Mark W vs Williams

[seppefan]

Will Mark W in the Red Bull beat Williams over the year ?

[ioan]

Comparing apples and oranges again. :rolleyes:

[seppefan]

Comparing apples and oranges again. :rolleyes:

Well thanks for that ! What does it mean and do you have an answer to the question please.

[RJL25]

Well, williams will have two cars in each GP, Webber will only have one car, a touch unfair on mark isn't it? The point ioan, and now I am trying to make is that you are trying to compare a team, to a driver, apples, to an orange

A far better question would be who will be better, williams, or webbo's new team red bull racing, as the battle between those two will, on the surface atleast, show whether his decision to switch teams was a good one or not, although it does ignore the fact that Mark's problems at williams wasn't just the performance of the car, but anyway i'll play along:

Williams will start the year stronger then williams as they have come to terms with their new car much better then red bull has. The main reason for this is because the new williams, in concept atleast is quite similar to last years model whereas with red bull its a clean sheet design and therefore they have more work to do in getting up to speed with the new design.

HOWEVER none of this will stop williams from doing their now traditional mid year stumble and end the year much much MUCH less competitive as they started as they seem to lack the ability to keep pace with their rivals over the course of the season. Red Bull on the other hand will only get stronger as the year goes on, especially with the brilliance of adrien newey pulling th strings.

Red Bull will therefore finnish higher in the constructors world championship then williams, vindicating Webbers decision. However in reality it doesn't really matter, all that matters is that the red bull is competitive enough for Mark to show if he still has it as a driver, and if he can do that i am 99% sure he will be driving for Renault in 2008. Marks merely in a Renault holding pattern right now - note.1 webbers 1 year deal with RBR, note.2 fisi's renault contract expiring next season, note.3 flavio briatore pulling all the strings

[Heidfeldrulez]

I belive what the question means to ask is wheather it was the right descision to leave Williams for Red Bull. And the answer is: It did seem so at that time and it does not now :D For sure winter testing went way better for Williams than it did for Red Bull, fact of a matter, Rosberg recorded the fastest lap of the winter in Barcelona (also, the fastest ever lap on the new Bridgestone spec) so if winter tests are anything to go with, Mark made the wrong desicion.

on the other hand its hard to belive that a 100% Newey car can be that much of a dog for a whole season, sooner or later I expect it to surprise and fly, i honestly do.

[RJL25]

on the other hand its hard to belive that a 100% Newey car can be that much of a dog for a whole season, sooner or later I expect it to surprise and fly, i honestly do.

bingo - it was only a few years ago (2004?) that a mid season "update" turned an absolute dog of a newey designed mclaren into a race winner in the very first race in which the updated chassis was used (silverstone i think it was). No one is better at identifying a cars shortcomings and quickly fixing them then Adrien Newey, there is no way that the RB3 is a dog, it just isn't "fettled" properly yet

[F1boat]

Actually the updated Mclaren took points in its firts race (FRench GP) and Pole and podium in its second.
About the topic, I think that Williams and RBR might be equal perfromace-wise.

[jens]

Maybe a similar scenario to last year? Williams went ahead at the start of the season, but in midseason RBR caught them and went slightly ahead. So they finished - RBR a bit ahead of Williams.

[Ari]

Well, williams will have two cars in each GP, Webber will only have one car, a touch unfair on mark isn't it? The point ioan, and now I am trying to make is that you are trying to compare a team, to a driver, apples, to an orange

A far better question would be who will be better, williams, or webbo's new team red bull racing, as the battle between those two will, on the surface atleast, show whether his decision to switch teams was a good one or not, although it does ignore the fact that Mark's problems at williams wasn't just the performance of the car, but anyway i'll play along:

Williams will start the year stronger then williams as they have come to terms with their new car much better then red bull has. The main reason for this is because the new williams, in concept atleast is quite similar to last years model whereas with red bull its a clean sheet design and therefore they have more work to do in getting up to speed with the new design.

HOWEVER none of this will stop williams from doing their now traditional mid year stumble and end the year much much MUCH less competitive as they started as they seem to lack the ability to keep pace with their rivals over the course of the season. Red Bull on the other hand will only get stronger as the year goes on, especially with the brilliance of adrien newey pulling th strings.

Red Bull will therefore finnish higher in the constructors world championship then williams, vindicating Webbers decision. However in reality it doesn't really matter, all that matters is that the red bull is competitive enough for Mark to show if he still has it as a driver, and if he can do that i am 99% sure he will be driving for Renault in 2008. Marks merely in a Renault holding pattern right now - note.1 webbers 1 year deal with RBR, note.2 fisi's renault contract expiring next season, note.3 flavio briatore pulling all the strings


That's actually a very good post!

Oh, except where you compare Williams to Williams... but we'll let that one go through to the keeper! ;)

The thing to note when discussing whether Webber has made the right move here is that a move to the pacecar would have been a wise one for Webber! Why? Because it was more likely to finish a race last year than a Williams!!! Webber didn't choose to move from Williams, in the end he RAN.

If he'd only done it earlier he may have found himself in the seat of a Renault this year..... before the bumshuffle started that is.

RJL25.. indeed true that he is simply being sized for Renault at present, I'm only hoping he gets there while they're still on top. Would be a drag for him to get there once things start travelling downhill.

[Ari]

on the other hand its hard to belive that a 100% Newey car can be that much of a dog for a whole season, sooner or later I expect it to surprise and fly, i honestly do.


Hit the nail on the head. The new car is just that... new... shiny new. Needs proper testing and a lot more time. The aero is barely bolted on as well! Im confident the newey machines (yes, all 4 of them!!) will start running around very confidently mid-season.

[AJP]

Hit the nail on the head. The new car is just that... new... shiny new. Needs proper testing and a lot more time. The aero is barely bolted on as well! Im confident the newey machines (yes, all 4 of them!!) will start running around very confidently mid-season.

I think it may well be after just a few races...
lets hope anyway...
I'm reasonably confident that the Newey designed car can and will steal a few points from the bigger teams...

[raikk]

actually a good question...It seems pretty close we will have to see..

[MS_mayur]

From testing so far, it doesn't seem close to me. Williams are better both on pace and reliablity. IMO, it seems close only because we are banking on Newey to turn things around.

[Hawkmoon]

on the other hand its hard to belive that a 100% Newey car can be that much of a dog for a whole season, sooner or later I expect it to surprise and fly, i honestly do.

Yeah, because the MP4-18 was such a wonderful car!

Oh, wait a minute, it was so bloody fragile and problematic that McLaren raced a year old car in it's place!

Newey hasn't produced a championship winning car since the '99 McLaren and has only produced two cars (the 2000 and 2005 McLarens) that even came close to winning a title since.

Newey was arguably the best in the business. I'm not so sure he still is. Besides, designing a Grand Prix car is a team game these days and if Newey doesn't have a good team around him he's not going to be able to produce the goods.

I think Webber made the right choice to leave Williams at the time but I don't think Red Bull was necessarily the best option. Of course, it was probably his only option after Flavio wouldn't put him the Renault. Time will tell I suppose.

[webliams]

I believe that red bull doesn’t have the facility/technology to be able to test or developed equipment like all the other top teams. I believe newey and red bull are using technology/machinery or even software that isn't as advanced as all the teams.

if red bull are in it for the long run, they should start getting sponsors on board and start putting money into machinery, software and equipment. There budget is small compared to others. maybe newey had limited resourse which could reflect there recent proformance in testing, i hope it's not the case though.

i don't know it as a fact, it's only my opinion.

[janneppi]

However in reality it doesn't really matter, all that matters is that the red bull is competitive enough for Mark to show if he still has it as a driver, and if he can do that i am 99% sure he will be driving for Renault in 2008. Marks merely in a Renault holding pattern right now - note.1 webbers 1 year deal with RBR, note.2 fisi's renault contract expiring next season, note.3 flavio briatore pulling all the strings
Is there any basis for this, or is it just a expectations wrapped in hope? :)
Wasn't Webber supposed to get the seat already for this year?

[Ranger]

I won't predict a cracking year for Webber, but with Williams I think they will simply face the same thing as they did last year, start well enough, and a lack of development money will send them down the sheets. With all teams on the same tyres, I wouldn't be expecting any rabbit-out-of-the-hat performances like Monaco or Hockenheim from Webber or Williams this year, either.

So I'm inclined to think that Webber in the RBR will beat the two Williams drivers come season's end. Of course, the RB3 ain't any spring chicken at the moment either, so I'll wait and see.

[RJL25]

Is there any basis for this, or is it just a expectations wrapped in hope? :)
Wasn't Webber supposed to get the seat already for this year?

It's what is known as "inside mail", same as how speculation that kimi raikonen was going to ferrari was known as "inside mail" as early as 2004.

Translation - ofcourse its speculation, but its very strong speculation which many people believe to be the truth (and no not just australian journilists either!)

[trumperZ06]

;) Many of us hope & expect Webber to do well with Red Bull... and if he performs this year... we look forward to seeing him with Renault.

:dozey: Comparing team Williams to Red Bull shows how quickly Williams fortunes have fallen. Frank William's had one of the top three teams for years... now many are just hoping they finish ahead of Red Bull, Toyota, BMW, and Honda.

These teams are far behind the top three... Ferrari, McLaren, and Renault. IMO... Williams is likely to trail both BMW and Honda as well. Will Williams be able to regain their promience in Formula 1, not likely, but time will tell.

:s mokin: Trumper

[jens]

Everyone is getting ready for the season with their own methods. :s mokin:

http://images.gpupdate.net/large/69758.jpg

[Hawkmoon]

Great picture jens! :D :up:

[AJP]

very funny photo....

I can garauntee the photographer will loose his press pass over this for releasing it ...

wooops...

[truefan72]

it seems Mark left the team a year early, just like Alonso who would have probably won a 3rd straight title if he had stayed.

[davidalbert]

Mark has had a history of making bad team choices but i do think that Alonso has made a good move as he is trying to show that it is his talent and not just the car. By the look of practice Fisi is a bit of the pace and looks only a mid top ten contender. (Having said that then Alonso would probable win as he is so much quicker than Fisi.)

[jens]

Webber has been quick at his home event as expected - clearly better than DC and in good position to score points.

Red Bull managed to outclass Williams this time, but probably European season is a better indicator whether RBR manages to maintain that form or not.

[F1boat]

I think that if RBR outclasses Williams in Rd. 1, the gap is only going to increase in future races...

[AJP]

Mark has always been a great qualifier in any given car...

lets hope his new car can keep the pace over a race distance...

fingers crossed...

[F1boat]

Mark has always been a great qualifier in any given car...

lets hope his new car can keep the pace over a race distance...

fingers crossed...

He is in a Renault-powered car, after all

[Stig]

I think we can hope that, given the Renault engine, hopefully the fantastic "traction control" that gives the factory Renaults great starts came with the package.

[seppefan]

First blood to MArk, fantastic quali. Now the race, will the car get to the finish.....

[tassiedevilAB]

I went there yesterday & i can say that the red bull cars sound fantastic & if it is a typical Melbourne race there is going to be crashes & attrition, if he can keep the car in one piece i am predicting a top5 0r top3, he did a fantastic job in getting 7th in a car that had done hardly any hot weather testing & his gearbox stuffed up on Friday & he lost all that time!

Go Webber!

[ATF]

Why didn't he go to Renault this year? He surely would have been better than fisi or did renault want to keep some consistency in the team?

[jens]

RBR was quite awful in race conditions. That high quali position came purely on Mark's wonderful speed on his home soil and quali pace. And the car even wasn't among the heaviest.

[F1boat]

what happened to him in the pitlane? it looked like some invisible giant kicked the car...

[wmcot]

what happened to him in the pitlane? it looked like some invisible giant kicked the car...

Has anyone heard an explanation of his pitlane spin???? Reminds me of his race at Malaysia in the Jag - Great Qualifying position and then driving backwards through the field during the race.

Wit his pitlane spin and DC's flight over Wurz, perhaps the RBR drivers are having "senior moments!"

[Ari]

In short Webbers race was ruined when the team had problems with the fuel flap opening and not closing prorperly. This caused them to lose some 40 seconds during the first pit stop. After that, the aero was majorly effected on the rear wing due to the fuel flap being open. This cost a couple seconds per lap.... this Webber going nowhere after stop1.

Also, Webber was having major problems with the throttle sticking which is why he had the spin coming into pits. Personally I felt the spin was driver errror as he got the rears on the glass on pit entry.

BUT... in short, we're probably going to have to wait a litttle while yet to answer the MW vs Williams question.

[seppefan]

Ok so end of Race 1 and it is Williams 1 Webber 0. Seems unfair and it is 2 against 1 but the real question is what if Mark at stayed ( and not slagged Williams off in the meantime )

[jens]

Mark Webber as a car developer

As there has been so much discussion whether Toyota's form is their drivers' fault, then not to make those discussions too boring and not criticize only the same drivers all the time, then it's about time to discuss about others and put them some responsibility as well. We have some very clear patterns:

2003-2004 Jaguar, got worse, which ended in selling the team. A year later under the name RBR, when Webber was not driving for them any more, the team was already better.
2005-2006 Williams got worse and worse and now - after the departure of Webber - they have got better.
2007 RBR has signed Webber and even with Newey they have shown no signs of progress compared to last year.

If one wants and has a good will, then he can get a lot of material for talking about Webber's abilities at that area.

P.S. That is not my opinion that Webber is a mediocre car developer. Actually I don't have any opinion about how good or bad car developer Mark is. But I raised the question to you for discussion and analyzing just because I haven't noticed that this aspect has ever been discussed! So let's try to take things from every view angle.