Lapped cars

[N4D13]

I think that today we've seen why the current SC regulations need to be tweaked (yet again) in order to ensure that lapped cars do not hinder other drivers. It was pathetic to see that they wouldn't yield position to the drivers who were lapping them because they were fighting for position themselves - and it's not a big deal if it happens just once, but it was happening all the times at Interlagos. I even remember a lapped car overtaking Rosberg.

I know that the SC regulations have been tweaked frequently, and I remember that the 2007 regulations didn't work, but why couldn't they just allow the drivers in front to overtake lapped cars so that these would move to the back of the pack? That way, we would avoid that what happened today in Interlagos could be repeated.

[UltimateDanGTR]

agreed. if a safety car is put out, and there are lapped cars in between 1st and 2nd, 2nd and 3rd, 3rd and 4th etc then they should be let to go to the back of the field.

[steveaki13]

Probably was a bit of a problem and I think Heidfeld was unlucky to be the only one to get a penalty.

All that said: Its was quite Fun. :laugh:

[Dr. Krogshöj]

Actually, the SC regulations of 2007 would work perfectly today, I mean getting rid of the lapped cars and closing the pit lane immediately after the SC is deployed. The reason the latter rule was scrapped (cars may run out of fuel) is not valid anymore. And I don't even know why they scrapped the "Lapped cars may now overtake" rule. There wasn't any official reason given. On the other hand, what we saw today was entertaining. I'm not sure I'd change.

[steveaki13]

Trouble is with the cars unlapping themselves they used to wait until they caught the snake again. That means another 2 or 3 laps of SC.

[Dave B]

agreed. if a safety car is put out, and there are lapped cars in between 1st and 2nd, 2nd and 3rd, 3rd and 4th etc then they should be let to go to the back of the field.
The trouble with the old rules is the lapped cars would be allowed to blast round to pick up the back of the field, and having cars on track at racing speed kind of negates the point of the SC.

I see nothing wrong with championship contenders, if they're that good, being forced to overtake the odd HRT and Virgin here and there.

[AndyL]

Actually I don't agree with this. Of course we might have had a different result today if the safety car had closed up the top 5 nose-to-tail, but to my mind that's an artificial means of creating close racing. The reason there were backmarkers between Vettel and Webber when the safety car went in, is that they were there before the safety car came out.

[steveaki13]

True the purpose of the SC is not to make the leaders job easier but to slow the cars down to protect the marshalls, thats it.

[fandango]

Actually I don't agree with this. Of course we might have had a different result today if the safety car had closed up the top 5 nose-to-tail, but to my mind that's an artificial means of creating close racing. The reason there were backmarkers between Vettel and Webber when the safety car went in, is that they were there before the safety car came out.

I agree. And it's called the Safety Car, not the SpiceUpTheRace Car.

[Dave B]

True the purpose of the SC is not to make the leaders job easier but to slow the cars down to protect the marshalls, thats it.


I agree. And it's called the Safety Car, not the SpiceUpTheRace Car.
Exactly. Its purpose is to neutralise the race so that the marshals can quickly and safely clear the track. Without the SC, those backmarkers would still be there sooner or later.

[Sonic]

Leave the rules alone please.

[truefan72]

if you are a lap down then you need to move behind those ahead of you.
That is the way I see it. The top cars should have a chance to fight each other not be severely held up by traffic. The only one happy with today's situation was vettel. the 3 drivers behind him suffered immensely because of this stupid rule. Why the FIA can't fix that is beyond incredulity.
To me the race was over at lap 54.

[steveaki13]

if you are a lap down then you need to move behind those ahead of you.
That is the way I see it. The top cars should have a chance to fight each other not be severely held up by traffic. The only one happy with today's situation was vettel. the 3 drivers behind him suffered immensely because of this stupid rule. Why the FIA can't fix that is beyond incredulity.
To me the race was over at lap 54.

Did you switch off at lap 54 and not watch?

Or did you still watch the rest of the race?

If you watched then the Race was Not Over for you otherwise you would have stopped watching.

[truefan72]

The trouble with the old rules is the lapped cars would be allowed to blast round to pick up the back of the field, and having cars on track at racing speed kind of negates the point of the SC.

I see nothing wrong with championship contenders, if they're that good, being forced to overtake the odd HRT and Virgin here and there.

they won't have to blast around, just at a reasonable speed and the SC won't come in until the right grid is formed right? Or they can simply let all the cars go ahead of them that need to get by. simple communication with team and radio will do

[truefan72]

Exactly. Its purpose is to neutralise the race so that the marshals can quickly and safely clear the track. Without the SC, those backmarkers would still be there sooner or later.

yes, but does it give an unfair advantage to the top car, or the 2nd, or 3rd, or 4th? the way I see it Vettle cleared his traffic by being first and/or overtaking them at racing speed with them pretty much moving aside for him. That is a huge difference than a tightly packed bunch not easy to yield position and much much slower to concede the position or even the pace of the overtake maneuver. While at racing speed, Webber Alonso and Hamilton, would have passed those cars in a lap or 2, after the SC it takes them 6-7 laps to clear the traffic and by then the gaps have stretched out too far to have a competitive race.

If the true intention of the SC is to slow down the field then he should just pick up the first car he encounters and all form behind in that order behind him. Then when we go green we would be essentially "unfreezing"the race.

You can't have it both ways IMO. If you pick up the leader then allow the rest to follow behind accordingly, if not then freeze the field As is and go from there.

[truefan72]

Did you switch off at lap 54 and not watch?

Or did you still watch the rest of the race?

If you watched then the Race was Not Over for you otherwise you would have stopped watching.

Did I say anything about not watching or did I use the present tense. I pretty much said that the race was as well decided at lap 54 when it turned out that Vettel ran away while each one of his following competitors got mired in managing around backmarkers.

If a soccer team scores the 3rd goal to the good against a team at the 76th minute and the game ends that way, despite the other teams best efforts, would you not agree that the game was basically decided by that goal at the 76th minute? That's' what I'm saying. Jeez :\

[V12]

If a driver has built up a sufficient lead to have lapped traffic between himself and second place, then those cars should stay where they are, it's only fair. It's bad enough that safety cars cause drivers to lose hard earned gaps to their persuers, to take out any lapped cars would just add insult to injury surely?

In an ideal world we wouldn't have safety cars full stop, but I guess they are a necessarily evil, but the clue is in the name - their purpose is to allow wrecks to be removed safely, not to artifically bunch the cars up, that is just an unavoidable side-effect.

[ArrowsFA1]

In an ideal world we wouldn't have safety cars full stop, but I guess they are a necessarily evil...
With all this talk of "delta times" can't the FIA let the cars circulate without a safety car?

[N4D13]

With all this talk of "delta times" can't the FIA let the cars circulate without a safety car?
The cars need to be packed together in order to let the stewards, cranes or the medical car do their job. If all the drivers drove kept their relative distances (e.g., the guy in 2nd three seconds behind 1st place), the stewards couldn't be on the track at any time.

That said, maybe they could pack the cars together without the safety car, but I don't think that it would do any good.

[schmenke]

With all this talk of "delta times" can't the FIA let the cars circulate without a safety car?

The SC not only slows the drivers, but also routes them through a safe line in the area of the incident.

[call_me_andrew]

This is Formula 1. We don't make races that are pornographically entertaining.

[Duchess]

We don't make races that are pornographically entertaining.

But imagine the viewer ratings if it were!! :laugh:

[Easy Drifter]

But Duchess not in Canada.
You know TSN would black out all the good parts. :eek:
We are so pure and innocent. :D
I mean they and the CRTC won't let us see those raunchy Speed versions of F1.
Heck we already even miss a good part of the BBC coverage for the 1,000th showing of the talking heads on Sportsdesk.

[Sleeper]

The trouble with the old rules is the lapped cars would be allowed to blast round to pick up the back of the field, and having cars on track at racing speed kind of negates the point of the SC.

I see nothing wrong with championship contenders, if they're that good, being forced to overtake the odd HRT and Virgin here and there.

Not true, they have time set for each sector that they cant exceed when the SC is deployed, this just needs to be extended to cover the whole SC period, or send all lapped cars through the pit lane and hold them at the red light till the crocodile has passed. For me all chances of a fight to the finish where ended with the SC and Hulk and Kube seperating the RB's.

[fandango]

If the true intention of the SC is to slow down the field then he should just pick up the first car he encounters and all form behind in that order behind him. Then when we go green we would be essentially "unfreezing"the race.

You can't have it both ways IMO. If you pick up the leader then allow the rest to follow behind accordingly, if not then freeze the field As is and go from there.

This is a good point, worth considering. It would probably cause more confusion at the re-start, though. But that's a commercial concern more than anything.

[AndyL]

This is a good point, worth considering. It would probably cause more confusion at the re-start, though. But that's a commercial concern more than anything.

The problem with not picking up the leader, is that everyone ahead of the safety car effectively gains a free lap on everyone behind it. Picking up the leader guarantees that only cars that have already been lapped will lose a lap to those they were chasing.
I'm pretty sure Truefan was not touting it as a serious suggestion. Imagine what it would be like if the safety car pulled out into a 5 second gap between 1st and 2nd - the leader cruises round to the back of the pack, then laps the entire rest of the field with the help of blue flags and becomes effectively unassailable.

[ArrowsFA1]

...send all lapped cars through the pit lane and hold them at the red light till the crocodile has passed.
Quite like that idea. It prevents the delay needed for lapped cars to catch up to the back of the field.


The cars need to be packed together in order to let the stewards, cranes or the medical car do their job.
Hadn't thought of that :p

Watching the Brazilian GP it was clear that lapped cars did get in the way in a way that wouldn't have happened without the safety car. Bunching everyone up like that is bound to cause an issue which wouldn't exist if lapped cars were at the back of the field after a SC period.

Still, I've always felt that the blue flags make it too easy for the leaders, and punishes backmarkers who, after all, are in a race themselves so I don't know :rolleyes: :crazy: :D

[schmenke]

...send all lapped cars through the pit lane and hold them at the red light till the crocodile has passed. ...

How would that be achieved? Through radio messages? What would happen in the case where a driver has already passed the pit entrance but slower (also lapped) cars behind him haven't. The slower cars would enter the pit lane and be ahead in the queue as the other car makes its way around the circuit to enter the pit lane only to slot into the rear (passing in the pit lane is prohibited).
Also, there would be the usual potential of engines overheating as they wait for the crocodile to go by.
Also, this would likely require the pit lane to be closed for servicing as the queue may impede access to a pit stall. What would happen in the scenario if a vehicle does need to enter the pit stall/garage due to, say, a puncture but there's a queued HRT in the way? Even if the puncture could be repaired, he would have to slot to the rear of the queue, even though he wasn't a lapped car?

IMO the current regulation is the best compromise. The SC picks up the leader while all other cars slot in behind in their positions, including lapped cars as they are. With no refueling, the pit lane should remain closed except for repairs to punctures or other obvious required repairs.

[Whyzars]

SC picks up the lead driver and then communicates to the second car to allow 'x' number of cars to pass. Once that is finished then third car must slow to allow 'x' number of cars passed etc. With radio comms all should be sorted within one lap.

When a car's "turn" comes up, if the car's radio is not able to pick up the comms from the SC that car must allow the field to pass and assume the end of the tail.

A failed SC radio would be seen as a major problem just like any mechanical failure.

[Dave B]

The drivers are asking for the rule to be reconsidered:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/88166

[Marbles]

The drivers are asking for the rule to be reconsidered:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/88166
What's not to like if you're a driver. You unlap yourself if you're a lap down and on the lead lap you get a clear, unfettered shot at the guy in front of you. We should also have a green-white-checkered, a Goody's Lucky Dog recipient or lap cars to the inside!

I guess blue flags are not enough to make a modern day drivers life easier. That tight-rope is going to about ground level pretty soon.