Return to the "traditional" numbering system?

[maximilian]

Perhaps we can start a poll on this, but I was wondering how you all feel about this issue. I miss the old days where certain numbers became associated with certain teams (even though I know it was a bit of an illusion that is heavily biased by WHEN I started watching), but there is something to be said about the "brand" of a number associated with a team, and I feel the constant changing of numbers according to position in the championship hasn't been an improvement at all, and even somewhat takes away from the tradition of the sport.

My proposal would be to assign as many "historically relevant" traditional numbers as possible, such as:

3/4 Mercedes (old Tyrrell numbers)
5/6 Williams
7/8 McLaren
11/12 Lotus
15/16 Renault
23/24 ToroRosso (old Minardi numbers)
27/28 Ferrari
29/30 Sauber

and the rest, somewhat arbitrarily based on positions

9/10 RedBull
13/14 not used! I never liked the "shift" in numbers after the blank 13
17/18 Force India
19/20 Virgin
21/22 Hispania

The 1/2 of course would go to the team with the WDC. I would leave the traditional slots of the team with 1/2 for the season unused (i.e. if RedBull are champions and use 1/2, the 9/10 won't be used that year, etc.) to avoid a switching around of the numbers.

What do you all think?

[I am evil Homer]

To me Ferrari will always be 27 and 28! TBH I prefer it with the 1/2 going to the winning constructor

[inimitablestoo]

I liked it back in the day, but even then changes would still be made (case in point: AGS started with #14, went to 40/41 [!] for a year, then ended up at 17/18). I quite liked it with those apparently random changes (usually made to clear up gaps that had appeared in the entry with teams dropping out or expanding), without which I think I'd have got bored with teams constantly using the same numbers. Looking back, too, the numbers were effectively decided by historical accident (1972 constructors' championship positions) - if teams were given "fixed" numbers I'd prefer them to have a free choice, beyond #1 for the champion, of anything between 0 and 99, like many non-FIA-directly-governed championships do.

Of course, there are a couple of other points to make: 1. The standardised number system had roughly the same length of use as the numbers that changed on a race-by-race basis between 1950 and '73, which I don't think anyone would want to go back to - even the World Rally Championship doesn't do that any more (I can see some people under 20 now looking startled that it ever did... :) ). The current meritocracy only has a few more years to go to surpass both of those. 2. The FIA did propose reintroducing the old system for 2002, only to met by a howl of protests from the teams - notably Sauber, who looked set to miss out on a hard-earned 7 and 8 from a splendid fourth in the championship. So maybe it doesn't matter to the teams as much as we think?

Oh yes, and there is a third point, a drum I've banged so many times before it shall soon need reskinning: with the teams making car numbers so small on the machines it practically needs a microscope on some of them, sadly it doesn't really matter what numbers you put on them these days... (take a bow Ferrari, McLaren and - for a while there - Sauber, who are notable exceptions this season)

[maximilian]

The FIA did propose reintroducing the old system for 2002, only to met by a howl of protests from the teams - notably Sauber, who looked set to miss out on a hard-earned 7 and 8 from a splendid fourth in the championship. So maybe it doesn't matter to the teams as much as we think?
Yeah, the teams don't seem to care much, I think this would be more for the fans. Although I do think the teams are missing an opportunity to merchandise their "traditional" numbers. If you see the cult created around numbers in NASCAR, and how important they have become in merchandise branding, I see lots of potential to do the same in F1.

I also wouldn't mind the completely open system with any numbers possible between 0 and 00 :)

[steveaki13]

I would be happy to see it come back.

An example where it would be useful is when a penalty is given and the caption on screen says "a drive thru for car 15".
Although I have watched F1 for 15+ years. I still think "well who is that?" and have to start working it out.

Where as if they said "Drive thru for Car 5. Or Car 27. We would know immediatley it was a Williams or Ferrari.

[Mark]

Absolutely! The current system has eroded the numbers so much as to make them redundant!

[gloomyDAY]

Just have numbers like in NASCAR or MotoGP.

Each racer gets his own number. I like that system because it distinguishes racers immediately, so you don't have to fumble around with numbers. For example, Rossi is #46. If Hamilton were number #55, then we'd always know his number while he was going around on-track.

Also, would help a lot in terms of marketing.

[maximilian]

Mods, can we get a poll please? Perhaps:

- stick to the current system of merit based numbering
- return to the classic team based numbering
- adopt a NASCAR/MotoGP style numbering system based on drivers, not teams
- other (please elaborate)

Am I forgetting other choices? :)

[Sonic]

Just have numbers like in NASCAR or MotoGP.

Each racer gets his own number. I like that system because it distinguishes racers immediately, so you don't have to fumble around with numbers. For example, Rossi is #46. If Hamilton were number #55, then we'd always know his number while he was going around on-track.

Also, would help a lot in terms of marketing.

I'd be all for this.

[Rollo]

Just have numbers like in NASCAR or MotoGP.

Each racer gets his own number. I like that system because it distinguishes racers immediately, so you don't have to fumble around with numbers. For example, Rossi is #46. If Hamilton were number #55, then we'd always know his number while he was going around on-track.

Also, would help a lot in terms of marketing.

Amen to this.

Not only this but as Ferrari's 27 and Damon Hill's 0 proves, the number which becomes part of their identity, remains long after they've retired.
Mini in their marketing blurbs and for their WRC are still using the number 37, some 46 years after Paddy Hopkirk won the Monte Carlo Rally.

[jens]

An example where it would be useful is when a penalty is given and the caption on screen says "a drive thru for car 15".
Although I have watched F1 for 15+ years. I still think "well who is that?" and have to start working it out.


I usually haven't had any problem with the numbering based on WCC. Actually it is quite adequate in terms of showing team's relative position in the pecking order. But in 2010 the numbers have become a bit of a mess in midfield due to messing with last year's WCC order (Williams finished 7th and races now with numbers 9 and 10), so I find myself pondering, who could possibly be car #17 as I can't be sure this is a driver from the team, who finished 8th in last year's WCC.

But the idea of driver-specific numbers is something that could be worth looking into.

[Hawkmoon]

As long as they remove the rule that says cars will line up in number order if qualifying is cancelled then I am all for it. Ferrari should be running with 27/28 when they aren't wearing their rightful 1/2. ;)

[Dr. Krogshöj]

I agree.

[CNR]

even the driver number

eg.
rossi 46
stoner 27



Murphy joined the newly-formed Kmart Racing ... He is one of the best known V8 Supercar drivers (car No 51 since 2001)

[emporer_k]

I've allways wanted to go back to the old numbering system, maybee with a tweak or two like the WDC'c team mate not becoming car no. 2 but sticking to one of their teams main numbers.

[Rollo]

I've had a think (and a read through some old threads) and came up with:

0 5 - Williams
7 8 - McLaren
9 99 - Virgin
11 12 - Lotus
15 16 - Renault
19 79 - Virgin
26 50 - Force India
27 28 - Ferrari
33 34 - Hispania
61 62 - Sauber
82 83 - Red Bull Racing
84 85 - Toro Rosso
658 722 - Mercedes

Some of them are historically significant even beyond the race team, and in one example I simply picked them because it was cool.

[Duchess]

I would be all for driver numbers! Team numbers I never really cared about because I distinguished cars by colour and not by number. Then again I'm a fairly young F1 viewer so I never had much of a chance to grasp the historical significance of certain car numbers.

Driver numbers would definitely be a great addition for the merchandising, not to mention for identification given that some drivers *cough*Vettel*cough* change helmets more often than I can keep track.

[Ari]

Just have numbers like in NASCAR or MotoGP.

Each racer gets his own number. I like that system because it distinguishes racers immediately, so you don't have to fumble around with numbers. For example, Rossi is #46. If Hamilton were number #55, then we'd always know his number while he was going around on-track.

Also, would help a lot in terms of marketing.

Is a very good point.

Someone keen on the sport would probably know Hamiltons current number based on his finishing last year, but others may not.

As for Rossi... EVERYONE knows he's #46. Doesn't matter what happened last year, that's his number. Everyone knows Stoner is #27.

I like the idea of drivers having their own numbers or a team having numbers.

The current system absolutely sucks and was made a mockery of last year with all the driver changes. So Schumacher walks back into F1 and gets what number? Was a mess.

[Sonic]

Is a very good point.

As for Rossi... EVERYONE knows he's #46. Doesn't matter what happened last year, that's his number. Everyone knows Stoner is #27.
.

I also like the fact that in Moto the world champ can, if they wish, change to number 1 - I believe Stoner swapped when he was champion.

So what numbers do we think the current crop would plump for? Just for fun obviously.

Perhaps Rubens would go for No. 93 to remind us all just how long he's been with us.

[ArrowsFA1]

The numbers on F1 cars don't really matter because you can barely see them!!

[Sonic]

The numbers on F1 cars don't really matter because you can barely see them!!

This is true but easily fixed with a mandatory sized box in which to place the number as is the case in the vast majority of junior series.

[Mark]

I don't like the idea of driver based numbers. F1 has always been about the teams and that's the way it should stay.

The outline given in the original post seems reasonable. I guess the best way to make it fair is on a first come - first served basis where the teams get to pick their numbers in order of their position in the 2010 constructors championship and those are the ones they keep forever after! Of course the team with the WDC should always have 1 & 2.

[Garry Walker]

Cant say I really care about the numbering system in F1, it doesnt matter when it comes to racing and I watch F1 for that, not for the glamour or anything like that.

[Dave B]

I couldn't give a stuff. I don't attach any significance to the numbers, and certainly don't use them for identification. The teams have liveries, the T-cameras are colour-coded, the drivers have unique helmets; I really don't see a problem.

[D28]

The numbers on F1 cars don't really matter because you can barely see them!!

Absolutely. The last GP I attended, I could not distinguish the team cars by number, due to commercial decals obliterating the view. Now NASCAR does have visible numbers!

[inimitablestoo]

This is true but easily fixed with a mandatory sized box in which to place the number as is the case in the vast majority of junior series.
Another of my soapboxes - have a rule that the only thing you're allowed to put on the side of the rear wing is a VERY LARGE number.

I for one don't like the driver/number rather than car/number idea either (as used by the BTCC and MotoGP). And it does seem odd that the Race Control messages refer to "car 3" or "car 15" or whatever, when the race numbers make no appearance on any other official caption through the race weekend (they were even dropped from the identifiers e.g. "Jenson Button/McLaren Mercedes" some years back).

Perhaps ultimately we'll go down the A1GP route: no numbers, just a three-letter box with the driver's code (as per the on-screen graphics, VET or WEB or ALO etc) on instead. Might even be the lesser of many evils alongside a medals system, one-make chassis, double-headers with reversed grids...

[V12]

Doesn't really matter much when numbers are so small and rarely with a second set on the rear wing endplates or sidepods like there used to be. In fact I've noticed Force India don't appear to have ANY numbers on their car, they actually have them in the mid section of the front wing under the nose - how pointless is that!!! :mad:

If they were going to return to a "traditional" system, rather resurrecting what has gone, I'd rather they did what they did in 1974 - set the numbers according to the last year's standings (as they currently do) and freeze them from that point, with the old swap system in place for the drivers champion's team - and see what develops.

[maximilian]

I might be stretching it, but could it be that one reason the numbers kept getting smaller and smaller is exactly that the numbering system eliminated the number identity in the first place? Seems to have happened at about the same time they switched the numbering system. It's not even that they don't have the SPACE, they just make them small anyways!

Personally I think the "personal" numbers are fun, and I much prefer that over the current system. I am a little torn, but I think I would still more prefer the traditional team numbers over personal numbers, but either one would be a huge improvement.

[fandango]

The only thing I don't really like about the numbers is that you can't see them.

I liked the old swapping system better than the current system, although 'm not that bothered. I think that there should be some sort of symbol on the cars that are the WCC, maybe a laurel wreath around the clearly marked numbers, is that too cheesy?

I don't really subscribe to the idea of certain numbers "belonging" to certain teams. Sure, I associate 27 and 28 with Ferrari, but weren't they only their numbers for a few seasons? And that only came about because of Alan Jones' WDC win in 1980 in the Williams.

[Tazio]

I think the pilots should be able to choose any one or two digit number that isn't already being used.

On a side note, I have a conspiracy theory that Bernie and the corporate sponsors are against it because fans would want hats, and other apparel with the team color auto brand badge, and or just the drivers number rather than:


http://www.formulaworldshop.com/images/autographs/a10hamiltoncap.jpg

or


http://www.gp1st.net/images/ferrari%20barcode%20cap.jpg

[Hawkmoon]

I don't really subscribe to the idea of certain numbers "belonging" to certain teams. Sure, I associate 27 and 28 with Ferrari, but weren't they only their numbers for a few seasons? And that only came about because of Alan Jones' WDC win in 1980 in the Williams.

Ferrari picked up 27/28 in 1981 and ran with them every year from then until 1996 when the numbering system changed. The only exception being 1990 when Prost brought the 1/2 from McLaren.

In relation to Ferrari's 60 years of grand prix racing it's a relatively short time. It's also a time when they failed to win a WDC so you would think we Tifosi would shun the numbers. The opposite is true of course and we look upon them with affection, if it's possible to be affectionate towards a digit. Perhaps the standing of Gilles Villeneuve and Jean Alesi has helped cement #27 in the hearts of the Tifosi?

On another note, I'm pretty sure the FIA wanted to go back to the pre-'96 numbering system in 2002 but Sauber objected because they finished 4th in 2001 and were due to get 7/8. They didn't want stay with 14/15 or whatever it was they had.

[Koz]

It seems kinda awkward to me, numbering makes people unique. Who would you give the number to? The Team or the driver?

If you give drivers a number it ends as branding, which as soon as he leaves the team will go with him. Do you really want to market a number from the past that is now associated with a rival team?
What happens if a driver is substituted? Does the number change for the reserve driver?

You could give the teams numbers, seeing as F1 is a TEAM sport. And that works, might save a bit not having to change the numbers around every year. But I'm sure sponsors would rather pay a fatter Exchequer to have no.1 on their car.

2c.

[Rollo]

The opposite is true of course and we look upon them with affection, if it's possible to be affectionate towards a digit. Perhaps the standing of Gilles Villeneuve and Jean Alesi has helped cement #27 in the hearts of the Tifosi?

Maybe the fact that the front door of Museo Galleria Ferrari happens to be 27 Viale Alfredo Dino Ferrari, Maranello. They changed the number of the door after they were given the numbers but haven't changed it back since.

The tour of the factory is well worth going on if you get the chance.

[Valve Bounce]

Sounds like a good idea

[Mark]

Drivers shouldn't get the numbers. Drivers come and go very reguarly, teams tend to stick around that bit longer!

[Sonic]

Drivers shouldn't get the numbers. Drivers come and go very reguarly, teams tend to stick around that bit longer!

Unless you are US(uck)F1 ;)

[nigelred5]

I'm definitely in favor of assigning a number to the driver! :look:

I've always asociated Nigel and Mario Andretti with number 5.
Michael Andretti was almost always 6 in CART.
Michael Schumacher certainly got to carry the number 1 alot :)

27 should always be assigned to the lead :uhoh: Ferrari, but it will always be Gilles' number.

[Somebody]

Perhaps ultimately we'll go down the A1GP route: no numbers, just a three-letter box with the driver's code (as per the on-screen graphics, VET or WEB or ALO etc) on instead.

I would be all for this.

[call_me_andrew]

I couldn't give a stuff. I don't attach any significance to the numbers, and certainly don't use them for identification. The teams have liveries, the T-cameras are colour-coded, the drivers have unique helmets; I really don't see a problem.

Here are the helmets I've memorized: Lewis drives a McLaren with a yellow helmet, the other McLaren driver's helmet is not yellow.

I never remember which color T-bar indicates the #1 driver or who each team's #1 driver is.

I also remember watching Scott Speed being interviewed in 2006 wearing a hat that said 21 and I thought, "I bet that hat will be out of date next season." Next year, he was 19. I like to know my merchandise will have staying power after I buy it.

IndyCar does a fine job of putting a large number on the rear end plate where it is easy to see. So that's one thing they do well.

http://www.racingnation.com/images/column_photos/080706patrickpits.jpg

[DazzlaF1]

Here are the helmets I've memorized: Lewis drives a McLaren with a yellow helmet, the other McLaren driver's helmet is not yellow.

I never remember which color T-bar indicates the #1 driver or who each team's #1 driver is.

I also remember watching Scott Speed being interviewed in 2006 wearing a hat that said 21 and I thought, "I bet that hat will be out of date next season." Next year, he was 19. I like to know my merchandise will have staying power after I buy it.

IndyCar does a fine job of putting a large number on the rear end plate where it is easy to see. So that's one thing they do well.

http://www.racingnation.com/images/column_photos/080706patrickpits.jpg

Its a great idea but something the teams would never want to consider doing, I remember Maurice Hamilton on 5live talking about it during one of the FP sessions mentioning this to the Sauber team about reserving the entire rear-wing endplates for their race numbers to which their managing director said "are you kidding, its prime advertising space, we'd lose a potential $2.5million in sponsorship."

[maximilian]

Well, from your responses so far, it seems that at least from the FANs' point of view, almost no one likes the current numbering system, and would prefer either a return to the traditional team numbers, or the introduction of driver-specific numbering. Perhaps F1 should take note. :rolleyes:

[jens]

Well, from your responses so far, it seems that at least from the FANs' point of view, almost no one likes the current numbering system, and would prefer either a return to the traditional team numbers, or the introduction of driver-specific numbering. Perhaps F1 should take note. :rolleyes:

The bottom line is that in the end it doesn't matter really. They are just numbers. There isn't anything inherently wrong with numbers based on WCC order. If we reinstated the "old classical" numbers, it could just as easily be asked that why an underperforming team (aka Tyrrell in the past) should have such low numbers (3/4), while a top team like Ferrari has big numbers like 27/28. It wouldn't make much sense. :p : But perhaps the main idea I got from this thread, is that the screen graphics should really use a name instead of a number to tell the viewers, who has got a penalty.

[BobbyC]

In NASCAR and IndyCar, numbers belong to teams, although some teams will number based on a sponsor or a driver's request. Some teams may want a large number of marketing. Red Bull's primary NASCAR Sprint Cup team uses #83 for 8.3 Ounces (250mL in a can of Red Bull). Stewart-Haas has both numbers based on drivers' personal preferences (#14 to honour Foyt, #39 for Newman's dirt track roots). Richard Childress' #3 (which he used for much of his driving and owning days, and uses it in the CWTS) honoured Junior Johnson from his driving days (and MLB manager Ned Yost wore #3 to honour a driver from Childress). NASCAR does not have a "champion #1" rule for marketing reasons and when that number can be stylised and made into its own trademark, why change a good thing? Some fonts are easily identified with some teams. The Gibbs #18 hasn't changed since it first was used nearly 20 years ago and even their newly signed motocross rider, whose AMA national number is #18, has switched to the Gibbs-style #18 for his first year with JGRMX (although some authorities aren't too happy with his plans to use the font associated with Gibbs).

In MotoGP and IndyCar, the champion does not need #1. The IndyCar trend started with Foyt Racing in 1998 (#14 is Foyt, why change a good thing), Helmegarn Racing in 2000 (fans wanted the team's numerical identify), Panther (#4 had a double meaning at the team since Pennzoil with JR's #4 in 1980 and co-owner Jim Harbaugh, who wore #4 in the NFL except in Charlotte, where he wore #14), Penske (Hornish kept his old #6 since he never went #1 in any of his Panther years), and now Ganassi (after Scott Dixon won and went #1, the team had its #2 driver Renna die in testing, and the team didn't win a race the next season; besides, it's another team-identity issue with #9 and #10).

In fact many teams in US domestic racing have marketed their teams on the numbers. Ganassi #9 and #10, Penske #3, #6, and all-series #12, Panther #4, Foyt #14, and the likes. NASCAR it's Hendrick's #5, Childress' #29, #31, and #33, Roush's #6 and #16, Gibbs #18 and #20, and Petty's #43. Those identities sell very well. If F1 teams did that they'd sell too.