RBR Scenario

[truefan72]

so if in the closing laps Vettel is leading and Webber 2nd and Alonso 3rd, should Vettel move over to let Webber take the title?

[steveaki13]

I think Red Bull would want him too.
If Vettel is ahead and barring a major turn of fortune can't win it, Red Bull must look to secure a World Title for a driver.

The chance to win a double world Championship (Driver & Team) do not come within reach many times or very often, surely they must do so.

As for Vettel himself. He seems very close to the team and for his future with the team and for the teams sake he must move over.

It may not happen, but for me if Vettel can't win it (as Red Bull ideally want) then for the whole team Webber must clinch it.

[CNR]

if alonso was to dnf or finish 5th
and it was a redbull 1 2

you would have vettle on 256 points
and have mark on 256 points
vettle would take it on wins

redbull may take a gamble and tell them to go fast hoping that alonso's engine expires

[BDunnell]

Those are pretty much the only circumstances under which, in my eyes, it would be right and proper for the team to order Vettel to move over, favouritism notwithstanding.

[AndyL]

if alonso was to dnf or finish 5th
and it was a redbull 1 2

you would have vettle on 256 points
and have mark on 256 points
vettle would take it on wins

redbull may take a gamble and tell them to go fast hoping that alonso's engine expires

If Alonso finishes 5th, then he'll also have 256 points... and Vettel takes it by having one more 4th place than to Alonso :)

[Ranger]

so if in the closing laps Vettel is leading and Webber 2nd and Alonso 3rd, should Vettel move over to let Webber take the title?

Yes. But it won't happen.

Red Bull appear far too keen to lose morally than favour one driver to win... which makes the Silverstone episode all the more dubious!

[Valve Bounce]

so if in the closing laps Vettel is leading and Webber 2nd and Alonso 3rd, should Vettel move over to let Webber take the title?

He probably will, expecting Mark to return the favor next year if the occasion arises. That is my pragmatic forecast. And this will ensure better harmony in hte team next year as Vettel marches to his WDC.

[Valve Bounce]

if alonso was to dnf or finish 5th
and it was a redbull 1 2

you would have vettle on 256 points
and have mark on 256 points
vettle would take it on wins

redbull may take a gamble and tell them to go fast hoping that alonso's engine expires

..........or Alonso can take it a little easy and just finish third. I mean how often does a team tell their drivers to go for broke, and hope their opposition's engine blows up? Every race, I suppose. Or they could hire a hit man and take Alonso out at one of the corners by shining a laser light into his eyes. Or shoot his tyres out with a BB gun. Or hit him in his visor with a potato gun, or shoot oil onto his tyres with a water pistol poaded with peanut oil, or ......................

Man! the opportunities are endless.

[ShiftingGears]

If Alonso runs incident free and either Red Bull DNF's or has major issues he will have won the WDC.

If Vettel drops down that would likely put Alonso in the top 2 - enough to guarantee the championship.

If Webber drops down then Vettel can't do anything about Alonso besides hope he has a failure.

An interesting situation would be where it's Webber-Alonso-Vettel in the race. Webber would have to try to back Alonso into Vettel to give himself a shot at the WDC.

[mstillhere]

Those are pretty much the only circumstances under which, in my eyes, it would be right and proper for the team to order Vettel to move over, favouritism notwithstanding.

If Vettel let's Mark get by and Alonso is right on Mark's ass, how is Vettel going to make sure that only Mark gets by but not Alonso?

[gloomyDAY]

Those are pretty much the only circumstances under which, in my eyes, it would be right and proper for the team to order Vettel to move over, favouritism notwithstanding.I don't share the same opinion. Winning matters in F1. Someone is the pilot and then you need a rear-gunner. A team doesn't need a blue falcon onboard, but that's exactly what's been happening to Webber and not by Vettel (I'm referring to RBR management).

Mark Webber needs to leave Red Bull or else 2011 will be worse.

[Valve Bounce]

If Vettel let's Mark get by and Alonso is right on Mark's ass, how is Vettel going to make sure that only Mark gets by but not Alonso?

We'll cross those chickens when you come to that bridge.

[gloomyDAY]

If Vettel let's Mark get by and Alonso is right on Mark's ass, how is Vettel going to make sure that only Mark gets by but not Alonso?Vettel better turn that steering wheel into Alonso's car!

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/88061

^^^ Horner is lying. There is no way in hell they aren't having closed-door conversations.

[grantb4]

Because Mark is in front points wise, they will let them race. If it was the other way around they would give Vettel Marks front wing and tell Mark to race without one.

[Valve Bounce]

I suspect that if Alonso blew up or crashed at the start, then Horner will let then race for it - Winner Takes it All.

[Big Ben]

After so many threw their toys after Germany I wonder what will everyone say if Vettel dominates Webber once more the entire weekend, gets the pole (screams like a honry gilr) then leads the entire race waiting for Alonso to blow up and the miracle doesn't happen and Vettel let's Webber through on the final straight? I know all champions are deserving champions but I for one would be pretty emberrased to show my face after that kind of race.

[fandango]

What would be funny would be if it was Vettel-Webber-Alonso, and Vettel moves over to let Webber through, and THEN Alonso's engine blew.

It's a distinct, if unlikely, possibility. If I were Vettel I would include this scenario in any pre-race agreement with Webber, to make him move over and return the place. I wonder would Webber do it, and I wonder how the FIA would see it...

[mstillhere]

Vettel better turn that steering wheel into Alonso's car!

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/88061

^^^ Horner is lying. There is no way in hell they aren't having closed-door conversations.

well in that case LH "miracle" might really become true. All of them 3 crashing into each other gifting LH of the title :)

[Big Ben]

Germany being the opperative word in your post.
I think if Vettel lets Webber by I doubt there will be much complaining, well not from me at least. Its the last race and its been done in recent years anyway. I hate team orders but in the last round of the World Championship, theres alot at stake.

I'm not really sure what an opperative word is but I think you got it wrong. This is not about rules, fair play or revenge. I'm just saying that would be somewhat lame to see Vettel beating Webber race after race right into the last laps of the final race and then give up the win to his hopeless team mate... It's like Vettel and RBR are doing their best to prove who the right winner should be and let Webber win only if they have no other choice. I'd rather have Webber win it between the two and I suspect RBR favoring Vettel with something more than the warmth of thier hearts as the Australian kindly put it.

But disregarding that and preteding we live in absolute ignorance... how was it worse for FM do give up his place he only got by chance in Germany after being slower the whole year and being all but out of the title fight than having a driver giving a win as a big as title to a team mate that didn't manage to win it on his own having been defeated in almost every race in the final part of the season? ... All these assuming we actually believe all the BS horner throws at us constantly... that RBR is treating his drivers equally and stuff... I thing the very fact that they constantly refused to focus on the 'other' driver no matter what the yelling girl did on track is a sign of who they favor

[Hondo]

Ultimately and if the situation warrants it, I believe Vettle will move over for Webber on his own, without any prompting from the team. That's the smart move. Otherwise there will be a deep, unhealable rift between the two next season. If he moves over, he can probably expect a grateful tailgunner next year and, at some point, a welcome return of favor.

[truefan72]

What would be funny would be if it was Vettel-Webber-Alonso, and Vettel moves over to let Webber through, and THEN Alonso's engine blew.

It's a distinct, if unlikely, possibility. If I were Vettel I would include this scenario in any pre-race agreement with Webber, to make him move over and return the place. I wonder would Webber do it, and I wonder how the FIA would see it...

wow, that would be some chaos

honestly I don't know what would unfold!

[ioan]

Those are pretty much the only circumstances under which, in my eyes, it would be right and proper for the team to order Vettel to move over, favouritism notwithstanding.

I hope you meant to say post that they should ask him to move over, not to order him to do it, as we are talking about grown up men here.

[ioan]

He probably will, expecting Mark to return the favor next year if the occasion arises. That is my pragmatic forecast. And this will ensure better harmony in hte team next year as Vettel marches to his WDC.

Vettel will be left with the decision to it or not if the situation is such that he can't be WDC but Webber could still make it, and he will most probably do it because this would only advantage him within and outside of the team and make him the moral victor of the season.

Though I wonder how will Webber apologize for all the crap he spouted this season if Vettel gifts him the title?! He'll be happy for the title however he will have to swallow his Oz pride and thank Vettel and the team.

[ioan]

..........or Alonso can take it a little easy and just finish third. I mean how often does a team tell their drivers to go for broke, and hope their opposition's engine blows up? Every race, I suppose. Or they could hire a hit man and take Alonso out at one of the corners by shining a laser light into his eyes. Or shoot his tyres out with a BB gun. Or hit him in his visor with a potato gun, or shoot oil onto his tyres with a water pistol poaded with peanut oil, or ......................

Man! the opportunities are endless.

:rotflmao: :up:

[ioan]

Because Mark is in front points wise, they will let them race. If it was the other way around they would give Vettel Marks front wing and tell Mark to race without one.

BS! :down:

[ioan]

After so many threw their toys after Germany I wonder what will everyone say if Vettel dominates Webber once more the entire weekend, gets the pole (screams like a honry gilr) ...

Looks to me that you get a bit over excited when posting about Vettel and girls! :p :
Just joking! :)

[ioan]

What would be funny would be if it was Vettel-Webber-Alonso, and Vettel moves over to let Webber through, and THEN Alonso's engine blew.

It's a distinct, if unlikely, possibility. If I were Vettel I would include this scenario in any pre-race agreement with Webber, to make him move over and return the place. I wonder would Webber do it, and I wonder how the FIA would see it...

This means that if needed Vettel will move over only on the final meters of the race.

[ioan]

I doubt he'll apologise if in fact he needs to.

That would be rather unsporting.

[TMorel]

I'd have thought the nightmare scenario for RBR is Webber shoots off into the lead, with Vettel second and Alonso third then during the final pitstop Seb gets a stuck wheelnut or caught speeding/cuts the white line and needs a drivethru etc and so drops behind Alonso.

There's not a chance in hell that the people here would believe it. Heck, Fernando has twice pressured Lewis into a mistake but should he do the same to Seb then it'd dwarf the conspiracy calls of Boss's last corner pass on Glock.

[CNR]

http://www.bigpondsport.com/vettel-may-help-webber-for-championship/tabid/91/newsid/63093/default.aspx


'Of course if we find ourselves in a situation where, on the last lap, the team and one of our drivers can win the world championship, the drivers will do whatever's necessary to ensure as a team we achieve the best result.'

[ioan]

I suppose but if Vettel takes a similar stance and doesn't apologise either, it makes no difference at the end of the day.

Did I miss Vettel spouting crap at his team the whole season?! Not sure what you want Vettel to apologize for? For the broken engines and uprights?

[donKey jote]

for being German?

[ioan]

for being German?

Good reason that is! ;)

[steveaki13]

Sebastians worst nightmare scenario :p

Vettel first into the last corner Webber right behind and Alonso 3rd.

Vettel reluctantly moves over and Webber wins the title and Vettel does the team thing.

1 hour later Alonso's car found to be under weight and is disqualified.

How sick would Vettel feel. :laugh:

[ioan]

Sebastians worst nightmare scenario :p

Vettel first into the last corner Webber right behind and Alonso 3rd.

Vettel reluctantly moves over and Webber wins the title and Vettel does the team thing.

1 hour later Alonso's car found to be under weight and is disqualified.

How sick would Vettel feel. :laugh:

Alonso and Ferrari wouldn't risk a DQ for a 3rd place. ;)

[Valve Bounce]

Sebastians worst nightmare scenario :p

Vettel first into the last corner Webber right behind and Alonso 3rd.

Vettel reluctantly moves over and Webber wins the title and Vettel does the team thing.

1 hour later Alonso's car found to be under weight and is disqualified.

How sick would Vettel feel. :laugh:

I like this - keep going; we must work Kevin 007 into the plot somehow. :p :

[ShiftingGears]

Did I miss Vettel spouting crap at his team the whole season?! Not sure what you want Vettel to apologize for? For the broken engines and uprights?

I believe he was referring to Vettel crashing into his teammate in Turkey.

[fandango]

This means that if needed Vettel will move over only on the final meters of the race.


And I don't think it would be illegal, provided Vettel does it himself, without being directed, asked or ordered to do it. But I think Vettel would be stupid to agree to this without agreeing with Webber that Webber do the same if Alonso goes out.

[AndyL]

But I think Vettel would be stupid to agree to this without agreeing with Webber that Webber do the same if Alonso goes out.

What? Why should Webber gift the title to Vettel?

There'd be a world of difference between Vettel letting Webber past to enable him to beat a member of a rival team, and Webber letting Vettel past just because someone at Red Bull would prefer Vettel to win.

To clarify: if it's Vettel 1st, Webber 2nd and Alonso 3rd, at that point neither Red Bull driver is winning the title. So Vettel loses nothing by allowing Webber past.

If it's Webber 1st, Vettel 2nd and Alonso nowhere, then Webber is winning the title at that point. Why should he hand it to Vettel?

[jens]

It may be quite a weird feeling for Vettel to help Webber to become WDC in such fashion. I mean he has been faster for most of the season, but is behind in standings due to unreliability, also he would finish above Mark in WDC standings if he didn't yield the race win. But by letting Mark ahead he would voluntarily finish the season as the inferior RBR driver and as a non-WDC as opposed to his team-mate. Later who would care about Vettel's help, everyone would remember Webber as the WDC and "better driver" of 2010.

[Tazio]

It may be quite a weird feeling for Vettel to help Webber to become WDC in such fashion. I mean he has been faster for most of the season, but is behind in standings due to unreliability, also he would finish above Mark in WDC standings if he didn't yield the race win. But by letting Mark ahead he would voluntarily finish the season as the inferior RBR driver and as a non-WDC as opposed to his team-mate. Later who would care about Vettel's help, everyone would remember Webber as the WDC and "better driver" of 2010.Good post Jens. As fast as Vettel is he is still not the complete package. Webber leading him is evidence enough. On top of that it appears that he has been given preferential treatment, but there is no proof of that.

I only have to point to his inexplicable collision with his own team mate as an example of his flaws. Also he accused his own team of incompetence when he reported an engine problem at Monza.
He was told to stay out while the team examined telemetry!
To which he ejaculated:
"Seriously guys are you effing with me or what"?
It ended up being a brake malfunction that was attributed to clipping a curb, and it remedied itself.

If it comes to a situation that it is obvious he can only help Mark win the WDC and refuses, that would be idiotic, and I don’t think he is an idiot
That does not mean Mark is a better pilot it just means he won a WDC, or Vettel lost one, or Fred won another one
Take your pick.
I have a feeling this scnario will not play out at all. I don't know who will be WDC, or does anyone else. That is why they run the races :s pinhead:

[Big Ben]

What? Why should Webber gift the title to Vettel?

There'd be a world of difference between Vettel letting Webber past to enable him to beat a member of a rival team, and Webber letting Vettel past just because someone at Red Bull would prefer Vettel to win.

To clarify: if it's Vettel 1st, Webber 2nd and Alonso 3rd, at that point neither Red Bull driver is winning the title. So Vettel loses nothing by allowing Webber past.

If it's Webber 1st, Vettel 2nd and Alonso nowhere, then Webber is winning the title at that point. Why should he hand it to Vettel?


I suspect he is talking about the possibility of Vettel giving up his place and later on Alonso's out for whatever reason

[AndyL]

I suspect he is talking about the possibility of Vettel giving up his place and later on Alonso's out for whatever reason

Ah, I understand. Though there's not much chance of that if Vettel gives up his place in the last few metres of the race.

[Big Ben]

Ah, yes I understand. Though there's not much chance of that if Vettel gives up his place in the last few metres of the race.

and that would put Webber in a very odd position... maybe it's just me but i think it would be better if RBR would give him full support and leave him some dignity when he wins that title... he is ahead of his team mate and has much better chances to win it and deserves it.

[Cooper_S]

and that would put Webber in a very odd position... maybe it's just me but i think it would be better if RBR would give him full support and leave him some dignity when he wins that title... he is ahead of his team mate and has much better chances to win it and deserves it.


Webber would forever be accused of not winning on merit as his team mate may have been behind on points (7) but not out of contention (25 available and a win would make him de facto RBR leading driver with equal points butmore wins)...

[ioan]

I believe he was referring to Vettel crashing into his teammate in Turkey.

It takes 2 to tango (or tangle if you wish ;) ).

[fandango]

What? Why should Webber gift the title to Vettel?

There'd be a world of difference between Vettel letting Webber past to enable him to beat a member of a rival team, and Webber letting Vettel past just because someone at Red Bull would prefer Vettel to win.

To clarify: if it's Vettel 1st, Webber 2nd and Alonso 3rd, at that point neither Red Bull driver is winning the title. So Vettel loses nothing by allowing Webber past.

If it's Webber 1st, Vettel 2nd and Alonso nowhere, then Webber is winning the title at that point. Why should he hand it to Vettel?

Well, Vettel has to choose whether to help Webber or help himself. If Vettel agrees to help Webber, then all Webber has to do is get to second place, assuming the Red Bulls dominate. That's a bonus for Webber. So Vettel could argue that there's no chance of any bonus for him. They both really want to win it, so it's a logical haggle for Vettel to insist that Webber help him in the event Alonso goes out. I think it's fair, considering it's based on something they can't control, ie the reliability of Alonso's Ferrari, and it's a less-likely scenario.

[Cooper_S]

It takes 2 to tango (or tangle if you wish ;) ).

True enough, however just because two drivers have a coming together that does not mean that they are both equally at fault.

[Big Ben]

It takes 2 to tango (or tangle if you wish ;) ).

Let's hope vettel forgets his steps again and I'll be satisfied on Sunday for like 5 minutes

[ioan]

True enough, however just because two drivers have a coming together that does not mean that they are both equally at fault.

You are right, it was mostly Webber's fault.

[ioan]

Let's hope vettel forgets his steps again and I'll be satisfied on Sunday for like 5 minutes

Especially if he will be doing the tango with Alonso! :rotflmao:

[Big Ben]

Especially if he will be doing the tango with Alonso! :rotflmao:

that wouldn't be that bad either... I'll be satisfied for 3 minutes. Everything works as long as Vettel doesn't win it.

[wattoroos]

I think alonso qualifying on the front row is quite a possibility and that would mean that it could be over or on for young and old at the first corner

[Valve Bounce]

I think alonso qualifying on the front row is quite a possibility and that would mean that it could be over or on for young and old at the first corner

OMIGOD!! So who do you think will be the one to take him out? Sutil? Kube Man? Hamilton? Massa? SchM? Who? Who?

[wattoroos]

OMIGOD!! So who do you think will be the one to take him out? Sutil? Kube Man? Hamilton? Massa? SchM? Who? Who?

not what i mean.
i reckon that all the title contenders will be going for it off the line and that it is likely there will be an accident as they fill fight tooth and nail for position and one slip up or brain fade might cost one or two of them the championship

[Valve Bounce]

not what i mean.
i reckon that all the title contenders will be going for it off the line and that it is likely there will be an accident as they fill fight tooth and nail for position and one slip up or brain fade might cost one or two of them the championship

Well, That's what I'm talking about!

[ioan]

that wouldn't be that bad either... I'll be satisfied for 3 minutes. Everything works as long as Vettel doesn't win it.

At least you are easy to satisfy.

[Ari]

BS! :down:

You're right. He'd get the old front wing!

[Ari]

Sebastians worst nightmare scenario :p

Vettel first into the last corner Webber right behind and Alonso 3rd.

Vettel reluctantly moves over and Webber wins the title and Vettel does the team thing.

1 hour later Alonso's car found to be under weight and is disqualified.

How sick would Vettel feel. :laugh:

Oh man! I hadn't thought of that one. Heart-breaking!!!!!

[Ari]

What? Why should Webber gift the title to Vettel?

There'd be a world of difference between Vettel letting Webber past to enable him to beat a member of a rival team, and Webber letting Vettel past just because someone at Red Bull would prefer Vettel to win.

To clarify: if it's Vettel 1st, Webber 2nd and Alonso 3rd, at that point neither Red Bull driver is winning the title. So Vettel loses nothing by allowing Webber past.

If it's Webber 1st, Vettel 2nd and Alonso nowhere, then Webber is winning the title at that point. Why should he hand it to Vettel?

Vettel loses:

a) the chance to be Red Bulls first WDC winner.
b) the chance to beat his team mate. He would finish 2nd and Webber 3rd in the WDC.
c) ego.

[Ari]

You are right, it was mostly Webber's fault.

True. When they turn his engine down so that the #1 team driver can pass he needs to get the hell out of the road! Particularly considering Vettel has nerves of cotton.

[edv]

True. When they turn his engine down so that the #1 team driver can pass he needs to get the hell out of the road! Particularly considering Vettel has nerves of cotton.

I thought that in F1, the telemetry is only one-way....the only way for Webber's engine to be 'turned down' would have to be by Webber himself via the steering wheel, no?

[ioan]

I thought that in F1, the telemetry is only one-way....the only way for Webber's engine to be 'turned down' would have to be by Webber himself via the steering wheel, no?

Yep.

[Cooper_S]

I thought that in F1, the telemetry is only one-way....the only way for Webber's engine to be 'turned down' would have to be by Webber himself via the steering wheel, no?

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