Is Massa the donkey of the race?

[donKey jote]

or is it the wheel nut guys at renault and merc :s

[ioan]

All of them, but mostly Massa.

[Dave B]

A lot of donkeys, but if it turns out there was nothing wrong with his Virgin then Lucas di Grassi must be in prime contention for losing it on the way to the grid.

Petrov seemed to have his brain disengaged at the start too, and whoever designed McLaren's gearbox needs a slap.

[ioan]

A lot of donkeys, but if it turns out there was nothing wrong with his Virgin then Lucas di Grassi must be in prime contention for losing it on the way to the grid.

Petrov seemed to have his brain disengaged at the start too, and whoever designed McLaren's gearbox needs a slap.

The designer of the gearbox did nothing wrong, however the guy who put it together and the one who checked it both made mistakes.

[Ent]

di Grassi for sure. At least Massa made it to the starting grid.

[donKey jote]

di Grassi was the monkey ( ;) ) donkey, but as a) he didn't start and b) he wasn't expected to do too well anyway, I left him out :p

[Hawkmoon]

Massa for being as about at useful as tits on a bull when it comes to helping his team win the championship.

[ioan]

Massa for being as about at useful as tits on a bull when it comes to helping his team win the championship.

To be honest Alonso wouldn't do a better job at that either, just check out 2007. ;)

Not Massa wasn't a donkey today.

[Hawkmoon]

To be honest Alonso wouldn't do a better job at that either, just check out 2007. ;)

Not Massa wasn't a donkey today.

Perhaps, but I don't think Alonso would have qualified the 2nd or 3rd best car on the grid in 12th and then switched his brain off at the start.

It was a poor effort from a driver who can and has done much, much better.

[ioan]

Perhaps, but I don't think Alonso would have qualified the 2nd or 3rd best car on the grid in 12th and then switch his brain off at the start.

It was a poor effort from a driver who can and has done much, much better.

Yes he is capable of much better, however I can't blame him after what the team did to him this season. IMO he should have shown the the middle finger in Germany and then flippin' bury them in front of the of the WMSC for using team orders.

[F1boat]

Jaime for me. Almost ended Kamui's race for no reason.

[Hawkmoon]

Yes he is capable of much better, however I can't blame him after what the team did to him this season. IMO he should have shown the the middle finger in Germany and then flippin' bury them in front of the of the WMSC for using team orders.

The catch here is that the further he falls behind Alonso the more likely he is to be asked to play second fiddle next season. If Massa performs poorly for the remiander of the season Ferrari are very likely to install Alonso as a clear #1 from the start of next season. How will Massa feel then?

What he needs to do is prove to Ferrari that they have two equal drivers and the only way to do that is to be at or close to Alonso's pace. Alonso made him look silly this weekend.

[Ranger]

Renault and Mercedes for the mysteriously parting wheels.

Petrov and Massa for fairly clumsy accidents... neither of which helps the floating rumours around for each of them.

di Grassi for not making the start.

Alguersuari for wrecking his own race.

[steveaki13]

Renault and Mercedes for the mysteriously parting wheels.

Petrov and Massa for fairly clumsy accidents... neither of which helps the floating rumours around for each of them.

di Grassi for not making the start.

Alguersuari for wrecking his own race.


Thats about it for me. :p

[Dr.Phibes]

Why is everyone blaming Mercedes? The suspension just broke, no loose wheel nut.

[Sonic]

^^^^^^

I haven't heard for sure but that didn't look like suspension failure to me. If the suspension fails the wheel tether should take some strain, but I didn't see any part of the tether with the wheel. Could be wrong tho.

As for the Donkey. I shan't give it to Petrov as, to be fair, he couldn't see the slow starting Williams, given that it was behind him already.

However Massa needs lessons in basic physics; wet grass = slippy. Tarmac = grippy. Fool.

[turismo6]

FIA race stewards for giving Petrov a five-place grid penalty and not to Massa.

[markabilly]

A lot of donkeys, but if it turns out there was nothing wrong with his Virgin then Lucas di Grassi must be in prime contention for losing it on the way to the grid.

.
to be donkey of the race, one must make it to the race

as to massa, i remain of the opinion that comparing team mates does not have the same validity as it did years ago, as microscopic differences in cars and their set ups that favor one driver over the other, can make big differences in results between the two.

Even things such as power curves from the engine......


then there was this gearbox that needed replacing or fixing, and costing someone some grid places, and after being "fixed", it forgot where third gear was located

[Dave B]

to be donkey of the race, one must make it to the race
By the FIA's rules he's classified as participating in the race*, so that's good enough for me :)

(* remember the Indy fiasco, the reason the Michelin runners took the parade lap was so they couldn't be penalised for not participating)

[markabilly]

well, good as that stunt out-qualifies the rest

[Daika]

Rosberg for losing 5 places at the start. What was that?

[keysersoze]

Wow, I only saw 2-3 replays of the start, but this is what I saw:

Nico gets a terrible start, and tries to keep the two drivers directly behind him (Massa and Petrov) by moving toward the MIDDLE of the track. Massa clear and continues to the right, and after Petrov gets almost completely by tries to move left to set up for T1, clips Nico in the right front. It was a carbon copy of the Vettel / Webber crash in Turkey.

Massa keeps his foot in it and is weaving to get by Rosberg, who also started poorly, but by this time they are on the approach to the first part of the double-apex. Massa refuses to check up and goes for a very small (and getting smaller) gap to the right, hits the wet grass, and skids across the entire grid, only managing to take out one car in the process.

Knowing he had a dangerously slow start Hulkenberg should have been less defensive and more proactive in avoiding the cars streaming past him.
For his part, Vitaly was much quicker than NH at that point and should have been more patient, as there was still a great deal of the straight ahead. Still, I don't see that what he did was worse than what Massa did.

Alguesuari looked like he deliberately drove into Kamui.

[52Paddy]

There is definitely a couple of protaganists for the donkey label this time around. I think it has to go to the nutjob at Renault who screwed up the wheel on Kubica's car. I was most excited to see how Robert would perform when he was lying 2nd. Alas, no :(

[rohanweb]

Yes Massa is , looks like He is been blownaway at ferrari by Alonso...
Massa to go out of ferarri and how about having Lewis Hamilton in that seat.. Lewis will win the next 10years of WDC with them !

[Somebody]

I'm half-wondering if Massa's sandbagged the past couple of races, after the team orders verdict came in...

[gloomyDAY]

Yes Massa is , looks like He is been blownaway at ferrari by Alonso...
Massa to go out of ferarri and how about having Lewis Hamilton in that seat.. Lewis will win the next 10years of WDC with them !I 100% agree with you! Lewis and Alonso would make great teammates.

Oh, wait. :D

[Tazio]

Massa

McLaren muppets

Renault muppets

[ioan]

Rosberg for losing 5 places at the start. What was that?

That's OK by his standards.

[Robinho]

Petrov pretty stupid to move over before passing the car, he was on for a really good start from there, Massa's move was equally boneheaded, and possibly more dangerous as he managed to lose it and go through the pack out of control. went for too much and lost it all.

Jaime was stupid too, there was no sense in fighting Koby in that mannar, especially after Koby had given him room and still managed to come out ahead (although can someone please explain how Algie hitting a car that passed him on the outside and was 3 quarters ahead is his fault, but when Hamilton passed Webber on the outside and was 3 quarters ahead it was Lewis' fault)

[52Paddy]

Petrov pretty stupid to move over before passing the car, he was on for a really good start from there

In all fairness to Petrov, from what he said in an interview on BBC, he had to move left because a car on his right was squeezing him. If he held line, he probably would have been hit on the right-hand side.

[ioan]

...(although can someone please explain how Algie hitting a car that passed him on the outside and was 3 quarters ahead is his fault, but when Hamilton passed Webber on the outside and was 3 quarters ahead it was Lewis' fault)

This is down to the Webber fans' understanding of racing. ;)

[Robinho]

In all fairness to Petrov, from what he said in an interview on BBC, he had to move left because a car on his right was squeezing him. If he held line, he probably would have been hit on the right-hand side.

i was willing to give him the benifit of the doubt, but didn't see any evidence of that on the overhead shot, and apparently neither did the FIA seeing as they've given him a 5 place grid drop for Korea.

[Big Ben]

Massa is one for the obvious reasons even thuogh some argue he sould take his toys, go in the bathroom and whine a little and then go to mommy and complain because the team didn´t let him get is lucky useless win this year.

Renault´s wheel. I can´t blame the team. They have one of these independent wheels every year.

Petrov was just excited Kimi got upset.

The virgin accident was a set up. The team is saving money for next year and these f1 cars are pretty thirsty ans Branson is only pretending to be finanincing a f1 team.

But the real donkey has to be Vettel. His yelling woke me up and I coudn´t go to sleep again. The kid´s pretty annoying when he gets excited.

[N. Jones]

I'm half-wondering if Massa's sandbagged the past couple of races, after the team orders verdict came in...

This thought has crossed my mind a few times.

I think the donkey was Petrov. I always the only person ever to cut into another driver at the start was me when playing GP4! :D

[keysersoze]

I have not seen the overhead shot of the start, but in the straight ahead shot, Heidfeld jinked hard left and Petrov clearly reacted. What I cannot tell from that angle was how far Nick was in front of Vitaly at that point.

[christophulus]

I can't find a replay, but I thought I saw di Grassi's left rear suspension fail as he slid across the run off. Whether that was the cause of the accident or not I don't know. They're certainly taking their time to explain it, same for Kubica and Rosberg.

Overall though, no stand-out donkeys for me. Petrov, Massa and Alguersuari were poor though.

[Duchess]

FIA race stewards for giving Petrov a five-place grid penalty and not to Massa.

Effing THIS. :mad:

[wedge]

Massa - for doing a good job of racing for himself

[mstillhere]

LH is the very donkey of the race for keeping in digging his hole deeper and deeper

[Valve Bounce]

Yes he is capable of much better, however I can't blame him after what the team did to him this season. IMO he should have shown the the middle finger in Germany and then flippin' bury them in front of the of the WMSC for using team orders.

You're right. His heart doesn't seem to be in the race anymore. Time to leave and join another team where his services would be better appreciated.

[airshifter]

LH is the very donkey of the race for keeping in digging his hole deeper and deeper

Well everyone, at least we should be able to agree on the donkey troll poster of the race. :laugh:

Considering the complete rebuild of the car after his off, the lack of practice laps, and the lost 3rd gear, Lewis did an outstanding job getting out of the hole dug by his off. Jenson couldn't overcome the 5 grid place penalty Lewis had to beat him, and had to wait until Hamiltons tranny went south.

[Valve Bounce]

Well everyone, at least we should be able to agree on the donkey troll poster of the race. :laugh:

Considering the complete rebuild of the car after his off, the lack of practice laps, and the lost 3rd gear, Lewis did an outstanding job getting out of the hole dug by his off. Jenson couldn't overcome the 5 grid place penalty Lewis had to beat him, and had to wait until Hamiltons tranny went south.

I think you'll find that Bunsen also had to contend with the wrong tyre strategy. Can't blame the guy for that now, can we?

[Shifter]

Massa - Pure brain-fade move from a driver who should be experienced enough not to make a move like that. I wonder if he completely missed the braking point and shot to the inside purely to avoid hitting the car in front of him.

[mstillhere]

You're right. His heart doesn't seem to be in the race anymore. Time to leave and join another team where his services would be better appreciated.


I see, speaking of team orders.....AGAIN........ I wonder how many nights you guys have spent tormenting yourselves over the matter. :)

How about this for a thought. I know it might be far fetched but....

For instance, I actually find it "strange" the fact the JB was given those "unusual" tires for this race. So much so that he complained himself on an interview with BBC.

If you ask me that's TEAM ORDERS the McLaren way. In fact, how coincidental. LH is 8th and Button, ahead of LH, gets the wrong tires on his car. Equal status equal=equipment=treatment. Right? Not reeally.

The truth is that LH, since has more points than JB, cannot cross the finish line behind him if McLaren want to have a chance to win this championship. Solution? Have Button race with the wrong tires and keep him out there as long as possible. We'll tell everybody we made a mistake. An honest mistake. :)

Why was not LH using the same tires? Simple. Becasue they were the wrong strategy and McLaren, of course, knew about it. As Ian says: it's only simple arithmetics. Right?

As far as Massa is concerned, he owes Ferrari huge. But in terms of what he has done for Ferrari there is not much to brag about. The are plenty of ifs, buts, "I was so close" etc. but nothing more than that. And with ifs and buts you don't win championships. We need concrete results like those acheived by Kimi and Alonso in their first year at Ferrari.

MAssa has no interest whatsoever to leave Ferrari. If he were to do that, in one or maybe two years he would be out F1 for good.

Two, Ferrari would not be crashed at all about his departure. For all we know actually he might be already on his way out. And to be honest I have no clue why Ferrari had Kimi go and kept Massa. We all saw how Kimi blossomed as soon as Massa was out due to his accident.

Talking about the difference of these two pilots, Alonso is doing in a couple of months what Massa has been dreaming to do during all his years at Ferrari. Obviously the same applies for Kimi.

Massa is a very mediocre driver incredibly lucky to be in Ferrari. There are plenty of talents out there dying right now to take his place and show what real talent can do given the chance to drive for Ferrari.

[Ranger]

I see, speaking of team orders.....AGAIN........ I wonder how many nights you guys have spent tormenting yourselves over the matter. :)

How about this for a thought. I know it might be far fetched but....

For instance, I actually find it "strange" the fact the JB was given those "unusual" tires for this race. So much so that he complained himself on an interview with BBC.

If you ask me that's TEAM ORDERS the McLaren way. In fact, how coincidental. LH is 8th and Button, ahead of LH, gets the wrong tires on his car. Equal status equal=equipment=treatment. Right? Not reeally.

The truth is that LH, since has more points than JB, cannot cross the finish line behind him if McLaren want to have a chance to win this championship. Solution? Have Button race with the wrong tires and keep him out there as long as possible. We'll tell everybody we made a mistake. An honest mistake. :)

Why was not LH using the same tires? Simple. Becasue they were the wrong strategy and McLaren, of course, knew about it. As Ian says: it's only simple arithmetics. Right?

What trash. :down:

Straight from JB on Saturday:


McLaren driver Button was sixth fastest and said that the tyre choice made sense to him as he had felt less comfortable on the soft rubber in practice.

"I felt better on the prime," he told television reporters. "Obviously when you get more and more soft tyre rubber down, maybe it doesn't work as well, but I was pretty happy.

"It's possibly a gamble. I don't think it's a big one. The soft tyre for us on Friday was a bit difficult to handle, so we'll see what it's like on the prime.

"Everyone else is on the soft tyre and overtaking is always difficult around here, but we'll give it a shot."


As far as Massa is concerned, he owes Ferrari huge. But in terms of what he has done for Ferrari there is not much to brag about. The are plenty of ifs, buts, "I was so close" etc. but nothing more than that. And with ifs and buts you don't win championships. We need concrete results like those acheived by Kimi and Alonso in their first year at Ferrari.

You conveniently ignore that Massa was much better than Kimi, paid three times as much as he was, in 2008 and 2009. Felipe lost far more points through failure of the team/car that season than he did through mistakes of his own.


MAssa has no interest whatsoever to leave Ferrari. If he were to do that, in one or maybe two years he would be out F1 for good.

Two, Ferrari would not be crashed at all about his departure. For all we know actually he might be already on his way out. And to be honest I have no clue why Ferrari had Kimi go and kept Massa. We all saw how Kimi blossomed as soon as Massa was out due to his accident.

Blossomed??

Anyone would 'blossom' next to Luca Badoer.

Up until Hungary, Massa was beating Kimi 22-10. He was the better driver that year.


Talking about the difference of these two pilots, Alonso is doing in a couple of months what Massa has been dreaming to do during all his years at Ferrari. Obviously the same applies for Kimi.

Massa is a very mediocre driver incredibly lucky to be in Ferrari. There are plenty of talents out there dying right now to take his place and show what real talent can do given the chance to drive for Ferrari.

So what if Alonso doesn't win the title in his first year? :\

[Valve Bounce]

I see, speaking of team orders.....AGAIN........ I wonder how many nights you guys have spent tormenting yourselves over the matter. :)

How about this for a thought. I know it might be far fetched but....

For instance, I actually find it "strange" the fact the JB was given those "unusual" tires for this race. So much so that he complained himself on an interview with BBC.

If you ask me that's TEAM ORDERS the McLaren way. In fact, how coincidental. LH is 8th and Button, ahead of LH, gets the wrong tires on his car. Equal status equal=equipment=treatment. Right? Not reeally.

The truth is that LH, since has more points than JB, cannot cross the finish line behind him if McLaren want to have a chance to win this championship. Solution? Have Button race with the wrong tires and keep him out there as long as possible. We'll tell everybody we made a mistake. An honest mistake. :)

Why was not LH using the same tires? Simple. Becasue they were the wrong strategy and McLaren, of course, knew about it. As Ian says: it's only simple arithmetics. Right?

As far as Massa is concerned, he owes Ferrari huge. But in terms of what he has done for Ferrari there is not much to brag about. The are plenty of ifs, buts, "I was so close" etc. but nothing more than that. And with ifs and buts you don't win championships. We need concrete results like those acheived by Kimi and Alonso in their first year at Ferrari.

MAssa has no interest whatsoever to leave Ferrari. If he were to do that, in one or maybe two years he would be out F1 for good.

Two, Ferrari would not be crashed at all about his departure. For all we know actually he might be already on his way out. And to be honest I have no clue why Ferrari had Kimi go and kept Massa. We all saw how Kimi blossomed as soon as Massa was out due to his accident.

Talking about the difference of these two pilots, Alonso is doing in a couple of months what Massa has been dreaming to do during all his years at Ferrari. Obviously the same applies for Kimi.

Massa is a very mediocre driver incredibly lucky to be in Ferrari. There are plenty of talents out there dying right now to take his place and show what real talent can do given the chance to drive for Ferrari.

I see you've had a thorough briefing by StD!! :p :

[Bezza]

How did Massa not get a penalty when Petrov did? IMO Petrov has unfortunate as he got squashed between a couple of cars, Massa just blasted down the inside and made a mess of it

More Ferrari bias, it is getting annoying.

[Ranger]

How did Massa not get a penalty when Petrov did? IMO Petrov has unfortunate as he got squashed between a couple of cars, Massa just blasted down the inside and made a mess of it

More Ferrari bias, it is getting annoying.

Not bias, just a bad decision.

[ShiftingGears]

I think you'll find that Bunsen also had to contend with the wrong tyre strategy. Can't blame the guy for that now, can we?

Well yes actually - he did insist that he use it.

[wedge]

If you ask me that's TEAM ORDERS the McLaren way. In fact, how coincidental. LH is 8th and Button, ahead of LH, gets the wrong tires on his car. Equal status equal=equipment=treatment. Right? Not reeally.

What team orders (favouring LH)?


He gifted P4 to Button.

[turismo6]

Jenson's call on the tires, he tried something and it didn't work, he tried something in Australia and it did work. You win some, you lose some. No team orders.

[Duchess]

How did Massa not get a penalty when Petrov did? IMO Petrov has unfortunate as he got squashed between a couple of cars, Massa just blasted down the inside and made a mess of it

More Ferrari bias, it is getting annoying.

More than a day gone and I'm still angry about this. Doesn't help to dispel my position of wanting Massa done and gone from F1 (and have for a long time now). I also want to force choke the stewards, but alas we can't get everything in life... :vader:

[Big Ben]

where´s sainty? let´s throw him a bait see if he shows up. Perhaps this proves Button is more of a gambler than a clever strategist.

[maximilian]

If it wasn't for Schumacher, Massa would be the donkey of the season! The way Alonso has immediately taken over the team and outscored the Brazilian left Felipe looking pretty ordinary. I think he would be well advised to change teams ASAP...

[ioan]

I see, speaking of team orders.....AGAIN........ I wonder how many nights you guys have spent tormenting yourselves over the matter. :)

None. We have got our own lives, you know! :p :



Massa is a very mediocre driver incredibly lucky to be in Ferrari.

Load of BS!
I wonder what kind of person can say this about a driver who contributed to several WCC's and WDC's, almost won one (lost it because of engine failures and stupid race strategies), and almost got killed while racing for Ferrari?!
I am more than happy not to be called a tifoso anymore and be considered in the same group with people who post crap like your post above. :down:

[ioan]

I also want to force choke the stewards, but alas we can't get everything in life... :vader:

:rolleyes: :?:

[ioan]

What team orders (favouring LH)?


He gifted P4 to Button.

You're losing your time.

[truefan72]

yep a worthy candidate


The catch here is that the further he falls behind Alonso the more likely he is to be asked to play second fiddle next season. If Massa performs poorly for the remiander of the season Ferrari are very likely to install Alonso as a clear #1 from the start of next season. How will Massa feel then?

What he needs to do is prove to Ferrari that they have two equal drivers and the only way to do that is to be at or close to Alonso's pace. Alonso made him look silly this weekend.
I think Massa is on his way out of Ferrari. Clearly does not like the situationand probably wants no part of it in 2010


Why is everyone blaming Mercedes? The suspension just broke, no loose wheel nut.
car failures do happen and this looked like one of them.


Wow, I only saw 2-3 replays of the start, but this is what I saw:

Nico gets a terrible start, and tries to keep the two drivers directly behind him (Massa and Petrov) by moving toward the MIDDLE of the track. Massa clear and continues to the right, and after Petrov gets almost completely by tries to move left to set up for T1, clips Nico in the right front. It was a carbon copy of the Vettel / Webber crash in Turkey.

Massa keeps his foot in it and is weaving to get by Rosberg, who also started poorly, but by this time they are on the approach to the first part of the double-apex. Massa refuses to check up and goes for a very small (and getting smaller) gap to the right, hits the wet grass, and skids across the entire grid, only managing to take out one car in the process.

Knowing he had a dangerously slow start Hulkenberg should have been less defensive and more proactive in avoiding the cars streaming past him.
For his part, Vitaly was much quicker than NH at that point and should have been more patient, as there was still a great deal of the straight ahead. Still, I don't see that what he did was worse than what Massa did.

Alguesuari looked like he deliberately drove into Kamui.

good analysis


There is definitely a couple of protaganists for the donkey label this time around. I think it has to go to the nutjob at Renault who screwed up the wheel on Kubica's car. I was most excited to see how Robert would perform when he was lying 2nd. Alas, no :(
that is my #1 donkey


Yes Massa is , looks like He is been blownaway at ferrari by Alonso...
Massa to go out of ferarri and how about having Lewis Hamilton in that seat.. Lewis will win the next 10years of WDC with them !
never !!!!


I'm half-wondering if Massa's sandbagged the past couple of races, after the team orders verdict came in...
yep

[truefan72]

LH is the very donkey of the race for keeping in digging his hole deeper and deeper
so his gearbox brakes after he starts reeling in Alonso at an incredible pace. prompting the team to tell Alonso to get on with it and Alonso replying "I am trying". The same gearbox issue that saw him drop 5 grid places after qualy where he spectacularly showed that by sheer determination and racecraft, he can drag his mclaren up to 3rd behind the RBR's. Yeah, a real donkey performance then right?

[truefan72]

Two, Ferrari would not be crashed at all about his departure. For all we know actually he might be already on his way out. And to be honest I have no clue why Ferrari had Kimi go and kept Massa.

err...Alonso? not willing to drive with another world class teammate?


We all saw how Kimi blossomed as soon as Massa was out due to his accident.
due to the same reasons why massa is not doing well right now.Ferrari's favoritism and singular mindedness which always biases one driver over the other. by 2009 it was clearly massa's team and kimi by his nature was apathetic to the whole situation. As soon as massa fell out. They were back to supporting his side of the garage fully and the results showed it. Kimi has never been one to be intimidated or affected by teammates, most of whom have been world class, so to me the only equation in 2009 was the team dynamic.

[keysersoze]

good analysis

I made one mistake. It wasn't Massa directly in front of Petrov--it was Nick Heidfeld. Heidfeld got by the slow-starting Nico Hulkenberg by jinking to the right, then when he saw the inside balked by Rosberg, he moved back to the left, which caused Vitaly to also move left to avoid him (he was two meters off his gearbox and closing fast); unfortunately, the Russian wasn't clear of NH.

[nigelred5]

Does ANYONE even close to being an equal want to be Alonzo's teammate Especially if they are told FA's the number 1?, He doesn't exactly seem to get on with anyone in the same car or put up with anything even remotely resembling equal treatment. Didn't work at McLaren, wasn't ever going to work at Ferrari. I can't say I was exactly excited when it was announced e would become a Ferrari driver

[mstillhere]

What trash. :down:

Straight from JB on Saturday:





You conveniently ignore that Massa was much better than Kimi, paid three times as much as he was, in 2008 and 2009. Felipe lost far more points through failure of the team/car that season than he did through mistakes of his own.



Blossomed??

Anyone would 'blossom' next to Luca Badoer.

Up until Hungary, Massa was beating Kimi 22-10. He was the better driver that year.



So what if Alonso doesn't win the title in his first year? :\

What has Massa won? Let me help you: NADA.

Even if Alonso does not win he still out performed in his first year Massa huge. Not too shabby uh?

As for as for Button: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/87378

And from Autosport:

Jenson Button has questioned whether it was the correct strategy for him to remain on the prime tyre for the majority of the Japanese Grand Prix, while his rivals began the race on 'option' Bridgestone and pitted sooner.

On top of all that I dont think you know much of what happened at Ferrari when Kimi was there, that's what's trash. btw. Massa has had a huge initial advantage over his colleagues which is: testing next year's car while his future mates did not have the same privilage. It's obvious that's a huge advantage for Massa. And yet, Kimi shows up the first year and won the tittle. Massa I think did his best but his best in not enoughfor Ferrari. Alonso shows up and he could win te tittle too. First try with Ferrari. Hum...where is Massa? Hum....12th? Hey but if you like him, have him. I wish he going to be hired by your favorite team.

[mstillhere]

I see you've had a thorough briefing by StD!! :p :

Yes I must confess :)

[mstillhere]

I guess your either should have watched the race or paid attention, or got a true account of what Button said before making a series of ridiculous comments. This is pure trolling I'm afraid. :dozey:

His words:
"Jenson Button has questioned whether it was the correct strategy for him to remain on the prime tyre for the majority of the Japanese Grand Prix, while his rivals began the race on 'option' Bridgestone and pitted sooner."

[mstillhere]

How did Massa not get a penalty when Petrov did? IMO Petrov has unfortunate as he got squashed between a couple of cars, Massa just blasted down the inside and made a mess of it

More Ferrari bias, it is getting annoying.

Boy....Ferrari. Those cheaters

[mstillhere]

What team orders (favouring LH)?


He gifted P4 to Button.

He had no choice. If things would have gone to plan JB would have finished behind LH.

[mstillhere]

More than a day gone and I'm still angry about this. Doesn't help to dispel my position of wanting Massa done and gone from F1 (and have for a long time now). :vader:

And so do I. Since last year.

[mstillhere]

None. We have got our own lives, you know! :p :



Load of BS!
I wonder what kind of person can say this about a driver who contributed to several WCC's and WDC's, almost won one (lost it because of engine failures and stupid race strategies), and almost got killed while racing for Ferrari?!
I am more than happy not to be called a tifoso anymore and be considered in the same group with people who post crap like your post above. :down:

Contributing to a team and almost winning one is no nealry close to WINNING for a team. Badoer contributes to Ferrari too. I would expect more, much more from the pilots.

Also, I really don't care who you support now, but please since I don't insult your posts I would expect the same in return. Thank you.

[mstillhere]

so his gearbox brakes after he starts reeling in Alonso at an incredible pace. prompting the team to tell Alonso to get on with it and Alonso replying "I am trying". The same gearbox issue that saw him drop 5 grid places after qualy where he spectacularly showed that by sheer determination and racecraft, he can drag his mclaren up to 3rd behind the RBR's. Yeah, a real donkey performance then right?

That's exactly my point. He was beating the s.....t out of his car while trying to put pressure on Alonso although we all know ha had no chance to pass him. He was not fast enough.

The guy is obviously under an enormous amount of pressure. He obvioulsy is not managing his stress level well at all. And the fact that he, not Button, has been lately constantly involved in crashes and technical failures has nothing to do with fate. He thinks everything is lost right now so he has nothing to lose by being as aggressive as he can. However his car has a limit and I think it is showing now.

[mstillhere]

err...Alonso? not willing to drive with another world class teammate?


due to the same reasons why massa is not doing well right now.Ferrari's favoritism and singular mindedness which always biases one driver over the other. by 2009 it was clearly massa's team and kimi by his nature was apathetic to the whole situation. As soon as massa fell out. They were back to supporting his side of the garage fully and the results showed it. Kimi has never been one to be intimidated or affected by teammates, most of whom have been world class, so to me the only equation in 2009 was the team dynamic.

Absolutely. And as I wrote earlier I have no idea what Ferrari was thinking at the time. It was very unusual. I mean it was very clear to me that Kimi was way better than Massa. I mean a world champion with many many more achievemnets than Massa on his belt. Yet Ferrari did not seem to favor the stronger pilot, Kimi in this instance and I would never understand that.

I think they got it now though. So, that's why Massa is where he is. I would like to say something dough. At the beginning of the season I think Massa had a fair shot at the championship. Unfortunately for him Alonso started outperforming him on the track and therefore if there is anyone to be blamed is himself. Actually tt times Massa seemed more concerned about racing his team mate than anyone else on the track. Which to me means he was racing to save his job, not racing for Ferrari and for the world tittle.

[mstillhere]

Does ANYONE even close to being an equal want to be Alonzo's teammate Especially if they are told FA's the number 1?, He doesn't exactly seem to get on with anyone in the same car or put up with anything even remotely resembling equal treatment. Didn't work at McLaren, wasn't ever going to work at Ferrari. I can't say I was exactly excited when it was announced e would become a Ferrari driver

It was the same when MS was there. Alonso seems to be operating the same way as MS did when he was at Ferrari. And I don't know if McLaren does not do the same. Read this article: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/87416.

Not ONE word about Button especially at the end of the article.

[Valve Bounce]

Breathless!! :eek:

[ioan]

Contributing to a team and almost winning one is no nealry close to WINNING for a team. Badoer contributes to Ferrari too. I would expect more, much more from the pilots.

Also, I really don't care who you support now, but please since I don't insult your posts I would expect the same in return. Thank you.

What you posted about Massa was an insult to any human being with a touch of common sense.

[mstillhere]

What you posted about Massa was an insult to any human being with a touch of common sense.

Are you sayin that you want to start a war of insults? I know you'll win right away and that would get you banned for a while. AGAIN! Which it would not be such a loss.

[mstillhere]

His words yes, but he also made the call so he is questioning his own judgement. Here is that interview:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/9077756.stm

Jenson made the call to start on the prime tyres and he misjudged how quick everyone else was once they had changed to the option tyre. He thought the team left him out abit long but he had lost pace through the original call anyway.

You suggested earlier in this thread that it was somehow a team order and the team effectively screwed up his strategy. Perhaps if you watch the interview rather than make assumptions from a snippet quote in Autosport, you'd know that was false. :)

There are other quotes where he is blaming his team for leaving him out there for so long. But I really don't want to do a tit for a tat. It would be too childish. My point in all this is that there is a chance, and nobody can deny that, ONE chance that McLaren artfully keeps Button very close to LH, very close but yet a hair behind.

[truefan72]

You're welcome to cling to that if you wish, but the way I see it is he just doesn't match Lewis's pace. We didn't have Hamilton fans earlier in the season when Jenson won two races claiming the team were favouring Jenson did we? I think you are going to have an opposing view to anything Hamilton does, regardless of what facts are out there.

pretty much sums it up

[ioan]

Are you sayin that you want to start a war of insults? I know you'll win right away and that would get you banned for a while. AGAIN! Which it would not be such a loss.

:rolleyes:

[ioan]

You're welcome to cling to that if you wish, but the way I see it is he just doesn't match Lewis's pace. We didn't have Hamilton fans earlier in the season when Jenson won two races claiming the team were favouring Jenson did we? I think you are going to have an opposing view to anything Hamilton does, regardless of what facts are out there.

:up:

[jens]

What is it with Renault and wheelnuts? They seem to have such problems more often than other teams... also recalling Hungary '06 and '09. Very frustrating - a brilliant result and possible P6 in WDC standings out of the window due to an extremely careless mistake. :(

Pity about Alguersuari too. Again he was beating Buemi last weekend, but another careless move handed that point over to the Swiss driver. One day he ought to learn and start collecting those points he could be getting on pace now.

[mstillhere]

You're welcome to cling to that if you wish, but the way I see it is he just doesn't match Lewis's pace. We didn't have Hamilton fans earlier in the season when Jenson won two races claiming the team were favouring Jenson did we? I think you are going to have an opposing view to anything Hamilton does, regardless of what facts are out there.

Are you kidding? Everyone knew and knows that JB was the underdog with no a chance to win the championship. Plenty of journalists telling him he had made the wrong decision.

No LH fan would have ever believed that JB would have ever represented a threat to LH. His first victories? Just the tresult of poor Lewis performance. Nothing to do with his skills. That's why no LH fan worried. And in fact...........

I personally completely respect JB. He's a true gentleman who has won and wins fair and square without playing any dirty tricks. His team mate instead is going to publish a book about it. And any LH fan knows that too.

[airshifter]

Are you kidding? Everyone knew and knows that JB was the underdog with no a chance to win the championship. Plenty of journalists telling him he had made the wrong decision.

No LH fan would have ever believed that JB would have ever represented a threat to LH. His first victories? Just the tresult of poor Lewis performance. Nothing to do with his skills. That's why no LH fan worried. And in fact...........

I personally completely respect JB. He's a true gentleman who has won and wins fair and square without playing any dirty tricks. His team mate instead is going to publish a book about it. And any LH fan knows that too.

Mr Fair and Square Button decided to make a pass on Lewis after both drivers were told to conserve fuel, but I'm sure somehow it was a gentlemanly thing to do right?

In my view Jenson is the underdog only due to the fact that Lewis can outdrive him. I don't really care if either of them wins another title, and don't consider myself a big fan of either.

You can hate Lewis all you like, but it doesn't change your conspiracy theory opinion into fact.

[Mia 01]

Have the Red Mist ever hitted Jenson, Lewis on the other hand.

Lewis is skilled and aggressive, Jenson skilled and smoth.

Still, I think that Jenson will end higher than Lewis in the championship. Red Mist.

[ArrowsFA1]

Plenty of journalists telling him he had made the wrong decision.
Which means very little 1) because they themselves have now been proved wrong and 2) because I think many underestimated how well JB would stack up against Hamilton, as I did.

The perception was that JB made a very brave move to walk away from what was seen as 'his' team, and the WDC & WCC winning team, to step into Hamilton's 'home' in a team which hadn't won the WCC since 1998.

The fact is that McLaren, Hamilton & Button continue to work very well as a team with all of them being in contention for both championships. A three point difference between drivers is not what many journalists thought would happen.

[Garry Walker]

Which means very little 1) because they themselves have now been proved wrong and 2) because I think many underestimated how well JB would stack up against Hamilton, as I did.

The perception was that JB made a very brave move to walk away from what was seen as 'his' team, and the WDC & WCC winning team, to step into Hamilton's 'home' in a team which hadn't won the WCC since 1998.

The fact is that McLaren, Hamilton & Button continue to work very well as a team with all of them being in contention for both championships. A three point difference between drivers is not what many journalists thought would happen.

The three point difference is there only because so much bad luck has gone against Lewis. When it comes to real performances, LH has almost always been clearly faster than Button.

[Dave B]

The three point difference is there only because so much bad luck has gone against Lewis.
Who had a bung left in their car at Monaco?

Who got hit by Vettel at Spa?

It's impossible to know how many points those two incidents may have cost him, but you can't say that JB hasn't had his share of bad luck this season.

[Retro Formula 1]

The three point difference is there only because so much bad luck has gone against Lewis. When it comes to real performances, LH has almost always been clearly faster than Button.

You have a good point but it also demonstrates a weakness of Lewis.

You call it bad luck but Hamilton has a habit of getting himself in race ending positions. I don't want to see him curb his aggression but he needs to stop going for the passes where he leaves an opportunity for someone to chop his nose off.

The incident with Alonso was like watching a accident in slow motion because you knew he was going in stupid and the Webber one could easily have been avoided if he allowed a bit of room instead of trying to take the apex and rely on Webber not hitting him.

The points he lost have cost him the championship this year and it cannot happen again.

[Mia 01]

You have a good point but it also demonstrates a weakness of Lewis.

You call it bad luck but Hamilton has a habit of getting himself in race ending positions. I don't want to see him curb his aggression but he needs to stop going for the passes where he leaves an opportunity for someone to chop his nose off.

The incident with Alonso was like watching a accident in slow motion because you knew he was going in stupid and the Webber one could easily have been avoided if he allowed a bit of room instead of trying to take the apex and rely on Webber not hitting him.

The points he lost have cost him the championship this year and it cannot happen again.

On the nail.

[airshifter]

Hit head. :imubash: :s mash:

And I'll third that thought. :D


Jenson has done much better driving against Lewis than I expected he would. Lewis has once again become his own worst enemy lately. If he just calmed down and accepted lower positions he should be quite clear of Jenson in points. Then again, it could be stated that Jenson has been too slow to get into trouble at the front of the pack too. :s mokin:

In terms of bad luck, Lewis has had one more retirement due to car failure when compared to Jenson. Granted those points would be huge right now, but Lewis has cost himself more points than the car has.

[DexDexter]

It should be pretty evident to everybody who seriously follow F1 that Hamilton is the faster of the two. Having said that, Button seems to have developed into a little Prost, the guy thinks about what he is doing and makes good calls more often than not whereas Hamilton just drives the wheels off the car.

[52Paddy]

Having said that, Button seems to have developed into a little Prost

I agree. Very similar approaches.

[mstillhere]

Just as I thought (more or less):
http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns22687.html