Did Ferrari management just throw the WDC away for Alonso???

[markabilly]

Looks to me that it is now possible that ferrari blew it with the pit stop.....

Did red bull sacrifice Webber to suck in Fred?
Fred better be able to keep a gap that puts him right behind Button or better hamilton of he may end up buried in the pack :eek:

[Daniel]

I said it on the main three. I think yes

[markabilly]

Stephano for donkey for year??......

[Mark]

Turns out the answer is yes!

[ioan]

They were thinking that 'six tenths' can pull it off with his 'talent' thus Stella's radio communication reminding Alonso how talented he was! :rotflmao:

[F1boat]

Stephano for donkey for year??......

I am afraid that a new team manager is needed.

[steveaki13]

To quote the great Michael Schumacher once.

" Your always more clever afterwards". :p

[markabilly]

I am afraid that a new team manager is needed.
Been that way, ever since the dream team left, one really very dumb mistake after another

I guess it even the score, given how Massa once ran out of gas going out to qualify....then the famous Singapore "pull out" that had the fuel hose going off to race with massa, a stupid thing since ferrari already had plenty of warning about the problem and that cost massa the wdc that year.....

so here they do it again.

They should have known that both Rosberg and petrov had already pitted and would try to go to the end without pitting....and this was a track where passing was very hard.

Incompetent.
Total :rolleyes:

[wedge]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

[Dave B]

Looks to me that it is now possible that ferrari blew it with the pit stop.....

No.

The championship is the sum of 19 races, and the actions of both team and driver decide who will win.

All the teams, and all the drivers, made mistakes this year. There's a thousand "ifs" and "buts" which could have decided the champion this year, Ferrari's poor strategy was just one of them.

[Firstgear]

Red Bull were right in keeping both of their drivers in the hunt, although most of us here thought otherwise a week ago.

Alonso/Ferrari could only try to cover off one of the Bulls, not both.

[N4D13]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
:)

I'm not really sure that he could have been in front of Rosberg and Petrov after his pitstop, even if he had delayed it for several laps. He wasn't much faster than them, and tyre degradation would have certainly been a problem. Yet everyone is criticising Ferrari for the strategy, while there is no way to be sure that the result would have been any better had Alonso not pitted. In the end, it would have depended a lot on how Alonso's tyres would have behaved, and it's difficult to ensure that they would have lasted enough.

[ioan]

:)

I'm not really sure that he could have been in front of Rosberg and Petrov after his pitstop, even if he had delayed it for several laps. He wasn't much faster than them, and tyre degradation would have certainly been a problem. Yet everyone is criticising Ferrari for the strategy, while there is no way to be sure that the result would have been any better had Alonso not pitted. In the end, it would have depended a lot on how Alonso's tyres would have behaved, and it's difficult to ensure that they would have lasted enough.

Had they waited 2 more laps Alonso would have came back on track behind Webber too.

The team tried first to cover Webber with Massa however it didn't work out, so they had to do it with Webber unless they knew that they can run at least another 10 laps with competitive pace on the soft tires, and they didn't want to take that risk.

[i_max2k2]

Looks to me that it is now possible that ferrari blew it with the pit stop.....

Did red bull sacrifice Webber to suck in Fred?
Fred better be able to keep a gap that puts him right behind Button or better hamilton of he may end up buried in the pack :eek:


I dont think Red Bull sacrificed, webber, his right rear touched the barriers and he was checking on the status of that tyre on the radio, it was probably a precaution to change the tyre, rather then take risk for a few more laps.

[markabilly]

I dont think Red Bull sacrificed, webber, his right rear touched the barriers and he was checking on the status of that tyre on the radio, it was probably a precaution to change the tyre, rather then take risk for a few more laps.
if that is the case, even more of a reason to NOT pit Fred

While Webber might have put a few hot laps in, the problem was all those backmarkers would have sooner or later hung Webber up (assuming petrov decided or was ordered to move over for Webber). The result would have been far different had FA ran much farther, just like Button, Seb, and the others did, before the pit.

And then there was Rosberg, who would not have moved over for Webber, and was clearly planing a run to the finish as Kubica, Koba, Hulkenberg, and others were trotting along for lap after lap after lap. Even if petrov moved over he would have still been stuck for lap after lap behind Hulkenberg

All things considered, the last two races decided the champisionship when Vettel stayed in front, sending the message to webber, and then the dumb pitstop, way too early in the race. Webber lost because of team managment. fred lost because of his own team's managment

[ioan]

if that is the case, even more of a reason to NOT pit Fred

While Webber might have put a few hot laps in, the problem was all those backmarkers would have sooner or later hung Webber up (assuming petrov decided or was ordered to move over for Webber). The result would have been far different had FA ran much farther, just like Button, Seb, and the others did, before the pit.

And then there was Rosberg, who would not have moved over for Webber, and was clearly planing a run to the finish as Kubica, Koba, Hulkenberg, and others were trotting along for lap after lap after lap. Even if petrov moved over he would have still been stuck for lap after lap behind Hulkenberg

All things considered, the last two races decided the champisionship when Vettel stayed in front, sending the message to webber, and then the dumb pitstop, way too early in the race. Webber lost because of team managment. fred lost because of his own team's managment

Webber lost because he was dead slow.
Alonso lost because his team is stupid (we all knew that since 2008) and because he wasn't able to overtake a rookie driver.

Vettel won because he did everything right and there was no need for a daring strategy.

Had Alonso or Webber qualified 1st they would have had half the job done before the race started.

[markabilly]

Webber lost because he was dead slow.
Alonso lost because his team is stupid (we all knew that since 2008) and because he wasn't able to overtake a rookie driver.

Vettel won because he did everything right and there was no need for a daring strategy.

Had Alonso or Webber qualified 1st they would have had half the job done before the race started.
Bingo. And bingo again.

[airshifter]

I think Alonso and Ferrari were in the same unfortunate position as Webber and Red Bull. Both were off the pace and had no chance of going to the front of the field. By reacting to Webber they at least covered the driver closest to Alonso in points, and from there all they could do was hope Sebastian and Lewis had problems up front.

Things didn't work out good today for Alonso, but it would have been even worse to not change tires and get put another place down by Webber during the pit cycle.

[Jag_Warrior]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I agree with this.^^^

Also... what good luck giveth, bad luck can taketh away! :D

[555-04Q2]

No.

The championship is the sum of 19 races, and the actions of both team and driver decide who will win.

All the teams, and all the drivers, made mistakes this year. There's a thousand "ifs" and "buts" which could have decided the champion this year, Ferrari's poor strategy was just one of them.

True that :up:

[Ari]

Webber lost because he was dead slow.
Alonso lost because his team is stupid (we all knew that since 2008) and because he wasn't able to overtake a rookie driver.

Vettel won because he did everything right and there was no need for a daring strategy.

Had Alonso or Webber qualified 1st they would have had half the job done before the race started.

Don't disagree with that at all!

But, where did Webbers pace go?! After Monaco, Silverstone and a few other circuits this year where he's dominated, he has been absolutely owned in the last third of the year. How does that work?

[Valve Bounce]

Looks to me that it is now possible that ferrari blew it with the pit stop.....

Did red bull sacrifice Webber to suck in Fred?
Fred better be able to keep a gap that puts him right behind Button or better hamilton of he may end up buried in the pack :eek:

Did you bother to reconsider that stupid thread you posted about how :"3 laps to go and Red Bull gives the championship from Webber to FA"?

If you bother to look at the OP of your previous stupid thread, maybe you would be a little more circumspect in posting any other stupid thread criticising any F1 team. I mean if you are going to say a heap of stupid stuff, then maybe you could identify such stupid threads with the stupid smilie as I have in the title of this post.

[ShiftingGears]

I'm sure RBR didn't intend it, but Alonso got sucked in and spat out last night. Well and truly.

[tmx]

Funny way of communicating to their drivers during the race. Domicelli asking Fernando to use the best of his talent only when they realized they're not going to get the title, probably frustrate him in the process. I can imagine Alonso thinking "what's that supposed to mean?".

[N4D13]

Funny way of communicating to their drivers during the race. Domicelli asking Fernando to use the best of his talent only when they realized they're not going to get the title, probably frustrate him in the process. I can imagine Alonso thinking "what's that supposed to mean?".
Actually, it was Andrea Stella who talked to Alonso. But bashing Domenicali every time Ferrari screws up seems to be a common activity to do on one's spare time.

[Valve Bounce]

I can't understand why Ferrari would want to cover Webber who was actually behind him. That's stupid. Why not just keep going. Maybe I'm stupid. :(

[Dave B]

Actually, it was Andrea Stella who talked to Alonso. But bashing Domenicali every time Ferrari screws up seems to be a common activity to do on one's spare time.
Whoever it was, it stuck me that they were afraid to upset their star driver. Compared to some teams' go-getting messages of encouragement, Ferrari seemed to be more like "look, we don't want to upset you and we know you're ever so talented, but would you mind awfully trying just a little bit harder your highness sir. Sorry to bother you". :p

[Valve Bounce]

Whoever it was, it stuck me that they were afraid to upset their star driver. Compared to some teams' go-getting messages of encouragement, Ferrari seemed to be more like "look, we don't want to upset you and we know you're ever so talented, but would you mind awfully trying just a little bit harder your highness sir. Sorry to bother you". :p

Maybe they shoulda told him the guy in front seems to be faster than him. :D

[CNR]

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/'Ashamed' Italian minister calls for di Montezemolo to resign

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/'Ashamed' Italian minister calls for di Montezemolo to resign

http://www.crash.net/f1/news/165087/1/ashamed_italian_minister_calls_for_di_montezemolo_ to_resign.html


As the fall-out from Ferrari's failure to clinch the F1 2010 Drivers' World Championship crown continues post-Abu Dhabi, an Italian minister has sensationally called for Luca di Montezemolo's head...

[markabilly]

Did you bother to reconsider that stupid thread you posted about how :"3 laps to go and Red Bull gives the championship from Webber to FA"?

If you bother to look at the OP of your previous stupid thread, maybe you would be a little more circumspect in posting any other stupid thread criticising any F1 team. I mean if you are going to say a heap of stupid stuff, then maybe you could identify such stupid threads with the stupid smilie as I have in the title of this post.


I can't understand why Ferrari would want to cover Webber who was actually behind him. That's stupid. Why not just keep going. Maybe I'm stupid. :(
You said it. Make up your mind or is your brain still spinning from seeing Webber kicked off in Brazil by his team and then freeddie kicked off by his team....

Or is it the strain of having to see Vettel is the one who profited and is now WDC???

:D

[markabilly]

'Ashamed' Italian minister calls for di Montezemolo to resign

'Ashamed' Italian minister calls for di Montezemolo to resign

http://www.crash.net/f1/news/165087/1/ashamed_italian_minister_calls_for_di_montezemolo_ to_resign.html

Last night I tried to think of a last race in the history of the WDC, where the driver leading, was called into the pits by such a stupid decision and ended up in mid pack, unable to do anything but trundle along until the end, blocked because as even FA has admitted, someone overlooked the fact that Rosberg and Petrov had already pitted and intended to run to the end on their tires.....

and the driver in second place, (webber) was also called into the pits to be similarly stuck.

Two stupid decisions, unless they really knew that the Webber rear tire was damaged

duh..... :rolleyes:

[Garry Walker]

I can't understand why Ferrari would want to cover Webber who was actually behind him. That's stupid. Why not just keep going. Maybe I'm stupid. :(

Because they were afraid Webber with new tyres would be so fast than once Alonso pitted, he would come out behind Webber. Then Alonso wouldnt have been in position to win the title anymore.

[wedge]

Because they were afraid Webber with new tyres would be so fast than once Alonso pitted, he would come out behind Webber. Then Alonso wouldnt have been in position to win the title anymore.

Eg. Button pitting early in Brazil

[D28]

Last night I tried to think of a last race in the history of the WDC, where the driver leading, was called into the pits by such a stupid decision and ended up in mid pack, unable to do anything but trundle along until the end, blocked because as even FA has admitted, someone overlooked the fact that Rosberg and Petrov had already pitted and intended to run to the end on their tires.....

I found the race very frustrating to watch, as 2 of the title contenders could not race their way toward the front of the pack. I prefer that the title is decided by racing rather than by qualifying and the luck of the draw from a 1st lap safety car. Granted, neither driver was helped by team strategy.
My recollection, say from the mid 1990s, is that drivers gave way to the contenders in the final race and let them go to it. In fairness usually only 2 contenders were involved, with much simpler points calculations. I do not expect the others simply to move over, but I would expect Alonso and Webber to be able to force their way by.
Two factors may be at play here IMO.

Abu Dhabi is not a classic GP layout by anyone's standards. Perhaps more thought should be given to the location of the final outing.
Current F1 cars remain plagued by the problem of overtaking. On a pedestrian circuit slower cars can keep quicker ones at bay indefinitely.
All said, Vettel certainly deserves congratulations for a superb effort.

[Valve Bounce]

You said it. Make up your mind or is your brain still spinning from seeing Webber kicked off in Brazil by his team and then freeddie kicked off by his team....

Or is it the strain of having to see Vettel is the one who profited and is now WDC???

:D

I have absolutely no issues with Vettel winning the championship. He qualified on pole, Mark was 5th. He lead from the start, Mark was 5th behind Alonso. Vettel drove like the champion that he is, and he won the championship fair and square - I have no problems with that. No team orders were necessary. I did not see Mark kicked off in Brazil, I did not see Mark kicked off in Abu Dabhi. He simply wasn't good enough on those two days and no good complaining that there was a conspiracy or team orders - there were none.

AS it turned out, Ferrari made a stupid tactical move to bring Fernando early for tyres; too bad.

But anyone that begrudges Vettel his championship has rocks in their head.

[Valve Bounce]

Last night I tried to think of a last race in the history of the WDC, where the driver leading, was called into the pits by such a stupid decision and ended up in mid pack, unable to do anything but trundle along until the end, blocked because as even FA has admitted, someone overlooked the fact that Rosberg and Petrov had already pitted and intended to run to the end on their tires.....

and the driver in second place, (webber) was also called into the pits to be similarly stuck.

Two stupid decisions, unless they really knew that the Webber rear tire was damaged

duh..... :rolleyes:

Webber and Alonso were called in by the stupidest pit crews imaginable. It was a dumb move, and I can't think of any logical nor mathematical explanation for it. In the final analysis, Webber didn't lose the championship - when he qualified 5th, and then ran 5th from the start, he was gone. That Ferrari should make a dumbass move to kill Fernando's chances was just plain stupid. All he had to do was continue to trundle along behind the two McLarens and the championship was his. What the hell??

[Valve Bounce]

Because they were afraid Webber with new tyres would be so fast than once Alonso pitted, he would come out behind Webber. Then Alonso wouldnt have been in position to win the title anymore.

OK! I'll bite - where did Webber come out after he pitted? and how many cars were there between him and the championship win? He was finished - gone, buried and cremated behind cars that were slower than Vettel and the two McLarens. He wasn't going to make up time on the leaders - he was going backwards :rolleyes:

[Rollo]

/forums/"][/URL]'Ashamed' Italian minister calls for di Montezemolo to resign[/B]


Roberto Calderoli, what a man. This is what he said after the World Cup in 2006:
http://www.ilgiornale.it/interni/calderoli_una_francia_fatta__negri_e_islamici/11-07-2006/articolo-id=103906-page=0-comments=1
Quella di Berlino è una vittoria della nostra identità, dove una squadra che ha schierato lombardi, campani, veneti o calabresi, ha vinto contro una squadra che ha perso, immolando per il risultato la propria identità, schierando negri, islamici e comunist
He complained about Italy lining up to play a French team full of "Niggers, Islamists and Communists" (his words not mine).

His opinion counts for a lot doesn't it? It would be like Nick Griffin telling Lewis Hamilton to leave the UK. Basically, Mr Calderoli's opinion is toxic, and he should be held up for the idiot he is.
The call for di Montezemolo to resign is a stupid call by a stupid person.

[Mark]

My recollection, say from the mid 1990s, is that drivers gave way to the contenders in the final race and let them go to it..

But we weren't talking about a situation where the drivers were equal on points and winner takes all. If all the non-contenders had let Alonso go, that would have given the title to Alonso.

Certainly Renault would be asking questions of Petrov - and probably showing him the door, if he had done.

[AndyL]

Because they were afraid Webber with new tyres would be so fast than once Alonso pitted, he would come out behind Webber. Then Alonso wouldnt have been in position to win the title anymore.

Whereas they should have been thinking about how fast Alonso was relative to Alguersuari and Petrov (who held up Webber or would have done so), rather than how fast Webber might have been on the new tyres. Easy in hindsight of course.

[markabilly]

I found the race very frustrating to watch, as 2 of the title contenders could not race their way toward the front of the pack. I prefer that the title is decided by racing rather than by qualifying and the luck of the draw from a 1st lap safety car. Granted, neither driver was helped by team strategy.
My recollection, say from the mid 1990s, is that drivers gave way to the contenders in the final race and let them go to it. In fairness usually only 2 contenders were involved, with much simpler points calculations. I do not expect the others simply to move over, but I would expect Alonso and Webber to be able to force their way by.
.


I agree, and later Petrov said what I was thinking, that if Alonso really stuck his nose in, Petrov would not have pushed him off track or had contact, for fear of the possible sanctions. (for pushing off the leader of the WDC by a non-contender--remember the contact between JV and MS??? at least they were fighting for the WDC.....))

So he bluffed Alonso, BIG TIME





But we weren't talking about a situation where the drivers were equal on points and winner takes all. If all the non-contenders had let Alonso go, that would have given the title to Alonso.

Certainly Renault would be asking questions of Petrov - and probably showing him the door, if he had done.

See above

I think when Vettel, a non-contender for the WDC broke this unspoken rule of not challengning the contenders in the last race of the season, that this may have shown something for future events---what I am talking about is when Hamilton won the WDC despite the pass from Vettel at Brazil that appeared to knock him out of it.

Meanwhile after the MS/JV clash, the others permitted JV to limp along in the lead for lap after lap until the last corner, when a certain mac driver passed him for his first f1 win, after Jock Clear had repeatedly reminded JV of the "agreement"

[D28]

Meanwhile after the MS/JV clash, the others permitted JV to limp along in the lead for lap after lap until the last corner, when a certain mac driver passed him for his first f1 win, after Jock Clear had repeatedly reminded JV of the "agreement"

The comparison with 1997 is interesting. Under the current regulations, just what would the FIA make of the Williams and McLaren radio traffic. At the time they were absolved of any accusations of collusion to fix the race results. The FIA had enough on its plate with the disqualification of M. Schumacher, from the title results, thus elevating HH Frentzen to second place.
This scenario may serve as a warning of the problem with a blanket rule for team orders covering all situations.

[Valve Bounce]

Whereas they should have been thinking about how fast Alonso was relative to Alguersuari and Petrov (who held up Webber or would have done so), rather than how fast Webber might have been on the new tyres. Easy in hindsight of course.

Not really, Andy. They could have checked their laptops and worked it out - the time delay for the pitstop/tyre change would have shown exactly where Alonso would have emerged from the pits and the cars ahead. That's what the guys in the pits looking at the computer is supposed to determine.

[Big Ben]

And we all would have been shocked when Petrov would have put up a fierce fight against the other renault powered car... just as fierce as the one the toro rosso showed a few laps earlier

[Big Ben]

I agree, and later Petrov said what I was thinking, that if Alonso really stuck his nose in, Petrov would not have pushed him off track or had contact, for fear of the possible sanctions. (for pushing off the leader of the WDC by a non-contender--remember the contact between JV and MS??? at least they were fighting for the WDC.....))

So he bluffed Alonso, BIG TIME


It makes the whole thing look more interesting but even Petrov admitted there was nothing great about his driving.

FA couldn't even get close enough to him to make an attempt... every time he tried something he went off road because he couldn´t get close without outbreaking himself.

FA did a very good race but it just happened that MS caused that crash and some cars pulled in and that was that. From that point forward Ferrari had it really tough. i guess they thought they have more chances against a renault than a redbull. And Massa was really lame once more. I really wonder why the team didn't let him get his lucky win this year at his team mate expense. :rolleyes: . Well, I don't acutally but it still seems to puzzle some

[Tazio]

:s ailor: Yes!! :kiss:

[Garry Walker]

OK! I'll bite - where did Webber come out after he pitted? and how many cars were there between him and the championship win? He was finished - gone, buried and cremated behind cars that were slower than Vettel and the two McLarens. He wasn't going to make up time on the leaders - he was going backwards :rolleyes: You`ll bite? :rotflmao:

Look, you clearly dont understand strategy at all.
1)Alonso had tyre issues on friday, the softs were not lasting at all well for him (or felipe). They were not sure how long they were going to be able to go on them.
2) Webber, once past JA, was showing very quick pace, including doing a purple in S3 that was 1 second faster than anyone elses time in that sector. One more lap for FA and Webbo would have been so close to him that once pitted, FA would have come out behind Webbo.
Now this is where tyre issues came to play, because if Alonso had experienced the kind of tyre issues with softs that he had on friday, he most likely would have started going slower than Rosberg and Petrov on hard tyres. So ferrari took the risk that they could get past Rosberg and Petrov instead of gambling on softs tyres lasting.

[ioan]

You`ll bite? :rotflmao:

Look, you clearly dont understand strategy at all.
1)Alonso had tyre issues on friday, the softs were not lasting at all well for him (or felipe). They were not sure how long they were going to be able to go on them.
2) Webber, once past JA, was showing very quick pace, including doing a purple in S3 that was 1 second faster than anyone elses time in that sector. One more lap for FA and Webbo would have been so close to him that once pitted, FA would have come out behind Webbo.
Now this is where tyre issues came to play, because if Alonso had experienced the kind of tyre issues with softs that he had on friday, he most likely would have started going slower than Rosberg and Petrov on hard tyres. So ferrari took the risk that they could get past Rosberg and Petrov instead of gambling on softs tyres lasting.

Exactly.
Ferrari's only mistake was to believe that Alonso would be able to get past, not sure on what they based their belief on.
It was funny to hear Stella kissing Alonso's rear in an attempt to make him drive faster! :D