Sissy Southerners

[Eki]

...have been forced to close their airports because of snow and now they wonder how the Helsinki-Vantaa Airport is able to remain open:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12042213

[gloomyDAY]

Good planning leads to success. LHR seem to have been caught with their pants down.

Oh, I lmao! @ the thread title. I thought it was going to be about Kentucky.

[GridGirl]

The world is coming to an end? Oh no, it's just snow in the south east. Oh dear. Maybe we should release a charity single and send food parcels. ;) :p

On a more serious note, it would make more financial sense to invest in better machiney to keep airports open. Particually so for big inter change hubs such as Heathrow. The whole situation would be a dream come true for the baddie in Die Hard 2.

[AndySpeed]

I don't believe in the 'north-south' divide in England. Born in SE England, spent 5 years in Lancashire. Same country.

[driveace]

well i know a guy who was flying out to Las vegas last Thursday from Heathrow,then after 4 days on to Los Angeles to catch a cruise ship for 8 day cruise.Well at this very moment 5 days later he is STILL in London.Should be out to LA tomorrow with Virgin BUT!!!!
Our local airport Leeds/Bradford,has no problems!! So get your fingers out heathrow!!!

[GridGirl]

There is no snow at Leeds Bradford though. I also doubt Leeds Bradford managed to stay open constantly when it snowed 2 weeks ago. The north is no better than London when it comes to dealing with snow.

[driveace]

There is no snow at Leeds Bradford though. I also doubt Leeds Bradford managed to stay open constantly when it snowed 2 weeks ago. The north is no better than London when it comes to dealing with snow.
Well your wrong grid girl,because i live within a mile of leeds/Bradford airport,and we have had lots of snow,but like the airports in Finland they are quickly sorted,as jet2 and Ryanair dont like to be stranded,my daughter lives on the take off flight path,and the first plane we hear go over is at 6.40 in amorning,there was a slight delay when we had the snow 2 mweeks ago,but they were still taking off at 9am.
AND leeds/bradford is britains highest airport i believe
unless you know better as you are employed there!!!

[GridGirl]

You seem to have taken offence driveace. Well I have to say that I havent been close to the airport today but there definitely wasn't any snow worth mentioning when I was in Leeds this morning. Two weeks ago maybe but not today. Its lovely to know that Leeds Bradford is the highest airport in the county. Im so proud. :)

[Easy Drifter]

It is a matter of equipment largely. Northern US airports and most major Cdn ones are equipped to handle large amounts of snow. Even so they do get shut down when there is two or three feet in a short time. Southern US airports can be shut down with just a little snow. It is not just plows it is often insufficient deicing gear. Planes cannot take off coated in ice.

[Mark in Oshawa]

the UK's big operations like Heathrow should have everything A JFK, Pearson Intl. or O' Hare has......because Heathrow is one of the 3 signature gateway airports to Europe for North American traffic. I read Frankfurt was still operating and so was Schiphol, but Heathrow being the closest to North America is the key.....

[donKey jote]

Frankfurt is closed again today and Schiphol... well I'll be able to tell you first hand tomorrow :s
NOT looking forward to Xmas in a coffee shop :dozey:
:bandit:

[Rudy Tamasz]

I made two flights amid a mighty snowfall last week and had no problems whatsoever. Only once we had to spend about an hour on the runway when airport services were defrosting the plane.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Frankfurt is closed again today and Schiphol... well I'll be able to tell you first hand tomorrow :s
NOT looking forward to Xmas in a coffee shop :dozey:
:bandit:

The last I had seen in the Monday "National Post" out of Toronto had a story saying Amsterdam and Frankfurt were seeing some traffic, but a lot of Europe bound flights for other centers were ending up in Munich.

Some parts of Europe who see Winter are just better equipped to handle things, but judging by Daniel's pictures of his car in the snow of Wales, it is a real good winter storm hitting most of Europe....

[Dave B]

We in the UK seem to have this view that we are unique in being affected by snow, when the rest of the world copes perfectly. That's clearly not true, but it doesn't stop people having a moan.

I think LHR's problem stems from running so close to maximum capacity at all times, thanks in no small part to successive governments' failure to invest in runways in the south-east for fear of upsetting anyone.

Less busy airports have the opportunity to clear the runway between flights, but when you've got a plane landing or taking off every 40 seconds you'd need a fleet of Formula One snowploughs.... hang on, I'm off to apply to Dragons' Den.

[Eki]

We in the UK seem to have this view that we are unique in being affected by snow, when the rest of the world copes perfectly. That's clearly not true, but it doesn't stop people having a moan.

I think LHR's problem stems from running so close to maximum capacity at all times, thanks in no small part to successive governments' failure to invest in runways in the south-east for fear of upsetting anyone.

Less busy airports have the opportunity to clear the runway between flights, but when you've got a plane landing or taking off every 40 seconds you'd need a fleet of Formula One snowploughs.... hang on, I'm off to apply to Dragons' Den.
Well, they could cancel or redirect just some flights, not all of them. Except if the only thing they have is an old man with a shovel.

[Dave B]

Well, they could cancel or redirect just some flights, not all of them. Except if the only thing they have is an old man with a shovel.
Oh don't get me wrong, the whole thing could and should have been handled better, especially with regard to the dismal amount of information apparently given to pax.

But you have to remember that this weather is rare in the UK, especially in the south. What we had this week was a sudden and intense snowstorm which, although forecast, was almost unprecidented. It's simply unrealistic to expect airports to keep equipment on standby which might only be used for a few days every decade.

The big question is whether this type of winter will become more common, or whether it's a temporary blip. Should airports (and railways, and highways agencies etc) spend money now to help prevent a recurrence of this chaos, or do we risk having hundreds of ploughs and de-icing rigs sat idle for a decade because this was a freak occurrance?

[GridGirl]

Some planes arriving in the UK have been diverted to other airports. Correct me if I'm wrong but not all planes would be allowed to be redirected to other airports. That big Airbus plane probably can't land or take off from quite a few of the smaller airports in the UK.

[Dave B]

According to this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/manchester/hi/people_and_places/newsid_8929000/8929091.stm) there were only 17 airports in the world (as of August '10) which could handle the A380, Manchester being the only other one in the UK outside of the affected south.

I'm sure other runways such as Manston (Kent International) are long enough to allow emergency landings (and the subsequent take-off), but wouldn't have the ground facilities to safely service the plane.

[Edit: according to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A380#Ground_operations), the A380 can use any runway which can accomodate a 747, but the point about ground facilities stands]

[Rollo]

After WW2 Heathrow had six runways arranged in a giant star of David pattern. You can still sort of mak out where four of them went.
http://www.thelondondailynews.com/images/Heathrow.jpg

The additions of Terminals 1, 2, 3 then 4 and 5 and the proposed Terminal 6 has meant that all but two have been built over, simply to accomodate sheer number the aircraft that go to Heathrow.
Dave is quite right about the A380. Runway length isn't a problem, but the potential exists in the airframe to extend the capacity to more than 900 people. When Terminal 1 was built in 1968 (in order to accomodate the then future 747) the biggest passenger load was the 707-320 with only 179 passengers.

Poor old Heathrow reached "saturation" (ie one plane a minute) back in the 1970s. It's asking a bit much from an airport which essentially dates from 1947.

[wedge]

...have been forced to close their airports because of snow and now they wonder how the Helsinki-Vantaa Airport is able to remain open:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12042213

Ah, yes, Helsinki-Vantaa Airport, one of the busiest transport hubs in the world


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-12039443

In an airport like Heathrow - much busier than Stockholm-Arlanda - which can often be operating at 98% of capacity, small amounts of disruption can cause rafts of cancellations.

"Really busy airports operate pretty close to capacity - even going to a more widely spaced approaches might mean cancellations," says Learmount.

At smaller airports the effects of the weather on schedules may be much less noticeable.

[Daniel]

According to this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/manchester/hi/people_and_places/newsid_8929000/8929091.stm) there were only 17 airports in the world (as of August '10) which could handle the A380, Manchester being the only other one in the UK outside of the affected south.

I'm sure other runways such as Manston (Kent International) are long enough to allow emergency landings (and the subsequent take-off), but wouldn't have the ground facilities to safely service the plane.

[Edit: according to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A380#Ground_operations), the A380 can use any runway which can accomodate a 747, but the point about ground facilities stands]

One thing that also needs to be considered is tyre pressures. The training airport I did my flying from has runways long enough to land some small passenger jets but the tarmac itself isn't strong enough to deal with the pressures even something like a 767 would put on them for long periods of time.

http://www.jandakotairport.com.au/Airport_Information.asp

As to whether the airports and other transport services should fork out for this equipment when next winter might be mild? Who knows, but you just know that whatever is done, it's going to be the wrong thing :p

[Rollo]

One thing that also needs to be considered is tyre pressures. The training airport I did my flying from has runways long enough to land some small passenger jets but the tarmac itself isn't strong enough to deal with the pressures even something like a 767 would put on them for long periods of time.

How many RAF bases are dotted around London that could deal with big aircraft?
The RAAF regularly allows the big C5 Galaxy out of the RAAF base at Richmond, and we even see the Antonov AN-124 operate out of RAAF Avalon in Victoria.

I would expect that the other major headache for airports is the logistical nightmare in matching people to their luggage. Grant in the days of the 707 that would only be about 400 pieces of luggage per plane, but with an A380 monster that approaches 1800 per plane.

I was watching a telly program called "Big, Bigger, Biggest" and one of those episodes looked at airports. T5 gets a mention:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2N0H2j_zFO0

[Mark in Oshawa]

As to whether the airports and other transport services should fork out for this equipment when next winter might be mild? Who knows, but you just know that whatever is done, it's going to be the wrong thing :p

In the case of Heathrow, even if the plows never move for 3 years, in one snow storm the lost revenue from landing fees would have paid for the plows. This is the busiest and arguably the most important airport in the Western World........

[Dave B]

Heathrow's operator BAA reduced its investment in snow clearing equipment from £1.5m last year, to just £500,000 in the current financial year.

Meanwhile, Gatwick Airport is preparing to receive its third extra snow plough in as many days.


http://www.channel4.com/news/heathrow-cut-snow-defence-spend-by-two-thirds

[Rollo]

Surely Ferrovial et al who own BAA Ltd. should pay for the snow clearing equipment. They obviously don't seem to think that there's a commercial disadvantage to having the airport closed by snow.

[Dave B]

We had (still have, really) the opportunity to build a future-proof new airport in the Thames estuary. Granted it would be no more immune to the weather than anywhere else, but it would have offered vastly more capacity than LHR and LGW combined. Sadly it's been ruled out by the past and present government, I suspect on ideological grounds as air travel is perceived as the big bad bogeyman, so it remains a distant dream.

[donKey jote]

Bollox... Stuck in schiphol :s

[Eki]

Bollox... Stuck in schiphol :s
Is it allowed to say sh!thole here?