UN panel: Israel broke international laws in deadly flotilla raid

[Eki]

Like we didn't already know it:

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/09/22/israel.flotilla.report/index.html

But I guess it's still futile to expect they'd put some sanctions on Israel.

[Hondo]

What kind of sanctions did you have in mind? As a general rule, sanctions are used to create economic penalties that pressure a government into stopping or modifying a certain policy or behaviour. Israel already stopped the ship, it is a done event. I doubt sanctions will make Israel drop their blockade and I doubt that the UN would be successful in getting member nations to assemble an escort flotilla to see future ships safely into port. The UN and it's members cannot afford to have Israel prove that a ship under their escort did indeed carry contraband.

It's kind of like the British government preventing attempts to dive on the Lusitania wreck for so many years. A couple of dives would have proven the Lusitania was carrying war material and therefore a legitimate target and not the innocent passenger ship she was made out to be. The outrage would have shifted from Germany for sinking her to the British government for endangering civilian lives by using them to smuggle contraband.

[Eki]

What kind of sanctions did you have in mind? As a general rule, sanctions are used to create economic penalties that pressure a government into stopping or modifying a certain policy or behaviour.
That's just what I have in mind. IMO the current behaviour and policies of Israel are not acceptable. IMO Israel should give back the occupied territories and make Israel a secular nation instead of a Jewish nation, maybe change its name too, because it has historical burden.

[Hondo]

Again, what kind of sanctions do you have in mind?

[Hondo]

That's just what I have in mind. IMO the current behaviour and policies of Israel are not acceptable. IMO Israel should give back the occupied territories and make Israel a secular nation instead of a Jewish nation, maybe change its name too, because it has historical burden.

Much of the occupied territories were gained through war or hostilities Israel did not start. They are legitimate war prizes. Are the Arab nations prepared to buy these lands back along with extra payments for improvements and war costs?

I am surprised that you, the champion of the sovereignty of small nations, should demand a nation to change it's name. Do you also demand that Islamic nations also become secular? The problem is that you can be Jewish by religion without being Jewish by race.

[anthonyvop]

Like we didn't already know it:

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/09/22/israel.flotilla.report/index.html

But I guess it's still futile to expect they'd put some sanctions on Israel.


Yes sir. The U.N. Human Rights Council. That bastion of freedom and liberty that includes such beacons of Human Rights as their Vice Presidents Arcanjo Maria Do Nascimento of Angola and Rodolfo Reyes Rodríguez of Cuba.
Along with the following open and transparent governments of China, Cuba, Libya and Nigeria.

But lets us forget that little bit of crazy.

Exactly what is International Law?
Did the Citizens of Israel get a chance to vote on who represents them when these laws are cooked up? Is the vote of a nation like Burkino Fasso equal to a vote from a Country like the US?

or

Is International Law some silly P.R. Ideas for countries to use in defense of their actions & to use when wanting to sanction their enemies?

[Bob Riebe]

Like we didn't already know it:

Like anyone really cares?

[race aficionado]

Like anyone really cares?

That's precisely the problem.

[Bob Riebe]

That's precisely the problem.
No, self-appointed people, sticking their noses where they have no real business, and trying to play god, is a far greater problem.

[glauistean]

That's just what I have in mind. IMO the current behaviour and policies of Israel are not acceptable. IMO Israel should give back the occupied territories and make Israel a secular nation instead of a Jewish nation, maybe change its name too, because it has historical burden.

Eki, do you recal Jenin? Hundreds killed and a investigation approved then denied a day or so later.

From then on it has been very quiet. Not a peep from anyone in the world and all we see on TV is people driving around in fancy boats trying to save whales( just cause) but not what I would consider a priority.

If anyone want s to see people living in modern day concentration like conditions then take a trip to Ramallah and Jenin.

Forget that amonst the many there are some terrorists. Look at the children with the bloated bellies. The mothers clenching their children out of fear.

One attack on Tel Aviv and it is in the news for days.

Attack on Palestinians and it is not reported and if it is, then it is a token.

We don't get news here in the US. Go to Europe. See the news on ITV, RTE, CH4 and others in mainland Europe.

One question. How many here knows, honestly, without the benefit of Google how many faction are fighting in all of the Congo region. I am including DRC and Congo.

[Eki]

Exactly what is International Law?
Did the Citizens of Israel get a chance to vote on who represents them when these laws are cooked up? Is the vote of a nation like Burkino Fasso equal to a vote from a Country like the US?

or

Is International Law some silly P.R. Ideas for countries to use in defense of their actions & to use when wanting to sanction their enemies?
Good points. Nobody asked the Iraqis and the Afghans if their countries should be invaded either. And the vote of a nation like Burkina Faso is certainly not equal to a vote from a country like the US, not even nations like Germany and Japan are. I've always said that the UN is not democratic, but unfortunately it's the best we have.

[Eki]

No, self-appointed people, sticking their noses where they have no real business, and trying to play god, is a far greater problem.
Sounds like the good ol' USA.

[Eki]

Much of the occupied territories were gained through war or hostilities Israel did not start. They are legitimate war prizes. Are the Arab nations prepared to buy these lands back along with extra payments for improvements and war costs?

I am surprised that you, the champion of the sovereignty of small nations, should demand a nation to change it's name. Do you also demand that Islamic nations also become secular? The problem is that you can be Jewish by religion without being Jewish by race.
Are there Islamic nations that have been purpose built by Muslims from all over the world with just one goal in mind, to build an Islamic nation?

[F1boat]

The UN can do nothing, but still the gesture is clear - the world does not approve what Israel does. I think that their policy prves that Nietsche was right - you fight the beast too hard and you become the beast...

[Hondo]

Are there Islamic nations that have been purpose built by Muslims from all over the world with just one goal in mind, to build an Islamic nation?

I don't know. You'd have to ask the Brits. They built most of them, including Israel.

[Jag_Warrior]

Imagine if the U.S. military fired upon illegal immigrants entering the U.S. from Mexico... even those suspected of importing poison (drugs) that help destroy American society.

A fisherman has been shot and killed by the Israeli navy off the northern coast of the Gaza Strip, doctors in the territory say.

Israeli officials say the boat had strayed beyond the limit to which Palestinians are allowed to fish under the Israeli blockade. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11407188)

From the same piece:

...last week Israel admitted it had wrongly shot and killed three civilians, including a 91-year-old man.

If Israel sees fit to pay this man's family any money, I wonder how much that's going to cost me (the American taxpayer)?

[Jag_Warrior]

No, self-appointed people, sticking their noses where they have no real business, and trying to play god, is a far greater problem.


Sounds like the good ol' USA.

Doesn't it though?! :dozey:

I have a good raging rant against neoconnery saved up, but I don't have time right now. I'll have to remember to blast the new world order neocons later.

[Bob Riebe]

Doesn't it though?! :dozey:

I have a good raging rant against neoconnery saved up, but I don't have time right now. I'll have to remember to blast the new world order neocons later.
Godfather of neoconservatism dies
Irving Kristol's right-wing ideas held sway for two decades


The man known as the "godfather of neoconservatism", Irving Kristol, has died from lung cancer at the age of 89.

Mr Kristol rejected the communist beliefs of his youth to become a leading right-wing thinker and writer.

His ideas had a huge influence on the Bush administration and in 2002 he was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom by President George W Bush.

The magazine edited by his son William Kristol, The Weekly Standard, paid tribute to his "wisdom" and "wit".

It added that his "generosity of spirit made him a friend and mentor to several generations of thinkers and public servants".

Trotskyist

Irving Kristol was born in New York's Brooklyn neighbourhood, the son of Jewish immigrants from Ukraine.

In the 1930s he was a Trotskyist but he turned his back on his radical left-wing beliefs in favour of liberalism.

In the 1960s he rejected that after the rise of the New Left. An intellectual pioneer who advanced the conservative movement
Former President George W Bush on Irving Kristol





In the 1970s he completed his move across the political spectrum by joining the Republican Party, which he said had once been as "foreign to me as attending a Catholic Mass".

Writing in 2003, Mr Kristol described neoconservatism as a "persuasion" and underlined that it had its roots among "disillusioned liberal intellectuals in the 1970s".

He also once famously described neoconservatives as liberals "mugged by reality".

Huge influence

The term neoconservatism was created by the socialist writer Michael Harrington in the early 1970s.

Fellow neoconservative founder Norman Podhoretz wrote that "the influence of Irving Kristol's ideas has been one of the most important factors in reshaping the American climate of opinion over the past 40 years".

Mr Kristol was a driving force in a series of think-tanks like the American Enterprise Institute that made conservatism a reigning ideology for at least two decades.

He wrote for many media outlets and penned several books including "Neoconservatism: The Autobiography of an Idea".

Former US President George W Bush, whose administration included several neoconservatives, issued a statement calling him "an intellectual pioneer who advanced the conservative movement".

But the reputation of the group was hit by controversy over the Iraq war in 2003 - which many neocons pushed for - and by the global economic downturn....

[Roamy]

Eki, do you recal Jenin? Hundreds killed and a investigation approved then denied a day or so later.

From then on it has been very quiet. Not a peep from anyone in the world and all we see on TV is people driving around in fancy boats trying to save whales( just cause) but not what I would consider a priority.

If anyone want s to see people living in modern day concentration like conditions then take a trip to Ramallah and Jenin.

Forget that amonst the many there are some terrorists. Look at the children with the bloated bellies. The mothers clenching their children out of fear.

One attack on Tel Aviv and it is in the news for days.

Attack on Palestinians and it is not reported and if it is, then it is a token.

We don't get news here in the US. Go to Europe. See the news on ITV, RTE, CH4 and others in mainland Europe.

One question. How many here knows, honestly, without the benefit of Google how many faction are fighting in all of the Congo region. I am including DRC and Congo.

I have a great idea. Why don't you go make sure that no one commits a violent act against Israel and during that time let see how many people they kill.

[anthonyvop]

Good points. Nobody asked the Iraqis and the Afghans if their countries should be invaded either.

Didn't anyone ever tell you to never pick a fight you know you can't win.

The Governments of Iraq and Afghanistan didn't either.

Funny thing though. Those crowds of tens of thousands of cheering Iraqis and Afghans seemed to not be too upset with the invasions.

[Roamy]

Now here is the epitome of dumb. They offered Saddam 20 billion to just leave. How can anyone possibly be this dumb. So you are sitting there with a gun at your head EKI and the guy says leave Finland with the 10 mil and never come back. And you say oh no can I take you to the sauna before you shoot me. :) Too bad Janice didn't get Saddam some of that "Social Education" in time.

[Eki]

Didn't anyone ever tell you to never pick a fight you know you can't win.

The Governments of Iraq and Afghanistan didn't either.

Funny thing though. Those crowds of tens of thousands of cheering Iraqis and Afghans seemed to not be too upset with the invasions.
Tens of thousands aren't much in countries with millions of people. Tens of thousands also take part in anti-American and anti-Israel rallies. Tens of thousands of Cubans also cheered for the Castro revolution.

[Eki]

Now here is the epitome of dumb. They offered Saddam 20 billion to just leave. How can anyone possibly be this dumb. So you are sitting there with a gun at your head EKI and the guy says leave Finland with the 10 mil and never come back.
Wouldn't that be appeasing terrorists or extortionists? Something the US says they never do. If Saddam had promised Bush 20 billion to leave him and Iraq alone, do you think Bush would have taken the offer?

[Eki]

Godfather of neoconservatism dies
Irving Kristol's right-wing ideas held sway for two decades


The man known as the "godfather of neoconservatism", Irving Kristol, has died from lung cancer at the age of 89.

Mr Kristol rejected the communist beliefs of his youth to become a leading right-wing thinker and writer.

His ideas had a huge influence on the Bush administration and in 2002 he was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom by President George W Bush.

The magazine edited by his son William Kristol, The Weekly Standard, paid tribute to his "wisdom" and "wit".

It added that his "generosity of spirit made him a friend and mentor to several generations of thinkers and public servants".

Trotskyist

Irving Kristol was born in New York's Brooklyn neighbourhood, the son of Jewish immigrants from Ukraine.

In the 1930s he was a Trotskyist but he turned his back on his radical left-wing beliefs in favour of liberalism.

In the 1960s he rejected that after the rise of the New Left. An intellectual pioneer who advanced the conservative movement
Former President George W Bush on Irving Kristol





In the 1970s he completed his move across the political spectrum by joining the Republican Party, which he said had once been as "foreign to me as attending a Catholic Mass".

Writing in 2003, Mr Kristol described neoconservatism as a "persuasion" and underlined that it had its roots among "disillusioned liberal intellectuals in the 1970s".

He also once famously described neoconservatives as liberals "mugged by reality".

Huge influence

The term neoconservatism was created by the socialist writer Michael Harrington in the early 1970s.

Fellow neoconservative founder Norman Podhoretz wrote that "the influence of Irving Kristol's ideas has been one of the most important factors in reshaping the American climate of opinion over the past 40 years".

Mr Kristol was a driving force in a series of think-tanks like the American Enterprise Institute that made conservatism a reigning ideology for at least two decades.

He wrote for many media outlets and penned several books including "Neoconservatism: The Autobiography of an Idea".

Former US President George W Bush, whose administration included several neoconservatives, issued a statement calling him "an intellectual pioneer who advanced the conservative movement".

But the reputation of the group was hit by controversy over the Iraq war in 2003 - which many neocons pushed for - and by the global economic downturn....
Wow! From a far fringe of the political spectrum to the other in record time. Talk about a flip-flopper. Seems to have been an unscrupulous opportunist. Tells volumes about Bush that he had him as an advisor.

[Bob Riebe]

Wow! From a far fringe of the political spectrum to the other in record ime. Talk about a flip-flopper. Seems to have been an unscrupulous opportunist. Tells volumes about Bush that he had him as an advisor.
Gee and you are the one who flatulates about obeying the law no matter what; you are making yourself out to be a liar.