Best Driver in F1...

[Robinho]

came accross this article earlier and thought it was a decent piece that is pretty hard to find much fault with, i hope Kubica gets a decent car soon - as good as this season has been I can only imagine how much better it might have been if Robert was in a race winning car as well

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/9080455.stm

[Robinho]

i think at the moment that Kubica is the equal of anyone out there, however he is performing at this level without the pressure of expected race wins and championship contention, it will be interesting to see if he can keep up the intensity in the heat of a championship battle.

its only my opinion but i think he probably will, he has every chance of being in the battle with Hamilton and Vettel for a number of years

[UltimateDanGTR]

Kubica has been brilliant this year for me. He is the equal of Vettel, Hamilton and Alonso for me. I also think you could throw Webber's name into that ring, for this year at least.

If he gets a chance in a championship-capable car like Lewis, Fernando, Seb and Mark have already had/are currently having, Then I would be very surprised if he didnt become world champion.

The guy is quick, consistent, fair and very level headed. The other guys we consider the 'superstars' dont necessarily have all of those qualities. (yet)

Im a big fan of the article because I agree with its principle. Lets hope Kubi gets a chance to win a world championship one day. He's the sort of guy who I'd expect to take any chance he got.

[ioan]

I agree he's been excellent and outdriven the Renault on many ocassions, but I can't say he's proved himself overall since he came into F1 to be as complete as both Hamilton and Alonso. He's very close as is Sebastian Vettel, but I think we are going to see better from him over the next couple of years. I think if he was in either of the top three teams right now he'd be a real nuissance, which is why it'll be very interesting to see whether Massa will be leaving the Scuderia in the winter. Kubica is a top driver, but apart from a few great drives, he's been outscored twice in his short career by Heidfeld. He may have been unlucky up until now and I think he needs a race win uner his belt to push his stock up in the driver market. His win in Canada was rather lucky and inherited, and it would be nice for him to get a victory of his own making IMO. He certainly deserves it after his performance in Japan. :)

^ what he said. Kubica needs to prove he is as good as some people think he is. For now it is a mix of some very good drives and a lot of hype.

[keysersoze]

It's difficult to take all the drooling over Kubica seriously, since his performances have almost NO CONTEXT. His teammate is a ROOKIE, folks.

If so, Nick Heidfeld should get some stinking love around here. After all, he was every bit a match for RK in all those years together at Sauber.

[Big Ben]

^ what he said. Kubica needs to prove he is as good as some people think he is. For now it is a mix of some very good drives and a lot of hype.


and above all he's friends with Alonso but I agree he should have at least won the wdc this year in the 4-5th best car in f1.

[maximilian]

I would love to see Kubica in a top car, if for nothing else to once and for all put the hype to rest. Alonso as his team mate would hopefully silence most of all that.

I am not an Alonso "fan", but I must acknowledge that he is probably the overall best driver out there, combining pure speed, his control of and ability to elevate and push his own team to new heights, good performances in a variety of different situations, and the ability to close the deal when it really counts.

Hamilton has great speed and is brilliant in most situations, but he does seem to have a bit of a tendency to choke when it counts. If it wasn't for Glock's unlikely DNF at the last moment, he would have ended up choking away 2 WDCs in a row.

[ShiftingGears]

At least Kubica has been very consistent this year, something which cannot be said about any of the drivers in contention for the WDC.

[Valve Bounce]

I reckon Bunsen is the best driver in F1.

[Ranger]

came accross this article earlier and thought it was a decent piece that is pretty hard to find much fault with, i hope Kubica gets a decent car soon - as good as this season has been I can only imagine how much better it might have been if Robert was in a race winning car as well

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/9080455.stm

Mark Hughes is as bad as Peter Windsor. I see a lot of subjectiveness and little fact.

Case in point: The fact that Heidfeld beat Kubica in two of three years they were team-mates is a fact which is conveniently ignored in Hughes' article. I could go on.

Kubica is an excellent driver having a stellar season, no doubt helped by Petrov being rubbish. However, Hughes' article is just an opinion that is not better than anything a member of this forum could post... just my opinion.

[Rollo]

I think that the most reliable opinion in the long run is... ME :D



Quite frankly I don't think Webber has a WDC in him. He's probably as good as Gerhard Berger was or even DC. Webber would make a solid number 2 behind the champion.
I think the only drivers out there who are capable of taking home a title are Rakka, Alonso, Button and maybe even Montoya (notwithstanding MS who is the best driver the world has ever seen).

In a thread about Lewis:

In terms of talent, he's one of the top three drivers currently in Formula One, and possibly I think only one of about 6 drivers out there with the potential to be World Champion (and two have already done so).


Rakka, Alonso, Button, Lewis have all been champions. Personally I still don't think that Webber has the bottle even to win 2010, and will either suffer a retirement or will squander the lead somewhere.
One retirement or 11th position from Webber is enough to blow this pop stand wide open.

Alonso, Hamilton, Button, Vettel, are still the top four drivers in terms of sheer talent.

[Tazio]

:s ailor: The Boss, and Fred > Kubinski

[Hondo]

I was going to vote for Trulli. It's hard to believe that a driver could be so average for so many years and still find someone to pay him to sit in their car and piddle around the track. That's a skilled driver. BUT, I have to switch and vote for Heidfeld. Here's a guy who is at least as average, if not more so, than Trulli and had finally been eased out of Formula 1 only to be whisked back to replace a driver that never should have been in Formula 1 by a team owner that should have known better in both cases. Even more outstanding, after learning he'd lose his seat at the end of the season regardless, he scored some points in only his second race back, trying to build up the old cv.

So the best driver in Formula 1 is Nick Heidfeld, a man who shouldn't be there but is, with points.

[CNR]

:s ailor: The Boss, and Fred > Kubinski
of cause cheat lie and steal is going to be better then Kubinski

[Kevincal]

Best drivers in F1? Look at the points, thats all.. lol.. Not up for debate really.

[Shifter]

Case in point: The fact that Heidfeld beat Kubica in two of three years they were team-mates is a fact which is conveniently ignored in Hughes' article. I could go on.

As the resident rabid Kubica fan, I concede Heidfeld did a better job with a poor car in 2009. 2007 was RK's first full season in F1, and was team'd against the experienced NH...and one crash took RK out of both the Canadian AND U.S. Grand Prixs, so I'm not certain 2007 should be considered a valid measuring stick. Furthermore, I also believe that Heidfeld is a FANTASTIC driver as well and has shown remarkable racecraft throughout his career, so RK had a heck of a teammate during his first 3 seasons.

I simply feel that RK has now fully matured and is back in a somewhat decent car. I think that when RK's time comes in a car that can again challenge for WDC he now has the talent to prevail...my opinon of course!

[truefan72]

Mark Hughes is as bad as Peter Windsor. I see a lot of subjectiveness and little fact.

Case in point: The fact that Heidfeld beat Kubica in two of three years they were team-mates is a fact which is conveniently ignored in Hughes' article. I could go on.

Kubica is an excellent driver having a stellar season, no doubt helped by Petrov being rubbish. However, Hughes' article is just an opinion that is not better than anything a member of this forum could post... just my opinion.

agreed. and For a while that BMW was very competitive. I think that Kubica is a good driver but usually fades towards the end of races. With the one exception of Australia 2009. Vettel I actually rate below Kubica because he is more about pace in a good car than pure racecraft. And I don;t want people to go on about the STR in 2008 because by halfway through that season, it was a damn good car, even better than the RBR that season. Vettel is like Massa, a frontrunner. Webber to me is the driver on that step below Hamilton and Alonso on par with kubica.
Next down that list is the line of Vettel, Rosberg, Massa and yes, kobayashi

[F1boat]

Until a driver is put to the pressure of fighting for the WDC it is quite pointless to speculate how good they are. Fisichella was thought to be a great driver, but in the end was just soild. I think that with Heidfeld the case is similar. Good in a bad car, average in a good one.
I think that RK is a very good driver, but about the best - too early to say. From historical point of view, from me there is no doubt that Michael Schumacher is the best driver, at least from the current stars, as his prime he made spectacular races. Unfortunately, age is an enemy even he can not hope to overcome and now I have to agree with people who believe that Alonso and Hamilton are the best. It is true that both sometimes make costly mistakes, but in the end they are formidable rivals, always fast, always a threat, with never say never attitude. Jenson Button is a very good and extremely intelligent driver, but he hasn't the pure pace of FA and LH. Same about Webber. Vettel I think is very quick, but too immature.
From the rest, in his prime Massa is spectacular, but like MS, he is struggling badly with his tyres. Barrichello still has fire in him, but I think that we can all agree that he is not the most consistent driver. And there is Nico, who, just like Kubica, can not be judged properly until and if the right car and the chance arrive. I personally think that he is more like Heidfeld than like Kubica or Webber, but we will see.

[ShiftingGears]

and above all he's friends with Alonso but I agree he should have at least won the wdc this year in the 4-5th best car in f1.

LOL

[SGWilko]

One point to consider also is that Kubica is not fighting for a WDC, and there is no pressure on him this year.

As a result I think his driving is measured and we are seeing the best of him.

How he performs when the pressure is really on is something we have yet to see from Robert, and whether, like all the other top drivers, he succumbs to errors and brainfade.....

[Arjuna]

Yuji Ide :)

We can vote for someone as the best driver for different reasons, but obviously the best must prove themselves to be a champion. Mostly of us rate Alonso and Hamilton in tie, each of them have their strength and weakness. Perhaps Hamilton is faster, but Alonso proved himself contribute to tactic strategical on how to develop cars like Renault to be a winning car and fix Ferrari problem so that they can challenge for the title this year, is a plus point for him.

I think those currently driving are the best drivers. In case the cars are good enough to put them at the front they might be able to show the talent. Before driving Ferrari, and had the best achievement of only a point behind the champion of 2008, we may rate Massa was an average driver at Sauber.

Besides names mentioned above, perhaps drivers like Sutil, kobayashi, Buemi, or event Glock and Alguersuari are good provided the cars are in good pace.

[Retro Formula 1]

Kubica has POTENTIAL. We saw the potential in Hamiltons first year and he has delivered that into a championship. Kubica needs a car that can compete and lets see what the pressure does.

At the moment, it's a free ride with a #2 that's making up numbers and no expectations.

Personally, I think he has great potential but want to see him race against a quality team mate. He hardly blew Nick away for the 3 and a half years did he? Now though, he has matured and should be in a position to make a real challenge.

[ArrowsFA1]

Kubica is not the best driver in F1 because he's in a Renault and isn't challenging for the WDC. Why isn't he in one of the three top teams if he's one of the best? Because the six best drivers are already in the top seats?

How many of the current F1 drivers could win races in the Red Bull?

How many of the current F1 drivers could win a championship in the Red Bull?

[I am evil Homer]

I agree....he's certainly skilled and has talent of that there is no doubt. But until he gets a top seat and has to drive under severe pressure we won't know how good he is. Hamilton and Alonso have both had that and both won the title.

And as Arrows says if he good why isn't in a top seat already? I'd suggest that's because while he's shown flashes of speed he's not set F1 alight.

[Retro Formula 1]

Kubica is not the best driver in F1 because he's in a Renault and isn't challenging for the WDC. Why isn't he in one of the three top teams if he's one of the best? Because the six best drivers are already in the top seats?

How many of the current F1 drivers could win races in the Red Bull?

How many of the current F1 drivers could win a championship in the Red Bull?

This story reminds me very much of the Vettel hype. Seb is undoubtedly quick but has he the temperament. Webber is slower but with a stronger racing brain at the moment.

You need to be exceptionally quick like Hamilton to make allowances for a lack of racing intelligence and I don't know if Seb is there yet.

Similarly, I think Kube is quick but untested. However he certainly deserves that chance and will get it.

Problem is that Alonso is pretty much the complete package, Hamilton will get more canny as will Seb and Kube will be pitted against the strongest F1 fields of all time even if no further drivers emerge at the fore.

Will be an interesting couple of years.

[markabilly]

based on results, the best remains.....Schuie.

everyone else will need another five or six years, probably more, to catch up.Now everyone go back to sleep and stop dreaming.

Now as to any driver is or is NOT in a top seat, who is excellent or may have plenty of potential or hidden talent or even recognized talent, the answer is simple:

$+ car>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>talent.

everything else is just speculation

(and the overwhelming majority of the grid could win races in the current red bull in the current grid of cars)

[Koz]

Because Webber has been in RBR for 4 years now? Why would they want to change their solid #2? Vettel was their shiny star.
Because Lewis was RBR's genetically modified how grown wonder child. Same goes for Lewis.
Because Massa was Ferrari's boy, and now bitchboy. And because money came with Alonso.
And finally would you choose between two WDC

I don't see any spots open for him.

I'm sure a fair few drivers could win with RBR.

[maximilian]

I think when it's all said and done, Robert Kubica will fit neatly into the "consummate racing professional" category, together with drivers such as Felipe Massa, David Coulthard, Gerhard Berger: drivers that undoubtedly have talent, that are amongst the best in the business for an extended period of time, and that have frequent flashes of speed and brilliance, winning races and usually among the quickest out there, but that ultimately lack that final spark, that final ounce of speed and performance to be champion.

[wedge]

Mark Hughes has been banging on about Kubica for a while now to the point that I find tiresome and off putting even though I rate Kubica.

The biggest problem RK has to face is finding the right team and hoping they give him a top car because his other mates are in better teams.

[fandango]

What's interesting about Kubica is how he has got the Renault team focussed on him. It's hard to fill the space left by a star like Alonso, just look at what happened at Renault in 2007. Kubica has obviously impressed the team, and they feel they can win with him if they give him the car.

The wheel falling off was a big mess, though, and it's up to the driver to lead a team out of a mistake like that, and make sure it never happens again, on HIS car at least. (Didn't something similar happen to Alonso in Hungary once with Renault?)

So he's shown he has the speed and commitment to the team, but Kubica needs something more, something that will make his team sure that if they're not perfect then another team will take him on.

I reckon he'd be great at Red Bull after Webber retires, to keep Vettel on his toes...

[maximilian]

I reckon he'd be great at Red Bull after Webber retires, to keep Vettel on his toes...
That is if Vettel actually STAYS at RedBull. He may well be lured away by another of the big-3 teams. I think it's safe to say that all of them (McLaren, Ferrari, Mercedes) have an interest in signing him up away from RedBull. This is another reason I am convinced RedBull needs to start developing their next star quickly to fill a possible void left by Vettel's departure and Webber's retirement. They need to kick out at least one of their ToroRosso drivers, and put Ricciardo in there... with Vergne to follow ASAP. By now it's pretty clear that neither Buemi nor Algaeboy will be the next Vettel, so it's time to move on.

[Tazio]

of cause cheat lie and steal is going to be better then Kubinski :s ailor: Did you mean to say of course? :fasttalk: :grenade: :)

[jens]

Often something special can be felt about Kubica's driving. He seems to have it all. Not just very fast, but also in terms of personality he leaves an impression of traits as ultimate commitment, mindset and mental strength. For some reason I don't see him choking in the way Hamilton or Vettel have been doing, even in a top car battling for WDC. Probably it would be a stretch to say that he is the best, but I don't see a reason, why he shouldn't be considered to be among the best.


Until a driver is put to the pressure of fighting for the WDC it is quite pointless to speculate how good they are. Fisichella was thought to be a great driver, but in the end was just soild. I think that with Heidfeld the case is similar.

The difference is that Fisichella was always inconsistent and prone to choking under pressure, even if he was impressing in midfield teams. I don't see any such weaknesses in Kubica's application to racing. They are all different cases, also Heidfeld is not similar to Fisichella - one is consistent and doesn't make mistakes, the other is the opposite of it, but perhaps with more spectacular heights than what Heidi has had.


I was going to vote for Trulli. It's hard to believe that a driver could be so average for so many years and still find someone to pay him to sit in their car and piddle around the track. That's a skilled driver.

Hard to believe? Gascoyne has said that Trulli is the fastest driver he has ever worked with. :p :

[CNR]

Originally Posted by thunderbolt http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/aria/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=850754#post850754)
of cause cheat lie and steal is going to be better then Kubinski


:s ailor: Did you mean to say of course?
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/cause
cause
1. a. The producer of an effect, result, or consequence.
b. The one, such as a person, event, or condition, that is responsible for an action or result.

2. A basis for an action or response; a reason: The doctor's report gave no cause for alarm.
3. A goal or principle served with dedication and zeal: "the cause of freedom versus tyranny" (Hannah Arendt).
4. The interests of a person or group engaged in a struggle: "The cause of America is in great measure the cause of all mankind" (Thomas Paine).
5. Law a. A ground for legal action.
b. A lawsuit.

6. A subject under debate or discussion.
tr.v. caused, caus·ing, caus·es 1. To be the cause of or reason for; result in.
2. To bring about or compel by authority or force: The moderator invoked a rule causing the debate to be ended.

:fasttalk: :grenade: :)

[wedge]

What's interesting about Kubica is how he has got the Renault team focussed on him. It's hard to fill the space left by a star like Alonso, just look at what happened at Renault in 2007. Kubica has obviously impressed the team, and they feel they can win with him if they give him the car.

He was simply stunning in 2008. You have to remember that he was entirely unhappy with BMW dropping the ball after winning in Canada and helping Heidfeld to get the best out of the car and RK felt the team should have concentrated more on him and his WDC aspirations.

[Tazio]

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/cause
cause
1. a. The producer of an effect, result, or consequence.
b. The one, such as a person, event, or condition, that is responsible for an action or result.

2. A basis for an action or response; a reason: The doctor's report gave no cause for alarm.
3. A goal or principle served with dedication and zeal: "the cause of freedom versus tyranny" (Hannah Arendt).
4. The interests of a person or group engaged in a struggle: "The cause of America is in great measure the cause of all mankind" (Thomas Paine).
5. Law a. A ground for legal action.
b. A lawsuit.

6. A subject under debate or discussion.
tr.v. caused, caus·ing, caus·es 1. To be the cause of or reason for; result in.
2. To bring about or compel by authority or force: The moderator invoked a rule causing the debate to be ended.

:fasttalk: :grenade: :)

:rotflmao:

If you meant cause

A correct brief statement would be
Because cheating, lying, and stealing bla bla bla.......

Or more correctly:

That is because a cheat a liar and a thief and etc....

But I understand what you were trying to say, you just used incorrect English, or you misspelled course so badly when you put it through office word it suggested the misspelled word was cause and you clicked on change.

:s ailor: G-day

[Ari]

Alonso.
Schumacher.
Kubica.
Hamilton.
Webber.
Button.
Rubens.
Vettel.

There! Argue that if you like, but there's no point as I'm right. :)

[Ari]

That is if Vettel actually STAYS at RedBull. He may well be lured away by another of the big-3 teams. I think it's safe to say that all of them (McLaren, Ferrari, Mercedes) have an interest in signing him up away from RedBull. This is another reason I am convinced RedBull needs to start developing their next star quickly to fill a possible void left by Vettel's departure and Webber's retirement. They need to kick out at least one of their ToroRosso drivers, and put Ricciardo in there... with Vergne to follow ASAP. By now it's pretty clear that neither Buemi nor Algaeboy will be the next Vettel, so it's time to move on.

Top post.... agree 100%.

[CNR]

:rotflmao:

If you meant cause

A correct brief statement would be
Because cheating, lying, and stealing bla bla bla.......

Or more correctly:

That is because a cheat a liar and a thief and etc....

But I understand what you were trying to say, you just used incorrect English, or you misspelled course so badly when you put it through office word it suggested the misspelled word was cause and you clicked on change.

:s ailor: G-day

What you've posted is a personal comment and an insult at the same time

[Valve Bounce]

Bunsen is the Best!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[555-04Q2]

There is still no one on the current grid who can hold a candle to Alonso. The guy can be a pr!ck, but he is a master of his craft.

[Valve Bounce]

There is still no one on the current grid who can hold a candle to Alonso. The guy can be a pr!ck, but he is a master of his craft.

I thought Alonso was on the current grid - where did he go? :p :
I bet he would need Bunsen to light his candle just the same. :D

[Garry Walker]

At the current grid, Hamilton is the best driver. Then come a load of other drivers, but no one is as good as Hammy.


Perhaps Hamilton is faster, but Alonso proved himself contribute to tactic strategical on how to develop cars like Renault to be a winning car and fix Ferrari problem so that they can challenge for the title this year, is a plus point for him.

Alonso has proven no such thing
1) He himself said he doesnt take part in deciding strategy at renault after the Singapore GP, where he supposedly didnt know about the Piquet thing ( :rotflmao: :rotflmao :) , how could we doubt his words?
2) He fixed Ferrari problems? :rotflmao:

What is tactic strategical?


There is still no one on the current grid who can hold a candle to Alonso. The guy can be a pr!ck, but he is a master of his craft.

Two guys on the current grid have beaten him over a season in equal cars, so how can he be considered the best?

[Retro Formula 1]

<snigger> ^^^^^^^^^

:up:

:D

[motetarip]

Hamilton is in my opinion the best driver out there in terms of raw pace and racing ability.

I'd like to see Kobayashi in a decent car with a bit more experience.

[truefan72]

Until a driver is put to the pressure of fighting for the WDC it is quite pointless to speculate how good they are. Fisichella was thought to be a great driver, but in the end was just soild. I think that with Heidfeld the case is similar. Good in a bad car, average in a good one.
I think that RK is a very good driver, but about the best - too early to say. From historical point of view, from me there is no doubt that Michael Schumacher is the best driver, at least from the current stars, as his prime he made spectacular races. Unfortunately, age is an enemy even he can not hope to overcome and now I have to agree with people who believe that Alonso and Hamilton are the best. It is true that both sometimes make costly mistakes, but in the end they are formidable rivals, always fast, always a threat, with never say never attitude. Jenson Button is a very good and extremely intelligent driver, but he hasn't the pure pace of FA and LH. Same about Webber. Vettel I think is very quick, but too immature.
From the rest, in his prime Massa is spectacular, but like MS, he is struggling badly with his tyres. Barrichello still has fire in him, but I think that we can all agree that he is not the most consistent driver. And there is Nico, who, just like Kubica, can not be judged properly until and if the right car and the chance arrive. I personally think that he is more like Heidfeld than like Kubica or Webber, but we will see.

:up:
excellent post. I pretty much agree with every point

[truefan72]

I think when it's all said and done, Robert Kubica will fit neatly into the "consummate racing professional" category, together with drivers such as Felipe Massa, David Coulthard, Gerhard Berger: drivers that undoubtedly have talent, that are amongst the best in the business for an extended period of time, and that have frequent flashes of speed and brilliance, winning races and usually among the quickest out there, but that ultimately lack that final spark, that final ounce of speed and performance to be champion.

while his career is far from written in stone, I see this as the probable case of his time in F1. good point

[truefan72]

[quote="maximilian"]

hard to tell since both have not been driving for that long and the car is crap
I think both of them actually are decent drivers; more so Buemi

[maximilian]

hard to tell since both have not been driving for that long and the car is crap
I think both of them actually are decent drivers; more so Buemi
Decent perhaps, but they aren't the next Vettel. So RedBull would be well advised to move on, and leave the decent drivers to somebody like Virgin :p

[Tazio]

Bunsen is the Best!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:s ailor: Manfred Von Brauchitsch :p :

[truefan72]

the only way to know how good buemi is is to give him a shot at the RBR and perhaps you would see a guy getting poles and winning races. Most of the guys in F1 are pretty good and the car is many times a deciding factor.

We do occasionally have a few chances to know if a guy can cut it or not. Kovy, for example showed he did not have the chops, neither did Nelson Jr. Heidfeld IMO showed that he is a career serviceable driver. Fisi has shown to be unable to deal with the pressure. Trulli has shown some flashes but not that consistency. outside of these guys.
It is really hard to evaluate drivers and their skills. especially those with short careers to date and crappy cars. That is the fundamental problem in F1 today. You can't dismiss either of the STR guys becuase they don't have and never have had anything that would allow them to compete or shine.

In 2009 that Force India worked brilliantly for 2 races and sure enough Sutil, Fisi and Liuzzi looked like they were something special. To me there are only 2 drivers who I can count on to blow people away in any car they drive. Alonso and Hamilton. Schumi used to be one of those too, but sadly has lost a step now.(although I still think he is good enough to earn his seat and continue in 2011)

[ioan]

That is if Vettel actually STAYS at RedBull. He may well be lured away by another of the big-3 teams. I think it's safe to say that all of them (McLaren, Ferrari, Mercedes) have an interest in signing him up away from RedBull. This is another reason I am convinced RedBull needs to start developing their next star quickly to fill a possible void left by Vettel's departure and Webber's retirement. They need to kick out at least one of their ToroRosso drivers, and put Ricciardo in there... with Vergne to follow ASAP. By now it's pretty clear that neither Buemi nor Algaeboy will be the next Vettel, so it's time to move on.

Vettel signed a multiple season (3 or 5 years don't remember exactly) contract with RBR, he isn't going anywhere. And why would he leave? To be Santander's lil' toy at Ferrari? Would it be better at McLaren?

Maybe at Mercedes when MS hangs up the boots again, German team and Rosberg would be the perfect number 2.

[motetarip]

Until RBR start to decline in performance relative to the other teams I don't think Vettel will look anywhere else either, it's been nigh on the best car for 2 years now ignoring last year's Honda, sorry, Brawn. RBR have shown that with the current team they have the development potential to stay at the front for a while.

[F1boat]

:up:
excellent post. I pretty much agree with every point

Thank you !!!

[donKey jote]

To be Santander's lil' toy at Ferrari?
you seem almost as obsessed with Santander as Garry Wa?ker appears to be with Vettel or Alonso :laugh:

[F1boat]

you seem almost as obsessed with Santander as Garry Wa?ker appears to be with Vettel or Alonso :laugh:

Garry hates Jenson as well. ;) ioan too!

[maximilian]

Vettel signed a multiple season (3 or 5 years don't remember exactly) contract with RBR, he isn't going anywhere. And why would he leave? To be Santander's lil' toy at Ferrari? Would it be better at McLaren?

Maybe at Mercedes when MS hangs up the boots again, German team and Rosberg would be the perfect number 2.
I am not convinced that RBR can keep the current level infinitely - we had plenty of teams of formerly championship quality decline considerably (a la Benetton, Renault, Brawn) - the only consistent guarantee of a top seat is to drive either for McLaren or Ferrari. Vettel would leave for McLaren because he could expect consistently guaranteed excellence, and for Ferrari for the same reason every driver leaves for Ferrari. Other than the sporting factors, someone writing a huge check may well have something to do with it, too.

[CNR]

the best drivers based on points over there team mate is
Robert Kubica (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2010/815.html) 114 points
Vitaly Petrov (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2010/864.html) 19 points
95 points

Nico Rosberg (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2010/809.html) 122 points
Michael Schumacher (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2010/7.html) 54 points
66 points

Adrian Sutil (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2010/818.html) 47 points
Vitantonio Liuzzi (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2010/802.html) 13points
34 points


1 Robert Kubica (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2010/815.html)
2 Nico Rosberg (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2010/809.html)
3 Adrian Sutil (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2010/818.html)
4 Rubens Barrichello (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2010/8.html)
5 Kamui Kobayashi (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2010/837.html)

[donKey jote]

of cause you mean their there (becourse they're not the same, are they taz ? :s ailor: ;) )

[Arjuna]

At the current grid, Hamilton is the best driver. Then come a load of other drivers, but no one is as good as Hammy.

Alonso has proven no such thing
1) He himself said he doesnt take part in deciding strategy at renault after the Singapore GP, where he supposedly didnt know about the Piquet thing ( :rotflmao: :rotflmao :) , how could we doubt his words?
2) He fixed Ferrari problems? :rotflmao:

What is tactic strategical?

Two guys on the current grid have beaten him over a season in equal cars, so how can he be considered the best?
I think Alonso's strength than Hamilton, except it may occur at the first corner after the start, barely I could remember when did Alonso crash on someone or when did someone crash on him after overtaking, relatively he has cleaner move.

I referred to something like driver input to improve performance of the car and timely pit stop strategy during his time at Renault and won consecutive two seasons, pit stop strategy is decided before the race running and a driver must come up the idea at when he comes in to pitstop for tyre change and refueling. I'd rather agree to allow refueling as it helps weaker engine with clever strategy to win the race.

You are right that he didn't take part at all on Piquet scenario to help him to win in Singapore. I doubt that he would want to play such strategy as crashgate on his teammate. He might have won Singapore without such strategy, by virtue of his own strength. :)

I reckon he and Hamilton shared the same point in 2007. Who the two guys have beaten him in equal cars? :)

[jens]

the only way to know how good buemi is is to give him a shot at the RBR and perhaps you would see a guy getting poles and winning races.

Erm, the main way to get an understanding about Buemi's level would be to pair him with a proven experienced driver. But I don't think even this is needed any more as in terms of pace also Alguersuari has started to outshine him lately.

[pino]

Best driver ? Alonso
Fast driver ? Lewis

:p :

[555-04Q2]

Two guys on the current grid have beaten him over a season in equal cars, so how can he be considered the best?

Look at his record, it speaks for itself. Also look at what he has achieved this season, equal second in the WDC against the mighty Red Bulls.

And who are the two drivers with "equal cars" ?

[Ranger]

Look at his record, it speaks for itself. Also look at what he has achieved this season, equal second in the WDC against the mighty Red Bulls.

And who are the two drivers with "equal cars" ?

Methinks Hamilton in 2007 and Trulli in 2004 before he got booted.

[555-04Q2]

Methinks Hamilton in 2007 and Trulli in 2004 before he got booted.

Hamilton was equal with Alonso on points. He was set at Macca whereas Alonso was in his first season. And I rate Hamilton as second best to Alonso on the current grid.

Trulli never finished the season with Renault in 2004 so Alonso wasn't beaten by him over a season as stated by our good friend Garry.

[AndyL]

He was set at Macca whereas Alonso was in his first season.

Or to put it another way "He was in his rookie season whereas Alonso was the reigning world champion."

[555-04Q2]

Or to put it another way "He was in his rookie season whereas Alonso was the reigning world champion."

Hammy's been part of the Macca family for over a decade, since he was about 14 years old if I remember correctly. He knew the team, management, mechanics etc and the team loved him cause he was British. The Spaniard stood no chance at Macca, especially when he opened his mouth! I'm surprised he lasted a full season there!

[Garry Walker]

I referred to something like driver input to improve performance of the car and timely pit stop strategy during his time at Renault and won consecutive two seasons, pit stop strategy is decided before the race running and a driver must come up the idea at when he comes in to pitstop for tyre change and refueling.
I just brought you an example where alonso said he has nothing to do with choosing the strategy for the race. So what the hell are you on about? Drivers do not come up with ideas when to make pitstops.
Drivers play very little part in developing the cars, that is up to the engineers.



You are right that he didn't take part at all on Piquet scenario to help him to win in Singapore. I doubt that he would want to play such strategy as crashgate on his teammate. He might have won Singapore without such strategy, by virtue of his own strength. Yeah, sure, whatever. You make no sense at all.



I reckon he and Hamilton shared the same point in 2007. Who the two guys have beaten him in equal cars?Hamilton finished 2nd, alonso was 3rd.
The other guy who beat him over a season was trulli in 2004.




Garry hates Jenson as well. ioan too!I dont actually, eventhough sometimes I have been pretty hard on him, but that has usually been caused by a certain mr. saint devote and his fanboyism.
I dont hate button at all.


you seem almost as obsessed with Santander as Garry Wa?ker appears to be with Vettel or Alonso :laugh:

I think ioan and I have this in common that we have a high dislike for pricks.


Look at his record, it speaks for itself. Also look at what he has achieved this season, equal second in the WDC against the mighty Red Bulls.Alonso has been awful this season and made a huge number of mistakes. Australia where he crashed into button in first corner, Shanghai where he made a false-start, Monaco where he crashed in FP, Canada where he was overtaken twice by McLarens, Silverstone where he made a stupid move on kubica and got punished deservedly for that, should I continue about getting teamorders at Hockhenheim or crashing out at Spa?

He is only close to the title because Red Bull has effed up so many times as a team and McLaren is nowhere near the car as Ferrari or Red Bull is.



And who are the two drivers with "equal cars" ?Trulli in 2004, Hamilton in 2007.


Hamilton was equal with Alonso on points. He was set at Macca whereas Alonso was in his first season. And I rate Hamilton as second best to Alonso on the current grid. :rotflmao: Wonderful argument, but I guess more important than Hamilton having been helped by McLaren in his junior career (what does that have to do with F1 anyway?) was that he was still a rookie in F1, whereas Alonso had taken 2 titles and was a very experienced driver.
Really :rolleyes:

oh and Hamilton finished the season 2nd, whereas Alonso finished 3rd, yes?
2nd place is better than the 3rd place, yes?

Hamilton mentally destroyed Alonso and got in his head badly.



Trulli never finished the season with Renault in 2004 so Alonso wasn't beaten by him over a season as stated by our good friend Garry.
:rotflmao: Yeah, Trulli didnt take part in 3 last races, so this dismisses the whole argument :rotflmao:
Strawman.

[Garry Walker]

Hammy's been part of the Macca family for over a decade, since he was about 14 years old if I remember correctly. He knew the team, management, mechanics etc and the team loved him cause he was British. The Spaniard stood no chance at Macca, especially when he opened his mouth! I'm surprised he lasted a full season there!

Yes, I am sure he had worked with his McLaren race engineer on many occasions before and that helped him bigtime. Oh wait, he didnt.
Alonso stood no chance because he was unable to accept that he was given equal treatment with Hamilton and Hamilton was too fast for him to handle.

Really, you are a grown man and you are making such pathetic arguments. Do you think you are debating at kindergarden level? :rolleyes:

[ArrowsFA1]

Hammy's been part of the Macca family for over a decade...and the team loved him cause he was British. The Spaniard stood no chance at Macca, especially when he opened his mouth!
If Hamilton had been British and rubbish they wouldn't have loved him (or employed him).

[donKey jote]

I think ioan and I have this in common that we have a high dislike for pricks.

you're not the only two, although I would add cretins to my list as well :laugh: :laugh:

[jens]

Some say that Alonso's performance in 2007 was hindered, but personally I haven't seen any evidence of it. Whenever Alonso was faster, he was allowed to beat Hamilton (even at the end of the season at Spa & Monza, where McLaren could have easily favoured the WDC leader) and I don't even remember him having an inferior pitstop strategy, which cost his position to Hamilton. Quite to opposite actually, recalling Melbourne and Monaco. Team even put Alonso into a position, which enabled him to ruin Hamilton's final qualifying attempt in Hungary. So on track McLaren treated both drivers equally and that Alonso failed to beat Hamilton, was down to his own performance.

[CNR]

Some say that Alonso's performance in 2007 was hindered, but personally I haven't seen any evidence of it.

http://www.f1technical.net/news/7395
FIA to guard over Alonso's car and equality at McLaren

Carlos Garcia, the president of the Spanish motorsport federation, declared in the Spanish press: "The FIA has ensured me that they will prevent that anything bad will happen to Fernando. Especially during qualifying, where many strange things have taken place."

The FIA confirmed that they will keep a close watch on McLaren to ensure complete equality. The governing body would also be looking for a special guard to watch over the MP4-22 of Alonso.


did the crybaby just run to the fia or is there truth in it ?

[fandango]

Do all threads have to lead back to McLaren 2007? I thought this one was supposed to be about Kubica...

[fandango]

But while we're there :) ......

I reckon that the people who say that Alonso was shocked at how quick the rookie Hamilton was are absolutely right. It scared the willies out of him.

I also think McLaren did not treat their drivers equally. I don't think they ever have, DC and Hakkinen, even back to Watson and Lauda. There is too much evidence to the contrary.

I think Alonso's problem was not with Hamilton, but with Ron Dennis, and that there's a lot more in all that that we don't know about.

A huge part of English-speaking people's negative opinion of Alonso is a result of a basic misunderstanding between Latin and Anglo-Saxon culture.

Alonso and Hamilton are the two best drivers in F1 at the moment, and to favour either one is idiotic, because they're so close that it depends on the day who is the best.

It's not worth bothering to discuss anything with Garry Walker.

[jens]

I also think McLaren did not treat their drivers equally.

I can recall in Ferrari days it could be argued Schumacher got superior strategies to Barrichello;
In Brawn last year it could be argued that Button was favored in Spain;
At Renault it could be argued that the #2 driver had way worse reliability (especially Fisichella in 2005);
In McLaren in late 90's it could be argued, when DC was asked to move over for Häkkinen a couple of times to give away the victory.

But McLaren 2007? Any evidence? At all? Besides that very hazy fuel pressure argument in China. I am struggling to see, what are people's arguments based on besides Alonso feeling unhappy.

[fandango]

I think its fairly well documented that Mclaren treated their drivers equally as far as machinery is concerned, but what Mclaren failed in managing was two competitive ego's.

I agree with that. I wouldn't argue differently about the machinery because I just don't know. Alonso thought he was going to dominate the team, as did everybody. Even Lewis couldn't believe how well things went in the first few races I imagine, and remember that he was named late as the second driver: many were expecting De La Rosa.

But McLaren have always made a big thing of their equal treatment, and I think it's nonsense. It's a subtle thing, but it was the same with Coulthard and Hakkinen, for example.


.......which boiled over at the Hungarian GP.

That's where the major misunderstanding happened in my opinion. The story we have is that Alonso exploded at Dennis over the qualifying order row, and threatened all sorts of things, which gave rise to Dennis coming clean to the FIA president. If he had not made that call I reckon things would have turned out very differently, and I think he would have been able to continue to work with Alonso. In Latin countries people explode all the time, and whatever is said in these moments is allowed to pass by those who hear it.

Dennis was acting on his own principles, and I don't blame him, but I really think that he shouldn't have taken Alonso's threats seriously. People in Anglo-Saxon countries find it hard to understand that, it seems, and are often quick to condemn a person over one off-the-cuff comment.

[fandango]

I can recall in Ferrari days it could be argued Schumacher got superior strategies to Barrichello;
In Brawn last year it could be argued that Button was favored in Spain;
At Renault it could be argued that the #2 driver had way worse reliability (especially Fisichella in 2005);
In McLaren in late 90's it could be argued, when DC was asked to move over for Häkkinen a couple of times to give away the victory.

But McLaren 2007? Any evidence? At all? Besides that very hazy fuel pressure argument in China. I am struggling to see, what are people's arguments based on besides Alonso feeling unhappy.

I'm not defending Alonso, but I'm just saying that I don't believe that a team CAN be as even-handed as they claim to be. There are so many decisions to be made over a season, and I think teams do favour one driver over another without realising it. You can say it's the driver's fault for not getting on with the job, or not clicking with the team, and that's valid. But favouring always happens, I believe.

In fact, I reckon that Ron Dennis messed up by trying to be TOO friendly and cuddly. As soon as Alonso moaned about not feeling comfortable after the first couple of races, Dennis should have hauled him in and given him a good hairdrier bol***king, told him where to go. But he couldn't do that to the double world champion and risk being left with an unproven Hamilton because of all the money concerns.

For me, that factor has always been a McLaren weakness. Alonso's early season comments in 2007 would never have been tolerated at, say, Williams when they were in their prime.

[CNR]

http://www.thef1times.com/news/display/02123
Durango still eyeing current team takeover

Villeneuve wants to do this and he would like to race for a couple more years. He said, 'If Schumacher is racing, I can do it as well, because I am three years younger than him.'
using this logic
Nabil Jeffri is the best driver in f1
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2010/9/11200.html

[truefan72]

Dennis was acting on his own principles, and I don't blame him, but I really think that he shouldn't have taken Alonso's threats seriously. People in Anglo-Saxon countries find it hard to understand that, it seems, and are often quick to condemn a person over one off-the-cuff comment.

which was sadly proved to be wrong since Alonso did go ahead and instigate a reopening of the investigation after the FIA concluded the initial proceedings, all because Mclaren would not accept his blackmail offers he made.

Those actions alone should have seen him fired and in all honesty criminal charges of blackmail being levied at him. Up to Hungary I looked at the whole Alonso hamilton situation as two very competitive guys and a great battle for the WDC shaping up. While I favored Hamilton, I did not dislike Alonso...up until that point. After that and the whole spygate situation, I find it hard to like this guy although I respect his racecraft. I am glad he is gone from Mclaren. This was a classic case study of paranoia mixed with jealousy, envy, and a profound inability to deal with an equally competitive teammate.

...no. I'm still not over it. TBH :|

[Mia 01]

For me the best driver this year is Seb. He may not be the best overtaker but he is very fast.

Second Mark, he is fast and aggressive when needed!

Third is tied between Fred and Lewis bothvery fast but a bit erratic when the heat is on.

Fourth is tied between Robert and Nico, both very consistent, not many mistakes.

[Malbec]

Dennis was acting on his own principles, and I don't blame him, but I really think that he shouldn't have taken Alonso's threats seriously. People in Anglo-Saxon countries find it hard to understand that, it seems, and are often quick to condemn a person over one off-the-cuff comment.

And yet its Ron Dennis who prides himself on being able to manage 'latin temperaments', a boast he made when he signed JPM, speaking of having managed Senna's temperament so well in his conflict with his teammate Prost... I always thought that boast was borderline racist and so openly far from the truth that it was laughable.

[Arjuna]

Yeah, Trulli didnt take part in 3 last races, so this dismisses the whole argument Strawman.
In case Trulli didn't race for Renault for the whole season, their productivity scoring points per race maybe helpful. :)

[Arjuna]

Anyway, my respect for him as a talented driver is still there, even if I don't agree with his politics. :)

Although the results is worthwhile in balance with the effort, if we talk politic and controversy, no one have been doing a lot like Michael. :)

If we categorize best driver as an assertive driver, interact with others while standing up for his own interest, among current title contenders I vote for Jenson Button and then Alonso. Drivers like Vettel, Hamilton, Webber are a bit aggressive, but that's the rule driving F1 needs aggressiveness. The best driver perhaps compromise between two of them, besides a tactical mastermind and a proven WDC.

[Tazio]

:s ailor: The Boss, and Fred > Kubinski

:s ailor: Fred and The Boss > Kubinski ;)

[fandango]

which was sadly proved to be wrong since Alonso did go ahead and instigate a reopening of the investigation after the FIA concluded the initial proceedings, all because Mclaren would not accept his blackmail offers he made.

Those actions alone should have seen him fired and in all honesty criminal charges of blackmail being levied at him. Up to Hungary I looked at the whole Alonso hamilton situation as two very competitive guys and a great battle for the WDC shaping up. While I favored Hamilton, I did not dislike Alonso...up until that point. After that and the whole spygate situation, I find it hard to like this guy although I respect his racecraft. I am glad he is gone from Mclaren. This was a classic case study of paranoia mixed with jealousy, envy, and a profound inability to deal with an equally competitive teammate.

...no. I'm still not over it. TBH :|

My understanding was that it was Ron Dennis' call to Max that reopened the investigation, because Ron didn't want Alonso to go to Max with the news. Perhaps I'm all wrong, but that was what I was talking about, because I don't think Alonso would have done it. Ron should have waited.

I don't know where you get the criminal blackmail from, but I do agree that Alonso should probably have been at least threatened with being fired by Dennis early in the season. I doubt he would get away with the same behaviour at Ferrari (they fired Prost, remember), and I reckon he knows it. That's why I ultimately find fault (or perhaps responsibility) with Ron Dennis for the disaster of McLaren in 2007.

I also think it was unfair to Hamilton, to be left as such a young driver to be carrying the hopes of the McLaren management and half the team at such an early stage in his career. He very nearly pulled it off.

Luckily, though, the result is Alonso and Hamilton impressing us all with their racing at different teams, which is really what I care about.

[Garry Walker]

Some say that Alonso's performance in 2007 was hindered, but personally I haven't seen any evidence of it. Whenever Alonso was faster, he was allowed to beat Hamilton (even at the end of the season at Spa & Monza, where McLaren could have easily favoured the WDC leader) and I don't even remember him having an inferior pitstop strategy, which cost his position to Hamilton. Quite to opposite actually, recalling Melbourne and Monaco. Team even put Alonso into a position, which enabled him to ruin Hamilton's final qualifying attempt in Hungary. So on track McLaren treated both drivers equally and that Alonso failed to beat Hamilton, was down to his own performance.
Very good post.





I also think McLaren did not treat their drivers equally. I don't think they ever have, DC and Hakkinen, even back to Watson and Lauda. There is too much evidence to the contrary.QUOTE]What evidence is there that Alonso was not given equal treatment?


I think Alonso's problem was not with Hamilton, but with Ron Dennis, and that there's a lot more in all that that we don't know about.
Alonsos problem was with the fact that Dennis refused to give him nr.1 status.

[Big Ben]

garry being classsy as usual.... I admire you for being able to get away with it all the time... I still hope for a ban though, It´s long overdue

[Big Ben]

I think ioan and I have this in common that we have a high dislike for pricks.



It certainly explains the rocky relationship

[Big Ben]

Team even put Alonso into a position, which enabled him to ruin Hamilton's final qualifying attempt in Hungary. .

I´m sorry buddy but I disagree completely. Back then we used to have those silly burning fule laps so whoever pitted last had the best strategy. At McLaren each driver got the optimal strategy at every other race. In Hungary it was Alonso´s turn but Hamilton refused to obey and didn´t allow the Spaniard to pass and altered the pitstop sequance. Alonso had to come in first and do his flying laps with a heavier car. So what happened? Alonso took the gun and did some justice on his own. The team refused to take serious measures against Hamilton's beavior (after causing at Monaco another investigation against his team with his stupid unfunded complaints). Alonso got penalized and Hammy boy got away with it once more while McLaren left hungary with 0 points in the wcc IIRC. This sparkled the conflict between Alonso and the team.... and what happened after that is beyond my understanding. I will never get why a team that was always criticized for its discipline allowed that spoiled brat to do whatever he wanted and still does actually.... so yeah... they did put him a position to ruin Hamilton´s lap but it was no freakin´ favor as you present it.

I think Alonso did the right thing, made his point very clear and didn´t allowed Hammy to push him over. So he went on and had a very heated conversation with RD which left things pretty bad between them and RD tried to do some false whistle blowing making sure the team would be spared and actions would be taken against individuals... but the trick didn´t work out and he got burnt.

It´s interesting how so many keep bringing up Alonso rocky relationship with the British team but seem to ignore the fact that things went really bad because of Hamilton´s actions... he's involvement is always forgotten. All we hear is about his young innocent fast rookie who beat his 2 times wdc team mates by as much as 0 points.

[Mia 01]

Sebastian is best

Then Mark

[fandango]

I´m sorry buddy but I disagree completely. Back then we used to have those silly burning fule laps so whoever pitted last had the best strategy. At McLaren each driver got the optimal strategy at every other race. In Hungary it was Alonso´s turn but Hamilton refused to obey and didn´t allow the Spaniard to pass and altered the pitstop sequance. Alonso had to come in first and do his flying laps with a heavier car. So what happened? Alonso took the gun and did some justice on his own. The team refused to take serious measures against Hamilton's beavior (after causing at Monaco another investigation against his team with his stupid unfunded complaints). Alonso got penalized and Hammy boy got away with it once more while McLaren left hungary with 0 points in the wcc IIRC. This sparkled the conflict between Alonso and the team.... and what happened after that is beyond my understanding. I will never get why a team that was always criticized for its discipline allowed that spoiled brat to do whatever he wanted and still does actually.... so yeah... they did put him a position to ruin Hamilton´s lap but it was no freakin´ favor as you present it.

I think Alonso did the right thing, made his point very clear and didn´t allowed Hammy to push him over. So he went on and had a very heated conversation with RD which left things pretty bad between them and RD tried to do some false whistle blowing making sure the team would be spared and actions would be taken against individuals... but the trick didn´t work out and he got burnt.

It´s interesting how so many keep bringing up Alonso rocky relationship with the British team but seem to ignore the fact that things went really bad because of Hamilton´s actions... he's involvement is always forgotten. All we hear is about his young innocent fast rookie who beat his 2 times wdc team mates by as much as 0 points.

That's how I understood the events of Hungary 07, too. I'm not sure if I agree that Alonso did the right thing (when we held up Hamilton), but the team didn't act to protect its interests as it should have. They should have put Hamilton in his place then, just as they should have earlier done the same to Alonso for his public early-season moaning.

Judging by the good vibes between Hamilton and Button, I reckon they must have learned something.

[Garry Walker]

I´m sorry buddy but I disagree completely. Back then we used to have those silly burning fule laps so whoever pitted last had the best strategy. At McLaren each driver got the optimal strategy at every other race. In Hungary it was Alonso´s turn but Hamilton refused to obey and didn´t allow the Spaniard to pass and altered the pitstop sequance. Alonso had to come in first and do his flying laps with a heavier car.
The goal at Hungary was to get an extra lap of fuel burned and Hamilton refused to allow Alonso to pass him, trying to get the extra lap himself too. I reckon had alonso not thrown a hissy, they both would have gotten it. Alonso didnt do his laps with the heavier car anyway, because Hamilton had 2 more laps fuel onboard anyway.


So what happened? Alonso took the gun and did some justice on his own. If I was Ron, I would have fired Alonso straight after that "justice of his own"


while McLaren left hungary with 0 points in the wcc IIRC. Only because of the actions of alonso.



I will never get why a team that was always criticized for its discipline allowed that spoiled brat to do whatever he wanted
Yeah, I dont agree with how kind they were to alonso either.

[fandango]

The goal at Hungary was to get an extra lap of fuel burned and Hamilton refused to allow Alonso to pass him, trying to get the extra lap himself too. I reckon had alonso not thrown a hissy, they both would have gotten it. .....

That's possibly true, but then the correct thing for Hamilton would have been to talk to the team and his teammate to explain what he wanted to do, rather than just do what he wants and expect everyone to fall into line.

I wouldn't call expecting a deal to be respected throwing a sissy.

The excuse given at the time by the British F1 press was along the lines of "ah well, the lad is just such a racer he can't help himself".

Personally, I prefer Alonso's personality over Hamilton,'s but I'm not above criticising him. Just as there are few Spanish F1 fans who will criticise Alonso, there are few British F1 fans who will criticise Hamilton. In the end I'm glad that they are both in F1 and giving us great races.

[ioan]

That's possibly true, but then the correct thing for Hamilton would have been to talk to the team and his teammate to explain what he wanted to do, rather than just do what he wants and expect everyone to fall into line.

Why should he do the correct thing that suits others instead of the correct thing that suits himself?! Why?

[jens]

Why should he do the correct thing that suits others instead of the correct thing that suits himself?! Why?

Then the same could be asked about Alonso. Holding up Hamilton in the pits suited perfectly himself and why should have it suited his rival?

[fandango]

Why should he do the correct thing that suits others instead of the correct thing that suits himself?! Why?

Because working with all of your team is what wins races and championships. Is that not obvious?

Or because if you don't stick to the agreements you make, then people will never trust anything you say again.

Or because it's fair.

[ShiftingGears]

I think Hamilton is the most rapid driver on the grid. As for best driver? I do not know.

[ioan]

Then the same could be asked about Alonso. Holding up Hamilton in the pits suited perfectly himself and why should have it suited his rival?

Yielding on the track and holding up a driver for so long in the pits look the same to you?! Strange! :\

[ioan]

Because working with all of your team is what wins races and championships. Is that not obvious?Sure

Sure, sure and Alonso was working with all of his team while blackmailing them?! Obvious, or maybe not?!

[N4D13]

Sure, sure and Alonso was working with all of his team while blackmailing them?! Obvious, or maybe not?!
It's sad to see how a thread about Kubica ends up in yet another 2007 argument.

Here's my contribution to the current discussion, though: AFP: Motorsport chief Mosley accuses McLaren of lying in spying row (http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5i7qSJMjYoTMiWMjdSGnb1FePooMg).

Between Mosley and Dennis, I'd personally choose Mosley. I guess that being the President of FIA gives him more credibility than being the principal of a Formula 1 team.