F1 drivers face tougher penalties

[CNR]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/9283716.stm


In 2011 stewards will be able to exclude drivers from a race or suspend them for the next grand prix.
The FIA, the sport's governing body, also identified driving practices it wants to eradicate.
They include drivers making more than one change of direction in trying to defend a position or the deliberate crowding of a car.

[Daniel]

Excellent. We need to see some race bans to sort out some of the more ridiculous moves stopped.

[Sleeper]

About time.

[555-04Q2]

More rules / rule changes, same circus.

[Daniel]

I can't wait to see a few drivers banned and then we can watch weak and strong races all season. It would be awesome to watch a race without drivers like Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso, Rosberg, and Webber etc, and to know they were banned would really make me tune in and highlight how much of an achievement it would be for a driver to win a race without those guys as competition. :rolleyes:

So you're cool with people having accidents which are reckless and potentially fatal for themselves or the other driver and getting away with a slap on the wrist?

[ArrowsFA1]

I've got mixed feelings about this. There are already existing rules that cover driving standards but the issue has been the inconsistent application of those rules and the differing penalties applied at different times. Creating more rules does not solve that issue.

Also I don't like to see more and more restrictions placed on what drivers can and cannot do, and how they are supposed to go racing. Drivers themselves used to know the limits of what was acceptable, and dealt with those they felt were over the limit themselves. Now, it seems, the drivers have absolved themselves of that responsibility and need someone else to tell them what is or is not acceptable. Shouldn't they know themselves?

And another thing...one of the issues facing F1 is the lack of overtaking opportunities and I've always though the 'one move' rule made overtaking even more difficult. Just think, under that rule Piquet & Mansell might have been penalised for their ducking and diving at Silverstone in 1987.

This pronouncement by the FIA says "manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers...are not permitted". Errrr...isn't defending your position deliberately hindering another driver? If so can you not now defend your position i.e. race?

[Sonic]

I've got mixed feelings about this. There are already existing rules that cover driving standards but the issue has been the inconsistent application of those rules and the differing penalties applied at different times. Creating more rules does not solve that issue.
Also I don't like to see more and more restrictions placed on what drivers can and cannot do, and how they are supposed to go racing. Drivers themselves used to know the limits of what was acceptable, and dealt with those they felt were over the limit themselves. Now, it seems, the drivers have absolved themselves of that responsibility and need someone else to tell them what is or is not acceptable. Shouldn't they know themselves?
And another thing...one of the issues facing F1 is the lack of overtaking opportunities and I've always though the 'one move' rule made overtaking even more difficult. Just think, under that rule Piquet & Mansell might have been penalised for their ducking and diving at Silverstone in 1987.
This pronouncement by the FIA says "manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers...are not permitted". Errrr...isn't defending your position deliberately hindering another driver? If so can you not now defend your position i.e. race?

This :up:

Just about spot on IMO. Defending is as much an art as overtaking, but where drivers are praised to the heavens for a good pass, defending your position is viewed as the work of Satin himself.

Clearly there has to be a line drawn in the sand. Things like Schumacher's move on Rubens. 98% of that was fine, right up until Michael refused to leave a single cars width to the wall.

As you say the drivers used to know the limits - that doesn't apply any more.

[SGWilko]

This :up:

Just about spot on IMO. Defending is as much an art as overtaking, but where drivers are praised to the heavens for a good pass, defending your position is viewed as the work of Satin himself.
Indeed - the art of skillful defending has become diluted somewhat. The Shoe and Alonso respectively at Imola on different years is an example of how to defend skillfully. The Hulk at Monza in 2010 is an example of how not to do it.


Clearly there has to be a line drawn in the sand. Things like Schumacher's move on Rubens. 98% of that was fine, right up until Michael refused to leave a single cars width to the wall.

As you say the drivers used to know the limits - that doesn't apply any more. Of course, quotes from the likes of Moss and JYS tell you why this is so;

"we don't drive dangerously because if we do, we die" or words to that effect.

[Cooper_S]

right up until Michael refused to leave a single cars width to the wall.

The fact Rubens was along side would indicate Schumacher did leave a single car width... the problem was he should have left 1.5.

The rule is fair enough but people must accept with such a rule we would never have see many of the past greats race very much. we have had 16 years without fatality and the two in 1994 were not related to drivers scrapping for position.

This is just another move to sanitise the sport I have watched regularly since 1986

[Daniel]

I've got mixed feelings about this. There are already existing rules that cover driving standards but the issue has been the inconsistent application of those rules and the differing penalties applied at different times. Creating more rules does not solve that issue.

Also I don't like to see more and more restrictions placed on what drivers can and cannot do, and how they are supposed to go racing. Drivers themselves used to know the limits of what was acceptable, and dealt with those they felt were over the limit themselves. Now, it seems, the drivers have absolved themselves of that responsibility and need someone else to tell them what is or is not acceptable. Shouldn't they know themselves?

And another thing...one of the issues facing F1 is the lack of overtaking opportunities and I've always though the 'one move' rule made overtaking even more difficult. Just think, under that rule Piquet & Mansell might have been penalised for their ducking and diving at Silverstone in 1987.

This pronouncement by the FIA says "manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers...are not permitted". Errrr...isn't defending your position deliberately hindering another driver? If so can you not now defend your position i.e. race?

The wording sure is clumsy but so was some of the driving that we saw this year.

I'm all for racing. But some of the drivers have become too cocky IMHO and seem to think that because Senna's death was over a decade and a half ago that it's not going to happen to them because todays cars are so safe.

There were some really stupid moves this year like Webber on Kovalainen, Vettel/Webber on Webber/Vettel and of course Schumacher on Rubens though to be fair as someone pointed out, Michael did at least leave Rubens room even if there should have been more room left.....

We also saw some fantastic racing like Jenson and Lewis in Turkey where two drivers pushed each other and made for exciting racing but were obviously also very respectful of each other.

One driver killing or seriously injuring another driver would be seriously bad for the sport.

[Daniel]

Further to what I said above, what about Kobayashi? I don't recall any particular move where he put himself or others in any special amount of danger yet this man was responsible for a lot of overtaking and a lot of excitement. Nobody wants to see F1 sanitised, but Kobayashi is living proof that it needn't be.

[Sonic]

We also saw some fantastic racing like Jenson and Lewis in Turkey where two drivers pushed each other and made for exciting racing but were obviously also very respectful of each other.

True. We don't want to see an end to this.

[Cooper_S]

your missing my point...

When was the last F1 fatality (or even serious injury) attributed to drivers racing against each other to aggressively, as opposed to crashing in practice or because of car failure... I've only been watching F1 since the 1986 season and in that time I do not recall one, maybe someone else will know the answer.

[Daniel]

True. We don't want to see an end to this.

Why should this mean the end of skillful exchanges like this?

Nothing that Jenson or Lewis did in those few laps is likely to have been under scrutiny. Ditto Kobyashi for most of the season too :)

I think it's irrelevant to point out the last fatality was 16 years ago and wasn't attributed to drivers racing each other as such. We're always potentially just 1 race away from a fatality and IMHO a number of times this year we saw behaviour which seemed to suggest that some drivers didn't respect the welfare of other drivers as much as they should.

[BDunnell]

Why should this mean the end of skillful exchanges like this?

Nothing that Jenson or Lewis did in those few laps is likely to have been under scrutiny. Ditto Kobyashi for most of the season too :)

The examples you pick are good ones, but recent evidence has suggested that hard racing is still likely to be penalised. I still feel the penalty meted out to Hamilton at Spa in 2008 was absolutely absurd, for example. There is a reason why the Schumacher/Barrichello incident this year attracted such opprobrium, including from people who've been around F1 for years — it was on another level of recklessness compared to most.

[Daniel]

The examples you pick are good ones, but recent evidence has suggested that hard racing is still likely to be penalised. I still feel the penalty meted out to Hamilton at Spa in 2008 was absolutely absurd, for example. There is a reason why the Schumacher/Barrichello incident this year attracted such opprobrium, including from people who've been around F1 for years — it was on another level of recklessness compared to most.

Lets be fair. Hamilton's penalty in 2008 wasn't absolutely absurd, he cut the chicane, gained an advantage and whilst giving back some of the advantage, used it to overtake Kimi! But lets not reopen that old can of worms.

If the penalties that are currently given out were to be kept the same then it merely makes it uncomfortably likely that someone is going to get hurt in the future and I think that's something which should be taken seriously.

Accidents can happen and I seem to remember Liuzzi almost accidently took Schumachers head off in the last race, stuff like that can happen just by accident on a crowded track and we need to accept that, but when stuff goes beyond that then I think race bans need to be handed out.

[SGWilko]

Schumacher on Rubens though to be fair as someone pointed out, Michael did at least leave Rubens room

Seriously, I do not think a single ply tissue's width should be taken as sufficient room....... ;)

[Daniel]

Seriously, I do not think a single ply tissue's width should be taken as sufficient room....... ;)

I agree, but just enough room is better than 99.99999% enough room :p

If things were the way I think they should be then Schumacher would have got a race ban for what he did. Docking points or a grid drop is BS IMHO. You've allowed the fool out there on the track, give him a proper punishment and make him stand in the garage while 20+ other people who respect each other battle it out.

[ioan]

I've got mixed feelings about this. There are already existing rules that cover driving standards but the issue has been the inconsistent application of those rules and the differing penalties applied at different times. Creating more rules does not solve that issue.

Bingo!!! Very well put. :up:

[ioan]

...while 20+ other people who respect each other battle it out.

Have I missed it and we will have 100 cars at the start of a race next season?!

[Tazio]

Seriously, I do not think a single ply tissue's width should be taken as sufficient room....... ;) I pulled hard for Mike when he was at Ferrari. I have stated several times on this forum I will back anyone "The Scuds" trot out there.
Now I view him as I do most other drivers. I admire the fact that almost all are extremely talented, plus what they do takes balls.

Try to imagine if Rubens was Mika, and this is not a jab at The Cello. If Mike used that move this would very likely be the result and aftermath. Mika passes and after the race maybe grins a little when asked to recount the incident, but because he knows Mike is calculating in a ruthless way and that Mike will force you to slice ham in that situation. Mika would not allow Mike to think that he let him get into his head by taking it to the press. He'd just get on with it.

[Cooper_S]

I think it's irrelevant to point out the last fatality was 16 years ago and wasn't attributed to drivers racing each other as such.

Well naturally you do... because it underminds your argument. Either drivers are dangereous or they are not... it is sad that people like your good self want to sanatise F1, what next divide tracks into fast and slow lanes and fit indicators to all cars...


I think this rule is stupid in the context of racing.... I'm all for such rules on public roads, but on a race track drivers need to be allowed to race.

Senna would have quit F1 rather than race with such restrictions...

[Daniel]

Well naturally you do... because it underminds your argument. Either drivers are dangereous or they are not... it is sad that people like your good self want to sanatise F1, what next divide tracks into fast and slow lanes and fit indicators to all cars...


I think this rule is stupid in the context of racing.... I'm all for such rules on public roads, but on a race track drivers need to be allowed to race.

Senna would have quit F1 rather than race with such restrictions...

Not to be funny but if you're going to accuse me of something I've said I don't want to do then spell it right! It's sanitise!

Not to be funny and I appreciate the apparent stupidity of my statement but is Senna actually the sort of driver we want in this day and age? A driver who rather clearly took someone out on purpose?

[ArrowsFA1]

I'm all for racing. But some of the drivers have become too cocky IMHO and seem to think that because Senna's death was over a decade and a half ago that it's not going to happen to them because todays cars are so safe.
I think there's an element of that. I recently read again about Senna visiting the scene of Roland Ratzenberger's accident, and that Sid Watkins noted how shocked and upset he was in part because Senna had never witnessed anything like that in his F1 career.

Rubens Barrichello and Michael Schumacher were also at Imola that weekend so they, more than anyone else on the grid, know what can happen and that makes Schumacher's actions even more deplorable IMHO.

One driver killing or seriously injuring another driver would be seriously bad for the sport.
Absolutely, which is the main reason I think the drivers themselves should take more of a lead when it comes to driving standards rather than relying on the FIA.

[Cooper_S]

Not to be funny but if you're going to accuse me of something I've said I don't want to do then spell it right! It's sanitise!

Not to be funny and I appreciate the apparent stupidity of my statement but is Senna actually the sort of driver we want in this day and age? A driver who rather clearly took someone out on purpose?

Q.E.D.

[Daniel]

Q.E.D.
Ummmm you've proved nothing? Are you saying that we do want people like Senna who are happy to go out and cause crashes 100% on purpose? :confused:

[Daniel]

I think there's an element of that. I recently read again about Senna visiting the scene of Roland Ratzenberger's accident, and that Sid Watkins noted how shocked and upset he was in part because Senna had never witnessed anything like that in his F1 career.

Rubens Barrichello and Michael Schumacher were also at Imola that weekend so they, more than anyone else on the grid, know what can happen and that makes Schumacher's actions even more deplorable IMHO.

Absolutely, which is the main reason I think the drivers themselves should take more of a lead when it comes to driving standards rather than relying on the FIA.

Definitely. I think what Schumacher did was silly but at least he apologised after the incident. Webber for instance didn't apologise after the incident with Heikki which although more dangerous for Mark was still not acceptable in any way shape or form. What if Mark had killed himself or gone over a wall and killed marshals or spectators?

People seem to forget incidents like Graham Beveridge's death in Australia in 2001 because he wasn't a driver. Everything should be done to lower the chances of that sort of thing happening again and that goes from track design to crash barriers to deterring drivers as much as possible from having collisions.

[ArrowsFA1]

Definitely. I think what Schumacher did was silly but at least he apologised after the incident.
I don't think "silly" covers it but apart from that (I'm sure there's a thread devoted to the incident!) I was trying to make the point that drivers like Michael & Rubens have the knowledge and experience that could help improve driving standards, not lower them, and that could mean that the FIA do not need to step in with yet more regulations.

[Daniel]

I don't think "silly" covers it but apart from that (I'm sure there's a thread devoted to the incident!) I was trying to make the point that drivers like Michael & Rubens have the knowledge and experience that could help improve driving standards, not lower them, and that could mean that the FIA do not need to step in with yet more regulations.
But Michael still did what he did even though he was driving at the time of Senna and Ratzenberger so that somewhat proves my point.

I get what you're saying of course but I think the drivers have always seen the rather weak penalties as an excuse to give it a go as usually you can take a rival out and generally not loose too much as a grid penalty can usually be offset with a good pit strategy.

[Hawkmoon]

Webber for instance didn't apologise after the incident with Heikki which although more dangerous for Mark was still not acceptable in any way shape or form. What if Mark had killed himself or gone over a wall and killed marshals or spectators?

Webber made a mistake by mis-judging his closing speed on Kovalainen. In no way, shape or form can that incident be compared to Schmuacher pushing Barrichello into the pit wall.

Motor racing is dangerous. These guys know exaclty what they are getting into and the FIA has done huge amounts of work to make the cars and tracks safer. I don't think these new driving standards rules are sensible or necessary.

Short of running into the opposing car I think drivers should be able to do whatever they can to stop their rival from getting past. In my mind there's no such thing as blocking. It's up to the driver behind to find a way through.

[Cooper_S]

Look away Daniel this kind of stuff is clearly NOT for you.





http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b165/bmw_modeller/th_RealF1GilesVilleneuve.jpg (http://s19.photobucket.com/albums/b165/bmw_modeller/?action=view&current=RealF1GilesVilleneuve.mp4)

[ArrowsFA1]

I think the drivers have always seen the rather weak penalties as an excuse to give it a go as usually you can take a rival out and generally not loose too much as a grid penalty can usually be offset with a good pit strategy.
True. Drivers, like the teams, will always test the limits of the regulations. However, in much the same way as FOTA has brought a degree of cooperation among the teams that did not exist before I think the drivers, via the GPDA, need to take on a greater role in policing their own driving standards.

The FIA introducing more and more regulations telling drivers what they can and cannot do is not the way forward IMHO.

[SGWilko]

is Senna actually the sort of driver we want in this day and age?

You know, it's funny how Senna is always cited in such situations.

He was certainly no saint. But what he was, was the closest thing you will get to a 'perfect' race driver in terms of talent, racecraft, mechanical and technical understanding and compassion.

You have to look at his contretemps with Prost in Suzuka without the blinkers on. Consider why he felt he 'had' to do what he did because of the bloody mindedness of the then FIA head.....

Don't go knocking Senna when others have come along since and driven much, much worse. And shame on the FIA for not having the backbone to stamp it out before it was allowed become acceptable.......

[Daniel]

No one is saying that we can't have close racing or indeed a little bit of contact, just that there's a difference between banging wheels and knocking your opponents wheels off.

[BDunnell]

He was certainly no saint. But what he was, was the closest thing you will get to a 'perfect' race driver in terms of talent, racecraft, mechanical and technical understanding and compassion.

Closer than Fangio or Clark?

[SGWilko]

Closer than Fangio or Clark?

Of his era.......

[Rusty Spanner]

I've got mixed feelings about this. There are already existing rules that cover driving standards but the issue has been the inconsistent application of those rules and the differing penalties applied at different times. Creating more rules does not solve that issue.

Have the rules really changed or have they just expanded the penalties available to the stewards for dangerous driving? Not sure.

Anyway I basically agree with you the problem hasn't been that dangerous driving was allowed because it wasn't. The stewards often didn't have the appropriate experience or qualifications to make the judgement. At least now there is an Ex driver advising the stewards and hopefully that will continue to improve things in the future.

[ArrowsFA1]

At least now there is an Ex driver advising the stewards and hopefully that will continue to improve things in the future.
Agreed, and their introduction received widespread support this year.

[Cooper_S]

Monaco aside... they passed unnoticed

[Daniel]

I quite agree and this pretty much sums up this thread.

My original point was in relation to the stance that 'unsporting behaviour' could lead to a driver being banned for a race. We've had a recent history of stewards making harsh decisions one week, and ignoring them the next which is unacceptable even if occassionally it favours our favourite driver. I think if drivers are banned, it has to be pretty serious and in the last few years the only situations where I would condone a driver being banned for any period of time were Oz 2009 where Lewis lied to the stewards, and last season with Schumacher forcing Ruben's too close to the pit wall. Both situations were different as one was cheating, and the other was putting a drivers life in danger, but both worthy of such a penalty IMO.

I just don't want a 'ban' being a regular thing which ultimately denies the fans a great race if top drivers are missing. Since Todt has been in charge I do feel the standard of stewarding has been raised and the guest, ex driver stewards have been a relative success IMO. I just hope it stays that way, and the murky side of the FIA doesn't abuse this power. :)

I more or less agree with you. I'm not suggesting that this develops into Football where one person falls over and feigns death to get the other guy red carded. I'm simply saying that the penalties should be severe when there is a serious incident. At the moment it seems like you could just intentionally drive into someone at full speed whilst they're braking for a corner and get away with a 10 place grid drop. Of course no one's going to do that but it illustrates my point.

Should the penalty for this -> http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8875370.stm just be a 10 place grid drop? For a lot of drivers in top teams a 10 place grid drop can be easily offset by a different race strategy.

People like Cooper S seem to somehow think that I somehow don't want to see decent duels like the one between Villeneuve and Arnoux and Button and Hamilton this year, it's not that at all! My main complaint with F1 is that there isn't enough of this and I want more racing, but I think there should be consequences when someone does get it stupidly wrong.

This argument is like saying that someone who doesn't agree with the war in Iraq is anti-American because those Taliban types are anti-American so they must be too. Can we try and keep the debate to what people actually say rather than what we think they're saying or indeed what we want to hear them saying. Going from me saying that incidents like Webber and Vettel coming together, Schumacher squeezing Rubens and Webber using Heikki as a launching ramp SHOULDN'T be allowed to happen unpenalised (in relative terms) and that Button and Lewis in Turkey were a good example of how it's done to saying that I don't want to see racing like the epic battle between Arnoux and Villeneuve is a big jump to say the least!!!!!!

Personally I think a ban would have been harsh on Lewis and McLaren, what they did was stupid to say the least but I think it was just an honest mistake which ended up developing into a lie that never really needed to. I don't think what took place on the track was done in a conscious effort to cheat. I love to criticise Hamilton so I'd like to think that this says something about how small an issue that incident was.

[Easy Drifter]

It is easy to be critical of a driver when a manuever goes wrong. Drivers rarely intend to hit someone, especially at high speed. There are exceptions like TGF and Ruebens. TGF expected Ruebens to fold as he would have when they were both Ferrari drivers.
The thing is once a driver has committed to make a move it is almost always too late to back out of it if it is going wrong. There is not time plus you are on the extreme edge. This is something former drivers understand.
In my nine years of racing I only hit people twice, both at slow corners. One was a car that should have been lapping me and I was trying to pass. I was totally under him and he just took his normal line. I couldn't stop. He was so slow he didn't even know he had been hit and I broke my nosecone.
The other time I did a banzai passing move under braking
on a car of equal performance. We touched but just. Niether car had marks but I took his rear deck off!
Both were in pro races.
Had a few close calls. Almost hit George Follmer's Lola. Turns out I was faster in a slow corner. Then we hit the straight !!!!!!!!! :eek: :D

[Mia 01]

I like the new rules against unfair drivers.

And, no racing in the pitlane will be permitted, hear hear Lewis and Alonslo.

[ArrowsFA1]

The thing is once a driver has committed to make a move it is almost always too late to back out of it if it is going wrong. There is not time plus you are on the extreme edge. This is something former drivers understand.
Good to have a racers perspective, and hopefully this is where the drivers on the stewards panel will continue to be able to help.
From an armchair I think there are two other things to consider.
I know it's an often cited example but Arnoux v Villeneuve showed two drivers on the edge and committed, but at the same time they showed each other respect and gave each other racing room. Their first intent wasnt to block, but to race.
Also there is the fact that the current cars could have been designed to prevent overtaking. Until that is addressed effectively, and I don't mean with gimmicks like adjustable wings and KERS, there will always be a greater likelihood of incidents.

[Tazio]

Good to have a racers perspective, and hopefully this is where the drivers on the stewards panel will continue to be able to help.
From an armchair I think there are two other things to consider.
I know it's an often cited example but Arnoux v Villeneuve showed two drivers on the edge and committed, but at the same time they showed each other respect and gave each other racing room. Their first intent wasnt to block, but to race.
Also there is the fact that the current cars could have been designed to prevent overtaking. Until that is addressed effectively, and I don't mean with gimmicks like adjustable wings and KERS, there will always be a greater likelihood of incidents.And more recently the "riding mower" incident on the last lap between Kubinski, and Massa, contesting second place. For the last 1/4 of that lap they pushed each other on and off the track, and, grass. RK did most the pushing (defending) and Massa spent as much time on the grass as he did the track. Massa was really game, and kept his foot in it, but could not complete the pass, and only got a podium for it.
2008, or '07. I can’t remember the track but I think it was a little damp, and the grass was wet.