It's official! There is no God.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

According to leading physicist Stephen Hawking.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11161493

"Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing.

"Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist.

"It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the universe going."

[Bob Riebe]

According to leading physicist Stephen Hawking.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11161493

"Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing.

"Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist.

"It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the universe going."ROFLMAO

[Brown, Jon Brow]

ROFLMAO

:rotflmao:

[markabilly]

so who was responsible for the creation of spontaneous creation?]

i think therefore i think, maybe or maybe not

[Drew]

It's not going to make a slight bit of difference. People will believe what they want to (or are brainwashed to) with or without proof.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

It's not going to make a slight bit of difference. People will believe what they want to (or are brainwashed to) with or without proof.

Exactly. Hawkings says the laws of physics create everything, but then the creationists then will say, 'so who created the laws of physics?'

The creationists get stumped though when you ask them who created the creator.

[Bob Riebe]

Exactly. Hawkings says the laws of physics create everything, but then the creationists then will say, 'so who created the laws of physics?'

The creationists get stumped though when you ask them who created the creator.No, unless they are chasing some Klingon dogma, He is simply stated to have always been; whereas, Hawkings has now seem to have refuted the old standard that, One cannot get blood out of a turnip.
If something can come from nothing, then blood can come out of a turnip!

[Brown, Jon Brow]

No, unless they are chasing some Klingon dogma, He is simply stated to have always been; whereas, Hawkings has now seem to have refuted the old standard that, One cannot get blood out of a turnip.
If something can come from nothing, then blood can come out of a turnip!

Turnips have evolved not to have blood in them.

[Bob Riebe]

Turnips have evolved not to have blood in them.Not if something can come from nothing.

[Drew]

No, unless they are chasing some Klingon dogma, He is simply stated to have always been; whereas, Hawkings has now seem to have refuted the old standard that, One cannot get blood out of a turnip.
If something can come from nothing, then blood can come out of a turnip!

I'm not sure I understand 100% what you're trying to say, but... Are you saying that your god has always been around? so our ancestors hundreds of thousands of years ago in Africa were praying to god? and that because Stephen Hawking lives in the present and came about after god, he is wrong because god was there first? so, how did god come about? like blood out of a turnip?

[Bob Riebe]

I'm not sure I understand 100% what you're trying to say, but... Are you saying that your god has always been around? so our ancestors hundreds of thousands of years ago in Africa were praying to god? and that because Stephen Hawking lives in the present and came about after god, he is wrong because god was there first? so, how did god come about? like blood out of a turnip?Nope simply always was, is and shall be.

[Easy Drifter]

These puny humans that deny I exist!

[Mark]

According to leading physicist Stephen Hawking.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11161493

"Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing.

"Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist.

"It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the universe going."

I'm no physicist but I don't exactly follow his logic here. We exist therefore there is no god? Personally I think he's right but I don't follow his working...

[Cooper_S]

People can say (and believe) whatever they like... and usually do.

I have yet to read anything put forward by one side of the argument that has persuaded or dissuaded the other side from their conviction...

The only way to know for certain is in death... let me know how you get on with that one.

[Robinho]

how much simpler would the world be if people believed Hawking, or at least lived according to what the can see and feel rather than what someone has told them is something they can't see or feel but is definatley there so stay in line, instead of a few thousand year old book of fairy tales, or the opposing few thousand year old book of fairy tales, or the bits of the few thousand year old fairy tales that come from the same book.

[markabilly]

WHO WHAT HOW and WHY WAS THIS LAW SUCH AS GRAVITY CREATED?

How did God begin? How was he created?

If God created the universe, what who created God?
If God did not create the universe, did the universe create God?

WHY?

What existed before the universe began?

If one beleives in the big bang theory, where did this piece of matter that exploded to create the universe, how and why was it created--where did this "law" or gravity come from that created it?

If parallel universes exist, how many parallel universes exist? Two three or infinite?

Is reality actually an illusion, or is illusion actually the reality?

The easier questions to speculatively answer are what, where, how--- but the unanswerable is the WHY

for example, it takes some 65,000 complex molecules (many of which are referred to as"proteins" DNA and RNA)to operate a single human cell....maybe more....what and how are easy, the unanswerable is why?

It would seem that man-woman -kind created God to explain and understand the infinite...although many created god in their own image to justify their actions, be those actions hypocritical or "true to the faith".

And people such as Hawkins created these "laws" to explain that which they can not otherwise explain, and that is just another way of creating God to explain that which they can not otherwise explain--just substitute "law" for "god" or "god" for "law"---the religion of god versuses the religion of science.......

Which leads to the ultimate three questions:

(1)How can one who is finite, understand that which is infinite, be it God or be it the universe/universes?

(2)Why does any of this exist?

(3) Finally, why am I always so right, and the rest of you always so wrong?

[Easy Drifter]

Markabilly------ Because!!!!!!!!!!!
See, it is simple my child.

[00steven]

WHO WHAT HOW and WHY WAS THIS LAW SUCH AS GRAVITY CREATED?

How did God begin? How was he created?

If God created the universe, what who created God?
If God did not create the universe, did the universe create God?

WHY?

What existed before the universe began?

If one beleives in the big bang theory, where did this piece of matter that exploded to create the universe, how and why was it created--where did this "law" or gravity come from that created it?

If parallel universes exist, how many parallel universes exist? Two three or infinite?

Is reality actually an illusion, or is illusion actually the reality?

The easier questions to speculatively answer are what, where, how--- but the unanswerable is the WHY

for example, it takes some 65,000 complex molecules (many of which are referred to as"proteins" DNA and RNA)to operate a single human cell....maybe more....what and how are easy, the unanswerable is why?

It would seem that man-woman -kind created God to explain and understand the infinite...although many created god in their own image to justify their actions, be those actions hypocritical or "true to the faith".

And people such as Hawkins created these "laws" to explain that which they can not otherwise explain, and that is just another way of creating God to explain that which they can not otherwise explain--just substitute "law" for "god" or "god" for "law"---the religion of god versuses the religion of science.......

Which leads to the ultimate three questions:

(1)How can one who is finite, understand that which is infinite, be it God or be it the universe/universes?

(2)Why does any of this exist?

(3) Finally, why am I always so right, and the rest of you always so wrong?

Your gonna give yourself a stomach ache. :)

I believe and serve God, but you should not and cannot throw your beliefs on other people. They will believe what they want to believe.

[markabilly]

Markabilly------ Because!!!!!!!!!!!
See, it is simple my child.


as my children say, "Because WHAT, POP!!?"



Your gonna give yourself a stomach ache. :)

I believe and serve God, but you should not and cannot throw your beliefs on other people. They will believe what they want to believe.

Thanks, this must be the answer to the question number 3 that i asked as to why I am right and others wrong:
They are wrong because they want to be......

[Easy Drifter]

Because I say so!!!!!!!!!!

[markabilly]

Because I say so!!!!!!!!!!
But pop, you always say that.

[Easy Drifter]

See post #12.

[markabilly]

See post #12.
you are wrong and I am right, again.
careful or I will wake up and you will be gone :D

[Drew]

Because I say so!!!!!!!!!!

Yup, that's pretty much Bob Riebe's argument!

[donKey jote]

god(s) are a product of human evolution.

a donkey doesn't need any :)

[ZEROX]

LOL .
Different people , different believes .

[odykas]

God is real, unless declared integer :D :laugh:

[Bob Riebe]

Yup, that's pretty much Bob Riebe's argument!

Prove that point, if you have one,

[Roamy]

God is real, unless declared integer :D :laugh:

But I know Oracle :p :

[Roamy]

I find it funny - The Euros don't believe in God but give their countries away to the Muslims. Maybe they need a few stoning's to knock some sense into them

[Woodeye]

And of course the american god is the one and the correct one which we all should believe in, right? Not the african, european, asian gods that exist as well? The christian god is the one to choose from the portfolio of gods and not for example Tapio, the ancient finnish god of trees and forest?

I know many people do believe in god only because it's easy. It's easy to justify that good and bad things happen because of god. And it's also nice to believe that after death you'll go to heaven.

It's really hard to accept the fact that human is just a biological creature that will just die and disappear. Just like fish, or leaf or any other biolocial creature.

[markabilly]

It's really hard to accept the fact that human is just a biological creature that will just die and disappear. Just like fish, or leaf or any other biolocial creature.
well, maybe you need to start singing, per the song, "I know there is no heaven, but I pray there is no hell....." :eek:

[Hondo]

According to leading physicist Stephen Hawking.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11161493

"Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing.

"Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist.

"It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the universe going."

I did not find the part where Hawking said there was no God. I did find the part where Hawking said God was not necessary to begin the formation of a universe.

Is the "There is no God" merely your personal spin on the story?

[Captain VXR]

Its amazing how so many of the world's top scientists and inventors dont believe in a God compared to the general population!!!
Riebe - who designed the designer?

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I did not find the part where Hawking said there was no God. I did find the part where Hawking said God was not necessary to begin the formation of a universe.

Is the "There is no God" merely your personal spin on the story?

You'd never get a job in journalism! :p

[F1boat]

It's not going to make a slight bit of difference. People will believe what they want to (or are brainwashed to) with or without proof.

I agree. However, it is necessary not to enforce these beliefs to other people and never ever to hurt people, or even living beings, because of these beliefs.

[glauistean]

so who was responsible for the creation of spontaneous creation?]

i think therefore i think, maybe or maybe not

What you are trying to say is "I think, therefore I am".

[glauistean]

People can say (and believe) whatever they like... and usually do.

I have yet to read anything put forward by one side of the argument that has persuaded or dissuaded the other side from their conviction...

The only way to know for certain is in death... let me know how you get on with that one.

Listen to the former child actor who claims the earth is 5,000 years old. He believes in the Ark and uses the eye as an example of evolution using the camera as an example. Playing to the lowest common denominator to prove his opoint. To even suggest that the eye of a human is equatable to that of a camera is insane.Tht also goes for the 5,000 year deal and the Ark.

[Bob Riebe]

Its amazing how so many of the world's top scientists and inventors dont believe in a God compared to the general population!!!
Riebe - who designed the designer?
Narcissism or simply arrogance. It is the old if I cannot do it, no one else can, line of thought.
Another term-- god wannabes.

Eternal has no beginning or end cv.
For anyone to try to create the one, one wants it to be, is asinine at best and childish at worst.

[Rollo]

Riebe - who designed the designer?

Infinity is a perfectly normal mathematical and provable idea.
A God who is infinite or eternal (being the description of an infinite amount of time), is both mathematically and logically in no need of a beginning or end, and by logical extension, always was, is and will be.

There is no need for a designer, if God is infinite; ergo no-one designed the designer.

[F1boat]

Infinity is a perfectly normal mathematical and provable idea.
A God who is infinite or eternal (being the description of an infinite amount of time), is both mathematically and logically in no need of a beginning or end, and by logical extension, always was, is and will be.

There is no need for a designer, if God is infinite; ergo no-one designed the designer.

As Bertran Russel says, if the designer can be here for no reason, who no the design itself? In my opinion this argument is very old and honestly shows how difficult is for humanity to split with its old customs and mems. For me, the topic about the aliens in the new book by Hawking is far more interesting...

[F1boat]

And of course the american god is the one and the correct one which we all should believe in, right? Not the african, european, asian gods that exist as well? The christian god is the one to choose from the portfolio of gods and not for example Tapio, the ancient finnish god of trees and forest?

I know many people do believe in god only because it's easy. It's easy to justify that good and bad things happen because of god. And it's also nice to believe that after death you'll go to heaven.

It's really hard to accept the fact that human is just a biological creature that will just die and disappear. Just like fish, or leaf or any other biolocial creature.

Very well said. Although Tapio sounds cool :)

[F1boat]

Narcissism or simply arrogance.

IMO none are more arrogant than the priests with their supposed hidden wisdom which is in fact an open stupidity.

[Captain VXR]

Narcissism or simply arrogance. It is the old if I cannot do it, no one else can, line of thought.
Another term-- god wannabes.



It's not arrogance when surveys have found a high correlation (however surveys can say anything)

[ArrowsFA1]

"If there's a God, we must see him and if there's a soul we must perceive it. Otherwise, it's better not to believe. It's better to be an outspoken atheist than a hypocrite."
Swami Vivekananda

[race aficionado]

"If there's a God, we must see him": look in the mirror
"and if there's a soul we must perceive it": precisely


and I thought this was a propo:

http://alexbogusky.posterous.com/god-issues-recall


:s mokin:

[Bob Riebe]

IMO none are more arrogant than the priests with their supposed hidden wisdom which is in fact an open stupidity.
The Roman Catholic hierarchy is probably one of the worst cases of man being a god wannabe.

Some, many, priests are not as uppity as the RC dogma would make them.

[F1boat]

The Roman Catholic hierarchy is probably one of the worst cases of man being a god wannabe.

Some, many, priests are not as uppity as the RC dogma would make them.

Actually the Roman Catholics made an enormous effort to correct many of their wrongs. Few Churches are as open for dialogue as the Catholics today. While the evangelical churches with their literal interpretation of everything bar the other cheek thing leave me cold and even afraid.

[It's JM]

I hate these religious discussions but here's my own opinion.


None of us know whether or not God exists nor do we know who or what created the universe and the planets. I think the whole big bang theory is just a bunch of whoo-hah (cause that's just what it is, a theory). If you look at the world now, we are in the state that we are in because of religion. Religion started most of the troubles in the world (eg. "I blow up this house in the name of God/Allah/Buddha.").

I honestly don't have any problems with the road that they decide to travel since it is their choice and not mine, I just prefer not to get involved, faith is up to you. You choose whether you want to be an Atheist, Christian, Buddhist, Muslim or Rastafarian.

You only know whether or not there really is a God or Devil until the day you die and go to Heaven or Hell. I believe there is a God but I don't think a religion is necessary to see that there is one. Scientists can say what they want, all they are trying to do is put something else in the public's heads.

[race aficionado]

Thank God I'm an atheist!!!!!!!











Not really . . . . . . I just love that line . . . . .
:s mokin:

[Zico]

One cannot prove there is a God the same as one cannot prove there is not. But, In my humble opinion, the interventionalist, fire & brimstone I was brought up to believe obviously does not exist in that form, religion was created by man to control man. I have a theory that the Romans conquered and occupied a large part of the world but withdrew once Christianity gained a foothold, no need for Governers, military personnel and taxes once the pennance money started rolling in.

Religious fundamentalists and staunch aithiests who force their personal beliefs on everyone really piss me off. Gods existance being unprovable either way means being agnostic is the only logical viewpoint one can reach.

[Garry Walker]

You only know whether or not there really is a God or Devil until the day you die and go to Heaven or Hell. I believe there is a God but I don't think a religion is necessary to see that there is one. Scientists can say what they want, all they are trying to do is put something else in the public's heads.

:rotflmao:

Show me where those heaven and hell exist, show me proof that god exists you godlover.

[Garry Walker]

One cannot prove there is a God the same as one cannot prove there is not.

Why would I have to prove there is no god, when there is not even one slight hint of evidence that there is god. The onus is on godlovers to finally show me one piece of evidence to gods existence and if they cannot, then stop their retarded ramblings about a higher being deciding their worthless lives.
I have issued this challenge to godlovers many times and not once have they said anything worthwhile.

[F1boat]

Religious fundamentalists and staunch aithiests who force their personal beliefs on everyone really piss me off.

Yes! In Bulgaria communists try to enforce atheism during the end of the 40s and in the beginning of the 50s; it was horrible, many believers were mistreated, some even killed. This is in no way different to what fundies do in the name of their gods. Wish people could understand that love and friendship are more important that transcedent unanswerable questions.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Why would I have to prove there is no god, when there is not even one slight hint of evidence that there is god. The onus is on godlovers to finally show me one piece of evidence to gods existence and if they cannot, then stop their retarded ramblings about a higher being deciding their worthless lives.
I have issued this challenge to godlovers many times and not once have they said anything worthwhile.

Why didn't I think of this when I was stopped on the street by Mormons who were trying to seduce me into their cult.

[Bob Riebe]

Why would I have to prove there is no god, when there is not even one slight hint of evidence that there is god. The onus is on godlovers to finally show me one piece of evidence to gods existence and if they cannot, then stop their retarded ramblings about a higher being deciding their worthless lives.
I have issued this challenge to godlovers many times and not once have they said anything worthwhile.
faith   [feyth]
–noun
1.
confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2.
belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3.
belief in god or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4.
belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5.
a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
6.
the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
7.
the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.
8.
Christian Theology . the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.

Hmm, as the Christian dogma is based soley on faith, I see nothing above that says anything about proof.
Of course atheism is based on faith also, so to ask another to provide proof for the other's dogma, when the asker has none for his/hers, is being a hypocrite, or it is a simple debate tactic of never defend your rhetoric, attack the others.

[joepothead]

The same argument can be used against both sides. Who created spontaneous creation? Who invented God? It's a losing battle. Isn't it not enough to enjoy a pond without having to worry about the secret world of fairies underneath it, or the lack thereof?

[Robinho]

Faith is such a convenient get out. i struggle to see how someone can justify their choices, their actions and the effects they have on the world and other people based on the will of something unseen and unheard when there is enough you can actually experience that you can use to make your choices independently, live your one and only life to the full, make the best of the world around you and the relationships with others, treating people as you wish to be treated without retreating behind some teachings supposedly attached to a higher power.

i'm more than happy to live my life as I see fit, treat people the right way without any shred of faith in anyones gods, happy in the knowledge that I can take responsibility for my actions, and if, the big if, I am wrong and there is a god, if that is not good enough for them, then screw them. I'm not waiting around listening to the ramblings of a few preachers designed to spread fear to exert control over the masses and being prompted to commit acts in the name of some unseen "god"

IMO religon breeds intolerance and ignorance, you don't need religon in your life to treat people correctly and to be happy. There are more than enough examples of mistreatment and unhappiness caused by religons that prove beyond any doubt i may have there is no god, and the sooner the worlds wakes up to that fact and stops using it as an excuse the better we'll all be.

in the meantime, you are welcome to believe what you like, as long as it does not impact the society i choose to live in and definately as long as it doesn't mean people start killing people....whats that? they are doing that? for a god?... the same god?... messed up!

[Bob Riebe]

i'm more than happy to live my life as I see fit, treat people the right way
As you see fit-the right way-- hmmm, the right way by whose standards?

It would seem only by yours; therefore if aother lives ones life "the right way" but by standards that differ from yours, the one has every right, and is correct to do as the one believes proper, with no other rules, or guiding standards than the ones.

That makes life better than those supposedly trying to obey God, in what manner?

[Zico]

Excellent post Robinho..

Faith, that old chestnut?. Yep, for me its another word for burying your head in the sand. We knowingly or ignorantly live our lives and put trust in everyday objects based on science, designed and developed through science, we drive cars developed through simple physics/chemistry, yet some of us are prepared to put 'faith' in a belief system, a religion, founded thousands of years ago when events/incidents were unexplainable due to a complete inability to understand things as we can now.. which inevetably led to the belief in an all knowing/all controlling enitity.

I was brought up in what can only be described as a Christian fundamentalist sect, the Exclusive Brethren, where the stories in the bible were taken largely as literal fact and/or interpretations to suit whatever suited them at the time or for whatever incident. I made many, many attempts to reason/discuss scientific reasoning with my parents on pretty much most of the bible passages. It was like banging my head against a brick wall.. on one hand they could almost understand reluctantly how these things could be explained scientificaly but refused point blank to acknowledge that these events were nothing other than Gods miracles... in the end I had to respect their views on things and hoped they would respect mine. They could not, they have pretty much disowned me and the rest of their own children simply because we do not see things as they do, because we do not have this so called 'faith' they have. That is not only very sad but ironic when Christianity is supposed to be about peace, forgiveness, acceptance and love.

[Rollo]

IMO religion breeds intolerance and ignorance, you don't need religion in your life to treat people correctly and to be happy. There are more than enough examples of mistreatment and unhappiness caused by religions that prove beyond any doubt i may have there is no god, and the sooner the worlds wakes up to that fact and stops using it as an excuse the better we'll all be.

Religion according to the OED is
2. "a particular system of faith and/or worship",
3. "a controlling influence on a person's life"

My great conjecture is that in broad terms, faith is what a person believes or trusts in, and that religion is a set of practices which stem from this.

Everybody believes something (you yourself state that you believe there is no god, which is still belief of something), ergo everybody has their own unique religion of sorts. Whether or not it is codified is entirely another matter, but since religion is a set of practices, and everybody acts (I can't think of the most general verb, but no-one is totally inanimate), then it is not a logical leap to suggest that everyone has a religion.

Therefore I agree that religion breeds intolerance and ignorance, because: "everyone from the lowliest peasant, to kings and princes are motivated by self-interest"
- Adam Smith, Wealth of Nations, Book 1.

The thug who robs a 7-Eleven, a lazy plumber who takes too long to do a job, the bankers on Wall St, even the priesthood who do "naughty things", are all "motivated by self-interest"; because of this, the religion that has caused more "mistreatment and unhappiness" than any other is surely the religion of self-interest? I'd say that it's caused both far more bad and good than any organised church, or codified religion ever has.

Bob's comment here as far as I can tell, based on logical argument, is utterly perfect:

As you see fit-the right way-- hmmm, the right way by whose standards?

It would seem only by yours; therefore if another lives ones life "the right way" but by standards that differ from yours, the one has every right, and is correct to do as the one believes proper, with no other rules, or guiding standards than the ones.

That makes life better than those supposedly trying to obey God, in what manner?

Taken to it's most extreme Mr Robinho (and indeed everyone reading this, because everyone is motivated by self-interest), just which religion breeds the most intolerance and ignorance?
YOURS.

[race aficionado]

A thread like this can end up going to hell, pun intended.

As human beings, which we all are, we have to recognize that one of our traits is to have opinions and beliefs.

This is not to be confused with the acceptance of certain facts: like scientific or mathematical ones that have been proven as such.

In terms of beliefs and opinions, they are just that and as such they should be respected as long as they don't infringe in our free will and personal space and physical safety.

Please let's stop trying to convince the other that his beliefs and opinions are wrong - they just happen to be different than yours and so be it.

And as for me, I will go with the Donk's God, so sue me! :p :

peace and freedom of THOUGHT damit!
:s mokin:

[Bob Riebe]

I was brought up in what can only be described as a Christian fundamentalist sect, the Exclusive Brethren, where the stories in the bible were taken largely as literal fact------
and/or interpretations to suit whatever suited them at the time or for whatever incident.
The two are mutually exclusive, they either did it one way or the other.

That said-- I have dealt with enough "christians" whose dogma is based on the second part of your statement to know that, maybe, more dogmas run by that style than the former.

"Christian" whose exclude science from God's miracles are either ignorant or simply obtusely stubborn; after all God wrote the Science, Biology, Chemistry, Physics rules before man existed.
Sadly on the other side, too many men who whose knowledge of the above sciences is less than God's what to tell God how he did it, or at least make men believe they are that smart.

[Robinho]

As you see fit-the right way-- hmmm, the right way by whose standards?

It would seem only by yours; therefore if aother lives ones life "the right way" but by standards that differ from yours, the one has every right, and is correct to do as the one believes proper, with no other rules, or guiding standards than the ones.

That makes life better than those supposedly trying to obey God, in what manner?

not only by mine, by any means, mostly by society's, which i admit have many of their rules and laws based on religon. But i say they don't need to be religous to make sense, and they are actualy conceived by Humans anyway.

but i will make my own choices, not guided by something i can neither see, hear, feel or find any reason for other than Man's fear of the unknown, predominantly death. I will be accountable for my own actions, not hide behind rules or teachings I do not feel are anything more than fiction.

People are free to make their own choices, but generally have to accept the law of the land. I have conceded this is often based in some part on religous doctrine, but i also contend that without that we would still have the same rules of what is and isn't acceptable.

I'll obey laws, i'll obey rules and contracts that affect me. I'll obey those who i respect, i cannot obey something that i feel does not exist and that doesn't actually ask me to do anything. We have a powerful and complex brain and are surrounded by amazing things, many of which i cannot begin to explain or understand, but i don't see any reason to blindly accept that this means there must be a higher power at work who therefore i must be in awe of, afraid of, and obey.

Like i said, if i am wrong then its my souol, but i'm not prepared to waste what seems to me like one opportunity to exist on this planet in following some heavily doctored rules supposedly handed down a few thousand years ago when apparently people actually could interact with a god, or were naiive enough to believe those who claimed they could.

ignorance may indeed be bliss, but not for me

[Robinho]

Religion according to the OED is
2. "a particular system of faith and/or worship",
3. "a controlling influence on a person's life"

My great conjecture is that in broad terms, faith is what a person believes or trusts in, and that religion is a set of practices which stem from this.

Everybody believes something (you yourself state that you believe there is no god, which is still belief of something), ergo everybody has their own unique religion of sorts. Whether or not it is codified is entirely another matter, but since religion is a set of practices, and everybody acts (I can't think of the most general verb, but no-one is totally inanimate), then it is not a logical leap to suggest that everyone has a religion.

Therefore I agree that religion breeds intolerance and ignorance, because: "everyone from the lowliest peasant, to kings and princes are motivated by self-interest"
- Adam Smith, Wealth of Nations, Book 1.

The thug who robs a 7-Eleven, a lazy plumber who takes too long to do a job, the bankers on Wall St, even the priesthood who do "naughty things", are all "motivated by self-interest"; because of this, the religion that has caused more "mistreatment and unhappiness" than any other is surely the religion of self-interest? I'd say that it's caused both far more bad and good than any organised church, or codified religion ever has.

Bob's comment here as far as I can tell, based on logical argument, is utterly perfect:


Taken to it's most extreme Mr Robinho (and indeed everyone reading this, because everyone is motivated by self-interest), just which religion breeds the most intolerance and ignorance?
YOURS.

i can't argue with some of your post, especially belief systems, everyone believes in something, even if it is nothing, i guess.

we are motivtaed by self interest, amongst other natural animal instincts, such as the need to further the species, to be warm and fed, although the human instinct has evolved to pursue pleasure and peole will pursue different pleasures to varying degrees.

i don't agree that my disbelief in any god is a religon, i am not part of an organisation trying to spread my opinions (other than maybe the forum, in which case this is a religone and unfortunately for him, Mark is my god!)

i also strongly disagree with the ignorance part. I was brought up in a Christian home but had far too many questions that i felt could not be adequately answered by "faith" or "gods will". I am well educated in the Christian faith and have a decent understanding of many others. I know many people of various faiths who i am happy to debate with openly, and i often feel that many peoples attachment to a faith is more borne from a need to be part of an organisation and also to try and spread the very sensible and reasonable message of how is best to treat your fellow man and that the stories they base them on are jyst that, stories. if you really pressed them on whether they actually believed in their god their is a good deal of doubt, maybe they are just lacking faith. i contend you don't need to be part of the organised control system of whichever faith you pick to keep those morals and sensibilities, its just that people take some confort in the sharing.

i will agree that i am somewhat intolerant though, not to the people who choose to belive, that is their choice, and for the most part it wil lead them to living a heathly and happy life, but I am intolerant of those who seek to control people by way of religion, those activists and radicals who lobby against other groups because something goes against "gods will". Those who will use their god as an excuse to kill and maim because their god tells them to, or to spread their version of peace, that can only exist if their faith is the only one.

As long as religous people feel their beliefs are incompatible with both other religions as well as those without one then we are in trouble. in this respect the growing conservative politcal and religous movement scares me, as much as the Taliban or Al Queda. Anti-Gay, Anti-Abortion, climate change denying, anti other faiths. I cannot get on board with this.

All loving all peaceful gods are great, but we seem to be wearing thin on the ground for these at the moment.

i understand that people are scared of the unknown, they are scared of death and what may or may not follow, but its just people. we are it, i don't think there is anything else, so make the best of what we've got now, rather than trying to please something else in the hope of something eternal. That is the biggest and vainest pursuit of self interest out there

[F1boat]

i will agree that i am somewhat intolerant though, not to the people who choose to belive, that is their choice, and for the most part it wil lead them to living a heathly and happy life, but I am intolerant of those who seek to control people by way of religion, those activists and radicals who lobby against other groups because something goes against "gods will". Those who will use their god as an excuse to kill and maim because their god tells them to, or to spread their version of peace, that can only exist if their faith is the only one.

As long as religous people feel their beliefs are incompatible with both other religions as well as those without one then we are in trouble. in this respect the growing conservative politcal and religous movement scares me, as much as the Taliban or Al Queda. Anti-Gay, Anti-Abortion, climate change denying, anti other faiths. I cannot get on board with this.

All loving all peaceful gods are great, but we seem to be wearing thin on the ground for these at the moment.

i understand that people are scared of the unknown, they are scared of death and what may or may not follow, but its just people. we are it, i don't think there is anything else, so make the best of what we've got now, rather than trying to please something else in the hope of something eternal. That is the biggest and vainest pursuit of self interest out there

That's exactly the way I think... kudos for the great post.

[It's JM]

:rotflmao:

Show me where those heaven and hell exist, show me proof that god exists you godlover.
Let me correct your ignorance, I never said I was a god lover. A god lover lives by the word of god for their entire life, I hardly do that. And if your skills of comprehension were working, I specifically said "You only know whether or not there really is a God or Devil until the day you die and go to Heaven or Hell."

[markabilly]

Let me correct your ignorance, I never said I was a god lover. A god lover lives by the word of god for their entire life, I hardly do that. And if your skills of comprehension were working, I specifically said "You only know whether or not there really is a God or Devil until the day you die and go to Heaven or Hell."
as I said before, you may know there is no heaven, but brother, you better pray, there ain't no hell..... :eek: