Hamilton / Webber incident (Singapore 2010)

[Dave B]

What do we think? The stewards looked at it and decided on no further action - rightly in my view.

Martin Whitmarsh is on the BBC forum defending Hamilton, and EJ is saying that he must be crazy!

For me, Lewis was not far enough ahead to turn in, although I do believe that it was a simple racing incident as he couldn't see Mark, but many seem to be blaming the Australian.

Thoughts?

[maximilian]

It's the kind of thing that can happen when fighting for a championship. Neither driver was to blame IMO. For once a good decision by the stewards. Go Danny!

[ShiftingGears]

Racing incident, and I was satisfied by the stewards decisions taken this weekend.

[Koz]

Racing incident.

[N4D13]

Both drivers are to blame, although Hamilton got the worst result. In my view, the stewards chose wisely when they decided not to punish Webbo.

[gloomyDAY]

Um....this was a race, right? There wasn't an "incident" just a pass attempt.

Seriously, this is what I dislike about this forum. Many here whine about not having enough action on the track, then when we see some spectacular racing and passing it turns into a 15 page debate about who's at fault for having any contact. Accept the fact that Hamilton tried, and failed yet again, to make a move on an opponent and was subsequently hit.

[Roamy]

well it is as it is but paybacks are a bitch and unfortunately I think webber will get one.

[Dave B]

Um....this was a race, right? There wasn't an "incident" just a pass attempt.

Seriously, this is what I dislike about this forum. Many here whine about not having enough action on the track, then when we see some spectacular racing and passing it turns into a 15 page debate about who's at fault for having any contact. Accept the fact that Hamilton tried, and failed yet again, to make a move on an opponent and was subsequently hit.

Who's whining? I told you that I didn't see anything wrong with the move and that I agreed it was a racing incident - I was merely surprised that some people on the BBC forum were slaughtering Webber and wanted to make sure I wasn't tripping.

[steveaki13]

It was a good decision by the stewards.

Nice to see them take a common sense decision.

Hamilton was ahead but Webber was a long way up the inside, so in the end just an attempted pass that didn't work.

[keysersoze]

I agree, racing incident but, um, er, WHO was the driver in front? And, once that has been determined, who shoulders most of the responsibility to avoid contact?

[Mia 01]

I wonder what MW thinks of this one, another brain fade and both the WDC and WCC down the toilet.

Continiou like this, course he knows no other way.

[steveaki13]

Martin Whitmarsh saying on the beeb, that Hamilton was clearly ahead no arguements.

No quite sure thats true Martin????

[Wasted Talent]

I agree, racing incident but, um, er, WHO was the driver in front? And, once that has been determined, who shoulders most of the responsibility to avoid contact?

Looked like Hamilton in front to me, probably just bad luck for him but I would have been upset in his place.......Webber lucky his car wasn't damaged, as he could have avoided contact taking place

WT

[F1boat]

Racing accident IMO. The Virgin driver who blocked Webber is the main villain IMO - he made the situation possible.

[52Paddy]

Webber lucky his car wasn't damaged, as he could have avoided contact taking place

WT

I don't think so. Lewis did turn in on Mark at a point when Mark couldn't really have slowed the car down to avoid an accident. Fact is, Mark was in Lewis' blindspot. Lewis turned in when he really should have kept a wide line. He probably would have had an equal, if not better, run off the corner that way. But he didn't so an incident occurred where one driver is at as much fault as the other.

[52Paddy]

Racing accident IMO. The Virgin driver who blocked Webber is the main villain IMO - he made the situation possible.

I'd have to watch the clip again but, from what I recall, the Virgin driver kept well to the left side of the track on the straight.

And, for the record, I'm very pleased that the stewards took no further action :)

[Easy Drifter]

Racing incident.
Usually it would have been Webber's car that would have been damaged and Hamilton's unscathed.

[jeffmr2]

well it is as it is but paybacks are a bitch and unfortunately I think webber will get one.

We can but hope.

[Triumph]

Just an unfortunate racing incident.

I'm disappointed that my favourite driver ended up having his championship almost ruined, but that's motor racing, as they say.

I would have preferred it if it was someone other than Mark Webber who was involved because I did say the other day that I wouldn't be too disappointed to see him win the championship, considering all that he has been through in the last couple of years. I'm a bit annoyed with him at the moment!

Having said that, out of all the non-British championship contenders I still wouldn't be disappointed to see Mark win the championship. He's a nice bloke. Also he probably won't get such a good chance again in his career, so this is probably his best chance.

Lewis, Jenson and Fernando have their place in the history books already and Sebastian has many more years to get there (which he almost certainly will). I don't dislike Fernando, but I'd rather see someone else win, rather than him winning a third one.

:-)

[jens]

Not merely the matter of this race, but generally Hamilton's collapse of the season has been astonishing, as he looked like the main title favourite not long ago. But from the last four races he has had three retirements and even in that fourth one he almost retired in the gravel trap.

It's not always easy to find the balance between attacking and playing it safe especially in such a delicate championship situation, but by having so many drivers fighting for the WDC, it probably triggers a bit of a more aggressive approach, because surely you don't want to lose ground and even less so to finish 5th behind all of your rivals.

Webber has actually started racing quite maturely in recent races in battles for positions (also passed some midfielders cleanly today), but in the battle against Hamilton probably forgot a bit of that approach and it almost cost his race as well. A racing incident, but... Kubica-Sutil managed to clarify a similar situation at the end of the race just fine.

[Triumph]

Lewis got off to quite a slow start this season. He seemed to not have his act together for quite a while, which I presumed was due to the situation with his dad.

Things don't look good for him at the moment, but Kimi's late surge in 2007 was as unexpected for me as Lewis' success would be this year.

[Dave B]

As an aside, Adam Cooper's blog has some pictures of Webber's wheel.
http://adamcooperf1.com/2010/09/26/miracle-for-webber-as-tyre-holds-together/

He was very lucky to finish the race, another safety car or pitstop would almost certainly have seen the tyre pressure drop with temperature and come away from the rim as it eventually did in parc fermé.

[donKey jote]

wow lucky indeed :eek:

[steveaki13]

That was quite amazing that Webber finished with that.

[Jag_Warrior]

What do we think? The stewards looked at it and decided on no further action - rightly in my view.

Martin Whitmarsh is on the BBC forum defending Hamilton, and EJ is saying that he must be crazy!

For me, Lewis was not far enough ahead to turn in, although I do believe that it was a simple racing incident as he couldn't see Mark, but many seem to be blaming the Australian.

Thoughts?

Unlike Monza, I think that Lewis had to make that move when he did. This one wasn't low percentage, while I believe Monza was. And though it didn't work out (and I'm pulling for Hamilton), I can't take issue with the outcome... or the stewards' decision. It was "just one of them racin' deals."

[Saint Devote]

Hamilton learnt once again what it requires to play with the tough wily drivers.

Both Alonso and Webber did not have the comfortable and luxurious entry to motor racing that dear Lewis has had.

Racing incident? Like what Alonso did at Monza and today Webber at Marina Bay? No. Webber knew exactly what he was doing - but he is a real professional and just as good casino dealers have their tricks, so have experienced f1 drivers.

The problem with Hamilton is that he has not yet leared how to drive defensively - he needs to learn from his teammate Jenson Button.

Hamilton has a lot to learn and clearly is unable to do what it takes when he does not have the dominant car.

Should Webber have been penalized? Yes .... and no. His opportunism was brilliant and his tactics would have made Schumi smile.

This is how championships are won and while I favored Alonso to win before the 2010 season began, Webber is every bit as worthy.

[CNR]

lewis was ahead of mark
but lewis failed to leave racing room

in v8 supercars a driver can be given a penalty for not leaving racing room

[Valve Bounce]

I missed the whole lot - was queueing for the Grand Final replay and spent the night on the footpath outside Ticketek. :(
Rang my wife at one stage and she told me Mark was running 8th.
Walked around the corner later and saw the TV in the Golden Nugget with Alonso in the meddie, Vettel to his right and Mark to his left for teh after race interview. Couldn't hear anything there but worked it out that Mark came third. Great news!!
Just got home and will watch the recorded race.

[Jag_Warrior]

...

Just HAD to say that I love your new sig line. :D

[Valve Bounce]

Just HAD to say that I love your new sig line. :D

Why, thank you. Very much appreciated! :up:

[Ari]

Racing incident.

BUT if any driver were to blame, I would say Webber.

Lewis took a chance on the outside and knew the risks of what could happen if the guy in the inside did not give up the position. Lewis took that risk.

In my opinion though, I'm not convinced Webber was far enough up the inside to warrant actually having a go. I thought the only time he really was inside of Hamilton is when he was making contact.

I was expecting a drive-through so was pretty surprised not to see one. We'll take a bit of luck when we get it for all the times you don't!

Imo more Webbers fault, felt he was fortunate not only to not be penalised by the stewards but also that his machinery held up.

[AJP]

This was neither Hamilton's failure to overtake, nor Webber's failure to defend....

It was a racing incident and that's it. A real shame that Hamilton couldn't race on as it would have been great to watch the two battle it out for the podium. On the flip side of this, Very, very lucky for Webber to continue, as I was sure that would have broken his front right suspension.

This is the stuff that makes your heart stop while watching motor racing, MORE PLEASE...!!!

[bluegem280]

It was Alonso who can drive cool with smooth maneuver at the start and managed to keep his position at the front for the whole race amid strong pressure from Vettel behind him. Redbull cars are in correct form this weekend, any cars try to overtake them will gain response that they can give strong defend.

Hamilton already took the outside line but Webber was already on the way to retake the position. Yeah it was race incident and more about lucky and unlucky, Webber was lucky he can continue the race and keep the position until finish, there is not enough reason to take further action towards the incident, but it was just great luckiness Mark wasn't penalized..

[Saint Devote]

Guaranteed if it was Vettel that did what Lewis has done in the past two races there would be all manner of screaming and shouting - but of course its Hamilton.

Funny how he is always mixed up in incidents where REAL racing is concerned.

I wonder why Webber was smiling like that as he spoke in such generous terms about the incident. ROFLAMO!!!!

Well done Markus!!!! You know how to take them out when neccessary :-]

[Saint Devote]

Martin Whitmarsh saying on the beeb, that Hamilton was clearly ahead no arguements.

No quite sure thats true Martin????

Whitmarsh is correct - racing incident? It was a SCHUMI incident!

:D Martin has been around the block a few times - and so has Markus :vader:

Ah well :s mokin:

[Valve Bounce]

The way I see it, and I replayed it around 20 times including many in slo-mo, Lewis was very optimistic going round the outside of mark at that corner. The only way he could have gotten past was is Mark braked and conceded the corner. Mark was on the inside racing line, he had teh corner, Lewis was not fully past when he turned in and went for a piece of road where there was another car. He took a gamble and paid the price.

Hamilton says he thought he had left Mark Webber enough room prior to their clash in the Singapore GP, and believed that he had safely cleared the Red Bull.
“I think it’s a racing incident, as far as I know. I don’t really know what happened, I need to look on the replay.”


The Stewards would have reviewed the incident with numerous replays a lot better than mine; that they saw no reason to take any action speaks for itself.

[airshifter]

The way I see it, and I replayed it around 20 times including many in slo-mo, Lewis was very optimistic going round the outside of mark at that corner. The only way he could have gotten past was is Mark braked and conceded the corner. Mark was on the inside racing line, he had teh corner, Lewis was not fully past when he turned in and went for a piece of road where there was another car. He took a gamble and paid the price.



I can agree with the above, but on the flip side Mark just saw it coming and I don't think Lewis did. Both expected the other to brake first, and neither flinched. IMHO a good call by the stewards for ruling it a racing incident.

[Ari]

I can agree with the above, but on the flip side Mark just saw it coming and I don't think Lewis did. Both expected the other to brake first, and neither flinched. IMHO a good call by the stewards for ruling it a racing incident.

Agree that it was good that the stewards stepped out of it.

Two racers going for a gap in the road. The day they stop doing that and start flinching is the day it's not worth watching the GP.

[Valve Bounce]

Agree that it was good that the stewards stepped out of it.

Two racers going for a gap in the road. The day they stop doing that and start flinching is the day it's not worth watching the GP.

Totally in agreement.

By the way, heard it is Hird!!

[Ari]

Totally in agreement.

By the way, heard it is Hird!!

Have heard the same thing! Not sure I like it though. I think I'd prefer Choco got it and Hird was assistant for a couple years first... like a 5 year deal with the first couple as assistant.

Did you get tickets to the GF in the end?

[ArrowsFA1]

Racing incident and sensible decision by the stewards.

The one issue that comes up again in this kind of incident is the fact that the drivers simply cannot see anything other than directly ahead because of the high cockpit sides. Lewis did give Mark some room (not quite enough as it turned out) but given that he couldn't see where the Red Bull was contact was perhaps inevitable.

That said, we want drivers to race and overtake and sometimes this kind of thing happens.

[Valve Bounce]

Have heard the same thing! Not sure I like it though. I think I'd prefer Choco got it and Hird was assistant for a couple years first... like a 5 year deal with the first couple as assistant.

Did you get tickets to the GF in the end?

Second in line at Ticketek, and they have three computer outlets. Hoping for N22.

[Big Ben]

Um....this was a race, right? There wasn't an "incident" just a pass attempt.

Seriously, this is what I dislike about this forum. Many here whine about not having enough action on the track, then when we see some spectacular racing and passing it turns into a 15 page debate about who's at fault for having any contact. Accept the fact that Hamilton tried, and failed yet again, to make a move on an opponent and was subsequently hit.

hold your horses tough guy. did you even read the previous posts? Almost everyone agrees it was a racing incident and that stewards were right not to interfere... so what is this about?

[SGWilko]

Racing incident - clear as day (or night, in this case!!!)

Look at the facts, and understand WHY Lewis went for the move;

I don't think anyone is in any doubt that, both Ferrari AND Red Bull were the fastest cars around Singapore. In order to stay in the fight, due to the DNF at Monza, Lewis needed to finish ahead of Mark.

He saw his chance at the SC restart, had the run, and the result is what we saw in the race.

Mark had to keep his foot in to maintain his championship lead, Lewis had to get past. Good hard racing.

5h!t happens. No-one worth listening to is blaming either driver. That says it all for me.

[52Paddy]

The way I see it, and I replayed it around 20 times including many in slo-mo, Lewis was very optimistic going round the outside of mark at that corner. The only way he could have gotten past was is Mark braked and conceded the corner. Mark was on the inside racing line, he had teh corner, Lewis was not fully past when he turned in and went for a piece of road where there was another car. He took a gamble and paid the price.

On the ball. That's the way I read the accident :up:

[I am evil Homer]

The way some people talk you'd think they wouldn't want overtaking. I'm glad Lewis makes these types of moves - more often than not they've worked for him.

I'm glad he's a 100% racer...we need more Hamilton's and less Trulli style drivers in F1 IMO.

[markabilly]

Racing incident and sensible decision by the stewards.

The one issue that comes up again in this kind of incident is the fact that the drivers simply cannot see anything other than directly ahead because of the high cockpit sides. Lewis did give Mark some room (not quite enough as it turned out) but given that he couldn't see where the Red Bull was contact was perhaps inevitable.

That said, we want drivers to race and overtake and sometimes this kind of thing happens.
and I am not so sure they can see that well towards the front either---esp. in the red bull and mercedes cars.

I was watching the shots taken as they went through the corners that were level with the drivers faces, and those body wings on top of the red bull where the front suspension is attached, clearly block their veiw of the racing surface and anything that is level with their eyes.

The only way they can see anything lower, is the gap between the wing on the body and the front wheel. And that ain't much of a view.

we see those shots from above the drivers head, and one sees clearly everything, so from that point of view, the accident appears somewhat avoidable---- but from the position of the drivers eyes, well I think anyone who wants a clear view of the road, would flip out in the these cars......

the macs do not seem to have these wings, so mayboe the drivers see better in front??????

[jens]

I'm glad he's a 100% racer...we need more Hamilton's and less Trulli style drivers in F1 IMO.

Trulli-style? Remember the banzai-move he did at Monaco? :p :

I'd say the opposite of Hamilton is Button - a calculating racer, who puts in only clean passes.

[Wasted Talent]

Just an unfortunate racing incident.

I'm disappointed that my favourite driver ended up having his championship almost ruined, but that's motor racing, as they say.

I would have preferred it if it was someone other than Mark Webber who was involved because I did say the other day that I wouldn't be too disappointed to see him win the championship, considering all that he has been through in the last couple of years. I'm a bit annoyed with him at the moment!

Having said that, out of all the non-British championship contenders I still wouldn't be disappointed to see Mark win the championship. He's a nice bloke. Also he probably won't get such a good chance again in his career, so this is probably his best chance.

Lewis, Jenson and Fernando have their place in the history books already and Sebastian has many more years to get there (which he almost certainly will). I don't dislike Fernando, but I'd rather see someone else win, rather than him winning a third one.

:-)

Agree with most of this, Hamilton was unlucky & Webber was lucky.

Button was in exactly the same position as Webber into the first corner on lap one but used his head and let Lewis go, if Webber hadn't been lucky he would have been cursing his own mistake not Hamilton's overtake -after all it was him that had screwed up his exit from the previous corner that let the McLaren past him down the straight.

Bit I don't agree with is Alonso - anyone but him for the Championship, please!!! Big cry-baby who needs team orders or the toys come out of the pram big style

WT

[Robinho]

i do think it is spetacularly harsh to blame Hamilton for this one, he was partially ahead on the straight and Webber tried to repass going into the corner and failed, hitting Hamilton. I do agree it was probably a racing incident, but on balance I feel it was Webbers mistake (assuming he didn't hit him on purpose) and that Hamilton was correct in taking the corner from Mark.

Monza all Hamiltons fault, this time not so, albeit probably rightly adjudged raxcing incident, even if my instinct at the time was that Webber would have a. broken his car and b. received a drive through, so it seems he was pretty lucky

[driveace]

In my view Hamilton was unlucky today and Webber very lucky.
Thought Hamilton was clearly in front and Webber could have avoided the contact,with a small amount of effort,but hamilton did say that he thought Webber was trying to preserve his brakes and tyres,so as soon as the Safety pulled in he was going to have a go.
Again anybody BUT Alonso for the title please!

[go mads]

what is saint devotes problem with hamilton. he has overtaken more cars than anyone this season and has just been very unlucky in last 2 races.this is racing,do we watch it for overtaking or just to see a proccession such as button not being able to challenge webber on old tyres of which one was close to exploding.i know what i would sooner watch.

[Valve Bounce]

what is saint devotes problem with hamilton. he has overtaken more cars than anyone this season and has just been very unlucky in last 2 races.this is racing,do we watch it for overtaking or just to see a proccession such as button not being able to challenge webber on old tyres of which one was close to exploding.i know what i would sooner watch.

Do you really, really need to ask? :rolleyes:

[Zico]

Good call by the stewards, it can be nothing more than a racing incident.

I missed Marks comments on the incident. What did he have to say?

[Valve Bounce]

Good call by the stewards, it can be nothing more than a racing incident.

I missed Marks comments on the incident. What did he have to say?

Nothing much, really! but you can catch them at autosport.

[jparker]

I watched the accident view times, Webber was actually aiming for the hit. Maybe OK with the rules, but don't like this kind of attitude on the track.
I don't want to see this guy as champion anymore.

[maxter]

Are you kidding? He was clearly trying to take the corner. Hamilton turned in too tight too late, Webber was a little too aggressive, racing incident and partly both of them to blame just as most people here agree on.
What in the world makes you say Webber aimed for the hit? Ridiculous.

[rohanweb]

Webber is an idiot driver, he doesnt like anyone over taking him no matter he is dead slow or take wrong lines trying to deal with slower cars... while Lewis did the correct thing seeing an oppurtunity to get past and Webber deliberately run in to him, He knew by hitting Lewis on the sidepots or tyres lewis (his main title contender) will be done,the maximum he will lose his front wing and can still come back to finish the race on points... crafty little p*rk.

i am well annoyed at the whole redbull team , they have caused many accidents this year running in to other drivers and take them away.

people blaming Lewis must remember that Lewis Hamilton is a racer unlike the others and without overtaking attempts racing is like a crown without jewels, its damn rare and boring procession of following one by one sport it has become Lewis hamilton like very few who provies thatextra bit, so sometimes things do go wrong !

mark webber will never and ever be a F1 champion=> the guy isnt fit for it.

[rohanweb]

Are you kidding? He was clearly trying to take the corner. Hamilton turned in too tight too late, Webber was a little too aggressive, racing incident and partly both of them to blame just as most people here agree on.
What in the world makes you say Webber aimed for the hit? Ridiculous.

yes mate. next time Lewis Hamilton must make sure Mark webber takes a permenant flight and claim I held my line you turned wrong way ! that is the fitting tribute to webber & redbull team

[F1boat]

Webber is an idiot driver, he doesnt like anyone over taking him no matter he is dead slow or take wrong lines trying to deal with slower cars... while Lewis did the correct thing seeing an oppurtunity to get past and Webber deliberately run in to him, He knew by hitting Lewis on the sidepots or tyres lewis (his main title contender) will be done,the maximum he will lose his front wing and can still come back to finish the race on points... crafty little p*rk.

i am well annoyed at the whole redbull team , they have caused many accidents this year running in to other drivers and take them away.

people blaming Lewis must remember that Lewis Hamilton is a racer unlike the others and without overtaking attempts racing is like a crown without jewels, its damn rare and boring procession of following one by one sport it has become Lewis hamilton like very few who provies thatextra bit, so sometimes things do go wrong !

mark webber will never and ever be a F1 champion=> the guy isnt fit for it.

LOL, you are angry! :D

[maxter]

yes mate. next time Lewis Hamilton must make sure Mark webber takes a permenant flight and claim I held my line you turned wrong way ! that is the fitting tribute to webber & redbull team
Thanks, now I'm confident you're just trolling. Have a good one.

[Valve Bounce]

I watched the accident view times, Webber was actually aiming for the hit. Maybe OK with the rules, but don't like this kind of attitude on the track.
.

That's an interesting concept.

[CNR]

Webber is an idiot driver, he doesnt like anyone over taking him no matter he is dead slow or take wrong lines trying to deal with slower cars... while Lewis did the correct thing seeing an oppurtunity to get past and Webber deliberately run in to him, He knew by hitting Lewis on the sidepots or tyres lewis (his main title contender) will be done,the maximum he will lose his front wing and can still come back to finish the race on points... crafty little p*rk.

i am well annoyed at the whole redbull team , they have caused many accidents this year running in to other drivers and take them away.

people blaming Lewis must remember that Lewis Hamilton is a racer unlike the others and without overtaking attempts racing is like a crown without jewels, its damn rare and boring procession of following one by one sport it has become Lewis hamilton like very few who provies thatextra bit, so sometimes things do go wrong !

mark webber will never and ever be a F1 champion=> the guy isnt fit for it.
lewis is the f***wit that did not leave racing room

[52Paddy]

Webber is an idiot driver, he doesnt like anyone over taking him

Ask any driver out there and they'll tell you they don't like to be overtaken. Who likes to be overtaken?


Webber deliberately run in to him, He knew by hitting Lewis on the sidepots or tyres lewis (his main title contender) will be done,the maximum he will lose his front wing and can still come back to finish the race on points...

And how the hell do you know that? You think Webber would intentionally put his own championship in jeopardy just to take Lewis out? Get real! It's not what I'd call Japan 1990 or Adelaide 1994 :rolleyes:


i am well annoyed at the whole redbull team , they have caused many accidents this year running in to other drivers and take them away.

Like who? Themselves?


people blaming Lewis must remember that Lewis Hamilton is a racer unlike the others

Fernando won the race cleanly and he's not a racer? Vettel pushed him hard in the closing stages, and he's not a racer? Webber came from a not-so-good strategy in the midfield, to climb up to 3rd which, is realistically, the maximum he could get, and he's not a racer? How far does your implication others go? I just hope it doesn't reach Kubica :mark:


and without overtaking attempts racing is like a crown without jewels, its damn rare and boring procession of following one by one

Really? :eek: Thanks for the heads up.


Lewis hamilton like very few who provies that extra bit, so sometimes things do go wrong !

I love this :D So you're defending Hamilton by saying he sometimes gets things wrong? Or is it that "things go wrong around him".....ppppffff


mark webber will never and ever be a F1 champion=> the guy isnt fit for it.

I think Mark has as good a chance as anybody. You're being completely unrealistic. But, all in all, I must say, well done :up: As a troll, you've completed your task in winding me up at stupid o'clock. Can you F-off now please.

[THE_LIBERATOR]

Oh yeah, that's why I don't come here anymore.

[Valve Bounce]

Webber is an idiot driver, he doesnt like anyone over taking him no matter he is dead slow or take wrong lines trying to deal with slower cars... while Lewis did the correct thing seeing an oppurtunity to get past and Webber deliberately run in to him, He knew by hitting Lewis on the sidepots or tyres lewis (his main title contender) will be done,the maximum he will lose his front wing and can still come back to finish the race on points... crafty little p*rk.

i am well annoyed at the whole redbull team , they have caused many accidents this year running in to other drivers and take them away.

people blaming Lewis must remember that Lewis Hamilton is a racer unlike the others and without overtaking attempts racing is like a crown without jewels, its damn rare and boring procession of following one by one sport it has become Lewis hamilton like very few who provies thatextra bit, so sometimes things do go wrong !

mark webber will never and ever be a F1 champion=> the guy isnt fit for it.

I don't think that even StD would agree with you on this. :rolleyes:

[Valve Bounce]

Oh yeah, that's why I don't come here anymore.

That's not fair :(
We went to all that trouble to get StD to come here to entertain you.

[Marbles]

Championship runs require great skill, team work AND good luck. When a front tire collides against a rear tire you most likely expect the man with the front tire to suffer the most. This sort of good fortune reminds me of the "breaks" that Zanardi and Schumacher would often catch.

I think this bodes well for Webber.

A racing incident for sure -- as much as it pains me to admit.

[Saint Devote]

I don't think that even StD would agree with you on this. :rolleyes:

Indeed I disagree with his comments.

Two of the toughest racers into a small space reduced further by the Virgin-Cosworth on a track without runoff?!

Webber is one of the most difficult people in f1 to overtake and the elbow was out.

I think Lewis ought to have been more circumspect - but that is not Hamiton, at least in 2010. Perhaps when he is older amd more experienced, but not today.

I think the criticism launched at Hamilton in the press is not just. I do not support Lewis - obviously - and I have been a harsh critic at times, but at both Monza and Marina Bay, he was just being the quintessential Lewis.

This is the same Lewis that was, in my view, the best GP2 driver ever - his drive in Hungary in 2006 ranks alongside Nigel's in F1 - incredible overtaking.

How can people be so fickle? The words that attack him in the press can have a real affect and I recommend that he become like Nelson Piquet. Read nothing and only speak to chosen reporters.

Ron Dennis will support him on this.

[Tazio]

Valve :bounce: , LIBERATOR ;) , and most importantly 52Paddy, :s mash:

http://thrivingtoo.typepad.com/thriving_too/images/2008/09/13/wrong.jpg

It's only 7pm over here.
Now I can have my dinner after digesting some forum gold :p

[jparker]

Are you kidding? He was clearly trying to take the corner. Hamilton turned in too tight too late, Webber was a little too aggressive, racing incident and partly both of them to blame just as most people here agree on.
What in the world makes you say Webber aimed for the hit? Ridiculous.

Hamilton just followed the racing line for that corner, but he should of known that Webber is not going to let him, and yes that's his fault. He should of avoid the racing line and shut the door earlier.
About the aiming, it wasn't sudden accident. Webber had few seconds to judge the situation and he did very well. Little slower and he could of miss Hamilton, little faster, and he could of taken the hardest hit. I call that aiming, and it wasn't that hard to see it, he slowed down perfectly and just touched Hamilton's wheel.
I personally don't like this behavior, but I know that this is part of the game, so I agree that we can call that racing incident.

[jparker]

Championship runs require great skill, team work AND good luck. When a front tire collides against a rear tire you most likely expect the man with the front tire to suffer the most. This sort of good fortune reminds me of the "breaks" that Zanardi and Schumacher would often catch.

I think this bodes well for Webber.

A racing incident for sure -- as much as it pains me to admit.

Yes, that's true, but in this case the wheels didn't collide, they just touched, and yes you need to be as good as Webber to do this. And once again, Hamilton was the one who opened the door for this accident, so I don't really blame Webber, I just personally don't like this part of the car racing.

[Ari]

i do think it is spetacularly harsh to blame Hamilton for this one, he was partially ahead on the straight and Webber tried to repass going into the corner and failed, hitting Hamilton. I do agree it was probably a racing incident, but on balance I feel it was Webbers mistake (assuming he didn't hit him on purpose) and that Hamilton was correct in taking the corner from Mark.

Monza all Hamiltons fault, this time not so, albeit probably rightly adjudged raxcing incident, even if my instinct at the time was that Webber would have a. broken his car and b. received a drive through, so it seems he was pretty lucky

Pretty much my thoughts....

[Ari]

Webber is an idiot driver, he doesnt like anyone over taking him no matter he is dead slow or take wrong lines trying to deal with slower cars... while Lewis did the correct thing seeing an oppurtunity to get past and Webber deliberately run in to him, He knew by hitting Lewis on the sidepots or tyres lewis (his main title contender) will be done,the maximum he will lose his front wing and can still come back to finish the race on points... crafty little p*rk.

i am well annoyed at the whole redbull team , they have caused many accidents this year running in to other drivers and take them away.

people blaming Lewis must remember that Lewis Hamilton is a racer unlike the others and without overtaking attempts racing is like a crown without jewels, its damn rare and boring procession of following one by one sport it has become Lewis hamilton like very few who provies thatextra bit, so sometimes things do go wrong !

mark webber will never and ever be a F1 champion=> the guy isnt fit for it.

Yikes!

Who overtook more cars in that race than anyone?

Pretty sure Webber took about 3 or 4 guys after the re-start.

Comments of a whinging pom if you ask me.

[Ari]

lewis is the f***wit that did not leave racing room

Surely Webber would just stop then and let him go past? I mean, Lewis was on the outside.......

[Valve Bounce]

Surely Webber would just stop then and let him go past? I mean, Lewis was on the outside.......

Ari, I would ask :"had the driver, instead of Mark, been Alonso, Kube Man, Massa, Vettel, Sutil, Hulkenberg, SchM, Rosberg, Petrov, just to name a few, would the outcome have been any different?"

None of these guys would have given Lewis Hamilton an inch to get past.
You go around the outside, you take the risk and you suffer the consequesnces if it doesn't come off. End of Story.

[Saint Devote]

Ari, I would ask :"had the driver, instead of Mark, been Alonso, Kube Man, Massa, Vettel, Sutil, Hulkenberg, SchM, Rosberg, Petrov, just to name a few, would the outcome have been any different?"

None of these guys would have given Lewis Hamilton an inch to get past.
You go around the outside, you take the risk and you suffer the consequesnces if it doesn't come off. End of Story.

It seems that McLaren are not handling the situation too well, because has said after these incidents he intends to change his approach.

However in close situations like that, a driver such as Hamilton at this stage of his career does not have the automatic stopper that exists in the repertoire of experienced drives such as Webber is displaying this year since his early season chaos.

Lewis is going to have to overcome his instinct if he forces change. We will have to wait and see what he means.

[Bagwan]

Houston , we have a problem .

They can't see what is beside them . That's dumb .

From Lewis's perspective , he couldn't see if Mark had backed out of it before he tried it on .
And , from Mark's view , he couldn't know if Lewis knew he hadn't .

The height of the structure beside the head is mandated to be of a certain measurement , to protect the driver in case of inversion .
This height blocks the view of the driver substantially , creating a situation that has drivers making blind assumptions .

Only when a driver is fully aligned with one beside can he see what is going on .
It's not like the good old days when you could turn your head and see the guy trying that inside move .

This is safety getting in the way of safety .

I'd rather see a big old chromey roll bar behind the head and have them able to see who they are racing .
You can't intimidate a guy who can't see you .


As for this incident , Lewis should have known he go in hard , and left enough room . He had room , and could still have kept momentum , being he was apexing much wider .

[wedge]

Racing incident

But here's a couple of notes worth considering:

*Webbo in another avoidable collision this year

*Hamilton pushing his luck and once again luck does not favour Hamilton in the latter stages of a WDC fight

[Retro Formula 1]

It was a racing incident but an avoidable one.

I think Webber knew the position was lost and Lewis was going to take the line. He would have been better dropping in behind and going for a switchback.

Lewis equally should have known that Webber was going to leave his nose in and allowed a bit more room.

Basically, they could have both avoided contact but didn't.

I want to go back to the time when the Red Bull drivers just took each other out. ;)

[motetarip]

The height of the structure beside the head is mandated to be of a certain measurement , to protect the driver in case of inversion .

I thought it was introduced after Senna's death to stop drivers being hit in the side of the head by flying debris

[motetarip]

It was a racing incident but an avoidable one.

I think Webber knew the position was lost and Lewis was going to take the line. He would have been better dropping in behind and going for a switchback.

Lewis equally should have known that Webber was going to leave his nose in and allowed a bit more room.

Basically, they could have both avoided contact but didn't.

I want to go back to the time when the Red Bull drivers just took each other out. ;)

Agreed!

[Ranger]

I thought it was introduced after Senna's death to stop drivers being hit in the side of the head by flying debris

It was introduced after the Wurz/Coulthard accident in Australia 2007.


This is safety getting in the way of safety .

That is true.

[CNR]

I thought we shipped all our POM's over to you guys? :p :)

Nigel (top gear australia season 3 episode 1) F--kin' Legend
you won't Leo Sayer back

[Roamy]

It was a racing incident but an avoidable one.

I think Webber knew the position was lost and Lewis was going to take the line. He would have been better dropping in behind and going for a switchback.

Lewis equally should have known that Webber was going to leave his nose in and allowed a bit more room.

Basically, they could have both avoided contact but didn't.

I want to go back to the time when the Red Bull drivers just took each other out. ;)

If webber's tire would have come off as it should have it would have been a big loss for webber. he got lucky and he could have avoided the issue. Bu inasmuch as I want alonso to win I could really care less. But we have a real good championship this year regardless of who wins.

[Ari]

Ari, I would ask :"had the driver, instead of Mark, been Alonso, Kube Man, Massa, Vettel, Sutil, Hulkenberg, SchM, Rosberg, Petrov, just to name a few, would the outcome have been any different?"

None of these guys would have given Lewis Hamilton an inch to get past.
You go around the outside, you take the risk and you suffer the consequesnces if it doesn't come off. End of Story.

Faulty sarcasm detector? ;)

[Valve Bounce]

Faulty sarcasm detector? ;)

I know! It's just that some guys here think that most drivers would give way to someone coming round the outside. Kube Man managed just such a pass but he was clear ahead before pulling in. SchM probably would have run him off the track and into the barriers.

Different if a guy goes down the inside; then the car outside has to find a way around the corner on the less grippy surface.

[wmcot]

Martin Whitmarsh saying on the beeb, that Hamilton was clearly ahead no arguements.

No quite sure thats true Martin????

More precisely, I would say the Hamilton was about 80% ahead - unfortunately for him the remaining 20% was his rear wheel! :)

[SGWilko]

It was introduced after the Wurz/Coulthard accident in Australia 2007.



That is true.

Didn't Sauber voluntarily use such a device in the wake of Wendlingers accident in Monaco way back in ????

This subsequently led to the FIA adopting the cockpit sides.

The suspesion that pierced Senna's helmet and subsequently invaded his brain may or may not have been prevented by high cockpit sides.

[Valve Bounce]

I can answer the question for one of the guys at least. Sutil did find himself in the exact same position at the exact same corner and he breaked hard and let Kubica have the corner because he knew he was beaten. Sutil didn't have as much to lose as Webber and maybe contact was worth the risk when the drivers standings are taken into consideration. I'm not saying Webber deliberately took Hamilton out, but he knew he had to make it as difficult as possible for Lewis to overtake and steal points off him.

I think the incident has helped both guys however. Mark is known as a tough racer and Lewis is known to take risks and if you don't get out of his way, you'll certainly know about it. I think if Webber hadn't made it to the end of the race, we'd see a very different reaction to Lewis in the press and across the boards. :)

I thought Kube Man was completely ahead rather than just 80%.

[ArrowsFA1]

It's just that some guys here think that most drivers would give way to someone coming round the outside.
Reminds me of this:
uNg6IvrIHbk

Andretti said afterwards: "Hunt says you don't pass on the outside in grand prix racing. Silly jerk."

[ShiftingGears]

Andretti said afterwards: "Hunt says you don't pass on the outside in grand prix racing. Silly jerk."

:laugh:

I think Andretti's assessment of Hunt is pretty accurate there.

[ShiftingGears]

Didn't Sauber voluntarily use such a device in the wake of Wendlingers accident in Monaco way back in ????

This subsequently led to the FIA adopting the cockpit sides.

The suspesion that pierced Senna's helmet and subsequently invaded his brain may or may not have been prevented by high cockpit sides.

The cockpit sides were additionally modified after the 2007 Australian GP. While they were already present for quite a while, the changes resulted in the cockpit sides being higher up, and moved forward, greatly decreasing a drivers peripheral vision.

See the RB1, as an example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coulthard_RedBull_Canada2005.jpg

Compared to the RB4, in 2008: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mark_Webber_2008_France.jpg

[pino]

Sorry but I was away for the whole weekend, let me know if you want me to add a poll on this thread (don't have time to read all posts) :p :

[yodasarmpit]

Just a racing incident, I can't lay blame at eather drivers door for this one.

[Dave B]

Sorry but I was away for the whole weekend, let me know if you want me to add a poll on this thread (don't have time to read all posts) :p :
I doubt it's necessary, but thanks for the offer. It seems that ~90% (including me) accept it was a simple racing incident.

[Mixa]

Yup,just a simple racing incident but still I wasn´t so surprised to see Webber crashing into someone. It always looks like when Webber has a poor QL or isn´t doing well for some reason,most of the time you can expect to see a collision.

[motetarip]

It was introduced after the Wurz/Coulthard accident in Australia 2007.

Article previewing the 1996 technical regulations, introducing higher cockpit sides to protect the driver:

http://www.grandprix.com/ft/ft00206.html

[Bagwan]

You need to be wheels aligned to be sure the driver you are passing has seen you , and you have no idea whether he has at all before that point .

Up until then , you have no idea whether you have won the corner , or will end up in the wall .

It makes every driver need to go in deeper , and closer to the edge of catastrophe , totally unsighted until the very last moment .

It is horribly ironic that such safety innovation has created such unsafe conditions .
Also rather ironic are changes to mirror configurations , during this "un-sightly"(sorry) period , first from teams more concerned with the aero advantage than the safety ensured by being able to see behind you , and second , by the FIA , who were cleaning up the aero , and restoring vision , just not peripheral .

This is all during a time when drivers regularly say "I didn't see him coming" in interviews .

It's not just the aeros that make it hard to pass in F1 .

No peripheral vision causes accidents .
F1 cars are unsafe .

Mandate a bar along the cockpit side , just above his vision , and use it to mount the mirror .
That is two problems solved , and likely an increase in safety at the same time .

[tintop]

Um....this was a race, right? There wasn't an "incident" just a pass attempt.

That is the definition of a "racing incident" no-fault contact in the normal course of racing. Incidental contact.

[Ari]

Sorry but I was away for the whole weekend, let me know if you want me to add a poll on this thread (don't have time to read all posts) :p :

Nah. 90% agree it was a racing incident.

[jens]

It looks like people are talking about different things here. The height of cockpit sides were increased after both 1994 and 2007 accidents. But the increase that affects driver's visibility we are talking about here, is related to the latest change.

[Mia 01]

It´s not about the visibility, Lewis took a longshot, he knewed that Mark was there but he tried to scare him off, just like he did to many other drivers. When will he learn.

[motetarip]

It´s not about the visibility, Lewis took a longshot, he knewed that Mark was there but he tried to scare him off, just like he did to many other drivers. When will he learn.

Both as pig headed as each other, they wouldn't be any good at racing if they weren't