Vettel. Qualifying specialist? [Archive]

Sonic

28th October 2010, 14:15

Is Sebastian in danger of getting a reputation as nothing more than a one lap specialist? I'm having trouble remembering the last time someone scored so many poles in a single season and converted so few to wins. I'm guessing perhaps Senna in the brutal Lotus Renault Turbo?

Thoughts?

UltimateDanGTR

28th October 2010, 14:20

Vettel is a great qualifier IMO.

My view is that he will go on to be one of the best ever qualifiers.

Whether he will become known as a 'qualifying only' guy is yet to be seen, But he is still young and given a few years I think his racecraft will improve.

So my prediction is that no he wont have a reputational burden of a qualifying specialist only driver, rather a very good driver who is especially good at qualifying.

Dave B

28th October 2010, 15:05

I'm having trouble remembering the last time someone scored so many poles in a single season and converted so few to wins.
Montoya in 2002? Didn't he have something like 6 or 7 poles and no wins?

Sonic

28th October 2010, 15:43

Montoya in 2002? Didn't he have something like 6 or 7 poles and no wins?

Yeah. I'd forgotten that! Vettel is in a class car however. Both examples so far (Monty and Senna) were in underdog machinery.

N4D13

28th October 2010, 15:46

Montoya in 2002? Didn't he have something like 6 or 7 poles and no wins?
7 poles, yeah.

Anyway, I think that Seb has great raw pace -and qualifying is the ultimate expression of that-, but he's usually said to lack racecraft and overtaking skills. In other words, he's very fast, but he can't make that count always.

N. Jones

28th October 2010, 16:19

Big Ben

28th October 2010, 17:07

He seemed pretty consistent in race too but his broke so many times... I don´t even know how often that happened... I think he would have had 3 more wins if not for the technical problems

Sonic

28th October 2010, 17:42

You mean, he is Jarno Trulli, part 2?
:D

Well I don't think I quite envisioned a future where we refer to a Vettel train! He's certainly not slow in race trim either but he does seem to lack race craft resulting in more bumps and scrapes than someone with the fastest car should.

fandango

28th October 2010, 21:14

Although he definitely is incredible in qualifying, I think the mistake he made in Singapore, after dominating the weekend, will haunt him if he doesn't win the championship. It was a critical moment, and he lost time, which gave Alonso the upper hand and eventually the race win.

So he seems to have a bit to go before he's as mentally strong as he needs to be.

Cooper_S

28th October 2010, 21:26

err.... Senna had about 36% more poles than wins... Vettel is in good compay.

CNR

28th October 2010, 23:06

the car has let him down
and handed 2 wins to :bigcry: Alonso :bigcry:
he would be leading the championship

keysersoze

29th October 2010, 03:23

Vettel is magic in qualifying but he is also a great race driver, too. IMO

Hawkmoon

29th October 2010, 05:39

the car has let him down
and handed 2 wins to :bigcry: Alonso :bigcry:
he would be leading the championship

He's also made is own luck. Crashing into Webber in Turkey and Button at Spa and being stupid behind the safety car in Hungary have been just as damaging to his title hopes.

The lad's certainly quick over a lap but seems to find ways of making his Sunday's difficult. A bit more experience will probably fix that.

F1boat

29th October 2010, 07:02

Sebastian is a great in qualifying and OK in race. He can do magic laps, both for pole and in clear air during the race. His trouble is overtaking. Last year he was way too cautious, and this year, when he was brave - bang, he makes a contact.

555-04Q2

29th October 2010, 07:09

the car has let him down
and handed 2 wins to :bigcry: Alonso :bigcry:
he would be leading the championship

Woulda, Coulda, Shoulda...if I was in his car I could be leading the championship :D

Big Ben

29th October 2010, 09:03

Woulda, Coulda, Shoulda...if I was in his car I could be leading the championship :D

If I were in his car i would have serious problems getting out

555-04Q2

29th October 2010, 11:41

:laugh: :up:

ioan

29th October 2010, 22:24

He certainly is the fastest out there, the unluckiest too.

Duchess

30th October 2010, 01:40

He certainly is the fastest out there, the unluckiest too.

Webber and Sutil are the unluckiest. Vettel is just inexperienced.

N. Jones

30th October 2010, 06:41

Well I don't think I quite envisioned a future where we refer to a Vettel train! He's certainly not slow in race trim either but he does seem to lack race craft resulting in more bumps and scrapes than someone with the fastest car should.

That is true, he does not hold everybody up.

Hopefully his race craft gets better.

Tazio

30th October 2010, 11:10

I think its difficult to gage whether Vettel is the fastest out there because he has a car that has had a considerable speed advantage all year. In the 17 rounds so far, the Red Bull has been on pole 14 times. When Vettel hasn't been on pole, his teammate more often than not has. I remember reading an article written in 2009 that suggested Button was the fastest qualifier in F1. I suppose he was at that time, but in hindsight thats an easy statistic to market.

I'm pretty sure if Alonso or Hamilton were driving the Red Bull, their qualifying record for 2010 would be similar. Vettel is a great talent nonetheless. :)

Very well stated!
Why don't we wait until he has a WDC or two under his belt before we "beatify" him? ;)

motetarip

30th October 2010, 13:31

We see people like Hamilton qualifying well below what the car is capable of over the race distance, so he has superior pace to people in front of him to show he can overtake. Vettel has pretty much started from the front row all season so hasn't had the chance to show us that side of his ability. He certainly has the necessary aggression. Can't say I've been too impressed so far when he doesnt have a clear track to play with. Early days though.

ioan

30th October 2010, 21:27

Webber and Sutil are the unluckiest. Vettel is just inexperienced.

:rotflmao: Good joke!

Warriwa

31st October 2010, 11:23

Sonic

31st October 2010, 12:06

Vettel's qualifying is astonishing. The reason I say this is because Webber is also a fantastic qualifyer. To beat him often is seriously impressive. Sometimes I wonder if this has not contributed to the assumtion that the Red Bull is so much faster than the other cars. Maybe both drivers are out performing the car.

I have to say it's extremely unlikely that a team could be on course to score a record number of poles in a season without the best car. Webber and Vettel are extracting the pace, no doubt, but even a demon qualifier can't overcome a poor or mediocre car - just ask Hamilton, or Trulli.

Garry Walker

31st October 2010, 12:42

Maybe both drivers are out performing the car.

No driver can outperform their car.

Sonic

31st October 2010, 17:44

No driver can outperform their car.

:up:

ioan

31st October 2010, 23:43

I have to say it's extremely unlikely that a team could be on course to score a record number of poles in a season without the best car. Webber and Vettel are extracting the pace, no doubt, but even a demon qualifier can't overcome a poor or mediocre car - just ask Hamilton, or Trulli.

Since when is Trulli a yardstick in qualifying performance?!

And what about Monaco '96 qualifying? Was the 96 Ferrari 0.5 seconds/lap (a short lap) faster than the Williams?!

Sonic

1st November 2010, 10:45

Since when is Trulli a yardstick in qualifying performance?!

And what about Monaco '96 qualifying? Was the 96 Ferrari 0.5 seconds/lap (a short lap) faster than the Williams?!

Trulli is recognized as a one lap specialist - have you been under a rock?

Specific examples don't change the facts that you can't stick a poor car on pole unless those around you don't extract the pace that their cars inherently have.

ioan

1st November 2010, 13:17

I'm sure there are many instances where an inferior car has secured pole position. The early part of 1994 being a prime example, but unless all the circumstances are analysed, its virtually impossible to convert that into stats to a drivers favour. :)

I just pointed out a clear case that contradicted sonic's theory:

...no doubt, but even a demon qualifier can't overcome a poor or mediocre car ...

No need for you to go into anti MS mode! :p

ioan

1st November 2010, 13:20

Trulli is recognized as a one lap specialist - have you been under a rock?

By whom?!
Trulli is faster in qualifying than in race, but that's all, no qualifying specialist IMO, his qualifying stats are not even close to those of the really good drivers.

Specific examples don't change the facts that you can't stick a poor car on pole unless those around you don't extract the pace that their cars inherently have.

Specific examples prove the fact that you can stick a poor car on pole, unless you can prove that the others didn't extract the best out of their cars, which you didn't prove, at least not around here. :)

wedge

1st November 2010, 15:32

Specific examples don't change the facts that you can't stick a poor car on pole unless those around you don't extract the pace that their cars inherently have.

Senna/Lotus?

Vettel is magic in qualifying but he is also a great race driver, too. IMO

Candidate for POTY

Sonic

1st November 2010, 23:23

No need for you to go into anti MS mode! :p

Eh? I Didn't bring the old timer up! ;)

ioan

1st November 2010, 23:58

Eh? I Didn't bring the old timer up! ;)

That comment was directed towards henners, it's just that I quoted you in between.

Sonic

2nd November 2010, 09:07

That comment was directed towards henners, it's just that I quoted you in between.

Fair enough.

jens

3rd November 2010, 16:07

In terms of raw pace Vettel is excellent in both qualifying and race. The difference is racecraft, which obviously has lesser impact on qualifying performances.

By whom?!
Trulli is faster in qualifying than in race, but that's all, no qualifying specialist IMO, his qualifying stats are not even close to those of the really good drivers.

I don't know, what do you mean by "qualifying stats", but if you mean the amount of pole positions, then in mostly average cars he has had at his disposal for most of his career, it would be hard to ask for more. In terms of outqualifying team-mates and maximizing car's potential he has however been at the top level.