What would a modern day Formula 5000 series look like?

[Otto-Matic]

The more I read about Formula 5000, the more facinated I am with it. I was curious about what other people's thoughts are about this old series. I was born well after it died out so all i have to read and watch is nostalgia. But I follow the ISMA Super Modified series here in New England and watching that series got me thinking: a regional series with open wheel cars that produce 800hp and build their own engines. Their yearly budget is peabuts compared to IndyCar. If we were to hypothetically creatre a new open wheel series, from scrtatch, with cost control so aggressive that regional drivers ("weekend warriors" who actually have legit talent) could race at least a partial schedual, what formulas would peopel like to see? i myself would love to see it strickly production or crate engines. both Turbos and NA (but not sure how to keep them semi-equal in performance). I dont have any technical experience so hopefully some of you can educate me :p

[SUBARUTEAM]

formular 5000 has a big series here in NZ. link attached.

http://www.f5000.co.nz/

[Chris R]

I suspect a modern F5000 car would be pretty much what we have today - because when the IRL started it was pretty much an interpretation of F-5000 - open wheel car with big stock block (albeit one with 4 cam and valves) and those first true IRL cars evolved into today's Indycar..... All said and done, the IRL was pretty much the implementation of the vision USAC had to pretty much switch Indycars to F-5000 type formula before CART came into being and pushed the Cosworth.....

[Otto-Matic]

formular 5000 has a big series here in NZ. link attached.

http://www.f5000.co.nz/

thank you for posting the site :) I've been reading throu the various pages, very interesting! sounds like a lot of fun, too bad I live on the other side of the world. it'd be great to go see one of these races.

[Otto-Matic]

I suspect a modern F5000 car would be pretty much what we have today - because when the IRL started it was pretty much an interpretation of F-5000 - open wheel car with big stock block (albeit one with 4 cam and valves) and those first true IRL cars evolved into today's Indycar..... All said and done, the IRL was pretty much the implementation of the vision USAC had to pretty much switch Indycars to F-5000 type formula before CART came into being and pushed the Cosworth.....

is there such a thing as stock block/production based Turbo engines? it seems like all the series that use stock block's run NA.

[anthonyvop]

I think it would look something similar to this.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2452/3786107256_b6621b6fe1.jpg
http://www.mediagame.eu/images/image/as-roma-superleague-formula.jpg
http://www.anderlecht-online.be/members/mich/racing4-groot.jpg

Superleague Formula. Large engines 4.2 litre V12s. Not as big as a Stock block V-8 but pretty big.

Notice the large radiator intakes to cool the motor.

[Pat Wiatrowski]

I think it would look something similar to this.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2452/3786107256_b6621b6fe1.jpg
http://www.mediagame.eu/images/image/as-roma-superleague-formula.jpg
http://www.anderlecht-online.be/members/mich/racing4-groot.jpg

Superleague Formula. Large engines 4.2 litre V12s. Not as big as a Stock block V-8 but pretty big.

Notice the large radiator intakes to cool the motor.

Beautiful Racing Cars!

[Otto-Matic]

Those are beautifull cars./anthony, any idea how much the Superleague engine lease is? Curious to see home much $$$ compared to Indycar.

[anthonyvop]

Want see the IRL faithful and Dallara/Honda lovers freak?

The cars are built by Panoz Auto Development under the Élan Motorsport Technologies banner and officially named the Panoz DP09. They are powered by 750 bhp, 4.2 litre, V12 engines designed by US-owned Menard Competition Technologies.

So an AMERICAN CAR with an AMERICAN engine.

And their website ROCKS.

[Civic]

I remember when the first pics of the DP01s were released they had pics of the Superleague tubs. At the time they were said to be for a series that would be revealed at a later date.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Tony....there would be a good Indycar...but alas, they didn't go that direction. That said, I like the current idea of a common tub with different bits made available....just not sure on how well all the details are going to shake out.

As for the concept of a stock block v8 Indycar like the old f5000, the AIS series that Tempero ran was pretty much a thin field effort and their biggest race for a few years was in Halifax NS where anything would do because they are so far away from the mainstream, they make any event a major one. I was there in 91 or 92(memory is failing) and seeing the side of Citadel Hill wall to wall with people for a 14 car AIS race was something..but the support events kept them all entertained. 30 MASCAR late models, (yes MASCAR, don't ask) and 50 or so touring cars, not to mention a 16 year old Greg Moore in his FF all the way from BC made for a pretty memorable weekend...

Aaah Memories...

as for the AIS, great idea in theory, never panned out. Basically f5000 style racing with old CART cars with stock blocks....fun to listen to though...

[nigelred5]

is there such a thing as stock block/production based Turbo engines? it seems like all the series that use stock block's run NA.

Sure, there are several engines that are stock-block that can be run with turbos, just none in major open wheel racing at this time. Now if you are talking about a big ol american V8 lump a-la F 5000, that's a different story.

That's the whole idea behind the GRE. Subaru, VW, Nissan all make very large quantities of production turbocharged engines, many of which actually DO make it into racing cars.

I would have loved to have seen Indycar adopt the Panoz, even if Indycar chose to stay with an atmospheric motor.

[shazbot]

Want see the IRL faithful and Dallara/Honda lovers freak?

The cars are built by Panoz Auto Development under the Élan Motorsport Technologies banner and officially named the Panoz DP09. They are powered by 750 bhp, 4.2 litre, V12 engines designed by US-owned Menard Competition Technologies.

So an AMERICAN CAR with an AMERICAN engine.

And their website ROCKS.

The cars are built by Elan Motorsports and are badged/sold as a Panoz. Panoz Auto Developments (PAD) is actually the road car side of things. The DP09 is actually designed around the DP01 Champ Car tub to reduce tooling costs (actually it probably would have been cheaper to start from scratch, but that's another story).

[anthonyvop]

The DP09 is actually designed around the DP01 Champ Car tub to reduce tooling costs (actually it probably would have been cheaper to start from scratch, but that's another story).

Actually none of the DP09 is interchangeable with the DP01 2 very different machines.

[shazbot]

Actually none of the DP09 is interchangeable with the DP01 2 very different machines.

Yes, perhaps I should clarify. The DP09 tub design was based on the DP01 with a few design changes. The foward chassis top is idetical to the DP01, it just has cladding bonded on to blend with the nose. The chassis lower is also very similar (I think it is made in the same/similar mold with loose tools added to change the lower keel area shape) with many of the Champ Car inserts. The front suspension is interchangeable with the Champ Car - it just has carbon cladding on the wisbones. Nose, side pods, floor, diffuser etc are all new. The front wing mainplane is also a carry over from the Champ Car in that it was an aero developmant part that didn't work with the Champ underbody. Most of the design work was completed on an all new tub for this formula (including alot of the wind tunnel model) before the Elan top brass decided to cut costs and base the car on the DP01 as much as possible. Needless to say this rendered the design and model work obsolete over night and generated alot more work!

[shazbot]

Actually none of the DP09 is interchangeable with the DP01 2 very different machines.

Actually the lower tub is the same as the DP01, save for a few inserts, but as it's bonded to the top half then yes, I guess it's not interchangeable! Definately not two different machines though.

[Hoop-98]

I guess adding a much bigger and heavier engine slowed the car down a lot. I see it is 16 seconds off F1 at Silverstone (3.194 config 1:34.5 - 1:18.1) and at Assen it was 6 seconds off the CC Lola time.

Adding 80-100 pounds to the rear of a chassis is the problem with a F5000 type approach. And while the MCT engine is not production, still it weighs around 310 pounds and quite a bit longer than the cossie.

rh

[shazbot]

Plus the MCT motor is not that powerfull either. The car actually produces remarkably similar TDF numbers to the Champ Car but not quite as efficient. It has no shaped underbody like the Champ Car and more of an F1 style diffuser. In fact the original aero aim of the car was to keep pretty close to F1 regs, but as time went on in wind tunnel development certain 'cheats' were employed to bring up the numbers as tunnel testing was not considered important by the then CEO. This cars aero development was done at a time when Elan were starting to feel the pinch and had lost the head of aero to Renault F1. One of the last gasp grabs at downforce came from moving the rear wing upper elements as far up and back in the RWEP as possible. There's a little aero feature in front of the sidepod that was a late addition to the car much to the consternation of the production manager at Elan but did, I think push the TDF number up to if not slightly over that of the DP01. The wind tunnel model is still on display at Elan and is a work of art. Elan really did have great potential with ex F1 staff in the aero dept and model shop, neither of which exist any more. A pity is was squandered, but that's another story!

[DBell]

Hoop, How much difference is there in tire grip between an F1 tire and tires used by other formula series like IndyCar and Superleague? Is there much of a difference?

[Hoop-98]

Hoop, How much difference is there in tire grip between an F1 tire and tires used by other formula series like IndyCar and Superleague? Is there much of a difference?

It is impossible for me to say. When I reverse engineer the tire mu (CoF) they all come out pretty close.

rh