Liberal Democrats

[Mark]

(Note to American members, this is a political party in the United Kingdom which has nothing whatsoever to do with the Democrats in the USA!)

The "student" riots in London yesterday have raised some interesting points with regard to the Liberal Democrats position, especially since before the election they were definitively against exactly what they are now pushing through.

Are they going to be able to survive as a distinct political party? Certainly for myself Liberal Democrats == Conservative Party. They have their place around the cabinet table at the moment but come 2015 (if we get that far) and the next election will they be able to stand on their own platform and attract their own voters, or will those who voted LibDem this year decide just to vote Labour or Tory instead and cut out the middle man?

Have they consigned themselves to years in the wilderness and a long spell of 2 party politics in the UK?

[Eki]

Liberal Democrats? What next, Conservative Republicans?

[ArrowsFA1]

Have they consigned themselves to years in the wilderness and a long spell of 2 party politics in the UK?
The current situation is somewhat similar to the then Liberal Party's role in Ramsay MacDonald's National government in the 1930's. From that point on the party, and their declining number of MP's, declined in influence and importance.

The LibDems could suffer the same fate, and standing in the next election as a distinct party with their own policies will be a very difficult trick to carry off.

On another note I hadn't realised there was still a Liberal Party in the UK - http://www.liberal.org.uk/

[Sonic]

Well as someone who voted LD I'm not overjoyed at the compromises they are making; compromises I doubt they would have needed to make if the huge amount of tactical voting hadn't occurred. They may have won 100+ seats and be a in a Far better position to dictate terms. As it is I guess they will suffer in the wilderness for a few years - any accomplishments in their term will be accredited to the Tories, and any failures to them - it's loose/loose.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

The only thing that might save the Lib Dems is if they manage to push through an alternative voting system that will give them a better proportion of seats. But they wont have a good election next time and maybe not have one for a decade.

If RedEd moves the Labour party further to the left then the Lib Dems might find themselves in the centre. This might help them out too.

[Sonic]

Ed would be mad to move them left. You don't win elections by catering to the party faithful.

[Dave B]

The Lib Dems are royally screwed, which is what happens when sell your soul for a shot at power.

I briefly held out the hope that Vince Cable would be the voice of sanity, a sort of Trojan horse within the coalition, but he now appears as hypocritical as the rest of them.

Bunch of disgraceful liars who will deservedly be ditched at the next election.

[wedge]

The Lib Dems are royally screwed, which is what happens when sell your soul for a shot at power.

I briefly held out the hope that Vince Cable would be the voice of sanity, a sort of Trojan horse within the coalition, but he now appears as hypocritical as the rest of them.

Bunch of disgraceful liars who will deservedly be ditched at the next election.

I used to be in favour of a coalition (ie. when I studied politics at A level) but the situation and circumstances we live in now such compromises can be/are uncomprehendable. It does make me wonder how a small majorities/minority governments will work in future.

[BDunnell]

I used to work for a Lib Dem MP, and carried on helping him after I switched jobs. Not any more I won't be. Like the FDP in Germany, they will now be seen as a coalition partner party, rather than a distinctive force of their own. And over tuition fees there are few polite words to describe them other than unprincipled, hypocritical and opportunistic. It will come back to bite them, though.

I was delighted yesterday that some of the protesting students decided to break into Tory Central Office and climb on the roof. Shame they didn't piss through the letterbox at Lib Dem HQ as well.

[BDunnell]

On another note I hadn't realised there was still a Liberal Party in the UK - http://www.liberal.org.uk/

Not just that, but...

http://www.socialdemocraticparty.co.uk/

[MrMetro]

I very much doubt that the Lib Dems will be very popular in the next general election. Since joining up with the Tory's, they become as bad as the other two main political partys.

At the next General election, I will be voting for UKIP.

[BDunnell]

I very much doubt that the Lib Dems will be very popular in the next general election. Since joining up with the Tory's, they become as bad as the other two main political partys.

At the next General election, I will be voting for UKIP.

Given the fact that a number of UKIP candidates and MEPs have, at various times, received various criminal convictions (including while in office), the notion that this party of xenophobic loonies is in any sense superior to any other is far-fetched.

[MrMetro]

Given the fact that a number of UKIP candidates and MEPs have, at various times, received various criminal convictions (including while in office), the notion that this party of xenophobic loonies is in any sense superior to any other is far-fetched.

Well I prefer their polices to other partys, and they are nothing like those thug partys, the BNP and the National Front...

[Captain VXR]

Well I prefer their polices to other partys, and they are nothing like those thug partys, the BNP and the National Front...

I don't really agree with many of UKIP's policies, BUT at least they speak their mind and aren't afraid of offending others

BNP and NF are c u next tuesdays

[MrMetro]

Oh yeah, if anyone thinks I'm racist because I like a party that wants to limit immigration, then I'm far from it. I just think the UK is getting too densley populated, and can't really cope as it is. Plus I'm not really a fan of some of the EU's policy's.

[fandango]

I was about to slag Dave B a little for typing "a sort of Trojan horse within the coalition", as in What the hell does that mean?, until I read the rest of the posts.

Not being afraid of offending others is not a strength in itself, Captain VXR, just probably evidence of a disregard for what people think, so you could expect the same hypocrisy from them if they ever got into power.

And what are these EU policies that you don't like IronRooster92? How about an example, in the interests of enlightened debate...

[Rollo]

Are they going to be able to survive as a distinct political party?

or will those who voted LibDem this year decide just to vote Labour or Tory instead and cut out the middle man?

Have they consigned themselves to years in the wilderness and a long spell of 2 party politics in the UK?

1. I think that they will survive as a distinct party as long as the Labour Party continues to shift to the right and the Tories remain on the right.

2. The Election in the UK returned a result which I think reflected the mood of the British people. They were disgusted and sick of the Labour Party but collectively didn't want to put the Tories in either. The LibDem vote wasn't a vote for positive policy but a rejection of the two majors.
To put that in perspective, they actually lost 5 seats compared with the '05 election.

3. Very much so.
One of the consequences of Duverger's law is that where you have a single-winner voting system (ie one person wins a given seat), then the system tends towards two parties in the long run.
Even if there was an alternative vote as per the Australian equivalent of the House of Commons, it still applies.

[ioan]

Well as someone who voted LD I'm not overjoyed at the compromises they are making; compromises I doubt they would have needed to make if the huge amount of tactical voting hadn't occurred. They may have won 100+ seats and be a in a Far better position to dictate terms. As it is I guess they will suffer in the wilderness for a few years - any accomplishments in their term will be accredited to the Tories, and any failures to them - it's loose/loose.

In a word they are crappy politicians. Most politicians are crap anyway, so don't worry the next ones won't be much better either. ;)

[ioan]

And what are these EU policies that you don't like IronRooster92? How about an example, in the interests of enlightened debate...

I am curious too!

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I briefly held out the hope that Vince Cable would be the voice of sanity, a sort of Trojan horse within the coalition, but he now appears as hypocritical as the rest of them.


Lets not forget that Vince recently stood in the way of Rupert Murdoch taking over a huge share of the UK news media. I doubt the Tories would have stopped him.




I very much doubt that the Lib Dems will be very popular in the next general election. Since joining up with the Tory's, they become as bad as the other two main political partys.

At the next General election, I will be voting for UKIP.

Nigel Farage is one of the worst and deluded politicians I have ever heard speak.

[MrMetro]

And what are these EU policies that you don't like IronRooster92? How about an example, in the interests of enlightened debate...

perhaps that criminals can easily get into other countrys.

A currency which has wrecked several major players in Europe (Spain, Portugal and Greece)

Stupid fishing laws. British fishermen in Hull had to discharge large amounts of fish, then Icelandic fisherman were able to stroll in and take the fish, after all, there not part of the EU.

Well there you go, my reasons.

[ioan]

perhaps that criminals can easily get into other countrys.

And at the same time they can be easily caught and sent back. non issue.


A currency which has wrecked several major players in Europe (Spain, Portugal and Greece)

And how exactly does the Euro influence your life when you use pounds anyway? Non issue again.


Stupid fishing laws. British fishermen in Hull had to discharge large amounts of fish, then Icelandic fisherman were able to stroll in and take the fish, after all, there not part of the EU.

Well there you go, my reasons.

This is a strange one, what exactly does the law say?
Are you a fisherman?

[BDunnell]

Oh yeah, if anyone thinks I'm racist because I like a party that wants to limit immigration, then I'm far from it. I just think the UK is getting too densley populated, and can't really cope as it is. Plus I'm not really a fan of some of the EU's policy's.

Densely. Policies.

Funny how such views as yours are often expressed in poor English.

[ShiftingGears]

Densely. Policies.

Funny how such views as yours are often expressed in poor English.

Indeed.

[Dave B]

Lets not forget that Vince recently stood in the way of Rupert Murdoch taking over a huge share of the UK news media. I doubt the Tories would have stopped him.

Not quite: he's merely referred the deal to OFCOM, in my opinion so that they can be seen to be acting. When OFCOM rubber-stamp the deal, Cable can claim he did the right thing.



Nigel Farage is one of the worst and deluded politicians I have ever heard speak.
This is true. UKIP are merely the BNP in better suits.

[Dave B]

This is a strange one, what exactly does the law say?
Are you a fisherman?
It's true that there are some bizarre laws and regulations, especially regarding food production. However, the UK pulling out of the EU or sticking our heads in the sand isn't the answer, no matter what UKIP or large swathes of the Conservatives may want to believe.

The UK's historic error was trying to cosy up to both the USA and continental Europe at the same time, ending up a poor relation to both. We should have embraced the EEC (as was) from day one, and made sure that we were right in the heart of the decision making process from the very beginning instead of fannying around on the sidelines because politicians were scared of losing votes from a few people who believed "now they're banning the BRITISH pint" type headlines.

[Mark]

The UK's historic error was trying to cosy up to both the USA and continental Europe at the same time, ending up a poor relation to both. We should have embraced the EEC (as was) from day one, and made sure that we were right in the heart of the decision making process from the very beginning instead of fannying around on the sidelines because politicians were scared of losing votes from a few people who believed "now they're banning the BRITISH pint" type headlines.

Quite agree, but you can understand it was very difficult for the British mindset to be able to adapt. We'd gone from having a vast Empire and being the victors in a war which we didn't start; to then become part of a big 'club' of nations where you share responsibility is not going to be easy.

Plus of course it was largely France and Germany that drove the formation of the EEC, the UK wanted to be a member long before it actually did join and it was the French in the shape of Charles de Gaulle who put a stop to it. (Ungrateful swine you may say ;) ).

But I do agree that if the UK had been much more closely involved from the start and we'd had the big three of UK-France-Germany instead of the big two, we'd likely gave quite a different Europe now to the one you see which has been set up largely to the benefit of the big continental countries rather than us. So it's hardly any surprise we don't like what they are doing when we weren't involved in setting it up!

[MrMetro]

Wow! What can I say, have I upset some EU lovers or what on here!?

[MrMetro]

Densely. Policies.

Funny how such views as yours are often expressed in poor English.

Let me guess, I expressed a negative view about something you probably agree with, you got annoyed, so being rather petty, you decided to point out my grammer?

[MrMetro]

Densely. Policies.

Funny how such views as yours are often expressed in poor English.

If your a fan of the EU and don't like my viewpoints, then there is no need to be petty and point out my grammer mistakes...

[Daniel]

Lol. R u 4 reel iron rooter?

[Mark]

If your a fan of the EU and don't like my viewpoints, then there is no need to be petty and point out my grammer mistakes...

Not grammar, but spelling!

[MrMetro]

Lol. R u 4 reel iron rooter?


Wow. Your really mature.

[fandango]

If your a fan of the EU and don't like my viewpoints, then there is no need to be petty and point out my grammer mistakes...

He's actually doing you a favour. People will take your message more seriously if you take the time to write it correctly. That is, of course, just my opinion.

By the way, "your" denotes possession, as in "Your vote counts".

"If you're a fan" is what you should have written. And there's only one way to spell grammar.

Sorry if it offends you, but it makes a difference to some people.

[MrMetro]

He's actually doing you a favour. People will take your message more seriously if you take the time to write it correctly. That is, of course, just my opinion.

By the way, "your" denotes possession, as in "Your vote counts".

"If you're a fan" is what you should have written. And there's only one way to spell grammar.

Sorry if it offends you, but it makes a difference to some people.

It does not offend me. I said I found petty.

[MrMetro]

I stand by my viewpoints. If particular members of this forum want to attack me, then feel free.

The reason I wrote about fishermen in Hull not being able to fish freely, is because I do not live far from Hull. Those fishermen's livelihood is being wrecked, while other fishermen can just stroll in and take the remains. It's not exactly fair is it?

[wedge]

I used to work for a Lib Dem MP, and carried on helping him after I switched jobs. Not any more I won't be. Like the FDP in Germany, they will now be seen as a coalition partner party, rather than a distinctive force of their own.

Why should that be any surprise? They'll never get a small majority in a general election.

Only way LD will ever be in power is via a coalition regardless of electoral systems.

A force of their own? Pffft, the Cabinet is replacable with Yes (Wo)Men towing the government line.

[BDunnell]

He's actually doing you a favour. People will take your message more seriously if you take the time to write it correctly. That is, of course, just my opinion.

By the way, "your" denotes possession, as in "Your vote counts".

"If you're a fan" is what you should have written. And there's only one way to spell grammar.

Sorry if it offends you, but it makes a difference to some people.

Exactly right.

[BDunnell]

If your a fan of the EU and don't like my viewpoints, then there is no need to be petty and point out my grammer mistakes...

I am merely pointing out the fact, which may be a bit subtle for you, that xenophobic viewpoints such as yours are often expressed by, shall we say, the less literate. This therefore makes it hard to take them seriously.

[MrMetro]

I am merely pointing out the fact, which may be a bit subtle for you, that xenophobic viewpoints such as yours are often expressed by, shall we say, the less literate. This therefore makes it hard to take them seriously.

OK then

[MrMetro]

I am merely pointing out the fact, which may be a bit subtle for you, that xenophobic viewpoints such as yours are often expressed by, shall we say, the less literate. This therefore makes it hard to take them seriously.

Ok then

:rolleyes:

[MrMetro]

I am merely pointing out the fact, which may be a bit subtle for you, that xenophobic viewpoints such as yours are often expressed by, shall we say, the less literate. This therefore makes it hard to take them seriously.

personally, I find that statement quite patronising

[Daniel]

I am merely pointing out the fact, which may be a bit subtle for you, that xenophobic viewpoints such as yours are often expressed by, shall we say, the less literate. This therefore makes it hard to take them seriously.

Wot e said!

[MrMetro]

Wot e said!

:o

[Daniel]

It does not offend me. I said I found petty.

Listen, I'm not even English, I'm an immigrant and I can speak the proper English ja? (sic)

If you actually take the time to spell things properly people will take you a lot more seriously. Your simplistic views are just embarassing IMHO.

[MrMetro]

Listen, I'm not even English, I'm an immigrant and I can speak the proper English ja? (sic)

If you actually take the time to spell things properly people will take you a lot more seriously. Your simplistic views are just embarassing IMHO.

Daniel, after reading many of your posts on this forum, I can say IMHO, that you are a arrogant person. I couldn't care less what you think about me.

[fandango]

Daniel, after reading many of your posts on this forum, I can say IMHO, that you are a arrogant person. I couldn't care less what you think about me.

Why is it so, soo, difficult for people to say something as simple as "yeah, I see what you mean" or something like that? It's not admitting you're wrong. It may even help your case. If you really don't care what people think, or you think they're petty, you wouldn't bother debating with them. But you debate and pretend you're not. Why do so many people think the cleverest thing is to be "not bovvered"?

Get off your high horse, recognise your mistakes for what they are, and move on.

[J4MIE]

I am shocked at how easily the Lib Dems are folding in government, breaking promises left right and centre, and it seems to be the same "we didn't realise the extent of the problem" excuse - not acceptable IMHO.

Incidentally, I notice that it is one of UKIP's policies to "Repeal the 1998 Human Rights Act and withdraw from the European Convention on Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms". Nice :)

[Daniel]

That's lovely isn't it? Yet people still think they're fighting for the average Brit....

[Dave B]

Even worse, it seems that the Lib Dems already had plans to drop their opposition to raising tuition fees even before the election, in the event of a hung parliament.



A month before Clegg pledged in April to scrap the "dead weight of debt", a secret team of key Lib Dems made clear that, in the event of a hung parliament, the party would not waste political capital defending its manifesto pledge to abolish university tuition fees within six years. In a document marked "confidential" and dated 16 March, the head of the secret pre-election coalition negotiating team, Danny Alexander, wrote: "On tuition fees we should seek agreement on part-time students and leave the rest. We will have clear yellow water with the other [parties] on raising the tuition fee cap, so let us not cause ourselves more headaches."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/nov/12/lib-dems-tuition-fees-clegg

What happened to this proposed new rule where the public could force out an MP who broke election promises? Not so keen to introduce this now, are they? :s

[wedge]

What happened to this proposed new rule where the public could force out an MP who broke election promises? Not so keen to introduce this now, are they? :s

What election promises? That goes out the window the minute you have negotiations for a coalition.

What is disgusting is Clegg's retort 'I now regret signing thoses pledges' oh and by the way what about being answerable and wanting to win back those who voted for you.

[Daniel]

What election promises? That goes out the window the minute you have negotiations for a coalition.

What is disgusting is Clegg's retort 'I now regret signing thoses pledges' oh and by the way what about being answerable and wanting to win back those who voted for you.

Stick a fork in the Lib Dems. They're done....

[MrMetro]

I don't like getting in disputes, so Daniel, I'm sorry for calling you arrogant. I didn't realise that people would take my views more serious if my spelling was better. You see, I often get caught up in forum debates, and type without thinking, hence my bad spelling.

I can understand why some people do not like UKIP, perhaps Nigel Farage is a bit nuts, who knows, but I may vote for them at the next election.

[BDunnell]

I am shocked at how easily the Lib Dems are folding in government, breaking promises left right and centre, and it seems to be the same "we didn't realise the extent of the problem" excuse - not acceptable IMHO.

This position of theirs indicates that they were not, therefore, a competent opposition, for had they been they would have been well aware of the extent of the problems affecting the public finances — in spite of the fact that they were keen to come across during the campaign as having been well aware of that fact. Which is it, I wonder?

[BDunnell]

What is disgusting is Clegg's retort 'I now regret signing thoses pledges' oh and by the way what about being answerable and wanting to win back those who voted for you.

It would be nice to hear from him as to whether or not he has similar regrets about any other policies, or just this one now that it has caused him and his colleagues a problem.

[Mark]

Same of the Tories too. The state of the economy is a matter of public record. They cannot claim to be surprised by it!

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I don't like getting in disputes, so Daniel, I'm sorry for calling you arrogant. I didn't realise that people would take my views more serious if my spelling was better. You see, I often get caught up in forum debates, and type without thinking, hence my bad spelling.

I can understand why some people do not like UKIP, perhaps Nigel Farage is a bit nuts, who knows, but I may vote for them at the next election.

It is quite refreshing to see an apology on the forum. :up:

UKIP can't be taken as a serious party. They wanted to build 3 new aircraft carriers for the Royal Navy. We can barely afford one!

[Daniel]

I don't like getting in disputes, so Daniel, I'm sorry for calling you arrogant. I didn't realise that people would take my views more serious if my spelling was better. You see, I often get caught up in forum debates, and type without thinking, hence my bad spelling.

I can understand why some people do not like UKIP, perhaps Nigel Farage is a bit nuts, who knows, but I may vote for them at the next election.

No need to apologise. It's the internet and anyone who gets offended if someone calls them arrogant should stay away.

Stick to your guns and defend your opinions vigorously ;) But do think about things. Are UKIP really standing up for British people OR do they just not want to see Asians, black people and Eastern Europeans around purely on the basis of where they come from or what they look like. I think UKIP and the like try to latch onto things that are seen to be British and make a mountain out of a molehill like saying that "The pint is going to be banned" as if this is going to mean that if you go out on a Saturday night you're not going to be buy a glass of approximately half a litre of beer. After all, who wouldn't be against people who want to ban people from drinking a pint of beer?

I even remember one hilarious poster's argument on a thread about metric measurements when he said "If we adopt kph then it'll no longer be 100 miles between place x and place y" completely missing the point that the distance would remain the same and that adopting metric measurements simply makes for far simpler conversions and so on.

[Bolton Midnight]

I think the whole 'surprised by how bad it really is' argument is because Liebour lied and covered it up, this is all their fault not the Coalition or even the bankers, 10m public sector folk, dole scroungers galore living in £1000 a week London pads - all their doing, please remember this when ranting and raving against the Coalition.

Odd that students feel it is now worth rioting about yet didn't when Liebour introduced fees in the first place.

Somebody has to pay for education and why not those who will reap the benefits in future higher salaries (providing their are bright enough to do a proper degree).

Re EU it's corrupt gravy train, we should have been given a referendum by His Toniness (aka mass murderer)

http://eutruth.org.uk/

Lib Dems could say what they wanted as they were never going to get in, breaking manifesto promises nowt new Liebour were brill at it.

[BDunnell]

I think the whole 'surprised by how bad it really is' argument is because Liebour lied and covered it up, this is all their fault not the Coalition or even the bankers, 10m public sector folk, dole scroungers galore living in £1000 a week London pads - all their doing, please remember this when ranting and raving against the Coalition.

Odd that students feel it is now worth rioting about yet didn't when Liebour introduced fees in the first place.

Somebody has to pay for education and why not those who will reap the benefits in future higher salaries (providing their are bright enough to do a proper degree).

Re EU it's corrupt gravy train, we should have been given a referendum by His Toniness (aka mass murderer)

http://eutruth.org.uk/

Lib Dems could say what they wanted as they were never going to get in, breaking manifesto promises nowt new Liebour were brill at it.

Again, one of my points above is proved...

And about students not having protested when fees were introduced, (a) they did, just not to such an extent, and (b) the issue now is the huge rise.

[Daniel]

I think the whole 'surprised by how bad it really is' argument is because Liebour lied and covered it up, this is all their fault not the Coalition or even the bankers, 10m public sector folk, dole scroungers galore living in £1000 a week London pads - all their doing, please remember this when ranting and raving against the Coalition.

Odd that students feel it is now worth rioting about yet didn't when Liebour introduced fees in the first place.

Somebody has to pay for education and why not those who will reap the benefits in future higher salaries (providing their are bright enough to do a proper degree).

Re EU it's corrupt gravy train, we should have been given a referendum by His Toniness (aka mass murderer)

http://eutruth.org.uk/

Lib Dems could say what they wanted as they were never going to get in, breaking manifesto promises nowt new Liebour were brill at it.

Can I please have the address of your dealer?

[Mark]

It was George Osbournes *job* to know exactly the state of the economy. It doesn't matter if Labour lied or not the numbers were there for him to draw his own conclusions. If he was 'surprised' then that is only down to his own incompetence.

[Bolton Midnight]

Labour themselves didn't know the extent of how bad they had made things so how the hell was the opposition meant to know?

Take that as a 'don't know' Daniel shall I?

c) it's actually better now for the students than it was but don't let facts get in the way of a clueless rant.

[Daniel]

Labour themselves didn't know the extent of how bad they had made things so how the hell was the opposition meant to know?

Take that as a 'don't know' Daniel shall I?

c) it's actually better now for the students than it was but don't let facts get in the way of a clueless rant.


Please come up with something better than "I know I am, but what are you?" next time please.....

[Bolton Midnight]

Can I please have the address of your dealer?

err

lead by example please


The only people who use a drug dealer are those incapable of seeing how much damage 13 years of control freak lying murdering Liebour have done to the UK.

You'd have to be completely mental or just a bit dim to think the Coalition could do anywhere near as much damage.

[Mark]

They already are doing...

[Daniel]

err

lead by example please


The only people who use a drug dealer are those incapable of seeing how much damage 13 years of control freak lying murdering Liebour have done to the UK.

You'd have to be completely mental or just a bit dim to think the Coalition could do anywhere near as much damage.
Any particular reason why you've got yourself in such a tizz over my post as to reply twice to it?

Any particular reason why you took a post of mine mocking those who seem to have issues with the EU and metric measurements and turn it into some statement where I seem to say that Labour are the bestest political party ever?

[Daniel]

They already are doing...

Yeah but man. He said LIEBOUR!!!!! They must all be liars and so on and so forth. That's nothing compared to the CONNSERVATIVES. They're in power for how long and the navy's first new nucular submarine runs aground! What has a conning tower. A submarine that's what ****ing does! Coincidence?!?!?! I think not!!!!!!!!!! Conning tower, CONNSERVATIVES..... you know it's true.

On the subject of my ridiculously moronic tangent, did anyone else see the front cover of private eye last week? :D

[BDunnell]

c) it's actually better now for the students than it was but don't let facts get in the way of a clueless rant.

In what sense do you speak on behalf of 'the students'? Or even have any idea at all?

[BDunnell]

The only people who use a drug dealer are those incapable of seeing how much damage 13 years of control freak lying murdering Liebour have done to the UK.

Who said satirical wit was dead?

[Bolton Midnight]

How by trying to reduce the massive debts Labour created whilst buying votes?

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/britains-trillion-pound-horror-story/4od#3139408

Or maybe by restoring some of the civil liberties of the voters that Labour did away with? They are certainly not as anti cars as the likes of Red Ed are, so bit bizarre to see support for the worst government this country has ever had on these pages, you do realise that if Red Ed had his way motor sport would be a thing of the past don't you?

Or is it maybe because they are trying to take kids out of poverty or lessen the gap that Labour widened between the haves and have nots?

Or have they started an illegal war in the last few weeks?

As someone from the NE I assume you're a public sector worker as of course most are (or on the dole)?

One N Daniel.

Students with brains (i.e. those finishing proper degrees agree with the fees) it's only the witless who shouldn't even be at Uni that think it's a bad idea. Nothing is free somebody has to pay somewhere, why should the bin men of today subsidise the lawyers of tomorrow?

So far they are doing okay, need much more cuts mind esp to non essential politically correct public sector jobs and to out of work slobs on the take. Sacking 2m public servants would be about right, few boundary changes to ensure Labour don't ever get in again, some tax cuts for the private sector to flourish and then happy days will be here again, just like when Maggie was at the helm, best PM we've ever had FACT.

[Rollo]

Students with brains (i.e. those finishing proper degrees agree with the fees) it's only the witless who shouldn't even be at Uni that think it's a bad idea. Nothing is free somebody has to pay somewhere, why should the bin men of today subsidise the lawyers of tomorrow?


Education usually leads to a more productive workforce. That more productive workforce leads to higher incomes and therefore a higher tax take in the future.
It is not the bin men of today who subsidise the lawyers of tomorrow but the lawyers of tomorrow in fact subsidising themselves.
Education in principle is an investment in the quality of the future workforce. A better quality workforce is able to produce more goods and services. Whilst it's true that nothing is free, investments have this bizarre tendancy to pay for themselves.

Society can of course choose to have an ill-educated workforce and they will continue to produce goods and services at cheaper labour costs, but do you honestly want to live in such a place?

[Mark]

Education usually leads to a more productive workforce. That more productive workforce leads to higher incomes and therefore a higher tax take in the future.
It is not the bin men of today who subsidise the lawyers of tomorrow but the lawyers of tomorrow in fact subsidising themselves.


I find the whole thing sickening tbh. And every party has to have their share of the blame, Labour for bringing in tuition fees and dropping grants in the first place and the Tories and Liberals for pushing them up so much.

Used to be a university eduation, just the same as a primary and secondary eduation, was seen as an investment by the country in its population. Who would then pay it back in terms of increased taxes and productivity. As such the only thing that mattered was how smart you were as to if you went to University.

Now they've completely turned it on it's head and if you come from a poor family you are likely to remain that way, there's already enough pressure on those from a poor background to ditch eduation and get a job, without the prospect of tens of thousands of pounds worth of debt that'll take the rest of their lives to pay off.

Those in charge just don't have a clue, and I include every polictical party in that.

[Mark]

Yeah but man. He said LIEBOUR!!!!! They must all be liars and so on and so forth. That's nothing compared to the CONNSERVATIVES. They're in power for how long and the navy's first new nucular submarine runs aground! What has a conning tower. A submarine that's what ****ing does! Coincidence?!?!?! I think not!!!!!!!!!! Conning tower, CONNSERVATIVES..... you know it's true.

On the subject of my ridiculously moronic tangent, did anyone else see the front cover of private eye last week? :D


:laugh: I do find the whole changing names to make a point thing childish in the extreme. If it be political parties or F1 drivers..

[BDunnell]

How by trying to reduce the massive debts Labour created whilst buying votes?

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/britains-trillion-pound-horror-story/4od#3139408

Or maybe by restoring some of the civil liberties of the voters that Labour did away with? They are certainly not as anti cars as the likes of Red Ed are, so bit bizarre to see support for the worst government this country has ever had on these pages, you do realise that if Red Ed had his way motor sport would be a thing of the past don't you?

Or is it maybe because they are trying to take kids out of poverty or lessen the gap that Labour widened between the haves and have nots?

Or have they started an illegal war in the last few weeks?

As someone from the NE I assume you're a public sector worker as of course most are (or on the dole)?

One N Daniel.

Students with brains (i.e. those finishing proper degrees agree with the fees) it's only the witless who shouldn't even be at Uni that think it's a bad idea. Nothing is free somebody has to pay somewhere, why should the bin men of today subsidise the lawyers of tomorrow?

So far they are doing okay, need much more cuts mind esp to non essential politically correct public sector jobs and to out of work slobs on the take. Sacking 2m public servants would be about right, few boundary changes to ensure Labour don't ever get in again, some tax cuts for the private sector to flourish and then happy days will be here again, just like when Maggie was at the helm, best PM we've ever had FACT.

Do you realise that other people can see what you're writing?

[Dave B]

I think the whole 'surprised by how bad it really is' argument is because Liebour lied and covered it up, this is all their fault not the Coalition or even the bankers, 10m public sector folk, dole scroungers galore living in £1000 a week London pads - all their doing, please remember this when ranting and raving against the Coalition.

Odd that students feel it is now worth rioting about yet didn't when Liebour introduced fees in the first place.

Somebody has to pay for education and why not those who will reap the benefits in future higher salaries (providing their are bright enough to do a proper degree).

Re EU it's corrupt gravy train, we should have been given a referendum by His Toniness (aka mass murderer)

http://eutruth.org.uk/

Lib Dems could say what they wanted as they were never going to get in, breaking manifesto promises nowt new Liebour were brill at it.
You are Quentin Letts and I claim my five pounds.

[N. Jones]

As an American who knows who the Lib Dems are, having watched a lot of British Politics (and staying up most of the night watching the election results), I have a question the Brits in the audience:

Have the Lib Dems made a "deal with the Devil"? I haven't been following British politics too closely lately, but it seems to me that whenever I see Nick Clegg speak, or sitting during PM question time, he always looks completely unhappy.

Thank.

[Mark]

Have the Lib Dems made a "deal with the Devil"? I haven't been following British politics too closely lately, but it seems to me that whenever I see Nick Clegg speak, or sitting during PM question time, he always looks completely unhappy.

Thank.

Yes, that's kind of the point of this thread. They've scarified many of their policies, and some would say their morals in order to get a little bit of power.

Time will tell on how they are judged on this.

[ArrowsFA1]

...Sacking 2m public servants would be about right...some tax cuts for the private sector to flourish and then happy days will be here again...
Because, of course, the private sector can right all the ills in this world :rolleyes:

[Bolton Midnight]

The Liberals were never going to get in so of course could say what they like in their manifesto 'Free Ferraris for everyone' as they knew they were never going to come good on their promises. Then shock horror due to boundary changes we end up with a hung parliament. Labour had made such a monumental mess of things they couldn't stay in power so it had to be Libs & Tories. Which meant the Liberals had to get serious all of a sudden and start saving the country from certain bankruptcy.

Fair enough a few clueless lefties may not like what is happening but I'd rather listen to the IMF myself.

How the hell does the nation benefit from a few million more media students? There's far too many thick kids going to Uni these days; they should be at College of Knowledge at best or better still shovelling chips at Maccy Ds.

If they are committed to learning then they will gladly take on this debt to further themselves if they aren't well they weren't that serious after all so probably will have dropped out, so best they stay at home.

The Private Sector creates the wealth the Public Sector just absorbs it and t has got way too big under the clowns Blair/Brown as turkeys don't vote for crimbo.

Buy anyroad no matter what you all think, Labour are out and will be for a very long time thank god. So happy days are here to stay - downsizing pointless public sector non jobs and hopefully tax cuts on the horizon.

[MrMetro]

So far they are doing okay, need much more cuts mind esp to non essential politically correct public sector jobs and to out of work slobs on the take. Sacking 2m public servants would be about right, few boundary changes to ensure Labour don't ever get in again, some tax cuts for the private sector to flourish and then happy days will be here again, just like when Maggie was at the helm, best PM we've ever had FACT.

I'm not a fan of new Labour because they are the conservatives in red.

Thatcher destroyed industry in this country. Mining, steel making and ship building, we were once the biggest shipbuilders in the world, but she wanted to replace industry with being greedy.

Councils also struggle to make money because she sold off council houses.

[Bolton Midnight]

I'm not a fan of new Labour because they are the conservatives in red.

Thatcher destroyed industry in this country. Mining, steel making and ship building, we were once the biggest shipbuilders in the world, but she wanted to replace industry with being greedy.

Councils also struggle to make money because she sold off council houses.

You do know more mines shut under Labour than under Tories don't you????

Unions did far more damage to our industries than any Tory government.

[N. Jones]

Yes, that's kind of the point of this thread. They've scarified many of their policies, and some would say their morals in order to get a little bit of power.

Time will tell on how they are judged on this.

Ah, okay. Sorry if I missed the point. :(
They do seem to have dumped a lot of their policies. I don't think they would be slashing the budget all over the place if they were in power.
I would also LOVE to see an inquiry into the illegalities of the Iraq war (as Mr. Clegg stated to Jack Straw during one PM questions time).

Do the British members here think this (this = coalition with the Tories) could be, if not the end of the party, a serious "whack to the knees" of the party?

If so, is there any one party that could truly become a powerful third party to Labour and Conservative if the Lib Dems fall by the wayside?

[MrMetro]

You do know more mines shut under Labour than under Tories don't you????

Unions did far more damage to our industries than any Tory government.

well the Tories started the process, and did they give a dam about the communities they were breaking up and destroying? NO. But everything was made better because people could buy shares in British Gas, and yuppys could make crap loads of cash and act arrogant about it WA-HOO!

[Hondo]

As I see it, greatly simplified, the Liberal Democrats are composed of many different philosophies and ideals that have banded together for strength through numbers. Beyond the desire of "sticking it to the man" there is a fair amount of diversity among the various factions that make up the party, some of which could be labelled fringe or out of the mainstream. Now that the Liberal Democrats are allowed to eat at the adult table they have a chance to use their table manners and demonstrate their ability to govern seriously. In order to be taken seriously, they also realize the importance of having
some of the sillier factions and their notions to remain eating in the kitchen at the kiddie table.

Might as well give the Lib Dems a chance. I don't know how they could make things worse.

[Bolton Midnight]

well the Tories started the process, and did they give a dam about the communities they were breaking up and destroying? NO. But everything was made better because people could buy shares in British Gas, and yuppys could make crap loads of cash and act arrogant about it WA-HOO!

Again for the hard of understanding; Labour closed more mines and the Unions caused the closure of a great deal of industry - not the Tories.

Which ever party was in power now be Tory, Lib/Lab, Lab, Tory/Lib would have to make huge cuts and why, because Lab nearly bankrupt the country because they are useless and corrupt (bribing folk to vote Labour with all these pc non jobs about 2m of them).

http://www.taxpayersalliance.com/

for a few facts rather than crap from lefties worried about the end of their gravy train

[MrMetro]

Again for the hard of understanding; Labour closed more mines and the Unions caused the closure of a great deal of industry - not the Tories.

Which ever party was in power now be Tory, Lib/Lab, Lab, Tory/Lib would have to make huge cuts and why, because Lab nearly bankrupt the country because they are useless and corrupt (bribing folk to vote Labour with all these pc non jobs about 2m of them).

http://www.taxpayersalliance.com/

for a few facts rather than crap from lefties worried about the end of their gravy train

But which government allowed the Police to use aggressive tactics which resulted in the death of some miners?

[Bolton Midnight]

What utter crap

David Wilkie, taxi driver killed by striking miners as he went about his usual business

David Jones, killed by a brick thrown by a striking miner

Joe Green, hit by a wagon

[MrMetro]

What utter crap

David Wilkie, taxi driver killed by striking miners as he went about his usual business

David Jones, killed by a brick thrown by a striking miner

Joe Green, hit by a wagon

No, it is not 'utter crap', utter crap is the things your precious Tories did to our once great country. We would not be in reccession if Thatcher had not encouraged risky business. Let me guess, you were one of those yuppys in the 80's?

[Bolton Midnight]

You said the police killed miners, they didn't. Miners killed miners - deal with it. Are you going to admit you were lying?

We are in the mess we are because Labour failed to regulate the banks and massively increased the public sector to bribe folk into voting Labour.

Sod all to do with Thatcher she made the country prosperous after the previous Labour government wrecked it, just like now, it's history repeating itself. But fortunately it'll be a long time (if ever) before Labour are at the helm to wreck things again.

[MrMetro]

You said the police killed miners, they didn't. Miners killed miners - deal with it. Are you going to admit you were lying?

We are in the mess we are because Labour failed to regulate the banks and massively increased the public sector to bribe folk into voting Labour.

Sod all to do with Thatcher she made the country prosperous after the previous Labour government wrecked it, just like now, it's history repeating itself. But fortunately it'll be a long time (if ever) before Labour are at the helm to wreck things again.

Wow, your modern history knowledge is lacking somewhat.

Thatcher got this country into recession in the late 80's. She started the process of greed and stupid business moves.

I notice you didn't respond to my comments about Thatcher destroying our shipbuilding business, once one of the biggest in the world...

[Bolton Midnight]

Late 80s early 90s a drop in the ocean compared with now. 1997 when the Tories handed the country over to Labour control it was in rude health financially - fact; deal with it please.

I did respond re shipbuilding as it was the Unions fault, not to mention cheap slave labour in places like India, Pakistan and China.

Still waiting for you to admit you were lying re coppers killing miners.

[MrMetro]

Still waiting for you to admit you were lying re coppers killing miners.

You'll be waiting forever, becuse it is true

[Bolton Midnight]

David Wilkie, taxi driver killed by striking miners as he went about his usual business

David Jones, killed by a brick thrown by a striking miner

Joe Green, hit by a wagon

Which bit of this are you failing to grasp?

Which miner was killed by a policeman in the UK under Tory rule?

Come on show me or admit you were lying or just continue to look a bit gutless and clueless at the same time.

Shortly after the strike started, the Yorkshire miner David Jones died on a picket line at Ollerton in Nottinghamshire. In June, Joe Green was crushed to death by a lorry while picketing at Ferrybridge Power Station near Pontefract. Later a taxi driver taking a miner back to work was killed in South Wales by a concrete block dropped from a motorway bridge.

[Bolton Midnight]

well I guess that is a bit like an admission, deleting your post IronRooster92

[MrMetro]

Late 80s early 90s a drop in the ocean compared with now. 1997 when the Tories handed the country over to Labour control it was in rude health financially - fact; deal with it please.

I did respond re shipbuilding as it was the Unions fault, not to mention cheap slave labour in places like India, Pakistan and China.

Still waiting for you to admit you were lying re coppers killing miners.

Perhaps I should of worded it differently, one miner was killed because of violence between miners and police. Now I am not saying some of the miners were saints, but many of them were having there livelihoods taken away from them. But how did Thatcher respond? By calling them the 'enemy within'

[Bolton Midnight]

I've detailed how the 3 were killed, he was hit by a brick thrown by a fellow miner, coppers have truncheons they aren't issued with house bricks you know?

Dropping paving slabs onto taxi drivers beneath bridges is a bit more than unsaintly in my book. Bit like this scum bag student dropping a fire extinguisher, he should be jailed for attempted murder.

Scargill was to blame for the strikes not the Tories, but his massive ego thought he could take her on, he couldn't, he did them a massive disservice (they have recently kicked him out of his free flat).

[MrMetro]

I've detailed how the 3 were killed, he was hit by a brick thrown by a fellow miner, coppers have truncheons they aren't issued with house bricks you know?

Dropping paving slabs onto taxi drivers beneath bridges is a bit more than unsaintly in my book. Bit like this scum bag student dropping a fire extinguisher, he should be jailed for attempted murder.

Scargill was to blame for the strikes not the Tories, but his massive ego thought he could take her on, he couldn't, he did them a massive disservice (they have recently kicked him out of his free flat).

ok ok, so the police didn't kill any miners, but they are there to keep the peace, is ATTACKING people doing that? No, it sure ain't. I can't wait when the NHS is privatised and you are winging about healthcare costs, but after all you didn't deny you were a yuppy, I'm sure you can afford it, not like us working class people...who were the miners, they were left in poverty, but did Thatcher or Tebbit give a dam? No, they acted arrogant about it. Its you who is clueless Bolton Midnght, just like every other Tory.

[MrMetro]

meh, if your gonna give me crap about not understanding, I don't care. If i had regrets over politics, life would be pretty boring.

I am, who I am

[Bolton Midnight]

ok ok, so the police didn't kill any miners

Well thank you for at least having the decency to admit you were making it up, shame you didn't stop there.



but they are there to keep the peace, is ATTACKING people doing that? No, it sure ain't. I can't wait when the NHS is privatised and you are winging about healthcare costs, but after all you didn't deny you were a yuppy, I'm sure you can afford it, not like us working class people...who were the miners, they were left in poverty, but did Thatcher or Tebbit give a dam? No, they acted arrogant about it. Its you who is clueless Bolton Midnght, just like every other Tory.


They are allowed to defend themselves against bolshy types trying to blackmail the country into submission.

I'd love the NHS to be privatised if only to see all the managers out on their useless ears.

Nahh neither a yuppy or rich, just someone who cares about the country and hates watching Labour (new or old) wreck it. It is going to take yonks to tidy up Blair/Brown's mess.

Once out of the Union's shadow didn't some of the mines re open, see private industry is the way forward not nationalised dinosaurs.

[MrMetro]

Dropping paving slabs onto taxi drivers beneath bridges is a bit more than unsaintly in my book. Bit like this scum bag student dropping a fire extinguisher, he should be jailed for attempted murder.



Well, I agree with you on that. I'm not sure I would him a scumbag, but acting stupid without care for others.

I think it is fair to say we have different political opinions on some issues. Lets just leave it at that.

[Bolton Midnight]

If you are an ex miner then yes your views will be tainted, but not long till your street party when Maggie snuffs it.

Striking benefits nobody, time the Unions wised up to that fact.

What the country needs right now is for folk to start spending and the only way that'll happen is with tax cuts (or certainly not tax rises) and the only way that can happen is with cut backs. I just hope it is the non essential folk made redundant but fear that for political window dressing reasons alone the left wingers will make certain it is front line services that suffer when that need not be the case.

[ArrowsFA1]

We are in the mess we are because Labour failed to regulate the banks...
But don't the banks represent the private sector and free enterprise which you seem to believe should be free to do what they need to do to create wealth for the good of the country? You want less government, and yet you blame Labour for not regulating a sector which sits in the private sector :crazy:

[Rollo]

But don't the banks represent the private sector and free enterprise which you seem to believe should be free to do what they need to do to create wealth for the good of the country? You want less government, and yet you blame Labour for not regulating a sector which sits in the private sector :crazy:

Free what they need to do? Um no.

The GFC was originally caused by a liquidity shortfall as a result of the collapse of the US housing bubble. Basically, banks around the world which were exposed to the risks suffered.
It comes down to exactly a lack of regulation.

Lending institutions were lending to people who shouldn't have been lent to; then selling on the debt securities. It is the stupidity of American lending laws that allows people to cancel a mortgage by turning in the keys, despite the debt not being discharged.
Packets of debt securities were then swapped with other packets of debt securities in the hope that by spreading the risk, then the costs of credit defaults would also be spread, but because the people who were originally lent the money in the first place were a bad risk then the whole system was doomed to fail.

I remember Alan Kohler the ABC's financial analyst, describing the situation like putting a steak into a cardboard box and then swapping your cardboard box with someone else. By packaging a whole bunch of steaks in a bigger cardboard box, no-one thought to actually open the boxes until the whole thing began to stink.

Prudent banking regulation and specifically regulation to do with lending criteria would have meant that this would have never happened.

In Australia all mortgages are lodged with the Lands Title Offices of the relevant state. Because anyone including the banks can check any lands title in the country, they can check if any mortgages, caveats or charges already stand on property. For this reason there is no such thing as a sub-prime mortgage market in Australia, and because Australian banks weren't exposed as much to the US market, Australia never went into recession.

[Hondo]

Nor does it help when the government insists on awarding home mortgages to people that are in no way financially qualified to own a house or pay a mortgage. You have to give the Democrats and the Black Congressional Caucus substantial credit for their parts in this mess. Regulation is a 2 way street and when your regulation says to give a mortgage to anyone who can figure out where to sign the papers, that's a bad regulation. Politicians can be just as greedy within their own jobs as any Wall Street banker, having no problems trading taxpayer backed mortgages for votes.

This entire mortgage thing unraveled in late 2007. The Democrats took complete power in both houses in 2008. The political party that controls the house also controls special investigations and special prosecutors and what will be investigated. There has been no call from the Democratic Congress for a complete, detailed investigation about how and why 2 government sponsored corporations, Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae, were able to bring the world to it's financial knees. Not a peep. If it were a Republican created problem, subpoenas would be flying around like a blizzard. But that's not the case. Look at all the hoopla, time and expense that went into finding out what Bill Clinton, a staffer, and a cigar did in their spare time and we won't even appoint a committee to look into how Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae brought the world down.

While everybody is having fun bashing the banks for buying and selling worthless derivative packages, do try and keep in mind that it was government regulation and policy that created the worthless product within those packages.

[MrJan]

But fortunately it'll be a long time (if ever) before Labour are at the helm to wreck things again.

Don't you believe it, people are already realising that Dave and his lapdog are a couple of lying cnuts like the rest of them. Cameron very nearly ballsed up a shoe in election for the Tories so it'll be interesting to see how he gets on in the next one.

[Daniel]

Well the lib Dem voters will desert them in droves which will leave labour in a good position.....

[Mark]

Assuming that the LibDem voters go to Labour.
I think LibDem voters will be in two groups, those who basically support Labour and wanted to protest against the government but couldn't bring themselves to vote Tory - they'll go back to Labour.

Those who quite like the Tories but remember the 1990's so voted LibDem as the best alternative, they may decided to cut out the middle man and vote Conservative next time out.

The core Liberal Democrat vote will be so dissolutioned they'll stay at home and won't vote!

[Mark]

Assuming that the LibDem voters go to Labour.
I think LibDem voters will be in two groups, those who basically support Labour and wanted to protest against the government but couldn't bring themselves to vote Tory - they'll go back to Labour.

Those who quite like the Tories but remember the 1990's so voted LibDem as the best alternative, they may decided to cut out the middle man and vote Conservative next time out.

The core Liberal Democrat vote will be so dissolutioned they'll stay at home and won't vote!

[Bolton Midnight]

Don't you believe it, people are already realising that Dave and his lapdog are a couple of lying cnuts like the rest of them. Cameron very nearly ballsed up a shoe in election for the Tories so it'll be interesting to see how he gets on in the next one.

Have you heard about the forthcoming boundary changes - no thought not.

What has DC lied about? he said there needed to be cut backs and there will be. Granted some things have had to be watered down to appease the Lib Dems but they are doing a good job.

[Mark]

Wow you expected a reply in time it took you to type ' - '.

[Bolton Midnight]

Wow you expected a reply in time it took you to type ' - '.

Nope

His earlier post showed he hadn't much idea about what is in the pipeline. Anyone that thinks Labour stand a cat in hell's chance without the biased boundaries is clearly seriously out of touch with reality.

[Daniel]

Nope

His earlier post showed he hadn't much idea about what is in the pipeline. Anyone that thinks Labour stand a cat in hell's chance without the biased boundaries is clearly seriously out of touch with reality.

So you must think Labour is a shoe in?

[Bolton Midnight]

No I KNOW they are finished for a very long time.

You will too, eventually.

[BDunnell]

No I KNOW they are finished for a very long time.

You will too, eventually.

Having studied and worked in politics, unlike you, I presume, I can safely say that all your contributions to this thread are juvenile rubbish and that the idea of anyone taking any notice of your political opinions is laughable.

[BDunnell]

The core Liberal Democrat vote will be so dissolutioned they'll stay at home and won't vote!

Because, sadly, there is nowhere for us to go. The Lib Dems have been labouring (no pun intended) under the misapprehension that the application of terms like 'fair' and 'progressive' to any policy automatically makes them so, and that this will satisfy the party's core supporters. Some will undoubtedly be satisfied, namely those Lib Dem hardliners who would never hear a word said against the party even if it proposed the slaughter of the first-born. But those of us who became supporters because the we saw the party as being more left-wing than New Labour, but who do not count ourselves as Marxists or socialists, have been left out in the cold. The fact that many people undertook this transition is something the leadership now seems acutely embarrassed of, to the extent that it appears unconcerned about alienating this sizeable constituency.

[MrJan]

Anyone that thinks Labour stand a cat in hell's chance without the biased boundaries is clearly seriously out of touch with reality.

:D The fact that the Tories didn't win with a landslide is very telling. People were so pissed off with labour and whatshischops that it should have been an embarassing majority. As it was Dave had to go running to his yellow friends and make an agreement. That alone speaks volumes.

Not overly aware of the boundary changes, I know that we were set to be included with mid-Devon but succesfully campaigned so that it stays part of Exeter (which makes sense, what with the place where I live being in Exeter). TBH not sure how much of an effect it'll have, time will tell.

[Bolton Midnight]

:D The fact that the Tories didn't win with a landslide is very telling. People were so pissed off with labour and whatshischops that it should have been an embarassing majority. As it was Dave had to go running to his yellow friends and make an agreement. That alone speaks volumes.

Not overly aware of the boundary changes, I know that we were set to be included with mid-Devon but succesfully campaigned so that it stays part of Exeter (which makes sense, what with the place where I live being in Exeter). TBH not sure how much of an effect it'll have, time will tell.

It will have a huge bearing on things, BDunnell should know that with all his alleged knowledge, the fact he doesn't seem to speaks volumes.

The lack of a landslide shows how askew the boundaries are, places with lots of dole wallers and public sector non jobs are of course Labour strongholds, but reduce the number of seats by 100 and it would have been a different picture. Without the Scots we'd have had a Tory government in 2005 that is how askew things are. England has wanted a Tory government for a long time.

Am certainly not a DC fan, I voted for DD. But he was the best of the 3 leaders easily (not that that says a lot; Brown was easily the worst Exchequer and PM the country has ever had).

[Daniel]

The lack of a landslide shows how askew the boundaries are, places with lots of dole wallers and public sector non jobs are of course Labour strongholds, but reduce the number of seats by 100 and it would have been a different picture. Without the Scots we'd have had a Tory government in 2005 that is how askew things are. England has wanted a Tory government for a long time.

Are you aware of the fact that the elections were for a UK govt and not an English one?

[Bolton Midnight]

Are you aware of the fact that the elections were for a UK govt and not an English one?

Aye, more's the pity.

Dump the rest and we'd be well in the money. Let them fund their own Benefits payments.

60 Labour English seats to go first, then some more, then hopefully dump all the Scottish ones next.

[Rollo]

If you want to cut Scotland loose, then they'd also take the North Sea Oil and Gas fields with them. To some degree that was one of the causes of a new wave of Scottish nationalism in the late 60's. If in fact you include those revenues then Scotland is in the black by about £10bn.
There is also the 1 in 3 chance that the PC you're using (if you have a PC) was built in Scotland.

If it could be stirred there is probably a latent desire for Scotland to be rid of the festering sore of Westminster. Scotland would be better off because of it as well.

[Daniel]

If you want to cut Scotland loose, then they'd also take the North Sea Oil and Gas fields with them. To some degree that was one of the causes of a new wave of Scottish nationalism in the late 60's. If in fact you include those revenues then Scotland is in the black by about £10bn.
There is also the 1 in 3 chance that the PC you're using (if you have a PC) was built in Scotland.

If it could be stirred there is probably a latent desire for Scotland to be rid of the festering sore of Westminster. Scotland would be better off because of it as well.
and if they want to get rid of Wales there'll be no Welsh lamb to eat :p

[Bolton Midnight]

Good old New Zealand

Rollo, I assume you were posting for comic effect rather than actual accuracy?

[Rollo]

Apart from London and the South East of England, Scotland has a higher GDP per capita than all the other regions of the UK and that's without North Sea oil revenues.

Scoff if you will, but that is the truth.

[Mark]

In general I'm in favour of Scottish independance but it would doom England to permanent Tory government.
I think the solution for me would be to move to Scotland :D

[ArrowsFA1]

The lack of a landslide shows how askew the boundaries are, places with lots of dole wallers and public sector non jobs are of course Labour strongholds, but reduce the number of seats by 100 and it would have been a different picture. Without the Scots we'd have had a Tory government in 2005 that is how askew things are. England has wanted a Tory government for a long time.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/5/5/1273058695587/toryvote-001.jpg


The long-term trend of the Tory vote is shown in the graph. It demonstrates that while naturally there are short-term oscillations from election to election, which help produce Tory victories or defeats, the steady downward trend of Tory support is entirely clear. Typically the Conservative vote, each time the party won a general election, was lower than at the one it won previously, and each time it lost its vote fell to a lower level than the previous defeat.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/may/05/conservative-victory-long-decline

[wedge]

It continues to amaze me that for a motorsport forum this forum has a proportion of Guardian readers than Clarkson acolytes

[Hondo]

It continues to amaze me that for a motorsport forum this forum has a proportion of Guardian readers than Clarkson acolytes

What amazes me is the number of Guardian readers, Labs, and Lib Dems that don't scream for a 90% tax on the rich drivers that don't really "work" for a living anyway. Meanwhile, you've got your exploited labour force working long hours in the shadows building and repairing the vehicle without which, there would be no star driver. If a mechanic or technician screws something up, he may lose his job but a driver can wreck 6 cars and still make performance bonuses. Yessir, those F1 mechanics ought to unionize and start getting their fair share of the pie. Couldn't have the show without them.

lol

[BDunnell]

It continues to amaze me that for a motorsport forum this forum has a proportion of Guardian readers than Clarkson acolytes

Thankfully, not everyone with a common interest thinks the same way. As an aviation enthusiast, I deeply dislike the way in which I am expected to think that all airport expansion is necessary, the expansion of air travel should continue unfettered and that any use of aircraft in a military action is automatically acceptable.

[Bolton Midnight]

Apart from London and the South East of England, Scotland has a higher GDP per capita than all the other regions of the UK and that's without North Sea oil revenues.

Scoff if you will, but that is the truth.

Last time I checked The SE and London are in England

About 50% of Scotland are paid for by the English taxpayers be they on the dole or carrying out non jobs within the Public Sector.


In general I'm in favour of Scottish independance but it would doom England to permanent Tory government.
I think the solution for me would be to move to Scotland :D

Sounds great. Let England have the government it actually wants and anyone who doesn't like it is free to leave.

[Bolton Midnight]

It continues to amaze me that for a motorsport forum this forum has a proportion of Guardian readers than Clarkson acolytes

Least it proves that Labour's bribes worked, shame these lefties are soon going to find themselves unemployed and totally unable to find work within the private sector on account of being utterly incompetent.

Not to mention that these Guardian readers are non too bright as if the Left had their way motor sport would be a thing of the past. Red Ed wants a 50% reduction in emissions he is that clueless. Just as well he'll be thrown out within 2 years.

[BDunnell]

Not to mention that these Guardian readers are non too bright as if the Left had their way motor sport would be a thing of the past. Red Ed wants a 50% reduction in emissions he is that clueless. Just as well he'll be thrown out within 2 years.

It's 'none too bright', not 'non too bright'.

I must say I've never read anything in any of your posts to mark you out as a mighty right-wing intellect.

[Bolton Midnight]

If in doubt spell check - thank your for your surrender

wear you cap with pride

[donKey jote]

sumbuddy keep's tipping with his hoofs :laugh:

[ArrowsFA1]

Least it proves that Labour's bribes worked, shame these lefties are soon going to find themselves unemployed and totally unable to find work within the private sector on account of being utterly incompetent.

Not to mention that these Guardian readers are non too bright as if the Left had their way motor sport would be a thing of the past. Red Ed wants a 50% reduction in emissions he is that clueless. Just as well he'll be thrown out within 2 years.
Yes, yes, yes but how about addressing this:
..the steady downward trend of Tory support is entirely clear. Typically the Conservative vote, each time the party won a general election, was lower than at the one it won previously, and each time it lost its vote fell to a lower level than the previous defeat.
You said earlier that:
England has wanted a Tory government for a long time
which appears to be a claim made without foundation given that the Conservative vote is in decline.

[MrMetro]

yikes, this thread is still going on. Can't people just chill out about politics?

[Bolton Midnight]

Yes, yes, yes but how about addressing this:
You said earlier that:
which appears to be a claim made without foundation given that the Conservative vote is in decline.

Have you the same figures for the Labour vote? Aren't less folk voting period regardless of party?

If you removed the Scottish (doleys and public sector types) we'd have a Tory government, last election and the one before that.

Labour's boundary changes mean that even if the Tories get more votes they don't get more seats - this will soon change thankfully to a fairer system where each seat will contain roughly equal number of voters.

[Retro Formula 1]

Now then, now then. I'm learning.

Instead of starting from the beginning are reading umpteen pages of bollox, I just read the last half dozen posts and concluded this wasn't a reasoned debate but the usual pissing contest.

If it changes anytime soon please let me know. I'll hold my breath... 1... 2... 3... 4... 5... 97765937... 97765938... 97765939

[BDunnell]

yikes, this thread is still going on. Can't people just chill out about politics?

If one poster realised that his (I assume it's a he) contributions are nonsensical and worthless, despite the fact that around him are various individuals who are actually intelligent and knowledgeable, it would have been interesting and worthwhile. As it is, we have here the sort of person who probably thinks he could wander into a hospital and perform brain surgery because he once read an article on the topic.

[Rollo]

It continues to amaze me that for a motorsport forum this forum has a proportion of Guardian readers than Clarkson acolytes

If Clarkson was a sports commentator, then he would be the "colour" commentator rather than the "play-by-play" guy.
Jeremy Clarkson by his own admission doesn't know a lot about how the machinery works; nor does he really need to. He is a communicator of feeling rather than technical data. I mean if you have someone who refers to "horsepowers" and "torques", it's hardly a technical piece.

The other thing of note is that Clarkson amongst other things writes for the Times which is a News Corp. publication but also hosts a TV program on the BBC.
In principle they are on opposite sides of the political spectrum; Clarkson himself is able to straddle the line because he doesn't necessarily write either in the political or business sections. He is essentially an entertainer for want of a better word.

If people read the Guardian, then they're doing so because of the overall sway and content of the newspaper rather than a single columnist.

[janvanvurpa]

Least it proves that Labour's bribes worked, shame these lefties are soon going to find themselves unemployed and totally unable to find work within the private sector on account of being utterly incompetent.

Not to mention that these Guardian readers are non too bright as if the Left had their way motor sport would be a thing of the past.

Let's see, so far, it seems everybody in your country are none too bright.
Except you, naturally..

Well since you're so bright, you must have an attention span far in excess of average, so bear with me...

Since I don't really know what British Lefties are up to these days (haven't lived there since 1980) can you clarify why British Lefties would want motorsport to be a thing of the past?

I mean I lived and worked in a Socialist country for years, Sweden, surrounded on all sides by other Socialsit countries, and I raced every weekend when there was dirt--and not deep snow. I also raced at least 5 to 7 times a month in Socialist France---and got paid about half a working mans gross monthly salary per event by those dirty Froggie bastids, filthy Reds damn near every one of them.

Later when I got old and needed to do something a little less strenuous I began doing Stage rally---you may have heard of it, it involved driving cars down narrow roads sideways in the dark and dying every few minutes,---- I chance to look at the numbers of Licence holders back where I had lived in Sweden and saw that those rotten Marxists and Trotskists had about 16,000 rally licence holders in a country of just (then) 8.5 million, the Stalinist Finns under the shadow of the Soviet Union had around 10,000 licence holders for (then) 4.5 million, and I seem top remember something around 5000 for "The UK" with a population base of 55 million (yes yes I understand that includes a fair number of those druggies and alky dole types which is all of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland but still even if you had your wish and they were eleiminated still its a big population relative to those frozen wasteland across the North Sea,

So, if those places were veritable Workers Paradises of Socialist and Communist Command economy, and no freedom, how is it that there is so much motorsport of all sorts, especially the hardest sports moto-cross and gravel rally?

Note: I happened to run into a Russian or three in my rally events and I asked about rally in their NW---since I'm from the US NW and traditionally we had very good turnout from the least dense population (geographically).
I asked if the had rally, and he said yep, back in the Good Ol Days of Soviet times in the NW Region--most based around Leningrad---events would draw in summer between 300-340 cars "Oh but 90% were Ladas of course---but those are Fiats, so a lot of guys found ways to get Fiat parts and short final drive to make them more fun"

Now the old Soviet regime really was a bunch of thuggish Authoritarian Bureaucrats, not really Socialist or lefties, but I'm sure from reading only 5-6 of your posts that they're leftie enough for you, so:

Explain why filthy commies allowed rallys and let 300-320 maniacs terrorize the countryside going sideways and crashing into trees?

Just a note to beloved readers, it IS a puzzle why supposed so called "Right" wing places all seem to have much lower participation numbers in all forms of motorsport....

I think...just trying to tie this to British politics a bit---that if we looked at just the 2 sports I have done, the numbers active in the times when the country was most "Left"--late 50s to late 70s was the period of highest British motorsports activity...

Why's that?

[Dave B]

Or it could just be that he made a stupid statement with nothing to back it up. Again...

[Bezza]

Got to say I am impressed with the decisions made so far by the new government since May.

I think its clear the Lib Dems have no real sway over the Conservatives, and this is very fortunate really as some of their plans were unrealistic.

So far we have seen necessary spending cuts, a planned cut on troops, a tie up with the French, and most tellingly a cut and long term plan of the reduction of the welfare system – the sooner we get spongers off benefits, the better. This was a situation created gradually by the last Labour government, and part of the reason why we are in so much debt now.

Paying more VAT and other taxes is necessary to try and get the county back on its feet again. We may not like it, but it is a product of Labour’s over-exuberance when it comes to handing out benefits.

In Cameron we have a good PM too, and he is not messing about. Tough decisions need to be taken and that is what we are saying. Great to see him in Zurich too, he fits in well with the other guys trying to get the World Cup and he does genuinely care about it. I can’t see Gordon Brown (a Scot and a bit of an idiot) being anywhere near as effective.

[Bezza]

I must add too that it is slightly harsh on the Lib Dems in some way.

What were our options at the end of the Labour regime in May?

1) Coalition with Tory and LibDem
2) Minority coalition with Labour and LibDem, with Labour having a mass exodus of votes from 2005)
3) Minority Tory only government
4) Try again!

The voting system is flawed due to what Labour did in the boundaries. So if you look at it that way, it is Labour's fault we have this coalition at all. If the boundaries were fair and realistic, we would have a single Tory government which would be at this time the best possible government to have.

[Dave B]

By "tough decisions" do you mean removing child benefit then reviewing it when - surprise surprise - it turned out to be unpopular?

Or saying they'd hike up tuition fees then looking like they're going to bottle it when - surprise surprise - it turned out to be unpopular?

Or IDS's crackdown on housing benefit which looks like it's going to be watered down now that - surprise surprise - it's proving unpopular?

Or announcing that they're slashing the budget for sport in schools then holding a review when - surprise surprise - it turned out to be unpopular?

They're clueless and directionless, making ideological choices but not having the courage of their convictions when the public call them out on it. If they truly believed these cuts were unavoidable they should have the balls to go through with them, not to keep playing games with peoples' lives for the sake of pursuing a political aim.

No wonder the USA thought Cameron was a "political lightweight" in the leaked cables. He's trying to rush through ill-thought policies but can't stand the thought of them making him unpopular. He's a career politician with a PR background, and it shows.

[BDunnell]

Great to see him in Zurich too, he fits in well with the other guys trying to get the World Cup and he does genuinely care about it. I can’t see Gordon Brown (a Scot and a bit of an idiot) being anywhere near as effective.

Virtually the one thing I found refreshing about Brown was that he never made the desperate attempts to be seen to like football that so many politicians of all parties do. I include Cameron in that. Listening to him talking about football is like listening to Brian Sewell engaging in discourse on Tinchy Stryder.

[BDunnell]

The voting system is flawed due to what Labour did in the boundaries. So if you look at it that way, it is Labour's fault we have this coalition at all. If the boundaries were fair and realistic, we would have a single Tory government which would be at this time the best possible government to have.

So the end result of the coalition has absolutely nothing to do with the way people voted, does it?

[ArrowsFA1]

Have you the same figures for the Labour vote?
No. Perhaps the Labour vote has declined to a similar extent but that's somewhat irrelevant and a deflection by yourself.

The Tory vote is declining and yet you've claimed that "England has wanted a Tory government for a long time". What do you base that claim on?

If you'd claimed that the country wanted a change of government then I'd agree, but the evidence is there to say that the country did not want a Tory government which is why we ended up with a coalition.

[Dave B]

Virtually the one thing I found refreshing about Brown was that he never made the desperate attempts to be seen to like football that so many politicians of all parties do. I include Cameron in that. Listening to him talking about football is like listening to Brian Sewell engaging in discourse on Tinchy Stryder.
Although for the sake of balance I should point out that I found it cringeworthy when Brown expressed his admiration for the Arctic Monkeys. Although to counterbalance that I raise you William Hague's baseball cap and his attempt at portraying his "14 pints" image as "cool".

[BDunnell]

Although for the sake of balance I should point out that I found it cringeworthy when Brown expressed his admiration for the Arctic Monkeys.

Of course, that and his reference to 'the EastEnders' were appalling too.

[Daniel]

Great to see him in Zurich too, he fits in well with the other guys trying to get the World Cup and he does genuinely care about it. I can’t see Gordon Brown (a Scot and a bit of an idiot) being anywhere near as effective.

Huh? He only cares about it because if they had won it, him being there is free publicity. Cameron looks like the sort of person who wouldn't know how to kick a bloody football. It's funny how people are willing to see Brown as a suckup but don't see the even more obvious hoovering of Cameron....

[Bezza]

Huh? He only cares about it because if they had won it, him being there is free publicity. Cameron looks like the sort of person who wouldn't know how to kick a bloody football. It's funny how people are willing to see Brown as a suckup but don't see the even more obvious hoovering of Cameron....

It is quite easy to tell when people are being false and when they are being genuine. Cameron is genuine and his support of the World Cup bid was excellent. Does it matter if he can play football? Should we have Beckham as PM then?

Unfortunately a lot of people are Tory-haters / Labour-lovers who are too stubborn to accept things.

You like labour because without them you wouldn't have sailed into the country so easily.

[Dave B]

You like labour because without them you wouldn't have sailed into the country so easily.
And there it is. The immigration card has been played. :dozey:

[Mark]

I know what Daniel had to go through in order to stay in the UK and it was far from "sailed in".

[Dave B]

By the way, Apple have been recruiting ethnic minorities over here.

Bloody Jobs coming over and taking our Muslims.... :p

[Daniel]

You like labour because without them you wouldn't have sailed into the country so easily.

:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

You clueless fool.

[Daniel]

I can't stop laughing. I really can't Bezza has once again shown just how clueless he is, especially when it comes to knowing what is in someone elses head be it Cameron's or mine.

Do you honestly think that I would support labour purely because of a perceived soft touch on immigrants? So it's not like I care about how the country's run, if there are jobs, if law and order is maintained etc etc etc? :rolleyes:

You really are clueless Bezza, why not go travelling through some countries outside of Europe and ditch this small minded Britishness which seems to cloud your mind?

[Bezza]

I can't stop laughing. I really can't Bezza has once again shown just how clueless he is, especially when it comes to knowing what is in someone elses head be it Cameron's or mine.

Do you honestly think that I would support labour purely because of a perceived soft touch on immigrants? So it's not like I care about how the country's run, if there are jobs, if law and order is maintained etc etc etc? :rolleyes:

You really are clueless Bezza, why not go travelling through some countries outside of Europe and ditch this small minded Britishness which seems to cloud your mind?

Two posts in a row to call me clueless? Desperate for attention again Daniel?

I shouldn't have bothered posting as the anti-Tory venom on here is comical, some people are so set in their ways its untrue. They can never do anything right by you lot, I'm sure you are all hoping for Miliband to get in and then we are truly stuffed and I'll be gone like a shot if that ever happens!

[Daniel]

Two posts in a row to call me clueless? Desperate for attention again Daniel?

I shouldn't have bothered posting as the anti-Tory venom on here is comical, some people are so set in their ways its untrue. They can never do anything right by you lot, I'm sure you are all hoping for Miliband to get in and then we are truly stuffed and I'll be gone like a shot if that ever happens!

Perhaps I was just bloody annoyed.

You just whinge because people don't agree with you, typical.

[Bezza]

Perhaps I was just bloody annoyed.

You just whinge because people don't agree with you, typical.

You didn't sound annoyed to me pal.

And I can't believe you are criticizing me for "whingeing" when people don't agree....Daniel, criticizing somebody for WHINGEING WHEN THEY DON'T AGREE!

Seriously...!

[Mark]

I'd like to raise a spelling objection.

[MrMetro]

I'd like to raise a spelling objection.

And it's not me this time...hopefully ;)

[Daniel]

You didn't sound annoyed to me pal.

And I can't believe you are criticizing me for "whingeing" when people don't agree....Daniel, criticizing somebody for WHINGEING WHEN THEY DON'T AGREE!

Seriously...!

Don't tell me what I'm thinking dickhead.

P.S yes I realise I've sworn but does a person who seems to think that I support a political party based on them supposedly opening the door to types like me deserve any politeness? I think not.

P.P.S If you're so passionate about your country why don't you learn to speak/spell the language?

[donKey jote]

By the way, Apple have been recruiting ethnic minorities over here.

Bloody Jobs coming over and taking our Muslims.... :p
:rotflmao:
classic dave :up: :laugh: :laugh:

[BDunnell]

It is quite easy to tell when people are being false and when they are being genuine. Cameron is genuine and his support of the World Cup bid was excellent. Does it matter if he can play football? Should we have Beckham as PM then?

Unfortunately a lot of people are Tory-haters / Labour-lovers who are too stubborn to accept things.

You like labour because without them you wouldn't have sailed into the country so easily.

While you're on the subject of the lives of other forum members about whom you know nothing, what do you think of those of us who are homosexuals? All been in receipt of state benefit hand-outs and benefited from endless positive discrimination as a result of our sexuality, have we? This viewpoint would seem to be about your level.

[Rollo]

I shouldn't have bothered posting as the anti-Tory venom on here is comical, some people are so set in their ways its untrue. They can never do anything right by you lot,

In the case of the Tories, it's because people have memories and still hold them accountable for selling off a whole host of public assets. I think that there is also an undercurrent of anti-Labour venom but it isn't quite as strong.
In my not-very well paid opinion, both major political parties in my lifetime have proven that they are unfit to run the country, so really isn't a case of choosing the lesser of two evils (which is still an evil).

I think that in general over the past 50 years we have seen a distinct loss of vision from governments around the world. Politicians seem more intent on being administrators rather than leaders.

[Roamy]

While you're on the subject of the lives of other forum members about whom you know nothing, what do you think of those of us who are homosexuals? All been in receipt of state benefit hand-outs and benefited from endless positive discrimination as a result of our sexuality, have we? This viewpoint would seem to be about your level.

Ben DADT

[Bezza]

Don't tell me what I'm thinking dickhead.

P.S yes I realise I've sworn but does a person who seems to think that I support a political party based on them supposedly opening the door to types like me deserve any politeness? I think not.

P.P.S If you're so passionate about your country why don't you learn to speak/spell the language?

You really are a mindless simpleton. I know your views, we've been on here a long time and it is clear where you stand. Sorry about getting a word spelt wrong buddy - but I think I will cope with that. After all, I'm not in the job I am now without being an excellent negotiator and relationship builder, my use and understanding of the English language is excellent.

BDunnell, I don't really understand your point. Nobody was talking about homosexuals, I haven't said anything about positive discrimination either. You've jumped way ahead there. I have nothing against gays or lesbians, each to their own.

All I initially said was I agreed with what the Tories had done, and from that between you, you have decided I am racist, homophobic and probably sexist. Nothing could be further from the truth.

You guys need to take a step back before you get your keyboards out.

[Daniel]

Lol. You're the tool who said I only prefer labour because they let me in easy. If anyone is a mindless simpleton it is you

[BDunnell]

After all, I'm not in the job I am now without being an excellent negotiator and relationship builder, my use and understanding of the English language is excellent.

There is actually a grammatical error in that very sentence. Sorry to be a pedant. I'm also sorry that you seem to have no idea of the fact that your views on immigration are baseless, which is a shame for someone who is obviously not unintelligent.

[Bezza]

Lol. You're the tool who said I only prefer labour because they let me in easy. If anyone is a mindless simpleton it is you

Seriously GROW UP and give it a rest, Daniel.


There is actually a grammatical error in that very sentence. Sorry to be a pedant. I'm also sorry that you seem to have no idea of the fact that your views on immigration are baseless, which is a shame for someone who is obviously not unintelligent.

I disagree with you, but I respect your views Ben and always have done. I am not racist / sexist etc but seem to always lead people to jump straight to that idea. I am not at all. I have my views on immigration and they are that they should be a hell of a lot tougher, for the good of everyone in the country, otherwise the country will suffer. I will ignore the comments on grammar, as I am typing in a hurry and I'm sure you can understand mistakes can happen.

[Daniel]

Your rant gets shown up for the crap it is and you tell me to grow up?

[Bezza]

Your rant gets shown up for the crap it is and you tell me to grow up?

If you can't debate properly, don't bother at all. I am not entertaining you any more. :s nore:

[Daniel]

You were the one who mouthed off about me liking labour because they just let me in. You have no knowledge of my situation so you're the one who needs to debate properly.

[ShiftingGears]

If you can't debate properly, don't bother at all. I am not entertaining you any more. :s nore:


You based your whole argument about a members political leanings on the conditions of his arrival, which you know nothing about.

Which is also assuming that someones political leanings are dictated by how they got into the country and nothing else. You don't know that either.




That does not constitute proper debate.

[BDunnell]

I disagree with you, but I respect your views Ben and always have done. I am not racist / sexist etc but seem to always lead people to jump straight to that idea. I am not at all. I have my views on immigration and they are that they should be a hell of a lot tougher, for the good of everyone in the country, otherwise the country will suffer. I will ignore the comments on grammar, as I am typing in a hurry and I'm sure you can understand mistakes can happen.

Given your views on Daniel being able to come to the UK, what do you think about British people moving abroad? Have a problem with that as well, do you?

[Eki]

Seriously GROW UP and give it a rest, Daniel.



I disagree with you, but I respect your views Ben and always have done. I am not racist / sexist etc but seem to always lead people to jump straight to that idea. I am not at all. I have my views on immigration and they are that they should be a hell of a lot tougher, for the good of everyone in the country, otherwise the country will suffer. I will ignore the comments on grammar, as I am typing in a hurry and I'm sure you can understand mistakes can happen.
Did Australia and the USA suffer from the immigration from England, in your opinion?

[donKey jote]

or India? :p

[Bezza]

Did Australia and the USA suffer from the immigration from England, in your opinion?

This is comical. All I said was Daniel sailed into the country and now I am being asked if immigration causes suffering.

Seriously, mountain out of a molehill comes to mind. Look back over the thread, I never mentioned immigration in any way apart from that one comment and you all then jumped on the bandwagon!

:laugh:

[Daniel]

This is comical. All I did was suggest that Daniel doesn't like the Tories because I stupidly think that he sailed in here based on some policy that the tories are apparently against and Labour are all for even though I've no idea what basis Daniel is in this country on. I also somehow think that Daniel doesn't care about the economy and having an opportunity to work even though Daniel has never and hopes to never claim the dole (or any other form of benefits) either here or in Australia.

Making an epic misjudgement about something I've no idea about springs to mind. Look back over the thread, I've said a number of foolish things which are wrong and I either can't see that or don't want to admit it and sensible people have then jumped on the bandwagon in criticising my idiotic posts in this thread!

:laugh:

I quite agree Bezza :up:

[Bezza]

I quite agree Bezza :up:

http://www.talktofrank.com - they can help you

[BDunnell]

This is comical. All I said was Daniel sailed into the country and now I am being asked if immigration causes suffering.

Seriously, mountain out of a molehill comes to mind. Look back over the thread, I never mentioned immigration in any way apart from that one comment and you all then jumped on the bandwagon!

:laugh:

So the fact that it was 'one comment' — one stupid, incorrect comment, in the eyes of many, apparently — means it is wrong for anyone to respond to it, does it?

[Daniel]

I just live how Craig just isn't man enough to own up to making a silly statement and moving on so he has to jibber jabber on like a fool and just dig a deeper hole

[Mark]

:laugh:

Bezza! Quit your jibber jabber! If I see you acting like a crazy fool again you'll meet my friend pain! :D

[Bezza]

:laugh:

Bezza! Quit your jibber jabber! If I see you acting like a crazy fool again you'll meet my friend pain! :D

:laugh:

[Daniel]

That's a funny way to admit your mistake and apologise

[Bezza]

That's a funny way to admit your mistake and apologise

You always want the last word don't you.

I disagree with you and others on this thread, but respect that people are entitled to their own opinions, so I am happy to move on and I am not going to discuss this topic further.

That OK with you, m'lord?

[MrMetro]

Can everyone just relax? Granted I filled this thread with a discussion about UKIP, and I admit that was off-topic, but please, everyone just CHILL!

:cool:

[Daniel]

Bezza, this is not about agreeing or not. You said that I only support labour because you stupidly think they let me in easily. You're an ignorant loudmouth who likes to make blanket statements on things you have no knowledge on. You don't deserve any respect from anyone for anything.