just 30 Euro, any looks, any race (they did not solicit the offer, just FYI ;) ). He said that if they wanted to go to a legal brothel, it would cost them up to a 100. Needless to say, his offer most likely referred to girls managed by a pimp, quite possibly coming from poor countries and staying in Germany illegally and definitely not paying any taxes and having zero medical checks.

No matter if you legalize it, this business will always have some criminal underbelly. I am afraid that this is problem that has no solution.

Of course it will have a criminal side to it, in reality most things do. But if it's made legal then the people who want to work as prostitutes will have more protection and safety as will the punters. It will take trade away from the criminals and put legal money into the economy. I have never used one nor ever will, but if there is consensual demand and supply for this, then I fail to see the problem.

[Zeakiwi]

Just an update.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10702523

[BDunnell]

Hookers are everywhere in Berlin at night, if you go out at night you'll definitely be hassled by one. It's legal and the German government gets taxes from it, so it surprises me that it's not legal in the UK!

Certainly not everywhere in Berlin, I might add. In fact, only on one street, Oranienburger Strasse, is it likely at all in my experience of living there. Even on that road, they were effectively banished for some years, before being allowed back again prior to the World Cup in 2006!

[Koz]

Just an update.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10702523

Bah. Won't happen.

As soon as street hookers are banned in Papatoetoe and Manurewa they'll move down the road to Otara and Clendon, and that won't end well for anyone at all.


If they can't do a "blanket ban" to get them off the streets they might as well leave them where they are.

[Retro Formula 1]

This thread has inspired me to get an Avatar

[billiaml]

Excellent choice, skc!

It's my understanding that, here in the U.S., it's up to the states as to whether or not it's legal. It's just illegal in every state but Nevada. And I think the IRS seized a brothel called "The Mustang Ranch," and operated it for a while. I also seem to recall reading that, while the government operated the ranch, it lost money. (lol -- who else but the government could lose money on prostitution?)

[markabilly]

You be correct.....government knows how to screw you and take your money, but there was something about the IRS agent at the front door that sort of put off people...
....


And the difference between the government and the hooker is that they both screw you, but with the hooker, there is a chance that you might actually enjoy it

[Drew]

Certainly not everywhere in Berlin, I might add. In fact, only on one street, Oranienburger Strasse, is it likely at all in my experience of living there. Even on that road, they were effectively banished for some years, before being allowed back again prior to the World Cup in 2006!

Well everywhere was an overstatement, but they are certainly in more places than just Oranienburger Strasse.

[Roamy]

Here we go again - Only in America

At least a dozen Secret Service agents sent home from Colombia for misconduct, prostitution involved (http://politics.blogs.foxnews.com/2012/04/14/least-dozen-secret-service-agents-sent-home-colombia-misconduct-prostitution-involved)
Can you believe we are sooooooooooo worried about a piece of ass. Plus the other day we arrested a beautiful teacher for giving a 16 or 17 year old kid a blow job. They want to put her in prison.
So the old president is embarking on a 33 country visit and we have to start him off with this announcement. Plus tell their wives and girlfriends and kids. Atty General Holder even looks like a chicken rat

[Koz]

"Only in America"

Is it really that big a deal?
I assume they aren't all on a 24 hour shift... So can't boys just have a bit of fun?
And is prostitution illegal in Columbia?

[Rollo]

Prostitution is the oldest profession.

How would a client pay for such a thing unless they themselves firstly had some form of employment?

[Roamy]

"Only in America"

Is it really that big a deal?
I assume they aren't all on a 24 hour shift... So can't boys just have a bit of fun?
And is prostitution illegal in Columbia?

It is legal in Colombia -

[BDunnell]

It is legal in Colombia -

Not strictly true, according to one report I read — it is legal in some areas, not all.

[fandango]

One of the problems with the legalise prostitution debate is that most publications have articles studying the issue which are really only thinly-veiled excuses to publish photos of racy-looking ladies. So they're really just perpetuating the whole thing.

The question is a feminist one, and it's about how society views women who work as sex workers. There are few people who would respect such people as skilled professional workers. Many say they do respect them, me included, but I have two daughters so I don't need to go any further with that thought before I find myself face to face with my own prejudices.

So, the question is not simply "do we want to allow boys to be boys?" It's much deeper than that, because everyone is someone's child, sister, cousin etc If legalising prostitution just makes it easier to buy sexual acts without addressing how we feel about it as a society it probably won't solve anything. And that's not even mentioning male prostitutes, or female clients...

[BDunnell]

One of the problems with the legalise prostitution debate is that most publications have articles studying the issue which are really only thinly-veiled excuses to publish photos of racy-looking ladies. So they're really just perpetuating the whole thing.

The question is a feminist one, and it's about how society views women who work as sex workers. There are few people who would respect such people as skilled professional workers. Many say they do respect them, me included, but I have two daughters so I don't need to go any further with that thought before I find myself face to face with my own prejudices.

So, the question is not simply "do we want to allow boys to be boys?" It's much deeper than that, because everyone is someone's child, sister, cousin etc If legalising prostitution just makes it easier to buy sexual acts without addressing how we feel about it as a society it probably won't solve anything. And that's not even mentioning male prostitutes, or female clients...

You raise very good, and eloquent, points. The problem with prohibiting prostitution is akin to that with illegal drugs — that it is literally impossible to eradicate it altogether. Best, surely, to cease trying to brush under the carpet the fact that it exists, and look at how it can best function outside the realms of illegality, while all the time taking steps in society to eradicate the root causes that push people into prostitution.

[Jag_Warrior]

Here we go again - Only in America

At least a dozen Secret Service agents sent home from Colombia for misconduct, prostitution involved (http://politics.blogs.foxnews.com/2012/04/14/least-dozen-secret-service-agents-sent-home-colombia-misconduct-prostitution-involved)
Can you believe we are sooooooooooo worried about a piece of ass. Plus the other day we arrested a beautiful teacher for giving a 16 or 17 year old kid a blow job. They want to put her in prison.

An adult (male or female) pursing a sexual relationship with a minor vs. a pay-for-play arrangement between consenting adults is apples & oranges. The woman, beautiful or not, deserves to be in jail - if it's the same case I'm thinking about. She abused her position and broke the law. She should serve time and then be registered as a "sex offender", so that she is forever prevented from being around children once she gets out of prison.

In the case of the Secret Service agents, I'm assuming part of the problem relates to security concerns.

As for prostitution itself, on the issue of that, drugs and many other social topics, I try to remain as libertarian as possible. As long as what you're doing isn't hurting someone else, go for it. It's none of my (or the government's) business, the way I see it.

[Roamy]

Well I would shutter to think I would ever rat on my beautiful high school teacher for giving me a blow job.

[Jag_Warrior]

Well I would shutter to think I would ever rat on my beautiful high school teacher for giving me a blow job.

And there are probably more than a few 15-17 year old girls who'd feel the same way if their male teacher looked like Brad Pitt and bedded them. But I am very much opposed to adult teachers using their classrooms as fishing ponds. We have laws regarding minors for a very good reason: people who are not yet (legally) able to make certain decisions for themselves should not be preyed upon by those who are.

[driveace]

But it keeps cropping up where a male teacher or lecturer is having sex with pupils he teaches.In uni,s it's usually that the pupil feels it will help her in her studies,but we should be able to TRUST these teachers with our children .On another note ,the last 3times I have come back from Spain on the Calais Dover ferry,there has been a very smartly dressed young girl who is not good with the English language,accompanying an older 30 ish foreign guy ,she tries to cuddle and kiss this guy,but he is pushing her away.I feel these girls are being bought nice clothes,and promised the earth to be brought into the U K sex trade.,and not to do what they have been promised.

[airshifter]

How would a client pay for such a thing unless they themselves firstly had some form of employment?

If you go to the area in question in Columbia we can all chip in and buy you a goat. All we ask is that you let us know how the negotiations go from that point. :laugh:

[schmenke]

And there are probably more than a few 15-17 year old girls who'd feel the same way if their male teacher looked like Brad Pitt and bedded them. But I am very much opposed to adult teachers using their classrooms as fishing ponds. We have laws regarding minors for a very good reason: people who are not yet (legally) able to make certain decisions for themselves should not be preyed upon by those who are.

Indeed.

Teachers are more than just educators. They are in a position of influence where both their instruction and actions can have an impact on young students. As such, they are partly entrusted to uphold a certain degree of respectability and trust within our society.

This is one of the reasons that the teaching profession is one of only 4 in Canada that has a code of both standards and ethics are enacted by Federal law.

A few years ago a high school teacher was convicted and imprisoned in Ontario for having sexual relations with a student.

[Roamy]

well I have to admit the I totally believe in a double standard here. but most of us do except "oh I am politically correct" Hang the female offender - pass the "HEAD" teacher around :)

[Roamy]

You raise very good, and eloquent, points. The problem with prohibiting prostitution is akin to that with illegal drugs — that it is literally impossible to eradicate it altogether. Best, surely, to cease trying to brush under the carpet the fact that it exists, and look at how it can best function outside the realms of illegality, while all the time taking steps in society to eradicate the root causes that push people into prostitution.

basically I am seeing to completely different problems. forced prostitution and giving it up for a little coin. forced prostitution of a minor should be punishable by death. forced prostitution should be severely punished. prostitution one on one should be ignored. We obviously know all the associated problems i.e. drug induced prostitution etc. In our culture none of this is going away. money and drugs = sex. So with prostitution i think you are better off to tax it and manage it from a health standpoint

[Jag_Warrior]

well I have to admit the I totally believe in a double standard here. but most of us do except "oh I am politically correct" Hang the female offender - pass the "HEAD" teacher around :)

If it's "politically correct" these days to believe in treating ALL adult sexual predators the same, then I am proud to be called "politically correct". :wave:

If I had a 16 year old son (or a daughter), I would be sending him to school to get the best education possible... not drink beer, smoke pot and spend evenings at some emotionally insecure 40 year old woman's house, when he should be studying. And what if he got her pregnant or caught an STD from this female deviant?

In theory and in practice, I do my best to treat everyone the same. Unlike some, I do not believe in one set of standards/rules/laws for one group and another set of standards/rules/laws for other groups. So, as I consider adult females just as capable as adult males in controlling their base, sexual desires when they're around underage young people: "what's good for the goose, is good for the gander".

If an adult female has this issue and cannot control herself, then she may wind up in jail... or dead (as the one in Pennsylvania did a decade or so ago - not all parents are as "liberal" as those who don't mind their young sons being molested by adult females ;) ).


BTW, I would totally separate the topic of child sexual abuse from this discussion about (consensual) prostitution. The latter probably puts us on a thin line with the board's guidelines to begin with. But the former (IMO) probably crosses the guidelines by a mile (if there are those who are arguing in support of paedos). So this will be my last reply to the former topic. Wrong is wrong. Nothing more to be said.

[schmenke]

Touchy subject.

[donKey jote]

It seems to have come to a head, too.

[schmenke]

For a meaningful discussion we need to consider all the ins and outs.

[Roamy]

yes it has been a heavy load on the guilty

[race aficionado]

You're blowing this out of proportion.

[schmenke]

Well, let’s not pull out too early.

[Roamy]

this thread is too long time to go eat

[race aficionado]

Home cooking? or a la carte.

[schmenke]

Home cooking? or a la carte. :rotflmao: In fousto's case it'll likely be fast food :p :

[Roamy]

i prefer Latina food

[gadjo_dilo]

It's illegal in Romania but highly practicated. Probably one of our best exports....
The places where you can get "gagici" are well known and sometimes police pretend to do a round-up and fine a few of them.

But honestly I can't understand how a man can be attracted by one of the "little girls" from the Bucharest belt.
From time to time a senator or a deputy would come with a project of a prostitution law. I suppose it's their way to justify their sleep in the parliament and to get some attention ( such projects usually attract a vawe of protests and debates ). The eternal motivation " the tolerance houses will pay taxes to the state and the girls will be under medical control " is just laughable.

[driveace]

I have travelled in Hungary where these girls wait by lay-bys,usually very smart and usually with an umbrella in hand.And came out of Denmark by ferry from the Island that has Kobnhaven on it,and on entering Germany there were motor homes reversed down every side road on this road leading into a small town.All had a step out,and if the girl was available ,she was sat in the cab, if she was busy,then a red light was lit hanging from the mirror .And coming up the N340 in Spain the girls,a lot have eaten a lot of pies too,are sat on plastic chairs at the Side of the road,usually at the bottom of a dirt road .It's every where !

[ioan]

An adult (male or female) pursing a sexual relationship with a minor vs. a pay-for-play arrangement between consenting adults is apples & oranges. The woman, beautiful or not, deserves to be in jail - if it's the same case I'm thinking about. She abused her position and broke the law. She should serve time and then be registered as a "sex offender", so that she is forever prevented from being around children once she gets out of prison.

Funny view that is.
In Europe you don't go to jail for having sex with a person over 16 unless it is rape, which would be prosecuted no matter the age.
Most young people in Europe over 16 have sex regularly, what's bad in that?!

[Roamy]

i just find it incredible that the whole world is running behind some poor girl worrying about her pussy and if some guy gets a little strange stuff. My God the secret service guys were just being boys. The will be lucky
if they don't have to stand trial at the Hague for dick wandering. Christ they may overthrow Italy. Just think when the muslims take over. Then the poor girl will get stoned to death.

[BDunnell]

Funny view that is.
In Europe you don't go to jail for having sex with a person over 16 unless it is rape, which would be prosecuted no matter the age.
Most young people in Europe over 16 have sex regularly, what's bad in that?!

I do find it very strange that an arbitrary choice of age should mean that the mere matter of a day is the difference between being a criminal and not.

[BDunnell]

basically I am seeing to completely different problems. forced prostitution and giving it up for a little coin. forced prostitution of a minor should be punishable by death. forced prostitution should be severely punished. prostitution one on one should be ignored. We obviously know all the associated problems i.e. drug induced prostitution etc. In our culture none of this is going away. money and drugs = sex. So with prostitution i think you are better off to tax it and manage it from a health standpoint

I don't disagree with any of that, except the death penalty bit, of course.

[Tazio]

I do find it very strange that an arbitrary choice of age should mean that the mere matter of a day is the difference between being a criminal and not.
I don't know how many cases of statutory rape are actually prosecuted in a close age scenario. In today’s environment of do-gooders and political correctness nothing would amaze me. When I was 18 my 17 year old girlfriend and I were playing "hide the Salami" in the back of my parents station wagon on a place called Fiesta Island in Mission Bay. A cop caught us with our pants down (actually she managed to get hers mostly on although they were inside out). We had some alcohol which we were both under the age to have. I was about 15 months older than her. The cop simply told me to pour out the alcohol, informed me that he could have arrested me for as he put it, "Felony Dumb $hit," and told us to be on our way. Things have probably changed in California since 1972. I have not made a study of such matters.

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[Roamy]

Can you believe the F____king idiots we have in office - Here is the latest quote

Chuck Grassley: Colombian prostitutes or Russian spies?

This guy has probably never be laid in his life. And if so it probably had 4 legs. Do you think we have a problem in Washington or what.

[BDunnell]

Can you believe the F____king idiots we have in office - Here is the latest quote

Chuck Grassley: Colombian prostitutes or Russian spies?

This guy has probably never be laid in his life. And if so it probably had 4 legs. Do you think we have a problem in Washington or what.

What you do have a problem with is paranoia relating to security issues.

[janvanvurpa]

I don't know how many cases of statutory rape are actually prosecuted in a close age scenario. In today’s environment of do-gooders and political correctness nothing would amaze me.

Oh it happens often enough. a fired had a girlfriend who was late 15, he was late 17, no problems...within a week of turning 18 he was arrested and charged and convicted of rape of a minor since he was (gasp!!!!)"three years older".....5 years in Oregon Prison....Happens when a prosecutor wants to mollify some Bible thumping hypocrites...
This was maybe 8 years ago... Life is rough as a convicted felon and sex offender, nobody will hire him...

[Rudy Tamasz]

I do find it very strange that an arbitrary choice of age should mean that the mere matter of a day is the difference between being a criminal and not.

This is a classic issue for debate in philosophy. How many grains does it take to have a pile?

What would be your solution, then?

[D-Type]

Oh it happens often enough. a fired had a girlfriend who was late 15, he was late 17, no problems...within a week of turning 18 he was arrested and charged and convicted of rape of a minor since he was (gasp!!!!)"three years older".....5 years in Oregon Prison....Happens when a prosecutor wants to mollify some Bible thumping hypocrites...
This was maybe 8 years ago... Life is rough as a convicted felon and sex offender, nobody will hire him...


This is a classic issue for debate in philosophy. How many grains does it take to have a pile?

What would be your solution, then?
As described, this does sound a harsh verdict. Appropriate to a 30-year old adult who should know better. But the 17-18 year old presumably knew what the law is - at that age we certainly did even if we only fantasised about it.

Is the answer is to have sentencing guidelines for judges. Not published for public consumption, but available to judges, and possibly to legal counsel (as they'll find out anyway), on a confidential basis.

How to police it is difficult. Prosecutors will appeal against an excessively light sentence and they should (in an ideal world) also appeal against excessively heavy ones but they won't. The private individual often can't afford the legal costs for an appeal. So should the committee setting the guidelines be charged with making an appeal in this sort of case. As part of their scrutiny they should advise/ admonish judges for excessively heavy and excessively light sentences.

A tricky issue.

[Roamy]

As described, this does sound a harsh verdict. Appropriate to a 30-year old adult who should know better. But the 17-18 year old presumably knew what the law is - at that age we certainly did even if we only fantasised about it.

Is the answer is to have sentencing guidelines for judges. Not published for public consumption, but available to judges, and possibly to legal counsel (as they'll find out anyway), on a confidential basis.

How to police it is difficult. Prosecutors will appeal against an excessively light sentence and they should (in an ideal world) also appeal against excessively heavy ones but they won't. The private individual often can't afford the legal costs for an appeal. So should the committee setting the guidelines be charged with making an appeal in this sort of case. As part of their scrutiny they should advise/ admonish judges for excessively heavy and excessively light sentences.

A tricky issue.

Two problems:
1. the guy should have not been put in prison
2. Parents should be able to consent for the minor.

prosecutors get a track record by sending people to prison- so they don't give a sh!t about anything but incarceration.
the track record gets them a better job with a legal defense firm.

[Tazio]

They publish lists that show where each registered sex offender lives in local papers and are easy to find on the internet. That is very harsh punishment and there is a whole vigilante culture that actually has members try to intimidate these lawbreakers. As far the 18 year old kid is concerned he is the one that get's screwed. It is a very good idea to know the law and consider the consequences, as you say Mr. Rollo.
The poor ******* can't even join The French Foreign Legion where he could renounce his citizenship, put in 5 years and name himself anything he wants as a French Citizen. However they do background checks and don't admit convicted felons.
Nothing that I can think of short of this will allow you to lose the stigma you will carry around for the rest of your miserable life.


Submit to a preliminary background check. Although the Legion has a reputation for taking all who enlist, felons will not be permitted to join and will be turned away at this point
How to Join the French Foreign Legion | eHow.com (http://www.ehow.com/how_2050232_join-french-foreign-legion.html#ixzz1t3v1rsPk)

[Rudy Tamasz]

As described, this does sound a harsh verdict. Appropriate to a 30-year old adult who should know better. But the 17-18 year old presumably knew what the law is - at that age we certainly did even if we only fantasised about it.

Is the answer is to have sentencing guidelines for judges. Not published for public consumption, but available to judges, and possibly to legal counsel (as they'll find out anyway), on a confidential basis.

How to police it is difficult. Prosecutors will appeal against an excessively light sentence and they should (in an ideal world) also appeal against excessively heavy ones but they won't. The private individual often can't afford the legal costs for an appeal. So should the committee setting the guidelines be charged with making an appeal in this sort of case. As part of their scrutiny they should advise/ admonish judges for excessively heavy and excessively light sentences.

A tricky issue.

This is the Anglo-Saxon legal approach based on common law where each case is treated individually. The rest of the world and Louisiana, too has a legal system based on the Roman law where each case is treated on the same grounds with all others. I.e. a criminal code would stipulate that such and such crime punishable by 5 to 7 years of imprisonment. This is as wide a room for manoever as any judge has. I.e. an 18 year old guy who had romantic sex with his 15 year old girlfriend gets about the same treatment as a 60 year old pedophile who screwed a 10 year old girl. I'm mot saying it's good or bad, but that's the way it is. Of course, a lot depends on whether the injured side wants to press the charges.

[Tazio]

Oh it happens often enough. a fired had a girlfriend who was late 15, he was late 17, no problems...within a week of turning 18 he was arrested and charged and convicted of rape of a minor since he was (gasp!!!!)"three years older".....5 years in Oregon Prison....Happens when a prosecutor wants to mollify some Bible thumping hypocrites...
This was maybe 8 years ago... Life is rough as a convicted felon and sex offender, nobody will hire him...
I got the lowdown from a family member that was a deputy DA for the County of San Diego, and is now a capitol felony defense attorney. She told me that currently in California; statutory rape charges are only brought, and prosecuted if the adult is at least 36 months older than the minor.

I'm mot saying it's good or bad, but that's the way it is. Of course, a lot depends on whether the injured side wants to press the charges.
You have a great command of the English Language, and you speak like someone who has some legal background. I find your contributions for the most part very enlightening. I'm not sure if you mentioned the desire of the victim to "press charges" as a nuance of the case, because the victim doesn't want to see her adult partner get in deep sh!t, but all she can do is try to convolute the case, and testify for the defense with a denial of the events. Statutory rape just like any assault in California does not require the victim to press charges. If the State has enough evidence to prosecute they will. That is the meaning of statutory rape. The State will prosecute because they believe they can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the adult broke this law, or statute. In most cases it is a parent that reports the adult, and then the burden of proof is in the hands of the prosecution. If they feel they have enough evidence to prosecute they will.

[Roamy]

The world is in total disarray - our country is in total disarray. Corruption with government officials is rampant and out of control worldwide. People seem to be content to do nothing about it. Oh but wait look at what our country is doing !!



New Secret Service scandal centers on strippers, prostitutes in El Salvador... (http://www.kirotv.com/news/news/el-salvador-40-strippers-obamas-secret-service-tea/nMhxJ/)

Yes here we are again - attacking another country over a piece of ass

[ioan]

This is a classic issue for debate in philosophy. How many grains does it take to have a pile?


4

[Rudy Tamasz]

You have a great command of the English Language, and you speak like someone who has some legal background. I find your contributions for the most part very enlightening. I'm not sure if you mentioned the desire of the victim to "press charges" as a nuance of the case, because the victim doesn't want to see her adult partner get in deep sh!t, but all she can do is try to convolute the case, and testify for the defense with a denial of the events. Statutory rape just like any assault in California does not require the victim to press charges. If the State has enough evidence to prosecute they will. That is the meaning of statutory rape. The State will prosecute because they believe they can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the adult broke this law, or statute. In most cases it is a parent that reports the adult, and then the burden of proof is in the hands of the prosecution. If they feel they have enough evidence to prosecute they will.

I appreciate your high opinion of my language ability but my knowledge of legal matters is pretty superficial. That's why my wording was confusing. Statutory rape is statutory rape and state will proceed with prosecution if they believe they have a solid case. What I meant was that without cooperation from the injured side, chances of the prosecution winning the case are slim. Forensics don't mean much if the alleged victim doesn't want to testify. Therefore, the prosecution might opt to drop the case or not start it at all.

[Rudy Tamasz]

4

This morning I had four candies on my desk. I can't believe I made such a quick work of a pile of candies.

[fandango]

There are one or two streets in Barcelona that I will simply avoid at all times. Like market day. It's impossible for a man to walk on those streets, day or night, because of the number of prostitutes, and they're not just slinking in the shadows making come here gestures. You get mobbed, and it's not at all pleasant. First thing is hold onto your wallet, then keep everything else to yourself and get the hell out of there. Sad, really...

[ioan]

This morning I had four candies on my desk. I can't believe I made such a quick work of a pile of candies.

Watch you waist. Better go back to grains instead of candies.

[Tazio]

dp.

[Tazio]

I appreciate your high opinion of my language ability but my knowledge of legal matters is pretty superficial. That's why my wording was confusing. Statutory rape is statutory rape and state will proceed with prosecution if they believe they have a solid case. What I meant was that without cooperation from the injured side, chances of the prosecution winning the case are slim. Forensics don't mean much if the alleged victim doesn't want to testify. Therefore, the prosecution might opt to drop the case or not start it at all.

I guite agree and it is not a comon leagle practice anywhere only a very well to do pererson would persue something like this. Aslo proof probably is in
the woman That has the baby, and dude is .999999099 sure he in a heap'o'$h*t :mark: :uhoh:

[Roamy]

There are one or two streets in Barcelona that I will simply avoid at all times. Like market day. It's impossible for a man to walk on those streets, day or night, because of the number of prostitutes, and they're not just slinking in the shadows making come here gestures. You get mobbed, and it's not at all pleasant. First thing is hold onto your wallet, then keep everything else to yourself and get the hell out of there. Sad, really...

oooooooh send a google map please

[fandango]

oooooooh send a google map please

Ha-ha, you're getting predictable. As soon as I posted I thought someone will have that wisecrack, and I wondered (for just a very short time) who it would be...

[Roamy]

Ha-ha, you're getting predictable. As soon as I posted I thought someone will have that wisecrack, and I wondered (for just a very short time) who it would be...

Ya and I am getting instructions from Race about how and where to in Cartagena :)

[race aficionado]

Ya and I am getting instructions from Race about how and where to in Cartagena :)

fousto - I thought they knew you by name in Cartagena. :bandit:

Beautiful city by the beach surrounded by walls built by the spaniards to protect from pirate attacks - a beautiful "old city" section - a lot of partying - and any type of sexual favor needed will be supplied for a price.

A lot of tourists go there precisely for that.

[Jag_Warrior]

2. Parents should be able to consent for the minor.

In many/most states, they can. Parents in my state and others can consent to a minor child marrying or having relationships with adults. When I was in high school, one of the male teachers married a female student who was 16. He sought her parents' permission, received it, the courts declared her an emancipated minor and they lived unhappily ever after.

Where people typically get into trouble is when the law allows for an age gap (16 year old girl and a 19 year old guy) but someone who is 30 thinks it should be OK to have a relationship with that same 16 year old. The law is the law. I'm FAR from a puritan. But especially in teacher/student scenarios, as I stated previously, only a defective adult female teacher would be pursuing a relationship with a male (or female) student half her age... no different than a male doing the same thing. Where I see "political correctness" is when people support special rules and privileges based on gender, or whatever. And it's typically a middle aged+ male, who still has fantasies of Mrs. Goodbody, his 10th grade English teacher, who wore a sheer dress to class one day and stood in the sunlight, who thinks these kinds of female adult/male minor relationships are acceptable. Responsible adults learn to control their urges. We have laws (even though some are based on arbitrary ages) for minors because they are not expected to have fully developed those same control mechanisms yet.

I don't have children... probably never will. But I'm VERY keen on education. So if I did have a child (son or daughter), I would not be sending them to school to learn the birds & the bees from some socially challenged 30 year old, who is unable to/incapable of dating someone her own age. Having my son as the class stud or my daughter as the class sl#t would suggest my failure as a parent. But that's just me. With the U.S. now absolutely full of irresponsible young males with STD's and teen moms collecting "baby-daddy MIA" welfare (dreaming of the day when they MIGHT get their GED), clearly my view is not shared by many these days.

[airshifter]

Ya and I am getting instructions from Race about how and where to in Cartagena :)

Don't worry Fousto, I'm working on updating GPS Points of Interest with a special edition for you. Just press the little red light symbol and it will take you to the nearest location. :laugh:

[ioan]

In many/most states, they can. Parents in my state and others can consent to a minor child marrying or having relationships with adults. When I was in high school, one of the male teachers married a female student who was 16. He sought her parents' permission, received it, the courts declared her an emancipated minor and they lived unhappily ever after.

Where people typically get into trouble is when the law allows for an age gap (16 year old girl and a 19 year old guy) but someone who is 30 thinks it should be OK to have a relationship with that same 16 year old. The law is the law. I'm FAR from a puritan. But especially in teacher/student scenarios, as I stated previously, only a defective adult female teacher would be pursuing a relationship with a male (or female) student half her age... no different than a male doing the same thing. Where I see "political correctness" is when people support special rules and privileges based on gender, or whatever. And it's typically a middle aged+ male, who still has fantasies of Mrs. Goodbody, his 10th grade English teacher, who wore a sheer dress to class one day and stood in the sunlight, who thinks these kinds of female adult/male minor relationships are acceptable. Responsible adults learn to control their urges. We have laws (even though some are based on arbitrary ages) for minors because they are not expected to have fully developed those same control mechanisms yet.

I don't have children... probably never will. But I'm VERY keen on education. So if I did have a child (son or daughter), I would not be sending them to school to learn the birds & the bees from some socially challenged 30 year old, who is unable to/incapable of dating someone her own age. Having my son as the class stud or my daughter as the class sl#t would suggest my failure as a parent. But that's just me. With the U.S. now absolutely full of irresponsible young males with STD's and teen moms collecting "baby-daddy MIA" welfare (dreaming of the day when they MIGHT get their GED), clearly my view is not shared by many these days.

You might not be a puritan but you're posting like one.

If someone over 30 has consented sexual relationship with someone aged 16, 17, 18 etc it's their bloody business and there is no age limiting the sexual attraction that two human beings can feel.
I'm quite sure the student mentioned earlier in this thread was more than happy to have his teacher blow him and then he went and made it all public to reap the admiration of his colleagues without thinking that he might have her serve prison for this.

If you'll have a son or a daughter who want to get laid with someone older they will do it no matter what you might think and do about it. It's how it works with adolescents and no one found a cure to it yet.

[BDunnell]

With the U.S. now absolutely full of irresponsible young males with STD's and teen moms collecting "baby-daddy MIA" welfare (dreaming of the day when they MIGHT get their GED), clearly my view is not shared by many these days.

'Absolutely full'? A slight exaggeration, perhaps?

[BDunnell]

If you'll have a son or a daughter who want to get laid with someone older they will do it no matter what you might think and do about it. It's how it works with adolescents and no one found a cure to it yet.

Exactly. This is not to say that it's a wise thing to do, on the part of either party, but it is unavoidable that such instances will occur. We should in society restrict illegality, no matter what the subject, to areas in which rendering something illegal will actually make a difference to behaviour. This, like certain drugs, is not such a case.

[Roamy]

Don't worry Fousto, I'm working on updating GPS Points of Interest with a special edition for you. Just press the little red light symbol and it will take you to the nearest location. :laugh:

perfect - lets do a iPhone app and call it "Red Light"

[airshifter]

perfect - lets do a iPhone app and call it "Red Light"

I'll let you beta test for me. Once it goes public you can come visit on the yacht at Monaco and we can discuss future release updates and changes. :)

[Rudy Tamasz]

With the U.S. now absolutely full of irresponsible young males with STD's

This situation has been in place for quite a while. Ever heard "Maggie May" by Rod Stewart?

[Jag_Warrior]

You might not be a puritan but you're posting like one.

If someone over 30 has consented sexual relationship with someone aged 16, 17, 18 etc it's their bloody business and there is no age limiting the sexual attraction that two human beings can feel. (Jag_Warrior comment: Seriously?!!! http://www.motorsportforums.com/images/smilies/eek.gif )

I'm quite sure the student mentioned earlier in this thread was more than happy to have his teacher blow him and then he went and made it all public to reap the admiration of his colleagues without thinking that he might have her serve prison for this.

If you'll have a son or a daughter who want to get laid with someone older they will do it no matter what you might think and do about it. It's how it works with adolescents and no one found a cure to it yet.

Sorry if my objection to adult/child sexual relations seems puritanical to you. But it is what it is. Maybe it's a cultural thing. I don't know. But here in the U.S. (outside of certain fundamentalist religious cults), you probably won't find too many people who find such relationships acceptable - especially those involving teachers. And say, why did you stop at 16? Why not 12 or 13, or even 11 - or is that what you meant by "no age limit"? I personally find that rather disturbing. As you seem to be defining "consent" here, anyone who can speak can say "yes" or "no", correct? So as long as the minor is physically capable, why not let that be the deciding factor? So a 40 year old man and a 14 year old girl... Let Love Rule (good Lenny Kravitz tune, BTW), you'd say? No, the primal desires of either party aside, that just doesn't fly with me.

To further cement my puritanical stance, I'm also opposed to selling cigarettes to 5 year olds and hard liquor to toddlers - maybe a six pack of beer, but not hard liquor. They shouldn't be drinking hard liquor until they're at least 7, right? They can have their 40 year old boyfriends buy it for them by then. :p




This situation has been in place for quite a while. Ever heard "Maggie May" by Rod Stewart?

Sure have... an oldie but a goodie. But my favorite Rod Stewart & The Faces tune was "Every Picture Tells a Story". Though I'd say the best one for this thread would be "Forever Young" :D



'Absolutely full'? A slight exaggeration, perhaps?

Hmm, maybe a bit hyperbolic in tone, but not really an exaggeration. We actually do have a major and growing problem with STD's among teens here.

Rates of STDs among teens reach epidemic levels (http://host.madison.com/ct/news/local/health_med_fit/article_96d0ee57-e3dc-59d7-a5ec-e5cbc5b71ffc.html)


One in four teenage girls in the U.S. has an STD, according to the Centers for Disease Control. In Wisconsin, the rate of four of the most commonly reported STDs among teens jumped 53 percent between 1997 and 2007.

The U.S. spends an estimated $15.9 billion annually on direct medical care for STDs.

I'm not against two teens or two near teens forming a relationship. But a 30 or 40 year old and a 12-16 year old??? Come on now, guys! It's one thing to hoist the libertarian flag in the interest of a good hypothetical discussion. But I'm beginning to hear this Kinks tune play in my head as I read some of these posts. :eek:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAfxWV4eCiM

[BDunnell]

Sorry if my objection to adult/child sexual relations seems puritanical to you. But it is what it is. Maybe it's a cultural thing. I don't know. But here in the U.S. (outside of certain fundamentalist religious cults), you probably won't find too many people who find such relationships acceptable - especially those involving teachers. And say, why did you stop at 16? Why not 12 or 13, or even 11 - or is that what you meant by "no age limit"? I personally find that rather disturbing. As you seem to be defining "consent" here, anyone who can speak can say "yes" or "no", correct? So as long as the minor is physically capable, why not let that be the deciding factor? So a 40 year old man and a 14 year old girl... Let Love Rule (good Lenny Kravitz tune, BTW), you'd say? No, the primal desires of either party aside, that just doesn't fly with me.

While I much respect your view and can totally understand why you hold it, I can't help but ask — what actual, practical good do the current laws do? As you say, these are primal desires we're talking about, and they can't just be legislated away.

[BDunnell]

I'm not against two teens or two near teens forming a relationship. But a 30 or 40 year old and a 12-16 year old???

Again, you make a very reasonable point. Thankfully, though, social norms and other factors mean that the numbers of such people desiring, let alone entering into, such relationships are few and far between.

[ioan]

Sorry if my objection to adult/child sexual relations seems puritanical to you. But it is what it is. Maybe it's a cultural thing. I don't know. But here in the U.S. (outside of certain fundamentalist religious cults), you probably won't find too many people who find such relationships acceptable - especially those involving teachers. And say, why did you stop at 16? Why not 12 or 13, or even 11 - or is that what you meant by "no age limit"? I personally find that rather disturbing. As you seem to be defining "consent" here, anyone who can speak can say "yes" or "no", correct? So as long as the minor is physically capable, why not let that be the deciding factor? So a 40 year old man and a 14 year old girl... Let Love Rule (good Lenny Kravitz tune, BTW), you'd say? No, the primal desires of either party aside, that just doesn't fly with me.

There is a good reason why I used 16, it is because:

1. 16 year old, unless mentally impaired, can take care of themselves
2. 16 year old people are legally responsible for their own actions, for example they have the right to drive a car which IMHO has a higher responsibility and risk associated with it than having fun with an older person. Over here they even have the right to take part in national and local elections.
3. I remember how it was when I was 16 and I think that if I was judged mature enough to be allowed to work, to pay taxes, to drive a car and to elect politicians then I also have the right to do what I feel right for my sexual satisfaction


As you seem to be defining "consent" here, anyone who can speak can say "yes" or "no", correct? So as long as the minor is physically capable, why not let that be the deciding factor? So a 40 year old man and a 14 year old girl... Let Love Rule (good Lenny Kravitz tune, BTW), you'd say? No, the primal desires of either party aside, that just doesn't fly with me.

Not sure why you keep binging up the 14 year age, I don't remember having them included in my previous posts, for good reasons.

Say why don't we make that minimum age 30? This way the chances for puritans to throw a hissy fit will be reduced by about 40%.

[gadjo_dilo]

I remember how it was when I was 16 and I think that if I was judged mature enough to be allowed to work, to pay taxes, to drive a car and to elect politicians then I also have the right to do what I feel right for my sexual satisfaction


Where were you living when you were 16? In Romania you couldn't drive a car ( I mean on a public road ) or elect politicians before you were 18.

[Jag_Warrior]

While I much respect your view and can totally understand why you hold it, I can't help but ask — what actual, practical good do the current laws do? As you say, these are primal desires we're talking about, and they can't just be legislated away.

True, a primal desire can't be legislated away or limited. No "desire" can be legislated away or limited. It's the action following the desire which the legislation would seek to limit. Most people live within the social norms of their society, and such relationships wouldn't interest them anyway. The target would be those people outside of the norm (male or female) who, for whatever reason, aren't able to form normal relationships with people their own age, and seek out minors/adolescents. As I said, in most states in this country, if the intentions of that adult are sincere (and not just a pleasure game), one can approach the parent(s), and a relationship can legally ensue with a child meeting a certain minimum age, though still a minor. But the fact that these teachers and others typically try to "train" the child to keep a secret says that they know their actions are illegal, if not morally wrong.

[Jag_Warrior]

There is a good reason why I used 16, it is because:

1. 16 year old, unless mentally impaired, can take care of themselves
2. 16 year old people are legally responsible for their own actions, for example they have the right to drive a car which IMHO has a higher responsibility and risk associated with it than having fun with an older person. Over here they even have the right to take part in national and local elections.
3. I remember how it was when I was 16 and I think that if I was judged mature enough to be allowed to work, to pay taxes, to drive a car and to elect politicians then I also have the right to do what I feel right for my sexual satisfaction

You post these items as if they are universal truths, and they are not. They're generalizations and anecdotals. Even here in the U.S., each state has differing laws regarding age of consent. But you also seem to be following puritanical logic here. You've simply chosen the arbitrary age of 16 instead of 18. All you're doing with the above items is arguing for the universal (?) age of consent to be 16. Someone else could do the exact same thing, use the exact same arguments, and have the age as 15. I was driving a vehicle (on my dad's farm) when I was about 10. I made my first business transaction when I was about 11. So why not split the difference and make the age of consent 13? Whatever age is chosen, it is going to be rather arbitrary no matter how you look at it. Different people mature at different rates. So no particular age is going to work for everyone. And to use hyperbolic pejoratives (puritan, pedo, etc.) for ages that don't agree with your view is rather silly, IMO.



Not sure why you keep binging up the 14 year age, I don't remember having them included in my previous posts, for good reasons.

Say why don't we make that minimum age 30? This way the chances for puritans to throw a hissy fit will be reduced by about 40%.

I'm not trying to twist your words or misquote you. But as you posted this, I wasn't entirely sure what you meant... or if you really meant this in the way that it was written. So that I better understand your point, what did you mean by "... there is no age limiting the sexual attraction that two human beings can feel"??? That is why I included other (lower) ages. If there is no age limit (in your view), then "why stop at 16?", is my question.


You might not be a puritan but you're posting like one.

If someone over 30 has consented sexual relationship with someone aged 16, 17, 18 etc it's their bloody business and there is no age limiting the sexual attraction that two human beings can feel.

Again, my view is, whatever age of consent the citizens and lawmakers of a particular state want to choose, arbitrary though it may be, some sort of statutory limit MUST be in place. Otherwise you would have certain types of adults trolling playgrounds (with bags of candy) as they look for "dates". And the socially awkward American female teachers who think that they should be allowed to "date" their minor male students, they are more than free to leave here and go teach in your country. They'll wind up in jail here. And that's not going to change. Sounds like they'll be welcome in your country. Have at 'em! :wave:

[ioan]

You post these items as if they are universal truths, and they are not. They're generalizations and anecdotals. Even here in the U.S., each state has differing laws regarding age of consent. But you also seem to be following puritanical logic here. You've simply chosen the arbitrary age of 16 instead of 18.

There's life outside the US too and in Europe the age of 16 is not anecdotal, it is enforced by law because such things have to be regulated in order to avoid abuse.
Now you are just grasping at straws to defend a view that many of us do not share, and dare I say it is hypocritical as you did admit yourself that you have no children and probably never will.
I think that it would be useless to continue running circles especially as I already made my position clear.

[airshifter]

There's life outside the US too and in Europe the age of 16 is not anecdotal, it is enforced by law because such things have to be regulated in order to avoid abuse.
Now you are just grasping at straws to defend a view that many of us do not share, and dare I say it is hypocritical as you did admit yourself that you have no children and probably never will.
I think that it would be useless to continue running circles especially as I already made my position clear.

A quick search will show that Europe and for that matter much of the world has different ages that are the legal age of consent. Just as with the US they often have exceptions for certain circumstances.

Personally I would think regardless of law that any person more than a few years older than a 16 year old is indeed a sick individual if they think that 16 year old is not easily influenced, and to me it would be a situation of taking advantage of a person most likely not as capable of making "adult" decisions.

We all know that many if not most countries have a variety of flawed laws, yet law seems to be the basis for your view. According to what I found the age of consent in Spain is 13 unless deceit or mental deficit is involved. If you had a 13 year old daughter in Spain and a 30 year old man was attempting to get her in bed do you claim you would be fine with that?

[Malbec]

A quick search will show that Europe and for that matter much of the world has different ages that are the legal age of consent. Just as with the US they often have exceptions for certain circumstances.

Indeed. The age of consent in Europe varies widely and this varies even more once you look at the whole world.

In Britain the age of consent is 16 but for medical treatment doctors can take consent from a much younger age after a precedence case about 20 years ago provided they believe that the minor is capable of processing complex information and making a rational decision. For sex 16 is a hard limit legally but there is considerable freedom for both the Crown Prosecution Service and judges to choose either not to prosecute or to limit the level of punishment for those involved depending on the circumstances. There is a good deal of hypocrisy around this, recently the Home Minister Ken Clarke got a lot of public criticism for stating the obvious, that a guy raping a woman at knife point is not the same as a 17 year old having sex with a 15 year old within a relationship and punishments should be and are proportionate under the current system as it stands. This is still very much a taboo subject politically.

[ioan]

Personally I would think regardless of law that any person more than a few years older than a 16 year old is indeed a sick individual if they think that 16 year old is not easily influenced, and to me it would be a situation of taking advantage of a person most likely not as capable of making "adult" decisions.

There are plenty of people over 30 years old who can be easily influenced, as well as there are people who are 16 years old who know very well what they want. So what should we do? Move the age of consent to 40 or more, and age where most people might have lived enough to understand the world?

Most countries go for 16 years as age of consent and have legal means in place to abrogate that right for people who are deemed not to be able to make a decision themselves (mostly for aged people who lost contact with reality).

IMO people make mistakes all the time, no matter the age, the smart ones will learn from other people's mistakes, the less smart will learn from their own mistakes and the dumb ones will never learn no matter what, it's how it works it always was and it will always be.
Trying to protect people from themselves is stupid and counterproductive in that it will result in people who will never learn from mistakes and even worse will never learn to take responsibility for their actions.
Just my opinion.

[ioan]

There is a good deal of hypocrisy around this, recently the Home Minister Ken Clarke got a lot of public criticism for stating the obvious, that a guy raping a woman at knife point is not the same as a 17 year old having sex with a 15 year old within a relationship and punishments should be and are proportionate under the current system as it stands. This is still very much a taboo subject politically.

It's all related to the education level of the masses.

[Jag_Warrior]

There's life outside the US too and in Europe the age of 16 is not anecdotal, it is enforced by law because such things have to be regulated in order to avoid abuse.
Now you are just grasping at straws to defend a view that many of us do not share, and dare I say it is hypocritical as you did admit yourself that you have no children and probably never will.
I think that it would be useless to continue running circles especially as I already made my position clear.

And the age of consent varies from state to state in the U.S. I've already stated that at least twice, I believe. In one post you suggest that age limits are puritanical, but here you say that 16 as the age of consent "is enforced by law because such things have to be regulated in order to avoid abuse."

The underlined portion of your post represents the point I've been trying to make all along.

Citizens of different nations or states will choose the statutory limits that they feel are appropriate. But in your case, if the age limits they choose and the penalties that they apply don't agree with your view, you seem to want to toss around hyperbolic, pejorative terms like "puritanical" and "hypocrisy". As other posters have pointed out to you, even in Europe, it doesn't appear that 16 is a universally accepted age of consent for all situations. There are places in Europe where prostitution (the actual topic of this thread) is legal or at least decriminalized. So is it legal there to bed a 16 year old prostitute? Can they act in adult films? No, well why the heck not?! Why can't they let the teen hookers make decisions for themselves and make some money?! Why are those people being "puritanical" and "hypocritical" and whatever else? :rolleyes:

I'm sorry, but at least if you were arguing for no age limits I could follow your logic. I wouldn't agree with it, but at least your logic would be more consistent. But your position is either not being explained very well (which I simply asked you to clarify before you got testy) or it is extremely fluid.

You've devoted so much effort and time trying to ensure that you don't agree with me, that you seem to have also lost sight of your own position. Look again at the underlined portion of what you JUST posted and what I posted previously.


Again, my view is, whatever age of consent the citizens and lawmakers of a particular state want to choose, arbitrary though it may be, some sort of statutory limit MUST be in place. Otherwise you would have certain types of adults trolling playgrounds (with bags of candy) as they look for "dates". And the socially awkward American female teachers who think that they should be allowed to "date" their minor male students, they are more than free to leave here and go teach in your country. They'll wind up in jail here.

[ioan]

My point is that as long as there is an agreed (and needed) reference age for people to be responsible for their own lives then there is no use whatsoever to consider outrageous a relationship between a 16 and a 60 year old person. That's all. I hope it is clear.

[schmenke]

My point is that as long as there is an agreed (and needed) reference age for people to be responsible for their own lives then there is no use whatsoever to consider outrageous a relationship between a 16 and a 60 year old person. That's all. I hope it is clear.

Yes there is.

“Outrageousness” is a subjective view so laws are not the mechanism to pass judgement on such a scenario.
Although it may be legal, it certainly can be viewed as outrageous by some individuals.

[Roamy]

A quick search will show that Europe and for that matter much of the world has different ages that are the legal age of consent. Just as with the US they often have exceptions for certain circumstances.

Personally I would think regardless of law that any person more than a few years older than a 16 year old is indeed a sick individual if they think that 16 year old is not easily influenced, and to me it would be a situation of taking advantage of a person most likely not as capable of making "adult" decisions.

We all know that many if not most countries have a variety of flawed laws, yet law seems to be the basis for your view. According to what I found the age of consent in Spain is 13 unless deceit or mental deficit is involved. If you had a 13 year old daughter in Spain and a 30 year old man was attempting to get her in bed do you claim you would be fine with that?

Ole - I am buying a ticket right now :) Yes airshifter if a 20 yr old even touched my 13 yr old daughter it would be instant sterilization for him via of Dr Magnum. However if a 20 yr old hottie did my 13 yr old son - I may see if I could get a little too.

[Jag_Warrior]

Ole - I am buying a ticket right now :) Yes airshifter if a 20 yr old even touched my 13 yr old daughter it would be instant sterilization for him via of Dr Magnum. However if a 20 yr old hottie did my 13 yr old son - I may see if I could get a little too.

What if the person after your daughter was this 20 year old?
http://img23.imagevenue.com/loc339/th_157203952_Selena_Gomez_l_ve_selena_gomez_801644 6_1280_1024_122_339lo.jpg (http://img23.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=157203952_Selena_Gomez_l_ve_selena_g omez_8016446_1280_1024_122_339lo.jpg)

And the person after your son was this "hottie"?
http://img31.imagevenue.com/loc158/th_615713054_Justin_Bieber_justin_bieber_9776772_7 04_613_122_158lo.jpg (http://img31.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=615713054_Justin_Bieber_justin_biebe r_9776772_704_613_122_158lo.jpg)

Hmm, I think this was what Alan Greenspan used to refer to as a conundrum. But hey, maybe Justin will indeed give you "a little" too. Oh, what a tangled web we weave... :D

[airshifter]

Though obviously a tongue in cheek post by Jag, I was surprised when I looked up the age of consent laws about a point that he is joking about.

In several places the age of consent is higher in a homosexual relationship. I found this very odd, but at the same time it seems to be a more socially complex issue than a hetero relationship, even today in 2012. So Roamy might not want to push his luck with Justin... he might still legally be off limits. :)

[BDunnell]

In several places the age of consent is higher in a homosexual relationship. I found this very odd, but at the same time it seems to be a more socially complex issue than a hetero relationship, even today in 2012.

That it may be, but the views of those who seek to perpetuate the difference should simply be ignored. To hell with them.

[gadjo_dilo]

Sorry guys but I think it's time to return to the main issue of this thread which is prostitution. Meaning sex on money ( or other material interests ).

At this moment I'm probably the only woman who attends this thread. And I confess I'm disappointed by what I read here.

[ioan]

Looks to me that people around here have more problem with consented sexual relationships than they have with prostitution.

[airshifter]

Sorry guys but I think it's time to return to the main issue of this thread which is prostitution. Meaning sex on money ( or other material interests ).

At this moment I'm probably the only woman who attends this thread. And I confess I'm disappointed by what I read here.

I agree and am as guilty as anyone in the thread drifting off topic.

Being that you are probably the only female watching the thread what are your views?

Personally in my travels I've found that prostitution exists just about everywhere. In some places in the seedier corners of the seedy area of town, in other places right out in the open. I have to think that allowing it to be legal with some type of regulation is the safer alternative, as the prostitutes wouldn't have to "hide" from the police and would have more protection, and medical testing would keep them and customers safer from STDs and the like. But on the flip side I realize that like any business, many would avoid the taxes and legal requirements and there would still be a black market illegal side of the trade.

It was also interesting in my travels the varied levels of acceptance of the trade. In Germany is was not really frowned upon, and in Portugal it was almost accepted that any woman could be approached and would not take offence even if not a working girl, and the price might change their mind.

[Jag_Warrior]

Sorry guys but I think it's time to return to the main issue of this thread which is prostitution. Meaning sex on money ( or other material interests ).

At this moment I'm probably the only woman who attends this thread. And I confess I'm disappointed by what I read here.

As I think I mentioned early on, I have no issue with (adult) prostitution. Though I understand why some people do. But in general, I just don't feel that a government should impose its will on what consenting adults do with one another, or the arrangements they make with one another. IMO, a girl who marries a man ONLY for his money is engaging in a form of legal and socially acceptable prostitution, much the same as the girl who engages in sex acts with a "sugar daddy". The only difference between the two is the presence of a marriage certificate.


Looks to me that people around here have more problem with consented sexual relationships than they have with prostitution.

The only issue some (myself, anyway) have with "consented sexual relationships" is when one of the parties in question is below the statutory age of consent. The only thing you've really done is argue that the age of consent should be 16, and claim that it's "puritanical" or "hypocritical" to have views that differ from your view. The only real hypocrisy that I've seen in this thread is from people who believe that there should be one set of rules/laws for women and another for men. And as was clearly (or sarcastically) pointed out, that may create some sticky, unexpected issues for them.

Whether it's for sex, or other acts requiring consent, different nations, states and/or societies may decide what the age of consent is or should be. And there may be exceptions. For instance:

The legal age of basic consent in Nevada is 16 years of age. However it should be noted that in 1997 the State of Nevada passed a law that says having sex with a minor is illegal if the adult is in a command or authoritative position over the minor, such as a teacher, coach, employer, foster parent, and so on. In that case the minimum age of consent would be 18 years of age.

Also, prostitution is legal in some parts of Nevada, but only in brothels. However, the age of consent for prostitutes is 18 in Nevada. And throughout the United States, the minimum legal age for participating in pornography is 18.

[Roamy]

I was scanning the channels the other day and came across a ultimate fighting championship match. This guy was bashing the other one face in with punches and elbows. Was pretty sickening to even watch. This is legal and a piece of ass is illegal - my god what have we become?

[gadjo_dilo]

As I think I mentioned early on, I have no issue with (adult) prostitution. Though I understand why some people do. But in general, I just don't feel that a government should impose its will on what consenting adults do with one another, or the arrangements they make with one another. IMO, a girl who marries a man ONLY for his money is engaging in a form of legal and socially acceptable prostitution, much the same as the girl who engages in sex acts with a "sugar daddy". The only difference between the two is the presence of a marriage certificate.

On brief:
1. First of all there are also men who marries women for money but what opinions can I expect in a men’s world? At the end of the day prostitution is not only a feminine privilege. There are also masculine „cocottes”.
2. Even in marriages that were based on love and mutual interests at some point may appear misunderstandings. Still the partners continue to live together. Do you think it’s also a sort of socially acceptable prostitution?
3. I’m afraid you see marriage as a legal cadre to perform sexual acts. Personally I think it deals with a lot more other things than sexual relationships. Maybe that’s the reason why it requires a lot of thinking before assuming it.
More than that, when you marry someone you are supposed to start a family and to live in common with that person, when you go to the whores it’s like my father used to say „Incaleca si fute/Descaleca si du-te” - can’t translate this because it would lose the saviour of the rhyme. ( But I must apoligize to Ioan, for using such a rude expression. Otherwise, in real life I'm a very polite person ).

[Rudy Tamasz]

I was scanning the channels the other day and came across a ultimate fighting championship match. This guy was bashing the other one face in with punches and elbows. Was pretty sickening to even watch. This is legal and a piece of ass is illegal - my god what have we become?

That's the mainstream American culture. Puritan on anything sex related, very accepting on violence.

[gadjo_dilo]

Being that you are probably the only female watching the thread what are your views?


I think the question was if it’s legal or illegal. Legal or illegal it’s immoral. It alwavs existed, still exists and will exist forever. But I think it’s wrong to legalise an immoral act.

You guys, talked a lot about the age of consent - which is not neccessarily related to prostitution. But what about the girls ( not neccessarily under 18) , most of them from eastern Europe, who are victims of the human traffic networks ?


P.S. Fatality! I posted this 10 minutes ago and I couldn't view it. Had to type it again......

[BDunnell]

I think the question was if it’s legal or illegal. Legal or illegal it’s immoral. It alwavs existed, still exists and will exist forever. But I think it’s wrong to legalise an immoral act.

But views on what is immoral and what is not vary so wildly that this cannot be taken as a general position.

[gadjo_dilo]

You're right. Maybe I make the mistake to associate morality with dignity......

[gadjo_dilo]

I'm trying an exercise of imagination: supposing prostitution will be legalised in my country and the profession of "whore" will be accepted by society....
One day I'll lose my job and I go to the Agency of unemployed workers to find out the only vacant jobs are in a brothel.....

[nigelred5]

I think the question was if it’s legal or illegal. Legal or illegal it’s immoral. It alwavs existed, still exists and will exist forever. But I think it’s wrong to legalise an immoral act.

You guys, talked a lot about the age of consent - which is not neccessarily related to prostitution. But what about the girls ( not neccessarily under 18) , most of them from eastern Europe, who are victims of the human traffic networks ?


P.S. Fatality! I posted this 10 minutes ago and I couldn't view it. Had to type it again......

Consentual sex, say with an individual someone meets in a bar over a few drinks is fine, not puritanic, etc. but sex for money is immoral...? Not sure I understand that logic. Who defines morality? Legalizing and regulating prostitution, which you freely admit has essentially always existed and will never go away, seems for more logical than attempting to legislate morality. I have ZERO problem with regulating it from a public health aspect to prevent abuse and disease, and establishing a minimum age. We have established minimum ages for employment in all employment for jsut that purpose. If someone is of a culturally and socially agreed upon age to consent to sex, what business is it of the government to decide if they choose to perform sex acts for money if they comply with health standards?

Human trafficing exists in far more industries than just prostitution. Regulate prostitution, and you make it far easier to identify things like human trafficing.

[gadjo_dilo]

Consentual sex, say with an individual someone meets in a bar over a few drinks is fine, not puritanic, etc. but sex for money is immoral...? Not sure I understand that logic..
In the first situation it might be ( at least ) a physical attraction.
Although, consentual sex, say with an individual someone meets in a bar over a few drinks could be also immoral if the "someone" is married or seriously involved in a relationship. :laugh:

On the other hand a "profesional" prostitute has no right to choose. The client is paying and she has to accept the "advances" of any man no matter how he looks, smells, behaves, etc. Clients see a whore like a sexual object, they pay and pretend. And she has to accept the fantasies, sometimes the brutality. Not to mention that she's obliged to have more clients/night.
I know it's her body that "perform" the "activity", but this kind of activity definitely let marks in their souls.
Maybe you're right, what business is it of the government to decide if they choose to perform sex acts for money if they comply with health standards? But as far as I'm concerned I want my government to guarantee dignity to all its citizens.

[Jag_Warrior]

On brief:
1. First of all there are also men who marries women for money but what opinions can I expect in a men’s world? At the end of the day prostitution is not only a feminine privilege. There are also masculine „cocottes”.

My comments were not meant to be exclusive to one gender or the other. My feelings on the matter apply to both sexes.


2. Even in marriages that were based on love and mutual interests at some point may appear misunderstandings. Still the partners continue to live together. Do you think it’s also a sort of socially acceptable prostitution?

Only if the sole or primary reason they stay together has to do with finances. If one is exchanging favors for the benefit of the other's money, then yes, I see that as a form of prostitution.


3. I’m afraid you see marriage as a legal cadre to perform sexual acts. Personally I think it deals with a lot more other things than sexual relationships. Maybe that’s the reason why it requires a lot of thinking before assuming it.

No, this is not correct. That is not how I see marriage at all. The physical relationship is simply the one element of a marriage that is being discussed here. I'm sure that it would be possible for a prostitute and her(his?) client to fall in love and form a non-financially based relationship. But again, that is outside the scope of what we're talking about here... or so I thought.


More than that, when you marry someone you are supposed to start a family and to live in common with that person, when you go to the whores it’s like my father used to say „Incaleca si fute/Descaleca si du-te” - can’t translate this because it would lose the saviour of the rhyme. ( But I must apoligize to Ioan, for using such a rude expression. Otherwise, in real life I'm a very polite person ).

Ideally, yes. I agree with that.


I think the question was if it’s legal or illegal. Legal or illegal it’s immoral. It alwavs existed, still exists and will exist forever. But I think it’s wrong to legalise an immoral act.

Morality is subjective and relative. What is immoral (or moral) to one may not be immoral (or moral) to another. We could probably all agree that murder is immoral and wrong. But when trying to put a fine point on what constitutes murder (apart from the very obvious), we might not all agree. During war, is it moral or immoral, murder or an act of war, if a nation's leader orders a region to be bombed and non-combatants are killed in their beds? As far as prostitution, while I respect your opinion that it is immoral, I do not believe the government (lawmakers) should be legislating what two adults above the age of consent can or cannot do with one another. If I believe it is immoral or wrong, then I should simply not do it. Why should I need a law legislating what other adults can or cannot do? The same applies to pornography, marijuana, alcohol and a great many other things that someone may say is "wrong" or "immoral". If I don't like them, then I should not partake of those things.


You guys, talked a lot about the age of consent - which is not neccessarily related to prostitution. But what about the girls ( not neccessarily under 18) , most of them from eastern Europe, who are victims of the human traffic networks ?

True, age of consent is not necessarily (just) related to prostitution. But in the case of human trafficking, we are talking about people (not just girls, as you pointed out previously) who quite likely have not given consent at all - no matter what their age is. And it often times does involve underage victims. We had a case in North Carolina just a year or so ago, where teenage girls from Mexico (some as young as 14) were being held against their will in a series of houses and used as prostitutes for migrant workers. In the Brighton Beach area of New York there is a large Russian immigrant (some illegal) population. And that area is known as a crime hub for drug smuggling, as well as human trafficking of Eastern European females. On the West Coast, the issue seems to center around Asians (Chinese mostly) and Mexicans.

But again, I see the issue of sex slaves and human trafficking as separate from the general question of prostitution, where we're talking about non-coercive arrangements between adults who are giving consent.

[gadjo_dilo]

Morality is subjective and relative. What is immoral (or moral) to one may not be immoral (or moral) to another. We could probably all agree that murder is immoral and wrong. But when trying to put a fine point on what constitutes murder (apart from the very obvious), we might not all agree. During war, is it moral or immoral, murder or an act of war, if a nation's leader orders a region to be bombed and non-combatants are killed in their beds?


I confess that after reading Vladimir Nabokov's novel "Lolita", understanding why the pervert Humbert Humbert acted like that and that the 12 years old victim was more immoral than the seducer, my sympathy went to the former character. However that can't make pedophilia less immoral.

[gadjo_dilo]

That really is a totally different kettle of fish to adult prostitution though isn't it?

Yes but I was talking about the moral/immoral things in general.

[gadjo_dilo]

So let's also legalise robbery as it's also something that will never be eradicated and is probably as old as prostitution.
And in some conditions it could also have a good function: to reassign wealth in society. :laugh:

[gadjo_dilo]

Robbery may not be something that can be totally eradicated but its also very different to two consenting adults having sex for money is it not? Robbery is taking ones possessions through force and without consent, whereas prostitution is an illegal service in many countries where the product on sale is offered/invited and purchased.

But both robber and prostitute do their "job" for their living.....The robber may say he can't get a job and he does it to support his family.

As for consenting... I also consent to do a lot of things in my life but they make me terribly unhappy and I feel deeply humiliated.

[Malbec]

But both robber and prostitute do their "job" for their living.....The robber may say he can't get a job and he does it to support his family.

As for consenting... I also consent to do a lot of things in my life but they make me terribly unhappy and I feel deeply humiliated.

The robber's victim does not give their consent. Both parties in the case of prostitution give consent. This is the key issue.

I totally agree that prostitution is dehumanising and demeaning but it is also a choice. The establishment of a welfare system across Europe that allows people of both sexes to live without a job should have demolished prostitution if people only did it to survive but it hasn't.

I think its unrealistic to prohibit consensual behaviour simply on the basis that it can make an individual unhappy or humiliated. Perhaps we should make it illegal for people to lose jobs on that basis?

[BDunnell]

But as far as I'm concerned I want my government to guarantee dignity to all its citizens.

Again, there is no single definition of 'dignity'.

[gadjo_dilo]

Perhaps we should make it illegal for people to lose jobs on that basis?

The only thing I'm sure of is that I may lose my job if I'll continue to write here. :laugh:
And despite a spanish armada of about 30000 people ready to take by assault my city tonight, I'm not in the position to go out "to produce ". :laugh:

[gadjo_dilo]

Again, there is no single definition of 'dignity'.

Again, I'm sorry. I can't concentrate anymore. Too much noise....

[BDunnell]

Again, I'm sorry. I can't concentrate anymore. Too much noise....

Oh, don't apologise. You make very valid points — it's just that I don't entirely agree with them.

[BDunnell]

I feel the same as you. All very sensible debate :) .

Absolutely.

[ioan]

More than that, when you marry someone you are supposed to start a family and to live in common with that person, when you go to the whores it’s like my father used to say „Incaleca si fute/Descaleca si du-te” - can’t translate this because it would lose the saviour of the rhyme. ( But I must apoligize to Ioan, for using such a rude expression. Otherwise, in real life I'm a very polite person ).

Don't worry, I think that is a great saying! Plus I am a very liberal person. :D

[ioan]

I'm trying an exercise of imagination: supposing prostitution will be legalised in my country and the profession of "whore" will be accepted by society....
One day I'll lose my job and I go to the Agency of unemployed workers to find out the only vacant jobs are in a brothel.....

You're making a mistake by comparing prostitution with other jobs. Prostitution means selling your body, the other jobs mean selling your soul! ;)

[BDunnell]

You're making a mistake by comparing prostitution with other jobs. Prostitution means selling your body, the other jobs mean selling your soul! ;)

Like it.

[ioan]

Thanks. I hope this will brighten also Gadjo's day! :)

[gadjo_dilo]

Thanks. I hope this will brighten also Gadjo's day! :)

Thanks for the beautiful intentions but unfortunately NOTHING can brighten my days.
I'm a lost case.

[gadjo_dilo]

You're not in a brothel now are you? They can be noisy I am told. :D

It was supposed to be a joke but ironically it has a grain of truth.
They say that politics is a whore. The terrible noise was coming from the plaza in front of the Parliament and even myself was in a governmental building. :laugh:

[gadjo_dilo]

I know that my sick curiosity would kill me someday but I can’t stop it....
I see that all of you don’t consider prostitution as immoral. So how many of you admit they used to go to ”the girls” ? And if you did , had you the courage to admit it in front of your wives, girlfriends, friends, family?

I would have started a poll but I don't know how.

[gadjo_dilo]

Again, there is no single definition of 'dignity'.

I can't make a theory of dignity, all I may say it's genuine only when you express it naturally. And it's usually related to unhappiness: in front of death, when you're imprisoned, generally when destiny hits you.
One of my fav personality says that you act with dignity when you serve like a master.

But I have another issue now ( definitely mornings have a weird impact on me :laugh :) : Is dignity politically correct?
But that's already another story....

[gadjo_dilo]

Thankfully I am happy in my marriage and beforehand I was always an outgoing chap who has had everything fullflled. I've never felt the need to visit a brothel. I support legalization simply to keep the industry safer and preferably off our streets where they are in contained buildings.

That's not an excuse. Good guys are always taken ( unfortunately !) but it doesn't mean the usual clients are only te ones with a bad breath or smelly feet. :laugh:

[gadjo_dilo]

I don't bother to look for solutions. It's illegal but tolerated. The city is full of legal erotic parlours that hides ( do they? ) such activities. The papers are full of offers of young ladies in search of fun and protection. Even the TV programme guide paper has the last page full of "meaningful" pics associated with phone numbers. The TV news acts like promotors of a sexual tourism. etc. etc.

[gadjo_dilo]

There's no solution for it. I don't mind if it exists but to cover it under a legal blanket is too much for me.

[gadjo_dilo]

There are solutions to make the industry safer and I think your issue is you think if its legalized, then its in danger of being socially acceptable and I can see that point.

I don't see it like a danger. In my opinion there are some things that even if they're posible or not forbidden they "aren't nice".

I personally don't think it would ever be socially acceptable just like licensed sex shops are still taboo on our high streets.
Really? On my way home I can easily count 4 such establishments


The nature of the business will always be taboo because people in general just aren't comfortable talking about sex.
You should work in my office. :laugh: Not that we share our experiences but our vocabulary is really toxic.

[Jag_Warrior]

Maybe this will help the situation:
Robotic prostitutes could replace human prostitutes by 2050 (http://dailycaller.com/2012/05/03/robotic-prostitutes-could-replace-human-prostitutes-by-2050/)


The thing about prostitutes is that they are mostly illegal here in the United States, they carry diseases and sometimes they just get tuckered out. But by the year 2050, concerns about spending an evening with a lady of the night could be a thing of the past.


Researchers at Victoria University of Wellington in New Zealand wrote in the journal “Futures” that sex robots are not only possible, but could be better than real-life prostitutes.


“Sex robots are absolutely inevitable… in fact they already exist,” Michelle Mars and Ian Yeoman point out.

[Malbec]

There's no solution for it. I don't mind if it exists but to cover it under a legal blanket is too much for me.

Even if covering it with a legal blanket means better protection for the prostitutes, improved medical care, reduced risk of trafficking, underage girls or IV drug abuse and better employment conditions?

Not liking prostitution is not the same as turning a blind eye to the plight of many prostitutes in a profession that is currently illegal and therefore underground and unmonitored.

[gadjo_dilo]

Even if covering it with a legal blanket means better protection for the prostitutes, improved medical care, reduced risk of trafficking, underage girls or IV drug abuse and better employment conditions?

Not liking prostitution is not the same as turning a blind eye to the plight of many prostitutes in a profession that is currently illegal and therefore underground and unmonitored.

Maybe it's a thing I can't really understand. But I'm a bit drunk now and can't comment anymore.

[Roamy]

Oh NO !!! Another movie star turns left and takes the "Hershey Highway" I bet it is real pleasant around the Travolta family today :) Well who will be next to "Rump Up" sean connery. I always thought it was a bit strange for a man to lay there and another man rub his body, especially when so many beautiful women are available.

[ioan]

I know that my sick curiosity would kill me someday but I can’t stop it....
I see that all of you don’t consider prostitution as immoral. So how many of you admit they used to go to ”the girls” ? And if you did , had you the courage to admit it in front of your wives, girlfriends, friends, family?

I would have started a poll but I don't know how.

The closest I've got to it was visiting stripper clubs when they first appeared in Romania. Never paid for sex though.

[ioan]

There's no solution for it. I don't mind if it exists but to cover it under a legal blanket is too much for me.

I think this is the result of the misinformation that has been fed to people in Romania, mixed with the 'high' moral grounds inoculated by the ultra conservative ortodox church whom are against legalization of prostitution, for whatever obscure reasons. Rather sad.

[ioan]

You should work in my office. :laugh: Not that we share our experiences but our vocabulary is really toxic.

Which proves henners' point, you do not talk sex, you just talk dirty.
Back in the day when I was in France we met new female students from Romania every year and we were rather surprised that usually out of 10 girls only one of them would be able to talk about sex, the rest of them consider it to be highly offensive. Most of them did however change within a year or so. Which points towards the Romanian society being the root of the issue.

[ioan]

Maybe it's a thing I can't really understand. But I'm a bit drunk now and can't comment anymore.

You're drunk at 14:57?! That's really a surprise.
Do you think getting drunk so early in the day is acceptable?! ;)

[gadjo_dilo]

You're drunk at 14:57?! That's really a surprise.
Do you think getting drunk so early in the day is acceptable?! ;)

Big deal! I saw english fans of different teams who were already drunk at 9 in the morning.....
However I have a good excuse. I was at work and in front of the building it was organized a fan zone for Athletic Bilbao. As we’re famous for our hospitability ( wonder why ) some barbecues were installed in Constitution Plaza and the smell coming through the window got me crazy. It was imposible to work either as the guys were entertained with different types of music which was played too loud. So we decided to go out and buy some “mici” – which BTW were excellent, only 2,5 lei each but double sized and with a very good meat – as the stuff for export, imagine the scandal if the spaniards would have caught an alimentary toxinfection :laugh:
However the beer was rather expensive – 8 lei/plastic glass of 400 ml and the benches were wet due to a bloody rain. So we decided to eat them in our office but as “micii” requires a drink my boss offered us a bottle of good wine ( Cabernet Sauvignon of Samburesti –which I warmly recommend you ). Added to the exhaustion of the day work, the magnetism ( if you know what I mean ) started to work. However as I underlined I was just a bit drunk, I could continue my work and get home keeping the right line ( despite different groups of fans forcing a slalom ).
Fair to say that at the match I also drank 3 summer spritzes and a small glass of homemade tuica ( also ate 2 bars of chocolate which is total madness ) but managed to keep myself sober. That’s what i call good training.

[gadjo_dilo]

Which proves henners' point, you do not talk sex, you just talk dirty.
Back in the day when I was in France we met new female students from Romania every year and we were rather surprised that usually out of 10 girls only one of them would be able to talk about sex, the rest of them consider it to be highly offensive. Most of them did however change within a year or so. Which points towards the Romanian society being the root of the issue.

Nah... It's the entourage that makes the difference.

[gadjo_dilo]

The closest I've got to it was visiting stripper clubs when they first appeared in Romania. Never paid for sex though.

May I ask you why?

[Big Ben]

Even if covering it with a legal blanket means better protection for the prostitutes, improved medical care, reduced risk of trafficking, underage girls or IV drug abuse and better employment conditions?

Not liking prostitution is not the same as turning a blind eye to the plight of many prostitutes in a profession that is currently illegal and therefore underground and unmonitored.

I think you forget the kind of people who get involved in this 'business'. If they don't mind laws banning prostitution they will care even less about laws that make them go through regular medical check-ups or pay taxes. Legalizing prostitution we'll have little effect on those dealing with the problems listed by you because they don't care about laws, society and all the other things that stand between them and easy money. And you're stretching maybe too much the meaning of the word profession (a vocation requiring knowledge of some department of learning or science? what's next, professional masturbator?)

[Big Ben]

May I ask you why?

Do you really have too? He's so awesome he doesn't have too. That's the very least you should know about Ioan by now.

[gadjo_dilo]

Do you really have too? He's so awesome he doesn't have too. That's the very least you should know about Ioan by now.

Yes, I'm REALLY interested in his answer.
Because I want to know WHO are the guys that really have to go to "the girls".

[Malbec]

I think you forget the kind of people who get involved in this 'business'. If they don't mind laws banning prostitution they will care even less about laws that make them go through regular medical check-ups or pay taxes. Legalizing prostitution we'll have little effect on those dealing with the problems listed by you because they don't care about laws, society and all the other things that stand between them and easy money. And you're stretching maybe too much the meaning of the word profession (a vocation requiring knowledge of some department of learning or science? what's next, professional masturbator?)

I'm not forgetting the type of person involved in the business at all. I've had to pick up the consequences of their 'industry' too many times for me to forget, and I've met plenty of them as a consequence.

You talk as if prostitutes are criminal in the same sense as burglars and that legalising the profession is akin to legalising a thieves guild. It isn't. Your description of the girls and some boys involved indicates you know little about them. Few people go into prostitution because they want to (ever heard a little girl say I want to be a whore when I grow up?) but because social circumstance including drug addiction forces them. Some do it against their will, either trafficked and forced into sexual slavery or by their partners/pimps who use them as a source of income. There are a few, usually at the top end of the industry who do it purely through choice and who earn quite a good income, but they are numerically by far the minority.

If you look at the proposals set forward by countries such as Holland and the Islamic Republic of Iran for legalising prostitution, they involved the establishment of brothels where the girls would be licensed, their physical security established and where they receive free and regular medical care. And yes, their income would be taxed (as if pimps don't extract a fee as it is now right?). I think there is little wrong with that kind of model.

Essentially we are talking the same logic as legalising drugs. Bring the industry above board and regulate it, reduce profitability massively for the criminal element (expelling them) and make it far far easier for the relevant authorities and charitable groups to identify those in trouble and provide them with the help they need.

BTW I use the term profession because of the old saying, that prostitution is the world's oldest profession and soldiery the second.

[gadjo_dilo]

I must admit I've been to a strip club on 3 or 4 occasions when on stag do's etc. It's not been for any real need because I'm lacking anything at home but its been a lot of fun too. There's something very exciting about a naked girl sat on your lap lol and to be honest its just abit of harmless fantasy.

Really?!!!!!!???!!!
I can't understand the girls who goes to male strippers shows and then scream like crazy.

[BDunnell]

I think you forget the kind of people who get involved in this 'business'. If they don't mind laws banning prostitution they will care even less about laws that make them go through regular medical check-ups or pay taxes. Legalizing prostitution we'll have little effect on those dealing with the problems listed by you because they don't care about laws, society and all the other things that stand between them and easy money. And you're stretching maybe too much the meaning of the word profession (a vocation requiring knowledge of some department of learning or science? what's next, professional masturbator?)

Why have pointless laws on the statute books? Has the fact of prosititution being illegal eradicated it? No. Will it ever do so? No. Therefore, as with certain drugs, a different approach is needed, surely?

[gadjo_dilo]

I can assure you I didn't scream like crazy when I visited a strip club lol. I'm guessing I'm a little more open minded than yourself and that might well be a cultural thing I don't know. I just think as humans we all have sexual erges and abit of harmless exhibitionism does no real harm. I suppose you'd frown upon people looking at pornographic material in the privacy of ones own home? I think we all have impulses by nature, its just certain people take it too far.



Don't want to commit an indiscretion but are you a girl/woman?
I made it clear I hate girls who .....etc.
Girls use to scream on such shows. Men just shut up and sigh.

[Rudy Tamasz]

Even if covering it with a legal blanket means better protection for the prostitutes, improved medical care, reduced risk of trafficking, underage girls or IV drug abuse and better employment conditions?

Not liking prostitution is not the same as turning a blind eye to the plight of many prostitutes in a profession that is currently illegal and therefore underground and unmonitored.

A friend of mine was in Hamburg with a friend of his. That friend's friend was from Southern Europe and quite obsessed with sex. So he went to the red light area and had a choice between legal service at about 100 Euro and illegal service at 30 Euro. Needless to say, he went fore a more cometitive offer.

What I'm saying is that some part of this business will always stay underground no matter how many opportunities they have to be legal.

[Malbec]

A friend of mine was in Hamburg with a friend of his. That friend's friend was from Southern Europe and quite obsessed with sex. So he went to the red light area and had a choice between legal service at about 100 Euro and illegal service at 30 Euro. Needless to say, he went fore a more cometitive offer.

What I'm saying is that some part of this business will always stay underground no matter how many opportunities they have to be legal.

You are no doubt right in saying that there will always be an illegal sub-industry if prostitution is legalised, however surely that is an improvement on what goes on now where the entire industry is illegal?

[Big Ben]

Why have pointless laws on the statute books? Has the fact of prosititution being illegal eradicated it? No. Will it ever do so? No. Therefore, as with certain drugs, a different approach is needed, surely?

Has the fact of murder being illegal eradicated it? No. Will it ever do so? No. Therefore, as with certain drugs, a different approach is needed, surely? Surely?

So if a law against something is good only if it eradicates that thing is there any law we should keep?

[gadjo_dilo]

What I'm saying is that some part of this business will always stay underground no matter how many opportunities they have to be legal.

That's true. I always think about this whenever a promoter of the prostitution law claims it would bring money to the budget.

[BDunnell]

Has the fact of murder being illegal eradicated it? No. Will it ever do so? No. Therefore, as with certain drugs, a different approach is needed, surely? Surely?

So if a law against something is good only if it eradicates that thing is there any law we should keep?

I don't see that as being a valid comparison given the severity of the offences. I might as well turn the question back to you — as far as you are concerned, what is the point of prostitution being illegal?

[Malbec]

Has the fact of murder being illegal eradicated it? No. Will it ever do so? No. Therefore, as with certain drugs, a different approach is needed, surely? Surely?

So if a law against something is good only if it eradicates that thing is there any law we should keep?

How bizarre...

Why is it that people on this thread equate prostitution with murder and theft?

Can you not tell the difference between an act performed between two consenting adults following payment and an act performed WITHOUT consent?

Why didn't the legalisation of strip clubs arouse your anger? A naked woman shaking her arse in your groin for money is perfectly acceptable but bloody hell, if she so much as dares to touch the guy she should be imprisoned dammit!

Excuse me if I don't follow your logic.

{Edit} its also interesting to see that despite several pages of arguments about making prostitution itself legal or illegal noone has suggested making the use of them illegal....

[Big Ben]

I don't see that as being a valid comparison given the severity of the offences. I might as well turn the question back to you — as far as you are concerned, what is the point of prostitution being illegal?

It was not a comparison. I just thought of trying your logic with another offense. You said a law against prostitution shouldn't be kept because it doesn't eradicate it.... IMO that's a little much to ask from a law... any law... and with that I'll make the mistake and answer your question and say that I feel prostitution should be illegal to discourage it.

[Big Ben]

How bizarre...

Why is it that people on this thread equate prostitution with murder and theft?

Can you not tell the difference between an act performed between two consenting adults following payment and an act performed WITHOUT consent?

Why didn't the legalisation of strip clubs arouse your anger? A naked woman shaking her arse in your groin for money is perfectly acceptable but bloody hell, if she so much as dares to touch the guy she should be imprisoned dammit!

Excuse me if I don't follow your logic.

{Edit} its also interesting to see that despite several pages of arguments about making prostitution itself legal or illegal noone has suggested making the use of them illegal....

I excuse you. I've explained what I meant in my previous post. I hope that makes it clearer.

[Big Ben]

I wonder what those in favor of legal prostitution would say when being denied unemployment benefits because there's an opening at the local brothel.

[BDunnell]

It was not a comparison. I just thought of trying your logic with another offense. You said a law against prostitution shouldn't be kept because it doesn't eradicate it.... IMO that's a little much to ask from a law... any law... and with that I'll make the mistake and answer your question and say that I feel prostitution should be illegal to discourage it.

I would have thought that, if you believe in law and order, you would want a law outlawing something to be effective, wouldn't you?

[Big Ben]

BDunnell, I think you got to point where you are arguing just for the sake of arguing... So lets just leave it there

[Malbec]

I feel prostitution should be illegal to discourage it.

So, how well has that worked over the past several thousand years?

And how exactly do you propose to protect vulnerable young women from being pushed into the industry and get exploited and abused if you are against government legislation?

[BDunnell]

BDunnell, I think you got to point where you are arguing just for the sake of arguing... So lets just leave it there

Not at all. I'm arguing because I disagree with your viewpoint — no other reason.

[nigelred5]

I wonder what those in favor of legal prostitution would say when being denied unemployment benefits because there's an opening at the local brothel.

There's always an opening at a brothel.....

[ioan]

May I ask you why?

Because it was fun!

[ioan]

I must admit I've been to a strip club on 3 or 4 occasions when on stag do's etc. It's not been for any real need because I'm lacking anything at home but its been a lot of fun too. There's something very exciting about a naked girl sat on your lap lol and to be honest its just abit of harmless fantasy. I wouldn't visit a brothel because that is very different and I have no interest in cheating on my wife IMO.

Exactly!

[ioan]

Really?!!!!!!???!!!
I can't understand the girls who goes to male strippers shows and then scream like crazy.

I can't understand them either. Maybe because men don't scream like crazy when they visit a strip club?! We have a drink talk and laugh (not very loud) with friends.

[ioan]

Girls use to scream on such shows. Men just shut up and sigh.

How do you know that? Just asking.

[ioan]

How bizarre...

Why is it that people on this thread equate prostitution with murder and theft?

Only some people do that and they live in countries with orthodox religion. Rather self explanatory, especially as I lived in Romania for most of my life and I know how people think over there. In fact most people there think that prostitution is worse than theft.

[ioan]

I wonder what those in favor of legal prostitution would say when being denied unemployment benefits because there's an opening at the local brothel.

You're making the same mistake that gadjo did a couple of days ago.

[ioan]

Thats a bit of a strange statement Ben I must say. A friend of mine is unemployed but there is a job as a Systems Manager at Red Bull Racing available in his home town, that doesn't mean he is right for the job and can be forced to apply for it. Considering the nature of prostitution, I don't think anyone could legally be forced to become a prostitute. Just like presently men and women are not forced to become strippers (perfectly legal employment) because there may be a position available.

Exactly.

[Big Ben]

It worked just fine Malbec. The very fact we are here discussing it the way we do proves it.

[Big Ben]

You caught me there Henners. I didn't know about your friend. If that's how it's for your friend in UK than I'm sure that's how it is for all the unemployed friends arond the world.

[Malbec]

It worked just fine Malbec. The very fact we are here discussing it the way we do proves it.

So here are some of the results of the status quo that you are so damn proud of.

Peter Sutcliffe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Sutcliffe)
Robert Pickton - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Pickton)
Speaking for the Dead - Rhode Island Monthly - May 2009 - Rhode Island (http://www.rimonthly.com/Rhode-Island-Monthly/May-2009/Speaking-for-the-Dead/)
Long Island serial killer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Island_serial_killer)
Ipswich serial murders - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipswich_serial_murders)

So, things are working out just fine are they ben? I can understand your point of view, after all they're all just worthless whores right? Someday a real rain will come and wash all this scum off the streets.

[ioan]

So here are some of the results of the status quo that you are so damn proud of.

Peter Sutcliffe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Sutcliffe)
Robert Pickton - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Pickton)
Speaking for the Dead - Rhode Island Monthly - May 2009 - Rhode Island (http://www.rimonthly.com/Rhode-Island-Monthly/May-2009/Speaking-for-the-Dead/)
Long Island serial killer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Island_serial_killer)
Ipswich serial murders - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipswich_serial_murders)

So, things are working out just fine are they ben? I can understand your point of view, after all they're all just worthless whores right? Someday a real rain will come and wash all this scum off the streets.

You're losing your time. In some countries people grow up with different views of what's right and wrong, with different moral compass that no amount of common sense and/or examples can change.

[Big Ben]

So here are some of the results of the status quo that you are so damn proud of.

Peter Sutcliffe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Sutcliffe)
Robert Pickton - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Pickton)
Speaking for the Dead - Rhode Island Monthly - May 2009 - Rhode Island (http://www.rimonthly.com/Rhode-Island-Monthly/May-2009/Speaking-for-the-Dead/)
Long Island serial killer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Island_serial_killer)
Ipswich serial murders - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipswich_serial_murders)

So, things are working out just fine are they ben? I can understand your point of view, after all they're all just worthless whores right? Someday a real rain will come and wash all this scum off the streets.

Jeeeesus! What do those have to do with me? Someone has lost his head. Bye bye Malbec. Have a nice life.

[ioan]

Jeeeesus! What do those have to do with me? Someone has lost his head. Bye bye Malbec. Have a nice life.

Chickening out eh? Just like most people like you do whenever they should assume responsibilities for what is happening in their society!

[Big Ben]

Chickening out eh? Just like most people like you do whenever they should assume responsibilities for what is happening in their society!

I should assume responsiblity for serial killers? You have no shame man. Disgusting.

[Malbec]

I should assume responsiblity for serial killers? You have no shame man. Disgusting.

Can you seriously not understand why prostitutes are targetted by serial killers? Because they're vulnerable and unprotected? Can you not see how they would be better protected in legal brothels? Other people can.

You don't appear to have put much thought into this subject.

[Malbec]

You're losing your time. In some countries people grow up with different views of what's right and wrong, with different moral compass that no amount of common sense and/or examples can change.

Sadly I disagree. Its not about the difference in culture between countries. 'big' ben for example is I think British though I might be wrong, the same as other people on this thread who are strongly pro-legalisation.

Unfortunately there are many people throughout many societies who do believe that prostitution should remain illegal and its consequences (which they don't address) should be swept under the carpet and not discussed. The posts below yours illustrate that perfectly. Even in the cases I quoted from the US and UK, many of the investigations were delayed because the police and other authorities simply didn't care much that prostitutes kept disappearing until the bodies just kept piling up.

[ioan]

I should assume responsiblity for serial killers? You have no shame man. Disgusting.

You do not have the level needed for understanding what is discussed here, that's the issue IMO.

[ioan]

Sadly I disagree. Its not about the difference in culture between countries. 'big' ben for example is I think British though I might be wrong, the same as other people on this thread who are strongly pro-legalisation.

Unfortunately there are many people throughout many societies who do believe that prostitution should remain illegal and its consequences (which they don't address) should be swept under the carpet and not discussed. The posts below yours illustrate that perfectly. Even in the cases I quoted from the US and UK, many of the investigations were delayed because the police and other authorities simply didn't care much that prostitutes kept disappearing until the bodies just kept piling up.

He's no British, he was known as 'eu' before becoming Big Ben and is from the country that my flag represents.

[ioan]

Come on chaps, this has been a good thread with interesting debate which is mostly sensible without insults. Let's keep it up :thumbup: :)

You're right! :)

[Big Ben]

Come on chaps, this has been a good thread with interesting debate which is mostly sensible without insults. Let's keep it up :thumbup: :)

One should be worried if ioan doesn´t insult him regularly.

It turns out I am a prejudiced British Orthodox and I've been living for 28 years without knowing that. I knew I was rahter against legalizing prostitution than for it but it seems I'm very vehement and loud about it and I'm driving people into becoming serial killers with a taste for 'whores' which is a term I'm very fond of inside my head but some people seemed to have gained access to that info too despite my efforts to hide it.

[ioan]

One should be worried if ioan doesn´t insult him regularly.

It turns out I am a prejudiced British Orthodox and I've been living for 28 years without knowing that. I knew I was rahter against legalizing prostitution than for it but it seems I'm very vehement and loud about it and I'm driving people into becoming serial killers with a taste for 'whores' which is a term I'm very fond of inside my head but some people seemed to have gained access to that info too despite my efforts to hide it.

Keep up the good work, you're doing a great job. :laugh:

[gadjo_dilo]

Because it was fun!

Ioane, you're just an old whore! ( to set the record straight, in romanian it's not an offence but an appreciation, it means someone with a lot of experience, someone who can't be fooled, etc. ).
You elegantly avoided my question...
I obviously wasn't interested on why you attended a strip club. I'm (still) interested on why you weren't (yet) at the "girls".



How do you know that? Just asking.

From the movies, from TV shows...... :laugh:
Now you don't believe I've ever been at one of those shows for women either.

Just imagine me at a show of Flamingo boys......



Only some people do that and they live in countries with orthodox religion. Rather self explanatory, especially as I lived in Romania for most of my life and I know how people think over there. In fact most people there think that prostitution is worse than theft.
If it's a reference to one of my previous posts you're making a mistake. I used the robbery example just because the reasons that were mentioned in favour of prostitution could very easily be applied to thiefs.
Otherwise I dare say you'll have some surprises to know how people think over here NOW. :laugh:

[Malbec]

It turns out I am a prejudiced British Orthodox and I've been living for 28 years without knowing that.

I'd take it as a compliment. Your written English is very difficult to distinguish from a native English speaker, had ioan not pointed it out I would not have believed it was your second language.

As for the rest of your post, I really don't think you've thought enough on the topic so you should expect that if you continually refuse to address the reason why people want to legalise prostitution that it is reasonable then to believe that that is because you believe those reasons are of no value.

[Malbec]

I'm (still) interested on why you weren't (yet) at the "girls".

Why, has he been at the "boys" already?

[gadjo_dilo]

Why, has he been at the "boys" already?
Don't think he's interested in such things. Whether he is or not I'm not intersted either.
Hope it's clear now.

[Jag_Warrior]

I used the robbery example just because the reasons that were mentioned in favour of prostitution could very easily be applied to thiefs.
Otherwise I dare say you'll have some surprises to know how people think over here NOW. :laugh:

But you have to concede that the comparison isn't really valid. Robbery, rape, or even forced prostitution are not consensual acts. I thought what we were discussing was a financial transaction (involving sex) between two *consenting* adults.

But if someone has moral objections to prostitution, I understand that. I have never used the services of prostitute... not overtly anyway. But I can't say that I've never been with girls whose primary attraction to me was a trip that I might take them on or something like that. I've always been too cheap (and proud) to pay a girl or even to buy expensive gifts for random girls. But (way) back in my "bad old days", it wasn't so uncommon for me to meet someone on a Friday night and end up renting an expensive hotel suite for the weekend. The way I see it now, that was sort of a "financial arrangement", true? Back then, maybe some girl would see my car or the watch that I was wearing and figure that I would be a good catch for some period of time. I wasn't. But maybe that's what some of them thought.

I did go to a wedding back in the 90's, and a guy I knew in college brought an escort as his date. He didn't tell anybody, though we wondered how a guy who had been a complete dork in school could land a quasi-model. She let the cat out of the bag to some of our dates after some drinks. I don't know if she slept with him (truly a prostitute), but she was paid to be his "girlfriend" for that weekend. Kind of a mini-scandal at the wedding and reception. But the way I saw it... they were both adults, so what will be, will be.

[BDunnell]

But you have to concede that the comparison isn't really valid. Robbery, rape, or even forced prostitution are not consensual acts. I thought what we were discussing was a financial transaction (involving sex) between two *consenting* adults.

But if someone has moral objections to prostitution, I understand that. I have never used the services of prostitute... not overtly anyway. But I can't say that I've never been with girls whose primary attraction to me was a trip that I might take them on or something like that. I've always been too cheap (and proud) to pay a girl or even to buy expensive gifts for random girls. But (way) back in my "bad old days", it wasn't so uncommon for me to meet someone on a Friday night and end up renting an expensive hotel suite for the weekend. The way I see it now, that was sort of a "financial arrangement", true? Back then, maybe some girl would see my car or the watch that I was wearing and figure that I would be a good catch for some period of time. I wasn't. But maybe that's what some of them thought.

I did go to a wedding back in the 90's, and a guy I knew in college brought an escort as his date. He didn't tell anybody, though we wondered how a guy who had been a complete dork in school could land a quasi-model. She let the cat out of the bag to some of our dates after some drinks. I don't know if she slept with him (truly a prostitute), but she was paid to be his "girlfriend" for that weekend. Kind of a mini-scandal at the wedding and reception. But the way I saw it... they were both adults, so what will be, will be.

You put it all most eloquently. I very much agree.

[airshifter]

But you have to concede that the comparison isn't really valid. Robbery, rape, or even forced prostitution are not consensual acts. I thought what we were discussing was a financial transaction (involving sex) between two *consenting* adults.

But if someone has moral objections to prostitution, I understand that. I have never used the services of prostitute... not overtly anyway. But I can't say that I've never been with girls whose primary attraction to me was a trip that I might take them on or something like that. I've always been too cheap (and proud) to pay a girl or even to buy expensive gifts for random girls. But (way) back in my "bad old days", it wasn't so uncommon for me to meet someone on a Friday night and end up renting an expensive hotel suite for the weekend. The way I see it now, that was sort of a "financial arrangement", true? Back then, maybe some girl would see my car or the watch that I was wearing and figure that I would be a good catch for some period of time. I wasn't. But maybe that's what some of them thought.

I did go to a wedding back in the 90's, and a guy I knew in college brought an escort as his date. He didn't tell anybody, though we wondered how a guy who had been a complete dork in school could land a quasi-model. She let the cat out of the bag to some of our dates after some drinks. I don't know if she slept with him (truly a prostitute), but she was paid to be his "girlfriend" for that weekend. Kind of a mini-scandal at the wedding and reception. But the way I saw it... they were both adults, so what will be, will be.

All good points Jag, but there is a flip side to every coin. Does anyone here really think that making prostitution legal will end all the prostitutes doing it in a black market fashion and thus avoiding any police presence?

And to some extent, all societies draw a line of morals in the sand when they create the laws of that country/state/region. Two consenting adults could also agree to make crack and smoke it, but society for the most part would still frown upon it.

[gadjo_dilo]

But you have to concede that the comparison isn't really valid. Robbery, rape, or even forced prostitution are not consensual acts. I thought what we were discussing was a financial transaction (involving sex) between two *consenting* adults.

.
I'm already tired to explain. Somebody ( henner?) said that "Prostitution will also always be seen as immoral, but its also something that will never be eradicated regardless of what label is slapped on it. It's the oldest industry in the world and there will always be a market for it".

What I meant was related to this motivation to legalise prostitution. Because either robbery will never be eradicated and is probably as old as prostitution.

Now believe what you want.

Otherwise, despite latest debates, my point of view on this issue was expressed on page 2 and I mantain it. I shall not risk again to post on this thread.

[gadjo_dilo]

During my posts of the last weeks I used to exclaim Fatality! - as things in my life are more and more related to the threads of this forum.

Fatality again! Just received an email from a certain WorldSex69 with the title "I want you! New job opportunities". Don't dare to open it.
Scary......

[Jag_Warrior]

All good points Jag, but there is a flip side to every coin. Does anyone here really think that making prostitution legal will end all the prostitutes doing it in a black market fashion and thus avoiding any police presence?

And to some extent, all societies draw a line of morals in the sand when they create the laws of that country/state/region. Two consenting adults could also agree to make crack and smoke it, but society for the most part would still frown upon it.

My thoughts would be more toward decriminalizing prostitution, rather than legalizing it. It's a very subtle difference, as that which isn't illegal is effectively legal. But I think it's rather ridiculous for police agencies to spend countless man hours, and the scant resources they have, trying to bust prostitutes and their customers, when more serious criminal cases are left to die on the vine. I'm not an extreme libertarian on social issues. But in most cases, whether it's prostitution, pornography, drugs, moonshine liquor, etc., my basic view is that what two consenting adults decide to do with, or put in their bodies, is their business. I may not approve. It might be harmful to them. And I may see it as immoral too. But as long as it involves consenting adults, and they keep their private affairs private (unlike streetwalkers, selling drugs or moonshine on a public street or whatever), I'm generally not for the government acting as a nanny.

I do agree with you that (just like with pornography) it should depend on prevailing community standards. But there are a great many things that can be seen as immoral, yet are still (technically) legal. Many moons ago, I owned a small mortgage broker, and later worked for a couple of mortgage banks after my partners and I sold our firm. And though we didn't do the things that became commonplace in the early 2000's in mortgage banking (subprime for the average borrower/average property didn't truly exist back then), I'm sure that we did many things which many/most here might call "immoral" or "unethical". But they were not illegal. I have a very different life view now than I did then. So I wouldn't defend how I saw things or did things back then. But still, I can't see it being a good use of resources to try to criminalize each and every act which some consider to be immoral or unethical.


I'm already tired to explain. Somebody ( henner?) said that "Prostitution will also always be seen as immoral, but its also something that will never be eradicated regardless of what label is slapped on it. It's the oldest industry in the world and there will always be a market for it".

What I meant was related to this motivation to legalise prostitution. Because either robbery will never be eradicated and is probably as old as prostitution.

Now believe what you want.

Otherwise, despite latest debates, my point of view on this issue was expressed on page 2 and I mantain it. I shall not risk again to post on this thread.

Please don't think that I was trying to paint you into a corner or change your mind - I wasn't. I was just making the point that things which are not consensual cannot be accurately compared to things which are consensual... even though both acts might have existed since the beginning of time.

[ioan]

Ioane, you're just an old whore! ( to set the record straight, in romanian it's not an offence but an appreciation, it means someone with a lot of experience, someone who can't be fooled, etc. ).

OK, I'll take that as a compliment! :laugh:


You elegantly avoided my question...
I obviously wasn't interested on why you attended a strip club. I'm (still) interested on why you weren't (yet) at the "girls".

Because I've never seen a whore that looks as good as a stripper. I've really never been attracted to whores.

[ioan]

I think the reason prostitution is illegal in many countries is because our politicians are afraid to lose votes through an unpopular move amongst certain classes and its a very difficult industry to tax. Sharing an experience is very different to producing a product for sale.

That's how it is.

[ioan]

During my posts of the last weeks I used to exclaim Fatality! - as things in my life are more and more related to the threads of this forum.

Fatality again! Just received an email from a certain WorldSex69 with the title "I want you! New job opportunities". Don't dare to open it.
Scary......

Go ahead open it, if you don't you might regret it for a lifetime! :D

[gadjo_dilo]

Because I've never seen a whore that looks as good as a stripper. I've really never been attracted to whores.
That's the answer I've been expecting. Because I still can't understand why a normal person should require such services.
( If you consider "normal" as an offence I apologize in advance :laugh: )



Go ahead open it, if you don't you might regret it for a lifetime! .
I'm considering it, not kidding.
Otherwise my current job will soon make me throw myself through the window so there will be no time for regrets.

[ioan]

That's the answer I've been expecting. Because I still can't understand why a normal person should require such services.
( If you consider "normal" as an offence I apologize in advance :laugh: )

:)



I'm considering it, not kidding.
Otherwise my current job will soon make me throw myself through the window so there will be no time for regrets.

Let us know! ;)
But take care this is a family forum! :D

[Roamy]

During my posts of the last weeks I used to exclaim Fatality! - as things in my life are more and more related to the threads of this forum.

Fatality again! Just received an email from a certain WorldSex69 with the title "I want you! New job opportunities". Don't dare to open it.
Scary......


Post your picture - you may get more than one offer :)

[gadjo_dilo]

Post your picture - you may get more than one offer :)

On the contrary. I'll scare people off. :laugh:

[Jag_Warrior]

Although it's skating a thin line, how do people here feel about escorting? Even in my "Bible belt" state, escorting is not illegal. Only when there is a prior agreement for paid sexual services is the act illegal. As with the fellow at the wedding I mentioned, if you want to pay someone (just) to accompany you somewhere, that is legal everywhere in the U.S. (as far as I know). And additionally, if you then just happen to wind up having sex with that person (*wink wink... nod, nod*), that also is not illegal. Moral or immoral, I don't know. I'm just speaking about legalities, as best I understand them. But how do the members feel about that issue?

[ioan]

No issues whatsoever.

[ioan]

I've PM'ed you the number of that girl you were asking about ;) :p

Thanks, I hope she really looks as good as in the picture you use to advertise her in your avatar! :D

[ioan]

Oh Miss Brigitte Bardot has aged slightly since that was taken ioan, I hate to disappoint.. :p

Oups, at least it is not Marilyn Monroe.
Well in that case I really have to chose another one for this week ends gala, please send me your full catalog, including small details like birthdays. :)

[gadjo_dilo]

So good old Brigitte is Ioan's type..... :laugh:

But I'm afraid you will finally be satisfied by Sexy Braileanca :laugh: :laugh:

[Roamy]

So good old Brigitte is Ioan's type..... :laugh:

But I'm afraid you will finally be satisfied by Sexy Braileanca :laugh: :laugh:

Sexy is a pisspoor example of a good slut !