Promoters deal with low attendance in '11??

[Steve-o]

The Homestead race was embarrassing as far as attendance is concerned. I contacted promoters from Milwaukee, Iowa, and NHMS, to see how they will attack this issue.

http://www.fanviewpoint.com/2010/10/indycar-championship-at-homestead.html

[Mark in Oshawa]

I can tell you right now Steve, Homestead had lousy attendance because I think it was in the interest of ISC to tank the promotion of the race....

Then again, who really knows? Empty seats have been at NASCAR events all season....

[Lousada]

I can tell you right now Steve, Homestead had lousy attendance because I think it was in the interest of ISC to tank the promotion of the race....

Then again, who really knows? Empty seats have been at NASCAR events all season....

That there is a great conspiracy of Nascar against the IRL is a great myth. If Nascar wanted to kill Indycar they'd simply stop the BY400. Then there is the fact that ISC is a publicy traded company. No way they deliberately take large losses just for the heck of it. The shareholders would never allow that.

You have to open your eyes and see that no amount of promotion is ever going to draw big crowds to Indycars Homestead. Even the Indy500 and Texas saw large drops in attendance this year.

[Steve-o]

That there is a great conspiracy of Nascar against the IRL is a great myth. If Nascar wanted to kill Indycar they'd simply stop the BY400. Then there is the fact that ISC is a publicy traded company. No way they deliberately take large losses just for the heck of it. The shareholders would never allow that.

You have to open your eyes and see that no amount of promotion is ever going to draw big crowds to Indycars Homestead. Even the Indy500 and Texas saw large drops in attendance this year.

Do you folks think there's a possiblity NASCAR is looking to take control of IndyCar?

[Otto-Matic]

Do you folks think there's a possiblity NASCAR is looking to take control of IndyCar?

to Lousada's point, this has been another huge conspiricay over the years. from a strickly business, real world POV the answer would have to be "yes" . IndyCar still has assests that would be positive $$$ to NASCAR. the few IC races that turned a profit and of course the Brickyard. if Nascar had total control they'd have a monopoly on all the major raceing series in the US (sans ALMS).

now if thats practical for NASCAR is an entirerly different matter...

[Steve-o]

I can tell you right now Steve, Homestead had lousy attendance because I think it was in the interest of ISC to tank the promotion of the race....

Then again, who really knows? Empty seats have been at NASCAR events all season....

I would think you'd sell 12k tickets (if that) to a race like this by accident. Championship weekend? Hell, there's gotta be more than 12k Danica fans out there... :)

Regarding the empty seats at NASCAR, you can only hi-gross folks for so long. I know tracks are offering deals now, but the combination of high prices and NASCAR handcuffing drivers on the track and in interviews has hurt them. I think the 'have at it boys' policy is a step in the right direction with that series. The racing has never been paramount in NASCAR, the personalities have driven the sport. Now they have returned to that type of promotion, letting the boys be boys.

[harvick#1]

I can tell you right now Steve, Homestead had lousy attendance because I think it was in the interest of ISC to tank the promotion of the race....

Then again, who really knows? Empty seats have been at NASCAR events all season....


cause everyone went to Petit, they must have had around 70K in attendance on race day, and I dont blame them, it was a spectacular race and weekend. Spec racing is dying and innovation is becoming a new thing for fans

[anthonyvop]

I can tell you right now Steve, Homestead had lousy attendance because I think it was in the interest of ISC to tank the promotion of the race....



HMS promoted this years event more than they have the previous years. You couldn't tune in a radio station without hearing the ads. 500 spots on local TV. Drivers were everywhere doing promotions.

The problem is the product. In an International City like Miami not many people care about an Spec Oval Racing Series.

I talk with a lot of people over the weekend including teams, PR people and media and most agreed with my theory. Run the race on the Road Course at Night and you will easily get 30K +

[Otto-Matic]

There might be a few anti-trust implications there.

since when has that ever stopped the American Dream :p

[Lee Roy]

HMS promoted this years event more than they have the previous years. You couldn't tune in a radio station without hearing the ads. 500 spots on local TV. Drivers were everywhere doing promotions.


Whoops. There goes Standard Excuse for Failure #3.

[anthonyvop]

Whoops. There goes Standard Excuse for Failure #3.

There is only one excuse now.....The Product.

[Steve-o]

HMS promoted this years event more than they have the previous years. You couldn't tune in a radio station without hearing the ads. 500 spots on local TV. Drivers were everywhere doing promotions.

The problem is the product. In an International City like Miami not many people care about an Spec Oval Racing Series.

I talk with a lot of people over the weekend including teams, PR people and media and most agreed with my theory. Run the race on the Road Course at Night and you will easily get 30K +

Just so I understand your point, your theory is: Miami is more 'international', therefore they are not interested in "only left turn" racing? The problem is the oval track style of racing?

[anthonyvop]

Just so I understand your point, your theory is: Miami is more 'international', therefore they are not interested in "only left turn" racing? The problem is the oval track style of racing?

One of the problems...A big one but just one.

[Steve-o]

One of the problems...A big one but just one.

mind you, I'm the new guy around here, and not trying to create an argument... but how can NASCAR go in there in a month with the taxi cabs and come a helluva lot closer to filling the place? Driver recognition?

[anthonyvop]

mind you, I'm the new guy around here, and not trying to create an argument... but how can NASCAR go in there in a month with the taxi cabs and come a helluva lot closer to filling the place? Driver recognition?

I was told that a good 70% of tickets for the NASCAR race at HMS are purchased by fans outside of the Homestead/Miami area. Also remember that HMS is one of the smallest tracks on the NASCAR schedule with only 65K seats.
Even with that all factored in there are still plenty of seats available and the NASCAR race has only been a sell-out before race weekend 3 times.

[Steve-o]

I was told that a good 70% of tickets for the NASCAR race at HMS are purchased by fans outside of the Homestead/Miami area. Also remember that HMS is one of the smallest tracks on the NASCAR schedule with only 65K seats.
Even with that all factored in there are still plenty of seats available and the NASCAR race has only been a sell-out before race weekend 3 times.

The geography would make sense. I'm sure many other tracks have similar numbers. Looking at the south, you have so many tracks looking to sell to essentially the same fans.

[Enjun Pullr]

Anothony, couple of questions please?

I looked around (from afar) in the days leading up to the Homestead race, and found very little evidence of the local promotions you referred to. Dade County Mall, the discount gas station deal...that's about all I found.

In addition to both of those promotions last year, there was also a glitzy fashion show and hotel volleyball/beach party deal.

With the ISC ticket package split, the handwriting was already on the wall for this race. The appearance is that promotion was consistant at best, or perhaps decreased. If the last minute ticket price drop was not heavily advertised locally, it would have done no good either.

The other puzzle you outlined is the demographic of the ticket buyers: if 70% are not local, then the big jump in local promotion you speak of was money spent in the wrong place. Right?

[Jag_Warrior]

I would think you'd sell 12k tickets (if that) to a race like this by accident. Championship weekend? Hell, there's gotta be more than 12k Danica fans out there... :)

I fully agree with you. Rather than blaming NASCAR/ISC for this incredibly low turnout, one would think that the IRL would be looking in the mirror and doing a deep-dive to figure out why so few people turned out for a championship weekend. Unless there were NASCAR thugs armed with AK-47's encircling the area, preventing fans from entering, the question remains: how did an IRL championship deciding race garner no more fans than a mid-season ALMS "roval" race in Charlotte, that received ZERO promotion, about 10 years ago???


Regarding the empty seats at NASCAR, you can only hi-gross folks for so long. I know tracks are offering deals now, but the combination of high prices and NASCAR handcuffing drivers on the track and in interviews has hurt them. I think the 'have at it boys' policy is a step in the right direction with that series. The racing has never been paramount in NASCAR, the personalities have driven the sport. Now they have returned to that type of promotion, letting the boys be boys.

Again, I agree with you. And the same used to be true in American open wheel racing. While (IMO) the cars were way cooler back then than what we have now, we also used to have world class personalities (and great drivers) like Mario Andretti, Emerson Fittipaldi, Nigel Mansell, Alex Zanardi, Juan Montoya, Paul Tracy, Michael Andretti, Al Unser (Sr. and Jr.), A.J. Foyt, et al. Now we have an overhyped bikini model, who's managed to trip over a lonely win once in her career, as the biggest "star" in the sport. I have to agree with Anthonyvop when he says that "the product" is the problem. But within that, there are several factors, and key among them (IMO) is the lack of recognizeable names that are capable of posting brilliant drives. As I bounce around Charlotte, I've probably run across Ryan Briscoe or Will Power at the mall or where ever. But to be honest, even though I recognize them during races, their faces aren't burned into my mind well enough that I would know them away from the track or TV. And since there would be no crowd of people around either, I'm sure that they can lead peaceful lives there. Juan Montoya, Jimmie Johnson, Dale, Jr. or Carl Edwards on the other hand... :eek:

So what does the IRL do now? I don't know. I don't know how to push a string across a table. And I think that's the position in which the IRL has now placed itself: trying to push a string across a (rough) table. But I would suggest that they begin promoting the drivers that they believe are the future of the sport, so that people feel some motivation to go to the track to see those drivers. Otherwise, what promoter in his right mind would pay a sanction fee to the IRL for the honor of having 10K people drag through the gate on a "big weekend"???

[Enjun Pullr]

I watched something last night which was insightful, at least to me...I'm not a real big IRL/CCWS history buff.

It was the 2005 Homestead race. The stands were packed... to see the drivers? We have like eleven of them still competing, and they have established no broad recognition (outside of your favorite broad, that is).

The drivers you named, Jag, those guys brought out the fans. The roster we have today does not, even after years and championships past.

So who showed up at Homestead 2005? An army of Buddy Rice/ Sam Hornish supporters? The personalities are important, no doubt. But I think the arguments about star-making, U.S./ foreign driver counts, etc. are all side bets.

The product is the entertainment value of the competition, and that is what has grown stale. Even Danica haters must have loved the little dice she put on with TK. With spec cars and stratified budgets, unpredictability like that is all too rare a result.

[Jag_Warrior]

Even Danica haters must have loved the little dice she put on with TK.

I am a loyal, dues paying member of the Can't Stand Danica Fan Club. But yes, even I had to give the dog (fluffy show poodle) its due for that performance. Kanaan blocked her more than I've seen in any race in recent memory. But she dropped back near the end and dive bombed him, taking a well deserved second place in a straight fight. I was amazed; I didn't know she had it in her. Unfortunately I'll probably be drawing Social Security before she does that again. :dozey:

[Enjun Pullr]

It was good stuff. So was the finish of the Brasil race, and more than a couple of other moments during the year.

And on the rare occasions when the product is good enough...don't you think 2 out of 100 people would buy it if they watched?

[Steve-o]

Again, I agree with you. And the same used to be true in American open wheel racing. While (IMO) the cars were way cooler back then than what we have now, we also used to have world class personalities (and great drivers) like Mario Andretti, Emerson Fittipaldi, Nigel Mansell, Alex Zanardi, Juan Montoya, Paul Tracy, Michael Andretti, Al Unser (Sr. and Jr.), A.J. Foyt, et al. Now we have an overhyped bikini model, who's managed to trip over a lonely win once in her career, as the biggest "star" in the sport. I have to agree with Anthonyvop when he says that "the product" is the problem. But within that, there are several factors, and key among them (IMO) is the lack of recognizeable names that are capable of posting brilliant drives. As I bounce around Charlotte, I've probably run across Ryan Briscoe or Will Power at the mall or where ever. But to be honest, even though I recognize them during races, their faces aren't burned into my mind well enough that I would know them away from the track or TV. And since there would be no crowd of people around either, I'm sure that they can lead peaceful lives there. Juan Montoya, Jimmie Johnson, Dale, Jr. or Carl Edwards on the other hand... :eek:


Good Post.

It seems to me we have nailed down the issues in this thread: poor racing, low wattage stars, and poor promotion. Am I missing something? I think the masses will come back based on star power, but they wont stick around if the product is poor. And...you can't build stars with poor racing. Otherwise, we have a PR machine that tells us how great 'the overhyped bikini model' is. (love that reference, BTW) So it boils down to product? The Field of Dreams Effect? (if you build it, they will come) I saw some pretty decent racing Saturday night. Vs. drew 400k viewers. We can have all the good racing you can stand, but if no one's watching, who cares.

I will say, as the new guy around here, you guys are pretty insightful. I don't see a lot of the bitching that goes on in other forums. Good posts overall, nice job.

[Steve-o]

... But she dropped back near the end and dive bombed him, taking a well deserved second place in a straight fight. I was amazed; I didn't know she had it in her. Unfortunately I'll probably be drawing Social Security before she does that again. :dozey:

Let's hope not. The better she does, the better the circuit will do. Like it or not, they have hitched thier wagons to her. She needs a lot more wins and a lot more performances like that.

[Enjun Pullr]

"... the masses will come back based on star power, but they wont stick around if the product is poor".

And that is why the $20M Indy500/ Charlotte 600 philosophy is hollow. Sure, maybe you prop up one race (which needs the least help) by sticking Kyle Bush in a D&R car. But he doesn't win, or continue to draw interest by running mid-pack for a full season.

Improve the product to stage good competition, then promote it like you stole it.

[nigelred5]

The Honda powered racing on-track is as boing as the Honda Odyssey or whatever that you just passed on the highway. Good reliable cars, but boring as all #ell.

They need manufacturer competetion and less ride buying piss poor racers that are good at nothing but wading up 2-3 cars a weekend. International racers were and are fine when they are quality drivers like Power, but they need to drag along a few accomplishments like a GP2 championship or some decent personality. Spec racing with a revolving door of anonymous zombies driving the cars is cr@p.

[Enjun Pullr]

Nigel, I have to admit just now watching the 2005 Homestead race and delighting at the sight of two Hondas blowing up.

Another competing engine is the first step in changing anything. Honda didn't want to be sole supplier in '06, I'd be inclined to believe them now too.

[px400r]

Another competing engine is the first step in changing anything. Honda didn't want to be sole supplier in '06, I'd be inclined to believe them now too.

Then why were they so adamant on a V6 when everyone else (i.e., potential competitors) wanted inline fours?

[Enjun Pullr]

px400r: I think all the answers are in the Gordon Kirby article from April 2010 linked below, which is almost entirely in the own words of HPD's Erik Berkman.

Here Berkman is talking specifically about the 2.8 V6 for ALMS, but the strategy appears to be the same for the next IndyCar 2.4 V6. Honda had no intention of developing a GRE.

"We've been working very closely with the ACO regarding the sports car racing rules," Berkman says. "They've got new rules in 2011 and we've got a production-based V-6 engine that's under development right now that will be out there next year. Think Odyssey, Ridgeline, Pilot, Honda Accord or Acura TL. That family of engines is going to evolve into a full-on race engine that will be in P2 cars from next year."

There hadn't been much written in public about Honda's plans until this article came out, and it explained everything that had been hinted at previously. Most everything that Berkman refers to in the article has already come to pass. There is no reason to suspect his motives, as far as I can read.

ICONIC took what they were offered, and left the regulations open to accept a four cylinder. The chassis is designed to accept one, should a manufacturer step up. That's the only options, other than to also permit continued use of the V8 alongside the V6. Nobody seems interested in that prospect.

Full article:
http://www.gordonkirby.com/categories/columns/theway/2010/the_way_it_is_no231.html

[px400r]

px400r: I think all the answers are in the Gordon Kirby article from April 2010 linked below, which is almost entirely in the own words of HPD's Erik Berkman.

Here Berkman is talking specifically about the 2.8 V6 for ALMS, but the strategy appears to be the same for the next IndyCar 2.4 V6. Honda had no intention of developing a GRE.

"We've been working very closely with the ACO regarding the sports car racing rules," Berkman says. "They've got new rules in 2011 and we've got a production-based V-6 engine that's under development right now that will be out there next year. Think Odyssey, Ridgeline, Pilot, Honda Accord or Acura TL. That family of engines is going to evolve into a full-on race engine that will be in P2 cars from next year."

There hadn't been much written in public about Honda's plans until this article came out, and it explained everything that had been hinted at previously. Most everything that Berkman refers to in the article has already come to pass. There is no reason to suspect his motives, as far as I can read.

ICONIC took what they were offered, and left the regulations open to accept a four cylinder. The chassis is designed to accept one, should a manufacturer step up. That's the only options, other than to also permit continued use of the V8 alongside the V6. Nobody seems interested in that prospect.

Full article:
http://www.gordonkirby.com/categories/columns/theway/2010/the_way_it_is_no231.html

IIRC, the IRL did not want an equivalency formula and from what I've read, there was more interest from the manufacturers on a turbo-4/GRE engine than a V6.

I understand why HPD would want to have both the IRL and ALMS engines from the same basic design, but they must know that their objective would not produce the competition that they supposedly desire.

IMO, HPD needs to at least break even on this program, so their competition will come from sportscars while their profit will come from the IRL. It's the IRL that loses.

[NickFalzone]

My opinion is a bit different from the ones I see above. A lot of folks think that the IRL's on-track product is not interesting to the casual fan, and thus the fanbase keeps shrinking. I think that instead the problem is that it no longer appeals as much to the Hardcore fan. What I see is an on-track product that is actually OK to the casual fan. A lot of races this season have been fairly entertaining if you're flipping the channel and happen to watch for a few minutes. I'd say that the racing in 2010 was, on a superficial level at least, more entertaining than the IRL has been in awhile. The problem though is that there's not much beneath the surface. I'd say that the competition level of the drivers is good, the series has 10-15 really talented OW drivers, and maybe 6-10 that have a legit shot at a win each week. That is pretty decent.

What the series needs though is a more competitive 3rd and 4th team that can compete with the Big-2. Andretti has lot a step, and we need another team additionally to spice things up. It also needs a few more American drivers, and it needs more technical variety (ie engine, chassis, etc.). These are the sorts of things that the hardcore fan WANTS, and not only is not getting, but is deciding to leave the sport because the deeper level of interest is not there. The IRL is worrying about getting the casual fan, but the sport has been shrinking primarily because it has lost interest to the hardcore fans. What it needs to be doing is getting those hardcore fans back. They are still out there and would come back if the technical variety and competitive rivalry came back. Right now what they have is an on-track product that is superficially entertaining, but is lacking when it comes to the hardcore fanbase.

[Enjun Pullr]

No manufacturer offered a GRE. Baretzky from Audi has been talking about one for at least two years, and doesn't have one.

Honda wanted to build a V6 to demonstrate relevance to their consumer products.

So IndyCar writes a spec to permit both. The alternative was to dictate a program to their only investing partner, who may not have seen it in their best interest to continue participation.

Re-introducing variables is required to interest both hardcore and casual fans. A new spec, high downforce car is not going to accomplish that, even with minor differences between aero kits. Engine competition will, IndyCar invites it, and that includes 4 cylinder turbos.

The problem is a lack of other partners to make an equivalent investment.

[call_me_andrew]

There might be a few anti-trust implications there.

As NASCAR is a sanctioning body, it may have limited anti-trust protection like the NFL has, but not the absolute anti-trust protection that MLB has.

An example of this in action is the 1985 lawsuit, United States Football League v. National Football League. The USFL felt the NFL had a monopoly by operating teams in most major stadiums and having broadcasting contracts with all 3 major networks, and that this was preventing the USFL from transitioning to a fall schedule to compete directly with the NFL. The jury found that the NFL did have a monopoly, but since the USFL had begun its fall transition before the case went to court, the USFL was only entitled to $1 of damages.

So for someone to sue NASCAR for anti-trust, they have to prove NASCAR is keeping them off television and restricting their access to major tracks.

[Lee Roy]

If NASCAR were to take over IndyCar they would be taken to court not for anti-trust issues, but more likely for a sanity hearing.

[Mark in Oshawa]

HMS promoted this years event more than they have the previous years. You couldn't tune in a radio station without hearing the ads. 500 spots on local TV. Drivers were everywhere doing promotions.

If that is the case, then they truly are hurting...my bad for just dumping a lot of this on ISC. Their MO with Michigan was to not really push the IRL tickets the way they did the NASCAR tickets, and it ended up showing.....


The problem is the product. In an International City like Miami not many people care about an Spec Oval Racing Series.

I talk with a lot of people over the weekend including teams, PR people and media and most agreed with my theory. Run the race on the Road Course at Night and you will easily get 30K +

I think Miami sports fans are a small number compared to the population. Look at the lack of attendance that every sport that isnt' U of M football or the Dolphins gets treated at times...

If the HEAT don't sell out every game, it wouldn't shock me....Miami area sports fans don't have the most sterling record of being there week in week out no matter what...

Still...12k in fans is an embarassment for everyone involved, and they missed a decent race.....no one can say there wasn't action.

[px400r]

No manufacturer offered a GRE. Baretzky from Audi has been talking about one for at least two years, and doesn't have one.


Baretzky disagrees...



Baretzky is frustrated that IndyCar failed to embrace the 'GRE' for its 2012 formula. Earlier this year Randy Bernard told me not a single manufacturer was ready to proceed with a 'GRE' in time for 2012, but Baretzky refutes that assertion.

"I told Randy in March at least three of these engines would be ready to run next year. I said, 'Randy you can have at least three engines. They are on the way.' I knew that at the time because the companies had told me about their plans. Each of Citroen, Ford and BMW have these engines. These three engines will be homologated by January 1st in the coming year and six months later the main components will be on the market and available to anyone who wants to buy them.


The full article is available at: http://gordonkirby.com/categories/columns/theway/2010/the_way_it_is_no257.html



The problem is a lack of other partners to make an equivalent investment.

IMO, the problem is the IRL's aversion to real change.

[Enjun Pullr]

"Randy you can have at least three engines. They are on the way."

"...Citroen, Ford and BMW have these engines..."

Three engines, 1.6L turbocharged, introduced for 2011 WRC competition at the Paris Auto show. 900 HP. If you bolt all three of them together, that is. They are stock block 300 HP engines. Ulrich doesn't even have one of those.

You think you can make 750 HP out of the stock architecture of a 1.6 L Ford Ecoboost engine block? With time to construct bespoke engines and astronomical budgets, it will be a snap for F1.

All of which is irrelevant to Indycar, unless you want to race Delta Wings. Which is irrelevant to IndyCar.

[px400r]

"Randy you can have at least three engines. They are on the way."

"...Citroen, Ford and BMW have these engines..."

Three engines, 1.6L turbocharged, introduced for 2011 WRC competition at the Paris Auto show. 900 HP. If you bolt all three of them together, that is. They are stock block 300 HP engines. Ulrich doesn't even have one of those.

You think you can make 750 HP out of the stock architecture of a 1.6 L Ford Ecoboost engine block? With time to construct bespoke engines and astronomical budgets, it will be a snap for F1.

All of which is irrelevant to Indycar, unless you want to race Delta Wings. Which is irrelevant to IndyCar.

You are correct. All of this is irrelevant to change for the future- which the IRL will likely never see.

[Enjun Pullr]

Well, that reads to me like the "We need the Delta" philosophy, or the "Let it all burn" philosophy. Sorry for my reluctance to accept either.

The point is that no manufacturer has a suitable GRE to install in an Indycar, and none have expressed an interest in funding the development and supply of one. Or a bespoke V6 to match Honda's.

That's cool, Rally cars are fun to watch. Particularly the Ford Fiesta. Duratec 2.0L turbo, run in 2009 at Pike's Peak with 800 HP.

[Steve-o]

That's cool, Rally cars are fun to watch. Particularly the Ford Fiesta. Duratec 2.0L turbo, run in 2009 at Pike's Peak with 800 HP.

They are. But they (rally cars) are not filling stadiums with race fans, either. My opinion is the thing has to be star driven. Like it or not, we live in a TMZ world, where people are interested in celebrity. IndyCar/IRL has hitched thier wagons to Danica, but there is no other driver poised to have the level of off track success that she has enjoyed. She has not lived up to the hype machine, for whatever reason, onthe track. I think they'll come to see 'the pretty girl kick the boy's asses', as long as she does that. At that point, it becomes about product, keeping the people hooked on the sport.

[Enjun Pullr]

The point wasn't about the popularity of WRC ( big overseas), the X Games, or Tanner Foust. It was about the engine.

Hypothetical: Kyle Bush races IndyCar.

His 2011 season begins with little testing because of conflicting race schedules, but Bush gets some pre-season laps at Barber. The top seats are spoken for, so his sponsors buys a full ride with D&R.

Justin Wilson fills him with road racing skillz, and the attendance and TV views are up 30% for the opener at St. Pete. Bush P 16.

Next race, Tags takes him out. Bush punches Tags. The western world is in a tumult.

MO MENTUM. People are watching, Bush earns P11 at the next race. Jury is deliberating...

Indy. One practice crash, qualifies 2 mph off the pace. Lots of cameras, lots more Nascar fans. Everlast signs on and gives him a pair of gloves.

Bush P6. Nascar Jane to Nascar Joe..."Do the red cars always win?"

On goes the season, maybe some decent results, with great luck a podium. Lots of questions. Less people sticking around to hear the answers. Nascar fans realize the deck is stacked, or begin to question the magnificence of their heroes.

Boastful IndyCar fans alienate the newcomers, even though nobody else has a shot in a D&R car either. By season's end, Kyle Bush = Paul Tracy.

The entertainment value is unpredictable competition. That requires variables in equipment, to challenge the skill levels of the drivers and teams. Drivers like Bush are recognized for their success in competition, and perhaps they become stars.

It doesn't work the other way around, not for long. I think Sammy would agree, and Danica will continue to learn.

[Jag_Warrior]

They are. But they (rally cars) are not filling stadiums with race fans, either. My opinion is the thing has to be star driven. Like it or not, we live in a TMZ world, where people are interested in celebrity. IndyCar/IRL has hitched thier wagons to Danica, but there is no other driver poised to have the level of off track success that she has enjoyed. She has not lived up to the hype machine, for whatever reason, onthe track. I think they'll come to see 'the pretty girl kick the boy's asses', as long as she does that. At that point, it becomes about product, keeping the people hooked on the sport.

If the IRL had taken that initial phase of Danicamania and built off of it to build the popularity of the sport, then that would have been great. But that didn't happen. Danica has been on the slide for the past couple of seasons. And now she's pushing 30. Danica has made no secret that her primary mission is to build up "the brand"... not build up the IRL. As you mentioned TMZ, Danica is no different than Kim Kardashian or Paris Hilton in that respect: people who are basically famous for being famous.

IMO, as long as the IRL continues to hitch its wagon to a person who is basically famous for being famous, it will continue to lose "real" fans of the sport... and it will continue to sink into the mire. The TMZ contingent doesn't know a wheel nut from a walnut. They'll come and go as the popularity of the sport (or their favorite faux star) rises and falls. There are those companies which (successfully) market their products to the least common denominators among us (represented by "loyal" TMZ viewers). But if that's how the IRL wants to market itself, we should not expect Mercedes, Porsche, BMW, Maserati, or any other premium automotive brand in the consumer space, to come on board. Mercedes was even upset that Paris Hilton was seen driving (or laying across) its premium SLR McLaren a few years ago. Not every company and not every viewer wants to be connected with the LCD. I know I don't want to be.

But even if she was a worthy, capable racer, the problem with hitching your wagon to one person is that you have to count on that one person to CONSISTENTLY perform at some higher/acceptable level... and you have to count on them to stick around. Danica does not and has not performed at a (consistently) higher level and she doesn't seem to have much of a desire to stick around for much longer... unless she has to (and I think she might have to). When Schumacher was the biggest star in F1, there were still other major supporting players right on his tail. When Michael Jordan was the biggest star in the NBA, there were still other major supporting players right on his tail. NASCAR had Petty, then they got Waltrip and Earnhardt, then Jeff Gordon, Tony Stewart et al and now they have Jimmie Johnson, Kyle Busch et al. And although the situation that the PGA has with Tiger Woods is more similar to the situation that the IRL has with Danica, others have stepped up and the PGA has not dropped like a stone as Tiger has gone through his trials and tribulations. Plus, it's not like Tiger is trying to break into the NBA or the NFL and might be set to leave golf behind anytime soon. Businesses, including sports businesses, that prosper over the long term are more than just one-trick ponies. Apple Computer made its name (and first fortune) on the Macintosh computer line: the one-trick pony. And that's as far as they went. The company almost went under. THEN they came up with the iPhone, iPod, iTunes and now the iPad. Apple is now the second richest company in the entire world in terms of market cap and they're not done yet. They've now left their old rival Microsoft in the dust. It can be done, but it can't be done by continuing to do the same things tomorrow that didn't work yesterday... and that appears to be the rut that the IRL is caught in. If/when Danica retires or goes NASCAR full time, what Plan B does the IRL have??? Other than blaming promoters for not spending what little profit they make on massive promotion and blaming sponsors for not making donations to the cause and networks for not giving them free airtime for the privilege of getting a .7 rating, do they even have a Plan A right now? :confused:

With Dario Franchitti's rather amazing charge from behind to win the championship, the IRL now has an international champion that (according to my girl :rolleyes :) is easy on the eyes (now that he's grown his hair back) and he's married to an A-/B+ Hollywood actress from a well known entertainment family. So there is something of a TMZ connection, without going totally trashy (Coke Ho Central: Paris Hilton and Lindsay Lohan). Chip Ganassi reportedly PAID Joe Montana to be his "date" on the pit stand years ago.... just so he'd have a major personality as a "part owner" of his team. You mean to tell me the IRL can't make some hay with Ashley Judd and whatever Hollyweird friends she has??? If they can't market pretty boy Dario (who is truly a world class driver) with his Hollywood wife by his side, I would question whether or not these people could sell discounted lemonade to rich children on a hot summer day.

[Enjun Pullr]

OK, draw that out and connect the dots.

Get Dario enough face time in enough media outlets to make him recognized and admired.

Then you have to feed people racing clips and hope they are interested;

Tell them when and where the race is on;

Pump them with reminders, hope they have Versus, and decide to tune in. Or hope they have a race close by to attend;

Hope the first race they watch isn't a snoozer, or you probably won't get them to come back.

That works? What am I missing?

Edit: If it works, why didn't the following work:

Bringing in Kim Kardashian and her following, or
Nicholson
Wahlberg
Shaq
T.O.
any of the other dozens of public "icons" to attach their celebrity to the races.

[SoCalPVguy]

If the IRL had taken that initial phase of Danicamania and built off of it to build the popularity of the sport, then that would have been great. But that didn't happen. Danica has been on the slide for the past couple of seasons. And now she's pushing 30. Danica has made no secret that her primary mission is to build up "the brand"... not build up the IRL. As you mentioned TMZ, Danica is no different than Kim Kardashian or Paris Hilton in that respect: people who are basically famous for being famous. ....

Good stuff !!!! BUT we need to get this over to the "All Danica All The Time" thread and keep it alive to 1,000 !!!!!

[Jag_Warrior]

OK, draw that out and connect the dots.

Get Dario enough face time in enough media outlets to make him recognized and admired.

Then you have to feed people racing clips and hope they are interested;

Tell them when and where the race is on;

Pump them with reminders, hope they have Versus, and decide to tune in. Or hope they have a race close by to attend;

Hope the first race they watch isn't a snoozer, or you probably won't get them to come back.

That works? What am I missing?

Edit: If it works, why didn't the following work:

Bringing in Kim Kardashian and her following, or
Nicholson
Wahlberg
Shaq
T.O.
any of the other dozens of public "icons" to attach their celebrity to the races.

Did any of those people really attach their celebrity to races or did they just show up and do a photo op or two? And of the ones on that list, how many races did they attend? One? And outside of that particular race, what sort of promotion was done to let the TMZ/Twitter lemmings know that they were going to the race? Kim Kardashian gets paid to appear at different functions. For enough money, I could probably get her to appear at one of our parties down at the lake. Same with Paris Hilton. Whatever this fat burner outfit is that sponsored young Rahal, I'm sure that Kim made sure their check cleared before she got on the plane to Indy. She has no genuine interest in racing or the IRL. I'm not aware that she's said anything to the contrary, so that has to be my assumption. I'm not aware that she's shown up at any other races, so that kind of nails it for me in regard to her.

In what now seems to be a far-away land, in a time long ago, we used to be considered the kewl kids. Christie Brinkley showed up at not just one CART race, but multiple CART races. This was back when she was still an A-list "super model". We'll leave the Danny Sullivan rumors alone. Long Beach always had some A-listers, but some of them were actually interested in what was going on. When Eddie Lawson gave auto racing a go, his gal-pal Crystal Bernard (the little cutie from the hit TV show Wings) was at the races, just like Ashley is now... only she wasn't as shy around the cameras as Ashley is. Before she got to be better known, Sofia Vergara was the grand marshall for the CART race in Miami. And being a darling of Latin TV, when she went on & on about how much she loved racing and how sexy she thought race cars were, that did not hurt the cause one bit. Joe Montana was on the pit stand with Cheep Ganassi race after race (although his arrangement was reportedly more of a pay-date scheme). And before the nasty divorce, THE race to attend wasn't the Coke 600 or the Daytona 500, it was the Indy 500. We used to have a story to tell and it was an interesting story. Now it seems that no one can even find the book. And my main point is, these people talked about their interest in or their love for racing on talk shows and what not. They got the word out. That's not the magic bullet, but it helps. Every little bit helps.

With each passing year, the To-Do list gets longer and longer. I'm simply pointing out that in Dario the IRL has a potentially marketable driver - that's just ONE area that needs to be addressed. Are they going to market him? Probably not. Will they just sit around in a delusional fog, and just hope that The Danica wins three or four races and brings the ratings and fans back? Probably. Whatever they do to rebuild this series, this sport, it's going to take proper planning, mucho $ and hard work... more & more with each passing, pathetic season. And because AOWR is now closer to being like GP2 than the old CART series, or even the previous iteration of the Indy Racing League, they've got to (re)learn blocking and tackling. I don't care which drivers they choose to market. But they've GOT to market somebody, or really, three or four "somebodys".

Years ago, CART was battling NASCAR Winston Cup for ratings/viewership. Then it and the IRL were battling the Busch Series for ratings/viewership. Then the IRL began battling the Truck series for ratings/viewership. From what I can see now, Grand Am is the next rung down the ladder. After that, it's the IRL vs. reruns of Pinks All Out on Speed Channel. The future doesn't look bright, so I don't think we'll need shades. :dozey:

[Enjun Pullr]

Perhaps that was my fault for the addendum, since the rest of my post was lost in the fog.

I have spent a solid year reading rants from people about what they think is wrong with Indycar, and what they think needs to be changed. Most discussions devolve into irrelevant constructions of history.

The notion of missing Star Power, or even a bigger roster of American drivers, are perspectives I do not believe in as root causes.

No biggie, I could be wrong...so I ask how to modify the single factor of Star Power to improve it. It is one factor of a hundred.

Don't take this personally, but there is no answer buried in what you have written. There is no certainty that people will be attracted to buy tickets or watch races, even if the impossible could be done to create an interesting personna for some of the drivers we have been watching for years.

The competition is what makes the stars. All of the drivers (or other athletes) you can name became legends for what they achieved in battle. When one of them emerges as an interesting personality, or is hyped beyond belief as a corporate spokesman, maybe they transcend into the public eye.

A roster of "stars" in a predictable series is IROC. Conversely, great racing filled with variables is what makes a show with enough entertainment value to keep people watching, and create enough buzz to attract new eyeballs.

That's when the race makes the star: the opposite will not have a lasting effect. Hyped stars who do not produce are a short-lived novelty. That was the point I was trying to make about a recognized Nascar driver coming to Indycar, where his chances for success would be slim and none.

Patrick is an exception: the gender gap, her looks, early opportunities in good equipment, and enough talent to keep it interesting all enabled her novelty to hang for a while. It is a combination of factors that cannot be reproduced as IndyCar stands today.

Sato appears to be an exception in Japan...at least his appearance moved the needle. I think his status was the result of being the sole national representative on the grand stage of Formula One. His exploits made for interesting news, and the benefits of corporate sponsorship made him a widely recognized character. For now.

Thanks to his performance in competition, Kobayashi will soon make Sato a memory. Why? Because he was a young nobody who drove the wheels off his car last year, earning himself a better ride, and is making the most of it.

That's what we need, and the big missing factor is variables in the equipment. Simona got the most out of her car and some attention as a result, but she has no shot at winning. Mike Conway started a similar rise in 2009, although enough people were not instructed by the media to keep an eye on him.

IndyCar needs to concentrate on improving the quality of the racing, and then on promotion of the events. There are a hundred single factors to improve in both cases. Contriving Star Power is very far down the list of priorities.

[Steve-o]

You all make very good, passionate points. It seems to me we have more than one problem. Mind you, I am much more of a NASCAR guy than a IRL guy, and I joined this forum to try and figure this thing out. (My theory; more than one set of eyes on a problem...)

I see it as a star power/rivalry problem. Dario needs a foil someone of equal driving ability, good marketing skills/looks, and attractive enough to sponsors. Danica is marketable off the track due to her good looks, but she hasn't gotten it done on the track. That fact reduces her to a 'flavor of the month', and we already see her star dimming. There needs to be more than one driver of merit off the track that can go out and win every week. Which brings me too...

There's a product problem. There is a perception among the casual fan (as opposed to the hardcore) that as one of you stated, "the red cars always win." There has to be competition throughout the field. It's a major coup if a non Penske/Ganassi car wins, never mind battles for a championship. We see it in NASCAR, with Hendrick/Roush, but not to this level. Penske can win Stewart/Haas, DEI, RCR, Gibbs all offer competitive racing throughout the season. there has to be a way to bring that type of 'even playing field' to IRL.

There's a venue problem. There are many historic tracks here in north america. There should be no reason to run an airports. ISC is a problem, as they control some pretty attractive facilities, like Watkins Glen. That has to be fixed. And, while I am at it, SMI has offered up NHMS as a venue for 2011. While I am very excited to have the IRL back here at Loudon, they did not draw well here 13 years go when the Bahre's owned it. How will they come close to filling up that track? And, I have to admit, Loudon is not a track with a great history.

[Otto-Matic]

Boastful IndyCar fans alienate the newcomers, even though nobody else has a shot in a D&R car either. By season's end, Kyle Bush = Paul Tracy.

The entertainment value is unpredictable competition. That requires variables in equipment, to challenge the skill levels of the drivers and teams. Drivers like Bush are recognized for their success in competition, and perhaps they become stars.

It doesn't work the other way around, not for long. I think Sammy would agree, and Danica will continue to learn.

you hit the nail on the head. Star power is only a precieved reason why Indycar is not "as big as NASCAR". If the racing sucks, who cares? do you want to be a sport where the on track action is exciting and thrilling to watch? or do you want to be all about the "entertainment", such as F1 is, where the racing is second to the overall show? because those are two very different things.

[Enjun Pullr]

Cheers mate. To me, stars are Mears, Foyt, Rutherford, Mario Andretti, Bobby and Al Sr. and Junior, E. Fittipaldi, Zanardi and a few others not in my brain at the moment.

They got they way by hammering at each other on the racetrack, most often in cars that demonstrated a variety in performance and a challenge to their abilities.

Always with a handful of guys who could beat them on any given day.

Hammering me with promos about their wives or hobbies wouldn't have had quite the same effect.

[Steve-o]

Cheers mate. To me, stars are Mears, Foyt, Rutherford, Mario Andretti, Bobby and Al Sr. and Junior, E. Fittipaldi, Zanardi and a few others not in my brain at the moment.

They got they way by hammering at each other on the racetrack, most often in cars that demonstrated a variety in performance and a challenge to their abilities.

Always with a handful of guys who could beat them on any given day.

Hammering me with promos about their wives or hobbies wouldn't have had quite the same effect.

I couldn't agree more. They have to become stars on the track first!! I could care less about who's WAG is hottest, what she wears, or what she says. I don't spend my money to see the "action" on pitroad. For instance, I am sure Ashley's a lovely lady, and she's easy on the eyes, but I don't watch the race to see her. I could care less what her 'post race analysis' is. Give me some breakdown from the owner or crew chief. I am quite sure I am not in the minority on that.

[Jag_Warrior]

you hit the nail on the head. Star power is only a precieved reason why Indycar is not "as big as NASCAR". If the racing sucks, who cares? do you want to be a sport where the on track action is exciting and thrilling to watch? or do you want to be all about the "entertainment", such as F1 is, where the racing is second to the overall show? because those are two very different things.

I'm not really talking about being or becoming as big as NASCAR or Formula One though. That ship sailed about 15 years ago and it's not returning to port anytime soon, if ever. I'm talking about not losing $20 million a year (or whatever) because the series can't attract enough viewers and sponsors to be able to survive, independent of IMS subsidies. Right now this series (many/most of the teams) only answers the bell at the beginning of the season because of those subsidies and the checks brought by ride-buyers.

And one has to remember that whether or not the racing is "good" or "bad" is a purely subjective measure, generally determined by each individual viewer from race to race... or maybe minute to minute/hour to hour. And also, we shouldn't get caught up in an either/or trap, where the series has to choose to either market itself as "purely entertainment" or "purely racing". If given a choice, I'd take a day off from work just to watch F1 qualifying at Montreal before I'd use a free weekend to attend an IRL race. Given my history, maybe some would attribute that to my prior negative feelings about the IRL. But that's not it. F1 has pretty much everything that I'm looking for in an open wheel formula car series right now and the IRL has very little of it. Ask someone else and you may get a different answer or feeling. But in F1 I can see a variety of chassis, engines and drivers who I have followed for many years, and for whom I have great respect. And now, with Kamui Kobayashi (bad haircut and all) on the track, I know there's a guy out there that will go for it, no matter who he's dicing with. Unlike some of the hack ride buyers in the IRL right now (who will also try banzai moves), Kamui tends to get it right more often than not. He's an explosive mixture of excitement and lightning in a bottle. Someone on the F1 forum compared him to a younger Juan Pablo Montoya. I had to agree. Plus, F1 races do tend to have a "buzz" about them, whether it's partly from past racing stars in attendance or entertainment types who are attracted to the sexy cars or just the ultra professional way that F1 conducts itself in presentation form. CART used to have that mystical "buzz" too. The Indy 500 used to have that mystical buzz. Then it went away... or it was chased away due to lack of thought and care. That's part of what Steve Horne was talking about when he went to the last CCWS race at Cleveland, and he said it reminded him of a GP2 race, rather than the old CART races he used to attend and participate in.

What I am suggesting above is that they work to get back to a situation where a wide(r) variety of fans can find some factor (or set of factors) that attracts them to watching or attending races. As I've said many times in many threads, there is no (single) magic bullet that is going to cure the current ills of this series. Once the IRL gets off its haunches and determines who the current fans are and who the prospective fans are (and what they want/need/expect), they can then begin a plan to develop those deliverables... those metrics and "drivers" that will/should lead to increased viewership and attendance = greater sponsorships (as the sponsor exposure value will thereby be increased).

So all I'm saying is they now have a champion who is marketable; the ingredients are there. I fully agree with the points made by you and Enjun Pullr that having a whole gaggle of A-list Hollywood people in attendance isn't going to fix things (by itself). Neither is having a whole gaggle of (unknown) American drivers or a "cool" car with a whistling turbo engine. Again, there's an increasingly long laundry list of things to be addressed. But you have to work with what you have. And IMO, if they're unable to market their current champion, or any of the other drivers (besides a bikini model who MIGHT get lucky and trip over a win on some foot-to-the-floor oval once every decade), that will be confirmation to me that this thing is going nowhere fast.

The IRL has been living by a "build it and they will come" philosophy for the past decade +. So far, that's been a disaster. Why not go back to what used to work and mix that with what is working for other (successful) series?

[Enjun Pullr]

It will only go somewhere fast with regulations changed to place a greater emphasis on car control, and the arrival of more diversity in the equipment.

That enables better competition, and the stars emerge as a result: driver recognition is the effect of popular racing, not the cause of it.

Jag's quote:

"Once the IRL gets off its haunches and determines who the current fans are and who the prospective fans are (and what they want/need/expect), they can then begin a plan to develop those deliverables... those metrics and "drivers" that will/should lead to increased viewership and attendance = greater sponsorships (as the sponsor exposure value will thereby be increased)."

I gotta tell you Jag, that sounds like something straight out of the mouth of departed Vice President in charge of Marketing John Lewis. Not sure of the reason for his departure, but it's pretty clear to see how effective that sort of market analysis salad proved to be for the past six years.

Maybe he retired to pick low hanging fruit.

[Jag_Warrior]

It will only go somewhere fast with regulations changed to place a greater emphasis on car control, and the arrival of more diversity in the equipment.

And that's fine. Sounds like a change that I would welcome. But who will pay for the new chassis and engines that result from these regulations? Not the series... the teams, right? And unless they can pay for the cars, I'd say they'll still have as hard a time as they do now attracting (and paying) drivers who are capable of using that new equipment to its fullest. Give me Lewis Hamilton, Kimi Raikkonen and Juan Pablo Montoya for one season and my new team could put on a spectacle that the fans of North American open wheel formula car racing haven't seen in years. Let me put Kamui Kobayashi in a 4th car and the fans better take heart pills before the race. And we could amaze the fans with the same Dallara-Hondas that are out there right now. But take any slick, sexy chassis with a 1000 hp balls-to-the-wall engine and a quick shifting gearbox... if it's still going to be driven by The Danica, Takuma Sato, Rufie Matos and the other members of the Ride-buyer X Clown Squad, I don't quite understand how that (again, by itself) is going to improve much. :confused: But sure, I'm all for having a new car(s), new engines and new whatever. But (there's always a "but", eh?), what then??? Where do we go from there?

So if we're still going to require (non-post dated) checks before a driver can get a seat fitting, where are the new drivers going to come from to go with all the other new stuff? The same pool of racing washouts that are writing checks now... that nobody cares about and few can name? And it follows, how does that relate to the new fans that we want/need? But like I said, I'm for getting all that new stuff... especially the new fans. As long as I don't get a bill in the mail, I'll sign off on anything new that you can think of.



That enables better competition, and the stars emerge as a result: driver recognition is the effect of popular racing, not the cause of it.

But you understand that "better" is just another subjective term that means different things to different people. I'm not opposed to what you're saying. And I'm not interested in a chicken or the egg debate. But again, why would a company write a fat check to cover the cost of sponsoring a car if the series has never shown any ability to market itself? Why would they do that? My former company pumped millions into CART and Indy 500 efforts. And although there was a love for this sport at the very top, we didn't just do it for love! We also made a few ducats through B2B relationships and associations. Now, that company and any of the companies we were associated with, if they are in racing sponsorships at all, are exclusively in NASCAR. Why? Same reason Willie Sutton robbed banks: that's where the money is!



Jag's quote:

"Once the IRL gets off its haunches and determines who the current fans are and who the prospective fans are (and what they want/need/expect), they can then begin a plan to develop those deliverables... those metrics and "drivers" that will/should lead to increased viewership and attendance = greater sponsorships (as the sponsor exposure value will thereby be increased)."

I gotta tell you Jag, that sounds like something straight out of the mouth of departed Vice President in charge of Marketing John Lewis. Not sure of the reason for his departure, but it's pretty clear to see how effective that sort of market analysis salad proved to be for the past six years.

Maybe he retired to pick low hanging fruit.

Maybe I shared a classroom with him at some point. :confused: To be honest, I don't know anything about that gentleman. But if his message to the IMS powers-that-be was that they must know their customers and what they must have vs. what they desire to have vs. what they don't care about one way or another... then clearly they made an error in letting him leave the building - especially since they've been sliding straight downhill in those six years that you spoke of. Are those events related? Again, I dunno. I just rattled off a few basic, fundamental principles that any business would/should know to follow.

However you want to put it, whatever words or terminology you want to use, the basics of business don't change whether you're selling tickets to a race or rotor blades for helicopters. The product may be different, but you HAVE to meet customer demands and expectations. It's just that in racing, you rely on ticket buyers as well as sponsors.

[Enjun Pullr]

Just blew up my post, and I am not happy about it. You could have asked me for answers to capital gains tax rate changes and teenage bulemia in the same post though. Might as well touch all the bases.

[Jag_Warrior]

Just blew up my post, and I am not happy about it. You could have asked me for answers to capital gains tax rate changes and teenage bulemia in the same post though. Might as well touch all the bases.

No reason to be unhappy about that. To know me is to love me. Just ask anybody. Well, none of my ex-girlfriends or some of the people that got laid off when their company took my advice to downsize the labor force. And that old lady who used to live across the street from me. Definitely don't ask her - I think she's dead anyway though. But most anybody else... they'll tell ya what a sweetheart I am! As for my posting style, in Ancient Greek my name means "he who is long-winded and cures insomnia".

Just take it that I likely want the same end result for this series that you do. There may be some things that attract me to racing that don't attract you, and vice versa. But before I die or stop caring (either one of which is subject to happen with no prior notice at any time), I'd like to go to at least one more NA open wheel formula car race where there are loads of happy, smiling people, cars that make my heart beat faster and that hard to describe buzz in the air that I remember from years ago. However we get there is cool with me. I'm under no illusion that any suggestion that I make here or anything that I say makes any difference at all.

We're all just "swinging Richards" who come here to shoot the bull, Monday morning quarterback and bench race. It's all good, Enjun Pullr. :beer:

[Enjun Pullr]

Thank you for the wisdom, it all serves to justify some brevity. Not easy for me either.

"Who will pay": Immediate improvements would not be expensive.

1) Reduce downforce generated by tunnels, expand selective range of wing angles and wickers. The intent is to require deceleration for high speed cornering, and promote variation in selective drag levels to create speed differential. Car control and aero grip compromises required.

2) Drop base horsepower to 600 to permit overtake assist range of 35 HP. Increase frequency of applications to 25% of race laps. Ex: 20 sec. boost, 10 sec. recharge, 50 applications at a 1.5 mi. track. The intent is to provide speed differential to break up pack racing, enable a charge from the back if desired, and increase a variable in fuel consumption rates.

3) Expand grip level variation between tire compounds for road courses. This was a good idea, even before it was proven at Infineon. The intent is to increase cornering speed differential and alter pit sequences.

4) Eliminate chassis sensors for data acquisition. This reduces the benefits off-track testing R&D, decreases staffing and team budgets. Data collection should consist of tire temperatures and driver feedback, not angular rate sensor and gyro telemetry.

This ends track data maps for precise shaker rig simulation, and driver coaching by monitoring steering wheel and brake pedal position data. Set up the car, gear the car, drive the car. Then we'll talk some more.

That's it for the cheap tricks, the supply of one alternate engine is required to change the balance further. Combining that addition to existing equipment and the single proposed new chassis and engine could create a maximum of five alternate equipment packages in 2012.

"We could amaze the fans": not with top shelf F1 drivers. An unknown, taking calculated risks in a competitive car, can do the same for a lot less. He just can't do it against identically prepared cars unless he has a small but insurmountable performance advantage. Maybe De Silvestro is every bit as talented as Power, and could compete if her engineers have a fighting chance to find their own advantage.

"determines who are current fans": That's easy to count, and the few left aren't leaving. Market analysis is a wasted effort: the demographic is 5 to 95, male and female, within 100 miles of a scheduled event and with enough money to buy a cheap ticket.

You are a marketer, right? What's the average response rate to bulk mail coupons or cold telemarketing calls, 2%? Maybe 1%?

That adds up when a variety of cost-effective promotions are directed at a local market, with incentives designed for a variety of interest groups. This is not a suggestion to massively increase advertising expenditures, but to reallocate existing resources.

Example: $250,000 for a spread in Vanity Fair instead buys 250,000 promotional DVD's to distribute on the retail packaging of a participating sponsor. "Hey kids, let's watch this. And look, there's a coupon...."

The requirement is to plant a seed for new audiences and insure that improved competition keeps their interest.The "low-hanging fruit" won't come back to watch a bad race, even if it's free.

National campaigns to attract local customers is backwards thinking. Demonstrate to potential sponsors, race track promoters and TV viewers that you can fill the stands at one event, rinse and repeat. Get them to the show, give them a better one, establish local audiences who watch subsequent broadcasts.

" 'better' is just a subjective term": This is not as ambiguous a concept as you think. When people are leaving before the end of a processional race at Richmond, and the winning driver apologizes to them afterward, that is a "bad" race.

When narrow road courses with no safe passing zones result in an absence of lead changes on track, that is a race which needs to be made "better". Iowa was a "good" race, Sao Paulo was a "better" race.

That's it for now, the naked lightbulb hanging in my basement just went out again. Some demographic, huh?

[Otto-Matic]

Did someone say teenage bulemia !!! ;)

Jag/Enjun, I must say it's been very compelling reading your posts back and forth. i'd love to watch a round table discussion with you two, Starter, EagleEye and a couple others. You guys make great points and I think just reading this thread has made me to open up my mind and really think about the current state of the series, the regs, and the future. Cheers to both of you!

as for the question of "Who will Pay?" it's not uncommon for a particular series to help fund some of the new equipment costs of the team. If (and a very big "if") the Sisters were willing to open the checkbook even a little, an investment of maybe 10-15%, or 15-20% of the new engine/chassis costs to each team would go a long way to helping them. it's an annuity you would make in your own series towards building it's future. this happens in other business' all the time, albiet different circumstances.
also, what about what Grand-Am did, working with a bank like a SunTrust who did loans at very low interest rates for teams to afford the new packages. I dont know much about this but i recall reading a Marshall Pruett article saying this was very positive in the GA paddock.
of course this is all hypothetical...

[Enjun Pullr]

Thanks and dittoes for your contributions. Where you are now is where I started about 18 months ago. Getting feedback/ arguments/ education from others all serves to revise and refine talking points. If it's a waste of time, that's my fault.

I am keen on hearing from EE as well, my impression is that he and Hoop have more facts to refine theories.

Not a teenager, but I puke quite often over what I read. That doesn't include a lot of history, so I think the funding suggestions you raise are slippery slopes that have been tested before. Others could provide more facts than me.

Bernard has stated that the priority is generating revenues, not initiating drastic cost controls. That's the ticket. Improving product and promotion sells it.

[garyshell]

I think the key here is the reduction of downforce that Enjun has called for and some of have been saving for years. On ovals we need to see a large differential between speeds on the straights and speeds on the turns. I want to see braking in every corner. No more flat out all the way round crap. Then on road courses a reduction of downforce to the point that there is a significant amount of VISIBLE oversteer on virtually every corner.

Of course this also dictates a difference in tire design. But these are CHEAP things that can be done to the existing chassis.

As has been said here in this thread and before, exciting racing (defined by me as seeing the drivers actually drive the cars, aka braking on ovals and oversteer on road courses) creates stars. Stars create interest and Bob's your uncle.

Gary

[Enjun Pullr]

Sad to say Gary, but it is a debate we will lose. The choice has been made to increase ground effect downforce with bigger tunnels on the new chassis. The intent is to reduce downforce required from front wings to lessen the effect of turbulence on the trailing car.

I assume this means the addition of spec tunnel blockers or other modifiers to reduce undertray downforce for oval tracks. If this detail of the 2012 formula has been publicly discussed yet, it hasn't hit the radar.

Maybe brighter minds will limit downforce to the point that full throttle lapping is not the preferred style. Dunno.

Ashmore was a big proponent of reducing downforce a few years ago, and reversed his position. Mario used to complain about the lack of challenge to the drivers. But there doesn't seem to be much support for "unsticking" the cars. The Formula 1 philosophy is the same, more ground effects to maintain consistant downforce.

The Big Question is, what would Uncle Bob do?

[Enjun Pullr]

'Scuse me, Anthony?

I never did hear back on all the Miami promotions you were talking about. Bernard said in an interview tonight that only one or two of the drivers who are Miami residents heard any advertisements at all. And said the cab drivers knew nada.

He also said "the crowd was pathetic at Homestead". So I'd like to know if you are reporting accurately, or just throwing bombs. If there was not a significant level of promotion for the race, I blame the Series and the title sponsor. Bernard blames ISC. What's the real story?