3 laps to go and Red Bull gives the championship from webber to FA

[markabilly]

Never would have thought this.
No wonder webber said what he said.

[F1boat]

Very dull race, I am unpleasantly surprised from the fact that it was a procession. About Red Bull, they hope that the engine of Alonso will fail in Abu Dhabi and unfortunately this is a possibility, but IMO the info that the engine of MW needs cooling... shocking. They prefer Alonso to win than MW.

[Koz]

Ah well.

[Daniel]

I think they made the right decision. Now they have two drivers who can win.

[DexDexter]

I sincerely hope things work out in a way that Massa moving over at Hockenheim doesn't decide the title. That would be a disgrace to F1.

[Dave B]

Red Bull Racing. The clue's in the name. They've made mistakes this year, but there's never been any doubt that their drivers are allowed to race. As it should be. :up:

[UltimateDanGTR]

dull race? I can only think the contrary-there were some fantastic battles in the midfield all race long especially after the safety car.

As for RBR gifting the WDC to Fred-Not yet. I so badly wanted Webber to be let through to win, as I really want Anyone But Alonso to win the WDC, and I am sure the above people agree with that. But you guys, think of it like this;

IF Red Bull get into a 1-2 leading position in Abu Dhabi (which is quite possible) Then we will see Webber let in front if he isn't already. Even RBR wouldn't be so stupid to not do that assuming Alonso was still running and in third. (and him being in third at least is also very possible)

It's a dissapointing result from an Anti-Alonso point of view but it's not over yet ;)

[markabilly]

Unfortunately, as the season has gone on and on, i have become something of a fan of El Chopper, though I still think it was more, much more, his fault and not vettel for that "certain mess" of a few races back between the two.

So today, I found myself rooting for Webber, but when he got stuck behind Hulkenburg and then the team told him, his engine as getting too hot....well.......

So I think any other team would have told Vettel to move over....Indeed, if the standings were reversed, Webber would have been told to move over for Vettel.

So we shall see at the end. But it looks to me that Webber's chances are very slim unless Webber wins and Freddie finishes down.......

AND as to the WCC, well nobody a year from now will be remembering who wins the WCC.

Heck I do not remember who won it last year......

[F1boat]

Heck I do not remember who won it last year......

Brawn Mercedes :)

[markabilly]

well nothing is over until it is over, and I suppose Webber still has a good chance, but with one point seperating them, it would have been who beats who by one place for the finish.

The way it should be.


NOw it depends on "other factors"....but never thought i would find myself rooting for Chopper at the end of the season, but here I is....

[Dr. Krogshöj]

It will be more than enough for Vettel to let Webber pass for the win in the last lap of Abu Dhabi if Alonso is 3rd behind them. And if he's not, Vettel will win the title, and based on his recent pace, deservedly. The right decision was made today, IMHO.

[UltimateDanGTR]

NOw it depends on "other factors"....but never thought i would find myself rooting for Chopper at the end of the season, but here I is....

welcome to the club ;)

[markabilly]

Brawn Mercedes :)
Thanks, I needed that.

Anyway, point is maybe the team whose driver wins the wdc, should be the WCC because, ask yourselves, it is only about the money that anybody cares a hoot about the WCC and even then no one except F1boat whose memory is no doubt excellent for trivial trivia.........remebers

[steveaki13]

The way I see it.

In the last race if Vettel leads Webber from Alonso they will have to ask Vettel to move over.

The trouble with not switching the order is that if Webber leads from Alonso in the last few laps in Abu Dabi the championship is out of their hands.
If they moved Vettel over though, a Webber win would guarantee the championship. So from it being in one drivers hands they now have to rely on a three car swing.

I know no one ideally wants the order being switched around, but Red Bull may have lost their best chance of a title.

I know Red Bull will most likely challenge for many more, but you never know. If they never manage to win a drivers title they may rue this race.

[markabilly]

It will be more than enough for Vettel to let Webber pass for the win in the last lap of Abu Dhabi if Alonso is 3rd behind them. And if he's not, Vettel will win the title, and based on his recent pace, deservedly. The right decision was made today, IMHO.
???

Vettel is too far behind. FA must crash out or finish far far behind for vettel to have a chance to win. And then there is Webber ahead of Vettel.

And all those situations depend on "other factors" and not who does the best job driving.
Chances have been reduced considerably for Webber and Vettel chances are no better than before. Indeed, now worse than before brazil.
RBR ....whatever....Yeah, I can see now why webber said what he said.
And when it comes to sales, well webber makes a better poster boy

[Dr. Krogshöj]

???

Vettel is too far behind. FA must crash out or finish far far behind for vettel to have a chance to win.

And all those situations depend on "other factors" and not who does the best job driving.

Let's say the two Red Bulls are leading, which is the most likely scenario. Based on their form, Vettel is in front, and Webber is second. If Fernando is third, fourth or fifth, Vettel lets Mark pass for the win and the title. If Fernando is further behind, he doesn't let Mark pass and takes the title himself.

[N4D13]

IF Red Bull get into a 1-2 leading position in Abu Dhabi (which is quite possible) Then we will see Webber let in front if he isn't already. Even RBR wouldn't be so stupid to not do that assuming Alonso was still running and in third. (and him being in third at least is also very possible)
I won't bother to write my opinion - you've already done it for me. :D

[markabilly]

If Fernando is further behind, he doesn't let Mark pass and takes the title himself.
Given the Webber attitude, Webber will take Vettel or crash out both of them, before that happens... :vader:

probably why i have taken a liking to him......a breath of fresh air

but once again that all depends on "other factors" than a mano mano fight to the death between Freddie and the chopper

[steveaki13]

Let's say the two Red Bulls are leading, which is the most likely scenario. Based on their form, Vettel is in front, and Webber is second. If Fernando is third, fourth or fifth, Vettel lets Mark pass for the win and the title. If Fernando is further behind, he doesn't let Mark pass and takes the title himself.


Good point.

But it does have to rely on a few more circumstances.

Having said all that if Webber retires early on and Alonso falls to 8th they may have cost Vettel a chance. So really we won't know the best decision until the championship is decided.

[Bagwan]

Never would have thought this.
No wonder webber said what he said.

Billy-boy , get off the Koolaid , and onto the Red Bull , son , so it doesn't shock you so much .
Pi$$y over being "not bad for a number two" and pi$$y like someone dropped a "number two" in his cockpit before he sat down today , when it seems it's ok for a driver to "assume the position" .

Wash that down with another Red Bull , Billy , and watch ol' Salamander Dundee drop the ball as he panics under pressure from the man with a future .
"You getting hot , Mark . Have a drink , mate ."

[Bagwan]

Team orders are illegal , you know .

[steveaki13]

Team orders are illegal , you know .

Be silly to follow the rules when you could cheat and win. :p :

[markabilly]

Team orders are illegal , you know .
so someone said.......ferrari knows that, too and..........

anyway I think I will go to drinking water before I give up kool aid and replace it with red cow piss....

Let see,
25 for first
18 for second
15 for third

webber 8 points behind FA
vettel 15 points behind and 7 behind webber

[markabilly]

maybe this is what stopped red bull......vettel being afriad of jail
http://www.dispatch.co.za/article.aspx?id=446988


:rotflmao:

[donKey jote]

I really want Anyone But Alonso to win the WDC
same here except replace "Alonso" with "Vettel" :p

[DexDexter]

Let's say the two Red Bulls are leading, which is the most likely scenario. Based on their form, Vettel is in front, and Webber is second. If Fernando is third, fourth or fifth, Vettel lets Mark pass for the win and the title. If Fernando is further behind, he doesn't let Mark pass and takes the title himself.

But what if Vettel has another problem, he's had many? A very likely scenario would be Webber winning, Alonso second. Then Alonso would win the championship because doctor Marko and co like a young German driver. An in addition, Alonso would win it because they made Massa mover over for him in the middle of the season. :mad: Unfair for many reasons.

[Sonic]

Much as I want to see Mark lift the title, a part of me stands and applauds Red Bull holding firm to their principles. The only nagging thought in the back of my mind suggests that if it were Webber in arrears to Vettel the team would have no trouble asking (read telling) Mark to pull the hell over.

[steveaki13]

Much as I want to see Mark lift the title, a part of me stands and applauds Red Bull holding firm to their principles. The only nagging thought in the back of my mind suggests that if it were Webber in arrears to Vettel the team would have no trouble asking (read telling) Mark to pull the hell over.

You have that sort of feeling don't you. :(

[Shifter]

Is it possible winning the WDC is nowhere near as important to RBR as winning the WCC is?

[PSfan]

What a fascinating thread we have here. Guess the irony of this being all Webber's fault for his many outbursts about the team favoring Vettel, forcing the team to defend themselves many times claiming the "no favoritism as long as both drivers have a chance" Hard for red bull to have any credibility at all if they had asked the drivers to swap positions.

Then thinking back to Turkey, funny some want the team to support Webber when Webber wasn't willing to support the team in Turkey. Webber should have raced Vettel like he was gonna be sitting next to him after the race enjoying a beer, not like he was his worst enemy. And while on the subject of Turkey, I had to think hard (ok maybe not that hard) the last time I had seen a driver go as far off the racing line to defend his position against a faster car, and thats right, Webber was in the middle of it then to, except he was with Williams at the time, and the other Driver was Fisi in a Renault, and I believe it was in Malaysia? Anyway I had pointed out the stupidity of it when Webber had ran over a piece of debris while pushing Fisi into the dirtiest part of the track, and sure Webber had the moral victory of claiming "he hit me" after Fisi lost it in the marbles, but it looked real good them both walking to the pits though.

Also I'm not exactly sure if Webber is Red Bulls best chance at the WDC, give Vettel the 50 points he lost from the 2 almost certain victories that mechanical failure has cost him and he would already have the title clinched.

[gloomyDAY]

Is it possible winning the WDC is nowhere near as important to RBR as winning the WCC is?Ha! The only thing they're pissed about is that Vettel can't win it, so forget about it. Awful management, just awful. There is no way Alonso can lose it now. No way!

[donKey jote]

there are plenty of ways, unfortunately :p :dozey:

[CNR]

i think i would prefer this to Alonso winning it
Jenson takes out mark
Michael takes out Sebastian
Nico takes out Fernando
Mercedes hand the WDC to Lewis

[Tazio]

i think i would prefer this to Alonso winning it
Jenson takes out mark
Michael takes out Sebastian
Nico takes out Fernando
Mercedes hand the WDC to :s ailor: :kiss: :bigcry:

[Valve Bounce]

Marks complaining to the media leaves me uncomfortable. He only has himself to blame for his current position because of his own mistake in Korea. Now he is bleating that Vettel should help him win the championship.
I just wonder what he would be saying if the positions were reversed.
If he is good enough to qualify on pole and win in Abu Dhabi, then he is worthy of being champion. If not, then don't go begging for his team mate to let him win.
If Mark cannot win the race fairly next week, then I hope Alonso wins the championship - so there!!!!

[CNR]

if alonso 5th and redbull vettle 1 & mark 2 they would all be on 256 points

[wedge]

Team orders are illegal , you know .

Unfortunately there's a precedent set at the 2007 Brazilian GP and Kimi is still officially 2007 WDC.


So today, I found myself rooting for Webber, but when he got stuck behind Hulkenburg and then the team told him, his engine as getting too hot....well.......


Would love to see the telemetry print on that one!

[Hondo]

I'd love to see Mark Webber as WDC this year and, I honestly believe, had their overall standings been reversed, Webber would have been moved over in some way for Vettle today.

I would be more sympathetic to Webber if he hadn't decided to drive off the track in Korea but he did and foolishly added nothing to his points. Instead I offer this advice. If you want to be the champion then be one by taking the pole and/or winning the next race instead of relying on others to move over for you. Good luck Mark.

[Valve Bounce]

I'd love to see Mark Webber as WDC this year and, I honestly believe, had their overall standings been reversed, Webber would have been moved over in some way for Vettle today.

I would be more sympathetic to Webber if he hadn't decided to drive off the track in Korea but he did and foolishly added nothing to his points. Instead I offer this advice. If you want to be the champion then be one by taking the pole and/or winning the next race instead of relying on others to move over for you. Good luck Mark.

THIS! :up:

[Ari]

Is it possible winning the WDC is nowhere near as important to RBR as winning the WCC is?

Haven't RBR already proven that?

As a Webber fan, I'm disgusted with what's happened. As a sports fan, I applaud it.

RBR's best chance at the WDC was to give Webber the win yesterday. Had this happened, then he would only really need a 2nd, or podium even at the last race to guarantee the WDC.

As it is, we now have this up and down tale of 3 drivers finishing positions. It's a little Russian Roulette if you ask me. So and so has to finish here, so and so there. If I put my army men here and yours there......

If Vettel has a DNF and Nando comes second then Webber cannot win the WDC, even if he wins the race.

The thing which p1sses me off is that imo Nando should be 25 points further back for the win in Germany. Finishing orders have always been in motorsport, but teams in the past have some more to protect the credibility of the sport. The Nando/Massa move was in open daylight.

Really, all 3 drivers deserve the win. Nando has been fantastic in the last handful of races. Webber has been consistent all year in a team where the support has gone elsewhere. Vettel has been quickest on Saturday and from the front can drive the car home.

[mstillhere]

Very dull race, I am unpleasantly surprised from the fact that it was a procession. About Red Bull, they hope that the engine of Alonso will fail in Abu Dhabi and unfortunately this is a possibility, but IMO the info that the engine of MW needs cooling... shocking. They prefer Alonso to win than MW.

They better watch after their own engines

[mstillhere]

I think they made the right decision. Now they have two drivers who can win.

So do I :)

[mstillhere]

Red Bull Racing. The clue's in the name. They've made mistakes this year, but there's never been any doubt that their drivers are allowed to race. As it should be. :up:

Again I would definetly ask MW this question> I am sure he is NOT going to agree with you

[mstillhere]

Team orders are illegal , you know .

They know that but this rule ONLY applies to Ferrari and what I find shemful is that they are very happy with their hypocrisy :)

But since I already knew back in Germany what was behind the "outrage" against Ferrari unethical move I never believed for a second the real motiv behind it which was to see Alonso winning.
I am pleased to see now how their true nature is finally showing.

[Wasted Talent]

Team orders = $100,000 fine ......big deal for a F1 team.

Unfortunately RB have now let the outcome of the title out of their own hands. Even if Webber wins he needs Vettel or someone else to stop Alonso getting second - even worse for Vettel to win.

Okay, people are raising Webber's mistake in Korea, but that was only the same as Vettels in Spa, and Alonso's in Spa (exactly the same as Alonso's really).

Admire RB if they truly let both drivers have the same chance, but agree with the feeling that they would have done something different for Vettel if situation was reversed.

Ferrari must be laughing all the way home :( :( :(

WT

[mike.flynn]

if alonso 5th and redbull vettle 1 & mark 2 they would all be on 256 points

What happens then? (I seem to be having a momentary brain lapse!) This would be very interesting!

[DexDexter]

Unfortunately there's a precedent set at the 2007 Brazilian GP and Kimi is still officially 2007 WDC.



Would love to see the telemetry print on that one!

That's just not true. The fact is Räikkönen shadowed Massa until the stops and would have overtaken him even without team orders like he did many times in that situation...He had more fuel and he would have been able to stay on the race track longer than Massa anyway... Let's not twist the truth here.


They know that but this rule ONLY applies to Ferrari and what I find shemful is that they are very happy with their hypocrisy :)

But since I already knew back in Germany what was behind the "outrage" against Ferrari unethical move I never believed for a second the real motiv behind it which was to see Alonso winning.
I am pleased to see now how their true nature is finally showing.

Wake up man, the reason why Ferrari is being bashed here is that they employed team orders in the middle of the season. It's a completely different thing to ask a driver to move over in the last or second to last race than in the middle of the season. It's unethical since this is racing where people are supposed to race each other, at least for the most of the season.

[rjbetty]

Much as I want to see Mark lift the title, a part of me stands and applauds Red Bull holding firm to their principles. The only nagging thought in the back of my mind suggests that if it were Webber in arrears to Vettel the team would have no trouble asking (read telling) Mark to pull the hell over.

I agree. I'm glad someone still thinks principles mean something in 2010. I think it would be ok for team orders at the last race or 2. That seems much more palatable. It's just when there is stealing from the poor to give to the rich in the middle of the season. The word bit was Fernando lying through his teeth, and not a word of thanks to Massa (probably not privately either). Unfortunately, it looks like Fernando will win the title - by less than the seven points he immorally gained. I hope someone with a bit more honour will take it.

At least in Austria 2002 Michael was shocked enough by the reaction and had some sort of humility about it. HE DIDN'T LIE ABOUT IT - but then again the rule wasn't banned at the time (despite Australia '98!)

BTW, are you named after Sonic the Hedghehog by any chance!

[Sonic]

BTW, are you named after Sonic the Hedghehog by any chance!

A nickname picked up when I had platinum blond hair, a la Sonic in his power up mode - so yes :)

[Big Ben]

I sincerely hope things work out in a way that Massa moving over at Hockenheim doesn't decide the title. That would be a disgrace to F1.

While Vettel gifting the slower Webber the win and the title would be something else, right? :rolleyes:

[Hawkmoon]

I sincerely hope things work out in a way that Massa moving over at Hockenheim doesn't decide the title. That would be a disgrace to F1.

And Vettel moving over for Webber would be what, a glorious day for F1?

What ****ing difference does it make when team orders are used? They are just as illegal in the last race as they are in the first. Red Bull will be "cheating" just as much as Ferrari supposedly did if they move Vettel over.

[Hawkmoon]

At least in Austria 2002 Michael was shocked enough by the reaction and had some sort of humility about it. HE DIDN'T LIE ABOUT IT - but then again the rule wasn't banned at the time (despite Australia '98!)

As you say, Schumi didn't have to lie about it, Alonso did because of the stupid rule. You also have no idea what happens between Alonso and Massa in private so to suggest that Alonso didn't thank Massa afterwards is nothing more than very wild speculation.

[ArrowsFA1]

What ****ing difference does it make when team orders are used? They are just as illegal in the last race as they are in the first.
True. Article 39.1 of the sporting regulations says. "Team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited." It doesn't say which race result.

That said, the points situation does present a very interesting conundrum for Red Bull, F1 and we fans (and possibly the FIA).

Both Red Bull drivers can win the WDC and so, ideally, we would like to see the result decided by their own efforts rather than the team altering positions to favour one or the other. However, the team are faced with the possibility of losing the WDC to Alonso if the race ends with a particular result.

What would you do if you were Red Bull? Decide to back one driver before the race? If so, which one? Swap positions (if required) during the race? Let the cards fall as they will by letting the drivers fight their own battle on-track?

As an F1 fan what do you want to see Red Bull do? Favour Webber or Vettel? Leave both drivers to fight for the title with no team orders?

If you were the FIA what would you do if you suspected team orders had been used by Red Bull in Abu Dhabi? Fine them the same as Ferrari were fined at Hockenheim? Take points away from the team/drivers? Throw them out of the championship(s)? Scrap the team orders rule before Abu Dhabi?

[Bagwan]

Wake up man, the reason why Ferrari is being bashed here is that they employed team orders in the middle of the season. It's a completely different thing to ask a driver to move over in the last or second to last race than in the middle of the season. It's unethical since this is racing where people are supposed to race each other, at least for the most of the season.

Team orders are illegal , even in the last race of the season .
Team members should race for thier team in every race of the season .

Maybe the FIA could send those guys they sent to watch Ron for Fernando , back when he rode with McLaren , to see the Red Bull back rooms never have the doors closed , so they don't try any "purple monkey toaster puck" code language in the last race .

The rule says something about influencing the outcome of the championship .
Would a Red Bull swap in the last race not be the very epitome of influence , since the move would directly result in the WDC , potentially ?


Team orders are illegal , which is stupid .
It was a stupid reaction to a move considered stupid by the great unwashed .
But , they are not behind the scenes , to see the drivers and data up close .

You had to be able to see past Rubens's pout , to see that Salo and Irvine couldn't make up for a broken leg .

To guarantee a championship as early as possible is the mandate for every team .
And , every team uses them .

It's just stupid that they have to hide from the public .

I am starting to hope that Salamander Dundee takes the title , after having been gifted at least eight points by his team-mate , so they can try to sort out whether Red Bull needs to pay $100,000.00 for the trophy or not .

[Bagwan]

Here's how Fernando feels :

"Red Bull has spent three months preaching about equality, so now they should continue with the same philosophy,"

[Retro Formula 1]

I think that Webber will be fired up and win from pole. I also think Vettel may make an unfortunate mistake under pressure from Alonso and gift the Spaniard a place, possibly touching wheels in the process to make it look good.

Either way, if Webber wins and Alonso is in the race, I expect the Ferrari to finish second and Vettel 3rd.

Not that I'm cynical or anything ;)

[wedge]

That's just not true. The fact is Räikkönen shadowed Massa until the stops and would have overtaken him even without team orders like he did many times in that situation...He had more fuel and he would have been able to stay on the race track longer than Massa anyway... Let's not twist the truth here.

China 2008 Kimi moving over for Massa

Or how about in 2007/08 Barrichello moaning on the radio that he was quicker than Button and BUtton having to move over? Oooops, nobody cares if its the monkeys at the back.

[Tazio]

Maybe the FIA could send those guys they sent to watch Ron for Fernando , back when he rode with McLaren , to see the Red Bull back rooms never have the doors closed , so they don't try any "purple monkey toaster puck" code language in the last race .

The rule says something about influencing the outcome of the championship .
Would a Red Bull swap in the last race not be the very epitome of influence , since the move would directly result in the WDC


:s ailor:

[motetarip]

I see no moral issues with Vettel allowing Webber past for the WDC after Ferrari's team orders. If you want to beat a 'cheater' then you have to 'cheat' as well (interpret 'cheating' as you will).

I'd especially like it if Horner came on the radio during the last Abu Dhabi lap and said "Sebastian, Mark.....is.....faster.....than....you..."

[Bagwan]

I see no moral issues with Vettel allowing Webber past for the WDC after Ferrari's team orders. If you want to beat a 'cheater' then you have to 'cheat' as well (interpret 'cheating' as you will).

I'd especially like it if Horner came on the radio during the last Abu Dhabi lap and said "Sebastian, Mark.....is.....faster.....than....you..."

That'd be nice .
And then , they could call Dietrich up to the stage to write the $100,000.00 cheque for the trophy .

[motetarip]

That'd be nice .
And then , they could call Dietrich up to the stage to write the $100,000.00 cheque for the trophy .

Wearing a big smile no doubt. He probably carries that much in loose change.

[Tazio]

That'd be nice .
And then , they could call Dietrich up to the stage to write the $100,000.00 cheque for the trophy .



Team principal Christian Horner said after Red Bull had clinched the constructors' title in Brazil with a race to spare that he trusted his drivers to act in the team's best interests

So what is the penalty for giving team orders before the race :confused:



"Of course if they find themselves in a situation where one, because he cannot win, needs to help the other then of course I can only imagine that they will do that. It will have to be a driver decision."

Win the race or win the championship? :confused:

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/08112010/58/red-bull-expect-vettel-help-webber.html

Somehow I can’t see Seb slowing down and battleling Fred early in the race,
too many things can go wrong. RB and "the scuds" have proven that they are the best at managing their tires. So what happens if Fred plays a little possum behind the boss in fourth, (really going easy on the rubber)
And passes him again for 3rd, It will not make any difference how far the RB's are ahead If he finishes 3rd. And if Vettel is well ahead of Mark. I think in that situation RB will have to ride in formation so as not to show world what a hypocrite Horner is.

[motetarip]

I just can't wait to see the race!! To quote a little known commentator - "In Formula 1 anything can happen and it usually does".

[D28]

Although it was instituted 8 years after the WDC, I don't see the Constructors
Championship as a mere afterthought. Logically it is the most important team prize, the one in which everyone can share the glory. Some teams have viewed it differently at various times, I believe Frank Williams for one, thought very highly of all their titles. My own feeling is that the popular press has downgraded the title in recent years, because they focus so much on the WDC.
Whatever happens next week, and I hope Weber pulls it off, Red Bull Racing
still has accomplished a great deal this season. The Constructors title is not to be dismissed lightly.

[DexDexter]

And Vettel moving over for Webber would be what, a glorious day for F1?

What ****ing difference does it make when team orders are used? They are just as illegal in the last race as they are in the first. Red Bull will be "cheating" just as much as Ferrari supposedly did if they move Vettel over.


While Vettel gifting the slower Webber the win and the title would be something else, right? :rolleyes:


You just don't get it do you. It makes the world of difference and I'm not talking about some silly regulations, I'm talking about RACING. When a team decides to slow down one driver in the middle of the season to benefit the other who is not far ahead in the points, we are not talking about motor racing anymore. Red Bulls and Mclarens have RACED each other the whole year and only now team orders are discussed cause it looks like one driver may not have a realistic possibility to win the title.

[airshifter]

Good on Red Bull for letting racing drivers race. If Sebastian is not in position to take the title at the final race he can gift the position to Mark if it will give Mark the title.... without the team requiring orders.

Though the precedent has been set to allow team orders for $100,000, I'd prefer Red Bull not involve themselves in cheating. Until the rule is changed, they sould play by the rule.

[ioan]

I think they made the right decision. Now they have two drivers who can win.

:up: I was hoping that someone did think about it this way! :up:

[ioan]

I know Red Bull will most likely challenge for many more, but you never know. If they never manage to win a drivers title they may rue this race.

Rest assured, Mateschitz didn't make a fortune by tormenting himself on everything that went wrong in his life.

There is people who take a decision based on their beliefs and don't spend their time considering what could have been. By the time it is all over they are already planning their next challenge.

[ioan]

Let's say the two Red Bulls are leading, which is the most likely scenario. Based on their form, Vettel is in front, and Webber is second. If Fernando is third, fourth or fifth, Vettel lets Mark pass for the win and the title. If Fernando is further behind, he doesn't let Mark pass and takes the title himself.

If Alonso is fifth and Vettel first than Vettel is WDC.

[ioan]

Be silly to follow the rules when you could cheat and win. :p :

Not to mention that it would only cost 100000 USD (or Euros).

[ioan]

Much as I want to see Mark lift the title, a part of me stands and applauds Red Bull holding firm to their principles. The only nagging thought in the back of my mind suggests that if it were Webber in arrears to Vettel the team would have no trouble asking (read telling) Mark to pull the hell over.

It just proves that you are biased. ;)

[ioan]

Also I'm not exactly sure if Webber is Red Bulls best chance at the WDC, give Vettel the 50 points he lost from the 2 almost certain victories that mechanical failure has cost him and he would already have the title clinched.

You can add another 7 points for the engine problem he had in Bahrain.

Many people won't like it but based on speed and use/or not of team orders Vettel is already the moral victor of this season. :)

[ioan]

While Vettel gifting the slower Webber the win and the title would be something else, right? :rolleyes:

You mean you are now against a driver deciding to help his team mate?! :rolleyes:

[ioan]

As you say, Schumi didn't have to lie about it, Alonso did ...

At least we now know who's the one without a moral stand (not to mention Singapore). :D

[Hawkmoon]

You just don't get it do you. It makes the world of difference and I'm not talking about some silly regulations, I'm talking about RACING. When a team decides to slow down one driver in the middle of the season to benefit the other who is not far ahead in the points, we are not talking about motor racing anymore. Red Bulls and Mclarens have RACED each other the whole year and only now team orders are discussed cause it looks like one driver may not have a realistic possibility to win the title.

Massa was far enough behind Alonso to make that statement wrong. Couple that with the fact that Massa was having a terrible year and was nowhere near Alonso in terms of pace and the situation for Ferrari in Germany was the same as the one faced by Red Bull. One driver still in contention both mathematically and realitically and the other driver in mathematical contention but realistically out of it.

I have no problem with team orders. I won't have a problem with Webber winning the title if Vettel moves over for him. What I do have a problem with is the fans (and certain team principals) who bitch, moan and call one team a bunch of cheaters for using team orders but think it's totally acceptable for another team to do the same.

Ferrari had the misfortune that one of their drivers under-performed all year. That cost them any chance of fighting for the constructor's title. It paid them back in the driver's title. Red Bull are the opposite. They won the constructor's title because both drivers were competitive all year. That competition may yet cost them the driver's title.

[ioan]

True. Article 39.1 of the sporting regulations says. "Team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited." It doesn't say which race result.

However the key words are 'team orders', which was very obviously the case in Germany, and we all saw how unhappy Felipe and Rob were.

If Vettel knows he has no chance to win and decides to give up his place in order to bring the team the WDC title that would be very different from what we saw in Germany, more like what Massa did in Brazil 2007 and Kimi in China 2008 and is called sportsmanship!

I am fairly sure that the Alonso fans will start a social movement about this, but hey who gives a rat's arse. ;)

[ioan]

Here's how Fernando feels :

"Red Bull has spent three months preaching about equality, so now they should continue with the same philosophy,"

Fernando the hypocrite as we all know him, the guy who was happy to have his team mate crash in order to win a race. :down:
The man who blackmailed his own team!
He should keep his mug shut instead of attacking a team that showed how far fair play can go in F1!

[ioan]

That'd be nice .
And then , they could call Dietrich up to the stage to write the $100,000.00 cheque for the trophy .

After all they are not the ones who cheapened the sport to this level, those accolades go to LdM, Alonso and Santander. :(

[Hawkmoon]

At least we now know who's the one without a moral stand (not to mention Singapore). :D

Ioan you had no problem with Schumi benefitting from team orders, why do you now have a problem with Alonso doing the same? Methinks it's because you loath Alonso and can't stand to see Massa, who you openly support, have to defer to him. A touch hypocritical don't you think?

[ioan]

Good on Red Bull for letting racing drivers race. If Sebastian is not in position to take the title at the final race he can gift the position to Mark if it will give Mark the title.... without the team requiring orders.

Bingo! Common sense wins, hopefully!

[donKey jote]

Fernando the hypocrite as we all know him, the guy who was happy to have his team mate crash in order to win a race. :down:
The man who blackmailed his own team!

ioan the "opinionated" as we all know him :laugh:

[ioan]

Ioan you had no problem with Schumi benefitting from team orders, why do you now have a problem with Alonso doing the same?

Legal vs illegal, big difference.

Also MS was ashamed about it, Alonso wasn't, he has been asking for it for half a race and was happy with it. :down:

I've seen MS help his own team mate back in 1999 and giving wins to Rubens. I am yet to see Alonso doing this.

Prost, Senna and MS ran their opponents of the track in order to win the title vs Alonso had his team mate ordered to crash for a race win.

Should I continue or do you see why it is impossible to support Alonso? :s

[Valve Bounce]

All this about Red Bull leading and running second.
Wouldn't it be funny if Alonso won the race. Now that would be one helluva laugh!! :p :

[donKey jote]

I'm actually officially rooting for Webber :)
Heck must be the first race I'd even love it if Hamilton and Button made it a 2-1 for Mclaren ;) :p

[ioan]

ioan the "opinionated" as we all know him :laugh:

I've never been one who plays nice for the public.

[Bagwan]

Fernando the hypocrite as we all know him, the guy who was happy to have his team mate crash in order to win a race. :down:
The man who blackmailed his own team!
He should keep his mug shut instead of attacking a team that showed how far fair play can go in F1!

Massa the mouse might think Fernando is unfair .
Fisi wasn't fast enough at either Renault or Ferrari .
A timely crash was about all Piquet was good for .

But then , Salamander Dundee doesn't think Red Bull is all that fair either .

And , Fernando texts Lewis often , according to Lewis .

[DexDexter]

Massa was far enough behind Alonso to make that statement wrong. Couple that with the fact that Massa was having a terrible year and was nowhere near Alonso in terms of pace and the situation for Ferrari in Germany was the same as the one faced by Red Bull. One driver still in contention both mathematically and realitically and the other driver in mathematical contention but realistically out of it.

I have no problem with team orders. I won't have a problem with Webber winning the title if Vettel moves over for him. What I do have a problem with is the fans (and certain team principals) who bitch, moan and call one team a bunch of cheaters for using team orders but think it's totally acceptable for another team to do the same.

Ferrari had the misfortune that one of their drivers under-performed all year. That cost them any chance of fighting for the constructor's title. It paid them back in the driver's title. Red Bull are the opposite. They won the constructor's title because both drivers were competitive all year. That competition may yet cost them the driver's title.

The key is WHEN team orders are implemented, that's my point, obviously just an opinion like yours. I have no problems with Massa letting Fred pass in the final or second to final race of the season but too much is too much.

I'm sure most of us just want to see the best man win the title and If Fred wins it, I hope he just storms to victory in Abu Dabi.

[ioan]

Massa the mouse might think Fernando is unfair .
Fisi wasn't fast enough at either Renault or Ferrari .
A timely crash was about all Piquet was good for .

But then , Salamander Dundee doesn't think Red Bull is all that fair either .

And , Fernando texts Lewis often , according to Lewis .

Baggy I don't give a damn, about what Piquet, Fisi, Massa, crocodile Dundee, Bush Obama or Einstein might think.
I think that Alonso is morally the 'cheapest' person on the F1 grid, ever, based on the known reasons, and that's it.

[Cooper_S]

I love how people are very happy for Vettel to give up a win for Webber to win the WDC but slate Alonso for the same...

I'd like to see Vettel on pole let Mark pass at the first lap.... hold up Alonso all race then run wide last corner... Doh!

[ioan]

I love how people are very happy for Vettel to give up a win for Webber to win the WDC but slate Alonso for the same...

I'd like to see Vettel on pole let Mark pass at the first lap.... hold up Alonso all race then run wide last corner... Doh!

Vettel will only let Mark past after the last corner, just to make it more exciting for us! :D

[i_max2k2]

Legal vs illegal, big difference.

Also MS was ashamed about it, Alonso wasn't, he has been asking for it for half a race and was happy with it. :down:

I've seen MS help his own team mate back in 1999 and giving wins to Rubens. I am yet to see Alonso doing this.




Thats precisely why I hate Alonso, and in the last race, Michael let Nico pass since he was on fresh tyres, and don't give me crap that Nico would have overtaken anyway, since people had trouble getting past back markers. MS has been a good team player whenever an opportunity has presented itself.

[Valve Bounce]

I love how people are very happy for Vettel to give up a win for Webber to win the WDC but slate Alonso for the same...

I'd like to see Vettel on pole let Mark pass at the first lap.... hold up Alonso all race then run wide last corner... Doh!

I'd like to see a fair fight for the championship. Does anyone else feel the same?

[Ari]

Has anyone considered this?

The points Alonso gained by "being faster than his team mate" could well be the points which take the title off Vettel and award it to Webber.

Make sense?

Should Vettel pull over on the last lap and let Webber pass for the WDC, this move would not happen if Fernando did not have those extra 7 points which would effectively be blocking Vettel from the WDC.

So, those points may well bring Nando the WDC, or they may take it off Vettel and hand-deliver it to Webber.

Interesting.

[Valve Bounce]

Has anyone considered this?

The points Alonso gained by "being faster than his team mate" could well be the points which take the title off Vettel and award it to Webber.

Make sense?

Should Vettel pull over on the last lap and let Webber pass for the WDC, this move would not happen if Fernando did not have those extra 7 points which would effectively be blocking Vettel from the WDC.

So, those points may well bring Nando the WDC, or they may take it off Vettel and hand-deliver it to Webber.

Interesting.

It proves There is a God!

[Tazio]

Or Red Bull could run into any number of problems, and Fred could let Massa through for a Ferrari 1, 2.
Massa gets back his points and Fred reveals that he is god and a rather clever and wrathful one at that :devil: :laugh:

[mstillhere]

Wake up man, the reason why Ferrari is being bashed here is that they employed team orders in the middle of the season. It's a completely different thing to ask a driver to move over in the last or second to last race than in the middle of the season. It's unethical since this is racing where people are supposed to race each other, at least for the most of the season.

Hum....and this "rule" applies when is your team benifiting from it at the last race or applies to Ferrari as well.

Make up your mind: are team orders good or bad? It's unacceptable to say "well it depends on........"?????? What?

You need to take ONE side an stick to it. This topic needs a rule and yours clearly it is not. You are funny man :)

[mstillhere]

I think it would be ok for team orders at the last race or 2. That seems much more palatable.

Why not 3? Who decides that? Should we go by your palate for a rule?

Your ruleFOR THE LAST TIME is : if it is Ferrari doing it it's wrong no matter at what time in the championship. Anyone else do as you please
we......."understand".......and let's stop the hypocrisy

[mstillhere]

And Vettel moving over for Webber would be what, a glorious day for F1?

What ****ing difference does it make when team orders are used? They are just as illegal in the last race as they are in the first. Red Bull will be "cheating" just as much as Ferrari supposedly did if they move Vettel over.

Thank you. Glad to see I am not the only one see how biased and hypocritical these peopel are. Thank you again.
PS: EU as well

[Ari]

Why not 3? Who decides that? Should we go by your palate for a rule?

Your ruleFOR THE LAST TIME is : if it is Ferrari doing it it's wrong no matter at what time in the championship. Anyone else do as you please
we......."understand".......and let's stop the hypocrisy

Ferrari did it half-way through the season. If RBR do it, they're doing it on the last race to actually EFFECT a result. Ferrari did it just in case and did it WAY too obviously.

There is a world of difference between the two.

[mstillhere]

True. Article 39.1 of the sporting regulations says. "Team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited." It doesn't say which race result.

That said, the points situation does present a very interesting conundrum for Red Bull, F1 and we fans (and possibly the FIA).

Both Red Bull drivers can win the WDC and so, ideally, we would like to see the result decided by their own efforts rather than the team altering positions to favour one or the other. However, the team are faced with the possibility of losing the WDC to Alonso if the race ends with a particular result.

What would you do if you were Red Bull? Decide to back one driver before the race? If so, which one? Swap positions (if required) during the race? Let the cards fall as they will by letting the drivers fight their own battle on-track?

As an F1 fan what do you want to see Red Bull do? Favour Webber or Vettel? Leave both drivers to fight for the title with no team orders?

If you were the FIA what would you do if you suspected team orders had been used by Red Bull in Abu Dhabi? Fine them the same as Ferrari were fined at Hockenheim? Take points away from the team/drivers? Throw them out of the championship(s)? Scrap the team orders rule before Abu Dhabi?

I am sorry, but I am not the one who got myself in this position. They need to deal with their own doing. They need to walk the walk after they did all the talk. RB claim there is no difference in treatment among their two pilots. MW thinks otherwise and it's not secret. Many here beleive that RB prefer Vettel over Webber and yet....it's Ferrari the ONLY bad team. I think many of you being ok with Vettel allowing Webber on the last race you are unethical as well. Rules are rules and need to be applied entirely.

What we would do if etc........well, it's kind of too late for this kind of talk. They freely chose to speak openly against team orders. They are now hurt by Webber's words and blah, blah, blah. All noble sentiments. But it's in the end when it really matters that the true colors come out. And what I see is not different from what Ferrari would have done. No one has the guts to go all the way to the end following the rule. If inconvenient they would just do what they need to do, regardless of the rule. What does that show? That they are liars.

[mstillhere]

I see no moral issues with Vettel allowing Webber past for the WDC after Ferrari's team orders. If you want to beat a 'cheater' then you have to 'cheat' as well (interpret 'cheating' as you will).

I'd especially like it if Horner came on the radio during the last Abu Dhabi lap and said "Sebastian, Mark.....is.....faster.....than....you..."

So IYO are team orders legal or not?

[mstillhere]

You just don't get it do you. It makes the world of difference and I'm not talking about some silly regulations, I'm talking about RACING. When a team decides to slow down one driver in the middle of the season to benefit the other who is not far ahead in the points, we are not talking about motor racing anymore. Red Bulls and Mclarens have RACED each other the whole year and only now team orders are discussed cause it looks like one driver may not have a realistic possibility to win the title.

Is that a rule?

[mstillhere]

Good on Red Bull for letting racing drivers race. If Sebastian is not in position to take the title at the final race he can gift the position to Mark if it will give Mark the title.... without the team requiring orders.

Though the precedent has been set to allow team orders for $100,000, I'd prefer Red Bull not involve themselves in cheating. Until the rule is changed, they sould play by the rule.

I really think that Vettel is going to "qualify" behind Webber and Alonso. And leave the whole thing to them to battle it out. This way there would not controversy.

[mstillhere]

Thats precisely why I hate Alonso, and in the last race, Michael let Nico pass since he was on fresh tyres, and don't give me crap that Nico would have overtaken anyway, since people had trouble getting past back markers. MS has been a good team player whenever an opportunity has presented itself.

I can't beleive my eyes. All of the sudden my hero MS is a saint????? Boy, I love this site. :)

[Tazio]

It proves There is a God!


Helena:

"Our remedies oft in ourselves do lie,
Which we ascribe to Heaven."


:s ailor: All's Well That Ends Well (I, i, 231-232)

I just realized that if Fred wins this weekend, he will pull alongside Jackie Stewart, who also has 27 wins and 3 WDC's to his name.


BTW If Fred wins the WDC this season he will be the youngest pilot to amass 3 WDC's.

[Valve Bounce]

I can't beleive my eyes. All of the sudden my hero MS is a saint????? Boy, I love this site. :)
That explains why you post, and post, and post, and post, and.............

[Warriwa]

I really think that Vettel is going to "qualify" behind Webber and Alonso. And leave the whole thing to them to battle it out. This way there would not controversy.

I really think that Vettel will go hell for leather and hope that Alonso does badly. This will be the fastest drive from him all season. The title may well be his.

[Hawkmoon]

Legal vs illegal, big difference.

Also MS was ashamed about it, Alonso wasn't, he has been asking for it for half a race and was happy with it. :down:

I've seen MS help his own team mate back in 1999 and giving wins to Rubens. I am yet to see Alonso doing this.

Prost, Senna and MS ran their opponents of the track in order to win the title vs Alonso had his team mate ordered to crash for a race win.

Should I continue or do you see why it is impossible to support Alonso? :s

My point is that your opinion of team orders varies depending on who's on the receiving end. I didn't see you crying foul when Raikkonen moved over for Massa in China '08, when team orders were just as illegal as they are today.

You don't like Alonso? Fair enough. Neither do I. But he's Ferrari's best chance of a title and has been for most of the season. That's why I support him. I don't care what he did prior to 2010 and I won't care what he does after he leaves Ferrari. While ever he has his arse in a Ferrari he has my support. Makes me one-eyed I supposed, but there it is.

[Hawkmoon]

The key is WHEN team orders are implemented, that's my point, obviously just an opinion like yours. I have no problems with Massa letting Fred pass in the final or second to final race of the season but too much is too much.

I'm sure most of us just want to see the best man win the title and If Fred wins it, I hope he just storms to victory in Abu Dabi.

That's the problem with this kind of argument. When, exactly, is it OK for team orders to be employed? The last race? Two races from the end? Three? How do you put a figure on when it's OK to break a rule?

If Vettel pulls over for Webber it is no different from Massa doing it for Alonso. Both Massa and Vettel will have done it while still in mathematical contention for the WDC.

[Valve Bounce]

My point is that your opinion of team orders varies depending on who's on the receiving end. I didn't see you crying foul when Raikkonen moved over for Massa in China '08, when team orders were just as illegal as they are today.

You don't like Alonso? Fair enough. Neither do I. But he's Ferrari's best chance of a title and has been for most of the season. That's why I support him. I don't care what he did prior to 2010 and I won't care what he does after he leaves Ferrari. While ever he has his arse in a Ferrari he has my support. Makes me one-eyed I supposed, but there it is.

Good grief!! you Collingwood supporters are all alike. :eek:

[Valve Bounce]

That's the problem with this kind of argument. When, exactly, is it OK for team orders to be employed? The last race? Two races from the end? Three? How do you put a figure on when it's OK to break a rule?

If Vettel pulls over for Webber it is no different from Massa doing it for Alonso. Both Massa and Vettel will have done it while still in mathematical contention for the WDC.

There will be NO Team Orders; the drivers will do whatever it takes IF they feel like it. :p :

[Cooper_S]

The race may be an anti climax as a bad qualification from any of the top 3 could seal the championship before the lights even go out.

[Valve Bounce]

The race may be an anti climax as a bad qualification from any of the top 3 could seal the championship before the lights even go out.

Or the sky could fall in on them, or they could be attacked by marauding aliens, or the butchers could go on strike, or..........................

[Cooper_S]

Don’t be so rude,

We all know any number of what If’s can happen… but to quote my suggestion (which I feel is very plausible) and then simply reply with such fanciful scenarios is not a fair comparison.

[Valve Bounce]

Jest funnin' :p :

[motetarip]

The WMSC decided team orders were as good as ok this season by failing to dock points from Ferrari for the Hockenheim incident. Subsequently, regardless of how the other teams may criticise team orders, I think it's perfectly (morally) fair for RBR to swap drivers in the last race if they have to correct that points inequality.

[Cooper_S]

Mateschitz says he would prefer his team come 2nd in the WDC rather than use team orders.



Red Bull boss Dietrich Mateschitz says he would prefer any of his drivers to finish in second place in the championship before imposing team orders.
The team has refused to throw its weight behind Mark Webber this season, despite the Australian having been in a stronger position than team-mate Sebastian Vettel in the latter part of the season.
Vettel won the Brazilian Grand Prix on Sunday, finishing ahead of Webber and championship leader Fernando Alonso.
The result meant Alonso will clinch the title in the season finale in Abu Dhabi by finishing in second if Vettel wins.
Despite the team's position benefiting Alonso, Mateschitz says imposing team orders was never a possibility, and he claims he would prefer his drivers to lose out "under the correct circumstances".
"To interfere with the drivers was never a possibility for us," said Mateschitz. "The whole world condemned Ferrari after what they did in Hockenheim, but we have turned out as idiots because we did not act in this way.
"We never even thought about it.....
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/88087

[Retro Formula 1]

The WMSC decided team orders were as good as ok this season by failing to dock points from Ferrari for the Hockenheim incident. Subsequently, regardless of how the other teams may criticise team orders, I think it's perfectly (morally) fair for RBR to swap drivers in the last race if they have to correct that points inequality.


I think you are correct.

Whatever your opinion on whether team orders should be banned, it is undeniable that Ferrari enforced a position change against the wish of one driver to benefit another and were found guilty.

The WMSC then failed in their duty to rectify and punish the transgression of the rules. They merely bestowed a monetary fee that failed to redress or even punish the material breach of the rules.

Now we are in a situation where a driver is leading the WDC by 8 points when legally he should have been leading it by 1 point.

I'm no fan of Red Bull but I would hate for the championship to be won by the actions of proven cheating. If Alonso wins by 7 points or less, the sport will have again descended into farce and disrepute.

[Retro Formula 1]

I'd like to see a fair fight for the championship. Does anyone else feel the same?

That is now impossible because Ferrari have been found guilty of breaking the rules and the WMSC failed to at least reverse the situation so the table was fair.

[SGWilko]

My thoughts, for what they are worth....

Red Bull - despite what may or may not have happened in Turkey re the engines and THAT abortive pass by Vettel - have played it straight, and let their drivers race.

Vettel is still very young, and has a lot to learn. He will, without doubt, be a future champion.

I do not agree with, but can understand RB's apparent favouritism of Vettel, after all, they have spent a lot on him.

Webber is nearing the end of his career, I would like to see him take the title.

I applaud Diddi's stance re the racing, even if they lose the WDC. The important thing is, that as a constructor in their own right - and an independant at that, they have taken the WCC.

Given the established might of Ferrari and McLaren, RB can be very proud of their achievments.

I applaud them. If either MW or SV take the title, and Alonso too, lest we forget, they will have deserved it.

I don't like Alonso, but you got to hand it to him, he's done the business this year.

[DexDexter]

Hum....and this "rule" applies when is your team benifiting from it at the last race or applies to Ferrari as well.

Make up your mind: are team orders good or bad? It's unacceptable to say "well it depends on........"?????? What?

You need to take ONE side an stick to it. This topic needs a rule and yours clearly it is not. You are funny man :)

Team orders are part of F1 but that is not the end of the story. It's you who is funny if you don't understand the difference of TIMING in team orders. Webber and Vettel are allowed to race each other at least until one of them doesn't have any chance to win the title. Massa wasn't allowedl to finish ahead of Alonso when he had a chance to win the title and the season was only halfway through. After Hockenheim Alonso had some troubled races and the points difference between Massa and Fred was at one point really small.

It's pointless to explain this to you anyway based on what you write.




I don't like Alonso, but you got to hand it to him, he's done the business this year.

He's done a pretty good job but Red Bulls make his season look better than it really is. Come on guys, Alonso has crashed many times as a result of a driver error this year. That is not business well done. Everybody just forgets so quickly.

[Cooper_S]

Any team with equally matched drivers allowed to race each other are doomed... it is not impossible of course but equal performances mean equal points over the whole season and neither had enough advantage to make the other yield.

Ferrari knew Alonso was strong enough to make that call earlier in the season... as Schumacher was in 2002. Red Bull could never have justified favouring Mark any earlier, indeed it is hard to justify it even now.

Unless the team can dominate the whole field (like say Mclaren in 1988) then drivers equally matched will only have each other to beat... Vettel and Webber have had until Sunday 3 other driver in the hunt and mathematically still have 2 others.

Let the boys race and let the championship fall where it will

[Cooper_S]

He's done a pretty good job but Red Bulls make his season look better than it really is. Come on guys, Alonso has crashed many times as a result of a driver error this year. That is not business well done. Everybody just forgets so quickly.

No driver is without error this season... and Vettel has had some terrible luck while dominating and leading races... he could easily have had 3 more wins and 70+ more points this season... enough for all this to be over two races ago.

The point is in 60 years we get a champion based on the performance AND results over a whole season... that will not change on Sunday, and any runner up will be runner up because they could do no more than they did.

[ArrowsFA1]

IMHO it's pretty even between Alonso, Webber & Vettel. All sorts of points combinations could end up with a different winner, but each of them has a good case to be called a deserving WDC.

The major asset Alonso has, aside from the support of Massa (although I doubt whether Felipe will be in a position to help much), is his experience of being in this position a few times and coming out as the winner twice. That will help. Also, Webber and Vettel could end up tripping over themselves in the anticipation of becoming WDC each for the first time.

Then there's Hamilton. Probably not a genuine factor, but putting a horse and two bulls in the same field could have an unpredictable outcome :crazy: :s mokin:

[AndyL]

Mateschitz says he would prefer his team come 2nd in the WDC rather than use team orders.

Hardly surprising given that only Webber could benefit from them.

[Tazio]

Hardly surprising given that only Webber could benefit from them.Mateschitz should replace Bernie.
His ideas are consistent with the kind of verbal diarrhea the latter spews!

[Bagwan]

Baggy I don't give a damn, about what Piquet, Fisi, Massa, crocodile Dundee, Bush Obama or Einstein might think.
I think that Alonso is morally the 'cheapest' person on the F1 grid, ever, based on the known reasons, and that's it.

My friend , all we have to judge with is in the news from the paddock .
We don't know them .

Take Lewis as a first example .
He was hammer and tong with Fernando , in the middle of a scandal , and in a fierce title fight . Lewis was favoured , and still is , when McLaren was watched closely to ensure fairness in the garage .
Despite all the agro when together , they are good friends now .
Apples and bannanas are both fruit in the bowl , and perhaps Lewis looking whiter than white in the affair was photoshopping food .

Regarding the Piquet crash scandal , do you feel it was Fernando's idea ?
Was he , perhaps , doing what his team asked him to do ?
Nobody seems to have spared any thought as to what Fernando , himself , thought about that whole affair .
He may well have been saying "Well , this is another fine mess you've gotten me into ." to Flavio , behind the scenes .

I think you do give a damn about what Massa thinks of him .
I used to be as big a fan of Felipe as yourself , mostly because he's the only guy on the grid that I've met .
But , he disappointed me when he and his engineer wouldn't toe the line and work as a team .

The Bulls are in this mess because they have two fast drivers .
To lose the WDC because they are in-fighting , will be foolish .

What do you think Felipe should do for his team-mate next race ?
Should he help such a scandalous driver to win for his team , or should he sit back and watch from a mid-field position ?

[jens]

I remember opinions like Red Bull could have favoured Webber since Spa. That would have meant that Vettel should have moved over for him for the last four consecutive races in a row!! Wouldn't that have been a bit weird? If Webber wants to be a WDC, he should be able to outrace his team-mate on merit on occasion too. RBR may be favouring Vettel, but consider also this that from sporting point of view it really feels weird to put all your eggs into the slower driver's basket. I would feel odd to order faster driver to move over for the slower one every single race. Perhaps RBR doesn't view Webber as "worthy enough" to be a team leader and hence are ready to lose the WDC to Alonso, even if this is the ultimate consequence.

[Cooper_S]

Just because Vettel holds a special place within RBR, does not mean they do not want Mark to win... they want both titles and if that ultimately means Mark winning the WDC, Red Bull will be ecstatic... Vettel may very well not end up as 2010 WDC, but not because he is not capable, he has the raw talent and youth on his side... 2011 is another year. and Red Bull will not be letting him go anytime soon.

[Firstgear]

Mateschitz says he would prefer his team come 2nd in the WDC rather than use team orders.
This sounds to me like Mark has a performance clause in his contract, that Diet's doesn't really want to have to pay out on.

[Cooper_S]

If... Vettel does win with Webber 2nd and Alonso 3rd... Alonso wins becomes 3 time WDC as we know...

But Vettel would end the season on equal points with Webber BUT ahead in the standings with more wins... that would give him #3 on his 2011 RB7 to Marks #4 and de Factor leading RBR driver... he may not win the WDC crown but that may be just more important to him than facing 2011 with Webber #1 to his #2

[Sonic]

If... Vettel does win with Webber 2nd and Alonso 3rd... Alonso wins becomes 3 time WDC as we know...

But Vettel would end the season on equal points with Webber BUT ahead in the standings with more wins... that would give him #3 on his 2011 RB7 to Marks #4 and de Factor leading RBR driver... he may not win the WDC crown but that may be just more important to him than facing 2011 with Webber #1 to his #2

I can't speak for Vettel but I seriously doubt such a thought would occur to him - it certainly hasn't to me.

[Cooper_S]

Just trowing it out there... I doubt Vettel is thinking that either.

[Sonic]

Just trowing it out there... I doubt Vettel is thinking that either.

Fair do's. :)

[ioan]

It proves There is a God!

And he doesn't give a damn about what's fair and what isn't.
(for the record I don't believe there is a God)

[ioan]

Regarding the Piquet crash scandal , do you feel it was Fernando's idea ?


I do not think he is that smart, however he was more than happy with it and that is a HUGE :down: .
He never questioned when the team told him to pit after very few laps into the race, this means he knew that the very strange strategy was well set up for him to take advantage.

[Daniel]

I do not think he is that smart, however he was more than happy with it and that is a HUGE :down: .
He never questioned when the team told him to pit after very few laps into the race, this means he knew that the very strange strategy was well set up for him to take advantage.

First there was the McLaren fuss in 2007 where he caused problems which admittedly I feel McLaren deserved
Then there was crashgate.

As a not particularly wise man said "Fool me once, shame on.... shame on you ........ fool me, can't get fooled again"

[Big Ben]

The only way Lewis was ever favoured in all of that was by Ron Dennis who embraced his driver when he did well and offered verbal endoresement. The FIA found no evidence that Fernando had an inferior car, and Fernando himself said:


The atmosphere within Mclaren was strained between a driver who threatened to blackmail the team and its team principle. Everything worked out for the best in the end and I have no doubt Lewis and Fernando have complete respect for one another. If we have to keep going over these events we need to get our facts straight. You can say Lewis was favoured all you like, but you cannot prove it other than come up with the "we were racing Fernando" line which was your only defence in the past and suggests nothing.

It was part of the parting ways deal that they would not speak about the internal fight that went on... I guess both parties have things they'd rather keep secret... At least that's what an inside source I can't name told me :laugh: ... no... actually I thing I read it somewhere but who remembers things from so long time ago.... anyways it seems to hold some water. after such a rough season both of them were pretty silent on the matter and not many things came out ever since.

[ioan]

First there was the McLaren fuss in 2007 where he caused problems which admittedly I feel McLaren deserved
Then there was crashgate.

As a not particularly wise man said "Fool me once, shame on.... shame on you ........ fool me, can't get fooled again"

:up:

[Ari]

I remember opinions like Red Bull could have favoured Webber since Spa. That would have meant that Vettel should have moved over for him for the last four consecutive races in a row!! Wouldn't that have been a bit weird? If Webber wants to be a WDC, he should be able to outrace his team-mate on merit on occasion too. RBR may be favouring Vettel, but consider also this that from sporting point of view it really feels weird to put all your eggs into the slower driver's basket. I would feel odd to order faster driver to move over for the slower one every single race. Perhaps RBR doesn't view Webber as "worthy enough" to be a team leader and hence are ready to lose the WDC to Alonso, even if this is the ultimate consequence.

Here's a spanner in the works for you.

Webber has not dominated a race for some time. But, when he did.... he did it well. Is it possible that maybe RBR ARE playing with his car?

At the last track, he was .3 slower generally in the technical sector of the track. Interesting.

It would not surprise me one bit if he's being toyed with at the moment by RBR. Well, that and the fact he's using a Vettel rejected chassis.

I'm not convinced all is well and fair at RBR, as we mostly believe.

Oh, one final note. What if:

a) Webber has a MASSIVE WDC payout that Dietrich doesn't wish to service? So big, that it was only ever imaginary as Webber could never be WDC.

b) Webber has already signed for Ferrari and Massa is off to Renault. Dietrich does not want to see Webber take the #1 decal to Ferrari. Hard enough for Nando to get it, let alone have it taken by a Red Bull driver.

Just some food for thought.

[mstillhere]

Ferrari did it half-way through the season. If RBR do it, they're doing it on the last race to actually EFFECT a result. Ferrari did it just in case and did it WAY too obviously.

There is a world of difference between the two.

Is that a rule, yes or not? In this sport we need rules to go by. If that's all you got then it's all based on one's biased opinion.

[mstillhere]

That explains why you post, and post, and post, and post, and.............

No, it's only due to the time difference. It feels weird though to see all my posts one after the other and...............no one else outhere :)

[mstillhere]

I really think that Vettel will go hell for leather and hope that Alonso does badly. This will be the fastest drive from him all season. The title may well be his.

Well it also depends on his team position. For Vettel to win the race does not give him the title if Webber or Alsonso would be arriving second.

[mstillhere]

That's the problem with this kind of argument. When, exactly, is it OK for team orders to be employed? The last race? Two races from the end? Three? How do you put a figure on when it's OK to break a rule?

If Vettel pulls over for Webber it is no different from Massa doing it for Alonso. Both Massa and Vettel will have done it while still in mathematical contention for the WDC.

Well, I think my stand has been and is very clear: let the team orders be open any time of the championship. It's those who accept them with "reserve" that keep in walking a fine line arbitrarly deciding when it is "correct" to use them or not. THey need to take a clear stand that can be used by anyone at any time of the championship.

[mstillhere]

The WMSC decided team orders were as good as ok this season by failing to dock points from Ferrari for the Hockenheim incident. Subsequently, regardless of how the other teams may criticise team orders, I think it's perfectly (morally) fair for RBR to swap drivers in the last race if they have to correct that points inequality.

I agree with you but I think it's RB who is having a problem with that ruling

[mstillhere]

That is now impossible because Ferrari have been found guilty of breaking the rules and the WMSC failed to at least reverse the situation so the table was fair.

I think you should include RB in your sentence. At least according to MW.

[mstillhere]

Team orders are part of F1 but that is not the end of the story. It's you who is funny if you don't understand the difference of TIMING in team orders. Webber and Vettel are allowed to race each other at least until one of them doesn't have any chance to win the title. Massa wasn't allowedl to finish ahead of Alonso when he had a chance to win the title and the season was only halfway through. After Hockenheim Alonso had some troubled races and the points difference between Massa and Fred was at one point really small.

It's pointless to explain this to you anyway based on what you write.



He's done a pretty good job but Red Bulls make his season look better than it really is. Come on guys, Alonso has crashed many times as a result of a driver error this year. That is not business well done. Everybody just forgets so quickly.

I need a rule man. A rule. You guys are flip flopping. team orders are not good but yet they are good. And no. I don't understand your stand on this issue. You can't ahve it both ways.

[airshifter]

I need a rule man. A rule. You guys are flip flopping. team orders are not good but yet they are good. And no. I don't understand your stand on this issue. You can't ahve it both ways.

They and anyone else can have it any way they want. Ferrari used team orders and the finding of the WMSC was that though illegal, you can violate rules for somewhere around $100,000. If Red Bull or anyone else do it, it won't be any worse than what Ferrari did, and since Ferrari did it so early in the season more people would see a last race order to retain a title much more justified, and probably better use of $100,000.

Rather than keep asking anyone else about the rule, grab a mirror. Since you obviously have no trouble with Ferrari violating the rule, you shouldn't have anything to say if someone else does it. Unless of course you are once again stating how stupid the rule is.

So do you want the team orders rule enforced or not?

[mstillhere]

They and anyone else can have it any way they want. Ferrari used team orders and the finding of the WMSC was that though illegal, you can violate rules for somewhere around $100,000. If Red Bull or anyone else do it, it won't be any worse than what Ferrari did, and since Ferrari did it so early in the season more people would see a last race order to retain a title much more justified, and probably better use of $100,000.

Rather than keep asking anyone else about the rule, grab a mirror. Since you obviously have no trouble with Ferrari violating the rule, you shouldn't have anything to say if someone else does it. Unless of course you are once again stating how stupid the rule is.

So do you want the team orders rule enforced or not?

You need to read the fia ruling mentioning why Ferrari was not found guilty. If you take the time and read it says that since MANY TEAMS has applied team morders one way or another over time therefore it would be unfair to single only one team, ferrari in this case, for team orders.

I had enough with the hypocrisy. If the team orders are illegal then NO ONE CAN DO IT. It does not matter if it's at the beginning, in the middle or at the end of the season. Period!!

What part of illegal you guys don't understand?? It's darn simple and you guys keep on twisting everything saying yes...well...it is...but....you know...it's the end of the championship......it's not so bad.....Please, that's all BS.

If it had been Ferrari in the RB position NO ONE amoung the Ferrari bashers would be justifing what many of you are asking RB to do. Again if it's illegal, it's illegal. Comprende????

PS Enforce the rule if its illegal. For everyone!!

[airshifter]

I had enough with the hypocrisy. If the team orders are illegal then NO ONE CAN DO IT. It does not matter if it's at the beginning, in the middle or at the end of the season. Period!!



Then you should be thrilled that Ferrari were fined for their once again blatant and unsporting use of team orders. Of course, this is nothing new to them, since they were the team that abused it so badly when it was legal that it created the rule.

Rather than assume everone who doesn't agree with you is a Ferrari basher, maybe you should actually listen to their points and take them at face value. I'd rather see the rule enforced, but being that the WMSC only imposed a fine and did not deduct points for their infraction, the precedent has been set.

If RB did in fact issue a team order, to me it would be egg in Ferrari's face, and they would have to accept the fact that they hold no high moral ground for attempting to claim others should adhere to a higher standard than they do. That seems to be the same drum you are beating.... you don't condemn Ferrari for doing it but condemn forum members for suggesting it wouldn't be unfair.

Personally I'd rather that RB not use a team order regardless of the effect on the title.

[Valve Bounce]

Boy, I love this site. :)

You sure do - and that's why you post, and post, and post, and post, ..........

But hey!! don't let the time difference or jet lag stop ya!! we all need the continual injection of intellect to keep this site at the apex of sporting excellence.

[Valve Bounce]

You need to read the fia ruling mentioning why Ferrari was not found guilty. If you take the time and read it says that since MANY TEAMS has applied team morders one way or another over time therefore it would be unfair to single only one team, ferrari in this case, for team orders.

I had enough with the hypocrisy. If the team orders are illegal then NO ONE CAN DO IT. It does not matter if it's at the beginning, in the middle or at the end of the season. Period!!

What part of illegal you guys don't understand?? It's darn simple and you guys keep on twisting everything saying yes...well...it is...but....you know...it's the end of the championship......it's not so bad.....Please, that's all BS.

If it had been Ferrari in the RB position NO ONE amoung the Ferrari bashers would be justifing what many of you are asking RB to do. Again if it's illegal, it's illegal. Comprende????

PS Enforce the rule if its illegal. For everyone!!
By the way, when you hear Red Bull order one of their drivers to let the other guy through, please let me know ! Then I can join in and kick their butt!

[wmcot]

By the way, when you hear Red Bull order one of their drivers to let the other guy through, please let me know ! Then I can join in and kick their butt!

So we might have some butt kicking in 4 days?

[Bagwan]

I do not think he is that smart, however he was more than happy with it and that is a HUGE :down: .
He never questioned when the team told him to pit after very few laps into the race, this means he knew that the very strange strategy was well set up for him to take advantage.

You know as well as I , that he had no chance to get anywhere in that race , a race his ING team sponsors were sponsoring , and the pressure was on all of them to try anything to get closer to the front .
It is equally as plausable that he , like all the others , was expecting a safety car in those tight streets , and an early stop would take advantage .

It was a gamble under pressure that Flavio tried to pull off . Piquet didn't hurt anyone in that move , other than Flav , himself , when he gave up that he had crashed under orders .
Nobody had tried it before , or at least that we know of , and it almost worked .
And , nobody has found any evidence that Fernando knew , other than the speculation that you mention , based solely on the fact that he didn't question the team when they asked him to pit .

And , what would you have him do now , anyway ?
He didn't commit the "crime" .
Should he give back the trophy ?
Everyone sees what Flav did . Should he toss the manager under the bus again ?

He's seen now as "unworthy" , because Massa moved over for him .
Whether legal or illegal , team orders are often seen to diminish the number two by some , and tarnish the number one by others .

When the order comes , it is a question of taste , whether one likes it or not . If your driver gets the order , the taste is decidedly bitter .

Team orders are illegal , and Red Bull , having been harsh towards Ferrari for having employed them , are now under the microscope , giving veiled team orders like "They know what to do ." , as the magnification factor grows .

[Bagwan]

Exactly. :up:
Its amusing to see people who argued til they were blue in the face why Ferrari were right in what they did, and that the rule is stupid and now there is a suggestion Red Bull might use team orders in a covert way, it's suddenly hypocritical and illegal. If Vettel pulls aside and lets Webber through without a prompt, how can it be proved that it was team orders anyway? It could be deemed as a drivers gesture who has decided to help his team clinch both championships. On the other hand if Red Bull are stupid enough to verbally ask Vettel to move over using team radio for the world to hear, then they deserve all the scrutiny they get.

So , for you , it's all about how well they hide it ?

For me , it just highlights the stupidity of the whole deal .

If they employ team orders , implied or not , do they not mock the rule ?

If they do , should they not , on the basis of being completely fair about it , do it out in the open , and pay the required fine ?

Many fans are advocating that they should break the rules if necessary , in order to win the title . Many are advocating this as they feel a wrong has already been done .
In fact , they feel Fernando's title will be diminished if he wins by less than seven points he "stole" .

This 'Team orders must be no more than innuendo" rule has to go .
You might imply the his team-mate is faster , but don't infer you'll fire his a$$ if he doesn't toe the line .

[ArrowsFA1]

The FIA found no evidence that Fernando had an inferior car.
That whole FIA official being placed in the garage thing was a piece of pure Max theater for Max's enjoyment. You can see officials in team garages at every race weekend. Nothing unusual there except Max's vendetta created on the pretext of allegations made in the media drummed up at the height of a very devisive season.

Fortunately we appear now to have a more even-handed FIA who looked at events in Hockenheim and believed team orders were used, but this was difficult to prove beyond all doubt. There was a recognition that article 39.1 is flawed and had not been applied consistently. Still, the penalty stood and Ferrari were guilty of using team orders.

Getting worked up about something (Red Bull issuing team orders in the final race) that hasn't happened and may not happen seems a little daft. However, if it does happen then, under the existing rule and precedent, Red Bull should be fined $100,000 and that be the end of it.

Perhaps then we can have a reasonable discussion about the whole team orders issue and what people would like to see happen to Article 39.1.

[555-04Q2]

Perhaps then we can have a reasonable discussion about the whole team orders issue and what people would like to see happen to Article 39.1.

No need to discuss it or see what happens me old matey. Just scrap the stupid rule and let everyone move on with life in a TEAM sport.

[motetarip]

No need to discuss it or see what happens me old matey. Just scrap the stupid rule and let everyone move on with life in a TEAM sport.

True, either have only one car per constructor, or have teams orders and designated #1 and #2 drivers so everyone knows where they stand.

[ioan]

You know as well as I , that he had no chance to get anywhere in that race , a race his ING team sponsors were sponsoring , and the pressure was on all of them to try anything to get closer to the front .

Crumbling under the corporate pressure is also a huge :down: , so why do you think that Alonso deserves support?! I don't see anything positive.


It is equally as plausable that he , like all the others , was expecting a safety car in those tight streets , and an early stop would take advantage .

Then why not pit every 2nd lap after the start, after all an accident might happen any time?! How did the y chose the magical number, and ow is it that the crash involved his team mate?!

I just don't believe in coincidences.

[Valve Bounce]

Crumbling under the corporate pressure is also a huge :down: , so why do you think that Alonso deserves support?! I don't see anything positive.

.

I fully understand your frustration, especially when this guy drives for Ferrari yet has such a tarnished persona.

I look at it this way: you can look at all the players in soccer and somehow the fans believe they should be role models simply because they are in the public eye. In fact, this population of sportsmen are no different from any cross section of people in society, ranging from the good down to the despicable.

And so it is with drivers in motorsport. True! they are gifted in their ability, a helluva lot more than I could ever hope to be. But once you consider them as people in any section of society, then you will get the same cross section applying: from the good to the despicable. That Alonso is extremely gifted in his driving ability does not exonerate him from being despicable in his persona.

[Ari]

Is that a rule, yes or not? In this sport we need rules to go by. If that's all you got then it's all based on one's biased opinion.

Rules? They cost 100k don't they?

Rules left the discussion when Ferrari were allowed to keep their Germany points. Don't talk to me about rules!

[Ari]

Well, I think my stand has been and is very clear: let the team orders be open any time of the championship. It's those who accept them with "reserve" that keep in walking a fine line arbitrarly deciding when it is "correct" to use them or not. THey need to take a clear stand that can be used by anyone at any time of the championship.

There have always been team orders, and there always will be.

The problem this year arose because Ferrari made things WAY too obvious.

Kimi won a WDC in 2007 because of team orders. Massa was to pit first and Kimi put in a couple blinders to get ahead. That was team orders, everyone know... no one cared.

When one car pulls to the inside and lets the other overtake on the outside into a corner because they're told on the radio, THAT brings the sport into disrepute and that's really what it's all about.

[mstillhere]

Rules? They cost 100k don't they?

Rules left the discussion when Ferrari were allowed to keep their Germany points. Don't talk to me about rules!

For the onethousandth time: regardless if people have done openly (Ferrari) or not (everyone else) I am all for clarity. If it's illegal ten I would expect teh FIA to chack down on the rules breakers and make pay dearly.

On the other hand, if we find that's innatural for F1 not to have team orders them make it legal from day 1. That's it. Simple ins'nt?

But to hear you guys say, well team orders are to be "accepted" only towards the end of the champioship but SO FIRMLY against doing it at the beginning or in the middle unless clearly stated in the rules of F1 I find it simply unacceptable, objectable and irrational.

[mstillhere]

There have always been team orders, and there always will be.

The problem this year arose because Ferrari made things WAY too obvious.

Kimi won a WDC in 2007 because of team orders. Massa was to pit first and Kimi put in a couple blinders to get ahead. That was team orders, everyone know... no one cared.

When one car pulls to the inside and lets the other overtake on the outside into a corner because they're told on the radio, THAT brings the sport into disrepute and that's really what it's all about.

I agree 100% with you. But I am totally against grey areas since they bring endless confrontations and arguments not to mention uncertainty and eventually cheating. I am aware that grey seems to be the FIA's favorite color, but it does not mean that I have to like it. I prefer clear, simple and open rules easy to apply.

[mstillhere]

Exactly. :up:
Its amusing to see people who argued til they were blue in the face why Ferrari were right in what they did, and that the rule is stupid and now there is a suggestion Red Bull might use team orders in a covert way, it's suddenly hypocritical and illegal. If Vettel pulls aside and lets Webber through without a prompt, how can it be proved that it was team orders anyway? It could be deemed as a drivers gesture who has decided to help his team clinch both championships. On the other hand if Red Bull are stupid enough to verbally ask Vettel to move over using team radio for the world to hear, then they deserve all the scrutiny they get.

You are missing a fine point here which is: Red Bull openly and loudly against them. That's it. Had they said nothing about it right now we would not have this discussion at all. But they had to open their mouth and now they cannot retract what they said because it would like they were never against team orders in first place. It was all talk.

Also, if you were referring to me in your post I did say they would be hypocritical but I never said it would be illegal. If it were Ferrari in te RB place, I would be the first wanting Ferrari to give the "coup de grace" at the championship and win it.
My point has been and is based on hypocrisy and the lying.

[Valve Bounce]

For the onethousandth time: regardless if people have done openly (Ferrari) or not (everyone else) I am all for clarity. If it's illegal ten I would expect teh FIA to chack down on the rules breakers and make pay dearly.

On the other hand, if we find that's innatural for F1 not to have team orders them make it legal from day 1. That's it. Simple ins'nt?

But to hear you guys say, well team orders are to be "accepted" only towards the end of the champioship but SO FIRMLY against doing it at the beginning or in the middle unless clearly stated in the rules of F1 I find it simply unacceptable, objectable and irrational.

Let's be sensible about this - there will be no overt team orders from now on. Team orders will be done in an underhand way by drivers without direct radio instructions.

[555-04Q2]

Let's be sensible about this - there will be no overt team orders from now on. Team orders will be done in an underhand way by drivers without direct radio instructions.

Which is worse than being open about it in front of the world. Scrap the stupid rule!

[Valve Bounce]

Which is worse than being open about it in front of the world. Scrap the stupid rule!

Agreed!

[555-04Q2]

Agreed!

There's a first :p : ;)

[markabilly]

Bottom line is the fact that the presence of team orders at the last race would have hurt vettel's chances. Same at next and final race.

Hence rather lose the WDC then hurt Vettel's chances.

[edv]

Well, in regards to possible outcomes on Sunday, Vettel has come out and said this:
"My first goal is pole position, my second is winning the race. And if necessary I can analyse the situation and decide very quickly," added Vettel.
from motorsport dot com (http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=394115&FS=F1)

[ioan]

For the onethousandth time: regardless if people have done openly (Ferrari) or not (everyone else) I am all for clarity. If it's illegal ten I would expect teh FIA to chack down on the rules breakers and make pay dearly.

Fully agreed. 100000 USD is a lot of money, don't you think?! :rolleyes:

[ioan]

Well, in regards to possible outcomes on Sunday, Vettel has come out and said this:
"My first goal is pole position, my second is winning the race. And if necessary I can analyse the situation and decide very quickly," added Vettel.
from motorsport dot com (http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=394115&FS=F1)

That's it than, no team orders to Vettel, he's got a head of his own. :)
Some people will get all blue if one of the RBR drivers wins the championship! I even know one who will probably throw his TV set through the window! :D

[airshifter]

What sort of system or punishment do you propose to the teams who ask their drivers to pull over for the other when the conversation has happened in the privacy of a boardroom or team motorhome?

How can it be proved that a team order has occured?

If drivers/teams are punished on suspicion of team orders without proof of radio communication and without any proof that the driver in question has made a controlled decision, we get into the domain of taking decision making away from the driver.

If teams are stupid enough to flout the rules of the sport by using coded messages like "I am silver fox, the rat in your drainpipe need clearing", then it becomes dangerous ground and worthy of punishment. I very much doubt we'll see any team repeating what Ferrari did in Germany and without proof its difficult to punish the perpetrator.


Without something as blatant as what Ferrari did, they could not prove it even if it was an arranged team order that took place before the race and public eye. Ferrari dug their own grave, as they left sufficient evidence that both the stewards and WMSC found that what they did was team orders.

I don't think any team in Red Bulls situation should need a team order. If Vettel has no chance at the title due to positions he should try to help Mark. If Vettel is faster and in postion to get his title, Mark should attempt to stay #2 and help Vettel retain his lead. If by some twist Alonso is out and either can take the title, they should keep the racing clean and avoid taking each other out... again. :eek:

[Cooper_S]

Without something as blatant as what Ferrari did, they could not prove it

Blatant or not, the precedent has been set... $100,000 fine, a bargain for any team, and a steal for a top team.

Having said that, as the FIA has already agreed to review the rule anyway I doubt RBR are at risk of a fine in any case.

[Valve Bounce]

It remains to be seen whether a driver pulling over for his team mate in the absence of any communication from the team's pits constitutes team orders.

[Ari]

It remains to be seen whether a driver pulling over for his team mate in the absence of any communication from the team's pits constitutes team orders.

I think it would be hard t,o say that is team orders. Should vettel pull over to help webber that's his business, not team orders. The drivers are their own element. It does bring match fixing into focus but not team orders as the team technically has not delivered the message, well not on track anyway.... Maybe in the motorhome!

Should vettel be in a position to help webber if his wdc charge is over then that's what I would expect him to do.

[555-04Q2]

What sort of system or punishment do you propose to the teams who ask their drivers to pull over for the other when the conversation has happened in the privacy of a boardroom or team motorhome?

How can it be proved that a team order has occured?

:erm: Easy, when the team mate moves over without resistance :crazy:

[555-04Q2]

The drivers are their own element.

The drivers are part of a team, they are not their own elements. They are instructed on what to do by their team bosses. Like any employee, sometimes they listen, sometimes they don't, sometimes they whine, sometimes they don't. They are no different to you or I in the companies we work for. They just earn more and get more hot ch!cks than we do.

F1 is a team sport. The guy picking up the crap around the factory is also part of that team. We only see a small part of that team at race meetings, including the drivers.

[ShiftingGears]

The stewards only have to think that a team is using team orders in order to give said team a massive fine. With the FIA, however, it's a different matter.



What makes the alarm bells ring is when a driver is perceived unwilling to move over. See Massa. If Massa quietly let Alonso slip past in Germany before the message was repeated enough to be broadcast to the entire world, Ferrari would most probably never have copped that fine.

RBR are saying any decision by the driver to move over will be theirs alone based on information given to them. This covers them as far as team orders go.

[Valve Bounce]

I think I have raised a valid point to be honest.
So if a teammate moves over without any form of verbal prompt you think it can be deemed team orders simply because he hasn't tried to run the other guy off the road? Sorry but drivers may be part of the team but they are in a position to make calculated decisions throughout a race. If a driver cuts a corner and gains a place the likelyhood is he knows he has to concede that position without any communication from the team and if they choose to play the team game appearingly off their own back there is no grounds to prove a team order as far as I am concerned.

I'd be interested to see how you'd present your case to the WMSC if Vettel waved Webber past on lap 53 amidst a wall of silence and no hard evidence to support anything other than a driver offering a personal gesture to the benefit of his team. Drivers are part of a team as you say. :)

On the other hand, the driver in question can make a simple mistake, run a bit wide at a corner allowing his team mate to pass, but then kick up sufficient dust/dirt onto the track to make the track difficult for the next bugger coming along. Oh! it is so easy for these guys to make a mistake - and who is to say that their mistake is not genuine?

I remember this fellow Jr running into the side of the track in Singapore and nobody thought much of it until Jr spilt his guts later on. :D Oh! the web they weave to deceive. :p :

[Tazio]

Oh! the web they weave to deceive. :p : Would you describe it as "tangled, and deceitful"?

[Dave B]

I'd love to hear the reply if they radio Mark and say, "ok... so... Sebastian is faster than you. Can you confirm you understand this message?".

I can't imagine the reply would be broadcastable!

[555-04Q2]

I think I have raised a valid point to be honest.
So if a teammate moves over without any form of verbal prompt you think it can be deemed team orders simply because he hasn't tried to run the other guy off the road? Sorry but drivers may be part of the team but they are in a position to make calculated decisions throughout a race. If a driver cuts a corner and gains a place the likelyhood is he knows he has to concede that position without any communication from the team and if they choose to play the team game appearingly off their own back there is no grounds to prove a team order as far as I am concerned.

I'd be interested to see how you'd present your case to the WMSC if Vettel waved Webber past on lap 53 amidst a wall of silence and no hard evidence to support anything other than a driver offering a personal gesture to the benefit of his team. Drivers are part of a team as you say. :)

I'm pretty sure that drivers have meetings with their team principles before every race. We don't know what exactly is discussed, but we all have an good idea ;)

[AndyL]

I remember this fellow Jr running into the side of the track in Singapore and nobody thought much of it until Jr spilt his guts later on. :D Oh! the web they weave to deceive. :p :

People tend to be more suspicious when a good driver makes such a convenient mistake though ;) Just ask Michael!

[Hawkmoon]

If Ferrari had moved Massa over for Alonso in Australia this year he would have had 3 extra points and it wouldn't matter what Red Bull did because all Alonso would have to do is trail home behind them.

Pity Ferrari didn't hatch their dastardly plot to ruin F1 a little sooner than the 11th race. They'd have the championship practically sewn up by now.

[555-04Q2]

I hope you realise that is the point I am making.
Not knowing exactly what has been discussed is the vital element to getting a conviction when you don't have radio transmission to fall back on. The teams know this and will be carefull not to incriminate themselves during the race.

All this said and Mark Webber could end up getting pole on Sunday and there won't be an issue unless Alonso is following in second. :)

I get your point :up:

No need to worry about Webber, Vettel or Alonso. They will all fail to finish and Hamilton will win the WDC :p :

[airshifter]

The stewards only have to think that a team is using team orders in order to give said team a massive fine. With the FIA, however, it's a different matter.


I haven't seen any instance of the stewards handing out fines unless there is a fairly obvious team order. Even if they did a hearing with the WMSC would allow lack of such evidence to overturn such a fine.

Even in the case of the Ferrari situation, the WMSC stated that other teams probably had used orders, or they at least felt other teams may have used orders through coded radio transmissions and such. But they had not been fined by the stewards because thinking something took place usually means there is a lack of evidence to prove it.



I still don't see all the conspiracy that Red Bull has briefed the drivers to do anything. It's all speculation IMHO. I'm sure the majority of drivers on the grid would help their team mate if they were already eliminated from the title.

[markabilly]

Team orders as to Red Bull did not happen at Brazil because it did not benefit Vettel.

Indeed, it would have hurt Vettel.

And now someone must punt Freddie from the track, Fred must crunch it or his engine pop. If not, Freddie will be WORLD CHAMPION OF 2010!!!!!

Say amen, children and pass the kool aid....err......red cow piss is more fitting here :beer: :rotflmao:

[jens]

The funny thing is that in case Alonso has a slightly troubled start or a pitstop, it may be Webber, who needs to help his team-mate in the race, not the other way around! For instance imagine Vettel leading, Webber driving 4th behind two McLarens, but right ahead of Alonso. A scenario, which is not completely ruled out.

[motetarip]

The funny thing is that in case Alonso has a slightly troubled start or a pitstop, it may be Webber, who needs to help his team-mate in the race, not the other way around! For instance imagine Vettel leading, Webber driving 4th behind two McLarens, but right ahead of Alonso. A scenario, which is not completely ruled out.

I'm sure Fred is over the moon that Webber is right behind him into the first corner! RBR are probably tampering with MW's brakes as we speak..

[steveaki13]

I'm sure Fred is over the moon that Webber is right behind him into the first corner! RBR are probably tampering with MW's brakes as we speak..

;) :p

[ioan]

I guess this thread is HISTORY (wrong one) now!

[markabilly]

yep, you be right, first red bull managment gives it to fred instead of webber......

and then Ferrari managment pays the gift back and gives it to vettle...

[jens]

Team orders were always going to be a tough call for RBR, because Webber was never quite the man to safely gamble on. He cocked up in Korea and did it again in Abu Dhabi qualifying. Based on that they could have just as well hoped that Vettel's car holds together and he manages to overcome the points deficit by the end.

[Valve Bounce]

I guess this thread is HISTORY (wrong one) now!

It does show how stupid this thread really is and how the implied theory of the OP really was stupid from the start. It would have been stupid for Vettel to pull over for Mark Webber in Brazil, let alone stupid for Horner to give some secret order for Vettel to do so, as the stupid act would have stupidly handed the WDC to Alonso.

[wattoroos]

this thread was made to early because webber could have still won it at that stage and so to vettel as he proved and even hamilton closed the gap and was only slightly behind webber

[Valve Bounce]

Like I said: How stupid was that?"