2013 cars: Back to the future?

[Azumanga Davo]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/9307861.stm

Some exciting rule changes ahead. But could they and will they work?

[Mark]

Outstanding! And about time!

There's nothing there I can disagree with.

[ShiftingGears]

Looks quite promising. I'm looking forward to it. I rather doubt that the amount of throttle time will be cut by such a significant amount if it's being replaced by ground effects and greater mechanical grip, but it does mean that cars will be able to follow each other more closely.

Hopefully the power output of the engines is at least equal or greater than at present.

[wedge]

Fantastic!

I've been waiting for years to see if smaller wings and grounds effect - even if it is (if I've understood correctly) to be spec venturis would work to give closer racing again.

[I am evil Homer]

Well they had two top guys working on it, so i'll be cautiously optimistic.

[UltimateDanGTR]

Some good stuff there. Looks like it could improve racing aswell if done right. I just hope the straight line speeds of the cars remain pretty similar and the cars don't have small enough wings to make them look like oval spec CART cars. I always preffered thos machines in road course form.

Just a question to throw out there; Will the new floor tunnels effect the sidepods of the car? Back in 1982 cars had sidepods that went right up to the front wheels almost, Yet when all the underfloor stuff was banned we saw a change in sidepod design, which went as far back as the Brabham BMW of 1983 with the pods stuck right at the back. Todays sidepods come as far foward as the front of the cockpit with a clear gap between the front of them and the wheels. I'm wondering if this would need to be changed.

[schmenke]

"...The average proportion of a lap that a driver is able to spend on full throttle to be cut from 70% in 2010 to 50% in 2013..."

I'm not sure I understand this. Is this the expectation as a result of the proposed changes, or will the throttle time be physically limited somehow?

[UltimateDanGTR]

"...The average proportion of a lap that a driver is able to spend on full throttle to be cut from 70% in 2010 to 50% in 2013..."

I'm not sure I understand this. Is this the expectation as a result of the proposed changes, or will the throttle time be physically limited somehow?

This has been the cause of much confusion across the internet it seems.

It would seem that this means that some of the very fastest corners may not be full throttle anymore, due to the lower downforce. In the sentences context if there was a limit it would indicate that there is a limit of 70% now, which simply isn't true. I.e. We could well see Eau Rouge becoming a challenging corner again....

[Alfa Fan]

For Eau Rouge, 130R, Turn 13, Copse, Blanchimont, Degner to return to their former glory, the extensive tarmac run-offs would have to go.

[Sonic]

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeeees!

There is a God!

Just what we've all been hoping for.

Let's hope they don't screw it up.

[gloomyDAY]

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeeees!

There is a God!

Just what we've all been hoping for.

Let's hope they don't screw it up.Jinxed it! :p

[Sonic]

Jinxed it! :p

FRAK! :( ;)

[ShiftingGears]

Is this the expectation as a result of the proposed changes?

Yes.

[ShiftingGears]

We could well see Eau Rouge becoming a challenging corner again....

I doubt we'll see drivers doing this through Eau Rouge though... :p :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8a0eZvfwEp8

[Sonic]

I doubt we'll see drivers doing this through Eau Rouge though... :p :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8a0eZvfwEp8

What a corner! :D

[gloomyDAY]

I doubt we'll see drivers doing this through Eau Rouge though... :p :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8a0eZvfwEp8Wasn't there a false start that year?

Man, that is a hell-of-a sight!!

[ArrowsFA1]

* Much smaller front and rear wings;
* A far greater proportion of the total downforce of the cars will be created by the underfloor, compared to the wings;
* A major reduction in the amount of total downforce created by the car;
* To achieve this, the underfloor of the cars will be shaped along its length to generate downforce for the first time since the 1982 season - currently cars have bottoms that are flat between the wheels;
* The average proportion of a lap that a driver is able to spend on full throttle to be cut from 70% in 2010 to 50% in 2013;
* Tyres will remain large and chunky to ensure cornering speeds remain high.

Hurrah!!!! :up: :s mokin:

[Zico]

Fantastic news, its the change in direction, F1 has been crying out for.. Personally I'd also ditch the KERS but other than that delighted.

"The new regulations are being fine-tuned by FIA race director Charlie Whiting this week before being sent to the 12 F1 teams for analysis. In the new year, they will be critiqued at the sport's Technical Working Group, a group of leading engineers who effectively define the technical rules.

Head says "sure as hell there'll be some small changes" there. The basic philosophy, though, is expected to stay the same, while Head says the shaped underfloor is "inevitable".

I just hope they dont make too many changes.

[Mark]

I expect that it's just an aim of the changes that drivers should spend no more than 50%'of the time
at full throttle. If they exceed that then either change the cars or the tracks to bring it down.

[steveaki13]

Looks promising.

I hope these changes in 2013, are going achieve all that we hope for.

[Bolton Midnight]

I thought at first the amount of time full throttle could be used would be some how limited, thought that didn't sound v safe.

But if the car relies on air passing under it, won't it still suffer once it is in the hole created by the car in front?

And will the sidepods be narrower at the bottom than further up, as they will look a bit ugly.

No front wings, skinny rear wing, huge slicks and 1000hp - sort the men from the boys - more power than grip is usually a good recipe for a race.

[wedge]

Some good stuff there. Looks like it could improve racing aswell if done right. I just hope the straight line speeds of the cars remain pretty similar and the cars don't have small enough wings to make them look like oval spec CART cars. I always preffered thos machines in road course form.

Just a question to throw out there; Will the new floor tunnels effect the sidepods of the car? Back in 1982 cars had sidepods that went right up to the front wheels almost, Yet when all the underfloor stuff was banned we saw a change in sidepod design, which went as far back as the Brabham BMW of 1983 with the pods stuck right at the back. Todays sidepods come as far foward as the front of the cockpit with a clear gap between the front of them and the wheels. I'm wondering if this would need to be changed.

There's rules on the side impact tests, IIRC. One of the best ways of getting the best out of grounds effect was from the sidepods sucking up air and acting a bit like louvres but it seems they're imitating CART/Indycar limiting DF from the design of the floor and dimensions of the venturi tunnels.


But if the car relies on air passing under it, won't it still suffer once it is in the hole created by the car in front?

Grounds effect produces lesser of a turbulent wake than the wings/vortice cleaning-bodywork appendages.

[Mark]

Less of turbulent wake plus the downforce it generates is much less affected by dirty air therefore a following car will lose a much smaller proportion of the total downforce.

[Bolton Midnight]

I seem to recall talk of dirty air etc at the peak of the ground effect cars, but maybe how it was back then was not as bad as now.

I think the fact everyone still remembers Arnoux and Villeneuve in 79 rather demonstrates that lack of overtaking certainly isn't just a modern phenomenon.

[TheFamousEccles]

No front wings, skinny rear wing, huge slicks and 1000hp - sort the men from the boys - more power than grip is usually a good recipe for a race.


Couldn't agree more. Yeehar - looking forward to this eventuating.

[cosmicpanda]

I think the fact everyone still remembers Arnoux and Villeneuve in 79 rather demonstrates that lack of overtaking certainly isn't just a modern phenomenon.

I agree - you only need to dig around in old race reports and driver interviews to find a few discussions of a lack of overtaking. It is, however, ridiculous when you have a car 2 seconds per lap faster than the one in front and yet unable to pass.

I think one of the things that leads to passing and excitement that is very difficult to put into regulations is driver error - it's why I think Monaco is such a success every year. If you made exactly a track of similar twistiness but with Tilke runoffs, it would become boring and artificial, as it would have lost the challenge presented by the walls. Fast and difficult corners are another thing that adds character to circuits - slow or more technical ones are all very well and of course necessary, but to take an example: the defining character of Silverstone is speed and fast corners. When they put in the twisty arena section at the end of the lap, it rather ruined that part of the track. It's better now, I think, which makes it one of the rare occasions that I'm pleased with a track redesign! This is why it frustrates me when you see press releases from new tracks that boast of a mix of corners, since unless there's serious elevation changes, corners for the sake of corners are boring. (Elevation does make things interesting; the middle sections of Monaco and Bathurst and the first section of Instanbul come to mind.)

Fortunately Tilke seems to be moving towards bringing walls closer to the circuit again, as seen in Korea and Abu Dhabi, but his 'longest straight in F1 + hairpin' philosophy seems flawed. He's tried it out at every single track he's designed and it's never really worked, when will he learn?

[Sonic]

I seem to recall talk of dirty air etc at the peak of the ground effect cars, but maybe how it was back then was not as bad as now.

I think the fact everyone still remembers Arnoux and Villeneuve in 79 rather demonstrates that lack of overtaking certainly isn't just a modern phenomenon.

And Gilles was probably one of the most vocal about the difficulties of passing (even then). I definitely remember reading a quote from him stating that with the level of grip the cars were capable of producing they needed triple the amount of horsepower to make the cars spectacular and able to pass.

I think it has to be remembered that overtaking is difficult - in any category - even without wings, and it should be difficult in F1 too. I'd happily take four great moves a race over four a lap engineered by the regulations.

[call_me_andrew]

How are big slicks going to separate the men from the boys? More foot to the floor racing?


(Elevation does make things interesting; the middle sections of Monaco and Bathurst and the first section of Instanbul come to mind.)

Fortunately Tilke seems to be moving towards bringing walls closer to the circuit again, as seen in Korea and Abu Dhabi, but his 'longest straight in F1 + hairpin' philosophy seems flawed. He's tried it out at every single track he's designed and it's never really worked, when will he learn?

I think elevation has more to do with it than anything else. Take the Corkscrew at Laguna Seca; without the drop in elevation, it's just another chicane.

Looking at satellite pictures of Abu Dhabi, I realized that Tilke doubled back a few times just to make the track longer.

[Dragan-F1]

It's terrible!!! :angryfire
The best F1 cars was at season 2008.

[Mark]

It's terrible!!! :angryfire
The best F1 cars was at season 2008.

You cannot be serious!

[schmenke]

Grip? Who needs grip? :D

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5129/5375545138_e8827f61a5.jpg

[Mark]

Massive amount of power and very little grip is what's been called for, for a long time! Instead they keep decreasing the available power and letting the aero grip increase exponentially!

[Flatsixrules]

I'm optomistic about the 2013 changes. And, I doubt that when the cars hit the track they're as much as 5 seconds a lap slower. The F1 engineers are that good.

[Bolton Midnight]

I think one of the things that leads to passing and excitement that is very difficult to put into regulations is driver error

Missed gear etc would usually cause an overtaking manoeuvre, but with flappy paddle shift seems to be a thing of the past

[SGWilko]

Missed gear etc would usually cause an overtaking manoeuvre, but with flappy paddle shift seems to be a thing of the past

Indeed, and if the 'box misses a gear by itself, you know it's 'bombay ducked'.... ;)

[Bullet]

Feels like April Fools, they wouldn't really do something this good for F1 would they? Although, after a decade plus of just about everyone asking...