Questions about Bowyer's winning car [Archive]

Jonesi

22nd September 2010, 22:02

Per Jayski:
UPDATE: NASCAR has issued penalties, suspensions and fines as a result of rules infractions discovered this week during post-race inspection at the NASCAR Research and Development Center following last Sunday's race at New Hampshire Motor Speedway. The #33 team was found to be in violation of Sections 12-1 (actions detrimental to stock car racing); 12-4-J (any determination by NASCAR officials that the race equipment used in the event does not conform to NASCAR rules); and 20-3 (car body location specifications in reference to the certified chassis did not meet NASCAR-approved specifications) of the 2010 NASCAR Rule Book. As a result, crew chief Shane Wilson has been fined $150,000, suspended from the next six NASCAR Sprint Cup events, suspended from NASCAR until Nov. 3 and placed on probation until Dec. 31. Car chief Chad Haney has also been suspended from the next six NASCAR Sprint Cup events, suspended from NASCAR until Nov. 3 and placed on probation until Dec. 31. Driver Clint Bowyer and owner Richard Childress have been penalized with the loss of 150 championship driver and owner points, respectively. (NASCAR), the penalty drops Bowyer from 2nd in the driver point standings (http://www.jayski.com/stats/2010/points/27nhms2010points.htm) to 12th.(9-22-2010)

Alexamateo

22nd September 2010, 22:14

Wow!!! :eek:

Mark in Oshawa

22nd September 2010, 22:19

Alexamateo

22nd September 2010, 22:30

Especially if they were essentially warned the week before.

NickFalzone

22nd September 2010, 22:43

Aint that a kick in the teeth? Bowyer I am sure knew nothing of it. It makes you wonder how minor was this violation if they couldn't find it at the track? I mean, these are race cars, not swiss watches so I know there is some tolerance for imperfections and the like.

That said, there is no room for messing with the rules. Childress has some splaining to do....

I didn't bring it up, but I felt there was something up with Bowyer's car too.. he just got up to the front so much easier than everyone else. Not saying that makes the car automatically "illegal", but for his team to dominate like it did on Sun was surprising. I was kind of hoping Stewart would get the gas mileage because it looked like something was up with the 33.

youtellme

23rd September 2010, 01:26

CHARLOTTE, N.C. – Clint Bowyer's NASCAR championship chances were crippled Wednesday when his car failed a follow-up inspection and he was penalized 150 points after winning last weekend's first race of the Chase for the Sprint Cup.

NASCAR also fined crew chief Shane Wilson $150,000, and suspended him for the next six Sprint Cup races. Car chief Chad Haney was also suspended six races, and team owner Richard Childress was docked 150 owner points. The team plans to appeal the penalty.

Bowyer was permitted to keep Sunday's victory at New Hampshire — NASCAR does not typically strip wins and an official said the Richard Childress Racing team probably was punished enoug

slorydn1

23rd September 2010, 02:03

"First of all, I'd like to apologize to our sponsors, our fans and everyone at RCR for the situation that has resulted from this ruling. RCR has a long-standing reputation of integrity on and off the race track. We pride ourselves on working within the rules established by the sanctioning body. NASCAR informed us after the Richmond race that we were very close to their maximum tolerances. They also told us they were going to take our New Hampshire car to the NASCAR Technical Center after that race. It doesn't make any sense at all that we would send a car to New Hampshire that wasn't within NASCAR's tolerances. I am confident we fixed the area of concern and the New Hampshire car left the race shop well within the tolerances required by NASCAR. We feel certain that the cause of the car being out of tolerance by sixty thousandths of an inch, less than 1/16 of an inch, happened as a result of the wrecker hitting the rear bumper when it pushed the car into winner's circle. The rear bumper was also hit on the cool down lap by other drivers congratulating Clint on his victory. That's the only logical way that the left-rear of the car was found to be high at the tech center. We will appeal NASCAR's ruling and take it all the way to the NASCAR commissioner for a final ruling, if need be."(RCR)(9-22-2010)

I figured it hadda be something like this. But Nascar holds all the cards so the appeal is pointless....

Sparky1329

23rd September 2010, 04:31

I figured it hadda be something like this. But Nascar holds all the cards so the appeal is pointless....

Yep. You'd have to have a serious grudge against yourself and your team to mess with something after you've been warned. Even if it seems pointless, I hope RC appeals.

harvick#1

23rd September 2010, 06:11

Mark in Oshawa

23rd September 2010, 07:19

Johnsons has done that so many times before, and they have been slammed.

I guess Nascar is just playing favorites again on this BS crap, gotta make sure Hamlin, Busch, or Johnson win the title :rolleyes:

and just remember Bowyers car PASSED post race inspection, the 11 and 48 both FAILED post race inspection, why the allowance of re-inspecting, and the 11 and 48 got no penalty. Nascar once again loses more credibility in my books

You really give me a giggle...you really think Brian France and et al would want to dump all over the RCR boys so the same guy who people have not warmed up to (Johnson) can win or one of the Gibb's boys? You sniffing something? I am trying to figure out how NASCAR wins if Shrub or Hamlin takes this. Neither has a big following compared to say someone like Gordon or Tony Stewart. If they are going to "fix" things, this isn't how they do it.....

The 33 was out. RCR can make excuses but it was out..but by a sliver. I don't believe for a second that the 33 was so much better for a trunk lid that was fractions of an inch higher on one side that by the way passed the post race inspection. This ruling is because the tolerances are so tight, even the slightest bump can take a car out of that tolerance zone and out of compliance.

Harv, you should be damn happy your buddy Happy wasn't the one pulled in....

RCR was pushing the edge of the rules but not trying to go over and the screwed up. That's it...good luck with the appeal....but I don't see them getting anywhere...

Lee Roy

23rd September 2010, 12:09

Nascar once again loses more credibility in my books

Yet, here you are.

Steve-o

23rd September 2010, 13:02

NASCAR's official statement and RCR's release:

http://section102.blogspot.com/2010/09/bowyer-rcr-docked-150-points-for-rule.html

harvick#1

23rd September 2010, 15:42

Yet, here you are.

because Harvick still races in the series, if he leaves, I wouldn't be watching it anymore

and I'm sorry, being 1/16 of an inch short from the rear bumper is really believable :rolleyes: it was still cause by damage from racing and from the tow truck.

you, in all honesty, cant tell Nascar plays favorites, ever.

how many debris cautions come out when Junior is about to be lapped?

Lee Roy

23rd September 2010, 17:30

and I'm sorry, being 1/16 of an inch short from the rear bumper is really believable . . . . .

How much of a variance from the rule is acceptable to you?

Lee Roy

23rd September 2010, 17:32

Also, if I thought that the races were "fixed", as you apparently think they are, I would never pay NASCAR any attention again.

If you think that NASCAR is just a show with a pre-determined outcome, like WWE, why then do you watch?

I am evil Homer

23rd September 2010, 17:41

How much of a variance from the rule is acceptable to you?

You honestly think being 1/16 of an inch shorter makes a performance difference?

Lee Roy

23rd September 2010, 18:11

You honestly think being 1/16 of an inch shorter makes a performance difference?

Not sure. If you're going to say that a variance in rules is acceptable, then don't you need to define exactly what variance in acceptable?

Are you really serious that a racing or sporting organization should arbitrarily enforce rules? "Okay, a sixteenth of an inch over is acceptable, but an eigth of an inch over isn't."

harvick#1

23rd September 2010, 19:14

Lee Roy

23rd September 2010, 19:29

well, go on yahoo and read the articles and read other fans posting on that. they are all tired of it. there are some saying that now the drivers should start slamming the rear bumpers to make them illegal. this whole penalty is way to iffy. how could the car pass post inspection, then taken to R&D to find one little flaw from an on-track incident and say its now illegal.

So you're sure that the only infraction came from damage from the on-track incident? You have documentation for that? Just because RCR makes this claim it doesn't make it so.

Alexamateo

23rd September 2010, 20:06

You honestly think being 1/16 of an inch shorter makes a performance difference?

What's probably happened is that they have already exceeded the tolerance. Like when the pit road speed limit is 40 but they give you to 45, therefore 45.1 is busted with no exceptions.

For example:

The rule is probably written as "part X must be 6.5" with a tolerance of .5" so the effective range is 6.0 to 7.0".

If Nascar said they were too close last week they were running 6.05" or 6.95" so they need to move back towards the spec. The car this week was 5.99" or 7.01" so therefore they are penalized. My numbers are arbitrary, but the principle remains the same.

1/16" = .0625" so there's your 1/16"

Lee Roy

23rd September 2010, 20:23

There are some things that have no tolerance at all, such as engine size. Either you is or you ain't.

I think that they have certain tolerances for this new car (or not so new car now) that can't be deviated from.

Steve-o

23rd September 2010, 20:35

So you're sure that the only infraction came from damage from the on-track incident? You have documentation for that? Just because RCR makes this claim it doesn't make it so.

We have to remember that this team was warned about the possible infraction at Richmond. Unfortunatly, NASCAR is not 'transparent' in their disclosures. They do not issue releases that say "XX team was warned about bumper hieght, due the the fact that XX team has a different way of mounting the body that may or may not be in the spirit of the rules." It's all done very quietly, which can look less than above board. Add to that the infamous 'caution for debris', and it all looks like a controlled product.

Even if you believe in NASCAR's ability to control their product, hell, even if you beleive in "The Call", the race teams still have to show up. Obviously, there was something afoot regarding this particular car, hence the warning at Richmond. The issue would be put to rest of NASCAR simply said "We told these guys on numerous occasions that the _______ was a problem and could result in sanctions." Instead, they handle it in a very Nixon-ian manner.

Steve-o

23rd September 2010, 23:28

The rule is probably written as "part X must be 6.5" with a tolerance of .5" so the effective range is 6.0 to 7.0".

If Nascar said they were too close last week they were running 6.05" or 6.95" so they need to move back towards the spec. The car this week was 5.99" or 7.01" so therefore they are penalized. My numbers are arbitrary, but the principle remains the same.

1/16" = .0625" so there's your 1/16"

Well said!

Lee Roy

24th September 2010, 02:30

NickFalzone

24th September 2010, 03:46

Spare me the angst guys. If this were Jimmie Johnson everyone here would be talking about what a bunch of cheaters the #48 are.

Your selective outrage is more prevalent than your percieved notion of NASCAR's selective rules enforcement.

Very true. NASCAR is not perfect, no racing sanctioning body is perfect. But I do think they make a real and honest effort to keep the stock cars "fair" within the boundaries they set up. I would definitely say it is a far-fetched conspiracy theory to think that NASCAR favors the 48 or the 11 over the 33, and thus they tried to find something to penalize the 33 with for winning the first chase race. I actually think this fine, etc. does a moderate detriment to the sport, as probably a lot of casual fans liked seeing a different driver leading a highly competitive chase. Now the Chase is a bit less exciting. So I give them credit for favoring "fairness" over "entertainment value" in this case.

Alexamateo

24th September 2010, 04:08

I feel like if Nascar had their druthers, they wouldn't want to penalize Bowyer. It seems to me they have spent the last week promoting him as Nascar's Everyman in a plaid shirt and cowboy boots, the dirt tracker who made it to the big time. So I have to agree that Nascar is being fair in this case, even to their detriment.

harvick#1

24th September 2010, 08:38

Per NASCAR: "The No. 46 team was found to be in violation of Sections 12-1, 12-4-J, and 20-5.8.4.C (engine exhaust valves did not meet the minimum weight requirement) of the 2010 NASCAR Rule Book. Driver Michael McDowell and team owner Dusty Whitney were each handed a loss of 50 points. Jeremy Lafaver, crew chief for the No. 46 has to pay a fine of $50,000 plus the same suspension and probation as the two members of the RCR team.

so why only 50 points for the 46 team????

the report has come out that the rear quarter panel was less than a 1/16 of an inch off, and that the corner panel had RACE DAMAGE, so does it make legal now for drivers to smash the rear panels now because that means all the cars will fail R&D and be a 150 point fine.

but how could a car pass pre-race inspection, and post race inspection and then still be penalized. sorry but if Nascar broke down every car ever week, every team will have something illegal with their car. Nascar will never ever make a motion that they are ever wrong though, and that has tuned off millions of fans

Lee Roy

24th September 2010, 12:35

so why only 50 points for the 46 team????

Different violation maybe?

harvick#1

24th September 2010, 16:36

add alittle more fire to the mix

NASCAR won't inspect more Chase cars after races: NASCAR has considered taking all 12 Chase For The Sprint Cup cars following each race for more thorough inspections, but hasn't seen widespread issues that would require such extensive follow-up, NASCAR Vice President of Competition Robin Pemberton said Friday. NASCAR takes the race-winning car and at least one other car to its research and development center in North Carolina after every race to make sure the car and how the body sits on the frame meets NASCAR regulations. It was in that inspection at the research and the development center that it found the race-winning car of Clint Bowyer to be illegal on Wednesday, three days after he won the first Chase race at New Hampshire. The failure of his car has prompted talk that NASCAR should take more Chase cars, and possibly all 12, following each event in the Chase. "We've done several hundred cars, and if a team has an issue, problem or [is] headed in the wrong direction, we talk about it and they go fix the problem," Pemberton said prior to practice Friday at Dover International Speedway. "We haven't had anything [illegal] in almost two years and that was light sheet metal. We haven't really had a problem. & If someday it winds up being there, fine. But right now our processes work quite well. We feel like the majority of the garage has done things correctly. From time to time, we find things that are not out of the box but are to the zero-margin. It hasn't been an epidemic in any way shape or form." The equipment used to conduct the complicated frame inspections cannot easily be moved to the track and that's one of the reasons why it is done at the research center. The plates the cars sit on during the inspection weigh thousands pounds and all of the equipment would need to be recalibrated if moved off site, Pemberton said. He said there are no plans to try to do those inspections at the Chase-determining race at Richmond nor the season finale at Homestead.(Scene Daily)(9-24-2010)

MD24

25th September 2010, 22:15

I guess now we understand why the #29 is doing so well this year

Jag_Warrior

26th September 2010, 21:57

I have to say, both sides have made some compelling arguments on this issue. I'm glad I'm not on this jury. :D

MD24

30th September 2010, 03:12

http://www.nascar.com/2010/news/headlines/official/09/29/cbowyer-rcr-appeal-chase/index.html

NickFalzone

30th September 2010, 03:26

More details from http://www.jayski.com

The Appellants requested and were granted a deferral of the suspensions and fine until such time as this hearing could be convened.
The Appellants did not contest that the car measured out of specifications upon inspection.
The Appellants argued that, having received a warning about the car body of the #33 car being “too close” following the Richmond race, that it was inconceivable that they would bring a non-conforming car to New Hampshire.
They argued that the left rear frame member was actually bent upward as a result of the car being pushed towards Victory Lane by a wrecker after the post-race burnouts, which resulted in the left rear measurement “hard point” being too high. To this end, they also presented an accident reconstruction specialist to demonstrate that a wrecker might bend up the left rear strut in the trunk under certain conditions. The specialists, however, indicated that such an occurrence would strictly affect the left rear because of the match-up between the wrecker pushbar and the angle of the racecar’s rear bumper. He went on to say that the corresponding right rear measurements should not be affected, in his view, nor the frame member deformed as a team representative had alleged.
The Appellants also contested the severity and timing of the penalty.
Claims that the wrecker caused the infraction were negated by the telemetry from the car which did not show a sharp impact spike; by the fact that the rear template still fit snugly across the entire rear of the car; by a visual inspection of the rear of the car which showed nothing of note in the way of damage; and a visual review of the videotape of post race assistance tendered by the wrecker which appeared as relatively gentle pushing.
Of significance to the Panel were some additional facts which came to light during the hearing. Particularly of note were the facts that both rear hard points, left and right, were high, and that the rear of the body was offset on the frame.
The Panel found that the penalties were consistent for infractions of this magnitude.
Therefore, it is the unanimous decision of the National Stock Car Racing Appeals Panel to uphold the original penalties.
The periods of suspension shall be adjusted from the date of the hearing.
The Appellants have the right under Section 15 of the Rule Book to appeal this decision to the National Stock Car Racing Chief Appellate Officer. The Appellants submitted such a request and the fee immediately after the conclusion of the hearing.
John Capels
Lyn St James
Waddell Wilson
George Silbermann - Appellate Administrator and non-voting member.(NASCAR)(9-29-2010)

Mark in Oshawa

1st October 2010, 14:17

So basically the car was high according to the templates in Charlotte, and NOT the ones at the track. So Bowyer's car was like a hair too high even after all the silly stuff with the wrecker? Yet the template in post race at the track didn't pick it up?

Sorry, I am not buying that a hair high that is so small they cant find it at the track is going to give any team an advantage. I get the idea of no tolerance for infractions, but spare me any talk that this was a deliberate cheat. This was RCR building a car right up to the limit...and apparently misjudging it. It is obvious this isn't a blatant attempt to cheat.

I think NASCAR just gave the equivalent 12 years for a guy rumoured to have been jaywalking....

Steve-o

1st October 2010, 23:30

Sorry, I am not buying that a hair high that is so small they cant find it at the track is going to give any team an advantage. I get the idea of no tolerance for infractions, but spare me any talk that this was a deliberate cheat. This was RCR building a car right up to the limit...and apparently misjudging it. It is obvious this isn't a blatant attempt to cheat.

I think NASCAR just gave the equivalent 12 years for a guy rumoured to have been jaywalking....

I come from the camp of there's been cheatin' in NASCAR since wheels've been round. If you look at the statement from the appeal, the frame is bent up, in the area where suspension is mounted, on the right side. This would definately help a team hook up better getting off the corners, especially crucial at a track like Loudon. I think they ran the car well enough at Richmond to make sure they were in the Chase, then kicked ass at NHMS. I break it down a bit more here:

http://www.fanviewpoint.com/2010/10/childress-loses-appeal-nascar-loses-in.html

NASCAR has suffered an image problem because they don't air grievances in the court of public opinion. Many times they are wrong (cautions for debris). I think this time, they were correct.

Mark in Oshawa

2nd October 2010, 04:35

I come from the camp of there's been cheatin' in NASCAR since wheels've been round. If you look at the statement from the appeal, the frame is bent up, in the area where suspension is mounted, on the right side. This would definately help a team hook up better getting off the corners, especially crucial at a track like Loudon. I think they ran the car well enough at Richmond to make sure they were in the Chase, then kicked ass at NHMS. I break it down a bit more here:

http://www.fanviewpoint.com/2010/10/childress-loses-appeal-nascar-loses-in.html

NASCAR has suffered an image problem because they don't air grievances in the court of public opinion. Many times they are wrong (cautions for debris). I think this time, they were correct.

Ok, I will say two things to your points. One, if one is to suppose Richard Childress and company are stupid, why did they build sort of a cheater to get into the chase, and then ramp it up for NHIS KNOWING FULL WELL NASCAR WARNED THEM?? I don't think Richard and the boys are that dumb.

Second, if it is just bodywork, then it is a marginal advantage if at all when you consider they couldn't measure it at the track. However, if it is a pickup point for the suspension or something underneath, then ok, I completely buy your point that NASCAR had no choice.

The problem I still have is NASCAR never really is completely open with the process or really going into any great explaination of the cheat....it is left to the media to figure it all out and pass it on to us fans.

I just find it a little much they cannot find the car failing tech at the track and have to drag it to Charlotte's test lab where they eventually find the unfair advantage....

I am of the mind that on a lot of stuff, if it isn't apparent at the track with the inspection they give it there, they really are nit picking...

Steve-o

2nd October 2010, 14:43

Ok, I will say two things to your points. One, if one is to suppose Richard Childress and company are stupid, why did they build sort of a cheater to get into the chase, and then ramp it up for NHIS KNOWING FULL WELL NASCAR WARNED THEM?? I don't think Richard and the boys are that dumb.

Second, if it is just bodywork, then it is a marginal advantage if at all when you consider they couldn't measure it at the track. However, if it is a pickup point for the suspension or something underneath, then ok, I completely buy your point that NASCAR had no choice.

The problem I still have is NASCAR never really is completely open with the process or really going into any great explaination of the cheat....it is left to the media to figure it all out and pass it on to us fans.

I just find it a little much they cannot find the car failing tech at the track and have to drag it to Charlotte's test lab where they eventually find the unfair advantage....

I am of the mind that on a lot of stuff, if it isn't apparent at the track with the inspection they give it there, they really are nit picking...

I agree NASCAR isn't open with the process, and THAT is really the issue. But if you go read the story on my link, you'll see what they are talking about the frame is too high, not sheet metal. They knew it was, warned RCR that if they didn't fix it, they (NASCAR inspectors) would crawl up in thier backsides and find it. Then he went out and won. So now NASCAR takes the car and goes over it with a fine tooth comb.

NASCAR doesn't play the 'court of public opinion' game. Never has. If they said "look, the frame is too high, causing this car to have more wedge and therefore hook up better in the corner. We told them on more than one occasion that if we had an opportunity to REALLY inspect this car we were going to. RCR has been warned and didn't heed our warnings, now they get to suffer the consequences", they might have fans understand the why's and how's of how things work in the politics of NASCAR.

I don't think RCR is dumb. Far from it. I think they thought they could get away with it. A 1/16 of an inch is a ton at that particular place in the car. I think they thought they had found a place to craft an advantage not easily found by track inspectors. I think they thought they could explain it away with "racing incidents", or in this case, a convenient wrecker push.

Why would Denny Hamlin run his mouth @ Dover? Because they knew they got jobbed?? Why would Kevin Harvick go play tough guy? To send a message to keep it quiet, keep it in the garage? Maybe? THIS is what makes NASCAR racing interesting, IMO. The races themselves, on their own, are not nearly as intriguing until you add in this extra layer of 'off track' issues.

Are they (NASCAR) nit picking? Yeah, sure. But RCR was warned that it was coming.

Mark in Oshawa

3rd October 2010, 08:09

I agree NASCAR isn't open with the process, and THAT is really the issue. But if you go read the story on my link, you'll see what they are talking about the frame is too high, not sheet metal. They knew it was, warned RCR that if they didn't fix it, they (NASCAR inspectors) would crawl up in thier backsides and find it. Then he went out and won. So now NASCAR takes the car and goes over it with a fine tooth comb.

NASCAR doesn't play the 'court of public opinion' game. Never has. If they said "look, the frame is too high, causing this car to have more wedge and therefore hook up better in the corner. We told them on more than one occasion that if we had an opportunity to REALLY inspect this car we were going to. RCR has been warned and didn't heed our warnings, now they get to suffer the consequences", they might have fans understand the why's and how's of how things work in the politics of NASCAR.

I don't think RCR is dumb. Far from it. I think they thought they could get away with it. A 1/16 of an inch is a ton at that particular place in the car. I think they thought they had found a place to craft an advantage not easily found by track inspectors. I think they thought they could explain it away with "racing incidents", or in this case, a convenient wrecker push.

Why would Denny Hamlin run his mouth @ Dover? Because they knew they got jobbed?? Why would Kevin Harvick go play tough guy? To send a message to keep it quiet, keep it in the garage? Maybe? THIS is what makes NASCAR racing interesting, IMO. The races themselves, on their own, are not nearly as intriguing until you add in this extra layer of 'off track' issues.

Are they (NASCAR) nit picking? Yeah, sure. But RCR was warned that it was coming.
True enough man...excellent post....