The Blame Game

[ArrowsFA1]

With the coalition about to announce their "spending review" (cuts) this makes interesting reading - http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/oct/19/osborne-public-wrath-labour-blame-game


...the position was relatively sound until the crash struck. The coalition would prefer voters forgot about that event; they mention it only rarely. But in this era of collective short-term memory loss, it is worth reminding people that the financial crisis was not limited to those territories ruled by Gordon Brown: it was global, it was systemic and it was caused by the larcenous greed of bankers.

48% blame Labour for the financial crisis according to a Sun/YouGov poll (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3186326/Most-people-think-Osborne-cuts-are-unavoidable.html), and 60% think these cuts are unavoidable, with 46% trusting the Tories to reduce the deficit.

[Dave B]

My question is, if the government claim that this is an "inherited mess" becuase of Labour's reckless spending, then why in 2007 did George Osborne pledge to match their public spending plans for the next three years?


A Conservative government would match Labour's projected public spending totals for the next three years, shadow chancellor George Osborne has said.

He pledged two years of 2% increases. The final year total would be reviewed.

He told the BBC he wanted to see a shift in taxation from income being taxed to pollution being taxed.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6975536.stm

The "blame the previous bunch" is an easy game to play, but at no time in the last few years did the Conservatives - or the Lib Dems come to that - come up with any credible alternative to this global problem.

Now we face 490,000 public sector job losses, according to a document which was photographed yesterday. We're told that the private sector will leap in to fill the gap, but that's just a fantasy.

[ArrowsFA1]

Now we face 490,000 public sector job losses, according to a document which was photographed yesterday. We're told that the private sector will leap in to fill the gap, but that's just a fantasy.
While watching the BBC's online coverage this popped up:
In the Spectator,Fraser Nelson argues that the much-quoted figure of 500,000 public sector job losses predicted by 2015 is misleading. He says the private sector is projected to create 1.5 million jobs over the same period.

It's quite "entertaining" following http://twitter.com/search?q=%23spendingreview

[Dave B]

Following #PMQ at the moment and it's clear that many - understandably - regard the session as a joke.

[Dave B]

Hooray! The queen has graciously agreed to take a little bit less of our money. That's alright then.

[Hondo]

I would put 90% of the blame on common people that live and vote in democratic and representative countries.

Back in my younger, more idealistic days, I had occasion to chat with a former president of the local Teamsters Union. I asked him why anybody would want to belong to an organization that was tied in with organized crime and run by crooks and thieves. He answered "Hell son, everybody is a crook so you vote for the crook that will steal something for you too." There is truth to that.

The financial system got away with their nonsense because the political system allowed them to do so and were rewarded for their assistance. The political system protected itself from the voters by delivering all manner of benefit and entitlement programs to us to keep us fat, dumb, and happy. Most of all, they helped to create an environment which kept us quiet or focused on ridiculous, meaningless issues. Few of us were interested in looking behind the curtain for the truth as long as we were comfortable. Then somebody looked behind the curtain and found out all the numbers on the papers were bullcrap. At last the globalists had their global crisis. Global warming fell through, nobody bought into the swine flu pandemic and globalization will only come together when you can get the countries of the world to band together against something that threatens all of them. This isn't quite that big, but when it's all you have, you run with it. Funny thing is that a number of countries will probably withdrawal to a more national posture to cure their crisis and will be loath to assist others that don't take severe actions of their own. I think the EU is on slippery ground right now.

Anyway, everybody fell asleep at the wheel and quit paying attention to what their government was doing and how they were doing it. They didn't care. They had their medical, housing allowances, assistance for food and groceries, extra cash for breeding, more cash for being bad parents, and even more cash for stupid children. All they had to do was to vote for the guy who said he'd get them even more stuff. They didn't care who had to pay the bill. You had working people gleefully watching their acquired wealth in their 401k retirement plans double and triple in value. Most of them didn't know or care that those huge advances were due to higher corporate profits obtained by shipping jobs overseas and those evil oil company profits paying dividends on shares they owned. That is, until their job went overseas. Then they cared.

Quite frankly, we as citizens have failed in our duty to have a working knowledge of how our market, banking, and money systems work and we have failed to hold our politicians accountable. There is a political slaughter coming in the USA as a result of our elected representatives going directly against the will of their constituents. Maybe we will wake up now.

[Hondo]

You guys ought to go ahead and give the Falklands to Argentina for some sort of compensation now and appear magnanimous in the eyes of the world instead of looking whiny and pathetic when they take them away from you after the budget cuts. No carrier, no support fleet, no Falklands. I think you can count on Obama for zero assistance in taking them back.

[Steve Boyd]

Absolutely right Hondo. last time we had a Conservative government spending review one of the defence cuts was HMS Endurance the Antarctic Research Vessel. It's intinerary always included visits to Port Stanley and the Falklans population said the Argentinians would move in as soon as Endurance was retired. The UK government said that was rubbish. We now know who was right. The resulting Falklands War was pumped up by the tabloid press to be such a great enterprise that Thatcher's unpopularity was turned into a landslide victory at the next election. I'm convinced that this influenced a number of politicians, including both George Bushes & Tony Blair to believe that the way to get re-elected is to pick a fight with a small demonised country, hope that you win easily & bask in the glory. The trouble is they picked Iraq & Afganistan . . . .

[TOgoFASTER]

Don't forget Grenada.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

You guys ought to go ahead and give the Falklands to Argentina for some sort of compensation now and appear magnanimous in the eyes of the world instead of looking whiny and pathetic when they take them away from you after the budget cuts. No carrier, no support fleet, no Falklands. I think you can count on Obama for zero assistance in taking them back.

The Falklands are better protected protected now than they were in the 80s due to the simple fact that the RAF has a permenant base there now.

[Rollo]

The financial system got away with their nonsense because the political system allowed them to do so and were rewarded for their assistance.

This comment lines up with:
it was global, it was systemic and it was caused by the larcenous greed of bankers.


Quite frankly, we as citizens have failed in our duty to have a working knowledge of how our market, banking, and money systems work and we have failed to hold our politicians accountable. There is a political slaughter coming in the USA as a result of our elected representatives going directly against the will of their constituents. Maybe we will wake up now.

I don't know if we've "failed" per se, I think that we've been more disenfranchised. A banker or a businessman holds more power to change the opinions through financial backing of political parties than a whole multitude of voters.

There won't be any political slaughter coming in the USA, because after these mid-term elections, there will still be Republicrats and Democrans in office and both sets still ignoring the people.

"The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism."
- George Washington, Farewell Address, 1796.

Democracy itself has been stabbed in the guts, and is now having the **** kicked out of what's left of it by Wall St, "The City" and brown paper envelopes.
John Keane's 2009 book "The Life and Death of Democracy" is well worth a read provided you don't mind carrying round a good 1000 page brick.

[Hondo]

This comment lines up with:
it was global, it was systemic and it was caused by the larcenous greed of bankers.



I don't know if we've "failed" per se, I think that we've been more disenfranchised. A banker or a businessman holds more power to change the opinions through financial backing of political parties than a whole multitude of voters.

There won't be any political slaughter coming in the USA, because after these mid-term elections, there will still be Republicrats and Democrans in office and both sets still ignoring the people.

"The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism."
- George Washington, Farewell Address, 1796.


I'm 55 years old. I have never seen this country in the mood that it's in now. People that normally don't get "involved" are involved, no, in fact, they started the ball rolling. This may appear as a party move, but the Tea folks want every one of the career bastids thrown out, Democrat or Republican. They won't get them all but they will get a lot of them. The incumbants are avoiding pointing to their past records with pride

Bankers can buy politicians, but not their jobs. If they want to keep the job, they have to please the people. There is always the possibility of jail. There will be subpoenas flying, soon.

[TOgoFASTER]

Won't get fooled again... LOL

[Rollo]

This may appear as a party move, but the Tea folks want every one of the career bastids thrown out, Democrat or Republican. They won't get them all but they will get a lot of them.

They will get individuals, but they will be replaced.
The Tea Party hasn't set itself up as a new political party and is therefore for all intents and purposes useless if it was serious about actually effecting real change.
Once the old Democrans and Republicrats have been pulled out, new Republicrats and Democrans will take their place. Where is the actual change? Both of them were bought off a long time ago.

[Hondo]

They will get individuals, but they will be replaced.
The Tea Party hasn't set itself up as a new political party and is therefore for all intents and purposes useless if it was serious about actually effecting real change.
Once the old Democrans and Republicrats have been pulled out, new Republicrats and Democrans will take their place. Where is the actual change? Both of them were bought off a long time ago.

Perhaps our disagreement is merely based upon the cultural differences between being raised as an individual citizen with responsibilities to both self and country as opposed to being a subject of the crown. (We didn't care for that either.)

[ArrowsFA1]

This whole idea that the financial meltdown was Labour's fault has been used very effectively by the Tories, as evidenced by the YouGov poll, but it's simplistic nonsense.

The problem is that we the public are sold such simplistic nonsense via the media, which is read and watched by millions of people. Hammer away the message often enough and some people who answer polls believe it. Those polls then make headline news as "evidence" that the country supports the government. "Democracy" at work.

It's funny how the likes of the Sun, Fox news, Glenn Beck etc tend to dismiss globalisation when their employer is a prime example of globalisation at work, not democracy.

[GridGirl]

Perhaps our disagreement is merely based upon the cultural differences between being raised as an individual citizen with responsibilities to both self and country as opposed to being a subject of the crown. (We didn't care for that either.)

The crown although taking some money is basically a tourist gold mine to us as a whole. The crown only has a ceremonial role in government and policy making. Being a subject of the crown has nothing to do any disagreements.

[Rollo]

Perhaps our disagreement is merely based upon the cultural differences between being raised as an individual citizen with responsibilities to both self and country as opposed to being a subject of the crown. (We didn't care for that either.)

If you want to being responsibility into it, need I remind you that the whole Global Financial Crisis itself was caused by the US housing bubble which peaked in the US in 2006, and because of things like credit default swaps and toxic debt being shifted, the bubble burst spectacularly.
Blame for causing this mess was to do with banking practices, and people who shouldn't have been sold credit, being given it.

"Responsibilities to both self and country", my arse; by the The Crown has nothing to do with it.

[BDunnell]

It's funny how the likes of the Sun, Fox news, Glenn Beck etc tend to dismiss globalisation when their employer is a prime example of globalisation at work, not democracy.

Very wise words indeed.

[Dave B]

The IFS were quick off the mark this time: they've already analysed the review and calulated that the poor will be hit harder than the well-off.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/oct/21/spending-review-cuts-will-hit-poorest-harder-says-ifs

We're all in this together, remember :\

[race aficionado]

The problem is that we the public are sold such simplistic nonsense via the media, which is read and watched by millions of people. Hammer away the message often enough and some people who answer polls believe it. Those polls then make headline news as "evidence" that the country supports the government. "Democracy" at work.

It's funny how the likes of the Sun, Fox news, Glenn Beck etc tend to dismiss globalisation when their employer is a prime example of globalisation at work, not democracy.

Si señor!!!
Sadly true indeed.
:arrowed:

[BDunnell]

The IFS were quick off the mark this time: they've already analysed the review and calulated that the poor will be hit harder than the well-off.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/oct/21/spending-review-cuts-will-hit-poorest-harder-says-ifs

We're all in this together, remember :\

I am still to see any evidence of how it will hit George Osborne personally, for one thing.

[Hondo]

If you want to being responsibility into it, need I remind you that the whole Global Financial Crisis itself was caused by the US housing bubble which peaked in the US in 2006, and because of things like credit default swaps and toxic debt being shifted, the bubble burst spectacularly.
Blame for causing this mess was to do with banking practices, and people who shouldn't have been sold credit, being given it.

"Responsibilities to both self and country", my arse; by the The Crown has nothing to do with it.

The "Global Financial Crisis" was caused by global financial "experts" like yours buying and financing bundles of worthless paper. Just because a product is available on the market doesn't mean you have to buy it. I saw this housing thing coming apart 5 years ago when it became obvious that house prices were way too high for what was offered and when sanity returned, as it always does, people were going to be stuck with houses worth far, far less than what they had paid for them. In addition, many were financing with adjustable rate mortgages that have low initial payments which double or more in a few years.

"Responsibilities to both self and country, my arse..." sounds like a typical statement from those that think they are owed something because they were born.

[Rollo]

"Responsibilities to both self and country, my arse..." sounds like a typical statement from those that think they are owed something because they were born.

Boo hoo hoo, cry me a river.

Tell me, if the firm you work for is on the brink of failure, do you expect to get a billion dollar handout from the government and then a performance bonus? Now tell me where the consequences of "Responsibilities to both self and country" lie?

[Hondo]

So how much money have you decided everybody should make?

Boo hoo nothing! I'm not the one crying about how "unfair" everything is.

If I had spent most of my life getting direct government benefits of some sort or another I'd probably be upset that the government couldn't afford to pay for my private party anymore.

The billion dollar bailout is one of the reasons why many politicians will soon be looking for jobs. This is the first chance at changing things on Nov 2.

Maybe you should take over your banking system and stop them from buying bad paper.

[BDunnell]

I saw this housing thing coming apart 5 years ago

Well done. And what, in your wisdom, did you do about it?

[Hondo]

Well done. And what, in your wisdom, did you do about it?

Didn't play the game. I've generally been of the opinion that somewhere out there is somebody willing to take the deal you offer him. There's also many that will laugh and politely close the door but you have nothing to lose by making the presentation. It requires you to be patient and to keep your ears and eyes open. It may come from an overheard conversation at work that "...his sister's brother-in-laws cousin is trying to sell..." or a sign in a yard seen while driving down the road. In addition, I had been saving for this for some time, not wishing to be in debt for 30 years on a mortgage. Anyway, I ended up with a 2400 square foot home on 3 acres of land for $95,000. Me and the dog like it and it's paid for.

[ArrowsFA1]

Good to know that Cameron has the full backing of Murdoch (link (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11594936)).


Mr Murdoch, whose News Corporation owns the Times, the Sun and Sky News, among other media outlets, also said a free society needed an independent press
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[Dave B]

In 1981 Norman Tebbit, a bitter and bald right-winger who failed to become PM, said that his father "got on his bike and looked for work".

How times change.

Now it's the bus.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/oct/22/iain-duncan-smith-unemployed-get-on-the-bus

[Dave B]

By the way, Mr Duncan-Smith, there are 459K vacanices in the UK according to your own statistics (http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=12).

The Treasury chief secretary was stupid enough to reveal to the press that 490K jobs will be lost from the pubilc sector alone.

I'm off to get a calculator, becuase something just don't see right... :\

[GridGirl]

Didn't play the game. I've generally been of the opinion that somewhere out there is somebody willing to take the deal you offer him. There's also many that will laugh and politely close the door but you have nothing to lose by making the presentation. It requires you to be patient and to keep your ears and eyes open. It may come from an overheard conversation at work that "...his sister's brother-in-laws cousin is trying to sell..." or a sign in a yard seen while driving down the road. In addition, I had been saving for this for some time, not wishing to be in debt for 30 years on a mortgage. Anyway, I ended up with a 2400 square foot home on 3 acres of land for $95,000. Me and the dog like it and it's paid for.

I suppose that it is all fine and well for you to be mortgage free and predicting the world would be brought to its knees by US toxic mortgage debt. Using xe.com $95,000 is around approximately £60,500 at todays date. The UK's average house price during September 2010 was £166,757 as per the Nationwide building society. My house was built about a year ago and they are still building the rest of my street. You can buy a 1 bedroom flat/appartment in my street with one allocated parking space and no garden from £79,995. That's also the basic model before you put any flooring, upgrading fixtures, curtains etc. in it.

$95,000 wouldn't buy you fat lot in the UK, but you moral high horse just keeps galloping. ;) :p

[Hondo]

I don't live in the UK but at the time I bought my house, 5 years ago, average price around here for a 1500 square foot house on a tiny lot with another house 10 feet away on both sides was $ 160,000.

There's no moral high road to it, he asked me what I did and I told him. Nobody was forced to buy those financial packages but they did, hoping for the big payoff. It didn't work out. As far as government budgets go, there has been a lot of people on here, for a long time, saying that ultimately there wouldn't be enough money to cover all the programs and services and there would be hell to pay when the reckoning came.

[Hondo]

As far as government budgets go, there has been a lot of people on here, for a long time, saying that ultimately there wouldn't be enough money to cover all the programs and services and there would be hell to pay when the reckoning came.

Here's some moral high horse. Anybody with half a brain that wasn't comatose or dead should have seen these budget crunches coming, especially in the heavily socialized countries. Trying to fund social programs designed for populations half the size, lower unemployment, and a strong industrial and manufacturing base under modern conditions is ridiculous. But politicians continue to promise and people vote them in to get their share and everybody hopes the roof doesn't fall in on them.

I read about these strikes, demonstrations, and riots happening because the retirement age is getting raised, or God forbid, somebody might have to work a 40 hour week, or a benefit awarded for irresponsible behaviour has to be trimmed back or the person that brings you a beer on the airplane thinks their highly skilled position should pay more and just shake my head.

If any group of people deserve the right to strike or receive more money, it would be the farmers. And I'd love to see it. These people, the butts of hundreds of jokes, work 12 to 16 hours or more almost every day. They don't get weekends and holidays off. The farmer doesn't get "sick days". Dairy cows don't care that it's Christmas, they have to be brought in and milked. If they are lucky, the weather and other factors will come together for a few years and the farmer will make enough profit to pay off the debts from the bad years and have some left over for the family to enjoy. They might even have enough to hire someone they can trust not to tear up the equipment to come in and run the place while they take a short vacation away. The farmer doesn't have retirement per se, he operates the place until one of the kids takes it over or he sells out. Fewer kids are willing to take over the farm. They want a job working 38 hours a week, with vacation, benefits, sick days, weekends off, and $150,000 a year. Yeah, I'd like to see the farmers go on benefits for year and not grow or produce anything. They deserve the break.

[Garry Walker]

Now we face 490,000 public sector job losses, according to a document which was photographed yesterday. We're told that the private sector will leap in to fill the gap, but that's just a fantasy.

It is about time to make a little cleansing in the public sector.
I am not familiar with how it is in UK, but I have seen it in some other countries and can say with ease that half of the public sector work force could easily be dumped with no noticeable issues arising from that. If you showed the kind of productivity that I have so often seen in public sector in private sector, you would get fired after one day. Unfortunately the state has to take care of the losers and the lazy.

[Garry Walker]

I read about these strikes, demonstrations, and riots happening because the retirement age is getting raised, or God forbid, somebody might have to work a 40 hour week, or a benefit awarded for irresponsible behaviour has to be trimmed back or the person that brings you a beer on the airplane thinks their highly skilled position should pay more and just shake my head.
Strikes because you have to work 40 hours a week? :rotflmao:
I have done weeks with over 75 work hours and have survived. People have so little work ethic these days.

[Hondo]

Strikes because you have to work 40 hours a week? :rotflmao:
I have done weeks with over 75 work hours and have survived. People have so little work ethic these days.

Awhile back the French were upset because their work week was going to be expanded to 40 hours. They raised all sorts of hell.