2011 FIA WRC Regulations

[Sulland]

Think this one deserves its own thread:
http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/109E49B9DD01C9C2C12577EE0064D37A/$FILE/WRC%20Regs&Appx%202011.pdf


As far as I can see some supporting regs, as the new R4 and RGT is yet not published, or is it ?

[navtheace]

Pages 13 & 14 are the ones to look at. Lot of merging of classes there. Will some be phased out over time?

[Mirek]

For sure but be aware that this is valid only for World Rally Chmpionship.

[Sulland]

But as we suspected both R4 and RGT are in as new classes, when can we expect the detailed tech regs being published ?

Today is 5 Dec and first rally is aprox 8 weeks away !!

[OldF]

Only WRC sporting regulations so far.

By the google translation of autosport.cz above, I understand the WMSC meeting would be 10th of December.

Things that caught my attention:

- One new article (255A) to group A (A5, A6, A7 and S2000, page 13)
- “Group RGT cars conforming to 2011 Addendix J Article 256.” So far article 256 has been for group B cars.
- S2000 with 1.6T engine is in it’s own class (class 1).

[pantealex]

If I understand correctly: R4 cars are in SWRC, not in PWRC
page13 4.2
page14 4.6

[OldF]

Today probably all the commissions (WRC, rally, homologations & technical etc.) had their meetings and tomorrow is the WMSC meeting. Hope we will have some info also tomorrow.

Probably WMSC stop working early tomorrow because in the evening it’s party time (FIA Awards Gala) and they probably want to have few beers before that.

:monkeedan :hot: :beer:

[Sulland]

There has been made aprox 260 s2000 cars in 4 seasons. How long will it take to get to those numbers with 1,6T cars ?

The prices on both SP and WRC will be btw 100 000 and 200 000€ more than a S2000, that is expensive enough.

Will privateers have money enough to be able to buy them, or will they flop - and FIA will have to get back to the drawing board ?

[OldF]

There has been made aprox 260 s2000 cars in 4 seasons. How long will it take to get to those numbers with 1,6T cars ?

The prices on both SP and WRC will be btw 100 000 and 200 000€ more than a S2000, that is expensive enough.

Will privateers have money enough to be able to buy them, or will they flop - and FIA will have to get back to the drawing board ?

If you ask my opinion it would like this.

As the S2000 cars are today (NA 2000 cc), they’re homologation should be allowed beyond 2010 (they’ve have so nice sound and they’re also lot cheaper).

The SP version of WRC cars should be made equal in performance by finding a restrictor size that’s equal with a performance of a S2000 NA car.

The higher price of a SP would be the “punishment” for a driver who wants to attend both regional and WRC events.

[HaCo]

Why is the SP so much more expensive than the NA? Where is the difference except for the turbo? How is the transmission regulated (like S2000, limited number of choices???)? Or is it just because it's the first cars delivered and you need 2 years of production to get the normal price?

[Sulland]

Why is the SP so much more expensive than the NA? Where is the difference except for the turbo? How is the transmission regulated (like S2000, limited number of choices???)? Or is it just because it's the first cars delivered and you need 2 years of production to get the normal price?

The only price we have right now is from the Mini, and the "cheap" gold package has more than just the car in it: http://www.motoringfile.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Mini-rally-car-sales-package.pdf

So lets see what the price end up with. Remember that FIA is moving other racing categories in the 1600T direction well, that should bring the price down on the engine at least, when volumes increase.

Looking at the 2nd hand market on S2000, 207s are now at 180 000 euro, that is still a huge amount of money for a privat team, when you can get a Evo 9 Gr N for aprox 40 000. Not sure what an R4 upgrade will cost, but not that much.

That is why FIA need to simplify the rules, to keep the cost down and number of cars up ;)

The Maxirally concept in some shape or form, not a bad idea - more standard parts to keep cost down, at least at the 2nd echelon of cars.

[Hartusvuori]

Speaking of car prices, on the latest edition of Martin Holmes' Pirelli World Rallying books there's a feature on Phil Mills' and John O'Connor's Viking Motorsports that prepare mostly Mk II Escorts for Historic rallies. Article says that they sell cars for around £110 000 - £120 000 (around €130 000 - €140 000). That sounds awfully lot for a historic rally car, though Viking Motorsports makes them as top spec as possible within regulations. It also says that even if an N4 Impreza would cost only 10-20% more to buy as a new, the Mk II Escort will keep its price much better over the first years.

[OldF]

Why is the SP so much more expensive than the NA? Where is the difference except for the turbo? How is the transmission regulated (like S2000, limited number of choices???)? Or is it just because it's the first cars delivered and you need 2 years of production to get the normal price?

The main reason for the price difference between S2000 NA and SP is the direct injection engine. If Citroen would sell their DS3 WRC I just wonder what the price would be because Citroen uses a purpose in house design and build engine.

I don’t think the gearbox has any part in the price difference because e.g. Fiesta S2000 and Skoda S2000 uses a gearbox that can cope with 600 Nm torque which also should be enough for a 1.6T engine.

The price of Mini SP is about 405.000 € and the price of S2000 Fiesta is 280.000 € (Janne Tuohino). Subtracting the price (45.000 €) for a S2000 NA engine from 280.000 € leaves 235.000 € for the rest of the cars. The difference between Mini SP and Fiesta S2000 is now 405.000 – 235.000 = 170.000 € which would be the price for a direct injection 1.6T engine.

It’s of course little bit difficult to say how accurate this result is because the result is calculated by the prices of two different brands and cars. But I think we will have more accurate figures when Skoda updates their S2000 with a 1.6T engine.

And then there is the question when we have only one brand with a SP car. It depends much about their (Prodrive) pricing policy.

[OldF]

After reading the new WRC car's regulations little more thoroughly I noticed that the boost seems to be “only” 1,5 bar.

- Turbo pressure: maximum = 2.5b absolute

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/92B8777DD7239078C1257802003B3157/$FILE/255A_2011.pdf (page 3)

[dimviii]

lets see how far they can go with only 1,5 bar!

[Gordini]

On the Swedenrally site the classes are strange to me, are they new, and what do them mean?

[Mirek]

Yes, new FIA classes but sometimes wrong...

WRC 1.6T - only for WRC events

Everywhere:
1 - S2000 1.6T
2 - S2000 2.0 N/A, R4
3 - N4
4 - RGT
5 - S1600, R3C, R3T, R3D, A7, R2C
6 - R2B, A6, A6VK
7 - A5VK, A5
8 - N3
9 - R1B, N2
10 - R1A, N1

[Sulland]

So both SP and WRC would be class 1 during a WRC event - no split btw those two, or does it mean that you will have to upgrade your SP to a WRC if you want to do your local wrc event ?

[OldF]

So both SP and WRC would be class 1 during a WRC event - no split btw those two, or does it mean that you will have to upgrade your SP to a WRC if you want to do your local wrc event ?

No, WRC is it’s own class in WRC events. In regional championships WRC cars are not allowed. In national rallies it’s up to the local ASN to allow or not WRC cars.

Here, page 13: http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/679D8CA3F3DF8F09C12577F50055956F/$FILE/WRC%20Regs&Appx%202011.pdf

[wwbroe]

So both SP and WRC would be class 1 during a WRC event - no split btw those two, or does it mean that you will have to upgrade your SP to a WRC if you want to do your local wrc event ?

Superproduction uses the 1,6T S2000 so it will be class 1 :D

[Sulland]

So if the only difference btw a WRC and SP engine is 32 and 33 mm restrictor, what will that do to the figures in HP and NM ?

[Mirek]

It's not 33 and 32 mm. In the moment it's both 33 mm but it will probably change for S2000 1.6T.

[OldF]

It’s not decided yet or at least isn’t published. Should be before 15th of February.

From “2011 WRC sporting regulations and appendices” published 17.12.2010

"Super 2000 cars fitted with a 1.6-liter turbo engine with a restrictor (the size of which to be announced before 15 February 2011)"

I downloaded the versions of “2011 WRC sporting regulations and appendices” that were published 13th and 17th of December but the version that is on FIA’s web site at the moment is published 10th of December. Strange????

[Sulland]

So if the only difference btw a WRC and SP engine is 32 and 33 mm restrictor, what will that do to the figures in HP and NM ?

Ok guys, but for arguments sake; what figures do we expect the 1600T engine to have in WRC trim in Sweden, and reducing the restrictor with 1mm, what will the figures be then ?

[Zico]

Im sure its not as simple as this and OldF will be along to eplain it all shortly ;) but 350 (bhp) divided by 33 x 32 = 339 to give a rough figure?

[Mirek]

This mathematics is wrong. I think it's possible to do a rough estimation based on restrictor size but You must count with area, not only diameter.

[OldF]

Mirek could have done this explanation easily.

As Mirek already said, the estimation should be made using the area, not diameter.

To start from the beginning the area of circle is A = pii * d^2 / 4. When comparing restrictors with different diameters, the pii / 4 can be left out because it’s same in both cases and the comparison can be made as follows: d1^2 / d2^2.

Calculating different coefficients for smaller restrictors taking the 33 mm restrictor as a base.

32^2 / 33¨2 = 0,94
31^2 / 33^2 = 0,88
30^2 / 33^2 = 0,83

What the power for a 1.6T engine is, is a good question. Subaru with a 33 mm restrictor has 290 ps / 570 Nm (http://www.tommimakinen.net/) and a Mitsubishi evo X has 320-330 ps / 580 – 620 Nm with 2,2 bar boost (http://www.rallyforum.com/forums/showthread.php?140587-WRCar-10-amp-11-Time-difference&p=870396#post870396).

What I’ve found out a direct injection engine has about 12-15% more power and 5-9% more torque with same fuel consumption (= same restrictor size) compared to an indirect injection engine.

Using these as base figures the power of a 1.6T engine could be anywhere between 325 ps (1,12 * 290 ps) and 380 ps (1,15 * 330 ps). The average would be 353 ps.

Assuming the 1.6T engine has 350 ps, the power for the other restrictor sizes would be:
32 mm -> 0,94 * 350 = 329 ps
31 mm -> 0,88 * 350 = 308 ps
30 mm -> 0,83 * 350 = 291 ps

The torque is more dependent on cylinder capacity than power. Roughly the torque of a 1600 cc engine compared to a 2000 cc engine is 1600 / 2000 = 80 %. If a Mitsubishi evo 9 (32 mm restrictor) has about 570 Nm torque with 1,7-1,9 bar boost (I think Dimviii could give some more accurate figures) then for a 1600 cc engine it would be 570 * 0,8 = 456 Nm. The new WRC cars have “only” 1,5 bar boost (2,5 bar absolute) so the 456 Nm with 1,7-1,9 bar boost would be maybe about 400 Nm with 1,5 bar boost (a drop of 10-20 Nm per 0,1 bar boost?). With about 5-9% more torque for a direct injection engine the torque would be 420-436 Nm.

M-Sport says that their WRC Fiesta has 450 Nm @ 4000 rpm and I think could be close to actual figures.

OK, these are only estimations and what the real figures are can be a subject of speculations as the power and torque of the previous WRC cars. Here are few links for direct injection engines.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2010/09/bluedirect-20100907.html

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-10399881-48.html

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/11/theta2gdi-20091117.html

http://www.emercedesbenz.com/autos/mercedes-benz/e-class/brabus-adds-more-power-to-your-mercedes-benz-cgi-blueefficiency/

http://cars.about.com/od/thingsyouneedtoknow/a/directinjection.htm

http://www.greencarcongress.com/topics.html

[Zico]

I always enjoy reading your posts OldF, always very informative, so much detail and accurate analysis. Very enlightening, thanks!

[OldF]

I always enjoy reading your posts OldF, always very informative, so much detail and accurate analysis. Very enlightening, thanks!

Thanks Zico.

Nice to know that at least one forum member reads my posts. :)

[dimviii]

Thanks Zico.

Nice to know that at least one forum member reads my posts. :)

Be sure that there in not only one

[bretddog]

Assuming the 1.6T engine has 350 ps,
...
M-Sport says that their WRC Fiesta has 450 Nm @ 4000 rpm and I think could be close to actual figures.


fyi, Mads Østberg commented a few days ago the specs as; 330 ps?hp and 550 Nm. Video: (Norwegian) http://www.dagbladet.no/2011/02/04/sport/rally/mads_ostberg/15316583/

Other stuff he says:
- engine; a lot of the electronics removed, which makes it cheaper to run/service the car
- all electronic in-car (assistance) adjustments are banned/removed
- everything is basically mechanical, as if we've gone 10, almost 20 years back, with much simpler rules, that makes the car more difficult to drive.
- it will depend much more on the driver than before

Not sure how accurate he is for the tabloid-reporters, but anyway, that's his presentation.

[OldF]

fyi, Mads Østberg commented a few days ago the specs as; 330 ps?hp and 550 Nm. Video: (Norwegian) http://www.dagbladet.no/2011/02/04/sport/rally/mads_ostberg/15316583/

Other stuff he says:
- engine; a lot of the electronics removed, which makes it cheaper to run/service the car
- all electronic in-car (assistance) adjustments are banned/removed
- everything is basically mechanical, as if we've gone 10, almost 20 years back, with much simpler rules, that makes the car more difficult to drive.
- it will depend much more on the driver than before

Not sure how accurate he is for the tabloid-reporters, but anyway, that's his presentation.

Thanks for the info.

Also FVS told in the Fiesta thread that by his source the Fiesta has about the same torque so I must start to believe the Fiesta can have that much torque.

About the power I think we can say that the Fiesta has at least 330 PS.

[Sulland]

OldF and the others; get out your calculators: 30 mm restrictor vs 30: http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=no&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=cs&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.autosport.cz%2Fclanek.php%3Fcl% 3D11727

What will the differences be ?

[Zico]

Thanks for the info.

Also FVS told in the Fiesta thread that by his source the Fiesta has about the same torque so I must start to believe the Fiesta can have that much torque.

About the power I think we can say that the Fiesta has at least 330 PS.


From a reliable source and if iirc, it was Hirvonen who was quoted on saying that the Fiesta WRC is faster through the 1st three gears than the Focus WRC, it would tie in with Lorioux's comments that they could be quicker in the slower events such as Acropolis.

[bt52b]

FIA Regional Rally Championships
11/02/2011

Following a fax vote by the members of the World Motor Sport Council, the regulation (Article 255A, Appendix J, 5.1.1.b) relating to the size of the restrictor in the 1.6 litre turbo-charged Super 2000 car has been confirmed as 30mm. This applies to all such cars competing in 2011 FIA Regional Rally Championship events.

This regulation is intended to balance the performance of cars powered by 2 litre normally-aspirated engines and 1.6 litre turbo-charged cars.
http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/pressreleases/wrc/2011/Pages/fia-regional-rally.aspx

[Sulland]

What will be the name of this new class, that will be the top class in many National Championships: the one with 1600T and 30 mm restrictor?

Mini has called it Super Production, but that car is not a production car, but based on the S2000 rules.

The name S2000 is already taken by the NA cars, and has been since 2006 and will be for many years to come. Since it is 1600, that would make Joe Public scratch his head if called S2000

What would be a good name for the new car type, maybe R5 ?

[RICARDO75]

What will be the name of this new class, that will be the top class in many National Championships: the one with 1600T and 30 mm restrictor?

Mini has called it Super Production, but that car is not a production car, but based on the S2000 rules.

The name S2000 is already taken by the NA cars, and has been since 2006 and will be for many years to come. Since it is 1600, that would make Joe Public scratch his head if called S2000

What would be a good name for the new car type, maybe R5 ?

I think R5 wouldn't be the right name. Maybe ST1600 or just RC (Rally Car)

[bt52b]

I think R5 wouldn't be the right name. Maybe ST1600 or just RC (Rally Car)

If I remember rightly the qoute from Morrie Chandler was that Super Production would include S2000 and N4. So it wouldn't be much of stretch to also include R4 and S2000 1.6T.

Super Production is a better name, better marketing and easier to explain that S2000 2.0l, S2000 1.6T, N4 and R4.

[Sulland]

Morrie is out and Jarmo and Michele are in, so who knows what will happen?

[Mirek]

If I remember rightly the qoute from Morrie Chandler was that Super Production would include S2000 and N4. So it wouldn't be much of stretch to also include R4 and S2000 1.6T.

Super Production is a better name, better marketing and easier to explain that S2000 2.0l, S2000 1.6T, N4 and R4.

That's already over with new wind in FIA. Gr.N is one class (3), S2000 + R4 is another class (2) and S2000 1.6T is another one (1).

[Co-driven]

These new World Rally Cars have to be homologated first as a S2000 car, right?

If yes, is there a homologation for the DS3, in S2000 specs?

[Mirek]

Yes it is. Although Citroën would tell You opposite.

[Brother John]

Yes it is. Although Citroën would tell You opposite.


Citroën and the FIA are both French that is the solution! :s mokin:

[Mirek]

You get me wrong. To homologate WRC they really had to homologate S2000 1.6T so they did at 1st January. It's given by the rules. Citroën and Ford just pretends that it's not ready to keep new cars in house for overpriced renting.

[Rallyper]

BTW, I really hope that the teams can try to stay at this level and make the cars they drive equal to the privateers driving the same cars. everything else will spoil the new feelings in the sport of 2011...
e.g. they shouldn´t homologate new parts that aren´t available for the private teams.

[Mirek]

I was told that according to the rules every part homologated must be for sale available for everyone for price limited by the rules. Also much more things than before are homologated including software, cables etc. But for sure there are still things like engine mapping or anti-lag settings...

[Co-driven]

Yes it is. Although Citroën would tell You opposite.

Thanks Mirek for your answer.


Unfortunately, I think that the manufacturers are going to find a way to make their cars better, in comparison with the privateers. I don't think it's good for a works team to have non-official car getting ahead of them.

[CWJ]

Yes it is. Although Citroën would tell You opposite.

No, they pointed out to have had one car without front and rear spoilers for homologation purposes only that disappeared at citroen sports vault again ;)

[Mirek]

They had to build at least ten pieces of every part to obtain homologation ;)

[Gard]

Manufactorers can also tune inside homologtion. An homologated part is within a spec(range). So some parts will be better than others, within that spec. Manufactorers will tune their cars, with the parts with the most optimal spec. With all optimal parts put together, this can be quite some difference. Probably will the parts used by the factory team, be tuned with the closest tolerance to the optimal spec. Other teams will not even have a clue what is optimal spec, without serious testing and part tuning.

[OldF]

These are just my speculating so don’t take them so seriously.

Now when the restrictor size is decided for the SP version, one thing that I’m thinking about is what the revs will be for those cars. Looking at the Swedish rally Mikko was using revs between 6000 – 8000 rpm.

Assuming the gear change for a WRC is at about 8000 rpm and calculated by the restrictor size, the gear change for a SP with would be at about (30*30/33*33*8000) 6600 rpm. By that the peak power would be around 5000-5500 rpm. The sound could be little better than for the N4 cars but as it’s difficult to assess what the real revs would be and maybe we have to wait and see (listen) how those cars will sound.

The same thing is assessing the torque. Calculating with the restrictor area size, which is about 83% of the 33 mm restrictor, the torque could be 0,83*550Nm = 456 Nm. But also the same torque as the WRC cars have could be achieved at lower revs but that depends much on the turbo used. A turbo has the best efficiency on certain revs and that depends much how the engine can “boost” the turbo.

[OldF]

There seems to be four different main components in the 2011 WRC homologations.

The group A homologation
The engine (page 1)
Super 2000 1.6 turbo (KSR)
The WRC kit (WR)

Citroen on page 14 and Ford on page 24.

Mini has done the Group A (page 6) homologation but nothing else yet.

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/5801DDF00C059730C12578460037BBC8/$FILE/ToutesVoitures_01.03.2011.pdf

[Sulland]

So can we now take it that the new class 1 cars will be called S2000, even if they have a 1600 engine, and that name is already taken ?

[OldF]

There are some minor updates to the rules. Not any dramatic changes.

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/sport/regulations/Pages/InternationalSportingCodeA.aspx

Appendix J 2011

[Sulland]

This discussion belongs more here:



Armindo is on Classe 1...

Is the same situation of call a "S2000" to a car that as a 1600 Turbo engine. Completely non-sense.

By the way, "SP" is a label from Prodrive, is not oficial. The oficial is "S2000"... but now they have "S2000 WRC" and "S2000 Regional" :D

Yes calling a 1600 car S2000, that already is a class and where the 2000 figure direct goes towards the cylinder volume is not logical at all !!

But now it seems we have 3 cars specs with 1600T engine

WRC: all singing all dancing 1600T engine, S2000 based chassis
S2000 WRC: WRC engine with 33 mm restrictor, but small spoiler and small breaks
S2000 Regional: 30 mm restrictor, small spoiler and small breaks

And none of the last two have recieved a name from either FIA or producers, apart from Mini.

If a guy want to drive one WRC round with his regional car, without changing a bit on the car - what class would he drive in in WRC ?

[OldF]

It would be still class 1. IMO the S2000 1.6T should have it’s own name so it can’t be confused with the S2000 NA.

[J.Lindstroem]

It would be still class 1. IMO the S2000 1.6T should have it’s own name so it can’t be confused with the S2000 NA.

Thats a perfectly logical solution. But the FIA doesnt seem to be ran by logical people!

[Sulland]

So what should the 3 1600T classes be called in your opinion ?

[Mirek]

There won't be any 3 1600T class anymore next year. I understand that it's only provision for first year when there is too little of them and no-one knows how fast they actually are. Next year, when it's clear how fast they are compared to other classes I expect all S2000 1.6T to have same restrictor no matter the championship. Personally I expect something between 30 and 33 to make them slower than WRC and faster than 2.0 N/A.

[OldF]

Maybe this 33 mm restrictor for S2000 is only provisional until Sardegna when the official team introduce the WRC version of the Mini.

And maybe the 33 mm restrictor was allowed in Portugal so that Prodrive could have some kind of picture what the performance of the Mini is.

[pantealex]

So what should the 3 1600T classes be called in your opinion ?

R3T cars (207 and DS3) have also 1600T engines

My opinion:
WRC
1
R3T

[Sulland]

Why not call them S1600T and this year specify the level either by restrictor size (30 and 33) or just call the regional car S1600T Reg.

If they will all be the same next year, call that class S1600T ?

[OldF]

S1600T, that’s what I would also call them. What would be the common name of all the S2000 category cars? There’s already a good name for them; SWRC. Only problem with this name is in the regional championships because it includes the “WRC”. Would SRC be better?

[Sulland]

Ok, so lets call them S1600T, at least in here - for all we know FIA reads more here than we know......