Smoking.. [Archive] - Motorsport Forums

fandango

20th October 2010, 12:50

I like cigars, but I haven't smoked even one for more than a year or two. I don't mind smokers, but they can't control where the smoke goes, so it is a problem. And sadly, it's a problem that many smokers would be quite happy to ignore.

So if I'm in place like a bar where you can't smoke and someone is smoking I will ask them politely to stop or go away.

The other thing I don't like about smokers is how many of them just throw their butts on the ground, their cigarette butts, that is. That situation is gradually improving in places like on the beaches here in Barcelona, but it's sad that people have to be reminded and prodded with campaigns to do something that's more about basic respect.

It's funny to see young teenagers smoking to be rebellious. Giving most of your money (or any) to a huge corporation that sells you something that's not good for you while you think you're "stickin' it to the man" is nothing short of comical in this day and age.

And while I might seem like a staunch anti-smoker, I actually feel quite sorry for people who are so addicted to smoking that they leave buildings, metros and buses with their unlit cigarette already in their mouth like some kind of pathetic soother. They look so silly but they can't help it.

Sleeper

20th October 2010, 13:02

No and No, never been interested.

MrJan

20th October 2010, 13:23

And while I might seem like a staunch anti-smoker, I actually feel quite sorry for people who are so addicted to smoking that they leave buildings, metros and buses with their unlit cigarette already in their mouth like some kind of pathetic soother. They look so silly but they can't help it.

Football games amuse me now. As you leave the game there are loads of people desperately lighting fags as soon as they step outside the gat. Some even hide away during half time. If they couldn't go without having a pee for 60 minutes then they'd go to a doctor complaining that something was wrong, it's seriously not healthy to be so hooked on something that you become desperate after 1 half of a football game.

I've never smoked cigarettes but have ocassionally smoked a cigar and have been known to pass the hookah round. Strangely this means that I'm a bit hooked but never have a outlet for my craving :D

If I buy an XJ6 (possibly in the market for one at the minute) then I'll buy a pipe on general principle.....and possibly some driving gloves and a hat.

Garry Walker

23rd October 2010, 00:17

I am not a smoker, but sometimes I make an exception for these http://www.ritmeester.com/history/index.php

Very good alongside a nice bottle cognac.

BDunnell

28th October 2010, 11:30

Used to smoke when I was a student. I gave up in 2005 and have almost never partaken since.

This has been on my mind recently, having just moved to Germany where smoking bans are far from being as universal as in the UK. It is horrible to again arrive home after a trip to the pub with smoky clothes, and I do hope that a full ban is imposed here too. It does work, is healthier, and makes life more pleasant. The rights of the non-smoker should always take precedence over those of the smoker.

slorydn1

29th October 2010, 09:33

I smoke, waaaaaaayyyy too much. Some have been tempted to call me in as a condition 3 structure fire ;) :p

But, I am what I am. And I still enjoy firing up a smoke.

fandango

29th October 2010, 12:18

......The rights of the non-smoker should always take precedence over those of the smoker.

Steady on, there. You're starting to sound like a stereotypical German :)

Perhaps it should be that everyone should have the right to clean air, rather than endorsing wholesale slaughter by the clear-lunged upon seeing anyone light up.

Roamy

30th October 2010, 06:53

I used to smoke like a chimney but thank god those days are over. I smoke cigars though and the thought of a cigarette almost makes me puke. When it comes to cigars Cuba is in their own world, But short of that Nicaragua puts out some real good stuff - I think better than Dominican

Bob Riebe

1st November 2010, 01:20

Camel Straights were the best of the bunch, when I smoked cigarettes.

I used to smoke then chew Swisher Sweets, but one day when I chewed on one when I had the flue, I got so sick, I was instantly cured forever, but I still get the urge to buy a pack of Camel Straights every now and then.

The little cone shaped cigarettes from the sub-continent were also quite good.

markabilly

1st November 2010, 04:46

I smoked but i never inhaled.....

and of course dunnell is right, the rights of non-smokers should always prevail over the rights of smokers to kill themselves.

Much like everyone has the right to kill themselves provided they do not splatter their brains on other folks less sucidial...

cleaning the clothes after such splatter is just like after being in the bar with a bunch of smokers, cleaning can be really time consuming and sometimes it just does not all come out

So smoke 'em if you got 'em

Bolton Midnight

15th November 2010, 17:37

Aye 20 a day, keeping everyone's income tax down, health service going etc

Shame about the pubs, just means I stay in more hence why so many pubs are closing down.

Odd when Germany is a free-er country than the UK

Anyone that didn't like passive smoking yet still chose to go out to smokey pubs must have been a complete idiot. Same with kids, don't take them where there's likely to be folk smoking, even as a smoker myself I seem to manage to keep my bairns away from smokers, maybe I'm not a pompous idiot though.......

BDunnell

15th November 2010, 17:57

Odd when Germany is a free-er country than the UK

Why?

Anyone that didn't like passive smoking yet still chose to go out to smokey pubs must have been a complete idiot. Same with kids, don't take them where there's likely to be folk smoking, even as a smoker myself I seem to manage to keep my bairns away from smokers, maybe I'm not a pompous idiot though.......

Give me one good reason why people should be forced to inhale smoke, with all its inherent and proven dangers to health, in a pub. 'Because people like to smoke in pubs' isn't anywhere near good enough, by the way. What, in your considered opinion, makes the right of someone who wishes to inhale toxic fumes to do so superior to the right of those who do not wish to do so to avoid being forced to inhale said fumes?

Bolton Midnight

15th November 2010, 18:17

Why?

Give me one good reason why people should be forced to inhale smoke, with all its inherent and proven dangers to health, in a pub. 'Because people like to smoke in pubs' isn't anywhere near good enough, by the way. What, in your considered opinion, makes the right of someone who wishes to inhale toxic fumes to do so superior to the right of those who do not wish to do so to avoid being forced to inhale said fumes?

Germany not famed for it's 'do as you please attitude' - orders which must be obeyed etc

So you were forced into these pubs were you, was it at gunpoint or had the landlord kidnapped your family?

Daniel

15th November 2010, 19:44

Lol. More Bolton midnight wisdom.....

BDunnell

15th November 2010, 20:10

Germany not famed for it's 'do as you please attitude' - orders which must be obeyed etc

What relevance does that have to anything in the past 65 years?

So you were forced into these pubs were you, was it at gunpoint or had the landlord kidnapped your family?

That is one of the most rubbish answers to a question ever provided on these forums.

Garry Walker

15th November 2010, 21:50

That is one of the most rubbish answers to a question ever provided on these forums.

For once we agree

Garry Walker

15th November 2010, 21:51

maybe I'm not a pompous idiot though.......

Too easy, too easy.

Ghostwalker

15th November 2010, 22:11

Germany not famed for it's 'do as you please attitude' - orders which must be obeyed etc

So you were forced into these pubs were you, was it at gunpoint or had the landlord kidnapped your family?

you could say the same about the smokers. Nobody forced them to go out to the pubs...

MrJan

15th November 2010, 23:01

Germany not famed for it's 'do as you please attitude' - orders which must be obeyed etc

So you were forced into these pubs were you, was it at gunpoint or had the landlord kidnapped your family?

If I enjoyed taking a **** on your clothes, while in a pub, then would you hold the same opinion?

Bob Riebe

15th November 2010, 23:21

you could say the same about the smokers. Nobody forced them to go out to the pubs...
Then a law should be passed to make non-smoking illegal; your analogy is bogus.

Bob Riebe

15th November 2010, 23:22

If I enjoyed taking a **** on your clothes, while in a pub, then would you hold the same opinion?
As long as you did not mind my sticking my fist in your face; these analogies are asininely moronic.

MrJan

15th November 2010, 23:26

these analogies are asininely moronic.

No more so than smoking ;) I was never actually anti-smoking, nor cared that much about smoking in pubs, but the righteous indignation of smokers since the ban came in has actually changed my opinion.

What reason can you give for being allowed to smoke in pubs?

Bob Riebe

15th November 2010, 23:50

No more so than smoking ;) I was never actually anti-smoking, nor cared that much about smoking in pubs, but the righteous indignation of smokers since the ban came in has actually changed my opinion.

What reason can you give for being allowed to smoke in pubs?

IN the U.S.- it would be called the bill of rights- freedom to choose.
Freedom to choose for the bar owner, and freedom to choose not to, or to, go in an establishment where it is allowed, along with freedom not to hire or fire an employee who has self-righteous snit-fits about smoking.

The smoking ban shows the book 1984 was only off by a few decades.

Big brother in the U.S., is making the freedom to fail (same as freedom to make bad choices) illegal, for one party or another, either contrary to the constitution.
I used to think biker gangs people were becoming bad people, who made their own laws, compared to the U.S. government, throwing in with the bkers would be the lessor or two evils.

Bolton Midnight

16th November 2010, 00:23

I chose to smoke, I chose to go to the pub; exactly the same as you chose to go out to the pub and chuck poison down your neck, see?

Let the landlord choose, let the drinker choose, let the smoker choose.

Some of us are grown ups who are quite capable of making our own choices without a Nanny State doing it for us.

Booze is far more costly and harmful, so why not ban that too or is it only right when it infringes on other people's freedoms?

In a truly free society smoking would not be banned.

ShiftingGears

16th November 2010, 00:33

I stand by my right to carry my trusty bag of weapons-grade plutonium into a public area...

Bolton Midnight

16th November 2010, 00:42

Is that proven to kill folk like booze is or is it unproven like passive smoking?

But yes why not, open a bar and say you'll have your uranium there with you and let the others decide if they want to enter it.

ShiftingGears

16th November 2010, 00:51

Is that proven to kill folk like booze is or is it unproven like passive smoking?

No, it is entirely safe and non-toxic, just like all forms of smoking. Why else would I carry it around with me?

Bolton Midnight

16th November 2010, 00:54

Daniel

16th November 2010, 07:06

Don't know but if it keeps you happy and doesn't harm others then why not, not like anybody is actually forced to stand alongside it is it? Unlike these nasty pubs who used to force folk to chuck poison down their throats whilst the nasty smokers reduced their tax liability and made their clothes smell a bit.

ROFL. You're questioning whether passive smoking is dangerous or not? It's dinosaur's like yourself that make me ashamed to live in the UK.......

I have a friend back in Australia who smokes. Whenever we were in his car he smoked but was happy for me to have the window open a crack so as to create enough of an air current which meant I either didn't smell any smoke or that the effect on me was miniscule. When we were in my car he didn't smoke.

You should be ashamed of yourself, you're 40 and you sound like a teenager whose parents have fed them a whole load of lies and misinformation about the world before they've had the chance to go out into the real world and find out for themselves.

MrJan

16th November 2010, 08:15

Some of us are grown ups who are quite capable of making our own choices without a Nanny State doing it for us.

I'm not convinced that you are that grown up. "Whhhaaaaa whaaaa, Mummy they won't let me smoke in a bar, I have to go out in the coldy, whaaaaa whaaaaaaaa". FFS get a grip man.

My issue with smoking isn't about passive smoke, it's about the fact that it makes you stink. Other people drinking doesn't do anything to me at all, other people smoking makes me smell like a tramp. Pubs are specifically for drinking, smoking was only ever a sideshow.

Interesting though that the only reason FOR smoking in pubs is "we should be allowed to do what we want". How very teenagery.

BDunnell

16th November 2010, 10:50

As long as you did not mind my sticking my fist in your face; these analogies are asininely moronic.

So you believe that smoking should be allowed absolutely anywhere? Kindergartens, maybe?

For once, it needs saying that your arguments are asininely moronic.

BDunnell

16th November 2010, 10:52

IN the U.S.- it would be called the bill of rights- freedom to choose.
Freedom to choose for the bar owner, and freedom to choose not to, or to, go in an establishment where it is allowed, along with freedom not to hire or fire an employee who has self-righteous snit-fits about smoking.

Self-righteous 'snit-fits' (what is one of those?) about possibly getting lung cancer from passive smoking, then?

And why just bars? 'Because it's always been the case that one can smoke in bars' is not a good enough answer. As I said, why not anywhere? Teachers in classrooms? People in hospital wards? The arguments are no different to those relating to bars.

BDunnell

16th November 2010, 10:55

Pubs are specifically for drinking, smoking was only ever a sideshow.

Precisely.

Interesting though that the only reason FOR smoking in pubs is "we should be allowed to do what we want". How very teenagery.

Apart from for right-wing Americans, who believe that being prevented from doing so is an infringement of one's rights possibly more significant than not being allowed to vote.

Ghostwalker

16th November 2010, 11:19

Then a law should be passed to make non-smoking illegal; your analogy is bogus.

no its not.

You said yourself that you choose to goto the pub.
And by choosing to go to the pub you choose to go to a non-smoking area.

Why should pubs only be for smokers?

BDunnell

16th November 2010, 11:20

no its not.

You said yourself that you choose to goto the pub.
And by choosing to go to the pub you choose to go to a non-smoking area.

Why should pubs only be for smokers?

The argument appears to be 'because they always have been'. Not really sufficient justification.

Bob Riebe

16th November 2010, 11:43

The argument appears to be 'because they always have been'. Not really sufficient justification.
Non-smokers can go to bars in the U.S., they just have to put their arrogant self-serving narcissistic whining in their back pockets; at least in some areas.

I am sure that if non-smoking paid, there would have been so many non-smoking bars such big-brother laws would not exist.

BDunnell

16th November 2010, 11:51

Non-smokers can go to bars in the U.S., they just have to put their arrogant self-serving narcissistic whining in their back pockets; at least in some areas.

Why is it, in your opinion, 'self-serving narcissistic whining' on the part of non-smokers to not wish to breathe in toxic smoke, while the same does not apply to smokers who wish to do likewise? What gives one such moral superiority in your eyes?

I am sure that if non-smoking paid, there would have been so many non-smoking bars such big-brother laws would not exist.

There does not appear to have been widespread damage to pub attendance in the UK as a result of the smoking ban.

Malbec

16th November 2010, 12:34

There does not appear to have been widespread damage to pub attendance in the UK as a result of the smoking ban.

Quite the opposite in fact, pubs and bars have found that they've attracted more customers since the smoking ban. It says a lot that pubs and bars are not joining smokers groups in calling for the ban to be rescinded.

BDunnell

16th November 2010, 12:36

Quite the opposite in fact, pubs and bars have found that they've attracted more customers since the smoking ban. It says a lot that pubs and bars are not joining smokers groups in calling for the ban to be rescinded.

And the smokers now forced to huddle outside have not been seen to hold placards protesting against a violation of their fundamental freedoms (possibly also through smokers not automatically being morons), so I'd say a perfectly good balance has been struck — one other countries would do well to follow.

schmenke

16th November 2010, 15:25

Quite the opposite in fact, pubs and bars have found that they've attracted more customers since the smoking ban. ....

Same here. When legislation was passed in this province a few years ago, much broohaha was voiced by bar/pub/restaurant owners, but profitability of these establishments has not changed at all. In fact, I'd hazard a guess that it has increased here too.

Bob Riebe

16th November 2010, 16:57

Why is it, in your opinion, 'self-serving narcissistic whining' on the part of non-smokers to not wish to breathe in toxic smoke, while the same does not apply to smokers who wish to do likewise? What gives one such moral superiority in your eyes?

If they do not like it they can go somewhere else, where there is no smoking.

Bob Riebe

16th November 2010, 16:59

MrJan

16th November 2010, 17:11

If they do not like it they can go somewhere else, where there is no smoking.

If you don't like it you can go somewhere else, where there is smoking.....like outside the pub.

Bob Riebe

16th November 2010, 17:24

If you don't like it you can go somewhere else, where there is smoking.....like outside the pub.
Not when the laws ban it; try again, your rhetoric is inept.

Glad you are not afraid to admit you are a self-centered narcissist.

You could drink outside the pub.

Of course liberals rely on whiny people like you to stay in office.

BDunnell

16th November 2010, 17:29

Not when the laws ban it; try again, your rhetoric is inept.

Please, please, please put on a new record. I hope the moderators don't mind me saying that I'm sure I'm not the only one here who's a bit sick of reading endless posts by you in which you choose to disengage completely from a perfectly reasonable discussion topic in such a pompous and high-handed way, simply because you disagree with a response. You are, with respect, not such a great intellect as to have earned the right to do so. Grow up.

Daniel

16th November 2010, 17:57

BDunnell

16th November 2010, 18:13

Yes but he's still a step or three above Bolton Midnight :)

So is virtually anyone.

fandango

16th November 2010, 18:26

It would be great if everyone could just do exactly what they please, but it just doesn't work that way, not with smoking, not with lots of things. That's why laws and courts etc exist. And that's why they made smoking illegal in bars in some countries.

It's all very well to say "let people choose where to go, and let them go to non-smoking bars if that's what they want", but that puts a health decision in the hands of the market, as the existence of non-smoking bars then depends on their profitability. And people are hooked on smokes, so any group of friends with a choice ends up going to the smoking bar, same way you don't bring your vegetarian friends to a steakhouse.

I prefer the idea of the government making informed decisions, not leaving everything at the mercy of the market. Perhaps Bob would consider me a whining narcissist liberal, but I have the freedom to be one, and I don't owe that freedom to market forces.

I have little sympathy for moaning smokers, and even less now that they litter the streets with their butts: Now that they are forced to smoke outside they seem to think it's fine to just toss the ends wherever they want. I'm generalising, obviously but smokers seem to have no responsibility regarding the effects of their actions as soon as they light up. I mean, how can they not see an anti-litter based street smoking ban coming?

On another note, I was midly horrified last week when, on a routine medical check, the doctor said I have the lungs of a light smoker, as a result of living in a big city. He said pollution affects some more than others. So much for clean air!

BDunnell

16th November 2010, 18:36

Or perhaps smokers can leave their pints on the bar and pop out to the nicely heated smoking area's found in many British pubs and have a smoke in the fresh air whilst not bothering anybody with their anti-social habit?

Not 'nicely heated', in my opinion! Patio heaters are a horrible thing.

Daniel

16th November 2010, 18:39

The fact is a lot of smokers tend agree with the smoking ban as well.

MrJan

16th November 2010, 18:41

Not when the laws ban it; try again, your rhetoric is inept.

I can't really see what you're trying to say here. The laws haven't banned smoking outside, not over here at least. As Henners said, most pubs have a smoking area that is covered and has outdoor heaters.

Have you come up with a decent reason why you should be allowed to smoke in a pub yet?

BDunnell

16th November 2010, 18:42

The fact is a lot of smokers tend agree with the smoking ban as well.

Naturally, because any sensible smoker knows they ought to quit.

Malbec

16th November 2010, 19:05

Glad you are not afraid to admit you are a self-centered narcissist.

Bob be careful using psychoanalytical terms especially when they are wrong.

Also, and don't take this as a criticism but in the spirit intended, please be aware that your obsession with the perceived misuse of power gives away quite a bit about your personal relations during your upbringing. If you are aware and don't mind then obviously ignore this post. I don't mean to offend either.

Bob Riebe

16th November 2010, 19:29

Please, please, please put on a new record. I hope the moderators don't mind me saying that I'm sure I'm not the only one here who's a bit sick of reading endless posts by you in which you choose to disengage completely from a perfectly reasonable discussion topic in such a pompous and high-handed way, simply because you disagree with a response. You are, with respect, not such a great intellect as to have earned the right to do so. Grow up.
If you think Yeo's posts are perfectly reasonable then your arrogance is only exceeded by your ignorance.

If you do not like my posts- do not read them.

If course narcissists seem to run in herds so you have plenty of people here in your mutual admiration society, which usually means your rhetoric is vacuous, so you simply engage in patting each other on the back.

Cheers.

BDunnell

16th November 2010, 19:42

If you think Yeo's posts are perfectly reasonable then your arrogance is only exceeded by your ignorance.

If you do not like my posts- do not read them.

If course narcissists seem to run in herds so you have plenty of people here in your mutual admiration society, which usually means your rhetoric is vacuous, so you simply engage in patting each other on the back.

Cheers.

Bob, I honestly think you are exhibiting signs of a personality disorder in your posts.

Mark in Oshawa

16th November 2010, 20:10

Quite the opposite in fact, pubs and bars have found that they've attracted more customers since the smoking ban. It says a lot that pubs and bars are not joining smokers groups in calling for the ban to be rescinded.

When the bans came to this part of the world, the refrain was it would kill a lot of bars and pubs. I dunno, I keep seeing pubs come and go, and many stick around. I don't see a lot of empty ones. I guess the world continued on its axis. I do know I enjoy pubs and restaurants a hell of a lot more now that I don't have to deal with the smoke.

When In the US, I went into restaurants and pubs who had smoking and it reminded me how stupid it all is.

Bob Riebe, I agree with you in principle it should be up to the bar owners, but ya know what? They are idiots if they didn't ban it collectively. Eating or drinking is a hell of a lot more enjoyable if you don't have to gasp for air....

Bob Riebe

16th November 2010, 20:42

Bob, I honestly think you are exhibiting signs of a personality disorder in your posts.
Well good for you; now, tell me something that I am supposed to care about.

Bob Riebe

16th November 2010, 20:44

Theres been a healthy debate here so far and questions posed to you which you have chosen to not answer. If your only method of response is to get personal with people who disagree with you, then its clear you are out of your depth on this topic.

Questions? Which ones?
I suppose, I answered and you did not like them.
Don't like it, don't read it.

It seems you said- " ...when I stroll down to my local pub for a pint, I want to enjoy a drink.."- if you own it, you have a point, if you do not, it is not yours.

Daniel

16th November 2010, 20:46

Questions? Which ones?
I suppose, I answered and you did not like them.
Don't like it, don't read it.
How can someone who is so "loud" with their whining claim that others have the choice not to read their comments? As my year 5 teacher used to say "Empty vessels make the most noise"

Bob Riebe

16th November 2010, 20:51

Bob be careful using psychoanalytical terms especially when they are wrong.

nar·cis·sism noun \ˈnär-sə-ˌsi-zəm\
Definition of NARCISSISM
1
: egoism, egocentrism

To paraphrase a movie line- BEEEHHH, guess again.

Bob Riebe

16th November 2010, 20:54

How can someone who is so "loud" with their whining claim that others have the choice not to read their comments? As my year 5 teacher used to say "Empty vessels make the most noise"

Try again, but don't worry, you are still a legend in your own mind.

Malbec

16th November 2010, 21:03

nar·cis·sism noun \ˈnär-sə-ˌsi-zəm\
Definition of NARCISSISM
1
: egoism, egocentrism

To paraphrase a movie line- BEEEHHH, guess again.

Be aware that all human beings are by definition narcissistic.

BDunnell

16th November 2010, 21:03

Nurse!

Daniel

16th November 2010, 21:04

Try again, but don't worry, you are still a legend in your own mind.

What an ironic post.....

BDunnell

16th November 2010, 21:08

What an ironic post.....

(Daniel, you may have to explain the concept of irony here.)

Bob Riebe

16th November 2010, 21:09

When the bans came to this part of the world, the refrain was it would kill a lot of bars and pubs. I dunno, I keep seeing pubs come and go, and many stick around. I don't see a lot of empty ones. I guess the world continued on its axis. I do know I enjoy pubs and restaurants a hell of a lot more now that I don't have to deal with the smoke.

When In the US, I went into restaurants and pubs who had smoking and it reminded me how stupid it all is.

Bob Riebe, I agree with you in principle it should be up to the bar owners, but ya know what? They are idiots if they didn't ban it collectively. Eating or drinking is a hell of a lot more enjoyable if you don't have to gasp for air....
Here the bars were the ones targeted by the ban, because they did not serve food, they did not have to have a non-smoking area, although several did anyway.
Some for profit bars have closed their doors, but oddly, Legion, and VFW charity events, are what have suffered the worst.

That was just the start as now some are now considering laws to stop one from smoking in ones own home, etc.
The attack on some food products has already started and you know as well as I, this is only the beginning. Once the Feds, get a foot in the door they would rather burn the house down, than give in to peoples rights.

I have not smoked anything, or even chewed cigars, in thirty years but the places that had signs banning cigar and pipes, but not cigarettes, exhibited asinine hypocrisy- unfettered.

Daniel

16th November 2010, 21:09

(Daniel, you may have to explain the concept of irony here.)
Jne9t8sHpUc

Sorry :p Had to be done :p

Bob Riebe

16th November 2010, 21:12

What an ironic post.....

I do not attack, other posters you and you the other glauistean wannabes are the ones that do, keep on trolling.

Your rhetoric is vacuous but mainly boring.
Fini

Daniel

16th November 2010, 21:13

I do not attack, other posters you and you the other glauistean wannabes are the ones that do, keep on trolling.

Your rhetoric is vacuous but mainly boring.
Fini
So basically yellow trout follow keyboard egg floorboard glass eye Hitler boobs?

Edit: For those who don't get my point (Bob, I'm looking at you), I'm suggesting that when someone has shown you up you just start spouting off crap which really has little meaning given the content of this thread.

Bob Riebe

16th November 2010, 21:13

(Daniel, you may have to explain the concept of irony here.)
If you are that obtuse, I can do it for you.
Fini

BDunnell

16th November 2010, 21:14

I do not attack, other posters you and you the other glauistean wannabes are the ones that do, keep on trolling.

Your rhetoric is vacuous but mainly boring.
Fini

*BUZZ*

Repetition of trolling, rhetoric, vacuous...

What an... er, 'remarkable' display we have been treated to.

BDunnell

16th November 2010, 21:15

If you are that obtuse, I can do it for you.
Fini

Not obtuse, just more familiar with the concept than a right-wing American tends to be. Possibly more, shall we say, stable, too.

Daniel

16th November 2010, 21:15

*BUZZ*

Repetition of trolling, rhetoric, vacuous...

What an... er, 'remarkable' display we have been treated to.
Bah Ben! Such vacuous rhetoric as yours can at best be considered as trolling. She sells sea shells by the sea shore. Stop being obtuse!

BDunnell

16th November 2010, 21:19

Daniel

16th November 2010, 21:21

It wasn't a case of not liking your answers, it was more a case of them being very selfish, and not making any logical sense.

So what makes a smokers stance about wanting to smoke in a bar because its their choice more superior than a non smoker who wants to enjoy a drink in a bar without harmful smoke?

One choice harms the other party without their permission and the other choice makes it inconvenient for the party who can't do something they wish to do.

Its all as well saying to non smokers that they don't have to go to the pub, but what about the notion that maybe smokers could stay at home and smoke in their own homes if they are too arrogant to step outside for 5 minutes to enjoy their smoke?

Stop being such a vacuous troll!

Bob Riebe

16th November 2010, 21:23

*BUZZ*

Repetition of trolling, rhetoric, vacuous...

What an... er, 'remarkable' display we have been treated to.
You are; therefore I do. You make it so easy, as you are so one dimensional, at the same time, as you seem to be paying so much attention to what I write, is your life that shallow and boring?

I disobeyed my own final post sign-off, but but between you and glauistean, it is so much fun at times.
Now, I am done with answering you.
Sleep well.

Malbec

16th November 2010, 21:24

It wasn't a case of not liking your answers, it was more a case of them being very selfish, and not making any logical sense.

In Bob's mind it isn't about the logic, its about the misuse of power by whoever that gets his goat.

That said if his description of his local smoking ban is accurate that would suggest that his state has exercised the ban in a poor manner and he would have legitimate grounds for complaint. Unfortunately he isn't able to differentiate between his own local smoking ban and other bans in force around the world.

Daniel

16th November 2010, 21:25

I know I am, but what are you? I'm going to get my mommy onto you. <insert personal attack phrased as a question here>?

I realised long ago that I was wrong but kept on going on like a pillock because that's the person I am.
Sleep well donkey turkey hybrid bicycle.

Edited for accuracy.

Daniel

16th November 2010, 21:26

Bob Riebe

16th November 2010, 21:38

Bob Riebe

16th November 2010, 21:49

In Bob's mind it isn't about the logic, its about the misuse of power by whoever that gets his goat.

That said if his description of his local smoking ban is accurate that would suggest that his state has exercised the ban in a poor manner and he would have legitimate grounds for complaint. Unfortunately he isn't able to differentiate between his own local smoking ban and other bans in force around the world.This is the first thread of the topic
Do you currently smoke? Have you ever smoked?
For purposes of this thread let's limit to cigarettes and cigars..
Personally am a cigar smoker, but not very often

I addressed the smoking ban in my area, as I said.
I did not see anything in the thread topic stating this thread is about the smoking ban in are X.
Who cannot differentiate?

Dunnell's said this about smoking bans- "Give me one good reason why people should be forced to inhale smoke, with all its inherent and proven dangers to health, in a pub. 'Because people like to smoke in pubs' isn't anywhere near good enough, by the way. What, in your considered opinion, makes the right of someone who wishes to inhale toxic fumes to do so superior to the right of those who do not wish to do so to avoid being forced to inhale said fumes?

The simple fact was here, and I WOULD assume most places NO ONE was forced to inhale smoke.
They did not grab them at the door and force them to go in under threat.

If they did not like they could go where there was not smoke.
Dunnell's self-righteous attitude implies his opinion supersedes that of others, i.e. his rights over-ride that of those any and all who do not agree with him.

Malbec

16th November 2010, 21:51

This is the first thread of the topic
Do you currently smoke? Have you ever smoked?
For purposes of this thread let's limit to cigarettes and cigars..
Personally am a cigar smoker, but not very often

I addressed the smoking ban in my area, as I said.
I did not see anything in the thread topic stating this thread is about the smoking ban in are X.
Who cannot differentiate?

I have no issue with your response to the opening post.

Your arguments regarding the effect of the smoking ban on bars and such have been shown to be false in the UK, yet if what you describe is accurate in your local area then it is true where you live. I am not contradicting what you wrote, merely clarifying it for the others.

I am surprised that you feel it necessary however to try and put me down for doing that. Time to take a step back and calm down perhaps?

Bob Riebe

16th November 2010, 21:54

I have no issue with your response to the opening post.

Your arguments regarding the effect of the smoking ban on bars and such have been shown to be false in the UK, yet if what you describe is accurate in your local area then it is true where you live. I am not contradicting what you wrote, merely clarifying it for the others.

I am surprised that you feel it necessary however to try and put me down for doing that. Time to take a step back and calm down perhaps?
To you I apologize, I just lumped you in with the other two glauistean wannabes.
My regrets.
Bob

Malbec

16th November 2010, 21:54

The simple fact was here, and I WOULD assume most places NO ONE was forced to inhale smoke.
They did not grab them at the door and force them to go in under threat.

If they did not like they could go where there was not smoke.
Dunnell's self-righteous attitude implies his opinion supersedes that of others, i.e. his rights over-ride that of those any and all who do not agree with him.

Again the issue here for you is about power and its misuse. Perhaps you would be better served wondering what it is about the abuse of power and self righteous people that really pisses you off.

Bob Riebe

16th November 2010, 21:58

Again the issue here for you is about power and its misuse. Perhaps you would be better served wondering what it is about the abuse of power and self righteous people that really pisses you off.

I do not have to wonder.
If you are going to be telling someone to be aware of a words meaning, perhaps you should check if you are informed first.
Fini.

BDunnell

16th November 2010, 23:45

I do not have to wonder.
If you are going to be telling someone to be aware of a words meaning, perhaps you should check if you are informed first.
Fini.

A word's meaning. Perhaps you should check if you are informed as to proper grammar before you post.

Nonetheless, I've still been enjoying the show. Do view my post earlier as an intervention. As I said, remarkable. I feel we have learned a lot about you from this discussion.

Bob Riebe

17th November 2010, 05:55

A word's meaning. Perhaps you should check if you are informed as to proper grammar before you post.

Nonetheless, I've still been enjoying the show. Do view my post earlier as an intervention. As I said, remarkable. I feel we have learned a lot about you from this discussion.
OOOOOH, I forgot the apostrophe, as Count Floyd would say- "that's really scary boys and girls."

As for the last part, well good for you; whereas this from the complaints thread- "I complain loads, often in extremely pompous terms." has taught us much about you.

Bob Riebe

17th November 2010, 05:56

Roamy

17th November 2010, 06:05

MrJan

17th November 2010, 08:32

Questions? Which ones?
I suppose, I answered and you did not like them.

I asked if you had come up with a reason why you should be allowed to smoke in pubs. If you gave an answer (beyond that "freedom" bull****) then I missed it, sorry.

Bob, I honestly think you are exhibiting signs of a personality disorder in your posts.

Really?! I thought that he was exhibiting signs of being a bit of a bellend in his posts. The fact that Roamy said "I really have no problem with the law as smoking can be offensive." shows just how loco Bob is. Even Roamy thinks that the smoking ban is reasonable ffs.

I like Bob though, he's one of the most amazing posters that we've had since Wade was jumping around on cars. I think my favourite bit was when he called me a narcissist, simultaneously being wonderfully ironic and completely mis-reading me.

BDunnell

17th November 2010, 15:54

Well I smoke cigars frequently. It is now banned in all public places, but you can smoke within 25 feet of the door - so in the winter if they heat outside with one of those propane heaters it is fine. Some of the finer places are now installing smoking rooms and are doing quite well. The other option is cigar clubs which are popping up. Some of the better cigar shops now have a wine room.. They can't sell wine but you can bring it. I really have no problem with the law as smoking can be offensive. With that being said - when someone challenges me outside when I am in a proper area I go off like a warthog on a Afghan camp!

Now, a cigar club with a wine room I would go to out of choice!

BDunnell

17th November 2010, 15:56

I like Bob though, he's one of the most amazing posters that we've had since Wade was jumping around on cars.

They could be one and the same person, suffering from a very severe case of split personality.

Mark in Oshawa

17th November 2010, 20:18

In Germany, as I think I mentioned earlier, it is still not banned everywhere, and I had forgotten how unpleasant it was to come home from an evening in the pub with my clothes smelling of smoke. Now, if I want to go to a pub of the sort I prefer — i.e. not a 'trendy' bar or similar — I have to put up with the smoking. It doesn't stop me going, but the whole thing would be far more pleasant without smoke.

Sorry for my narcissistic, asinine and possibly anti-freedom whining.

Ben, I think Bob has not always made his point in the manner I would. I do agree with him in the sense no one made us go to bars when there was smoking in them; that said, I am more inclined to go now. I think in a sense, restaurant and bar owners missed the boat by maybe not making their establishments non smoking on their own.

I am torn on this one. I get where Bob is going, that any time the state starts dictating what a bar owner can do or not do on something that is a legal product, I am troubled by the principle of freedom being violated. That said, smoking is a destructive habit that is proven to be bad for you in the long run for the most part. So I can easily see both sides of the argument.

I just know for me, I don't want to deal with it. If bar owners and the like were more proactive years ago, the bans wouldn't have been brought forward likely. We restrict the age of people in bars in North America ( Europe is more liberal on drinking and the age of admission) so if we are going to do THAT, then the principle of just saying no smoking is more or less in line with that drawing the line somewhere. That said, as Bob did accurately point out, no one made us go. If a bar made me smell like an ashtray, I quit going....and they lost my business.

oh ya..someone said Bob could be Wade? No...Bob has a point if you choose to look for it, and he can spell.

Mark in Oshawa

17th November 2010, 20:45

I think its worth mentioning that the smoking ban in the UK covers all enclosed public spaces and that includes all businesses where the public are able to go. This applies to garages, works vehicles, works canteens, shopping centres, offices, train/bus stations etc etc.

A 'pub' in the UK is a public house and when publicans/landlords apply for a LIC8(pub) license they commit to opening a premises to the general public, which means this law applies to them. The law was passed on health grounds in an attempt to clean up public areas for people who do not wish to breath something against their will. The fact we spend close to £2 billion every year on the NHS for smoking related illnesses highlights why the law was introduced. Sitting in a pub drinking yourself stupid and possibly contributing to liver failure is a choice of the individual. Sitting in a pub smoking and filling the room with smoke affects everyone in the room, not just the smoker. Theres a clear difference to the earlier arguement.

The ban has not affected the pub trade as a whole since 1st July 2007, and the majority of smokers I have spoken to have no problem stepping outside for a smoke. Theres also the opinion that when the smoker smokes outside, they too don't smell like an ashtray when they return to the clear atmosphere of the pub. Its all good.. :)

In the end, you crystalize perfectly why a individual rights guy like me can live with the ban.....Great post!

steve_spackman

19th November 2010, 03:09

I stopped smoking 3 months ago....feel better health wise and also wallet wise. Best thing i ever did to be honest

Bolton Midnight

19th November 2010, 17:57

Seems to work since the ban came in in 2007.

I have no problem with people who want to smoke themselves into an early grave, but when I stroll down to my local pub for a pint, I want to enjoy a drink and a laugh in an atmosphere where its not thick with other peoples smoke. Smoking is a choice but breathing it in passively is not. Why should I have to avoid a social place like a pub simply because of others who really don't care what they are doing to other people? Smokers and non smokers can visit a pub in the UK and there are environments that cater for both. Theres no problem. Its not taking away people cival liberties, its making the atmosphere more pleasant for the majority. Pubs here have acquired more custom because the majority of people who don't smoke now see a Pub as a nice place to go.

A good example of passive smoking is a guy called Roy Castle who appeared on TV here throughout the 70's, 80's and early 90's. He was a club entertainer for many years and died of lung cancer in 1994. The guy had never smoked a cigarette in his life but when he died they found his lungs were as black as smokers who had been in the habit for 40+ years. It was thought that his trumpet playing and deep breaths during singing meant he inhaled large quantities of smoke over his career. Passive smoking does kill and quite frankly anybody who claims otherwise doesn't have the intellect to qualify for anything other than sitting at a bar all day spending their benefits. :)

Apart from all the pubs that have shut, how has the ban helped them oh wise one? Pubs have not got busier they have shut down.

They back tracked re Roy Castle by the way.

Oh and it's civil enjoy your benefits.

So is virtually anyone.

Hark at Oscar Wilde here, such rapier like wit

Have you come up with a decent reason why you should be allowed to smoke in a pub yet?

Have you re drinking? Nope, thought not, ban it.

so you simply engage in patting each other on the back.

Aye noticed that, assumed it's one person with two log-ins, either that or they are seriously into each other.

Theres been a healthy debate here so far and questions posed to you which you have chosen to not answer. If your only method of response is to get personal with people who disagree with you, then its clear you are out of your depth on this topic.

You mean like Daniel and BDunnell? They have been far more personal than anyone else, but guess I'm spoiling things bringing facts into it?

I had forgotten how unpleasant it was to come home from an evening in the pub with my clothes smelling of smoke. Now, if I want to go to a pub of the sort I prefer — i.e. not a 'trendy' bar or similar — I have to put up with the smoking. It doesn't stop me going, but the whole thing would be far more pleasant without smoke.

Sorry for my narcissistic, asinine and possibly anti-freedom whining.

Well you have the choice stay in or go out, choice, good in'it?

A night out would be more pleasant if all the girls wore no clothes, well for me, probably not you and Daniel, you'd probably be sick or something.

Pubs in the UK provide additional areas for people to smoke so there shouldn't be a problem. Why should I miss out at their expense?

Aye they have to as the vast majority of pub goers are also smokers. Smoking areas always the busiest parts of the pub and then for some strange reason the fresh air freaks come out to mingle with the smokers. Now I wonder why that is? Dullards.

The fact we spend close to £2 billion every year on the NHS for smoking related illnesses highlights why the law was introduced. Sitting in a pub drinking yourself stupid and possibly contributing to liver failure is a choice of the individual. Sitting in a pub smoking and filling the room with smoke affects everyone in the room, not just the smoker. Theres a clear difference to the earlier arguement.

The ban has not affected the pub trade as a whole since 1st July 2007, and the majority of smokers I have spoken to have no problem stepping outside for a smoke. Theres also the opinion that when the smoker smokes outside, they too don't smell like an ashtray when they return to the clear atmosphere of the pub. Its all good.. :)

If that was really true then why not ban them altogether, oh yes the 7bn revenue they create to more than cover the 1bn bill.

Shoving a glass in someone's face after drinking too much may slightly annoy the victim a smidgeon but not as much as having to wash your shirt of course.

Not affected pubs, which cave is the rock you live under in? It has decimated the Great British pubs, 5 a day are shutting since the ban. My god you couldn't get it more wrong if you tried.

Bolton Midnight

20th November 2010, 10:42

Many pubs have closed because of the smoking ban and that is a fact, but many have opened in their place.

Started well then resorted to lying.

My mum died a few months ago of cancer, life long smoker, but cancer was not smoking related, when your numbers up there's sod all you can do about it, we all have to die sooner or later.

Daniel

20th November 2010, 11:53

Saying that your mum smoked all her life and didn't die of lung cancer proves nothing. Well, other than that smoking doesn't cause cancer in 100% of smokers

motetarip

20th November 2010, 12:45

I think the ban in pubs is good, although it would be better to have well contained and air-conditioned indoor areas like I've seen in France and Germany rather than the UK's blanket legislation on enclosed spaces. I enjoy nipping outside for the occasional smoke with my pint(s) and it's oddly enough a good way to meet people (albeit mostly only smokers!).

I've always hated smoking inside buildings because of the smell, the choking smoke filled atmosphere and the blatant fire hazard. The local beer gardens in my town are usually significantly busier than inside the pubs (when it's not raining) - a lot of pubs lost trade initially but the ones that adapted (and had the outside space to adapt) have survived.

I don't expect anyone to be subjected to anything harmful be it second-hand smoke or a glass in the face from a drunken idiot. Alcohol and tobacco both lead to serious health issues in the form of long and short term disease and injury, and with alcohol significant social problems. Both cost the health service billions (well recouped in tax on those products). One can reduce quality of health and the other can reduce quality of life, what priority you place on either of those is your subjective opinion, but neither situation is ideal :)

Bolton Midnight

20th November 2010, 13:46

Let the landlord decide, he knows his customers far better than some busy body civil servant.

I like the way they ignore the ban in France, good on them, a truly free society unlike Britain.

Why hasn't fire insurance quotes dropped since the ban I wonder?

Booze causes far more problems for the country than smoking ever has. Ban it.

Daniel

20th November 2010, 13:49

Where is the evidence of fire insurance not dropping? Show me proof or else it's just lies.

motetarip

20th November 2010, 14:42

Since when have insurance companies dropped premiums because the risk is lower!? :) Cigarettes are responsible for a large proportion of building fires and quite a few famous ones such as Kings Cross Station, Bradford City FC, and notably Stardust nightclub in Dublin. Smoking certainly was hazardous to peoples health at those locations!

Believe me when I say I'm very against the nanny state. I take the point about freedom of choice for landlords, and customers can pick and choose where they drink, but it's not just about pubs - all public buildings have employees who shouldn't be continually subjected to a health hazard. Yes they can get a job somewhere else but it's not always easy to pick and choose where you work, especially as an unskilled worker, a job is a job is money on the table. People put their own health on the line to survive and that is why the law is here so they shouldn't have to.

Bolton Midnight

20th November 2010, 16:03

Of course they haven't now the risk has gone, Daniel is err a bit thick it would appear.

Mate of mine has a newsagents, 3 members of staff, all smokers (they used to nip down to the cellar for a smoke). Now they have to leave the premises - it's crackers.

Let the owner decide if he has an office whether it is smoking or not.

Freedom to choose, that is what is needed, hope the Tories over turn it in their Freedom act.

motetarip

20th November 2010, 16:30

My major issue is with the enclosed space ruling. If owners want to designate an indoor area of the premises for smoking then that should be allowed as long as employees don't have to work in that area. The other big problem is the zealous way that laws are policed in the UK, no-one seems to be able to turn a blind eye to the petty stuff anymore.

Bolton Midnight

20th November 2010, 16:50

The other big problem is the zealous way that laws are policed in the UK, no-one seems to be able to turn a blind eye to the petty stuff anymore.

Like they do in France for example, it is great to see over brimming ashtrays next to the no smoking stickers.

Wonder which of Tony's cronies supplied all the UK stickers, nice back hander no doubt.

Daniel

20th November 2010, 18:02

Of course they haven't now the risk has gone, Daniel is err a bit thick it would appear.

Nice try dear :)

Bolton Midnight

20th November 2010, 18:06

Nice try dear :)

How old are you, about 12?

Where is the evidence of fire insurance not dropping? Show me proof or else it's just lies.

Of course they haven't gone down, you'd have to be some kid of idiot to expect them to, even though the risk of fires is now greatly reduced.

Daniel

20th November 2010, 20:15

How old are you, about 12?

Of course they haven't gone down, you'd have to be some kid of idiot to expect them to, even though the risk of fires is now greatly reduced.
You still haven't showed any evidence. LIAR

fandango

21st November 2010, 10:33

In the spirit of fair debate, I'd like to say that I can see the point of those who say smoking shouldn't be a legal issue inside pubs and restaurants. I can see the point about why they say people should be free to choose and no-one is forced to go to these places, so people should vote with their feet. I don't agree with it, for reasons I've already mentioned, but I recognise that it's a valid argument.

My question is, is there anywhere where we all agree on? Any places that everyone thinks it should be illegal to smoke?

The obvious choices (or obvious to me anyway) would be an operating theatre, a school, a restaurant kitchen.

Do we all agree on that? Any others? What about a cinema? An aeroplane?

MrJan

21st November 2010, 17:09

Have you re drinking? Nope, thought not, ban it.

Have I come up for a decent reason for drinking alcohol in a place which exists for the purpose of allowing people to drink alcohol? I wasn't aware that I needed to give a reason but as you've pressed me:- A good reason for drinking in a pub is that a pub exists for you to drink in.

I look forward to your reason as to why you should be allowed to smoke in a pub.

Bolton Midnight

22nd November 2010, 14:28

My question is, is there anywhere where we all agree on? Any places that everyone thinks it should be illegal to smoke?

The obvious choices (or obvious to me anyway) would be an operating theatre, a school, a restaurant kitchen.

Do we all agree on that? Any others? What about a cinema? An aeroplane?

Petrol station

Air was actually cleaner on planes when smoking was allowed than it is nowadays.

Kids nursery, schools (apart from staff rooms)

In the good old days when you could smoke on hospital wards they didn't have superbugs.

Bolton Midnight

22nd November 2010, 14:32

Have I come up for a decent reason for drinking alcohol in a place which exists for the purpose of allowing people to drink alcohol? I wasn't aware that I needed to give a reason but as you've pressed me:- A good reason for drinking in a pub is that a pub exists for you to drink in.

I look forward to your reason as to why you should be allowed to smoke in a pub.

Not necessarily, not everyone in a bar is drinking booze you know?

There are much more valid reasons for banning booze than there are for banning smoking, I'd rather neither are banned but if you follow the flawed logic of having to ban stuff you don't agree with you'll end up with sod all left.

Hunting
Speed Limits on lakes
Smoking
Motor Sports
Shooting
Fishing
Wearing a crucifix
Rambling

etc etc

where does it all end?

Bolton Midnight

22nd November 2010, 14:35

Well the original arguement for people who don't like the smoke was "nobody is forcing you against your will, or well don't go to the pub then if you don't like it".. Thats all great advice and seeing as the smoking ban is in place, it might be worth mentioning that the same advice can now be given to the smokers who feel hard done by. If you don't like the fact you have to go outside for your smoke, don't go to the pub then. Go to bargain booze, get a few cans and smoke until your heart is content in the comfort of your own home.

Which is exactly what has happened, pre ban pubs were shutting at the rate of 2 a day it is now 5 a day, helped by the smoking ban and cheap booze from Tescos etc.

All the non smokers who said they'd go out more often haven't, they were lying.

If I'm not wanted in a pub then I'll not give them my custom, I don't smoke in the house as my kids haven't the choice whether to be there or not, unlike those who used to go to the pub pre ban.

Mark in Oshawa

22nd November 2010, 17:21

Petrol station

Air was actually cleaner on planes when smoking was allowed than it is nowadays.

Kids nursery, schools (apart from staff rooms)

In the good old days when you could smoke on hospital wards they didn't have superbugs.

Are you sure about that air cleaner on planes when smoking was allowed? REALLY?

Smoking in a Hospital is just counterproductive but most of your points have been this way. Hell, why not just allow people to smoke anywhere....just as soon as you allow me my personal habit of punching people in the face..I mean it is just me enjoying life right?? oh right....

Daniel

22nd November 2010, 17:26

Are you sure about that air cleaner on planes when smoking was allowed? REALLY?

Smoking in a Hospital is just counterproductive but most of your points have been this way. Hell, why not just allow people to smoke anywhere....just as soon as you allow me my personal habit of punching people in the face..I mean it is just me enjoying life right?? oh right....
You enjoy punching people in the face too!?!?!?!?! No kidding! I LOVE that. People give me so much attitute when I punch them though :confused:

Bolton Midnight

22nd November 2010, 18:13

Daniel

22nd November 2010, 18:17

Lol

Mark

22nd November 2010, 19:00

Lack of air con causes DVT? I've heard it all now!

Daniel

22nd November 2010, 19:25

Lack of air con causes DVT? I've heard it all now!

If anything it's EXACTLY the opposite. Air con dries out the air and causes you to dry out which thickens the blood.

How do I know? I only did a year of a Bsc Aviation at university rather than a lifetime at the open university of gullibility like our friend.....

Mark in Oshawa

22nd November 2010, 19:31

Your point would be valid were it not for the small fact that the majority of pub goers pre and post ban are smokers. The silent majority again suffers at the hand of the vocal minority.

I don't mind all that much going to the smoking area as it is always the busiest and most fun part of the pub. Just wish the fresh air freaks would naff off mind.

Majority? That was what I heard here in Ontario when they changed the law. Funny, the pubs managed just fine. What is more, the smokers were not a silent majority, they raised holy hell. The bar owners did too....I agreed with their principle at the time, but you know what? The world didn't come to an end, and 90% of the people I know who smoke wont EVEN SMOKE IN THEIR OWN HOUSES NOW!!! They prefer to go outside...and turn the house they live in to a nicotine stained hole that has a lower resale value due to the odour....

[quote="Bolton Midnight":7cr4z3dz]My kids have no choice where they live as they are kids, you on the other hand have a choice which pub you go to smoking or non-smoking.So you don't smoke in your house? My point is made perfectly, why treat strangers with any less concern than your own kids? Last I looked, I didn't like the effects of second hand smoke any more than your kids do.

Yep since the ban on planes they have switched the Air Con well down hence the rise in such things as dvt horrible places now planes, far nicer when smoking was allowed.

Nice theory if you believe in unicorns and tinfoil hats. All those germs and crap were in the air WITH the smoke before. I don't believe the A/C is turned up or down any more...just the new planes have better A/C. Again..show me a real study proving your theory, rather than just your causal assumption.

Punching folk in the face is often a bi-product of excessive alcohol esp wimps who can't handle their ale, it really does need banning, amazed His Toniness and his all controlling cronies didn't think of it, maybe they would had they not got chucked out.[/quote:7cr4z3dz]

Never actually been in a bar fight, I was just making the point your habit is just as offensive to some as me going around and popping people in the melon. You don't get it...but that is ok, the NHS will look after your diseased and wore out lungs and a doctor will be looking at you and thinking " my god, in the modern world, they just keep coming in with knackered lungs KNOWING these fags can kill you".

MrJan

22nd November 2010, 19:38

Are you sure about that air cleaner on planes when smoking was allowed? REALLY?

Yup. It was on QI (a tv programme over here), apparently airlines can save money by lowering the rate at which air is changed. This means that there is actually more CO2 and less fresh oxygen, but because we can't smell smoke we think that the air is cleaner.

Dunno about the DVT crap though, most likely that Bolton Bull**** was making that one up.

Daniel

22nd November 2010, 19:41

Yup. It was on QI (a tv programme over here), apparently airlines can save money by lowering the rate at which air is changed. This means that there is actually more CO2 and less fresh oxygen, but because we can't smell smoke we think that the air is cleaner.

Dunno about the DVT crap though, most likely that Bolton Bull**** was making that one up.

Nothing to do with DVT though :)

Airlines also change the conditions in the cabin so as to help people fall asleep.

Bolton Midnight

22nd November 2010, 20:26

Just out of interest can you provide any proof that the majority of people who drink in pubs are smokers? Thats certainly not the case where I am from but then again it might be different in your area.

I suppose someone who doesn't smoke coming up and joining you outside is about as annoying as standing in a pub and someone blowing their second hand smoke in my direction because they don't want it lingering around in their group of friends while they are socialising.

It was also the solution back in the old days before the ban when people refused to stop blowing smoke in my direction. :p

True story now.. Back in around 2002 I was in a pub in Cardiff called 'The Claude' watching the Wednesday night football with a few mates. I walked past the end of the bar and a group of chavy lads were stood laughing, shouting (generally enjoying themselves) and smoking, when one of them dropped a fag end in my freshly bought pint. They obviously thought it was abit of fun and the group laughed their heads off. I naturally stopped in amazement at what had just happened, staring down at what had become a £2 ashy mess in a glass. My mates said just leave it we'll get you another one.. The anger started to build inside me and my reaction was to throw this pint in the face of the offender and punch him as hard as I could in the face. His mates stood there shocked not quite realising what had happened, and myself and my mates legged it! I suppose the moral of the story is don't p!ss off the non smoker and maybe if smoking had been banned back then, that situation might not have happened and our chum wouldn't have got his nose broken. :D

A few things show me that the majority are smokers

a) the fact that every landlord / landlady I've spoken to says so, but what would they know eh?

b) the fact the smoking areas are always the busiest

c) the fact all these pubs are closing down post ban

Not so bad if they are a fit lass leaving their dullard chap in the pub, but they bleat on about having cleaner pubs then join the dirty smokers, doesn't make sense. I suspect they'd rather a pub with smoke and a decent buzz about it than one full of stiffs enjoying the smell of toilets and stale ale.

Of course you did Rambo. You had chance to chuck the beer, place the pint down and punch him all without any kind of reaction from him, I've been out in Cardiff, two drops the first one hitting his face the next you being dropped. Did you enquire afterwards with him re whether you'd broken his nose or was that just in your imagination?

Bolton Midnight

22nd November 2010, 20:33

Majority? That was what I heard here in Ontario when they changed the law. Funny, the pubs managed just fine. What is more, the smokers were not a silent majority, they raised holy hell. The bar owners did too....I agreed with their principle at the time, but you know what? The world didn't come to an end, and 90% of the people I know who smoke wont EVEN SMOKE IN THEIR OWN HOUSES NOW!!! They prefer to go outside...and turn the house they live in to a nicotine stained hole that has a lower resale value due to the odour....

So you don't smoke in your house? My point is made perfectly, why treat strangers with any less concern than your own kids? Last I looked, I didn't like the effects of second hand smoke any more than your kids do.

Nice theory if you believe in unicorns and tinfoil hats. All those germs and crap were in the air WITH the smoke before. I don't believe the A/C is turned up or down any more...just the new planes have better A/C. Again..show me a real study proving your theory, rather than just your causal assumption.

Never actually been in a bar fight, I was just making the point your habit is just as offensive to some as me going around and popping people in the melon. You don't get it...but that is ok, the NHS will look after your diseased and wore out lungs and a doctor will be looking at you and thinking " my god, in the modern world, they just keep coming in with knackered lungs KNOWING these fags can kill you".

Don't really give a flying f*** re Canada. In the UK 5 pubs a day are shutting, that's 5 families and staff going to the dogs every single day. Not to mention the loss of a community having somewhere to go.

For the umpteenth time, my kids don't have a choice where they live, moaning types did re going out to neck poison.

The analogy only works if you made sure everyone who entered the pub knew they were going to get punched as they certainly knew they would be exposed to second hand smoke.

I should bloody well hope so too, us smokers pay for the hospital in the first place, we should be treated like royalty.

Bolton Midnight

22nd November 2010, 20:35

Yup. It was on QI (a tv programme over here), apparently airlines can save money by lowering the rate at which air is changed. This means that there is actually more CO2 and less fresh oxygen, but because we can't smell smoke we think that the air is cleaner.

Dunno about the DVT crap though, most likely that Bolton Bull**** was making that one up.

I thought it was that very show that mentioned the increase in DVT since the smoking ban, but even if it wasn't still a fact re the crappy air we now get post smoking ban, guess they didn't mention that on the fortnight degree t'other chap did.

schmenke

22nd November 2010, 20:57

Yup. It was on QI (a tv programme over here), apparently airlines can save money by lowering the rate at which air is changed. ....

Is the air actually changed? That would require a scrubber to remove the carbon dioxide. I thought that the cabin air is simply expelled and continuously replaced with fresh air?

motetarip

22nd November 2010, 20:58

I suppose one publican is enough to get a uniformed opinion on the ratio of smokers across the UK pub scene.

Have you ever met a pub landlord that doesn't know everything about anything!? :D

motetarip

22nd November 2010, 21:05

Two words - Bill Hicks

Another word - Irony

BDunnell

22nd November 2010, 21:32

A few things show me that the majority are smokers

a) the fact that every landlord / landlady I've spoken to says so, but what would they know eh?

How many have you spoken to in the course of your academic research on the subject? And if you ask every landlord/lady of a pub you visit, I'm sure it makes for a thrilling evening out.

b) the fact the smoking areas are always the busiest

Not in my experience. Your alleged 'fact' is utter nonsense.

c) the fact all these pubs are closing down post ban

Define 'all these'.

BDunnell

22nd November 2010, 21:35

How do I know? I only did a year of a Bsc Aviation at university rather than a lifetime at the open university of gullibility like our friend.....

That's very insulting. The Open University is a fine institution with high academic standards.

Daniel

22nd November 2010, 21:36

I wasn't making fun of the open university, I was making light of how gullible he is.

MrJan

22nd November 2010, 22:41

c) the fact all these pubs are closing down post ban

So that's all to do with the smoking ban? Interesting, here was me thinking that it was due to depression and the fact that the British public have been changing their drinking habits for a long time. I suppose that chain pubs like Wetherspoon's haven't had anything to do with it either, it's not like offering pints for 50p less than more traditional pubs is going to have any effect. The rise in actual cost of beer probably doesn't come into it either, it's all down to smokers having to go outside for a tab.

BDunnell

22nd November 2010, 22:43

I wasn't making fun of the open university, I was making light of how gullible he is.

I know.

Bolton Midnight

22nd November 2010, 22:58

I like this point lol. I suppose one publican is enough to get a uniformed opinion on the ratio of smokers across the UK pub scene. Nice one. :laugh:

That sounds like you don't believe me, well thats your prerogative I suppose haha. Believe me when your fist connects with the tip of someones nose and you feel that dull crack its a fair assumption to say the nose might be broken. ;)

I don't remember saying anything about placing the pint down once I'd punched him... Maybe you could add tying my shoe laces, rolling my sleeves up, and ordering another pint whilst I run out the door into the next equation. :p Anyway thats beside the point and it wouldn't be something I did now anyway. I've grown up. ;)

Who said only 1? I have lots of mates in the trade and they all say the same be they smokers, ex smokers or non smokers.

Drinking & smoking go hand in hand, always have and still do. Stands to reason if you are willing to drink poison then you're also the same sort of person who's willing to smoke it too.

Ah so only an assumption now re the broken nose, just you said it first time as a statement of fact. I've had my nose broken playing rugby and even I didn't know it was broken so god only knows how you could be so certain based on a fleeting act.

So you went for him with a glass in your hand, shame you didn't end up in clink on a serious charge then.

Bolton Midnight

22nd November 2010, 23:01

So that's all to do with the smoking ban? Interesting, here was me thinking that it was due to depression and the fact that the British public have been changing their drinking habits for a long time. I suppose that chain pubs like Wetherspoon's haven't had anything to do with it either, it's not like offering pints for 50p less than more traditional pubs is going to have any effect. The rise in actual cost of beer probably doesn't come into it either, it's all down to smokers having to go outside for a tab.

I did say cheap booze was also a contributing factor did I not?

But the big acceleration in pub closures happened pre recession but immediately after the smoking ban. Drinking habits have changed yes, a lot of smokers don't go to pubs any more - knew you'd get there eventually, shame it too you so long.

Bolton Midnight

22nd November 2010, 23:03

How many have you spoken to in the course of your academic research on the subject? And if you ask every landlord/lady of a pub you visit, I'm sure it makes for a thrilling evening out.

Not in my experience. Your alleged 'fact' is utter nonsense.

Define 'all these'.

Loads, no I'm pals with them, and I respect their insight into British pubs as being better than yours.

So you don't think 5 pubs a day are closing then? This'll be fun.

Bolton Midnight

22nd November 2010, 23:11

Two words - Bill Hicks

Another word - Irony

keep people stupid and apathetic - seems to have worked a treat

Pancreatic cancer - another reason to outlaw alcohol - cheers

Bolton Midnight

22nd November 2010, 23:13

Have you ever met a pub landlord that doesn't know everything about anything!? :D

But of course they know sod all about the licensing business, esp compared to a bunch of people who winge about smelly clothing after a night out, they after all are the real experts.

Bolton Midnight

22nd November 2010, 23:15

Is the air actually changed? That would require a scrubber to remove the carbon dioxide. I thought that the cabin air is simply expelled and continuously replaced with fresh air?

It used to be replaced but post ban it isn't, they turn the A/C down to save money so you end up with dirtier air than when smoking was allowed.

But you still hear the idiots saying how much cleaner the air is on flights nowadays - utterly clueless they are.

MrJan

22nd November 2010, 23:16

I have to give it to you Bm, you're a difficult man to argue against. This may be down to your points bring so wonderfully stupid that they are just baffling, but don't think that makes this a hollow victory.

Love that you think that it makes sense for any drinker to also smoke, that's just too beautiful for words. I myself also enjoy smack and horse on the basis of 'well I'm already poisoning myself with alcohol', it's a philosophy that's served me well, I just wish that I could control these ****ING MOOD SWINGS!!!

Daniel

22nd November 2010, 23:25

I know.

How dim of me *slaps forehead*

Daniel

22nd November 2010, 23:26

It used to be replaced but post ban it isn't, they turn the A/C down to save money so you end up with dirtier air than when smoking was allowed.

But you still hear the idiots saying how much cleaner the air is on flights nowadays - utterly clueless they are.

How is the air "dirty" may I ask?

motetarip

22nd November 2010, 23:27

There's a lot of personal insults flying around, is this a discussion or a slanging match, I'm not feeling too much like posting on this thread anymore.

Bolton Midnight

22nd November 2010, 23:32

Bolton Midnight

22nd November 2010, 23:33

There's a lot of personal insults flying around, is this a discussion or a slanging match, I'm not feeling too much like posting on this thread anymore.

Sorry I was merely following the regular's lead, is that not the way it is done then?

But I don't call anyone a name, they call it themselves - but if the cap fits and all that.

Bolton Midnight

22nd November 2010, 23:36

How is the air "dirty" may I ask?

you miss this post?

Yup. It was on QI (a tv programme over here), apparently airlines can save money by lowering the rate at which air is changed. This means that there is actually more CO2 and less fresh oxygen, but because we can't smell smoke we think that the air is cleaner.

Have you ever been on a plane post ban? I feel like I get a cold every bloody time, was fine when could smoke mind.

schmenke

22nd November 2010, 23:46

It used to be replaced but post ban it isn't, they turn the A/C down to save money so you end up with dirtier air than when smoking was allowed....

I'm not convinced.
I'm no aviation expert but, I don't beleive aircraft are equipped with scrubbers.
As far as I know the "fresh" air is actually compressed air drawn from the engine turbines (the air needs to be compressed because it's far too thin to be breathable at cruising altitudes), routed through an AC unit (a heat-exchanger unit) then blown in to the cabin. There is no savings by "turning down" the AC. The cooling is provided through the use of a heat exchage system where the incoming (compressed) hot air is exchanged with the cold ambient air flowing over the exchangers. In other words the AC system draws little or now power from the engines.
I don't believe this system changed at all since the smoking ban.

Bolton Midnight

23rd November 2010, 00:05

Planes have HEPA scrubbers

http://www.virgin.com/richard-branson/blog/air-quality-on-planes/

so if you slow down the frequency of replenishment you end up with dirtier air.

fandango

23rd November 2010, 08:17

Ireland has had the smoking ban in places where people work for a few years now. It was brought in there before Britain. I have no great studies to quote, only my experience from being there, but I think that if the government were to try to bring back permission to smoke in pubs it wouldn't be popular. People prefer things as they are now.

Smokers don't mind popping out for a few minutes, and that ends all this silly talk of rights vs health vs nobody made you come here.

It's a fair point that people do as much damage to themselves with alcohol, or possibly more so in the case of Ireland and the UK. But drinking alcohol does not affect your immediate environment the way smoking does.

And drinking alcohol can be good for you. Not at the level of Irish and British people's consumption, but it is possible to drink alcohol healthily. Here in Barcelona, Catalan people are not heavy drinkers, by and large. When they start to feel a little tippsy they go home because being drunk is not considered acceptable social behaviour unless it's a special occasion (Barça beating Real Madrid, New Year's Eve for example, not "The first Friday of the week")

A cigarette is the only legal product that, when used as the manufacturer intended, will do you harm. And it pollutes your immediate environment.

So smokers, you've had your day. You did nothing for me, so I've no sympathy, and you moan about the ban just as much as "the clean air freaks". And that's all it is - pathetic moaning.

Dave B

23rd November 2010, 08:46

Yep since the ban on planes they have switched the Air Con well down....
This seems to be something of an urban myth promoted by a throwaway line in QI and propogated by the tabloids. There's shaky evidence for this, it's likely that people becoming ill on planes is more to do with surface-to-surface contact speading bacteria and viruses - nothing to do with air quality.

hence the rise in such things as dvt horrible places now planes, far nicer when smoking was allowed.
Utterly rubbish. I've suffered DVTs, I've built up quite a bit of knowledge over the last decade, and they're nothing whatsover to do with air quality. Immobility is a major cause, and you're just as likely to suffer on a similar length bus or train journey.

I was genuinely surprised to read that you had kids and went to the pub, Bolton, I'd always assumed from your posts that you were about 15. Nothing on this thread has given me any cause to re-evaluate my opinion of your postings.

schmenke

23rd November 2010, 14:35

My brother-in-law is a "field tech-rep" for Honeywell, servicing commercial aircraft engines.
This is his e-mail response to my query regarding recirculated air on airplanes

"...There are recirculation fans on board most aircraft these days that take the existing air and re-circulate it through the cabin. As long as there is no fire, smoke or other abnormality, the recirc fans operate continuously throughout the flight. However, there are HEPA filters (massive ones, in fact) that are used before each recirc fan to capture airborne particles and other bacteria. HEPA filters, when used properly, eliminate over 99% of the viruses and bacteria produced by us humans. They are disposable ones and are changed out at regular intervals. The main reason to use recirc fans is to lower the bleed air demand on the engines, thereby saving fuel. We don’t consume 100% of the air we breathe inside an aircraft cabin, so the recirc fans recycle that air back into the cabin atmosphere. The A/C units on aircraft don’t have any problem cooling or heating the cabin air; it’s got more to do with fuel savings than cabin temperature.
It’s no different than the recirc switch on your A/C in the car. The cabin gets colder/ hotter a lot faster when the recirc switch is on, as it has a cumulative effect on building up temperature. But air always being fed in and exhausted by the cabin pressure system on any aircraft. Smaller aircraft, usually private jets and the like, do not recirc the air, as the fuel burn penalty is much less for the size of cabin involved. ..."

Daniel

28th November 2010, 10:06

I see that this debate went rather cold once the subject of the UK's recession was brought in as a contributory factor to why businesses including pubs have closed since the start of the smoking ban in July 2007.

I asked before, are pubs closing in certain areas because people just don't want to step outside for a ciggarette, or is it the fact that 2.45M people are currently unemployed in the UK and simply don't have the money to go down the pub anymore? I think logic answers this one. :)

You also forgot to mention that a whole lot of whoopass was opened on Bolton Midnight's silly aircraft myths as well.

BDunnell

28th November 2010, 12:17

I asked before, are pubs closing in certain areas because people just don't want to step outside for a ciggarette, or is it the fact that 2.45M people are currently unemployed in the UK and simply don't have the money to go down the pub anymore? I think logic answers this one. :)

As with anything, there is a range of factors. Plenty of pubs are also doing well, generally because they have adapted successfully to the modern era.

52Paddy

28th November 2010, 13:15

I'm a smoker and we've had the smoking ban in Ireland since 2004. Fortunately (I guess), by the time I became old enough to go to pubs, the smoking ban had already been implemented. So, I never really had the pub experience pre-smoking ban. However, I do remember smokers inside certain cafés when I was younger.

My father is a heavy smoker so I've always been used to the smell of smoke and, by and large, I've never really been bothered by it. I started smoking in school at 13 years of age in an attempt to give of a 'macho' persona. Looking back, it was immature, but, then again, at that age, who isn't immature? I enjoy my cigarettes (roll-ups for the record). I enjoy them during times of stress. I enjoy them with a coffee in the morning, or with tea and biscuits in the evening. And, I treasure the opportunity for a ciggy during a drinking session in a pub.

Drinking in Ireland is quite popular, especially with the student lifestyle. And, unlike in some European countries, being absolutely hammered is not as frowned upon. So, all kinds of people frequent our pubs and, in my opinion, nobody should be subjected to second-hand smoke because it is a fact that passive smoking can kill. My friend's grandmother died from lung cancer, 20 years after her husband had passed away. She never smoked in her life but was always subjected to her husband's smoke around the house.

I have no problem standing outside for a cigarette, even if it's raining or cold, in the same way that I have no problem not smoking in my friend's car or house. I have yet to meet one smoker in Ireland who thinks the contrary. That said, I enjoy those nights when we get a 'lock-in' (bar closes but they serve drinks inside to a select few - happens a lot in Irish music circles) and the bartender doesn't mind us lighting up inside. This stops us from going out and attracting Garda (police) attention. Of course, the other clientele (who would normally be friends of mine in such situations) would have no problem with this and, if a case arose where they did, I would gladly not smoke.

52Paddy

28th November 2010, 13:23

Oh and cheers to Ben, Daniel, Bob and Bolton Midnight for the laughs. This forum is bloody mad :crazy:

airshifter

30th November 2010, 03:34

I see that this debate went rather cold once the subject of the UK's recession was brought in as a contributory factor to why businesses including pubs have closed since the start of the smoking ban in July 2007.

I asked before, are pubs closing in certain areas because people just don't want to step outside for a ciggarette, or is it the fact that 2.45M people are currently unemployed in the UK and simply don't have the money to go down the pub anymore? I think logic answers this one. :)

Then again, there is nothing to substantiate either claim now is there?

Unemployment is up in the US too, but I don't see bars closing down left and right. Is this due to unemployment having less financial effect on the avearge US bar patron, or is it due to the fact that the smoking laws work a lot different?

glauistean

30th November 2010, 06:03

I do not attack, other posters you and you the other glauistean wannabes are the ones that do, keep on trolling.

Your rhetoric is vacuous but mainly boring.
Fini

Are you using my name to vindicate your obsession with me or those that challenge you? In either case you DO show signs of a personality trait that in and of itself lends you to tantrums and projection.

You have four words that you constantly use. They are narcissistic, rhetoric vacuous and ignorant.

In my work this, although just viewing your comments is a chore in itself, I would have to view your self worth as very low. There is a sociopath's style to your projection and method of trying to insult. The most glaring is the fact that when confronted with actual logic you DO SEE it, but you choose to ignore it because you simply have this childish mentality that what 50 other posters may say, it is you, and only you that is correct.

You sit back and congratulate yourself for your witty replies and bring up my name even though it is days since I have been here or even posted. This is indicative as you are now using me as an attempt to gain some semblance of credibility from others whom you know have had disagreements with me in the past. That you do this is a form of mental impotence.

Carry on with your archaic arguments , but please, enough with this "we have a right" as though no other country in the world has such a thing.

In many areas the US is behind other parts of the world and those countries get along just fine when their governments choose to enact laws for the betterment of ALL and not just a few.

BDunnell

30th November 2010, 09:43

Then again, there is nothing to substantiate either claim now is there?

Unemployment is up in the US too, but I don't see bars closing down left and right. Is this due to unemployment having less financial effect on the avearge US bar patron, or is it due to the fact that the smoking laws work a lot different?

There is, I believe, one important difference between pubs/bars in the UK and the USA. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that in the USA drinks companies are not allowed to own such establishments. In the UK they are. As the drinks industry has increasingly consolidated, the big pub chains have become a malign influence, in the eyes of many.

glauistean

30th November 2010, 16:02

There is, I believe, one important difference between pubs/bars in the UK and the USA. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that in the USA drinks companies are not allowed to own such establishments. In the UK they are. As the drinks industry has increasingly consolidated, the big pub chains have become a malign influence, in the eyes of many.

Companies (beer) not owning their own pubs is against my ummmm...rights or ummm, the second, no the first. Oh shucks, it's just dang well wrong. We are already giving the rich more tax concessions some of our forum posters think that is good. Now you want to stir up the pot..tut tut!!! :rolleyes:

Bob Riebe

30th November 2010, 16:14

Are you using my name to vindicate your obsession with me or those that challenge you? In either case you DO show signs of a personality trait that in and of itself lends you to tantrums and projection.

You have four words that you constantly use. They are narcissistic, rhetoric vacuous and ignorant.

In my work this, although just viewing your comments is a chore in itself, I would have to view your self worth as very low. There is a sociopath's style to your projection and method of trying to insult. The most glaring is the fact that when confronted with actual logic you DO SEE it, but you choose to ignore it because you simply have this childish mentality that what 50 other posters may say, it is you, and only you that is correct.

You sit back and congratulate yourself for your witty replies and bring up my name even though it is days since I have been here or even posted. This is indicative as you are now using me as an attempt to gain some semblance of credibility from others whom you know have had disagreements with me in the past. That you do this is a form of mental impotence.

Carry on with your archaic arguments , but please, enough with this "we have a right" as though no other country in the world has such a thing.

In many areas the US is behind other parts of the world and those countries get along just fine when their governments choose to enact laws for the betterment of ALL and not just a few.

Boogity-boogity-bootity.
http://www.foolstown.com/pix/progr/dranim.gif

Bolton Midnight

30th November 2010, 16:18

I didn't state anything as fact and I certainly wouldn't attack someone with a glass. You are trolling because you are starting to realise how pathetic your arguement is.

Apart from calling me a liar and dullard, and Daniel thick?

Am not trolling, just because you've been rumbled don't resort to making things up. You did state you were holding a pint and you did state you broke his nose, if you are going to make things up then at least try and be consistent; lying requires intellect.

No I did not, read back and you'll see I didn't call you that, you called yourself it.

I see that this debate went rather cold once the subject of the UK's recession was brought in as a contributory factor to why businesses including pubs have closed since the start of the smoking ban in July 2007.

I asked before, are pubs closing in certain areas because people just don't want to step outside for a ciggarette, or is it the fact that 2.45M people are currently unemployed in the UK and simply don't have the money to go down the pub anymore? I think logic answers this one. :)

5 pubs a day are shutting, that is a fact, feel free to Google it if you live under a rock in a cave and have not noticed loads of boarded up pubs.

Unemployment is better now than it was under Labour, but the number of pubs shutting is much the same.

Smoking Ban is killing pubs but other factors aren't helping I'll give you that.

Bolton Midnight

30th November 2010, 16:19

White paper "a charter for potentially oppressive social engineering" says Forest

NEWS RELEASE Tuesday 30 November, 2010

A consumer group has warned that the Department of Health white paper on public health, published today, could be a "charter for potentially oppressive social engineering".

The white paper, Healthy Lives, Healthy People, sets out the Government’s long-term vision for the future of public health in England. The aim, says the DH, is to create a "wellness" service (Public Health England) giving more responsibility to local authorities.

"To make sure that progress is made on issues like obesity and smoking," says the DH, "Public Health England will set a series of outcomes to measure whether people’s health actually improves."

Simon Clark, director of the smokers' group Forest, said: "Government has no business micro-managing people's lives. For all the talk about nudging, the white paper is a charter for potentially oppressive social engineering.

"We know what happens when people refuse to be nudged. Campaigners demand more and more regulations and ministers are happy to indulge them.

"The white paper merely transfers that power to local councils.

"We are in danger of creating an immensely dull, zero risk society in which freedom of choice and personal responsibility are consigned to history."

BDunnell

30th November 2010, 16:33

Bolton Midnight

30th November 2010, 16:42

Forget white-water rafting, aerobatic flying...

Labour would have no doubt banned such sports sooner or later

Nanny knows best.......

BDunnell

30th November 2010, 16:45

Labour would have no doubt banned such sports sooner or later

Nanny knows best.......

What on earth are you on about?

Bolton Midnight

30th November 2010, 16:51

Is English not your first language?

'Nanny State' google it

Daniel

30th November 2010, 18:11

5 pubs a day are shutting, that is a fact, feel free to Google it if you live under a rock in a cave and have not noticed loads of boarded up pubs.

Don't be a fool. Realise that MOST people prefer to go to pubs where there's no smoke.

Bolton Midnight

30th November 2010, 18:17

http://takingliberties.squarespace.com/taking-liberties/2010/9/6/smoking-ban-and-pub-closures.html

The Morning Advertiser last week reported new research that suggests that the smoking ban is the main cause of pub closures

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/news/tv-chef-antony-worrall-thompson-joins-campaign-for-limited-pub-smoking-1715009.html

The campaign is calling for urgent consideration of the changes to halt a decline that has seen six pubs closing every day, according to the British Beer and Pub Association.

Worrall Thompson, patron of the smokers' group Forest, said: "The smoking ban has had an extraordinarily detrimental effect on pubs and clubs, and you can understand why.

"They used to be bastions of adult entertainment where young and old could meet and chat over a pint without the health police looking over their shoulders.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1180826/Landlady-transforms-pub-smoking-research-centre-legal-loophole-customers-smoke-indoors.html

Just five days later, customer numbers have quadrupled as word has spread about the 'smoking research centre' in the Cutting Edge pub in Barnsley.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1180826/Landlady-transforms-pub-smoking-research-centre-legal-loophole-customers-smoke-indoors.html#ixzz16n7PEDIE

Just five days later, customer numbers have quadrupled as word has spread about the 'smoking research centre' in the Cutting Edge pub in Barnsley.

there you go, took a few seconds on Google
apology accepted

Bolton Midnight

30th November 2010, 18:21

I've been rumbled because I've stated that the recession is the real reason why so many pubs have been lost in the last few years in the poorer areas of Britain eh? Once again you've called me a liar and now you are suggesting I lack intelect. Very mature.

What are you talking about? What did I call myself??????????

But it isn't, you are wrong, deal with it.

So do you now wish to edit/retract this tale about decking this chav who dropped a tab in your pint, now you've been rumbled?

No I said to lie well requires intellect, to contradict yourself when lying does not.

Don't bleat to me if the cap fits wear it with pride.

Bolton Midnight

30th November 2010, 18:23

Don't be a fool. Realise that MOST people prefer to go to pubs where there's no smoke.

If that was really true then so many would not be closing.

Most drinkers are also smokers, so they'd rather they be allowed to smoke as well as drink.

It's not very hard to follow.

Those that said they would go out more have been found out, they were lying and pubs are going out of business based on these fresh air freak's lies.

Hardly seems fair does it? Perhaps they should be forced to pay an additional 'lying and non smoking tax'.

BDunnell

30th November 2010, 18:25

Is English not your first language?

'Nanny State' google it

Google is a trademark, and therefore should start with a capital letter. Google it.

I was asking what on earth you were on about in terms of your utterly inarticulate ranting.

Bolton Midnight

30th November 2010, 18:26

Its impossible to have a sensible debate with someone who can only respond with insults

If I say someone who hasn't noticed pubs shutting is a clueless idiot, then that is not insult, but if you want to say 'hey I've not seen any close' then you are saying you're an idiot, not me.

Understand?

BDunnell

30th November 2010, 18:28

Bolton Midnight

30th November 2010, 18:30

I heard with Ainsley Harriet

Mail > Guardian
FACT

BDunnell

30th November 2010, 18:31

If that was really true then so many would not be closing.

Most drinkers are also smokers, so they'd rather they be allowed to smoke as well as drink.

It's not very hard to follow.

Those that said they would go out more have been found out, they were lying and pubs are going out of business based on these fresh air freak's lies.

Hardly seems fair does it? Perhaps they should be forced to pay an additional 'lying and non smoking tax'.

Please provide us with some statistical evidence as to your assertion that 'most drinkers are also smokers'. In my circle of friends, pretty much everyone drinks. Very few smoke. But if you have read studies that suggest this to be atypical, bring them on. I'm thinking you can often be found with your nose buried in The Lancet?

BDunnell

30th November 2010, 18:32

I heard with Ainsley Harriet

Mail > Guardian
FACT

What does any of this even mean?

Bolton Midnight

30th November 2010, 18:34

Okay, the fuzzy felt version

How did you know for a fact you'd broken his nose?

What did you do with the glass in your hand as you stated you didn't put it down, so where did it end up?

These are not trick questions

BDunnell

30th November 2010, 18:34

Have The Sun or The Star run this story do you know?

Possibly, but then the word 'tobacco' has three syllables, so possibly not.

Bolton Midnight

30th November 2010, 18:36

What does any of this even mean?

http://www.advertisingarchives.captureweb.co.uk/images/trueimages/30/51/13/95/30511395-1.jpg

please get some of these for Crimbo, you need to be able to read to post on internet foras, there's a good chap

BDunnell

30th November 2010, 18:42

http://www.advertisingarchives.captureweb.co.uk/images/trueimages/30/51/13/95/30511395-1.jpg

please get some of these for Crimbo, you need to be able to read to post on internet foras, there's a good chap

Fora.

MrJan

30th November 2010, 20:07

Please provide us with some statistical evidence as to your assertion that 'most drinkers are also smokers'. In my circle of friends, pretty much everyone drinks. Very few smoke.

Out of about 10 of my closest friends I can think of only one that smokes (and that's very infrequent because he's usually 'giving up'). Strangely he has also recently stopped drinking that much due to health problems (unrelated to either smoking or drinking). Smoking is very much a habit which is disappearing amongst younger/ish people.

Ooh, just remembered another mate who smokes, he's usually the one outside on his own, generally either cold or wet :(

Daniel

30th November 2010, 20:19

If that was really true then so many would not be closing.

So the fact that people prefer to go to smokeless pubs somehow puts cash in their pockets in a time of austerity and means they can afford to drink more? It is you that's delusional......

Daniel

30th November 2010, 20:21

What does any of this even mean?

Ben, you may not be familiar with this but if you're struggling to defeat someone with reliable evidence in an online debate all you need to do is say FACT (It must be in capitals) and you've won the argument.

BDunnell

30th November 2010, 21:27

Ben, you may not be familiar with this but if you're struggling to defeat someone with reliable evidence in an online debate all you need to do is say FACT (It must be in capitals) and you've won the argument.

Oh yeah. Sorry. 'No comebacks' is also legally binding.

MrJan

30th November 2010, 21:56

FCAT and FTCA are also binding, there's a clause that covers for typos

airshifter

1st December 2010, 02:13

There is, I believe, one important difference between pubs/bars in the UK and the USA. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that in the USA drinks companies are not allowed to own such establishments. In the UK they are. As the drinks industry has increasingly consolidated, the big pub chains have become a malign influence, in the eyes of many.

I don't know of any laws prohibiting an alcohol related company from owning bars, but I don't know of any such bars existing either.

But my point was that the majority of debate on this issue being caused by (insert whatever view that poster is debating) is nothing other than speculation with little if any solid evidence to substantiate it. It's simply that many of those who agree with the ban keep telling Bolton he is wrong for his speculation, based on their speculation. :D

glauistean

1st December 2010, 03:10

Boogity-boogity-bootity.
http://www.foolstown.com/pix/progr/dranim.gif

Would this qualify as schizotypal as defined and applicable to Bobby? Your thoughts pertaining to this would be greatly appreciated.

I have noticed the same behavior from a person that shall remain nameless but it is not as acute.

Dave B

1st December 2010, 12:18

Are Bob and Bolton cousins?

Daniel

1st December 2010, 14:39

Maybe they're kissing cousins. Would explain a lot

BDunnell

1st December 2010, 22:20

I don't know of any laws prohibiting an alcohol related company from owning bars, but I don't know of any such bars existing either.

But my point was that the majority of debate on this issue being caused by (insert whatever view that poster is debating) is nothing other than speculation with little if any solid evidence to substantiate it. It's simply that many of those who agree with the ban keep telling Bolton he is wrong for his speculation, based on their speculation. :D

No, based on the fact that clearly more than one factor is involved, rather than just the smoking ban.

airshifter

2nd December 2010, 03:29

No, based on the fact that clearly more than one factor is involved, rather than just the smoking ban.

Though I agree that this is probably the case, it seems that none of the angles of the debate has any evidence to either prove this theory, or dispute it. Which IMHO makes it even more interesting as to why some of those involved in the debate seem so sure certain factors are the main cause. :s mokin:

Shawn Micheal

7th December 2010, 05:40

I hate smoking with my heart ............. Its a very Bad Habit .Its so much dangerous for human life !

Roamy

9th December 2010, 05:51

I hate overpopulation with my heart ............. Its a very Bad Habit .Its so much dangerous for human life !

Retro Formula 1

9th December 2010, 09:49

Smoking kills smokers and others in the vicinity.

Smoking is anti-social and affects others about you, making the room and their clothes stink.

Smoking puts a huge drain on the Health Service.

Smoking costs a fortune for the addicts.

I hate it and pray that one day I can kick this foul addiction.

Mark

9th December 2010, 10:52

Smoking puts a huge drain on the Health Service.

Yes and no. It takes up a lot of the staffs time in dealing with smoking related diseases, however the amount smokers pay in tax more than makes up for the amount of NHS resources they use.

donKey jote

9th December 2010, 11:07

the amount smokers pay in tax more than makes up for the amount of NHS resources they use.
Yes and no. Or does their tax on tobacco go straight into the NHS.

Dr. Krogshöj

9th December 2010, 11:55

I hate overpopulation with my heart ............. Its a very Bad Habit .Its so much dangerous for human life !

It's kind of true, but off-topic, isn't it?

Roamy

9th December 2010, 14:34

It's kind of true, but off-topic, isn't it?

KInda but if we are talking about eliminating bad things for our health. I can add sugar and enriched flour to the smoking list as well. Matter of fact in our country the Food and Drug Admin should be prosecuted for what they allow in food. Most of the time now you won't get any smoke unless you are standing next to a smoker outside. I had a guy ask me to smoke elsewhere when I was standing at a golf tourney. He was standing there with his fat ugly wife and 5 kids. Over populating and bringing ugly kids into the world with parents of disproportionate physical statures. So now I will start a new thread

donKey jote

9th December 2010, 14:52

I had a guy ask me to smoke elsewhere

go on fousto, do tell us what you did to retaliate... fist sandwich? shoot him? nuke him? buttplug him?

thought not, you big pansy ;) :p :laugh:
:bandit:

Daniel

9th December 2010, 14:55

fist sandwich?

This is roamy, not the Jenson lover.

Disclaimer: I have edited the above post to remove content which I felt that it did not need. A transcript of the post is available by clicking the arrow in the quote or by sending a self adressed stamped envelope to motorsport forums at....

donKey jote

9th December 2010, 14:59

This is roamy, not Sandy Bott.[/B]

oh sorry, I'm not racist it's just they all look the same :erm: :dozey: :p

Roamy

9th December 2010, 15:01

go on fousto, do tell us what you did to retaliate... fist sandwich? shoot him? nuke him? buttplug him?

thought not, you big pansy ;) :p :laugh:
:bandit:

Yea and with the lit cigar :)

MrJan

9th December 2010, 15:55

go on fousto, do tell us what you did to retaliate... fist sandwich? shoot him? nuke him? buttplug him?

thought not, you big pansy

I'm not that Fousto would want to 'waste' a buttplug on someone else when he could just use it himself ;) :p :

schmenke

9th December 2010, 16:47

go on fousto, do tell us what you did to retaliate... fisting him?
...

Edited for accuracy.

:uhoh:

Daniel

9th December 2010, 17:52

Perhaps roamy could be called Fisto from now on? :p

Bolton Midnight

10th December 2010, 03:10

Answered previously in this thread.

Have you ever dropped a pint glass on a pub floor? Its very satisfying. ;)

I can see you are desperate to believe me. Has this side line discussion taken the focus away from your failing arguement for long enough do you think? :eek:

No you didn't, originally you said as a matter of fact that you'd broken his nose then changed it to you felt it break as you punched him, the two are not the same.

So now you're saying you dropped the glass on the floor - bit unfair on the pub and its staff that - odd you didn't say that when I first asked re the glass.

You're making this up (and doing v badly) as you go along aren't you?

Bolton Midnight

10th December 2010, 03:12

So anybody got any proof that the smoking ban has been good for the pub trade in the UK?

As I've posted numerous links pointing to the fact that since it was introduced more pubs have been going out of business.

Roamy

10th December 2010, 04:02

I'm not that Fousto would want to 'waste' a buttplug on someone else when he could just use it himself ;) :p :

I was actually saving it for your girl friend :) :eek: :cool:

Bolton Midnight

10th December 2010, 14:23

Roamy

10th December 2010, 15:20

Some places here now have humidors (Cigar Rooms) for smoking. they have done quite well. Others have heated and covered areas outside for smokers. In addition some Cigar shops allow you to bring your own alcohol. I would imagine we will see many "private" dinner clubs coming on line as well.

I don't mind the regulations at all but having a designated area makes it nice for all.

Retro Formula 1

10th December 2010, 15:20

I can only go off

talking to the numerous landlords / landladies I know
the number of pubs boarded up immediately after the ban happened in England
the numerous websites / experts etc that all say the smoking ban was a primary / major factor in the pub closures

vs.

a few fresh air freaks who moan about their shirts not smelling any more with zero evidence to show it is good news for the licensing trade.

I don't know personally of anyone that has stopped going down the boozer because they cannot smoke? I don't know anyone that has stopped working, flying, going to the Cinema, travelling on the tube, bus or train either.

I suppose a few people may have but cannot understand why droves of smokers would abandon the pubs causing thousands to close down and suggest it might be because of other reasons.

Bolton Midnight

10th December 2010, 15:57

Some places here now have humidors (Cigar Rooms) for smoking. they have done quite well. Others have heated and covered areas outside for smokers.

Nu Labour wouldn't allow that.

Pubs that have the room / money have created smoking areas outdoors and they are always without fail the busiest part of the pub, as the vast majority of drinkers are also smokers.

The smokers may still go out but if they go out less it'll have a knock on effect.

The old fashioned mid terrace British pub is the one that'll suffer the most as they have no room to create a smoker area with expensive patio heaters etc and it is them that are really suffering. As the old boy who used to go there might as well stay in and drink cheaper ale from supermarket/off licence and be able to have a smoke with his poison.

Working mens clubs ditto.

BDunnell

10th December 2010, 16:52

Nu Labour wouldn't allow that.

Pubs that have the room / money have created smoking areas outdoors and they are always without fail the busiest part of the pub, as the vast majority of drinkers are also smokers.

No they are not! Your comments are simply untrue, full stop.

MrJan

10th December 2010, 17:30

The old fashioned mid terrace British pub is the one that'll suffer the most as they have no room to create a smoker area with expensive patio heaters etc and it is them that are really suffering. As the old boy who used to go there might as well stay in and drink cheaper ale from supermarket/off licence and be able to have a smoke with his poison.

Working mens clubs ditto.

So nothing to do with working mens clubs and mid-terrace pubs usually been downtrodden, dirty, tired and out of date establishments, generally with decor from the 80s.

There's a little TV programme called Phoenix Nights (you may have heard of it) which pretty much lays out the reasons that WMCs are closing down. It's nothing to do with smoking, it's all about how ****e and depressing they are.

Next week I'm going out with a bunch of blokes from work for a meal and a few drink. We'll probably go to the Conservative Club and it's like stepping back in time. Likewise I often follow Exeter City away and the types of pubs that I usually end up in are the sort that you describe, the midterrace thing with regulars. It's not uncommon to see dirty toilets, peeling wallpaper and barmaids tipping the dregs out of the drip tray into a pint glass, topping it up from the tap and serving it to someone. THey are ****holes, and that's why they close.

Bolton Midnight

10th December 2010, 17:30

I'm sure Peter Falk will prove otherwise, and a petition of 2.5 million disgruntled smokers will no doubt appear on this very thread soon. A few of my mates smoke and I'm yet to hear "sorry mate I'm not coming out on the town tonight because the pubs don't allow you to smoke inside".... If anything the ban has shown what an anti social habit it is because every 15 minutes you get the line, "just nipping out for a fag", which is usually followed by "again?, get a life"... Its amazing how many people have either cut down, or quit altogether, but not everyone really want to hear that. :)

Not every pub is a town centre youth filled noisy fighting/trapping pit you know?

He's probably going out to 'smirt' with some fit lass leaving you to inhale the odour of the bogs.

BDunnell

10th December 2010, 17:34

Not every pub is a town centre youth filled noisy fighting/trapping pit you know?

He's probably going out to 'smirt' with some fit lass leaving you to inhale the odour of the bogs.

Ah, so you equate smoking with being attractive to women, do you? I thought such pathetic attitudes went out years ago.

And is the organisation in which you work as a highly-trained, well-educated health professional aware of your attitudes to smoking? I trust you don't ever pass your wisdom on to patients.

Bolton Midnight

10th December 2010, 17:39

So nothing to do with working mens clubs and mid-terrace pubs usually been downtrodden, dirty, tired and out of date establishments, generally with decor from the 80s.

There's a little TV programme called Phoenix Nights (you may have heard of it) which pretty much lays out the reasons that WMCs are closing down. It's nothing to do with smoking, it's all about how ****e and depressing they are.

Next week I'm going out with a bunch of blokes from work for a meal and a few drink. We'll probably go to the Conservative Club and it's like stepping back in time. Likewise I often follow Exeter City away and the types of pubs that I usually end up in are the sort that you describe, the midterrace thing with regulars. It's not uncommon to see dirty toilets, peeling wallpaper and barmaids tipping the dregs out of the drip tray into a pint glass, topping it up from the tap and serving it to someone. THey are ****holes, and that's why they close.

Phoenix Nights by Peter Kay from err Bolton - follow?

Well that's just about it then, these places aren't for you and your trendy mates so let them shut, so what if they provide a valuable focal point for the local community, you don't like them so sod em. And to think some folk said smokers were selfish!

Talking of fictional pubs

The Grapes - Early Doors
The Archer - 2 pints of lager
Rovers Return - Corrie
The Queen Vic - Eastenders
Winchester Club - Minder
The Wheeltappers and Shunters Social Club

these are exactly the type of places that are facing the axe post Nu Labour's smoking ban

Now somewhere akin to the Woolpack maybe able to survive by becoming a Bistro pub but the old fashioned British boozer

BDunnell

10th December 2010, 17:45

Now somewhere akin to the Woolpack maybe able to survive by becoming a Bistro pub but the old fashioned British boozer

I fear some words of undoubted wisdom are missing from the end of your post there.

By the way, how come many a nice, traditional pub that I frequent when in the UK is still open and seemingly thriving? I can think of many in London, Norwich and Sheffield, for instance, that have not succumbed to unnecessary modern influences and are doing well. But then these are pubs in the real world, not the mystical places where there are more smokers than non-smokers and the busiest bit is the smoking area.

Bolton Midnight

10th December 2010, 17:46

Ah, so you equate smoking with being attractive to women, do you? I thought such pathetic attitudes went out years ago.

And is the organisation in which you work as a highly-trained, well-educated health professional aware of your attitudes to smoking? I trust you don't ever pass your wisdom on to patients.

Haven't you heard of smirting then, and you this ubber intelligent super being, you surprise me ha ha.

It's quieter outside so easier to flirt & smoke with the ladies, give them a chance to sample your amazing personality, so probably best you stay indoors sniffing the urinals.

Oh yes but as I'm the owner it's tough and yep patients often have a chat with me whilst I'm having a smoke outside, a lot often join me.

Bolton Midnight

10th December 2010, 17:48

I fear some words of undoubted wisdom are missing from the end of your post there.

By the way, how come many a nice, traditional pub that I frequent when in the UK is still open and seemingly thriving? I can think of many in Sheffield, for instance, that have not succumbed to unnecessary modern influences and are doing well. But then these are pubs in the real world, not the mystical places where there are more smokers than non-smokers and the busiest bit is the smoking area.

you're full of crap

you are the weakest link

goodbye

BDunnell

10th December 2010, 17:49

Haven't you heard of smirting then, and you this ubber intelligent super being, you surprise me ha ha.

It's quieter outside so easier to flirt & smoke with the ladies, give them a chance to sample your amazing personality, so probably best you stay indoors sniffing the urinals.

Oh yes but as I'm the owner it's tough and yep patients often have a chat with me whilst I'm having a smoke outside, a lot often join me.

You are the owner of a medical facility? Words almost fail me.

BDunnell

10th December 2010, 17:50

you're full of crap

you are the weakest link

goodbye

In what sense am I 'full of crap'? Those were just my experiences, which you seem to reject out of hand. Still, if I have forced you out of this discussion, leaving you more time to give your patients cancer as they breathe in your fag smoke, then so be it.

Bolton Midnight

10th December 2010, 18:08

A HUGE CONCERN

There is no way the Greeks will be able to control their economy and meet the terms of the bailout by the EEC and the IMF. They can't even enforce No Smoking regulations !

The new law bans smoking in tavernas , bistros etc, since 7/1/09.

Look how many cigarettes are in the ashtray in this restaurant ....

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/6623/greecet.jpg

Look in the ASHTRAY, the ASHTRAY, the ASHTRAY! !!!!

donKey jote

10th December 2010, 18:13

if the Irish managed it anyone can :laugh:

anyway that pic looks more like a private wedding party than your average pub scene, apart from the scantily dressed tarts of course :p

Bolton Midnight

10th December 2010, 18:24

if the Irish managed it anyone can :laugh:

anyway that pic looks more like a private wedding party than your average pub scene, apart from the scantily dressed tarts of course :p

So nice to travel and go to places where

the ban doesn't exist
or
is being totally ignored

good on them

BDunnell

10th December 2010, 18:29

Look in the ASHTRAY, the ASHTRAY, the ASHTRAY! !!!!

You seem to be having a mental breakdown before our very eyes.

donKey jote

10th December 2010, 18:31

do girls always wear red crosses on their nipples where you travel, or was it just you being PC for a family forum? :s ailor: :laugh: :bandit:

Bolton Midnight

10th December 2010, 19:26

or was it just you being PC for a family forum? :s ailor: :laugh: :bandit:

Guilty as charged

Well the vibes I'm getting from some folk I suspect they won't have ever seen a naked woman and don't want them be too upset

Daniel

10th December 2010, 20:28

You are the owner of a medical facility? Words almost fail me.

+1

Bolton Midnight

10th December 2010, 20:32

ahh yes t'other Charlie

you two like lovers or something?

MrJan

10th December 2010, 20:49

Phoenix Nights by Peter Kay from err Bolton - follow?

Well that's just about it then, these places aren't for you and your trendy mates so let them shut, so what if they provide a valuable focal point for the local community, you don't like them so sod em. And to think some folk said smokers were selfish!

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA :laugh: :laugh:

You're hilarious, I don't even know where to start. I suppose that it's worth pointing out that I was being sarcastic with the "you may have heard of it" quip, I'm amazed that it went over your head :rolleyes:

Secondly, me trendy? Ha! Don't make me laugh, treacle. It would be pretty difficult for me to be further from 'trendy'.

I'm not letting those pubs shut, I never went to them regularly in the first place. They are closing because no one likes them, just a handful of regulars. If people do actually think of them as 'a valuable focal point' then shirley something as trivial as popping outside for a fag wouldn't be enough to deter them. And if it does then blaming the smoking ban is weak, purely an excuse for people that aren't driven enough to stay in touch with friends.

Daniel

10th December 2010, 20:55

ahh yes t'other Charlie

you two like lovers or something?

Yes, BDunnell is my lover. I wear the pants in the relationship though.

Bolton Midnight

10th December 2010, 21:58

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA :laugh: :laugh:

You're hilarious, I don't even know where to start. I suppose that it's worth pointing out that I was being sarcastic with the "you may have heard of it" quip, I'm amazed that it went over your head :rolleyes:

Secondly, me trendy? Ha! Don't make me laugh, treacle. It would be pretty difficult for me to be further from 'trendy'.

I'm not letting those pubs shut, I never went to them regularly in the first place. They are closing because no one likes them, just a handful of regulars. If people do actually think of them as 'a valuable focal point' then shirley something as trivial as popping outside for a fag wouldn't be enough to deter them. And if it does then blaming the smoking ban is weak, purely an excuse for people that aren't driven enough to stay in touch with friends.

Yes, but of course it was.

They seem to have survived for decades pre ban, and they were just as drab as they are now, nope something else changed - the smoking ban.

Bolton Midnight

10th December 2010, 21:58

Yes, BDunnell is my lover. I wear the pants in the relationship though.

Very pleased for you both, go and keep your bitch happy elsewhere ta

Daniel

10th December 2010, 21:59

Yes, but of course it was.

They seem to have survived for decades pre ban, and they were just as drab as they are now, nope something else changed - the smoking ban.
People have changed. A good deal of people will not want to step into a dark, dank smoke ridden pub which last saw some attention in the 80's.

MrJan

10th December 2010, 22:14

Yes, but of course it was.

They seem to have survived for decades pre ban, and they were just as drab as they are now, nope something else changed - the smoking ban.

Society changed, an unbelieveable amount. Trends change, it's a fact of live. That may mean the clothes that people wear, the food they eat, the things they drink, the music that they listen to, the general way that they live their life...whatever.

Incidentally Phoenix Nights (the show which highlighted the demise of clubland) was filmed long before the smoking ban.

How the **** you ever managed to become the owner of anything more impressive that a Raleigh Burner escapes me.

Daniel

10th December 2010, 22:16

How the **** you ever managed to become the owner of anything more impressive that a Raleigh Burner escapes me.

You've given me an idea! :idea:

Perhaps this is what Bolton Midnight owns? :)
http://www.active-robots.com/products/lego-preschool/9226/9226-500.jpg

BDunnell

10th December 2010, 22:17

How the **** you ever managed to become the owner of anything more impressive that a Raleigh Burner escapes me.

Maybe the top-class public school education he claims to have enjoyed, albeit at an institution he has thus far refused to name, has something to do with it?

Bolton Midnight

10th December 2010, 22:22

People have changed. A good deal of people will not want to step into a dark, dank smoke ridden pub which last saw some attention in the 80's.

So now you speak for these people do you?

They were perfectly happy with their pubs pre smoking ban, clearly aren't now otherwise they'd still be in business rather than shutting at a rate of 5 a day.

Where do you live?

Never heard of a Raleigh Burner- Chipper, Tomahawk, Chopper and Grifter yes - seems like you've got a lot to learn about life in general, kids eh.

Daniel

10th December 2010, 22:25

So now you speak for these people do you?

They were perfectly happy with their pubs pre smoking ban, clearly aren't now otherwise they'd still be in business rather than shutting at a rate of 5 a day.

Where do you live?

Never heard of a Raleigh Burner- Chipper, Tomahawk, Chopper and Grifter yes - seems like you've got a lot to learn about life in general, kids eh.

Where do I live? What business is it to you? :confused:

So I don't speak for these people but you do? :laugh: Like I said the percentage of smokers is getting less and less and it's reached the point where a bigger proportion of people are happy to come home at the end of a night not smelling of smoke than are outraged at not being able to smoke inside.

Bolton Midnight

10th December 2010, 22:49

Where do I live? What business is it to you? :confused:

So I don't speak for these people but you do? :laugh: Like I said the percentage of smokers is getting less and less and it's reached the point where a bigger proportion of people are happy to come home at the end of a night not smelling of smoke than are outraged at not being able to smoke inside.

Just curious as it may well be different where you are than where I am.

I don't have to speak for them as the pubs are shutting that is an indisputable fact. So something must have happened. Mortgage rates went down so folk had more spare cash in their pockets yet the very same people who would go out frequently for a few drinks and a chat with friends or nip down to the club for a pint and game of dominoes. Or retired men who won't have been affected by the recession as their pension remained intact stopped going out during the day, why?

Depends on what age and socio economic group you are talking about as some groups are smoking more since the ban for example.

http://info.cancerresearchuk.org/cancerstats/types/lung/smoking/

This was why I asked where you were as it differs area to area, if your local is some nice rural gastro pub then you'll probably not have noticed much change (maybe even miracle of miracles a slight increase) but if you live in area that used to be filled with small 'locals' then you will have noticed them being boarded up, pubs that have survived many a recession, world wars even but put out of business by meddling Labour busy bodies.

Even the big boys agree it has had an effect

JD Wetherspoon pub chain announced that it would scale back its plans for expansion after a fall in lager and spirits sales, blaming the ban.