Student Riots

[Bolton Midnight]

Just wanted to congratulate them on achieving sweet FA, no change exactly as you were - well apart from a huge bill for the taxpayer to repair all the damage they did and the policing bill.

Some of the placards were incorrectly spelt FFS

Must be Media Students or similar to be so witless and ineffective.

Glad common sense and the coalition won through though, is a far fairer system than the one Labour introduced.

[Mark]

It's also the day the Liberal Democrats died.

[ArrowsFA1]

I have been pleased to see that present and future students are not so apathetic about politics and their future that they sit back and do nothing.

This issue is clearly something that angered many and they have every right to protest and make their feelings known to the politicians who come up with these ideas. In a democracy people have the right to protest when they object to something, and for too long politics has seemed irrelevant to too many.

Having said that I certainly don't condone the actions of the minority. As is often the case there are those who have little or no interest in the cause itself and unfortunately, as a result, the issue gets lost among the headlines. Just look at the Daily Mail (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/index.html) today - "baying tuition fees mob" attack the royals, "anarchists", "young thugs" are the three headlines about yesterday's events. To the Mail's credit (did I really say that :eek: ) their comment page (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1337331/Little-honour-ignoble-compromise.html) does give their view of the issues...if anyone cares to read that far.

I was very fortunate not to be saddled with thousands of pounds of debt when I left university, but I have sympathy with those who are and will be in the future and support their right to protest.

[Mark]

I bet the Tories are laughing this morning, they've screwed over future generations and all the headlines are about riots instead.

[ArrowsFA1]

It was two years into Margaret Thatcher's goverment before people took their opposition to the streets. This government have beaten that achievement by some considerable margin.

[Bezza]

Whether the student tuition fee increase is correct or not, there is no excuse for the level of animosity and violence handed out by the students towards police, buildings and unbelievably Prince Charles and Camilla! Since when are they anything to do with this situation - why attack them? Their can be only two reasons for this:

1) The students protesting are so stupid to attack Prince Charles that aren't clever enough to go university anyway, so they may as well save all their money completely.

2) A vast majority of the protestors having nothing better to do and are simply causing uproar for the sake of it, having a convenient excuse to act like yobs and idiots. Are they all even students? Surely they should be in lectures and seminars during the week?

I went to university and really enjoyed it, three good years of my life 2003-2006 and set me up for life.

[Daniel]

Whether the student tuition fee increase is correct or not, there is no excuse for the level of animosity and violence handed out by the students towards police, buildings and unbelievably Prince Charles and Camilla! Since when are they anything to do with this situation - why attack them? Their can be only two reasons for this:

1) The students protesting are so stupid to attack Prince Charles that aren't clever enough to go university anyway, so they may as well save all their money completely.

2) A vast majority of the protestors having nothing better to do and are simply causing uproar for the sake of it, having a convenient excuse to act like yobs and idiots. Are they all even students? Surely they should be in lectures and seminars during the week?

I went to university and really enjoyed it, three good years of my life 2003-2006 and set me up for life.

I agree.

The protest was hijacked by people who simply wanted to riot.

I was annoyed last night when our Sky+ box reset itself, I was wanting to see some heads getting cracked :(

[AndySpeed]

I'm annoyed by the media coverage actually, getting its quick fix of riots and outrage. Just this moment when searching for an article about the actual vote I had to dig on the BBC News website just to find it.

Too much of the protests were hijacked by people probably too stupid to make it into university in the first place. Of course they probably knew they were going to lose the battle against the coalition, so most likely just 'rioted' for the hell of it.

It's a shame really, as it just feels like the government is shifting national debt to the younger generation by cutting funding to unis and rising the fees. It doesn't directly affect me, but that doesn't take away the strength of feeling amongst me and many others in the university.

[Mark]

It's a shame really, as it just feels like the government is shifting national debt to the younger generation by cutting funding to unis and rising the fees. It doesn't directly affect me, but that doesn't take away the strength of feeling amongst me and many others in the university.

It's exactly what they are doing. Instead of education being funded by the state for the good of the country as a whole, they are making those who receive it pay. I thought as much would happen when tuition fees were brought in, in the first place.

The next thing will be asking for a contribution towards A-Levels...

[MrMetro]

In my opinion, too many people think they HAVE to go to University to be successful in life, which isn't true.

[AndySpeed]

In my opinion, too many people think they HAVE to go to University to be successful in life, which isn't true.

It depends what you want to do. If you want to go into business, make a bit of money, then no it's not required. It highlights why labour's target of 50% in university was ridiculous and misguided.

If you want to work in the environmental sector, potentially consultancy in later life or if you want to be a lawyer, a doctor, an engineer, then you do need to go to university.

I hope a lot of people protesting fall into the latter category.

[Bolton Midnight]

The new system is fairer than Labour's. But some dim folk clearly haven't actually read that far into it, they just let their anti Tory feelings run riot and think that some government heavy will turn up on their door step the day they graduate demanding 40k be paid there and then.

And why wasn't there anywhere near as much protest/unrest when Labour introduced fees in the first place?

Nope a complete loss for the students they have proved themselves useless and the coalition has won a major battle and can only grow stronger from this victory.

Because Labour wasted all the money there just isn't the fund available for the state/taxpayers to carry on paying for all these morons to do Media Studies instead of getting a job in a factory putting pompoms on slippers. And talking of factory workers, why do these imbeciles feel that the factory workers should pay for them to doss around for 3 years?

[Bolton Midnight]

I hope a lot of people protesting fall into the latter category.

Judging by their appearance, inability to string a coherent sentence together I very much doubt it - they are Mickey Mouse degree types, exactly the types that bring little if no real benefit to the country - so let them pay for their pointless degrees.

[schmenke]

Our local CBC news aired footage of the riots last night on the telly, and I was intrigued that the common university student attire seemed to consist of balakavas these days :dozey:

[Drew]

The students should go on tour and riot across the country. Plymouth is a hole and really could do with a bit of a riot or a third world war.

[Retro Formula 1]

Mark. It seems you disagree with Students paying for the privilidge of a University Education.

Can I ask why?

[Bolton Midnight]

Rentamob standard attire

pretty much every organiser / activist in all of this is a card carrying member of the Labour party. Aaron Porter, NUS president, is even at the top of Labour's list of prospective parliamentary candidates, watching him on QT lastnight he has a face one would never tire of punching, he's a shoe in then.

[schmenke]

Mark. It seems you disagree with Students paying for the privilidge of a University Education.

Can I ask why?

skc, a higher education is not a privelage, but a necessity for an educated society. I'm 100% in favour of the taxpayer funding higher education as it results in a more productive society from which everyone benefits.

I can only extrapolate that the sales of balakava's would diminish with an educated society :dozey: .

(apologies Mark, the question was directed at you...).

[AndySpeed]

An economy needs to be balanced between manual labour/industry/manufacturing jobs and the higher service jobs that need a degree.

Labour blurred the distinctions too much and people without enough intelligence thought they could spend taxpayers money getting a degree and go off into a cushty world of work with their newfound honours. It's right that it needs to change - on a side note, in my view a polytechnic should remain just that - there's no need to call it a "new university".

That said, too many people's political views just follow in the lines of their parents and they don't think about their own values.

To illustrate one of my points perhaps a case study will help.

Chap A, at 18 years old, decides not to go to university and works as a manager in a respectable medium-size business. He earns £18,000 a year and by the time he is 25 has earned £126,000 (before tax).

Chap B decides to go to university to study engineering and enrolls on a 4 year degree at a top ten university. He doesn't earn any significant money until he is 22, at which point he is £52,000 in debt due to the cost of his education and associated living costs. He then lands a graduate job with an engineering consultancy and starts at £24,000. He has to begin to pay off his loan and is initially only making £6k more than his non-uni counterpart, who of course may even have moved up the ladder. 9% of all his earnings will go into paying back his loan, so he'll only be edging closer to the earnings point of Chap A at a rate of roughly £5400 a year.

Also "above £41,000, graduates will repay at the maximum, rate of RPI plus 3%."

But who's the one paying off the national debt the most?! And, crucially, is it fair or will it just put people off pursuing these jobs through university experience?

[Retro Formula 1]

skc, a higher education is not a privelage, but a necessity for an educated society. I'm 100% in favour of the taxpayer funding higher education as it results in a more productive society from which everyone benefits.

I can only extrapolate that the sales of balakava's would diminish with an educated society :dozey: .

(apologies Mark, the question was directed at you...).


A secondary education is a right and a necessity that benefits all children so is paid for by the taxpayer.

Further education is a choice that should be detirmined by a chosen career path.

If you want to be a Doctor, Solicitor, Scientist etc, go to university and pay back some of the cost of your education from the increased salary you receive from your education.

If you want to do teaching, nursing, social work etc, go to University and if you don't earn enough, us tax payers will pay for your education if you earn a couple of grand below the national average wage and if you earn more, pay back an amount that is affordable for a period and the rest is written off.

It's cheaper than the Labour scheme, it protects the lower paid, essential roles and recovers money from people benefitting from higher salaries. What's more, you don't pay a penny up front meaning it's open to every student that wants to go to University regardless of background while making more provision for people from poorer backgrounds.

The only people that will lose out is people that go on silly courses (what used to be a drinking degree) who will not be funded by the Tax payer and people like me with 3 Children that will cost me a bloody fortune at Uni. I personally want them to consider carefully whether they need to go rather than do it to avoid work for 3 years.

[Hazell B]

So far even the well behaved student protesters have shown themselves to be generally selfish, small minded individuals from what I've seen (and I watched News 24 solidly for about 4 hours yesterday to avoid Corrie and afternoon TV).

They claim higher education is their right. It isn't, only everything up to it is. They claim the police bullied them, but they were all told repeatedly not to be there in the first place but to stick to the planned route. They claimed a small minority did damage and that's what annoyed me most ....

.... what the hell is a "small" minority? If you stand behind thugs, the thugs get worse. If you don't try to stop them it's encouraging them to continue. From what I saw the minority was a good 20% of the crowd at the edges of the square ..... with very few in the area's centre.

In pub fights people try and stop others carrying on, and it works well over half the time. I know, I was a barmaid for 18 years. In demo's ditto. I know, I've been on plenty over the years (including the largest ever, a Fox Hunting one).

So why were these so-called educated people cheering and egging on the thug element? Hardly in a minority, either.

The way those police horses were attacked (after the crowd had been repeatedly warned horses would be used in that way) made me sick. I'm no fan of the police at all, but they were damned brave on the whole, especially the mounted officers.

I hope every one of those students, both quiet and thuggish, realise they will never be allowed to moan about their tax payments or pensions in the future now. They've made taxpayers and pensioners pay for their education and damage caused for quite long enough.

And I bet in the future they'll expect pay at a quid a year under the repayment cap, plus a backhander to make it up .......

[Bolton Midnight]

I know, I've been on plenty over the years (including the largest ever, a Fox Hunting one).

Ahh yes what a huge contrast between the two protests - one peaceful and non violent with decent folk taking to the streets vs. Labour's clueless lazy feckless rentamob.


A secondary education is a right and a necessity that benefits all children so is paid for by the taxpayer.

Further education is a choice that should be detirmined by a chosen career path.

If you want to be a Doctor, Solicitor, Scientist etc, go to university and pay back some of the cost of your education from the increased salary you receive from your education.

If you want to do teaching, nursing, social work etc, go to University and if you don't earn enough, us tax payers will pay for your education if you earn a couple of grand below the national average wage and if you earn more, pay back an amount that is affordable for a period and the rest is written off.

It's cheaper than the Labour scheme, it protects the lower paid, essential roles and recovers money from people benefitting from higher salaries. What's more, you don't pay a penny up front meaning it's open to every student that wants to go to University regardless of background while making more provision for people from poorer backgrounds.

The only people that will lose out is people that go on silly courses (what used to be a drinking degree) who will not be funded by the Tax payer and people like me with 3 Children that will cost me a bloody fortune at Uni. I personally want them to consider carefully whether they need to go rather than do it to avoid work for 3 years.

Exactly, well said.


skc, a higher education is not a privelage, but a necessity for an educated society. I'm 100% in favour of the taxpayer funding higher education as it results in a more productive society from which everyone benefits.



Mickey Mouse degrees serve no purpose whatsoever other than keeping tards off the unemployment figures.

[ArrowsFA1]

skc, who is to say which occupations should be valued more highly and so receive concessions when it comes to paying for an education?

Also, who decides which are "silly" courses and which are not?

Should students have the choice to study their strengths and interests as developed through their secondary education?

[BDunnell]

The new system is fairer than Labour's. But some dim folk clearly haven't actually read that far into it, they just let their anti Tory feelings run riot and think that some government heavy will turn up on their door step the day they graduate demanding 40k be paid there and then.

And why wasn't there anywhere near as much protest/unrest when Labour introduced fees in the first place?

Nope a complete loss for the students they have proved themselves useless and the coalition has won a major battle and can only grow stronger from this victory.

Because Labour wasted all the money there just isn't the fund available for the state/taxpayers to carry on paying for all these morons to do Media Studies instead of getting a job in a factory putting pompoms on slippers. And talking of factory workers, why do these imbeciles feel that the factory workers should pay for them to doss around for 3 years?

It was precisely the thought of people such as yourself, unable to attend university through lack of academic intelligence, having to pay for my higher education that got me out of bed and down the lecture theatre of a morning. It created a warm glow, you know.

[BDunnell]

So why were these so-called educated people cheering and egging on the thug element? Hardly in a minority, either.

Because educated people are not automatically civil; perhaps also because there is a widespread dislike of the police on the part of the more educated sections of society. And anger tends to boil over in such situations. The violence has undoubtedly been very counter-productive, but would the issue have achieved anywhere near the prominence it has done (or did until a car with two members of the Royal Family in it was set upon, which is apparently of greater importance than anything) had the demonstrations been boringly peaceful?



I hope every one of those students, both quiet and thuggish, realise they will never be allowed to moan about their tax payments or pensions in the future now. They've made taxpayers and pensioners pay for their education and damage caused for quite long enough.

Why 'for quite long enough'? Why the resentment about funding the education of others? I am proud to do so.

[BDunnell]

skc, who is to say which occupations should be valued more highly and so receive concessions when it comes to paying for an education?

Also, who decides which are "silly" courses and which are not?

Should students have the choice to study their strengths and interests as developed through their secondary education?

The root of the whole problem is, surely, secondary education rather than higher education. In my experience, academic standards (a factor almost entirely ignored by the politicians espousing an increase in fees, who seem to believe that 'social mobility' is the most important thing about going to university) in the traditional subjects at the traditional universities are just as high as they were when I was studying 10 years ago. Outside that, I have my doubts, yet it's precisely the traditional courses that are going to suffer most from funding cuts.

But there are far too many people entering the university system for it to be able to cope, and the reason is the lessening in standards of A-levels. Are the record A-level pass rates a result of A-level students becoming more intelligent? Surely not. This has had the dual effect of diminishing the achievements of the very many extremely intelligent people who do well at A-levels and overburdening the university system. Yet no politician seems to want to address this, for fear, no doubt, of offending public opinion and putting off potential voters. As long as this is not tackled, there will be a huge problem with higher education in the UK, because student numbers are just not sustainable.

[Bolton Midnight]

skc, who is to say which occupations should be valued more highly and so receive concessions when it comes to paying for an education?

Also, who decides which are "silly" courses and which are not?

Should students have the choice to study their strengths and interests as developed through their secondary education?

Okay how about these

Hairdressing-salon management — University of Derby
Fashion-and-lifestyle products — Southampton Solent University
Watersports science and development — University of Portsmouth
Sports-surfaces management — Glyndwr University
Contemporary circus and physical performance — Bath Spa University
Equestrian psychology — Glyndwr University
Cruise management — University of Plymouth
Surf science and technology — University of Plymouth
Pop-music performance — University of East London
Sexual-health studies — University of Central Lancashire

They can choose what to study yes, just as long as they don't expect the taxpayer to pick up the tab for their 3 years drinking.

[BDunnell]

Sexual-health studies — University of Central Lancashire

A far from stupid course, surely, given that sexual health is an important field of academic medical research?

[AndySpeed]

Can you back up those courses with number of students enrolled on each course Bolton Midnight?

Also, not one of those courses is from a reputable university. Lets not forget that the issue of tuition fee rising will affect those too.

[Bolton Midnight]

It was precisely the thought of people such as yourself, unable to attend university through lack of academic intelligence, having to pay for my higher education that got me out of bed and down the lecture theatre of a morning. It created a warm glow, you know.

That would make sense were it not for the small fact that I went to Uni and achieved a good vocational science/medical degree with zero unemployment.

Your bad (as seems to be the norm - feel free to insult me now as you usually do).

[Bolton Midnight]

Can you back up those courses with number of students enrolled on each course Bolton Midnight?

Also, not one of those courses is from a reputable university. Lets not forget that the issue of tuition fee rising will affect those too.

No just did a random search to find some Mickey Mouse degrees.

It is the rise in worthless courses which are bringing down the worthwhile courses. Only the cream should be going to Uni not all and sundry.

[BDunnell]

No just did a random search to find some Mickey Mouse degrees.

It is the rise in worthless courses which are bringing down the worthwhile courses. Only the cream should be going to Uni not all and sundry.

Would you, given your comment above stating that you went to university, call yourself 'the cream'?

[Bolton Midnight]

The root of the whole problem is, surely, secondary education rather than higher education. In my experience, academic standards (a factor almost entirely ignored by the politicians espousing an increase in fees, who seem to believe that 'social mobility' is the most important thing about going to university) in the traditional subjects at the traditional universities are just as high as they were when I was studying 10 years ago. Outside that, I have my doubts, yet it's precisely the traditional courses that are going to suffer most from funding cuts.

But there are far too many people entering the university system for it to be able to cope, and the reason is the lessening in standards of A-levels. Are the record A-level pass rates a result of A-level students becoming more intelligent? Surely not. This has had the dual effect of diminishing the achievements of the very many extremely intelligent people who do well at A-levels and overburdening the university system. Yet no politician seems to want to address this, for fear, no doubt, of offending public opinion and putting off potential voters. As long as this is not tackled, there will be a huge problem with higher education in the UK, because student numbers are just not sustainable.

Under Labour who of course promised Education Education Education

15 year old kids worldwide have been assessed for reading, maths and science skills

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/12/07/oecd_survey/

In 2000, we ranked 4th in science, 7th in reading and 8th in maths.

In 2010, we ranked 16th in science, 25th in reading and 28th in maths.

That is abysmal. We're failing the next generation. With skills becoming increasingly mobile, and people from around the world being able to do each other's jobs, we need our children to be able to compete with the best.

social mobility actually decreased under Labour, of course A level passes increased as they make the exams easier and easier every year to show education is safe in their hands.

A* GCSE pupils now would struggle to get c grade at O Level.

[BDunnell]

Your bad (as seems to be the norm - feel free to insult me now as you usually do).

Your use of the phrase 'your bad', which is not English, doesn't require me to add anything.

[Bolton Midnight]

Would you, given your comment above stating that you went to university, call yourself 'the cream'?

But of course, I went to a top public school and am a fully qualified medical professional rather than somebody who stomps about on a motor sport forum as if he owned the place and has some kind of chip on his shoulder.

Why is that?

Were you bullied at school, parents disliked you, bed wetter, bit of a failure in relationships, crap at sports or all of the above?

The world just doesn't need a million more media students. Get shut of the wasters and then the doctors, nurses, soldiers etc that do contribute to society wouldn't have to pay as much.

[BDunnell]

Under Labour who of course promised Education Education Education

15 year old kids worldwide have been assessed for reading, maths and science skills

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/12/07/oecd_survey/

In 2000, we ranked 4th in science, 7th in reading and 8th in maths.

In 2010, we ranked 16th in science, 25th in reading and 28th in maths.

That is abysmal. We're failing the next generation. With skills becoming increasingly mobile, and people from around the world being able to do each other's jobs, we need our children to be able to compete with the best.

social mobility actually decreased under Labour, of course A level passes increased as they make the exams easier and easier every year to show education is safe in their hands.

A* GCSE pupils now would struggle to get c grade at O Level.

This dreadful concept of social mobility has nothing to do with it. Intelligence, academic ability, knowledge and learning are the important attributes relating to getting in to university, one's motivation for studying and the quality of the course(s).

By the way, I am under no illusions that the A-levels I took in 1997 were easier than they would have been a decade earlier, but the regular comparisons that get made between exam papers of today and those of 50 or so years earlier miss the point completely, because there has to be a degree of adaptation to move with the times. And let's not think that everybody who ever got into university, especially the truly elite ones, in the past was deserving of their place in academic terms. Stephen Fry said that some of the most stupid people he's ever met were at Cambridge.

[Bolton Midnight]

Your use of the phrase 'your bad', which is not English, doesn't require me to add anything.

It was actually ironic, are you American?

[BDunnell]

But of course, I went to a top public school and am a fully qualified medical professional rather than somebody who stomps about on a motor sport forum as if he owned the place and has some kind of chip on his shoulder.

Which 'top public school' did you go to?

[BDunnell]

It was actually ironic, are you American?

Ironic? I thought it was merely your level.

[Daniel]

You are a medical professional? Wtf?

[donKey jote]

yep, one of the millions of medical professional smokers who whinge about pubs closing left right and center :laugh:

[donKey jote]

In 2000, we ranked 4th in science, 7th in reading and 8th in maths.

In 2010, we ranked 16th in science, 25th in reading and 28th in maths.

That is abysmal.

we have a similar problem in Germany... here a lot of it is "blamed" on immigrants :dozey:

[Bolton Midnight]

we have a similar problem in Germany... here a lot of it is "blamed" on immigrants :dozey:

From my experience a lot of the immigrant parents value education far more than the British parents.

If you drink & smoke less than your doctor then you're doing okay. Brother in Law is a GP and he drinks a hell of a lot more than I do, but he doesn't smoke have to say.

[ArrowsFA1]

Only the cream should be going to Uni not all and sundry.
"Only the cream..." :confused: "All and sundry." :confused:

Please define who, in your opinion, sits in each of your two groups.

Are you suggesting that only those from "a top public school" should be permitted to access a university education?

[AAReagles]

I have been pleased to see that present and future students are not so apathetic about politics and their future that they sit back and do nothing.

This issue is clearly something that angered many and they have every right to protest and make their feelings known to the politicians who come up with these ideas. In a democracy people have the right to protest when they object to something, and for too long politics has seemed irrelevant to too many.

:up:




.... The violence has undoubtedly been very counter-productive, but would the issue have achieved anywhere near the prominence it has done... had the demonstrations been boringly peaceful?

Unfortunately no. The problem of hostile demonstrations also stems from a complacency of the hierarchy to go about business as usual with little regard as to how public funds are spent, or misused rather. It wasn’t that long ago that the ‘Eat The Banks’ campaign took order by the masses, so I’m sure some folks still have that in mind, aggravating the situation even more. Add in an unpopular war and negligent practices by corporations mining/drilling for resources - causing damage to the environments, and you’ll find that you have a perfect recipe for civil unrest.

[ioan]

Just wanted to congratulate them on achieving sweet FA, no change exactly as you were - well apart from a huge bill for the taxpayer to repair all the damage they did and the policing bill.

Some of the placards were incorrectly spelt FFS

Must be Media Students or similar to be so witless and ineffective.

Glad common sense and the coalition won through though, is a far fairer system than the one Labour introduced.

What a load of rubbish.

Those who stand up for their rights have to be applauded not dissed by the so called society.

I can only pity those who think like you.

What are you going to do without students?
Who's going to research for new technologies? For new medication? Who's gonna give a spine to the society you are living in? Joe from the pub?!

Just for the info I believe that education should be free for all, not only available to the rich ones.
The lack of access to education will show in 10-15 years but then it will be too late.

[ioan]

I have been pleased to see that present and future students are not so apathetic about politics and their future that they sit back and do nothing.

This issue is clearly something that angered many and they have every right to protest and make their feelings known to the politicians who come up with these ideas. In a democracy people have the right to protest when they object to something, and for too long politics has seemed irrelevant to too many.

Exactly!

But I suppose Bolton Midnight knows little about 1968, and what it meant for everyone.

[ioan]

In my opinion, too many people think they HAVE to go to University to be successful in life, which isn't true.

You sure do not need to go to the university to become a plumber, but maybe some want to be doctors or engineers, which you can't without getting higher level education.

[ioan]

skc, a higher education is not a privelage, but a necessity for an educated society. I'm 100% in favour of the taxpayer funding higher education as it results in a more productive society from which everyone benefits.

I can only extrapolate that the sales of balakava's would diminish with an educated society :dozey: .

(apologies Mark, the question was directed at you...).

Cheers to this! :up:
Completely agree!

[AAReagles]

... Just for the info I believe that education should be free for all, not only available to the rich ones...

:up:

... and to those who live... well.... not "live", but are surviving in third world countries. That is of course if their leaders and/or customs permit them to.

[Bolton Midnight]

"Only the cream..." :confused: "All and sundry." :confused:

Please define who, in your opinion, sits in each of your two groups.

Are you suggesting that only those from "a top public school" should be permitted to access a university education?

As it used to be those with 8 or more O Levels (so that would be at least 10 A* nowadays)

3 good A levels in proper subjects

Doing vocational degrees that will lead to instant employment at a high salary - exactly like it used to be, before every kid seemed to think they had a god given right to waste time and money doing a worthless degree.

Not at all, I neither said that or implied it. Parental wealth should have no bearing on the subject - social mobility and all that - which the Coalition believes in unlike Labour.

[janvanvurpa]

Only the cream should be going to Uni not all and sundry.

Then how to you explain that you went to University?

(can you say cognitive dissonance?)

[ioan]

A secondary education is a right and a necessity that benefits all children so is paid for by the taxpayer.

Further education is a choice that should be detirmined by a chosen career path.

If you want to be a Doctor, Solicitor, Scientist etc, go to university and pay back some of the cost of your education from the increased salary you receive from your education.

If you want to do teaching, nursing, social work etc, go to University and if you don't earn enough, us tax payers will pay for your education if you earn a couple of grand below the national average wage and if you earn more, pay back an amount that is affordable for a period and the rest is written off.

Rubbish.
Your posts sounds like: If you are more intelligent than me than you better not expect me to pay for you to become even better and earn more than I do.

I know you will say I am wrong, but you're the one who put it black on white first of all.

[Bolton Midnight]

What a load of rubbish.

Those who stand up for their rights have to be applauded not dissed by the so called society.

I can only pity those who think like you.

What are you going to do without students?
Who's going to research for new technologies? For new medication? Who's gonna give a spine to the society you are living in? Joe from the pub?!

Just for the info I believe that education should be free for all, not only available to the rich ones.
The lack of access to education will show in 10-15 years but then it will be too late.

People that smash up the Supreme Court and cenotaph deserve a good kicking and nothing else - bring back the SPG.

If they had attacked Obama/Putin's car they would have been shot at.

These students aren't the ones who will find a cure for cancer or unearth a better alternative to petrol FFS these are the ones watching day time tv and then drinking all night whilst moaning about how poor they are before they drive home in their DBC.

[Drew]

Just for the info I believe that education should be free for all, not only available to the rich ones.
The lack of access to education will show in 10-15 years but then it will be too late.

The system in the UK is that they charge for university but you don't pay it back until you're earning at least £21,000. If most degrees are 3 years long it means most students will at the very least be in £27,000 worth of debt. Most people that graduate won't start earning £21,000 for quite a while, if ever. So realistically the government isn't going to get back most of the money it gives out. But hey, it sorts things out for the moment, so who gives a damn?

The worst thing is, this is only in England. Nobody seems to be interested in why English students seem to get screwed over whilst the Scottish get it for free. :rolleyes:

[ioan]

we have a similar problem in Germany... here a lot of it is "blamed" on immigrants :dozey:

It's the same everywhere.
It is always the poor and the immigrant at fault never the stupid politician who sits on his hands 90% of his term and decides to increase taxes as it is a measure that gives them more money to play with.

[BDunnell]

You sure do not need to go to the university to become a plumber, but maybe some want to be doctors or engineers, which you can't without getting higher level education.

Many would rightly argue that, in the past, being an engineer didn't require a degree. In many countries it doesn't, and a good technical training qualification that didn't come from a university is ranked very highly.

[BDunnell]

Doing vocational degrees that will lead to instant employment at a high salary - exactly like it used to be, before every kid seemed to think they had a god given right to waste time and money doing a worthless degree.

Your generalisation is quite appalling. 'Every kid'?

[BDunnell]

Further education is a choice that should be detirmined by a chosen career path.

So merely being academically gifted in subjects like history, a language or so on is insufficient? I detest the manner in which university is now viewed by many as a production line for industry, with learning for its own sake and that of pure knowledge now being viewed as an old-fashioned concept. But such is the way in which we are all expected to worship the private sector nowadays.

[ioan]

People that smash up the Supreme Court and cenotaph deserve a good kicking and nothing else - bring back the SPG.

Who told you those were students?
Every time there is a public manifestation like this, there will be extremist idiots who will take advantage in order to destroy some stuff without risking too much.

I do not believe that those who were there to ask for affordable access to Unis were the ones who were violent.
You are swallowing what the politicians and the mass media serve you without first filtering it.


If they had attacked Obama/Putin's car they would have been shot at.

No $hit, how do you know that?


These students aren't the ones who will find a cure for cancer or unearth a better alternative to petrol FFS these are the ones watching day time tv and then drinking all night whilst moaning about how poor they are before they drive home in their DBC.

You are again talking out of your rear and generalizing without intimate knowledge of the situation.

[Bolton Midnight]

Most people that graduate won't start earning £21,000 for quite a while, if ever. So realistically the government isn't going to get back most of the money it gives out. But hey, it sorts things out for the moment, so who gives a damn?

Begs the question, why go to Uni if you have no chance of landing a job once qualified?

Seems rather pointless well other than taking you off unemployment figures and allowing youths the chance to get drunk and laid for 3 years.

[BDunnell]

These students aren't the ones who will find a cure for cancer

Not that cancer, given your views on smoking, worries you.

[BDunnell]

It's the same everywhere.
It is always the poor and the immigrant at fault never the stupid politician who sits on his hands 90% of his term and decides to increase taxes as it is a measure that gives them more money to play with.

In the case of higher education, I would be very happy to pay more in tax in order to fund it properly.

[ioan]

Many would rightly argue that, in the past, being an engineer didn't require a degree. In many countries it doesn't, and a good technical training qualification that didn't come from a university is ranked very highly.

They can argue whatever they want.
Repairing something that has been designed by a real engineer does not make one an engineer.

Sadly nowadays everyone thinks they are an engineer after learning how to tighten a screw, I profoundly disagree.

An engineer is the guy who you give a well defined scope statement and he delivers a well researched and thought product/solution.

[ioan]

In the case of higher education, I would be very happy to pay more in tax in order to fund it properly.

Me too, sadly the money will be certainly used to save another failing bank instead of securing the future of the society.

[ioan]

So merely being academically gifted in subjects like history, a language or so on is insufficient? I detest the manner in which university is now viewed by many as a production line for industry, with learning for its own sake and that of pure knowledge now being viewed as an old-fashioned concept. But such is the way in which we are all expected to worship the private sector nowadays.

:up: (and for the record I am an engineer working in the private sector)

[ioan]

:up:

... and to those who live... well.... not "live", but are surviving in third world countries. That is of course if their leaders and/or customs permit them to.

True.
The only way for the third world countries to evolve is through education. Sadly the powers to be do not have the interest to give the poor masses the knowledge they need to improve their own lives.

We live in a sad world, hidden in our shells where money should bring happiness.

[BDunnell]

They can argue whatever they want.
Repairing something that has been designed by a real engineer does not make one an engineer.

Sadly nowadays everyone thinks they are an engineer after learning how to tighten a screw, I profoundly disagree.

An engineer is the guy who you give a well defined scope statement and he delivers a well researched and thought product/solution.

I agree absolutely with you, but it is true that such training does not have to be provided by a university. Not everyone in Germany who has the title Dipl.-Ing. has gained the qualification from a university, yet said title is very well thought of.

[ArrowsFA1]

Begs the question, why go to Uni if you have no chance of landing a job once qualified.
Do you believe that a degree guarantees you a job?

[ioan]

I agree absolutely with you, but it is true that such training does not have to be provided by a university. Not everyone in Germany who has the title Dipl.-Ing. has gained the qualification from a university, yet said title is very well thought of.

I know, this is why I preferred France, where you can not be an engineer only because you have had a technical degree and than worked 5 years in an workshop, followed by a very basic examination (this is how it is done in Austria for Ing who want to become Dipl. Ing.).
It is very difficult to learn in a workshop the theory that resides behind the design of technological products.
I know people who became 'engineers' in that way and believe me while I am convinced that they can repair almost everything, I would never ever use something they designed if my life depended on it.

One should not be called Diplom Ingenieur if they chose a screw's size using a table in a catalog instead of calculating the size of the screw after having determined the forces that will act on said screw and the coefficient of security needed based on the circumstances in which that part will be used.

But hey, this thread isn't about this, sorry for derailing it. :)

[BDunnell]

I know, this is why I preferred France, where you can not be an engineer only because you have had a technical degree and than worked 5 years in an workshop.
It is very difficult to learn in a workshop the theory that resides behind the design of technological products.
I know people who became 'engineers' in that way and believe me while I am convinced that they can repair almost everything, I would never ever use something they designed if my life depended on it.

One should not be called Diplom Ingenieur if they chose a screw's size using a table in a catalog instead of calculating the size of the screw after having determined the forces that will act on said screw and the coefficient of security needed based on the circumstances in which that part will be used.

But hey, this thread isn't about this, sorry for derailing it. :)

It is in part about this, though, and it is an interesting topic. In the UK, many people would attend technical college rather than university, and came away perfectly well-qualified in their chosen field. Nowadays, I would imagine that most would probably get the same education at a university, probably to no greater a level and of no greater a standard. You are quite right to say that the higher-end aspects of engineering are best taught at universities; however, the same doesn't apply across the board. There is, I would contend, no need for so many people to graduate with a qualification called a degree from an institution called a university.

[ioan]

It is in part about this, though, and it is an interesting topic. In the UK, many people would attend technical college rather than university, and came away perfectly well-qualified in their chosen field. Nowadays, I would imagine that most would probably get the same education at a university, probably to no greater a level and of no greater a standard. You are quite right to say that the higher-end aspects of engineering are best taught at universities; however, the same doesn't apply across the board. There is, I would contend, no need for so many people to graduate with a qualification called a degree from an institution called a university.

I understand you point.
I believe that it is wrong that the term engineers has been expanded to cover about every technical (and not only) degree that one can dream about. And this brought us to the point where the engineering degree is not specific at all anymore and I can hardly think about any other degree that has been treated like this.
It is like if the universities felt that the term engineer is very very appealing to those who aspire to have a somewhat technical degree.
I believe that the engineering degree should have stayed for those who are in it for innovation in technology, while those who like to implement what engineers develop should have stayed with the technician nomenclature (this is how it is being done in France and I always thought it was right, I might be wrong though :) ).

I have been teaching at a University in France for 5 years, and I had students from engineering schools and technical colleges, and I must say that there is a difference between the ways they want to learn, there is also a difference between the ways they assimilate information and there is a difference between the way we bring them the knowledge they want to have.
Worth mentioning that every year around 10% of the students graduating from the technical college decided to continue their studies in an engineering school, which I have found to be a good way for them to become engineers once they got the taste of it.

As for too many people having university degrees, my way of doing it would be to allow everyone who wants to follow the first year of a higher education establishment, those who can pass the examinations after the first year will go on the others will be kindly asked to try something else for their future (unless they have had special circumstances occurring during first year).
those who are talented in the field of their choice they can go ahead and get the knowledge that will empower them in their professional life.

I would just add that no one should complain regarding the money needed for higher education because let's not forget that everyone pays taxes for a lifetime.

[AndySpeed]

People that smash up the Supreme Court and cenotaph deserve a good kicking and nothing else - bring back the SPG.

If they had attacked Obama/Putin's car they would have been shot at.

These students aren't the ones who will find a cure for cancer or unearth a better alternative to petrol FFS these are the ones watching day time tv and then drinking all night whilst moaning about how poor they are before they drive home in their DBC.

Well perhaps we should be glad that we don't have a ridiculously over-reactive government like that.

Just for the record I know someone who has just graduated with an MA in Media and Film and has gone into a good job with a production company.

I also know students studying for Physics who do nothing all day and get stoned every night. Generalise that.

[Bolton Midnight]

Do you believe that a degree guarantees you a job?

It should do, are there many unemployed dentists, doctors, opticians, architects, nurses, solicitors etc?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/8190379/National-Union-of-Students-secretly-urged-Government-to-make-deep-cuts-in-student-grants.html

Seems the NUS wanted to clobber the poorest students and the lecturers, they'll fit right in with Labour then.

No point talking about Engineers, rentamob aren't engineering students, just look at them.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/8194907/Dave-Gilmours-son-on-student-march-forward-break-the-lines...-unto-death.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/8194089/Tuition-fee-protests-Charlie-Gilmour-son-of-Pink-Floyd-guitarist-David-Gilmour-apologises-for-climbing-Cenotaph.html

see not an engineer, they'd know better than to defile the cenotaph, if a football fan had done this the nation would be baying for them to be locked up for years.

[Bolton Midnight]

Well perhaps we should be glad that we don't have a ridiculously over-reactive government like that.

Just for the record I know someone who has just graduated with an MA in Media and Film and has gone into a good job with a production company.

I also know students studying for Physics who do nothing all day and get stoned every night. Generalise that.

Exception that proves the rule

We have enough media students now

[Bolton Midnight]

Who told you those were students?
Every time there is a public manifestation like this, there will be extremist idiots who will take advantage in order to destroy some stuff without risking too much.

I do not believe that those who were there to ask for affordable access to Unis were the ones who were violent.
You are swallowing what the politicians and the mass media serve you without first filtering it.

No $hit, how do you know that?

You are again talking out of your rear and generalizing without intimate knowledge of the situation.

Please see Telegraph links re students damaging our flag, urinating on Churchill's statue and the defiling the cenotaph. Apology accepted.

I don't but feel free to try it, 1000 years in the Gulag would solve these students finance worries.

Have you been a student in the UK then and graduated and paid UK taxes?

[ioan]

Please see Telegraph links re students damaging our flag, urinating on Churchill's statue and the defiling the cenotaph. Apology accepted.

I don't but feel free to try it, 1000 years in the Gulag would solve these students finance worries.

Have you been a student in the UK then and graduated and paid UK taxes?

What apologies are you dreaming about?!
I will never apologize to one who takes the mass media for true without using his own discerning aptitudes and talks gibberish and generalizes extreme views.

What do you know about gulags? Why do you talk about stuff you do not understand?

Do I need to graduate and pay taxes in the UK to tell you that you are posting discriminative rubbish?! :rolleyes:

[donKey jote]

I also know students studying for Physics who do nothing all day and get stoned every night. Generalise that.
yep, the physics students I knew were also typical students ;) :erm: :laugh:
:bandit:

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I don't understand the argument that the increase in fees is going to put the poor students off from going to university? How exactly? There are still no upfront costs. Student loans aren't only just given out to the rich.

As a recent graduate I don't have an issue with having to pay back my student debts. I know that I will only have to pay them back when I'm earning enough to afford it.

I also don't have an issue that people didn't have to pay in the past. The current system is unsustainable. We can't afford to pay for 50% of 18 year old to go to university.

My biggest grievance is that the highest earners pay less for university in the long-run. This is because they pay the loan off faster. This means it gathers less interest. The loan should be interest free.

[Bolton Midnight]

What apologies are you dreaming about?!
I will never apologize to one who takes the mass media for true without using his own discerning aptitudes and talks gibberish and generalizes extreme views.

What do you know about gulags? Why do you talk about stuff you do not understand?

Do I need to graduate and pay taxes in the UK to tell you that you are posting discriminative rubbish?! :rolleyes:

No I figured you'd not apologise despite posting complete pish.

If you were paying for these tossers to dick about doing worthless degrees then maybe you'd not be so keen on the idea.

Read this
http://www.factsonfees.com/
perish the thought you might actually learn something about what is being discussed here.

[Bolton Midnight]

I don't understand the argument that the increase in fees is going to put the poor students off from going to university? How exactly? There are still no upfront costs. Student loans aren't only just given out to the rich.

As a recent graduate I don't have an issue with having to pay back my student debts. I know that I will only have to pay them back when I'm earning enough to afford it.

I also don't have an issue that people didn't have to pay in the past. The current system is unsustainable. We can't afford to pay for 50% of 18 year old to go to university.

By biggest grievance is that the highest earners pay less for university in the long-run. This is because they pay the loan off faster. This means it gathers less interest. The loan should be interest free.

To me those that go to Uni and then end up either unemployed or in a poorly paid job are the ones that should be targeted as they are clearly the problem area not those who get decent degrees and then go on to get decent jobs and paying their whack in taxes.

Clobber the sociology & psychology wasters not the nurses, teachers etc

[Brown, Jon Brow]

To me those that go to Uni and then end up either unemployed or in a poorly paid job are the ones that should be targeted as they are clearly the problem area not those who get decent degrees and then go on to get decent jobs and paying their whack in taxes.

Clobber the sociology & psychology wasters not the nurses, teachers etc

Since when have nurses and teachers been well paid?

[BDunnell]

To me those that go to Uni and then end up either unemployed or in a poorly paid job are the ones that should be targeted as they are clearly the problem area not those who get decent degrees and then go on to get decent jobs and paying their whack in taxes.

Clobber the sociology & psychology wasters not the nurses, teachers etc

So those who, possibly through the fault of the job market rather than their own, end up jobless after their degree should pay more back than those on an income? How would that work?

Oh, and you could possibly respond to some of the questions put to you.

[Daniel]

So those who, possibly through the fault of the job market rather than their own, end up jobless after their degree should pay more back than those on an income? How would that work?

Oh, and you could possibly respond to some of the questions put to you.
Hey, I don't see you owning a health facility. Bolton Midnight obviously knows what he's talking about :laugh:

[BDunnell]

I also don't have an issue that people didn't have to pay in the past. The current system is unsustainable. We can't afford to pay for 50% of 18 year old to go to university.

Exactly. But this isn't the fault of the university system. The problem lies at the A-level stage, which is allowing far too many people to attain the grades allowing them to go to university.

[BDunnell]

No I figured you'd not apologise despite posting complete pish.

If you were paying for these tossers to dick about doing worthless degrees then maybe you'd not be so keen on the idea.

Read this
http://www.factsonfees.com/
perish the thought you might actually learn something about what is being discussed here.

Ah yes, that unbiased source, as evidenced by the not-so-small print at the bottom: 'Promoted by Alan Mabbutt on behalf of the Conservative Party, both at 30 Millbank, London, SW1P 4DP'.

[Daniel]

Ah yes, that unbiased source, as evidenced by the not-so-small print at the bottom: 'Promoted by Alan Mabbutt on behalf of the Conservative Party, both at 30 Millbank, London, SW1P 4DP'.
Ben, why must you be forever the sceptic. It's on a webpage ffs man! Would a webpage lie?

[Bolton Midnight]

Ben, why must you be forever the sceptic. It's on a webpage ffs man! Would a webpage lie?

Who better to explain the changes then those who devised them.

A book, television programme, newspaper, letter etc are less easy to link to on an internet fora

[BDunnell]

Who better to explain the changes then those who devised them.

A book, television programme, newspaper, letter etc are less easy to link to on an internet fora

Fora is the plural. Forum is singular. That public school education would appear to have been wasted.

[Daniel]

Who better to explain the changes then those who devised them.

A book, television programme, newspaper, letter etc are less easy to link to on an internet fora

Yes, but they're hardly going to outline any or all of the negatives of their scheme now are they? Hardly an unbiased source now are they? Eh? Eh? Eh? :)

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Exactly. But this isn't the fault of the university system. The problem lies at the A-level stage, which is allowing far too many people to attain the grades allowing them to go to university.

I also feel that far too many companies blindly ask for graduates. It seems every job that I look for that isn't a sales position requires any 2:1 degree. They don't even care if it is a relevant degree or not.

[Daniel]

I also feel that far too many companies blindly ask for graduates. It seems every job that I look for that isn't a sales position requires any 2:1 degree. They don't even care if it is a relevant degree or not.
Better than my employer, they barely seem to check for a heartbeat :mark:

[Bolton Midnight]

But at present the most factual one I can find.

Maybe Labour will bring out their own but I doubt it as it'll highlight how much fairer the new system is and anyroad I doubt they are really aware what is happening as they seem to have lost the plot with most things Red Ed seems to want ideas as they have none of their own.

[Bolton Midnight]

Better than my employer, they barely seem to check for a heartbeat :mark:

On past performance probably a good job where you are concerned.

What do you do and where?

[BDunnell]

I also feel that far too many companies blindly ask for graduates. It seems every job that I look for that isn't a sales position requires any 2:1 degree. They don't even care if it is a relevant degree or not.

A degree that an awful lot of people now have. The system has been devalued, and this makes me feel very sorry for the many students and graduates of now and recent times who would always have been good enough to get into university and get a degree.

[Daniel]

On past performance probably a good job where you are concerned.

What do you do and where?

Seriously, it's none of your business :laugh:

I work in IT support and sadly have to deal with people who are amazingly even less intelligent than yourself and sadly in some cases even louder :(

[BDunnell]

On past performance probably a good job where you are concerned.

What do you do and where?

Maybe you might like to answer some of the questions put to you before asking others.

I'm still wondering about your schooling. I'm guessing Eton? Or maybe Wellington?

[Bolton Midnight]

I work in IT support and sadly have to deal with people who are amazingly even less intelligent than yourself and sadly in some cases even louder :(

In your opinion.

IT - explains a lot.

Friend of PA were you?

[BDunnell]

IT - explains a lot.

What does it explain, exactly?

[Daniel]

In your opinion.

IT - explains a lot.

Friend of PA were you?

PA? Huh?

[driveace]

I think these protesters have shot themselves in the foot,as no one will have any sympathy,after all the damage caused by these riots
In my opinion ,if i want to further my knowledge ,then its up to me to pay whatever i think fit to learn more.If i cannot afford it i do with out.Why should everybody be paying the tab for students,who just want to avoid doing what everybody else has to do and WORK!!!
Yes we need the Doctors,scientists,etc,but lots of thess courses,are anly 6to 8 hours of lessons a week,and are Micky Mouse courses.
i know a guy near me went to Hull uni,and could never pass the final exams,he stayed on an extra 3 years,and in the end they gave him a result to get rid of him.He has never worked since leaving Uni,and is now running a small chilli cafe.What good has his 6 years at Uni done him or us?

[BDunnell]

I think these protesters have shot themselves in the foot,as no one will have any sympathy,after all the damage caused by these riots
In my opinion ,if i want to further my knowledge ,then its up to me to pay whatever i think fit to learn more.If i cannot afford it i do with out.Why should everybody be paying the tab for students,who just want to avoid doing what everybody else has to do and WORK!!!
Yes we need the Doctors,scientists,etc,but lots of thess courses,are anly 6to 8 hours of lessons a week,and are Micky Mouse courses.
i know a guy near me went to Hull uni,and could never pass the final exams,he stayed on an extra 3 years,and in the end they gave him a result to get rid of him.He has never worked since leaving Uni,and is now running a small chilli cafe.What good has his 6 years at Uni done him or us?

How interesting that those expressing this sort of view do so in the most inarticulate fashion. Do I detect a hint of jealousy at the opportunities presented to those of greater intelligence? And what on earth does the sentence 'In my opinion ,if i want to further my knowledge ,then its up to me to pay whatever i think fit to learn more' mean? Whatever you think fit?

[ioan]

No I figured you'd not apologise despite posting complete pish.

Good, now at least you are not in line for a surprise.



If you were paying for these tossers to dick about doing worthless degrees then maybe you'd not be so keen on the idea.


FYI I am paying over 1700 Euro taxes/month and I would love it if at least 50% would be used to allow free access to high level education.

[ioan]

And what on earth does the sentence 'In my opinion ,if i want to further my knowledge ,then its up to me to pay whatever i think fit to learn more' mean? Whatever you think fit?

Well spotted! ;)

[BDunnell]

FYI I am paying over 1700 Euro taxes/month and I would love it if at least 50% would be used to allow free access to high level education.

I have never agreed with you more, ioan.

[Bolton Midnight]

PA? Huh?

Pentti Airikkala

Had the pleasure a couple of times, great bloke

http://www.flyingfinns.com/airikkal.htm

[ioan]

A degree that an awful lot of people now have. The system has been devalued, and this makes me feel very sorry for the many students and graduates of now and recent times who would always have been good enough to get into university and get a degree.

Very good point.
Let's see who's at fault for what happened with the educational system, the students or the politicians? Most of us know the answer.

[ioan]

Seriously, it's none of your business :laugh:

I work in IT support and sadly have to deal with people who are amazingly even less intelligent than yourself and sadly in some cases even louder :(

:rotflmao: :up:

[ioan]

I have never agreed with you more, ioan.

I am really glad to see that there are other sensible people around here, sometimes I feel there is little left for this society.
This thread gives me a little more hope for the future.

[BDunnell]

I am really glad to see that there are other sensible people around here, sometimes I feel there is little left for this society.
This thread gives me a little more hope for the future.

It gives me quite the opposite, because our opinions are firmly in the minority and will become ever more so.

[driveace]

But its taxes as you say!!!
You do not have to go to Uni to be able to earn a fantastic amount of money,some or the richest guys i know,who have very large companys,and earn large amounts of money,have never been to Uni at all.
Why should I or anyone else who never went ,or wanted to go to Uni be jealous of people who do?
I have only ever worked for 2 differant employees in my 50 years of working ,and my employment with both of then totalled only 5 years,for the last 45 years i have run my own company.

[Bolton Midnight]

Very good point.
Let's see who's at fault for what happened with the educational system, the students or the politicians? Most of us know the answer.

The kids aren't any cleverer or thicker than 10, 20, 50 years ago, the exams just got piss easy to make the politicians/teachers look like they were doing a good job, not to mention this whole 'nobody loses everyone wins' train of thinking.

Telling the nation's kids that 50% of them will go to Uni was a silly thing to do, as 50% of the nation are not degree material, seem to recall in the past it was 1% that went to Uni. Not to mention if all the 19 year old are filming their mates staring out to a quayside looking moody and enigmatic, who does the jobs that apprentices used to do?

There are far too many kids at Uni, it needs cutting back on top of them paying a larger percentage of their tuition fees.



FYI I am paying over 1700 Euro taxes/month and I would love it if at least 50% would be used to allow free access to high level education.

We don't have the Euro in England, thankfully.

But I pay taxes for ever other bugger's kids and on top of that I pay for my own children's private education so don't see why I should pay any more, in fact I should be given a tax break for easing the burden on the state.

[AndySpeed]

Clobber the sociology & psychology wasters not the nurses, teachers etc

I know a psychology graduate too, who now works in a Category B prison and her job is entirely relevant to her degree. She was also particularly interested in the subject and university allowed her to develop her knowledge further. Psychology might not be for you sir, but there are some people who shouldn't be shafted who can put their knowledge to good use. The problem is that there may be a few too many people studying psychology. Discourage, don't discriminate.

[Caroline]

.Why should everybody be paying the tab for students,who just want to avoid doing what everybody else has to do and WORK!!!
Yes we need the Doctors,scientists,etc,but lots of thess courses,are anly 6to 8 hours of lessons a week,and are Micky Mouse courses.
?


I don't have any children so why am I working and paying taxes so parents can receive child benefit?
I also don't smoke so why is my money being used for government initiatives to help people quit smoking?
I also work hard to pay taxes which are spent on public transport when I happily drive when I need to get anywhere.
Don't get me started on the war in Iraq!

Being a taxpayer doesn't mean I can pick and choose where the money gets spent or indeed not spent. As a taxpayer I don't want Education funding to be marginalised, both for institutions and students. Education funding in the UK is shocking. Shockingly bad and looks to get worse. Perfectly able students will be put off studying for degree courses by the fear of overwhelming debt. I know if I was 17/18 and facing the prospect of being swamped in fees, I wouldn't study. How many professionals are we going to lose?

[ioan]

But its taxes as you say!!!
You do not have to go to Uni to be able to earn a fantastic amount of money,some or the richest guys i know,who have very large companys,and earn large amounts of money,have never been to Uni at all.
Why should I or anyone else who never went ,or wanted to go to Uni be jealous of people who do?
I have only ever worked for 2 differant employees in my 50 years of working ,and my employment with both of then totalled only 5 years,for the last 45 years i have run my own company.

I did not go to the University to earn lots of money afterward, I did it to learn things that I was interested in and man am I glad I did. I would do it again if I were to restart my life.

It is my own belief that studying at the university is profoundly different from doing it at lower levels (high school and earlier), IMO it helps one broaden it's views and define his philosophy of lie and work.

I do not know if you are jealous or not, what I would like to see is that people do not criticize students based on preconceived ideas.

[Daniel]

Pentti Airikkala

Had the pleasure a couple of times, great bloke

http://www.flyingfinns.com/airikkal.htm
I never got to meet the man sadly.

[AndySpeed]

But its taxes as you say!!!
You do not have to go to Uni to be able to earn a fantastic amount of money,some or the richest guys i know,who have very large companys,and earn large amounts of money,have never been to Uni at all.
Why should I or anyone else who never went ,or wanted to go to Uni be jealous of people who do?
I have only ever worked for 2 differant employees in my 50 years of working ,and my employment with both of then totalled only 5 years,for the last 45 years i have run my own company.

What you need to do is separate business and academia. Anyone, degree level or not, can start a business and earn good money.

Not everyone has the capability or drive to go to university and read into the subject that they want, to further their knowledge and contribute to everyone else's, research existing and new topics and come up with new and innovative ideas. Those who do would rather not have to pay such vast amounts for it, or pay the national debt through the withdrawal of funding for education. After all they are some of the biggest contributors to society.

Before anyone comes back at me with yet another reference to history of art or sociology - I am obviously not referring to these.

[BDunnell]

But its taxes as you say!!!
You do not have to go to Uni to be able to earn a fantastic amount of money,some or the richest guys i know,who have very large companys,and earn large amounts of money,have never been to Uni at all.
Why should I or anyone else who never went ,or wanted to go to Uni be jealous of people who do?
I have only ever worked for 2 differant employees in my 50 years of working ,and my employment with both of then totalled only 5 years,for the last 45 years i have run my own company.

What, may I ask, has any of this to do with the issue of tuition fees?

[Brown, Jon Brow]

What, may I ask, has any of this to do with the issue of tuition fees?

We need more people studying English Language at university?

[Daniel]

We need more people studying English Language at university?
What? Me fail English? That's unpossible!

[BDunnell]

The kids aren't any cleverer or thicker than 10, 20, 50 years ago, the exams just got piss easy to make the politicians/teachers look like they were doing a good job, not to mention this whole 'nobody loses everyone wins' train of thinking.

Telling the nation's kids that 50% of them will go to Uni was a silly thing to do, as 50% of the nation are not degree material, seem to recall in the past it was 1% that went to Uni.

I agree with you wholeheartedly on all of that, but if it was ever true that only 1 per cent of the population went to university, which I doubt, that was clearly too small a percentage, and probably based more on personal privilege than academic ability. We probably had a better balance — not perfect, but better — about 15 or 20 years ago.



But I pay taxes for ever other bugger's kids and on top of that I pay for my own children's private education so don't see why I should pay any more, in fact I should be given a tax break for easing the burden on the state.

You should pay more because knowledge and education is a wonderful thing. Simple as that. I am proud to contribute towards others gaining it, while feeling strongly that we are sending far too many people in the UK to university.

[J4MIE]

I watched the news last night and as usual with this kind of thing, was and am still disgusted :mad:

Not with the student protesters as it was more people out looking for a fight, but the hired thugs - aka the old bill. Rather than targetting and going after the troublemakers, they go for the easy targets, batons at the ready for the guy on the ground, thumping those who won't move back even if the crowd is preventing them from doing so. Getting the mounted police in to CHARGE into a big group of people who luckily were able to get out of the way. Absolutely appalling crowd control :down: Yet they are commended for showing restraint :angryfire

As for the arguments about universities, as usual I can't be bothered arguing but I commend BDunnell's comments, I think we have a very similar outlook on life :up:

[ioan]

Not to mention if all the 19 year old are filming their mates staring out to a quayside looking moody and enigmatic, who does the jobs that apprentices used to do?

Do you really believe that everyone can get a degree at the university?!
There are enough people who give up on their higher education degrees because it is too difficult.
And there is 50% of the youngsters who never go to the Uni anyway, that leaves enough people to do less intellectually challenging work.


There are far too many kids at Uni, it needs cutting back on top of them paying a larger percentage of their tuition fees.

There are exactly as many kids at the Uni as they want to be there, nothing wrong with that.



We don't have the Euro in England, thankfully.

This speaks volumes.


But I pay taxes for ever other bugger's kids and on top of that I pay for my own children's private education so don't see why I should pay any more, in fact I should be given a tax break for easing the burden on the state.

Others also pay for their and your children too, so I do not see the problem.
What I see is that you think that someone is studying and getting a better life on your tax money and that bothers you immensely.

[BDunnell]

We need more people studying English Language at university?

I see what you mean.

[Drew]

We need more people studying English Language at university?

I heard some woman representing NUS on the TV she kept on saying "f" instead of "th". If anything they need to increase spending on education, not cut it.

[ioan]

What? Me fail English? That's unpossible!

You should go back to elementary school! :p ;)

[Bolton Midnight]

I know a psychology graduate too, who now works in a Category B prison and her job is entirely relevant to her degree. She was also particularly interested in the subject and university allowed her to develop her knowledge further. Psychology might not be for you sir, but there are some people who shouldn't be shafted who can put their knowledge to good use. The problem is that there may be a few too many people studying psychology. Discourage, don't discriminate.

And I assume she will be earning enough to repay her tuition fees if she was at Uni in the future rather than the past, so not really sure what you are getting at.

Read what I wrote, it is those who are NOT working that are the real drain on the nation and I'd like to see them bought to book.

If there are lots of unemployed psychology post grads then there are clearly too many - supply and demand and all that jazz.

Used to play squash at Lancaster Uni and drink/fight/fornicate in the city too, lots of students doing weird and wonderful degrees but believe things have improved since then and the Uni is now less Mickey Mouse than it used to be.

[BDunnell]

Not with the student protesters as it was more people out looking for a fight, but the hired thugs - aka the old bill. Rather than targetting and going after the troublemakers, they go for the easy targets, batons at the ready for the guy on the ground, thumping those who won't move back even if the crowd is preventing them from doing so. Getting the mounted police in to CHARGE into a big group of people who luckily were able to get out of the way. Absolutely appalling crowd control :down: Yet they are commended for showing restraint :angryfire

How different would the attitude have been this morning had it not been for the attack on the Royal car, the clambering on the Cenotaph and so on?

As for the police, I don't wish to tar too many people with the same brush, but my (admittedly restricted) experience of being near off-duty police officers in the UK offered ample confirmation that institutional racism is alive and well, and that these people are exactly the sort you wouldn't want protecting your interests if you were in any sense something other than quite right-wing. There was a report a few years ago stating that intelligent, liberal-minded, younger professionals lack respect for the police because of these very facts. How true this is.

[ShiftingGears]

I work in IT support and sadly have to deal with people who are amazingly even less intelligent than yourself and sadly in some cases even louder :(

:laugh: :laugh:

[Daniel]

You should go back to elementary school! :p ;)

My cats breath smells like cat food :p

[Bolton Midnight]

I watched the news last night and as usual with this kind of thing, was and am still disgusted :mad:

Not with the student protesters as it was more people out looking for a fight, but the hired thugs - aka the old bill. Rather than targetting and going after the troublemakers, they go for the easy targets, batons at the ready for the guy on the ground, thumping those who won't move back even if the crowd is preventing them from doing so. Getting the mounted police in to CHARGE into a big group of people who luckily were able to get out of the way. Absolutely appalling crowd control :down: Yet they are commended for showing restraint :angryfire

As for the arguments about universities, as usual I can't be bothered arguing but I commend BDunnell's comments, I think we have a very similar outlook on life :up:

You clearly did not read the Telegraph links re David Gilmour's STUDENT son defiling the cenotaph and his student mates slashing on Churchill's statue.

The students were told where to march yet they decided to go elsewhere, only a shame we don't have water cannons like they do in Europe. Esp in this cold weather.

[Bolton Midnight]

I heard some woman representing NUS on the TV she kept on saying "f" instead of "th". If anything they need to increase spending on education, not cut it.

Or perish the thought be a bit more selective re who goes. Elitism works when all said and done, giving degrees out willy nilly just degrades the whole thing.

[Daniel]

Or perish the thought be a bit more selective re who goes. Elitism works when all said and done, giving degrees out willy nilly just degrades the whole thing.
You didn't just say that did you?

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I did not go to the University to earn lots of money afterward, I did it to learn things that I was interested in and man am I glad I did. I would do it again if I were to restart my life.



I understand what you mean.

I could be in my current job without my degree. But going to university has made me a much more open-minded and tolerant person.

Maybe one of the reasons I don't feel aggrieved about having to pay back my student loans is because I feel like I got value for money.

[Daniel]

I watched the news last night and as usual with this kind of thing, was and am still disgusted :mad:

Not with the student protesters as it was more people out looking for a fight, but the hired thugs - aka the old bill. Rather than targetting and going after the troublemakers, they go for the easy targets, batons at the ready for the guy on the ground, thumping those who won't move back even if the crowd is preventing them from doing so. Getting the mounted police in to CHARGE into a big group of people who luckily were able to get out of the way. Absolutely appalling crowd control :down: Yet they are commended for showing restraint :angryfire

As for the arguments about universities, as usual I can't be bothered arguing but I commend BDunnell's comments, I think we have a very similar outlook on life :up:

I think if you put yourself in that situation then surely you must know what may possibly happen. At the end of the day if the Police hadn't taken control of the situation it would have got far worse. I don't see any way this sort of situation could be resolved without people getting hurt.

[ShiftingGears]

I find the relaxed nature of some arts degrees quite perplexing - I know people who've handed essays in over a month late and still get distinctions. I don't find that to be setting people up for life at all, handing something in so preposterously late and getting more than zero for it. It's an amusing comparison to my degree.

Other than that, I don't have any significant issues with university. It's a worthy investment.

[BDunnell]

There are exactly as many kids at the Uni as they want to be there, nothing wrong with that.

On everything else you say here, I agree, with this one exception. I actually think Bolton Midnight has a point when he mentions the notion of 50 per cent of the British population in effect being told that they will go to university. This, after all, was the Labour government's misguided target. That's fine if 50 per cent of the population were genuinely of, shall we say, university quality, but they aren't — in any sense other than getting the grades they need. I don't think 50 per cent of Britons are at that level, no matter what the rising A-level results might say. This used to just be accepted. Now my view is generally regarded as snobbish. If so, I'm fine with that.

In defending the tuition fees rise, the Government has gone on and on about the notion of 'social mobility', and how the university system has, in the past, 'failed' students from poorer backgrounds. What we now see are efforts to even out educational inequalities when students reach 18. This is simply wrong.

[ioan]

I understand what you mean.

I could be in my current job without my degree. But going to university has made me a much more open-minded and tolerant person.

Maybe one of the reasons I don't feel aggrieved about having to pay back my student loans is because I feel like I got value for money.

:up:

[Bolton Midnight]

I don't have any children so why am I working and paying taxes so parents can receive child benefit?
I also don't smoke so why is my money being used for government initiatives to help people quit smoking?
I also work hard to pay taxes which are spent on public transport when I happily drive when I need to get anywhere.
Don't get me started on the war in Iraq!

Being a taxpayer doesn't mean I can pick and choose where the money gets spent or indeed not spent. As a taxpayer I don't want Education funding to be marginalised, both for institutions and students. Education funding in the UK is shocking. Shockingly bad and looks to get worse. Perfectly able students will be put off studying for degree courses by the fear of overwhelming debt. I know if I was 17/18 and facing the prospect of being swamped in fees, I wouldn't study. How many professionals are we going to lose?

We actually need children for the human race to carry on. Appreciate that may seem like a small consideration compared with you losing 5p a year. But having kids is why we are actually here on this wonderful planet.

If it wasn't for the smokers you'd actually be paying more taxes not less, approx £500 per year smokers save you, you should thank them.

The war was illegal, best bring that up with the Labour supporters within here.

Sorry to introduce facts but Wales / Scotland are not affected by the recent vote.

If they are put off then they clearly were not committed in the first place so probably for the best they stayed at home. Can't see this affecting the traditional professions in the slightest, in fact I think it'll have the opposite effect a bit more vocational degrees and a lot less social studies, humanities rubbish.

[ioan]

I find the relaxed nature of some arts degrees quite perplexing - I know people who've handed essays in over a month late and still get distinctions. I don't find that to be setting people up for life at all, handing something in so preposterously late and getting more than zero for it. It's an amusing comparison to my degree.

Other than that, I don't have any significant issues with university. It's a worthy investment.

Art is art, it shouldn't have a due date. Now if it was medicine or engineering I wouldn't defend it, however creating work of art on a time line basis is not right IMO.

[BDunnell]

Read what I wrote, it is those who are NOT working that are the real drain on the nation and I'd like to see them bought to book.

Brought to book? How would you suggest doing this? Earlier, lest you or anyone else forget, you said that people should be made to pay larger sums if they fail to get a job after their degree, which is possibly the most absurd suggestion I've heard. Maybe you might like to come up with another one?



If there are lots of unemployed psychology post grads then there are clearly too many - supply and demand and all that jazz.

As a right-winger, you presumably believe in utterly unrestricted personal freedom too, don't you? In which case, you should have no problem with people studying whatever it is they want to study.

[Bolton Midnight]

You didn't just say that did you?

So what are your thoughts on Grammar Schools then?

Tried and tested and work, we are not all the same, you can not have a one size fits all education system.

[ioan]

On everything else you say here, I agree, with this one exception. I actually think Bolton Midnight has a point when he mentions the notion of 50 per cent of the British population in effect being told that they will go to university. This, after all, was the Labour government's misguided target. That's fine if 50 per cent of the population were genuinely of, shall we say, university quality, but they aren't — in any sense other than getting the grades they need. I don't think 50 per cent of Britons are at that level, no matter what the rising A-level results might say. This used to just be accepted. Now my view is generally regarded as snobbish. If so, I'm fine with that.

In defending the tuition fees rise, the Government has gone on and on about the notion of 'social mobility', and how the university system has, in the past, 'failed' students from poorer backgrounds. What we now see are efforts to even out educational inequalities when students reach 18. This is simply wrong.

I agree that 50% of people being promised a Uni degree is wrong.
I see it myself more like 20%, however I defend the right of everyone to try and see if they can make it.
All that is needed is for the examinations to be done seriously and those who fail them being told to try another path in life.
Talent and not money should make the difference.

[BDunnell]

The students were told where to march yet they decided to go elsewhere

People not wishing to take orders from the authorities in a protest? Whatever next?

[BDunnell]

I agree that 50% of people being promised a Uni degree is wrong.
I see it myself more like 20%, however I defend the right of everyone to try and see if they can make it.
All that is needed is for the examinations to be done seriously and those who fail them being told to try another path in life.
Talent and not money should make the difference.

Again, I agree wholeheartedly.

[ShiftingGears]

Art is art, it shouldn't have a due date. Now if it was medicine of engineering I wouldn't defend it, however creating work of art on a time line basis is not right IMO.

That is an interesting view - but what is art and what is not? I don't really think essays fall into that category, as they tend to be more an analysis of coursework, whereas a creative composition such as a narrative, a painting or a piece of music is clearly a work of art.

[Caroline]

We actually need children for the human race to carry on. Appreciate that may seem like a small consideration compared with you losing 5p a year. But having kids is why we are actually here on this wonderful planet.

If it wasn't for the smokers you'd actually be paying more taxes not less, approx £500 per year smokers save you, you should thank them.

The war was illegal, best bring that up with the Labour supporters within here.

Sorry to introduce facts but Wales / Scotland are not affected by the recent vote.

If they are put off then they clearly were not committed in the first place so probably for the best they stayed at home. Can't see this affecting the traditional professions in the slightest, in fact I think it'll have the opposite effect a bit more vocational degrees and a lot less social studies, humanities rubbish.

I was being sarcastic. I thought that my misguided comments might make someone see how ridiculous some posts have been in this thread.

I am aware about Education in Wales, thank you.

[Bolton Midnight]

I find the relaxed nature of some arts degrees quite perplexing - I know people who've handed essays in over a month late and still get distinctions. I don't find that to be setting people up for life at all, handing something in so preposterously late and getting more than zero for it. It's an amusing comparison to my degree.


Sounds an ideal preparation for a job within the public sector to me.

As they have a monopoly they can be and are as useless as they like.

[BDunnell]

So what are your thoughts on Grammar Schools then?

Tried and tested and work, we are not all the same, you can not have a one size fits all education system.

Comprehensives can also be fine. I went to a comp and I've done OK for myself. You apparently went to a leading public school (one which you still refuse to name, I note — was it Hogwarts?) and yet your command of the English language is decidedly sub-standard and your opinions half-baked.

[J4MIE]

I think if you put yourself in that situation then surely you must know what may possibly happen. At the end of the day if the Police hadn't taken control of the situation it would have got far worse. I don't see any way this sort of situation could be resolved without people getting hurt.

I don't think that's entirely the case. Whilst I would be peaceful at all times (as anyonw who knows me would agree with) I would not be expecting to get whacked with a baton whilst lying on the ground, or to be charged by a pack of horses. I don't like horses at the best of times and am scared just looking at police horses anyway.

[Daniel]

I am aware about Education in Wales, thank you.

Whereas I am clearly ignorant when it comes to this topic :p (private joke between Caroline and myself :p )

[BDunnell]

Art is art, it shouldn't have a due date. Now if it was medicine of engineering I wouldn't defend it, however creating work of art on a time line basis is not right IMO.

If you don't mind me saying, I think you may have made a slight misunderstanding here. My German degree would be classed as an 'arts' degree, yet I never had to make a pot.

[Daniel]

I don't think that's entirely the case. Whilst I would be peaceful at all times (as anyonw who knows me would agree with) I would not be expecting to get whacked with a baton whilst lying on the ground, or to be charged by a pack of horses. I don't like horses at the best of times and am scared just looking at police horses anyway.

Well if you don't want to deal with horses don't go to a demonstration that's destined to turn violent ;)

As always, the needs of many must come before the needs of the few so if you want to have a Gandhi style peaceful protest inbetween some rioting anarchists and the police then you're going to get moved on.

[Bolton Midnight]

I agree that 50% of people being promised a Uni degree is wrong.
I see it myself more like 20%, however I defend the right of everyone to try and see if they can make it.
All that is needed is for the examinations to be done seriously and those who fail them being told to try another path in life.
Talent and not money should make the difference.

But that would upset them being told they aren't up to it, we can't have that.

Everyone can try there are no barriers and since the recent vote there are actually less barriers, so it is a good thing yes?

It is actually harder for a rich kid to get a place at Oxbridge than a poor kid, again sorry for being factual; call me an idiot and then get one of your pals to congratulate you seems the usual response.

[BDunnell]

I understand what you mean.

I could be in my current job without my degree. But going to university has made me a much more open-minded and tolerant person.

Maybe one of the reasons I don't feel aggrieved about having to pay back my student loans is because I feel like I got value for money.

Very well said. Would you feel you'd got value for money if you'd had to pay nine grand a year, though?

[Daniel]

If you don't mind me saying, I think you may have made a slight misunderstanding here. My German degree would be classed as an 'arts' degree, yet I never had to make a pot.

Why when I saw "arts degree" and "pot" in the same sentence did I think of marijuana? :p

[Brown, Jon Brow]

So what are your thoughts on Grammar Schools then?

Tried and tested and work, we are not all the same, you can not have a one size fits all education system.

The Sixth form college I went to achieves far better results than any Grammar school I could have gone to in the North West.

[BDunnell]

It is actually harder for a rich kid to get a place at Oxbridge than a poor kid, again sorry for being factual

From where did you obtain this 'fact'?

[Bolton Midnight]

Whereas I am clearly ignorant when it comes to this topic :p (private joke between Caroline and myself :p )

Does your boyfriend Bummel know about these secret jokes?

[ioan]

[quote="BDunnell"]If you don't mind me saying, I think you may have made a slight misunderstanding here. My German degree would be classed as an 'arts' degree, yet I never had to make a pot.[/QUOTE

I see, my bad. ;)

[Daniel]

Does your boyfriend Bummel know about these secret jokes?
I don't know, I've never asked him. Caroline's in the next room, shall I ask her if she knows whether Ben knows?

[Bolton Midnight]

I was being sarcastic. I thought that my misguided comments might make someone see how ridiculous some posts have been in this thread.

I am aware about Education in Wales, thank you.

Hard to tell sarcasm from heartfelt leftyism

Glad I have an address I can use in Cardiff should my kids decide to go to Uni in Wales

[BDunnell]

If you don't mind me saying, I think you may have made a slight misunderstanding here. My German degree would be classed as an 'arts' degree, yet I never had to make a pot.[/QUOTE

I see, my bad. ;)

No need to apologise! After all, given that English is not your first language, you can be excused the odd slip. Those who have been speaking it since birth have little excuse, especially if they went to university...

[ioan]

But that would upset them being told they aren't up to it, we can't have that.

It isn't easy to decide and tell them that hey are not up to it, however having done the job for years, I can only say that most of them are already aware about reality and take it as a positive development in their life.

[Bolton Midnight]

I don't know, I've never asked him. Caroline's in the next room, shall I ask her if she knows whether Ben knows?

You have a partner??

now that real is a surprise or are you brother and sister / flatmates / she's your mummy making sure you don't look at nudey women again and wreck the PC ??

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Very well said. Would you feel you'd got value for money if you'd had to pay nine grand a year, though?

If I was currently earning over £21,000 in a job that I could only have got with my degree, then yes.

Maybe.

[Daniel]

You have a partner??

now that real is a surprise or are you brother and sister / flatmates / she's your mummy making sure you don't look at nudey women again and wreck the PC ??

That's just too much for me :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

Night everyone!!!!

[Bolton Midnight]

It isn't easy to decide and tell them that hey are not up to it, however having done the job for years, I can only say that most of them are already aware about reality and take it as a positive development in their life.

So why do so many shall we say thickies feel it is their god given right to attend Uni if as you say they are already aware that they don't have the right stuff to get the most out of a University education?

Tony Blair filling their heads with all this nonsense.

[ioan]

You have a partner??

now that real is a surprise or are you brother and sister / flatmates / she's your mummy making sure you don't look at nudey women again and wreck the PC ??

Guys is this really necessary?
I had the impression that we are discussing about education rather than each others sexual preferences.

[BDunnell]

You have a partner??

now that real is a surprise or are you brother and sister / flatmates / she's your mummy making sure you don't look at nudey women again and wreck the PC ??

May I remind everyone that the person who just posted this marvellous bon mot, reminiscent of the best of Wilde, went to public school and university.

[ShiftingGears]

No need to apologise! After all, given that English is not your first language, you can be excused the odd slip. Those who have been speaking it since birth have little excuse, especially if they went to university...

It's pretty unbelievable how many people at university still make basic spelling and grammar errors, like being unable to distinguish you're from your, they're from there from their, to from too, and so on.

[BDunnell]

So why do so many shall we say thickies feel it is their god given right to attend Uni if as you say they are already aware that they don't have the right stuff to get the most out of a University education?

Tony Blair filling their heads with all this nonsense.

Yes, I'm sure that 18-year-olds the country over live their whole lives on the basis of what Tony Blair tells them.

[ioan]

So why do so many shall we say thickies feel it is their god given right to attend Uni if as you say they are already aware that they don't have the right stuff to get the most out of a University education?

Tony Blair filling their heads with all this nonsense.

They are aware of this after they try it and see how they do, not before.

[Bolton Midnight]

The Sixth form college I went to achieves far better results than any Grammar school I could have gone to in the North West.

Well that won't be Clitheroe, Skipton or Lancaster as they will trounce the likes of Lancaster & Morecambe, Tuson (sp), Burnley, Blackburn

[BDunnell]

It's pretty unbelievable how many people at university still make basic spelling and grammar errors, like being unable to distinguish you're from your, they're from there from their, to from too, and so on.

As I said recently in another thread, it is in fact true that educated people have long had a problem with such basic things, which mystifies me as the rules aren't hard.

[Caroline]

Hard to tell sarcasm from heartfelt leftyism



I'm sorry to read that.

I shall have to use a blue type from now on to demonstrate my non lefty credentials, or indeed a nice mustardy yellow.

[BDunnell]

If I was currently earning over £21,000 in a job that I could only have got with my degree, then yes.

Maybe.

Fair point.

[BDunnell]

I'm sorry to read that.

I shall have to use a blue type from now on to demonstrate my non lefty credentials, or indeed a nice mustardy yellow.

I now prefer to think of the latter as a diarrhoea-y, vomit-y yellow.

[Bolton Midnight]

It's pretty unbelievable how many people at university still make basic spelling and grammar errors, like being unable to distinguish you're from your, they're from there from their, to from too, and so on.

or maybe just maybe they're not all that arsed because it is the internet and not something of earth shattering importance

Not to mention typos

Always a sure fire indication the other side is on the ropes when they pick up on typos

[Bolton Midnight]

I'm sorry to read that.

I shall have to use a blue type from now on to demonstrate my non lefty credentials, or indeed a nice mustardy yellow.

Ta muchly

[ShiftingGears]

The Sixth form college I went to achieves far better results than any Grammar school I could have gone to in the North West.

I went to a selective public high school, if I had kids I would without a doubt want them to go there.

[Bolton Midnight]

Guys is this really necessary?
I had the impression that we are discussing about education rather than each others sexual preferences.

Just following on from their previous style of posts/insults

I'm quite happy to carry on sans insults but don't think they are capable

[BDunnell]

or maybe just maybe they're not all that arsed because it is the internet and not something of earth shattering importance

Not to mention typos

Always a sure fire indication the other side is on the ropes when they pick up on typos

So adequate written communication is unimportant, is it? Again, you are deeply inconsistent. You moan about falling standards, yet you present no evidence yourself of being able to attain anything approaching academic ability. Bit hypocritical, I'd say.

[Bolton Midnight]

I went to a selective public high school, if I had kids I would without a doubt want them to go there.

See, elitism works

I'd rather sell a kidney than see my kids in the crap state schools we have locally.

[driveace]

Well that won't be Clitheroe, Skipton or Lancaster as they will trounce the likes of Lancaster & Morecambe, Tuson (sp), Burnley, Blackburn
I agree with you here about Skipton,Clitheroe,etc,Dogs Ball***S come to mind

[BDunnell]

Just following on from their previous style of posts/insults

I'm quite happy to carry on sans insults but don't think they are capable

Where in any thread have I, for one, ever made a sexual insinuation about you? Any criticisms I might have levelled have been in response to the levels of understanding shown in your posts, and this is, after all, a discussion forum.

[Bolton Midnight]

They are aware of this after they try it and see how they do, not before.

Sorry so you advocate they sit two years of A Levels and a three year degree just to fail, so that they realise they aren't the sharpest tool in the box?

[ioan]

I went to a selective public high school, if I had kids I would without a doubt want them to go there.

Communist public schools were very good back in my day. I am skeptical about finding similar quality schools for my kids when the time comes.
But who knows maybe the government decides to do something sensible and the level of the educational system improves in the near future.

[ShiftingGears]

Always a sure fire indication the other side is on the ropes when they pick up on typos

It's not a typo if the person actually does not know how to spell a word properly or is unable to use proper grammar. A typo is just a mechanical error when typing, like accidentally hitting the wrong key.

I find that picking up on spelling/grammatical errors usually involves some hilarious irony, which is entirely worth pointing out.


PS - No it is not.

[ioan]

Sorry so you advocate they sit two years of A Levels and a three year degree just to fail, so that they realise they aren't the sharpest tool in the box?

No, I advocate that they are allowed one year at the university and if they pass the exams after the first year they can continue if not they will have to give up.
I believe this is fair towards everyone.

[ShiftingGears]

Communist public schools were very good back in my day. I am skeptical about finding similar quality schools for my kids when the time comes.
But who knows maybe the government decides to do something sensible and the level of the educational system improves in the near future.

Oh I would probably choose a private school over a standard public school. But selective public schools are fantastic.

Because everyone is in the same boat - there's usually noone dragging the class down because they are not intelligent enough or because they have absolutely no interest in learning.

[Bolton Midnight]

But its taxes as you say!!!
You do not have to go to Uni to be able to earn a fantastic amount of money,some or the richest guys i know,who have very large companys,and earn large amounts of money,have never been to Uni at all.
Why should I or anyone else who never went ,or wanted to go to Uni be jealous of people who do?
I have only ever worked for 2 differant employees in my 50 years of working ,and my employment with both of then totalled only 5 years,for the last 45 years i have run my own company.


Think you are wasting your breath, arrogant upstarts think they know it all, they'll grow up eventually.

[BDunnell]

I find that picking up on spelling/grammatical errors usually involves some hilarious irony, which is entirely worth pointing out.

Quite. It's why I don't comment on it every time anyone commits such an error — only if it renders them hypocritical, like, for example, someone moaning about falling educational standards in English that is shown up by other forum members for whom English is a foreign language.

[BDunnell]

Think you are wasting your breath, arrogant upstarts think they know it all, they'll grow up eventually.

I'm glad you were able to decipher the relevance of driveace's post you've just quoted. I found it, shall we say, a trifle rambling.

[Bolton Midnight]

It's not a typo if the person actually does not know how to spell a word properly or is unable to use proper grammar. A typo is just a mechanical error when typing, like accidentally hitting the wrong key.

I find that picking up on spelling/grammatical errors usually involves some hilarious irony, which is entirely worth pointing out.

PS - No it is not.

If I put now instead of know - that is a typo as I know the difference but miss hit the K

Things like iPhones aren't the easiest things to type on

[Bolton Midnight]

Communist public schools were very good back in my day. I am skeptical about finding similar quality schools for my kids when the time comes.
But who knows maybe the government decides to do something sensible and the level of the educational system improves in the near future.

Public Schools in the UK are private / fee paying, places like Stowe / Harrow / Sedburgh are Public Schools

[Bolton Midnight]

No, I advocate that they are allowed one year at the university and if they pass the exams after the first year they can continue if not they will have to give up.
I believe this is fair towards everyone.

Seems a bloody waste of their time and our money

Decent A Level grades, rigorous interview and entrance exam to get into Uni in the first place

[ioan]

Public Schools in the UK are private / fee paying, places like Stowe / Harrow / Sedburgh are Public Schools

I guess there is also gratuitous access to schools in the UK. Or am I wrong?

[Bolton Midnight]

Because everyone is in the same boat - there's usually noone dragging the class down because they are not intelligent enough or because they have absolutely no interest in learning.

Not always, but the broad idea is right - elitism works as I've said

The cream floats to the top as it should do

[Bolton Midnight]

I guess there is also gratuitous access to schools in the UK. Or am I wrong?

Yes free state schools including selective Grammar schools (that the left wingers hate with a passion)

[ioan]

Seems a bloody waste of their time and our money

How much money is it needed for someone to attend along with other hundreds of students?
How are they to know if it is a waste of time or not if they don't try it first?


Decent A Level grades, rigorous interview and entrance exam to get into Uni in the first place

Decent A level grades are not to say that everything will be great at the Uni.
Also what if a 17 years old kid wasn't giving it his all however they could do much better at the Uni due to the different approach needed?

Give people a chance before judging them.

[BDunnell]

I guess there is also gratuitous access to schools in the UK. Or am I wrong?

When you say gratuitous, what do you mean?

[ShiftingGears]

How much money is it needed for someone to attend along with other hundreds of students?
How are they to know if it is a waste of time or not if they don't try it first?



Decent A level grades are not to say that everything will be great at the Uni.
Also what if a 17 years old kid wasn't giving it his all however they could do much better at the Uni due to the different approach needed?

Give people a chance before judging them.

Agreed.

[ioan]

I will have to call it a day now, it is quite late in Euroland!
I'll join again tomorrow! :)

[ShiftingGears]

Not always, but the broad idea is right - elitism works as I've said

The cream floats to the top as it should do

But then how do you think that ties in with increasing fees?

[ioan]

When you say gratuitous, what do you mean?

That no fees or taxes have to be paid.

[BDunnell]

That no fees or taxes have to be paid.

Oh yes, most schools are run on that basis.

[ioan]

But then how do you think that ties in with increasing fees?

Only the rich cream will stay afloat in the end?!

OK, now it's really good night time. ;)

[BDunnell]

Seems a bloody waste of their time and our money

Given that you claim to have attended a fee-paying school, this remark is a bit rich.

[Bolton Midnight]

How much money is it needed for someone to attend along with other hundreds of students?
How are they to know if it is a waste of time or not if they don't try it first?

Decent A level grades are not to say that everything will be great at the Uni.
Also what if a 17 years old kid wasn't giving it his all however they could do much better at the Uni due to the different approach needed?

Give people a chance before judging them.

Tens of thousands of pounds, the tuition fees are a drop in the ocean compared with how much it costs for each student to attend Uni.

If I said I was a brilliant goal keeper do you think I'd get a game at the Nou Camp? No of course not I would have to have proved myself beforehand to even get a trial let alone a place in the side.

Hence why an entrance exam is needed, see if they could hack it or not.

They have the chance to shine with GCSEs and A Levels that are all free.

[Bolton Midnight]

Only the rich cream will stay afloat in the end?!

OK, now it's really good night time. ;)

No, money has no bearing on it.

If you are bright then you will succeed, simple as.........

[Bolton Midnight]

But then how do you think that ties in with increasing fees?

The two are not connected, the fees have to be paid as there are too many kids attending Uni and Labour spunked away all our money.

Universities should be a lot more selective in terms of whom they accept for the good of the nation, the financial savings of that are just a bonus.

[ArrowsFA1]

Apprenticeships just don't exist anymore...
This is rather going off topic but as someone working in education & training I can tell you that apprenticeships are very much the focus of attention at the moment. Students are being encouraged to look at apprenticeships as an option and employers are being encouraged to take them on - http://www.apprenticeships.org

[Bezza]

A far from stupid course, surely, given that sexual health is an important field of academic medical research?

I studied sex at uni, I think a lot of students do you know :D

[Bolton Midnight]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/2297395/David-Beckham-degree-at-Staffordshire.html

http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/courses/undergraduate/1645/BSc+%28Hons%29+Surf+Science+and+Technology

[AndySpeed]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/2297395/David-Beckham-degree-at-Staffordshire.html

http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/courses/undergraduate/1645/BSc+%28Hons%29+Surf+Science+and+Technology

Take a break!

[Drew]

http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/courses/undergraduate/1645/BSc+%28Hons%29+Surf+Science+and+Technology

You do realise that surfing plays an important role in the economy in Devon and Cornwall? Do you know they're trying to make surfing a bigger business too? did you know only 1 module is actually going to the beach and surfing? Or is it simply better to judge a book by its cover?

[MrMetro]

This is rather going off topic but as someone working in education & training I can tell you that apprenticeships are very much the focus of attention at the moment. Students are being encouraged to look at apprenticeships as an option and employers are being encouraged to take them on - http://www.apprenticeships.org

Indeed, I am in the process of sorting out an apprenticeship :)

[Bolton Midnight]

You do realise that surfing plays an important role in the economy in Devon and Cornwall? Do you know they're trying to make surfing a bigger business too? did you know only 1 module is actually going to the beach and surfing? Or is it simply better to judge a book by its cover?

Perhaps they could build a 500 million pound Uni on Anglesey and another one for motor sport at Croft

[Drew]

Perhaps they could build a 500 million pound Uni on Anglesey and another one for motor sport at Croft

The Bangor University has some courses on Anglesey and you can study various motorsport related degrees throughout the country. You do realise that Plymouth isn't JUST a surf university, right?

[Bolton Midnight]

Myerscough do motor sport, not sure if Frank Williams, Bernie Eccelestone, Christian Horner did a degree course in running a F1 team though.

Maybe I missed that bit of their CVs

But build these new Unis anyroad not like the country is skint is it?

Ignoring the Beckham Degree are we?

Utter waste of my money, spend my money on decent worthwhile degrees.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Myerscough do motor sport, not sure if Frank Williams, Bernie Eccelestone, Christian Horner did a degree course in running a F1 team though.

Maybe I missed that bit of their CVs

The Motorsport course at Merscough College is essentially a mechanical engineering course.




Ignoring the Beckham Degree are we?

Utter waste of my money, spend my money on decent worthwhile degrees.

And there is no such thing as a David Beckham degree. He was just a very small part of the syllabus.

Part of my degree looked at how social media can be used a marketing tool for businesses. This doesn't mean I did degree in Facebook. :rolleyes:

[Bolton Midnight]

You do realise that Plymouth isn't JUST a surf university, right?

No you can do such essential life sustaining degrees as

TV Arts, Dieting, Dance, Ocean Exploration, Photography, Graphic Communication with Typography and various other complete and utter waste of time courses.

[Bolton Midnight]

The Motorsport course at Merscough College is essentially a mechanical engineering course.

And there is no such thing as a David Beckham degree. He was just a very small part of the syllabus.

You sure?

* BSc (Hons) Motorsport Management and Logistics
* FdSc Motorsport Management and Logistics

Sound just like the sort of thing Ken Tyrrell would have found invaluable.

That Zetec Escort goes well mind.

A degree course discussing Beckham's hair do - so essential

[MrMetro]

http://www.collegedegree.com/library/college-life/top-25-strangest

[driveace]

[quote="Brown, Jon Brow"]The Motorsport course at Merscough College is essentially a mechanical engineering course.
really? why does a friend of mine teach about running a rally team and navigation etc.Thay have at one time run a racing car and a rally car from Myerscough College.Or have You been doing the course?

[Brown, Jon Brow]

really? why does a friend of mine teach about running a rally team and navigation etc.Thay have at one time run a racing car and a rally car from Myerscough College.Or have You been doing the course?

I have attended open days at Merscough College. A huge bulk of that course is mechanical engineering for the colleges motorsport activities. There might teach an odd segment about team management.

[Bolton Midnight]

I have attended open days at Merscough College. A huge bulk of that course is mechanical engineering for the colleges motorsport activities. There might teach an odd segment about team management.

Odd that they name the courses as they have done then, bit misleading to the potential students.

I too went to the original open day as all the local car clubs were invited.

But if there's to be a cull of worthless degrees motor sport wouldn't be in my targets, there's plenty far worse than need doing away with before that.

[race aficionado]

Sorry if this has been mentioned before . . . or not . . . but I found this young kid very energetic and enthusiastic.
I wonder and hope that there are many more smart kids like this one that are starting to pay attention and realize that it's their time to shine and make a difference.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-U_gHUiL4P8&feature=player_embedded

[ArrowsFA1]

A degree course discussing Beckham's hair do - so essential
Perhaps you missed this, or deliberately ignored it.

And there is no such thing as a David Beckham degree. He was just a very small part of the syllabus.

Part of my degree looked at how social media can be used a marketing tool for businesses. This doesn't mean I did degree in Facebook. :rolleyes:

If you ignore the Torygraph's simplistic and misleading headline you will see that in fact students of Sport, Media and Culture were examining the rise of football from its folk origins in the 17th century to the central place it occupies in British culture.

But then that wouldn't have made a very interesting point would it :dozey:

[Drew]

Ignoring the Beckham Degree are we?


Yes, because I don't know anything about it. Unlike some people in the world I'm not going to put my unfounded, narrow minded and stupid viewpoints across about things I have no idea about.

[ioan]

No you can do such essential life sustaining degrees as

TV Arts, Dieting, Dance, Ocean Exploration, Photography, Graphic Communication with Typography and various other complete and utter waste of time courses.

Now you are also judging what is useful for the society and what not?
All this based on your immense knowledge that we are yet to get a glimpse of. :\

[ioan]

Thay have at one time run a racing car and a rally car from Myerscough College.

Who?! :rolleyes:

[Bolton Midnight]

Sorry if this has been mentioned before . . . or not . . . but I found this young kid very energetic and enthusiastic.
I wonder and hope that there are many more smart kids like this one that are starting to pay attention and realize that it's their time to shine and make a difference.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-U_gHUiL4P8&feature=player_embedded

Tell you what it does demonstrate

That they are clueless and haven't understood the changes, if they had they would know that they are in fact better off now

Clueless spotty herberts , thank God they can't vote and why can't they vote, because their opinions are worthless

[Bolton Midnight]

Now you are also judging what is useful for the society and what not?
All this based on your immense knowledge that we are yet to get a glimpse of. :\

So how does a degree about David Beckham benefit the UK?

[ShiftingGears]

So how does a degree about David Beckham benefit the UK?

David Beckham durp de durppppp

I'm guessing because you're latching onto phrases spoonfed to you rather than actual nuances and basic facts surrounding this degree you're talking about, you would probably miss that it would be advantageous in things like sports management and general marketing.

Which benefits the economy because then people will want to buy the stupid hair gel that their soccer idol is flogging because some marketer/manager is exploiting his public persona/appearance which is shaped by the marketers and the managers.

[ArrowsFA1]

So how does a degree about David Beckham benefit the UK?
It doesn't because there is no such thing, although you do seem to have fascination with the idea :p :

[driveace]

Who?! :rolleyes:
Now if we are picking up on spelling faults ioan,then look back at some of your last items posted in the last few days,and you made some too!!!!!!
Or are you mr perfect?

[Malbec]

TV Arts, Dieting, Dance, Ocean Exploration, Photography, Graphic Communication with Typography and various other complete and utter waste of time courses.

Given that the courses are going to be charged per year it will be the longer courses such as medicine and engineering that will most likely see a drop in interest. Since a medical degree will cost up to 54k purely for the course itself, not to mention the extra living and travelling expenses that such a degree entails, its safe to say that poorer students will be discouraged from applying. Instead we'll see a move back to how things were before with merely the already well off being able to contemplate studying medicine.

As for the effect on engineering, for a country that supposedly wants to boost manufacturing in order to wean itself off the financial sector in the future, discouraging students from studying that discipline seems to indicate a lack of foresight to say the least. Maybe we can import engineers in the future, if only there wasn't an immigration cap...

In fact I foresee an increase in the number of 'useless' courses you describe, after all they are far cheaper for the universities to run and are therefore more profitable as well as being more affordable for students.

[BDunnell]

Now if we are picking up on spelling faults ioan,then look back at some of your last items posted in the last few days,and you made some too!!!!!!
Or are you mr perfect?

I have had my strident disagreements with ioan on these forums over the years, but in this instance his contributions are worth defending, being as they are intelligent, well-reasoned and, I think everyone should agree, extraordinarily well-written for someone whose first language is not English. Indeed, the quality of his written English, and indeed that of many other mainland European members, puts that of many English native speakers to shame.

[veeten]

As for the effect on engineering, for a country that supposedly wants to boost manufacturing in order to wean itself off the financial sector in the future, discouraging students from studying that discipline seems to indicate a lack of foresight to say the least. Maybe we can import engineers in the future, if only there wasn't an immigration cap..

Then why not allow independent concerns to fund the establishment of engineering schools. With the prospective clients (Businesses; large, small and in-between) having a say, along with engineering organizations and interested parties working together to devise the standards, ciriculum, and grading for possible students.

[GridGirl]

After leaving school I did the first year of an accountancy vocational training course. After I got the qualification I changed my mind about vocational training straight from school and went on to do A levels the following year. I later went on to to an Accountancy and Finance degree at a red brick university. Due my parents separation some years earlier and me living with my mother I was considered 'poor' enough to go to univsersity for free even though my dad was a doctor.

I graduated from my accountancy degree, training contract with an accountancy firm 6 weeks later and qualified as a chartered accountant 3 years later. Even though I did a degree in the area that I later went on to work in I would still consider my degree to have been about 98% worthless when it came to do my later training and professional exams. This is not to say that I think my time at university was 98% useless. In terms of the life experience and the person I became because of university I think my decision to scrap vocational training after one year was the probably the best decision I have ever made in my life. I really do not think that I would have got to the professional position that I am today if I hadn't decided to go to university. I suppose that sounds easy for me to say because I went to university for free but I am pretty sure I would say the same thing if I had paid £9k per year.

There is a trainee at work who reminds me of the person I probably would have been if I hadn't have gone to university. She is extremely shy, she doesn't really want to interact with client's or us for that matter and she has previously refused to go out to a client premises if she hasn't had time for her mum to go on a reconnaissance drive there before hand with her. In less than a year she could be a qualified accountant on a salary of around £30k but be 'too expensive' in terms of charge out rates to do the job's she feel's comfortable with. If I was the boss I would be wanting to sack her the moment she gets her exam results. That sounds harsh and cruel but in reality she is a dead weight to the firm. I think the university experience is one that could have either made her or unfortunately broken her.

Personally, I think university made me but hey what do I know. I'm just a boring accountant. :p

[ioan]

Now if we are picking up on spelling faults ioan,then look back at some of your last items posted in the last few days,and you made some too!!!!!!
Or are you mr perfect?

Spelling mistakes in a thread about higher education have to be sanctioned, especially when the poster who makes the mistakes is against free higher education.

[BDunnell]

Spelling mistakes in a thread about higher education have to be sanctioned, especially when the poster who makes the mistakes is against free higher education.

There is also the irony of British people with such a poor grasp of English having the gall to comment on a matter such as the UK's higher education system in the first place.

[Daniel]

There is also the irony of British people with such a poor grasp of English having the gall to comment on a matter such as the UK's higher education system in the first place.
It's Germans like you who really get their goat! Fritz is bloody coming over here telling us how to speak our (pronounced arr incidently) language! Well I've had enough! :p

[Bolton Midnight]

Perhaps you missed this, or deliberately ignored it.

If you ignore the Torygraph's simplistic and misleading headline you will see that in fact students of Sport, Media and Culture were examining the rise of football from its folk origins in the 17th century to the central place it occupies in British culture.

But then that wouldn't have made a very interesting point would it :dozey:

Ahh so if it is Mail or Telegraph it has to be wrong, how utterly unbiased

It's a worthless degree course, am sure it could be covered in 1 year at the local college of knowledge.

[Bolton Midnight]

Now if we are picking up on spelling faults ioan,then look back at some of your last items posted in the last few days,and you made some too!!!!!!
Or are you mr perfect?

Standard practice when they haven't a decent / worthwhile reply

If in doubt / floundering - then spell check

[Bolton Midnight]

Given that the courses are going to be charged per year it will be the longer courses such as medicine and engineering that will most likely see a drop in interest. Since a medical degree will cost up to 54k purely for the course itself, not to mention the extra living and travelling expenses that such a degree entails, its safe to say that poorer students will be discouraged from applying. Instead we'll see a move back to how things were before with merely the already well off being able to contemplate studying medicine.

As for the effect on engineering, for a country that supposedly wants to boost manufacturing in order to wean itself off the financial sector in the future, discouraging students from studying that discipline seems to indicate a lack of foresight to say the least. Maybe we can import engineers in the future, if only there wasn't an immigration cap...

In fact I foresee an increase in the number of 'useless' courses you describe, after all they are far cheaper for the universities to run and are therefore more profitable as well as being more affordable for students.

No

The students don't have to pay anything until they have finished and are earning so whether their mummy and daddy earn £1m a month or £25k it makes no difference to what they will have to pay AFTER qualifying.

As I've said it is in fact a fairer system than the existing one and that is why anybody that has read and understood it is for it, the only ones against it are those who hear and believe the headlines.

[AndySpeed]

Ahh so if it is Mail or Telegraph it has to be wrong, how utterly unbiased

To be honest I wouldn't wipe my arse with the Daily Mail because it's already covered in ****. What a sorry excuse for a newspaper, predominantly read by bigoted moronic excuses for members of society.

It's that bad that it makes me feel so strongly. It's not bias if it's reporting is that bad.

The Telegraph is more acceptable in my view.

[AndySpeed]

p.s. What are you doing up at this time of night BM? My excuse is that I'm a student :p :