Volkswagen interested in Ferrari

[CNR]

http://www.thechronicle.com.au/story/2010/11/17/volkswagen-interested-ferrari/



VOLKSWAGEN is reportedly looking to add a Prancing Horse to its growing stable of supercar makers.


i guess this would rule out Volkswagen own f1 team

[N4D13]

I don't really believe that FIAT would let Ferrari go, nor would the Ferrari bosses want to be bought by Volkswagen.

[Big Ben]

I'm interested too and I might afford a badge... but the news seems just as relevant as this one :laugh: . If I said that FIAT is going to sell Ferrari to the Volkswagen group now :rolleyes:

[Retro Formula 1]

Oh god, please no.

Ferrari has an identity and history with Fiat. Lets not lose this great marque to corporate Deutcheland.

[Duchess]

Um, how about NOTHX. Volkswagen, please be to staying out of Ferrari.

[ioan]

This would be great! :D

[nigelred5]

Bugatti and Lamborghini seem to be just fine making some truly awesome cars, but the idea of Porsche and Ferrari under the same corporate umbrella is just wrong on so many levels.

That's like Spaten and Lowenbrau being....... oh, wait...

[Valve Bounce]

Maybe we will see a Ferrari powered by an air cooled flat 12. Now that would be something. :eek:

[Hawkmoon]

I wonder how much FIAT would consider selling Ferrari for? Everybody has a price and if VW stump up enough cash then I'm sure FIAT would consider it. Why wouldn't they? I can't see that there are any links between Ferrari and FIAT that makes people want to own FIAT.

[Rollo]

You'd think that VAG would have enough technical expertise via their experience in building the R10s and R15s to build an Audi F1 car. Surely there'd be more historical flag waving in it for them to run a an Auto Union Type E than to want to buy Ferrari.

Mercedes GP vs Auto Union? Let's party like it's 1935!

[D28]

I may be misinformed, but I put no credence to this story whatever. For VW to say they would like to purchase Ferrari is somewhat similar to me saying I would like to own (a) Ferrari. It is not going to happen.

Hawkmoon:

The whole mystique of Italian racing prowness is tied up with the Ferrari record. Anyone who owns a FIAT can relate to that, or at least fantasize about it. Despite FIAT financial problems, and the size of its subsidy to Ferrari, the intangible considerations, industrial prestigue, goodwill and so one, is incalculable.
In 1956, Lancia gave all its cars, spares, engineering data and the incomparable Vittorio Jano to to Ferrari, just to keep Italian motorsport competitive. And Ferrari has been very competitive, their record is unimpeachable.

As to arguments about Lamborghini, while a great design, they never won anything of substance on the track. Ferrari is different, and must remain Italian.

[Valve Bounce]

The whole mystique of Italian racing prowness is tied up with the Ferrari record. Anyone who owns a FIAT can relate to that, or at least fantasize about it. .

There is no more connection between owning a bloody Fiat and relating to Ferrari; no more than me driving around in my Volvo Cross Country and relating to the NAASA space flight to the moon. :rolleyes:

[call_me_andrew]

I think Ford has had dibbs for 45 years now.

[jens]

Ferrari under any other ownership than Italian would sound massively odd, but then again in the world of globalization anything can happen and we just have to get used to these things. For instance Lotus is now Malaysian and Jaguar Indian. How about that? :p :

[Valve Bounce]

. For instance Lotus is now Malaysian and Jaguar Indian. How about that? :p :

And there are strong rumors that they will be renamed Bengal Tigers. :p :

[555-04Q2]

No thanks. Last thing the world needs in VW ruining Ferrari. Step away from the Ferrari please!!!

[UltimateDanGTR]

Ferrari is Italian. It should be owned by Italians.

Volkswagen is German. It should not own Ferrari.

end of.

[MrMetro]

if Volkswagen bought Ferrari, then expect Ferrari F1 cars to be powered by diesel...

[nigelred5]

Not the first time the Germans circled the globe collecting trophies. Ferrari would be one hell of a trophy in their quest of Automobile industry dominance. ;)

[ioan]

I may be misinformed, but I put no credence to this story whatever. For VW to say they would like to purchase Ferrari is somewhat similar to me saying I would like to own (a) Ferrari. It is not going to happen.

You are totally misinformed. Comparing yourself to VW is complete rubbish.
VW have what is needed to purchase the whole FIAT group not only Ferrari.

And when you look to VW's portofolio (Bugatti & Lamborghini) you realize just how uninformed you are.

[ioan]

Ferrari is Italian. It should be owned by Italians.

Volkswagen is German. It should not own Ferrari.

end of.

What about Bugatti and Lamborghini (and a few more less prestigious ones)?!

[ioan]

There is no more connection between owning a bloody Fiat and relating to Ferrari; no more than me driving around in my Volvo Cross Country and relating to the NAASA space flight to the moon. :rolleyes:

:up: Cheers! :)

[D28]

You are totally misinformed. Comparing yourself to VW is complete rubbish.
VW have what is needed to purchase the whole FIAT group not only Ferrari.

And when you look to VW's portofolio (Bugatti & Lamborghini) you realize just how uninformed you are.

You have missed my intended satire, I was talking of an individual Ferrari, not the company, and no I do not see myself as comparable to VW.
I am not uninformed, (a subtle difference to being misinformed) and am well aware of Lamborghini's owners. I pointed out above, that Lamborghini has achieved practically nothing on the track. Ferrari is a very different story.

I do not know of pending business deals between VW and FIAT. I am simply stating an opinion that I cannot see FIAT selling Ferrari to VW. Italian business interests (FIAT), rescued Ferrari from a Ford buyout in the 1960s,
why would they sell now when it is much more successful?

[ioan]

You have missed my intended satire, I was talking of an individual Ferrari, not the company, and no I do not see myself as comparable to VW.
I am not uninformed, (a subtle difference to being misinformed) and am well aware of Lamborghini's owners. I pointed out above, that Lamborghini has achieved practically nothing on the track. Ferrari is a very different story.

I do not know of pending business deals between VW and FIAT. I am simply stating an opinion that I cannot see FIAT selling Ferrari to VW. Italian business interests (FIAT), rescued Ferrari from a Ford buyout in the 1960s,
why would they sell now when it is much more successful?

You forgot to tell us what did Bugatti achieve on track. ;)

Italian, and any other business interests are ruled by money and if, a big IF indeed, FIAT will have to sell Ferrari to the highest bidder than they will do it.

Ferrari was profitable a few years ago however they were not left untouched by the crisis.

I would love to see Ferrari get into proper management hands, people with a vertical back spine. Someone who can build on their strong heritage, instead of the bella figura they have now.

Anyway we can only speculate. :)

[Hawkmoon]

I may be misinformed, but I put no credence to this story whatever. For VW to say they would like to purchase Ferrari is somewhat similar to me saying I would like to own (a) Ferrari. It is not going to happen.

Hawkmoon:

The whole mystique of Italian racing prowness is tied up with the Ferrari record. Anyone who owns a FIAT can relate to that, or at least fantasize about it. Despite FIAT financial problems, and the size of its subsidy to Ferrari, the intangible considerations, industrial prestigue, goodwill and so one, is incalculable.
In 1956, Lancia gave all its cars, spares, engineering data and the incomparable Vittorio Jano to to Ferrari, just to keep Italian motorsport competitive. And Ferrari has been very competitive, their record is unimpeachable.

As to arguments about Lamborghini, while a great design, they never won anything of substance on the track. Ferrari is different, and must remain Italian.

That's all true but it doesn't sell FIATs. It sells Ferraris. If FIAT can get enough cash they'll sell Ferrari, make no mistake. I have no desire to see it happen but business is business and FIAT are run by business men.

On the flip side, VW are also run by business men. There would have to be a sound business case to warrant the probably exhorbidant amount of lucre that FIAT are going to want. To make it worth while the acquisition of Ferrari would have to result in selling more VWs. If Ferrari don't sell FIATs then they'll sell even fewer VWs.

In short, it's not going to happen and heaven forbid if it does.

[Daniel]

isn't going to happen. If Fiat are going to flog off any part of the wedding china it'll be Alfa Romeo.

[Daniel]

P.S I own a Fiat and I don't feel I own part of a Ferrari or anything.....

[pino]

Stop dreaming...neither Ferrari, nor Alfa Romeo will be owned by foreigners ever ! :hmph: :p :

[Daniel]

Pino, an Alfa Romeo sale is very much on the cards. VW are officially on record saying they want Alfa too....

[pino]

Pino, an Alfa Romeo sale is very much on the cards. VW are officially on record saying they want Alfa too....


Want doesn't mean get it ;)

[D28]

You forgot to tell us what did Bugatti achieve on track. ;)

I did not forget, but my main point concerned Italian automobiles. Ettore Bugatti was Italian for sure, but imigrated to Molsheim (Germany), which became France, to start his company. I am aware of their slendid track record, and the fact that they were moribund for many years. They are considered French cars, by most observers, hence the blue colour of many racing models. The name has been revived recently for very exotic, small runs of super cars. Again, it matters little where these autos are produced, or who owns the name.

[D28]

That's all true but it doesn't sell FIATs. It sells Ferraris. If FIAT can get enough cash they'll sell Ferrari, make no mistake. I have no desire to see it happen but business is business and FIAT are run by business men.

On the flip side, VW are also run by business men. There would have to be a sound business case to warrant the probably exhorbidant amount of lucre that FIAT are going to want. To make it worth while the acquisition of Ferrari would have to result in selling more VWs. If Ferrari don't sell FIATs then they'll sell even fewer VWs.

In short, it's not going to happen and heaven forbid if it does.

FIAT is run by businssmen, true, but, what is the current roll of the Agnelli family stake? At one point their holding company controlled FIAT, and the family is mentioned on the web as controlling FIAT since 1899. I know the Agnelli name has been erased by death, but they must still own a large piece of the company. I would think that they would sell any part of the company before Ferrari. Again VW wishing to purchase and the Italians agreeing are two different things. In this case, is blood not thicker than money?

[Daniel]

Want doesn't mean get it ;)

Yes but Alfa Romeo hasn't been profitable since for ever. If VW make the right offer Alfa is theirs....

[mstillhere]

It would never happen.

[Roamy]

Volkswagon with a Ferrari would be like a terd on you New York rare with a bottle of 10 year old cab !!!!

[mstillhere]

That's all true but it doesn't sell FIATs. It sells Ferraris. If FIAT can get enough cash they'll sell Ferrari, make no mistake. I have no desire to see it happen but business is business and FIAT are run by business men.

On the flip side, VW are also run by business men. There would have to be a sound business case to warrant the probably exhorbidant amount of lucre that FIAT are going to want. To make it worth while the acquisition of Ferrari would have to result in selling more VWs. If Ferrari don't sell FIATs then they'll sell even fewer VWs.

In short, it's not going to happen and heaven forbid if it does.

Another reason that needs to be taken in consideration is that Ferrari is not simply a car maker. It's a religion and too see it going would be considered to be a national desaster. It's a rare jewel, that represents so much history and tradition and national pride. All things that are obviously priceless.
http://www.speedlux.com/marchionne-volkswagen-acquiring-alfa-romeo-ferrari-dream/

[D28]

Ferrari is not simply a car maker. It's a religion and too see it going would be considered to be a national desaster. It's a rare jewel, that represents so much history and tradition and national pride. All things that are obviously priceless.

Amen to that, Brother.

[nigelred5]

Oh come on, Look at the millions of Tifosi. We answer to the vatican bells and the sound of a Ferrari V12, not necessarily in that order. :)


It would be heresy for Ferrari to have a foreign majority owner, but the same was said about makes like Rolls Royce, Bentley, Jaguar, Land Rover and Aston Martin, Lamborghini, etc. Foreign ownership probably resulted in maybe not the most soulful, but clearly the best cars any of the above has ever produced. VW wouldn't be so daft as to change the "soul" of a Ferrari, but they might just throw Ferrari some cash it hasn't really ever had.



What sucks is this is all about Fiat trying to make some cash so it can have a go at the American market with Fiat and Alfa and hopefully make Chrysler at least self sustaining.

[Daniel]

Oh come on, Look at the millions of Tifosi. We answer to the vatican bells and the sound of a Ferrari V12, not necessarily in that order. :)


It would be heresy for Ferrari to have a foreign majority owner, but the same was said about makes like Rolls Royce, Bentley, Jaguar, Land Rover and Aston Martin, Lamborghini, etc. Foreign ownership probably resulted in maybe not the most soulful, but clearly the best cars any of the above has ever produced. VW wouldn't be so daft as to change the "soul" of a Ferrari, but they might just throw Ferrari some cash it hasn't really ever had.



What sucks is this is all about Fiat trying to make some cash so it can have a go at the American market with Fiat and Alfa and hopefully make Chrysler at least self sustaining.

There's far more potential for money to be made selling Fiats to millions of people than Ferrari's to a few thousand.

I still reckon Alfa is going to VW though. Lets just hope it doesn't end up like Seat and being red sporty VW's rather than yellow sporty VW's (Seat's)

[ioan]

It would be heresy for Ferrari to have a foreign majority owner, but the same was said about makes like Rolls Royce, Bentley, Jaguar, Land Rover and Aston Martin, Lamborghini, etc. Foreign ownership probably resulted in maybe not the most soulful, but clearly the best cars any of the above has ever produced. VW wouldn't be so daft as to change the "soul" of a Ferrari, but they might just throw Ferrari some cash it hasn't really ever had.

Exactly.
A VW take over wouldn't be bad for Ferrari, au contraire!

[Daniel]

Exactly.
A VW take over wouldn't be bad for Ferrari, au contraire!
Sadly as we can see from our friends Steffano and Luca, management is not the strong point of Italians these days.

[mstillhere]

I doubt Fiat will sell Ferrari anytime soon but calling it a religion?? Its a prestige car company mate with alot of glamour, and history but I think you're bigging it up abit more than it is. A good friend of mine Fabio would say Lazio is a religion in his region.. :p

It is for me. :)

[mstillhere]

There's far more potential for money to be made selling Fiats to millions of people than Ferrari's to a few thousand.

I still reckon Alfa is going to VW though. Lets just hope it doesn't end up like Seat and being red sporty VW's rather than yellow sporty VW's (Seat's)

I don't know if have read newpaper articles on the subject. Marchionne and any other FIAT group representitive has dismissed the whole thing as a laughing matter.
And if VW likes Ferrari so much and SOOOOOO much money why can't they make their own?? What are they afraid of??? I am sure their "Ferrari" would be so much better than the real Ferrari.

[nigelred5]

Sadly as we can see from our friends Steffano and Luca, management is not the strong point of Italians these days.


Nor has it ever been. The 80's and early 90's were pretty bad for Ferrari, especially the F1 squad. Took a German, a frenchmen and an englishman to right the ship. Sounds like the beginning of a good joke LOL

[Daniel]

I don't know if have read newpaper articles on the subject. Marchionne and any other FIAT group representitive has dismissed the whole thing as a laughing matter.
And if VW likes Ferrari so much and SOOOOOO much money why can't they make their own?? What are they afraid of??? I am sure their "Ferrari" would be so much better than the real Ferrari.

Then tell me this? Why is FGA investing little or nothing into the Alfa Romeo brand? Where's the Mito GTA? Where's the Giulietta GTA? Where's the 159 replacement? Where's the 166 replacement? Where's the replacement for the Brera and the Spider which have stopped producton this year?

This sounds very much like what people do when they're going to sell off a car, but Marchionne is doing it with a whole brand. Why spend money on developing products for a brand that is going to be sold off?

[Daniel]

Nor has it ever been. The 80's and early 90's were pretty bad for Ferrari, especially the F1 squad. Took a German, a frenchmen and an englishman to right the ship. Sounds like the beginning of a good joke LOL

Yes but that was a golden age for them in rallying so it wasn't all negative.

[ioan]

I don't know if have read newpaper articles on the subject. Marchionne and any other FIAT group representitive has dismissed the whole thing as a laughing matter.
And if VW likes Ferrari so much and SOOOOOO much money why can't they make their own?? What are they afraid of??? I am sure their "Ferrari" would be so much better than the real Ferrari.

Ever heard about the Bugatti Veyron?
What about the Lamborghini Diablo, or Murcielago, or Gallardo?
Or what about the VW Nardo that holds seven 24-hour world speed records?!

You see they made their own, several of them!

I find it funny how people know diddly squat about VW yet revel about FIAT owning Ferrari!

Being owned by VW would be the best thing that happened to Ferrari for a long time.

[ioan]

You couldn't get a car more British than a Aston Martin once upon a time but it was sold off to Ford before finally being brought back into Britsh hands. Jaguar was the same until it was sold again to Ford in 1989. The fact of the matter is if the books don't balance the company will be sold. Even if VW bought Ferrari it wouldn't mean Ferrari was be any less Italian. Rolls Royce is owned by BMW but when you think of Rolls Royce do you think of it as a German car manufacturer? Err no. :)

Exactly!

It looks more like some Ferrari fans are afraid that if VW took over than they would boot Santander and the Teflon guy, and hire Vettel instead!
What a nightmare to the tifosi that would be, just like it was for me when they signed Alonso. :D

[ioan]

Wasn't that designed by designers in France and England? :p

Huh?! With VW, designed and produced, engine and transmission!
And a German technical director!
Looks to me like a German supercar assembled in France. ;)

[CNR]

i think some of you have missed the point
http://www.caradvice.com.au/91049/volkswagen-group-to-buy-ferrari-shares/

Sergio Marchionne, hinted that he wanted to raise more funds for the Fiat and Chrysler partnership and was thinking of selling off a certain amount of Ferrari shares in an initial public offering type deal.

http://theage.drive.com.au/motor-news/cant-afford-a-ferrari-would-you-settle-for-shares-20100823-13hak.html
Can't afford a Ferrari? Would you settle for shares?

Gianni Agnelli, the mercurial 79-year-old patriarch of Fiat, is planning to float the group's luxury car side, Ferrari, on the Milan Stock Exchange, according to London's Independent

[Rollo]

Then tell me this? Why is FGA investing little or nothing into the Alfa Romeo brand? Where's the Mito GTA? Where's the Giulietta GTA? Where's the 159 replacement? Where's the 166 replacement? Where's the replacement for the Brera and the Spider which have stopped producton this year?


http://www.fiatgroup.com/en-us/shai/iinfo/presentations/Documents/FGA_2010_2014-A_way_forward.pdf
The 159 Replacement is tentatively called the Alfa Romeo Giulia, due 2012. The new Spider is due in 2013.

The 166 Replacement was to be the 169, but it may or may not be produced at all:
http://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-news/progetto-941-ar15872.html

The Mito GTA exists as a concept car thus far:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWegxPJO7qE
We saw this at the Sydney Motor Show this year. They may or may not make it at all depending on the full implications of the EURO V emissions scheme. EURO V is the reason why the Honda Civic Type-R was killed off.

[D28]

Can anyone say for sure that the public offering of Ferrari shares was made. From my previous post, does the Agnelli holding company still own enough of Ferrari to controll the comapany, no matter how many shares are purchased?
Ferarri's son must still have a small piece of the company.

If this is so I take Marcionne's words as given, Ferrari is not for sale, period.

[nigelred5]

I agree, I've never read that Ferrari was outright "For Sale", but depending on the IPO, that could be enough to surrender controlling interest.

[Rollo]

As far as I was aware, FIAT bought 50% + 1 of the shares of Ferrari when Enzo sold them in the late 60's and then paid almost €750m for another 30% in 2006.
If Piero Ferrari owns 10%, then that in theory would leave about 10% of the SpA still unaccounted for.

[Giuseppe F1]

As far as I was aware, FIAT bought 50% + 1 of the shares of Ferrari when Enzo sold them in the late 60's and then paid almost €750m for another 30% in 2006.
If Piero Ferrari owns 10%, then that in theory would leave about 10% of the SpA still unaccounted for.

As for the remaining 10%, Mubadala Abu Dhabi purchased a 5% stake in Ferrari back in 2005. However, they are currently negotiating to sell their stake back to FIAT interestingly:

Heres the links from last week from a few reputable sources:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-11-16/mubadala-says-it-s-in-talks-to-complete-ferrari-stake-sale-to-partner-fiat.html

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/fc52bc74-eff4-11df-88db-00144feab49a.html#axzz163nWaLiv

[Giuseppe F1]

So FIAT now own 90% and Piero Ferrari the remaining 10%.

[mstillhere]

Ever heard about the Bugatti Veyron?
What about the Lamborghini Diablo, or Murcielago, or Gallardo?
Or what about the VW Nardo that holds seven 24-hour world speed records?!

You see they made their own, several of them!

I find it funny how people know diddly squat about VW yet revel about FIAT owning Ferrari!

Being owned by VW would be the best thing that happened to Ferrari for a long time.

I love to see how many times you give yourself so many compliments. If nobody does it, I guess "someone" has to, right?

If VW have so many "successfull" brands, why do they need the ONE? Because they can't have it? Well..well.well.They better get used. FIAT has no reason to sell it. Obviously the reason I refer to has nothing to do with the commercial aspect of the company. You know....it's an Italian thing.

Nobody can have Ferrari. It's the only and unique and it will be such as long as in remains in Italian hands. It's like the tower of Pisa or Venice. They all are unique. You can have as many replicas as you want but they will never be the same. I don't even know if VW would be able to keep the Ferrari clientele. They might just get rid of their Ferraris and get a Passat instead ah,ah,ah,ah,ah......

I don't even know why you guys are having this conversation. No ONE of the FIAT big wigs has sent ONE message to VW that it might happen. Have fun though. There is no harm in talking about it.

[Daniel]

http://www.fiatgroup.com/en-us/shai/iinfo/presentations/Documents/FGA_2010_2014-A_way_forward.pdf
The 159 Replacement is tentatively called the Alfa Romeo Giulia, due 2012. The new Spider is due in 2013.

The 166 Replacement was to be the 169, but it may or may not be produced at all:
http://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-news/progetto-941-ar15872.html

The Mito GTA exists as a concept car thus far:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWegxPJO7qE
We saw this at the Sydney Motor Show this year. They may or may not make it at all depending on the full implications of the EURO V emissions scheme. EURO V is the reason why the Honda Civic Type-R was killed off.

Everything is off in the future with Alfa...... just like the sale of Alfa Romeo....

[mstillhere]

Then tell me this? Why is FGA investing little or nothing into the Alfa Romeo brand? Where's the Mito GTA? Where's the Giulietta GTA? Where's the 159 replacement? Where's the 166 replacement? Where's the replacement for the Brera and the Spider which have stopped producton this year?

This sounds very much like what people do when they're going to sell off a car, but Marchionne is doing it with a whole brand. Why spend money on developing products for a brand that is going to be sold off?

In my post I actually was saying why VW don't build their own FERRARI. I was not talking about A. Romeo.

If you want to talk about A. Romeo I only would like to say that it's not my place nor my university major to talk about car manufacturing, production, updates, etc. since it's not my field of expertise. I'll leave that to the pro and so should anyone else who is not a pro in these fields. What I know is that A. R. has been there since I was born, and it's still there.

Fiat now has an unique opportunity with the U.S. market to become a major world player. It was an excellent move at a bargain price. The A.R. brand has a huge number of fans here in the U.S. who only can't wait to get themselves a brand new A.R.

Obviously this golden opportunity is only to be wasted by the Fiat manegement group. At this time however Marchionne has been a very good strategist. If they are going to be successful or not only time will tell. And I don't see what would be the harm in wishing Fiat good luck in their new venture. After all Fiat has definetly made history in the car world if not more at least as much as VW.

[ioan]

Nobody can have Ferrari. It's the only and unique and it will be such as long as in remains in Italian hands.

Let's wait and see before using big words.

[nigelred5]

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE68P0G320100926

[ioan]

My apologies, its just the gearbox thats British.

No need for apologies, we are only having a friendly discussion after all! :)

[ArrowsFA1]

i guess this would rule out Volkswagen own f1 team
I remember Ford being very interested in Ferrari once upon a time. Having been spurned they made the GT40 and beat Ferrari at Le Mans.

Perhaps Volkswagen will do the same to Ferrari in F1 :p

[mstillhere]

I remember Ford being very interested in Ferrari once upon a time. Having been spurned they made the GT40 and beat Ferrari at Le Mans.

Perhaps Volkswagen will do the same to Ferrari in F1 :p

All bets are open :)

[D28]

I remember Ford being very interested in Ferrari once upon a time. Having been spurned they made the GT40 and beat Ferrari at Le Mans.

Perhaps Volkswagen will do the same to Ferrari in F1 :p

Perhaps. In very recent history giant auto corporations have not enjoyed much success when they attempt to build and race the complete car. The combined millions spent by Ford, Toyota, Honda and Mercedes have so far resulted in 1 win (Honda). Renault in their latest configuration have been successful, as has BMW-Sauber, to a lessor extent, but both companies bought existing teams and let them go racing. BMW probably gave up too soon.
VW already has a good sportscar record with Audi and Bentley wins at Le Mans. Their sometime partner Porsche has an impeccable sportscar record. Oddly enough, Porsche has not faired so well lately with single seaters. There is the one F1 win in 1962 and the CART win with Teo Fabi, but this was in a March chassis. Similarly TAG engined wins came in a McLaren chassis.

Usually the accounting directors lose patience before any racing wins can take place. This would also have happened at Ford in 1966 except for the single minded obsession of principal owner Henry Ford.

VW executives will be well aware of these considerations, even without the advice of this forum. I would say the odds are not great for a successful F1 entry, but I would like to see them try.

[mstillhere]

Perhaps. In very recent history giant auto corporations have not enjoyed much success when they attempt to build and race the complete car. The combined millions spent by Ford, Toyota, Honda and Mercedes have so far resulted in 1 win (Honda). Renault in their latest configuration have been successful, as has BMW-Sauber, to a lessor extent, but both companies bought existing teams and let them go racing. BMW probably gave up too soon.
VW already has a good sportscar record with Audi and Bentley wins at Le Mans. Their sometime partner Porsche has an impeccable sportscar record. Oddly enough, Porsche has not faired so well lately with single seaters. There is the one F1 win in 1962 and the CART win with Teo Fabi, but this was in a March chassis. Similarly TAG engined wins came in a McLaren chassis.

Usually the accounting directors lose patience before any racing wins can take place. This would also have happened at Ford in 1966 except for the single minded obsession of principal owner Henry Ford.

VW executives will be well aware of these considerations, even without the advice of this forum. I would say the odds are not great for a successful F1 entry, but I would like to see them try.

Nice post D28,

so my question to VW is: why buy an entire company and F1 team so that they can race in F1 when they allready have Porsche? I think Porsche has better credentions of any of the new team that joined F1 this year and even if they did not do so well in CART so what? I mean they are Porsche!! If they put their minds together they could do way better than Ferrari very quickly.

[Hawkmoon]

Nice post D28,

so my question to VW is: why buy an entire company and F1 team so that they can race in F1 when they allready have Porsche? I think Porsche has better credentions of any of the new team that joined F1 this year and even if they did not do so well in CART so what? I mean they are Porsche!! If they put their minds together they could do way better than Ferrari very quickly.

No, they couldn't. Teams don't just enter F1 and win. It just doesn't happen. You only have to look at the corpses of teams that litter the recent history of the sport to see that, Some of those corpses belong to the biggest car makers in the world.

Since the mid-80's only Ferrari, McLaren and Williams have had any sustained success. Benetton/Renault popped up from time-to-time but quickly faded. Brawn-Mercedes won after spending more on a car than anybody in the history of the sport then promptly failed to win a race the following season. Red Bull took 14 years and 3 different incarnations to get to the top. Winning in F1 is bloody hard.

If VW want to win in F1 quickly then they need to buy Ferrari or McLaren. Entering the sport with Porsche as a new entrant will be an excercise in futility for many years to come.

[Rollo]

Nice post D28,

so my question to VW is: why buy an entire company and F1 team so that they can race in F1 when they already have Porsche?

Why? Economies of scale when it comes to developing platforms.

VW might find a benefit in co-developing platforms with Fiat for their smaller cars like the Polo and Lupo, whereas the Italian marque might benefit from a share in diesel related technologies that VAG have.
It could prove to be as symbiotic as the relationship that Ford and Mazda have: the 2-Fiesta, 3-Focus, 6-Mondeo-Fusion-CX-9 etc.

Marchionne himself is looking door openings in the American market, VAG are already reasonably successful over there and this might be the foot in the door.

This may be handy:
http://www.caradvice.com.au/91049/volkswagen-group-to-buy-ferrari-shares/

[ioan]

USD 27 Billions profit?! Not bad at all!

[mstillhere]

No, they couldn't. Teams don't just enter F1 and win. It just doesn't happen. You only have to look at the corpses of teams that litter the recent history of the sport to see that, Some of those corpses belong to the biggest car makers in the world.

Since the mid-80's only Ferrari, McLaren and Williams have had any sustained success. Benetton/Renault popped up from time-to-time but quickly faded. Brawn-Mercedes won after spending more on a car than anybody in the history of the sport then promptly failed to win a race the following season. Red Bull took 14 years and 3 different incarnations to get to the top. Winning in F1 is bloody hard.

If VW want to win in F1 quickly then they need to buy Ferrari or McLaren. Entering the sport with Porsche as a new entrant will be an excercise in futility for many years to come.

Oh boy and here I am thinking that for VW with those 30 BL dollars profit could make a Porsche land on the moon. :)

I would not consider Porsche just another racing team. if I were VW CEO and had all that money you can bet I would have my own Porsche division put on the track an all Porsche F1 team (and CART as well). It's a prestigious brand. They are renowned in the wolrd and it would be a definetly nice challenge to see them trying to beat Ferrari and Merceds and all the big shots in F1. They would definetly raise the bar on the track.

If VW really want Ferrari and/or Alfa Romeo it looks like Fiat might pocket quiet a bit of those 27 BL dollars. One think is going to be for sure, IF FIAT were to sell Ferrari to VW rest assured it would be for an astronomical amount of money.

[D28]

I would not consider Porsche just another racing team. if I were VW CEO and had all that money you can bet I would have my own Porsche division put on the track an all Porsche F1 team (and CART as well). It's a prestigious brand. They are renowned in the wolrd and it would be a definetly nice challenge to see them trying to beat Ferrari and Merceds and all the big shots in F1. They would definetly raise the bar on the track.

As Mstillhere says, It could take 10 years before Porsche was competetive.
They are pretty invincible in sportscars, not so much in Formula cars. I expected them to dominate in CART 1989-90, instead they won only once and
in a March chassis. It would be a very hard road for them to win in F1.
The problem is they have everything to lose, that invincible record, if they go the F1 route. Do they have the patience to spend all that money just to compete and hope for a win down the line?

[ioan]

Guys you make it sound like if it was only Ferrari and McLaren who ever made it to the top of F1.
VW will probably not go the Toyota way, they would instead do what BMW and Mercedes did, buy out a team with many years of F1 knowledge and help them with top drawer technical knowledge and money. Sauber and STR being the perfect candidates.

I don't believe that VW want Ferrari for the F1 team, they want the marque to be added to their already very impressive portfolio, that's all.

[Malbec]

isn't going to happen. If Fiat are going to flog off any part of the wedding china it'll be Alfa Romeo.

Precisely. VW wanting to acquire Alfa Romeo has gone beyond rumour too, they have set up a design studio already that proposes potential new Alfa Romeo models based on VW platforms.

VW has no need to acquire Ferrari and FIAT would extract a high price too if it was ever to sell. Ferrari does have a unique place in Italian mentality and FIAT would have to be near collapse to sell it, and it isn't. VW already has Lamborghini, Porsche and Bugatti to compete in the same or similar sectors as Ferrari. Acquiring Ferrari would turn one of the four top brands into an equivalent of SEAT, a company VW doesn't really know how to market in a niche of its own.

re: VW and F1, they won't establish a new team, they are already in talks with Williams which already has a close relationship with Porsche as it is.

[mstillhere]

Precisely. VW wanting to acquire Alfa Romeo has gone beyond rumour too, they have set up a design studio already that proposes potential new Alfa Romeo models based on VW platforms.

VW has no need to acquire Ferrari and FIAT would extract a high price too if it was ever to sell. Ferrari does have a unique place in Italian mentality and FIAT would have to be near collapse to sell it, and it isn't. VW already has Lamborghini, Porsche and Bugatti to compete in the same or similar sectors as Ferrari. Acquiring Ferrari would turn one of the four top brands into an equivalent of SEAT, a company VW doesn't really know how to market in a niche of its own.

re: VW and F1, they won't establish a new team, they are already in talks with Williams which already has a close relationship with Porsche as it is.

I would agree with most of your post. The only part I don't know much is the Alfa Romeo story. I don't think that AR has the same relevance as Ferrari in the hearts of Italians but is pretty close. Besides, if FIAT gets rid of AR what marque of the FIAT group would replace it? It would be unthinkable to have FIAT without a sport's car and I don't think Maserati would be a viable replacement. Your thought?

[Mia 01]

I don´t think I ever will afford a Ferrari, but perhaps a VW-Ferrari.

[ioan]

I wouldn't rule anything out and if VW decide to sell off Lamborghini, and Bugatti, we might see a merge in the future as the conflict of interest in the Italian market will cease. :)

No offense but what did you smoke?
Why would VW sell Lamborghini and Bugatti for a merger with FIAT of all bad cars?
Why would VW want a merger with FIAT at all?! A take over is a much more realistic move.

[Daniel]

No offense but what did you smoke?
Why would VW sell Lamborghini and Bugatti for a merger with FIAT of all bad cars?
Why would VW want a merger with FIAT at all?! A take over is a much more realistic move.
Yeah, Fiat and VW merging :rotflmao:

[ioan]

No offense taken. :)

:)

[Malbec]

I would agree with most of your post. The only part I don't know much is the Alfa Romeo story. I don't think that AR has the same relevance as Ferrari in the hearts of Italians but is pretty close. Besides, if FIAT gets rid of AR what marque of the FIAT group would replace it? It would be unthinkable to have FIAT without a sport's car and I don't think Maserati would be a viable replacement. Your thought?

I don't think FIAT would want to sell AR and aren't planning to. Daniel pointed out a lack of forthcoming AR models as proof that FIAT were planning to sell the brand off but my understanding was that FIAT were going to use rear wheel drive Chrysler platforms as a basis for mid/highend AR models and let the current FWD platforms die.

I don't know what exactly VW intends to do to get hold of AR but as I mentioned earlier FIAT is not on the brink of bankruptcy. If FIAT pulls off the Chrysler project well they stand to expand far more quickly than VW. Their deal exposes FIAT to little risk while being in a position to cash in on Chrysler platforms and access to the US market. They also have the technology, platforms and expertise to modernise the Chrysler lineup quickly and cheaply.

People mock Italian management using stereotypes and memories of pre-Todt/Brawn Ferrari as an example but modern Italian management is really pretty effective. FIAT's resurgence is one example but Italian companies have managed to survive against the odds and thrive in many other high tech fields.

[Daniel]

I don't think FIAT would want to sell AR and aren't planning to. Daniel pointed out a lack of forthcoming AR models as proof that FIAT were planning to sell the brand off but my understanding was that FIAT were going to use rear wheel drive Chrysler platforms as a basis for mid/highend AR models and let the current FWD platforms die.

I don't know what exactly VW intends to do to get hold of AR but as I mentioned earlier FIAT is not on the brink of bankruptcy. If FIAT pulls off the Chrysler project well they stand to expand far more quickly than VW. Their deal exposes FIAT to little risk while being in a position to cash in on Chrysler platforms and access to the US market. They also have the technology, platforms and expertise to modernise the Chrysler lineup quickly and cheaply.

People mock Italian management using stereotypes and memories of pre-Todt/Brawn Ferrari as an example but modern Italian management is really pretty effective. FIAT's resurgence is one example but Italian companies have managed to survive against the odds and thrive in many other high tech fields.
Fiat were doing pretty well last year but this year their sales have tanked spectacularly. Sure they're not going bankrupt this year or next year but things aren't so sunny for them.

[ioan]

If FIAT pulls off the Chrysler project well they stand to expand far more quickly than VW.

Well VW is already the biggest out there so it is only normal for small fish like FIAT to be able to grow at a lightly better rate IF they manage to make it work.

BTW what is FIAT group's market value?

[Malbec]

Well VW is already the biggest out there so it is only normal for small fish like FIAT to be able to grow at a lightly better rate IF they manage to make it work.

BTW what is FIAT group's market value?

VW isn't the biggest, Toyota is.

I'm not sure what your point is btw, VW may have the entire worlds economic output as its cashbase but if FIAT doesn't want or have to sell a brand it won't.

[Daniel]

I don't think ioan was suggesting that however.

Neither do I

[Daniel]

This reminds me of Shakespeare's comedy "Much Ado About Nothing". :)
Might I suggest that you read a recently discovered Shakespeare manuscript "Henners didn't read Daniel and Ioan's posts properly" ;)

[ioan]

VW isn't the biggest, Toyota is.

I am fairly sure that in 2009 VW was the one:
http://autos.yahoo.com/articles/autos_content_landing_pages/1161/volkswagen-steals-toyotas-crown-as-worlds-largest-automaker/

In one month we will know who did better in 2010.

Also for a short period in 2008 VW group was the most valuable company, topping Exxon.


I'm not sure what your point is btw, VW may have the entire worlds economic output as its cashbase but if FIAT doesn't want or have to sell a brand it won't.

Maybe I am outdated and hostile take overs aren't possible anymore?

[Daniel]

I don't think FIAT would want to sell AR and aren't planning to. Daniel pointed out a lack of forthcoming AR models as proof that FIAT were planning to sell the brand off but my understanding was that FIAT were going to use rear wheel drive Chrysler platforms as a basis for mid/highend AR models and let the current FWD platforms die.

I don't know what exactly VW intends to do to get hold of AR but as I mentioned earlier FIAT is not on the brink of bankruptcy. If FIAT pulls off the Chrysler project well they stand to expand far more quickly than VW. Their deal exposes FIAT to little risk while being in a position to cash in on Chrysler platforms and access to the US market. They also have the technology, platforms and expertise to modernise the Chrysler lineup quickly and cheaply.

People mock Italian management using stereotypes and memories of pre-Todt/Brawn Ferrari as an example but modern Italian management is really pretty effective. FIAT's resurgence is one example but Italian companies have managed to survive against the odds and thrive in many other high tech fields.

Further to what I said before, I don't really see how launching Alfa's on Chrysler platforms is necessarily a great move.
Chryslers engines aren't necessarily that great in comparison to their european counterparts.
Will Chrysler platforms be good enough for European buyers who expect a whole lot more than buyers in the US.

If anything I think the sharing should have been the other way. Fiat's engines, well more the ones they were developing with multiair technology were probably better engines.

I hope Fiat do well, they're my favourite brand since Peugeot started to make cars that were just craptastic. I just don't think things look good.

[Malbec]

Further to what I said before, I don't really see how launching Alfa's on Chrysler platforms is necessarily a great move.
Chryslers engines aren't necessarily that great in comparison to their european counterparts.
Will Chrysler platforms be good enough for European buyers who expect a whole lot more than buyers in the US.

If anything I think the sharing should have been the other way. Fiat's engines, well more the ones they were developing with multiair technology were probably better engines.

I hope Fiat do well, they're my favourite brand since Peugeot started to make cars that were just craptastic. I just don't think things look good.

I don't think FIAT are too interested in Chrysler's engines, more their RWD platforms.

They realise that AR's main weakness is that its a brand centred around driving pleasure and handling yet has been hobbled with FWD chassis. The aim is to get the 159 and higher models replaced by RWD versions from Chrysler. As for engines I agree that FIAT have the better range and more current technology particularly for emissions and economy. I don't think FIAT is particularly interested in Chrysler's engines and in fact the technology transfer is going the other way, using FIAT motors in Chrysler's new range.

Speaking for myself I would be highly tempted by a RWD Alfa 3 or 5 series rival....

[Daniel]

Development of the fiat 6 cylinder engines has been cancelled and Chrysler pentastar engines will be used in FGA products. Multiair may find its way in though

[Malbec]

Maybe I am outdated and hostile take overs aren't possible anymore?

Who owns FIAT? The Agnellis still own 30% so a hostile takeover would have to seriously overvalue the share value of the company to get a majority of the remaining shareholders on board. Then you are also ignoring the political influence of the Agnelli family that would be brought to bear to prevent a foreign takeover of the company.

And that still ignores the question, why would VW want to perform a hostile takeover of FIAT?

VW has expanded by buying up brands that are failing to stay independent on their own for a discount price, using platform sharing to cut costs and turning them around. It has never paid over the odds for a brand that is doing well on its own. Porsche is the exception but that was the result of some pretty nifty handiwork behind the scenes and there was a lot of family politics involved in that one.

[ioan]

Who owns FIAT? The Agnellis still own 30% so a hostile takeover would have to seriously overvalue the share value of the company to get a majority of the remaining shareholders on board. Then you are also ignoring the political influence of the Agnelli family that would be brought to bear to prevent a foreign takeover of the company.

And that still ignores the question, why would VW want to perform a hostile takeover of FIAT?

VW has expanded by buying up brands that are failing to stay independent on their own for a discount price, using platform sharing to cut costs and turning them around. It has never paid over the odds for a brand that is doing well on its own. Porsche is the exception but that was the result of some pretty nifty handiwork behind the scenes and there was a lot of family politics involved in that one.

I only pointed it out that it is possible as you guys were trying so hard to make it look like being impossible. In the end Ferrari might be sacred for some people however money doesn't care about that, never did never will.

So the Agnelli's have 30%, great that leaves VW the chance to play with 70% if they ever want to. I never said they will, just for the sake of being accurate.

[Daniel]

Hurray for Fiat!

http://www.italiaspeed.com/2010/cars/industry/12/sales_italy_november/0212.html

Sales are almost 26% down in Italy when the market was only down 21%. Alfa, meet VW.

[nigelred5]

Fiat has been very pleasantly suprised by the Grand Cherokee chassis and is talk has been they are likely to build Maserati and possibly Alfa and Fiat variants of the SUV with unique power for the Italian brands. New Chrysler models based on Fiat chassis engineering are expected for 2012 and new Midsize fiat and Alfa models may well be based on the Chrysler RWD/AWD chassis designs. As was said earlier, the pentastar V6 engines are slated for majority of US midsize duty. It is a modern efficient and very flexible set of engines with a fairly wide range of displacement options.

[mstillhere]

Fiat has been very pleasantly suprised by the Grand Cherokee chassis and is talk has been they are likely to build Maserati and possibly Alfa and Fiat variants of the SUV with unique power for the Italian brands. New Chrysler models based on Fiat chassis engineering are expected for 2012 and new Midsize fiat and Alfa models may well be based on the Chrysler RWD/AWD chassis designs. As was said earlier, the pentastar V6 engines are slated for majority of US midsize duty. It is a modern efficient and very flexible set of engines with a fairly wide range of displacement options.

In my opinion those of you who don't beleive Fiat would be successfull have no idea what it means to have a foot in the door of the biggest (so far) car market in the world. That is also including VW and the other German car makers and Ferrari. All very successfull brands selling thousands of vehicles in the U.S. every year. And Fiat is going to be part of this group. What's so crazy about that? Some of you here are not aknowledging the fact that nowadays FIAT is a modern company with interests all over the world. They got Chrisler at a bargain price as part of a wise strategy. And once the American market will start picking up steam Fiat is going to be here selling their products to the U.S. public which BTW has been very welcoming especially towards the AR cars. Yes that brand that many of you want to see in VW hands. Of course AR need to be ready for the opportunity and who knows? They might very well succeed just where Mercedes failed. Because let's not forget that Chrisler was in the hands of the German car maker without success. And let's not forget that only a couple of months ago FIAT was almost one of the biggest car makers had them purchased OPEL from GM. Things did not go according to plan but if anyone thinks that the guys at FIAT are a bunch of idiots well I would not be so sure. After all Ferrari has been very successful on the U.S. market for many years and I am sure they would know a thing or two about about how to sell cars in this market.

[Daniel]

The difference between FGA and VAG is that VAG have a number of successful brands. Audi, VW and Skoda all sell very well. FGA has Fiat. Alfa Romeo is a mess and Lancia is even worse.

FGA are also so slow at launching new technologies. If they'd launched Multiair (across the whole range of cars), twinair and their new DDCT gearboxes a couple of years ago they'd be laughing, but they didn.t

Here's something that made me laugh which is related to the topic :)

http://www.pohrani.com/f/2j/39/2l3hUkeJ/audia6201103.jpg

[ShiftingGears]

The difference between FGA and VAG is that VAG have a number of successful brands. Audi, VW and Skoda all sell very well. FGA has Fiat. Alfa Romeo is a mess and Lancia is even worse.

FGA are also so slow at launching new technologies. If they'd launched Multiair (across the whole range of cars), twinair and their new DDCT gearboxes a couple of years ago they'd be laughing, but they didn.t

Here's something that made me laugh which is related to the topic :)

http://www.pohrani.com/f/2j/39/2l3hUkeJ/audia6201103.jpg

:laugh: :laugh:

[nigelred5]

That's kinda funny, especially since I currently own two of them and have owned 5 in the last ten years. It's fairly true, especially between the A4/Passat/A6.

The main difference is in the space between the seats.

[nigelred5]

In my opinion those of you who don't beleive Fiat would be successfull have no idea what it means to have a foot in the door of the biggest (so far) car market in the world. That is also including VW and the other German car makers and Ferrari. All very successfull brands selling thousands of vehicles in the U.S. every year. And Fiat is going to be part of this group. What's so crazy about that? Some of you here are not aknowledging the fact that nowadays FIAT is a modern company with interests all over the world. They got Chrisler at a bargain price as part of a wise strategy. And once the American market will start picking up steam Fiat is going to be here selling their products to the U.S. public which BTW has been very welcoming especially towards the AR cars. Yes that brand that many of you want to see in VW hands. Of course AR need to be ready for the opportunity and who knows? They might very well succeed just where Mercedes failed. Because let's not forget that Chrisler was in the hands of the German car maker without success. And let's not forget that only a couple of months ago FIAT was almost one of the biggest car makers had them purchased OPEL from GM. Things did not go according to plan but if anyone thinks that the guys at FIAT are a bunch of idiots well I would not be so sure. After all Ferrari has been very successful on the U.S. market for many years and I am sure they would know a thing or two about about how to sell cars in this market.


I hope you don't think I'm one of the naysayers. I know what I said is pretty much spot on for their future plans for the integrated company. Fiat was pleasantly suprised in some of what they got from from the Chrysler deal (AND VERY taken aback at the lack of actual investment that had occurred while owned by Cerberus). They knew they were primarily aimed at their dealer network and production capacity. What they were suprized at was many of the Chrysler products weren't as bad as they assumed and there may well be more Chrysler products not only actually surviving the acquisition, but actually cross pollenating their technology into the Italian brands. Chrysler's problems haven't really been design, it's been cashflow that has limited their ability to introduce new engines or products and it has had negative effects on execution and build quality, All things that FIAt has already made strides at addressing in the short time they have owned Chrysler.

That stretch/shrinking of a moderately successful design/style hasn't worked at Chrysler. ;) I'll be glad to see a few more brand options again in the US market. The $64,000 question is will the new Fiats be even a marginally better in quality than when they were last sold in the US. Fiat quality back then made Chryslers look like a swiss watch.

[Mia 01]

I´m not so interested of Fiat, moore so in F1.

[mstillhere]

I hope you don't think I'm one of the naysayers. I know what I said is pretty much spot on for their future plans for the integrated company. Fiat was pleasantly suprised in some of what they got from from the Chrysler deal (AND VERY taken aback at the lack of actual investment that had occurred while owned by Cerberus). They knew they were primarily aimed at their dealer network and production capacity. What they were suprized at was many of the Chrysler products weren't as bad as they assumed and there may well be more Chrysler products not only actually surviving the acquisition, but actually cross pollenating their technology into the Italian brands. Chrysler's problems haven't really been design, it's been cashflow that has limited their ability to introduce new engines or products and it has had negative effects on execution and build quality, All things that FIAt has already made strides at addressing in the short time they have owned Chrysler.

That stretch/shrinking of a moderately successful design/style hasn't worked at Chrysler. ;) I'll be glad to see a few more brand options again in the US market. The $64,000 question is will the new Fiats be even a marginally better in quality than when they were last sold in the US. Fiat quality back then made Chryslers look like a swiss watch.

No, I don't think that at all. And one think I would like to add is that FIAT, thanks to Chrisler ad its group, has something that VW does not have wich is has teh SUVs and pick up trucks. Of course they might play a marginal rol in Europe, but in the US they are very present. Jeep just came out with the new Grand Cherokee. True, not a revolunary redesign, but pretty good. And in the future FIAT will come out with new redisigned lined of trucks, SUVs vans, and mini vans.

[mstillhere]

I´m not so interested of Fiat, moore so in F1.

I second that :)

[ioan]

And one think I would like to add is that FIAT, thanks to Chrisler ad its group, has something that VW does not have wich is has teh SUVs and pick up trucks.

Ah, the ignorance.
What do you think these are?

http://www.seriouswheels.com/pics-2005/2005-VW-Touareg-Expedition-Jump-1600x1200.jpg

http://www.carsuk.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/vw-touareg-bluemotion.jpg

http://img3.4wheelfun.de/VW-Amarok-Tuning-f900x600-F4F4F2-C-6d3ee977-420752.jpg
http://www.autonet.at/Images/Small/496x300/AmarokStory.jpg

And what about some Rally Raid winner SUV from VW?
http://automobil-blog.de/wp-content/uploads/Motorsport/VW/Volkswagen_Touareg_Dakar.jpg

Looks like VW have their own SUVs and pickups with impressive performances.

[ioan]

And because I don't want to be biased these are the Fiat SUV and pickup:

Fiat Panda:
http://www.allrader.de/fiat_panda_4x4_3.jpg
Fiat Strada (probably a Punto or Brava derivation):
http://indianautosblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/114.jpg

I wonder why they chose to drive through the river when the bridge was only 10 meters away? :confused:

[mstillhere]

I tell what they are: A PIMPLE ON Dodge RAM ass
ahahahhahahhahahahaa

http://www.google.com/images?q=dodge+ram&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-Address&oe=&rlz=1I7ADFA_en&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi&biw=1175&bih=575
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

You just showed me a of pocket SUV buddy. Please stop,
I am laughing too hard.
That mini pick up was soooooooooo "cute". I bet it fits in a shoe box. :) :) :)
AHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Daniel]

Cadillac were more successful than Chrysler in Europe? Ummmmm no.

[ioan]

I tell what they are: A PIMPLE ON Dodge RAM ass
ahahahhahahhahahahaa

http://www.google.com/images?q=dodge+ram&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-Address&oe=&rlz=1I7ADFA_en&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi&biw=1175&bih=575
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

You just showed me a of pocket SUV buddy. Please stop,
I am laughing too hard.
That mini pick up was soooooooooo "cute". I bet it fits in a shoe box. :) :) :)
AHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I just showed you that you have no clue what you are talking about, and your puerile reply proves me right.
Now I know that I am losing time with someone who's got zero knowledge about the automotive industry outside the US.

[ioan]

Its just not relevant, and I'm sure ioan has found it as amusing as I have reading the opposite side of this view. :)

You bet I did.
His post was a typical knee jerk only size matters approach to try to denigrate the high performance European SUV.

I guess it's time to give up banging our heads against these walls of ignorance.

[Malbec]

You bet I did.
His post was a typical knee jerk only size matters approach to try to denigrate the high performance European SUV.

I guess it's time to give up banging our heads against these walls of ignorance.

mstillhere does have a point though.

VW has failed to infiltrate and exploit the US market in the same way it has others. While it does sell moderately well its sales there hasn't mirrored the sales success its had in Europe, certainly when you compare them with the Japanese who entered the US market in force after VW.

Going back to FIAT, it has acquired a whole sales network across the US from a company that sells cars in the same ballpark price-wise. It is in a good position to benefit strongly from an upturn in the US market. Where FIAT is weak however is that it is hardly a player in the biggest market of all which is China.

As for hostile takeovers, I neglected to mention that much of the remainder of FIAT shares not owned by the Agnellis is owned by affiliated companies. It simply isn't going to happen as they will not allow the sale of the company to VAG who will likely not carry on FIATs relationship with its current supply chain.

[Daniel]

mstillhere does have a point though.

VW has failed to infiltrate and exploit the US market in the same way it has others. While it does sell moderately well its sales there hasn't mirrored the sales success its had in Europe, certainly when you compare them with the Japanese who entered the US market in force after VW.

Going back to FIAT, it has acquired a whole sales network across the US from a company that sells cars in the same ballpark price-wise. It is in a good position to benefit strongly from an upturn in the US market. Where FIAT is weak however is that it is hardly a player in the biggest market of all which is China.

As for hostile takeovers, I neglected to mention that much of the remainder of FIAT shares not owned by the Agnellis is owned by affiliated companies. It simply isn't going to happen as they will not allow the sale of the company to VAG who will likely not carry on FIATs relationship with its current supply chain.

The problem for VAG in the USA is that only the Japanese and Koreans know how to make a car that's well built enough for the US (ie not that well built but still not a pile of sh*t) whilst still keeping prices down.

I'm not sure I agree with you about Fiat being able to exploit a dealer network in the US. With what will they exploit it with?

They're launching the 500 -> http://www.fiatusa.com/en/build_your_own.html

But the base pop is $15,500 and add on 1k for the compulsory automatic transmission for the USA and it's not looking good. You can get an automatic Honda Fit for 15,900 and that's a 5 door and you know which one most people are going to buy!

I wish Fiat wouldn't be so haphazard with launching a flagship product into a new market.

There should be a 5 door model/giardiniera, there should be a 1.4 t-jet model with multiair, there should be a hybrid model and if research indicates there is a market for it, there should be a twinair turbo model.

Granted there will be a few gimme sales from people who just like the shape, who liked Fiat's when they used to be sold in the USA and so on but launching with only 1 engine and 3 spec levels is just suicide IMHO.

The site is crap too. Go onto the UK site and there's a complete list of what the car comes with in terms of specifications but there is nothing on the US site. If I was say from Arizona I'd want to know whether the damn thing has air con, does the site tell me this? No. Well then I'd go and buy a Honda or a Hyundai or a Toyota or something if they're not going to make the effort.

Anyway a little more on topic, do you really think that the range of Fiat's cars and Alfa Romeo's would set the US market on fire?

[ioan]

mstillhere does have a point though.

VW has failed to infiltrate and exploit the US market in the same way it has others. While it does sell moderately well its sales there hasn't mirrored the sales success its had in Europe, certainly when you compare them with the Japanese who entered the US market in force after VW.

Going back to FIAT, it has acquired a whole sales network across the US from a company that sells cars in the same ballpark price-wise. It is in a good position to benefit strongly from an upturn in the US market. Where FIAT is weak however is that it is hardly a player in the biggest market of all which is China.

As for hostile takeovers, I neglected to mention that much of the remainder of FIAT shares not owned by the Agnellis is owned by affiliated companies. It simply isn't going to happen as they will not allow the sale of the company to VAG who will likely not carry on FIATs relationship with its current supply chain.

VAG has been selling cars in the US for 40 years now. Not as many as Toyota (or Lexus), Honda (Accura) or Nissan (Infinity), but hey VW and Audi aren't exactly cheap in Europe, which means that they aren't in the same price class with the run of the mill Japanese cars.
Since they know took over Porsche they have a firm foot in the US market that they will probably never loose.

My point is that mstillhere knows bugger all about VW as his post show. I guess we agree on this one.

[nigelred5]

Chrysler builds VERY popular trucks perfectly suited for American needs, as does each of the American companies. Does anyone in Europe to speak of have much need for a 1 ton 4wd diesel truck that can haul a house up the side of a mountain? No, but they also build a very nice SUV in the new Grand Cherokee that will give them market share they don't have,The luxury/high performance SUV, but it will be in an Italian suit, not blue jeans and flannel. Will it have a Chrysler engine or a Maserati engine? To be honest, likely both will be available depending on the equipment level. It will likely have a Europe only diesel option focused on fuel economy in European guise. Unfortunately, in the US, it won't get play from US customers,(even if it is as powerful as a v8 with 40% better economy) because women driving SUV's won't pull up to dirty smelly diesel pumps and screw up their new maincure

[Malbec]

VAG has been selling cars in the US for 40 years now. Not as many as Toyota (or Lexus), Honda (Accura) or Nissan (Infinity), but hey VW and Audi aren't exactly cheap in Europe, which means that they aren't in the same price class with the run of the mill Japanese cars.
Since they know took over Porsche they have a firm foot in the US market that they will probably never loose.

My point is that mstillhere knows bugger all about VW as his post show. I guess we agree on this one.

VW is competing head on with Toyota/Honda. Audi with Lexus/Acura. They both fight for the same market and VAG isn't doing as well as it should be. Since when has the VW Passat come near shifting as many units as the Camry or Accord? And lets remember that VW had a huge lead over the Japanese with the extremely popular beetle.

Porsche does not shift anywhere near as many units as VW or Audi in any market so acquiring them won't significantly change VW's market share there.

[Malbec]

The problem for VAG in the USA is that only the Japanese and Koreans know how to make a car that's well built enough for the US (ie not that well built but still not a pile of sh*t) whilst still keeping prices down.

I'm not sure I agree with you about Fiat being able to exploit a dealer network in the US. With what will they exploit it with?

They're launching the 500 -> http://www.fiatusa.com/en/build_your_own.html

But the base pop is $15,500 and add on 1k for the compulsory automatic transmission for the USA and it's not looking good. You can get an automatic Honda Fit for 15,900 and that's a 5 door and you know which one most people are going to buy!

I wish Fiat wouldn't be so haphazard with launching a flagship product into a new market.

There should be a 5 door model/giardiniera, there should be a 1.4 t-jet model with multiair, there should be a hybrid model and if research indicates there is a market for it, there should be a twinair turbo model.

Granted there will be a few gimme sales from people who just like the shape, who liked Fiat's when they used to be sold in the USA and so on but launching with only 1 engine and 3 spec levels is just suicide IMHO.

The site is crap too. Go onto the UK site and there's a complete list of what the car comes with in terms of specifications but there is nothing on the US site. If I was say from Arizona I'd want to know whether the damn thing has air con, does the site tell me this? No. Well then I'd go and buy a Honda or a Hyundai or a Toyota or something if they're not going to make the effort.

Anyway a little more on topic, do you really think that the range of Fiat's cars and Alfa Romeo's would set the US market on fire?

Hey Daniel I thought you of all people would get the point about the 500. Sure you could buy a Jazz for the same price, you can get some pretty nice cars for Mini money too in any market. The Mini was never in competition with Micras, until the 500 and arguably the DS3 came along it was pretty much on its own in the market.

But both the 500 and the Mini offer 'cool' and the main profit doesn't come from the base price but from the options list to individualise your car.

Is FIAT going to set the US market on fire? probably not. However its such a huge market that even if they get a small market share thats going to count hugely in terms of sales figures. The cost of accessing that market is also low having acquired Chrysler's dealer network for next to nothing. Many companies would have paid a fortune for that alone, and establishing a wide dealer network is probably the biggest single cost any car maker entering a new market has to contend with. They also acquired a US manufacturing base for next to nothing too.

[Daniel]

Hey Daniel I thought you of all people would get the point about the 500. Sure you could buy a Jazz for the same price, you can get some pretty nice cars for Mini money too in any market. The Mini was never in competition with Micras, until the 500 and arguably the DS3 came along it was pretty much on its own in the market.

But both the 500 and the Mini offer 'cool' and the main profit doesn't come from the base price but from the options list to individualise your car.

Is FIAT going to set the US market on fire? probably not. However its such a huge market that even if they get a small market share thats going to count hugely in terms of sales figures. The cost of accessing that market is also low having acquired Chrysler's dealer network for next to nothing. Many companies would have paid a fortune for that alone, and establishing a wide dealer network is probably the biggest single cost any car maker entering a new market has to contend with. They also acquired a US manufacturing base for next to nothing too.

I might be wrong but I thought that the plant for the 500 in mexico was a new build?

I like the 500 (I own one so I should!!!!) and I wish it every bit of success but I just think they're going about it the wrong way and other than a tweak of the bodykit for the sport model they've not really shown that they understand the US market or basically how to launch a product.

[Malbec]

I might be wrong but I thought that the plant for the 500 in mexico was a new build?

I like the 500 (I own one so I should!!!!) and I wish it every bit of success but I just think they're going about it the wrong way and other than a tweak of the bodykit for the sport model they've not really shown that they understand the US market or basically how to launch a product.

Didn't realise that (about the Mexico factory).

I think there's a lot of goodwill in America too for the 500, though not as much awareness of it compared to the beetle or mini. That should help things a little and the launch of the 500 will only really be a taster for the reintroduction of the AR range later IMO which would be the main part of the reentry into the US market.

[mstillhere]

VAG has been selling cars in the US for 40 years now. Not as many as Toyota (or Lexus), Honda (Accura) or Nissan (Infinity), but hey VW and Audi aren't exactly cheap in Europe, which means that they aren't in the same price class with the run of the mill Japanese cars.
Since they know took over Porsche they have a firm foot in the US market that they will probably never loose.

My point is that mstillhere knows bugger all about VW as his post show. I guess we agree on this one.

Oh...I see Mr I know it all is back in towm and is trying to convince everyone he is the top dog around here. And he thought he was going to teach me a lesson showing me pictures of the car owned by my brother and that I drive every other day. AHAHAHAHAHAAHA You are so clueless, man!!!

You just got this hate against Ferrari that every single thing that relates to that, makes you go crazy. You have to make your point no matter what, and that keeps you to see what's so obvious. You can continue with your posts against Ferrari (your former team) and every thing and everyone who deals with it but know that your posts are out of touch with reality.

I knew when I wrote that VW had no SUVs you were going to come back with.....the Touareg. But do you seriously think that's the same thing?
You obviously have no idea what an American thinks when he/she is shopping for a truck (SUV).

And since I know it (and you don't) I'll tell you that the Touareg is not the first thing that comes to mind around here when shopping for an SUV.
We think more of nice Fords F-150s and Chevy Silverados and Dodge RAM and JEEP COMMANDO (to start with). And this is a market that your dear VW has nothing to sell to. Nothing, PERIOD. (please don't post those pictures again. They were ridiculous).
FYI, the biggest European SUV sold in here is the Mercedes GL. This is a comparable SUV to an American one. HOWEVER, due to its incredible high price it has a very limited market. I though the AUDI Q7, when it came out, was going to be a big success in here but to my surprise it was and is a flop . It came out rigged with problems and malfuctions that it quickly disappeared from the market including the Diesel model. I hate to bring this up to you but in the U.S. the Audi brand has a very bad reputation.

I personally owend a A4 3.0 I had bought new and the next thing I found out was the engine block (a VW V6 BTW ) developped a fracture. A fracture in the block engine. When I went back to the Audi dealer that day to drop off my A4 I was told that had to go to a car rental place and rent a car. And now it gets even better. I was the 36th person in line at the car rental place. All the 35 people in front of me they ALL had dropped their Audi's right bfore me. Needless to say, I got rid of the car and giot a BMW 530. Not a problem, as expected.

3 weeks ago I test drove the Q7 4.2. Boy it was so loud I could not beleive it. I ended up in buying a Chevy Tahoe that is as quite as a mouse and much bigger obviously. See, you got yourself in something you know jack about.

It's no surprise the American SUVs sell poorly in Europe. They were not designed to be driven in those narrower roads nor with such high gas prices. No surprise there at all.

But in terms of FIAT being in a better position in this market and in the market of the smaller cars and let me add in the mini-van business that's not brain surgery.

Speaking of mini-vans VW only sell the Touran that is nothing but a Chevy with the VW badge on it and with very low sells. So, in all these markets FIAT has really NOTHING to learn from VW. And let's not forget that even MERCEDES failed with Chrysler. YEAH!! The BIG Mercedes who was and is regularly beaten by Toyota every single year in terms of quality and sells of their products.

Mercedes, a brand name that has been operating in the U.S. for a very long time (I think even longer that VW actually) and yet royally screwed up with Chrysler. So, the theory according to which only manufacturers that have been operating in the US for a long time can be succesfull is just crap.

[Daniel]

I personally owend a A4 3.0 I had bought new and the next thing I found out was the engine block (a VW V6 BTW ) developped a fracture. A fracture in the block engine. When I went back to the Audi dealer that day to drop off my A4 I was told that had to go to a car rental place and rent a car. And now it gets even better. I was the 36th person in line at the car rental place. All the 35 people in front of me they ALL had dropped their Audi's right bfore me. Needless to say, I got rid of the car and giot a BMW 530. Not a problem, as expected.

Moral of the story is that VAG cars are not as well built as they want you to think.

If an Audi breaks it's put down to luck of the draw
If a Fiat breaks it's a piece of **** :mark:

[ioan]

Oh...I see Mr I know it all is back in towm and is trying to convince everyone he is the top dog around here. And he thought he was going to teach me a lesson showing me pictures of the car owned by my brother and that I drive every other day. AHAHAHAHAHAAHA You are so clueless, man!!!

I guess one must be an Alonso fan to post such childish garbage.

It's hard to believe that you drive a VW SUV or pickup and you don't even know that VW produce them, or are you just kidding yourself?

BTW, learn to use a smiley instead of the caps lock rubbish you post it will make you look smart. :rotflmao:

[nigelred5]

It's no surprise the American SUVs sell poorly in Europe. They were not designed to be driven in those narrower roads nor with such high gas prices. No surprise there at all.

But in terms of FIAT being in a better position in this market and in the market of the smaller cars and let me add in the mini-van business that's not brain surgery.

Speaking of mini-vans VW only sell the Touran that is nothing but a Chevy with the VW badge on it and with very low sells. So, in all these markets FIAT has really NOTHING to learn from VW. And let's not forget that even MERCEDES failed with Chrysler. YEAH!! The BIG Mercedes who was and is regularly beaten by Toyota every single year in terms of quality and sells of their products.

Mercedes, a brand name that has been operating in the U.S. for a very long time (I think even longer that VW actually) and yet royally screwed up with Chrysler. So, the theory according to which only manufacturers that have been operating in the US for a long time can be succesfull is just crap.

Actually, The Touran is a dodge Caravan/ Chrysler Town and Country, complete with a dodge V6, Not a Chevy at all. The VW Touran is built in the same factory as the Chryslers.

If Fiat should learn anything from VW, it should be to learn that the market wants what VW WAS, not what it IS. VW made a flawed move when it decided it should compete head to head with Mercedes and BMW and moved upmarket. VW is slowly learning that, but they are falling into the Toyota trap of manufacturing too many market specific models and not relying on core product. I can't get what I want from VW, and the Federal Regs won't allow me to bring in what is already produced in vast numbers for the european market.

[ioan]

I personally owend a A4 3.0 I had bought new and the next thing I found out was the engine block (a VW V6 BTW ) developped a fracture. A fracture in the block engine. When I went back to the Audi dealer that day to drop off my A4 I was told that had to go to a car rental place and rent a car. And now it gets even better. I was the 36th person in line at the car rental place. All the 35 people in front of me they ALL had dropped their Audi's right bfore me. Needless to say, I got rid of the car and giot a BMW 530. Not a problem, as expected.

They might not have liked you at that Audi place because you broke a fine piece of engine.

I myself drive an A4 and after 3 years it still runs as great as on the first day.
Audi takes care of the servicing and they always offer a free rental car if it takes longer than a day (morning to evening).

The only bugging part is the particulate filter that needs to be cleaned periodically by driving over 2000 rpm for about 30 minutes.

Around here the Audi prices are very high but IMO the car is worth the money.

PS: The A4 and the BMW 530 are not in the same class. You need an A6 if you want to compare an Audi with a BMW 530.

[ioan]

Moral of the story is that VAG cars are not as well built as they want you to think.

If an Audi breaks it's put down to luck of the draw

Or to the driver, who probably thought it was a Dodge RAM he was driving on the Rocky Mountains.

[ioan]

Actually, The Touran is a dodge Caravan/ Chrysler Town and Country, complete with a dodge V6, Not a Chevy at all. The VW Touran is built in the same factory as the Chryslers.

I don't know who built it but I had to use one once for a couple of days and it was one of the worse cars I ever drove. Very uncomfortable.

[Daniel]

Seems like someone has confused the
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Touran

With the
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Routan

which is indeed based on the
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_Caravan#Volkswagen_Routan

;)

[ioan]

Seems like someone has confused the
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Touran

With the
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Routan

which is indeed based on the
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_Caravan#Volkswagen_Routan

;)

Ah that clears it up now.
Strange that mstillhere would make such a silly mistake, he who knows everything about VW! ;)

PS: I was obviously referring to the Touran being a piece of smelly stuff, at least in my opinion.

[Cooper_S]

Does any of this answer why VW would be interested in Ferrari? No. :bigcry:

There are any number of reasons why they would want it... the most compelling is smpley because they don't currently own it.

You'd have thought owning the likes of Volkswagen, AUDI, Lamborghini, Bentley, Bugatti, SEAT and Škoda would be enough for the V.A.G.

Seriously they should be reported to the Competition Commission.

[ioan]

There are any number of reasons why they would want it... the most compelling is smpley because they don't currently own it.

You'd have thought owning the likes of Volkswagen, AUDI, Lamborghini, Bentley, Bugatti, SEAT and Škoda would be enough for the V.A.G.

Seriously they should be reported to the Competition Commission.

You forgot Porsche in that impressive list.
The irony of it being that they had, due to the laws, to buy a majority package in Porsche after Porsche's failed attempt to take over VW!

[Cooper_S]

Porsche as well, do VAG really need (or want) Ferrari.

[ioan]

Porsche as well, do VAG really need (or want) Ferrari.

They do not need Ferrari.
Do they want it? Who knows?
I guess we can only wait for the moment when they take it over, than we will know it for sure. ;)

[mstillhere]

I guess one must be an Alonso fan to post such childish garbage.

It's hard to believe that you drive a VW SUV or pickup and you don't even know that VW produce them, or are you just kidding yourself?

BTW, learn to use a smiley instead of the caps lock rubbish you post it will make you look smart. :rotflmao:

That's what I posted in my message: "And he thought he was going to teach me a lesson showing me pictures of the car owned by my brother and that I drive every other day." and you say: "It's hard to believe that you drive a VW SUV or pickup and you don't even know that VW produce them, or are you just kidding yourself?".

Let me try this one more time: I don't own the Toureg, I never wrote that. My BROTHER does! I also wrote that I am WELL aware of the cars made by Vw and Audi. You just don't get the message or just pretend.

And I want to thank that gentleman who corrected me saying that the VW mini-van is produced by Chrysler, becasue that means that VW is going to get their mini-vans strait from.........FIAT. :) :) :)
Isn't that ironic???

Finally, I have definetly NOTHING to learn from you. You just run your mouth thinking you are the most knowledgeble person in this site. Guess what? You are not. There are plenty of people here who post very interesting messages. However there is a difference between you and them. They are civil, and you are not. You very often insult people, including me, showing that you are not capable of respecting other people opinions. And this is a very basic but important principle in any civilzed and democratic society. And you need to learn that sir if you like democracy and pluralism of course.

[mstillhere]

Chrysler builds VERY popular trucks perfectly suited for American needs, as does each of the American companies. Does anyone in Europe to speak of have much need for a 1 ton 4wd diesel truck that can haul a house up the side of a mountain? No, but they also build a very nice SUV in the new Grand Cherokee that will give them market share they don't have,The luxury/high performance SUV, but it will be in an Italian suit, not blue jeans and flannel. Will it have a Chrysler engine or a Maserati engine? To be honest, likely both will be available depending on the equipment level. It will likely have a Europe only diesel option focused on fuel economy in European guise. Unfortunately, in the US, it won't get play from US customers,(even if it is as powerful as a v8 with 40% better economy) because women driving SUV's won't pull up to dirty smelly diesel pumps and screw up their new maincure

I stand corrected, Nigel. For some reason I though it was Chevy but it is Chrysler. However my point was that VW does not make any SUVs and I do agree with you about VW wanting to be in every segment of the car market. And in the attempt in doing that they might strech themselves to thin. Could FIAT do the same as well. Could be a mistake? I guess only time will tell.

[mstillhere]

Chrysler builds VERY popular trucks perfectly suited for American needs, as does each of the American companies. Does anyone in Europe to speak of have much need for a 1 ton 4wd diesel truck that can haul a house up the side of a mountain? No, but they also build a very nice SUV in the new Grand Cherokee that will give them market share they don't have,The luxury/high performance SUV, but it will be in an Italian suit, not blue jeans and flannel. Will it have a Chrysler engine or a Maserati engine? To be honest, likely both will be available depending on the equipment level. It will likely have a Europe only diesel option focused on fuel economy in European guise. Unfortunately, in the US, it won't get play from US customers,(even if it is as powerful as a v8 with 40% better economy) because women driving SUV's won't pull up to dirty smelly diesel pumps and screw up their new maincure

I stand corrected, Nigel. For some reason I though it was Chevy but it is Chrysler. However my point was that VW does not make any SUVs and I do agree with you about VW wanting to be in every segment of the car market. And in the attempt in doing that they might strech themselves to thin. Could FIAT do the same as well. Could be a mistake? I guess only time will tell.

[Daniel]

Porsche as well, do VAG really need (or want) Ferrari.

Did they really need all those brands?

[Mark]

Not that its relevant but over here the unleaded pump is as dirty as the diesel pump, so that would make little difference. :p :)

And it's always within a few inches of the petrol pump, so everyone that pulls up to a petrol pump also pulls up to a diesel one :p

[ioan]

Did they really need all those brands?

They had money to spare so they used it.

[nigelred5]

Not that its relevant but over here the unleaded pump is as dirty as the diesel pump, so that would make little difference. :p :)


I drove a jetta TDI for 5 years as my commuter car. It varies by fuel company here. Some diesel pumps are incorporated in the gasoline pumps but many are separate pumps. Regardless, most all end up an oily nasty mess from fuel overflow when trucks fill up. S

[nigelred5]

Seems like someone has confused the
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Touran

With the
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Routan

which is indeed based on the
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_Caravan#Volkswagen_Routan

;)

Yeah, My bad on the Touran/Routan. The Interior is unique to VW, but I still wouldn't buy one with the pos chrysler v6 engine it has come wiht up to now. Either way, neither has anything to do with a chevy. ;)

Obviously, VWAG has SEVERAL SUV's and a Minivan to offer the North American market in the VW Audi and Porsche brands. Name your poison. The only thing they don't really have is an inexpensive offering. Tiguan, Toureg, Routan, as well as the crossfox in Mexico. The Toureg is an awesome SUV, which is also the basis for the Q5/7 and Porsche Cayenne cousins. but it's too expensive due to many factors, mainly the weak dollar. Unfortunately, VW dropped the Passat Wagon due to poor sales, which had more to do with the styling of the Passat and the price than the market for wagons. There are thousands of the previous generation B5 wagon on the road. I've got three within a block of me, not counting my own.

For the life of me though, why won't VW just give me the option of a damn TDI across the model range. They have two EPA certified TDI's give me that option in every model. I've been very loyal to VWAG, but I think I'm finally going elsewhere for my next vehicle.

[nigelred5]

Did they really need all those brands?

They bought a ton of local market share and eliminated competition with the brands, then gradually cross pollenated some product. VW has one hell of a model range internationally in the VW brand alone. They have quite a lot of market specific and locally produced models around the world. I won't even begin to count when you factor in the Skoda SEAT Bentley Lamborghini Bugatti models. They face far more competition in the US and Americans didn't exactly take to their move upmarket. Smaller and less expensive is being tried by VW again with the Jetta, let's see how it works.

Back to Fiat, even though they bought Chrysler, Most of the new Fiat dealers that have been chosen so far are NOT existing Chrysler dealers. I think the parts and distribution channels are just as important as the dealer networkfor the Fiat brand, especially when one considers the government shut down about half of the former Dodge and Chrysler dealerships. Either way, they did get a very cheap exposure back into the US market, regardles of what they end up calling what they eventually end up selling here.