Engine count?

[Shifter]

I've been trying to find an updated list of each driver and the # of engines used per the regulations and am having no luck. Can anyone find/post this info? I believe it is a MAJOR factor in this championship, and it would be nice to be able to keep track of this statistic.

[janneppi]

There was mention of some drivers's engine count on a Finnish news site.
Alonso 8
Massa 8
Button 7
Hamilton 7
Vettel 7
Webber 6

[i_max2k2]

Nice some grid penalties coming pretty soon, I'm glad webber has 2 engines to go, Go Mark!

[Big Ben]

Nice some grid penalties coming pretty soon, I'm glad webber has 2 engines to go, Go Mark!

as far as I know it doesn´t mean that much (this count) since teams can use them whenever they see it fit so they can change them just to use them in more even way according to the specs of the track.... or maybe I'm wrong

[Jag_Warrior]

as far as I know it doesn´t mean that much (this count) since teams can use them whenever they see it fit so they can change them just to use them in more even way according to the specs of the track.... or maybe I'm wrong

No, you're correct. As an example, a team could come to its last engine and then go back and use engine #4 again for the next race. Until they use an extra engine, there would be no penalty.

[Shifter]

It is true that teams can bolt a used engine back in, but an accurate count gives us some indication of where a team stands. I expect to see some blown engines/penalties coming into play with a huge effect on the championship. Webber having 2 engines with no mileage is a boost to his WDC chances.

[ioan]

They sure can use them again, however once built up a F1 engine needs to be used every now and then otherwise it will brake after few laps if left to sit for several months.

Ferrari sure look to be in a rather bad situation with 5 races to go.

[inimitablestoo]

And for what it's worth (since he's not in title contention) Pedro de la Rosa is already on number 9 out of 8. Note to Sauber: replacing him with Nick Heidfeld won't work, the engines go with the car rather than the driver. Hopefully they realise this :)

[CNR]

There was mention of some drivers's engine count on a Finnish news site.
Alonso 8
Massa 8
Button 7
Hamilton 7
Vettel 7
Webber 6

Pedro de la Rosa 9
Q: if Heidfeld takes over the car will the engine count reset ?

[Roamy]

They sure can use them again, however once built up a F1 engine needs to be used every now and then otherwise it will brake after few laps if left to sit for several months.

Ferrari sure look to be in a rather bad situation with 5 races to go.

WOW now you are a engine guy too. You multi talented

[Mark]

No need to go looking on news sites, the race technical report is right there on the FIA website!
http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/f1_media/Documents/ita-race-report.pdf


01 McLaren Mercedes Jenson Button 7
02 McLaren Mercedes Lewis Hamilton 7
03 Mercedes Benz Michael Schumacher 7
04 Mercedes Benz Nico Rosberg 7
05 RBR Renault Sebastian Vettel 7
06 RBR Renault Mark Webber 6
07 Ferrari Felipe Massa 8
08 Ferrari Fernando Alonso 8
09 Williams Cosworth Rubens Barrichello 6
10 Williams Cosworth Nico Hülkenberg 7
11 Renault Robert Kubica 6
12 Renault Vitaly Pertrov 6
14 Force India Mercedes Adrian Sutil 7
15 Force India Mercedes Vitantonio Liuzzi 7
16 STR Ferrari Sébastien Buemi 7
17 STR Ferrari Jaime Alguersuari 7
18 Lotus Cosworth Jarno Trulli 7
19 Lotus Cosworth Heikki Kovalainen 7
20 HRT Cosworth Sakon Yamamoto 7
21 HRT Cosworth Bruno Senna 7
22 BMW Sauber Ferrari Pedro De La Rosa 9
23 BMW Sauber Ferrari Kamui Kobayashi 7
24 Virgin Cosworth Timo Glock 7
25 Virgin Cosworth Lucas Di Grassi 7


(Takes a little putting together as typically FIA they give you the pre-race numbers and then who's used new engines and no post race numbers)

[Mark]

Renault are best places with two fresh engines for the remainder of the year. The rest of the teams have a single fresh engine for the remaining 5 races.
Ferrari are in the worst position as they've used their allowance of new engines now and only have used engines to choose from.

Also interestingly Webber has an engine in hand over Vettel.

[Big Ben]

I've seen a table somewhere on this forum on another thread where you could actually see which engine they used at each race but can't find it anymore. That would give us a much clearer image of how things stand... I think. All teams have only 8 engines per car so they all have to use some engines for 2 and some for 3 races... so one team that has used 7 or 8 engines and all of them are still good is in a better situation than one which has used 6 and all of them are broken... probably.

[Mia 01]

They sure can use them again, however once built up a F1 engine needs to be used every now and then otherwise it will brake after few laps if left to sit for several months.

Ferrari sure look to be in a rather bad situation with 5 races to go.

I´ve reading this to. They can´t use an engine they have putted to rest to far back, thoose engines are on the edge.

[Mark]

They sure can use them again, however once built up a F1 engine needs to be used every now and then otherwise it will brake after few laps if left to sit for several months.

Ferrari sure look to be in a rather bad situation with 5 races to go.

How far ahead are engines built? Is it the case that they have to be machined and then used within a certain time, or does the use of an engine introduce contaniments into it which start a degradation process?

A lot of teams will also be running with 'old' engines in free practice sessions. When do you have to bolt in the engine you are going to use for the race? Before Q1?

[CNR]

I've seen a table somewhere on this forum on another thread where you could actually see which engine they used at each race but can't find it anymore. That would give us a much clearer image of how things stand... I think. All teams have only 8 engines per car so they all have to use some engines for 2 and some for 3 races... so one team that has used 7 or 8 engines and all of them are still good is in a better situation than one which has used 6 and all of them are broken... probably.

this may be the link to the table

http://www.vivaf1.com/engine.php






Engine <>Cars <><Failures
Cosworth 8 21.8% Two failures from 14 races (2 in 112)



Ferrari 6 78.3% Seven failures from 14 races (7 in 84)



Mercedes 6 33.6% Three failures from 14 races (3 in 84)


Renault 4 23.6% Two failures from 14 races (2 in 56)



*Engine manufacturer comparison covers engine failures throughout the entire race weekend.

[jens]

Pedro de la Rosa 9
Q: if Heidfeld takes over the car will the engine count reset ?

No, he will continue with DLR's engine count. Otherwise teams could race with a more powerful yet less reliable engine and keep changing drivers in the season without penalty.

[Mark]

Engines reliability these days is extraordinary compared to what it used to be. A recently as the mid-90's you'd usually have at least one car per race where the engine failed completely.

The "8 engines per season" rule is much better than the old "The engine must last 2 races" rule.

[Big Ben]

thanks thunderbolt... that's the one.

Seeing this chart I'd say that Ferrari is not in such a bad situation after all having 3 engines with just one race each and one with 2... they seem to be covered... but then again you never know when one might just blow up in the middle of the race and show us just how limited statistics are...

McLaren seem to be covered pretty well but I don't think it's such a big advantage to have enough engines for 10 more races when there are just 5 left... you can't use 2 per race and if one would give up in the middle of one race it will be just the same.

I'd say that both Ferrari and McLaren have proven to have very reliable engines so far, most of them being used for 3 races without problem... while RBR changed their renault engine more frequently for whatever reason... which could mean nothing in the end. However they proved to have the most unreliable car of the main contenders.

In conclusion I'd say that I'm not concerned for neither of the top 3 teams :p :

[ShiftingGears]

How far ahead are engines built? Is it the case that they have to be machined and then used within a certain time, or does the use of an engine introduce contaniments into it which start a degradation process?

I'm pretty sure it only starts being significant once its been through its operation, assuming its in ideal storage conditions. Comparable to a set of tyres, I suppose.

[Retro Formula 1]

They sure can use them again, however once built up a F1 engine needs to be used every now and then otherwise it will brake after few laps if left to sit for several months.

Ferrari sure look to be in a rather bad situation with 5 races to go.

I wasn't aware of this. Can you provide some more information please.

Obviously F1 engines are machined to extremely high tolerances and are semi seized when cold requiring warming of the block and oil before starting.

With race cars, I choose to start them on a regular basis mainly to avoid ring sticking and ensure no moisture collects but the tolerances are far less critical than a F1 car. I would have thought it better to heat the engines to free them up and slowly turn over without starting would provide all necessary maintenance cycles.

Now, Ferrari had some issues earlier in the season but these were cured. Problem is, if the early engines weren't blown, they would have been stressed more than the latter ones. If I were Ferrari, I would prefer to use the latter units a bit more than any of the early ones.

[jonny hurlock]

Engines reliability these days is extraordinary compared to what it used to be. A recently as the mid-90's you'd usually have at least one car per race where the engine failed completely.

The "8 engines per season" rule is much better than the old "The engine must last 2 races" rule.

the rule works better, got more choice. Seen this in a book where Gerhard Berger in 1986 (Benetton days), he use 21 engines in 16 races (BMW 1.5 litre 4 cylinder Turbo engine), what a difference from todays rules

[i_max2k2]

I dont think this is insignificant, I think this count does matter a lot, if they dint think they would need a new engine they would not have used it. I'm sure having 2 unused engines in hands puts a driver to have better chances with engine reliability than ones who are on 8 already. Ferrari definitely has a uphill task. We'll see in the next few races if a team wants to try their luck or take the grid penalty.

[ioan]

WOW now you are a engine guy too. You multi talented

I obviously know a lot more than you. :p
Just google a bit about modern F1 engines, you will certainly learn a lot.

[ioan]

I wasn't aware of this. Can you provide some more information please.

Obviously F1 engines are machined to extremely high tolerances and are semi seized when cold requiring warming of the block and oil before starting.


It has been mentioned by race engineers after Alonso blew a couple of engines at the beginning of the year, and people were counting that he might race again the engine they changed in Bahrain under parc ferme. It was explained that the rules only allow engines changed under parc ferme conditions to be used for race in the very last race of the year, however the engineers said that the engine will have to be used in FPs otherwise it will become unusable within a couple of months.

I'll see if I can find the articles somewhere.

[Retro Formula 1]

Thanks, I would appreciate it.

[Robinho]

those who are on their 8th engine are not necesarily in a bad position, if the other 7 are still in order and have some decent mileage left in them.

If you've grenaded 3 or 4 and only have 3 or 4 semi or well used engines left then the season end is going to be tricky. inevitabley people will have to run less mileage or less revs in practice and may be disadvantaged in set up time, or run the risk of dmagaed engines or reduced power in races, this could swing the championship

[Sleeper]

those who are on their 8th engine are not necesarily in a bad position, if the other 7 are still in order and have some decent mileage left in them.

If you've grenaded 3 or 4 and only have 3 or 4 semi or well used engines left then the season end is going to be tricky. inevitabley people will have to run less mileage or less revs in practice and may be disadvantaged in set up time, or run the risk of dmagaed engines or reduced power in races, this could swing the championship

At this point of the season the teams will be using only the very high milage engines for practice and trying to save the newer ones just for fp3, qualy and the race.

In Ferrari's case they might even run old engines a small way past their accepted milage maximum (I believe this worked for Red Bull on Vettels car at the end of last year).

[Sleeper]

the rule works better, got more choice. Seen this in a book where Gerhard Berger in 1986 (Benetton days), he use 21 engines in 16 races (BMW 1.5 litre 4 cylinder Turbo engine), what a difference from todays rules

Thats nothing, BMW got through something like 150 engines at Williams in 2000 alone, and most of them blew up.

EDIT: I might actually have that quote of Sir Frank's wrong, it might have been 150 engine failures in 2000 alone, meaning they made a lot more than that during the season.

[Mark]

Thats nothing, BMW got through something like 150 engines at Williams in 2000 alone, and most of them blew up.

EDIT: I might actually have that quote of Sir Frank's wrong, it might have been 150 engine failures in 2000 alone, meaning they made a lot more than that during the season.

Wow, really? 150 engines? That sort of thing must make a massive difference to cost when you consider that each team is only allowed to use a total of 16 engines in a season and theres no in season testing to use them up either. I suppose you'd want a few more than that for pre-season testing and for dyno testing etc so I guess each team will have around 25 engines per year?

[Sleeper]

Wow, really? 150 engines? That sort of thing must make a massive difference to cost when you consider that each team is only allowed to use a total of 16 engines in a season and theres no in season testing to use them up either. I suppose you'd want a few more than that for pre-season testing and for dyno testing etc so I guess each team will have around 25 engines per year?
Well back then it was a case of 1 engine in the race, 1 for qualy and 1 for the practice sessions, so for 2 drivers over a 17 race season thats 102 engines for race weekends alone, plus all the testing sessions, and BMW's first V10 wasnt very reliable so 150 is easy to reach. The manufacturers must have saved an absolute bundle on production costs when the 2 race engine rule was brought in. Its also easy to see why many of them werent too willing to supply a customer team, the strain on resources that would have ment!

[Mark]

Well back then it was a case of 1 engine in the race, 1 for qualy and 1 for the practice sessions, so for 2 drivers over a 17 race season thats 102 engines for race weekends alone, plus all the testing sessions, and BMW's first V10 wasnt very reliable so 150 is easy to reach. The manufacturers must have saved an absolute bundle on production costs when the 2 race engine rule was brought in. Its also easy to see why many of them werent too willing to supply a customer team, the strain on resources that would have ment!

Yes! It makes it even more extraordinary that the likes of Renault could not only supply two teams in 1995-7 but two teams challenging for the championship too. Although that probably explains why they got out of F1 shortly afterwards!

[Sleeper]

Yes! It makes it even more extraordinary that the likes of Renault could not only supply two teams in 1995-7 but two teams challenging for the championship too. Although that probably explains why they got out of F1 shortly afterwards!

Its even more surprising when you think Supertec supplied 3 teams with that Renault engine in 99!

Mind you, how many of those engines got rebuilt and re-used?