Italian Grand Prix 2010

[gloomyDAY]

Monza baby! I really enjoy this track and want to see Hamilton win.

I'm a Red Bull fan, and primarily root for Vettel, but I'm not sure that the RB6 is going to deliver its full potential until Singapore. Also, I think that this race is make or break for Ferrari in terms of getting to the top of the championship.

I bet that Alonso will not win. Any takers? :s mokin:

[Valve Bounce]

It is interesting that RBR says their car is not as fast as the opposition at both Spa and Monza, yet Mark qualified on pole, and Vettel looked like he was a lot faster than bunsen until he T-boned him.

I suspect there is a lot of sandbagging going on among the top teams.

[Retro Formula 1]

It is interesting that RBR says their car is not as fast as the opposition at both Spa and Monza, yet Mark qualified on pole, and Vettel looked like he was a lot faster than bunsen until he T-boned him.

I suspect there is a lot of sandbagging going on among the top teams.

I don't think any team would sandbag once the first race of the season starts.

The Red Bull is still quick but I wonder if it will have such an advantage over Ferrari and especially McLaren at the next GP. I think that for the rest of the year, they will have to strenghten the nose / floor and will be on par with the Ferrari with the McLaren slightly behind.

If that's the case, I see Seb snapping, Webber slipping back and Alonso and Lewis carving up the next few races.

[Mark]

I think the pace of the McLaren and Red Bull is similar now. It'll be down to who makes the fewest mistakes. And over the course of the season, that's McLaren!

[Big Ben]

It seems to me that this is the last race RBR is not going to win... and they are really dumb not to focus on MW from right now.

[F1boat]

I guess that Lewis will win again. He is quick at Monza...

[Valve Bounce]

I don't think any team would sandbag once the first race of the season starts.

.

When I say sandbag, I don't mean on the track - I mean interviews with the media. RBR were supposed to be a lot slower than McLaren at both Spa and Monza according to the team - I don't think they are slow at all.

[turismo6]

I know McLaren won't run there F-duct, I wonder if that means no shark fin either.

[Big Ben]

I know McLaren won't run there F-duct, I wonder if that means no shark fin either.

now, whouldn't that be nice? I really want to see them gone.

[Mia 01]

This comes as no suprise, RBR are doomed from now on.

A few points here and there, that´s all their left.

It was a nice try.

[Retro Formula 1]

This comes as no suprise, RBR are doomed from now on.

A few points here and there, that´s all their left.

It was a nice try.

Do you really believe what you write?

RB scrabbling with the B division for scraps.

McLaren running the old Benetton TC system.

What next?

Ferrari using the Delorean out of Back to the Future.

:confused:

[SGWilko]

Ferrari using the Delorean out of Back to the Future.

:confused:

How easy is it to paint Stainless Steel?

[Mia 01]

Do you really believe what you write?

RB scrabbling with the B division for scraps.

McLaren running the old Benetton TC system.

What next?

Ferrari using the Delorean out of Back to the Future.

:confused:

That sums it up. But.

Then there´s Renualt, RBR and Renualt use the same engines but the latter is now much faster on the straights. Indeed, what´s left for poor Mark and Seb.

[woody2goody]

It'll probably be McLaren, then Ferrari, then Force India and Red Bull I think.

Maybe even Renault will be up there - Kubica has been strong at Monza in the past, and Mercedes have a good engine.

[steveaki13]

I would love to see Force India mix up front. As the only team not involved in a championship fight, they can maximise every one else's slight trepidation.

[Saint Devote]

It is interesting that RBR says their car is not as fast as the opposition at both Spa and Monza, yet Mark qualified on pole, and Vettel looked like he was a lot faster than bunsen until he T-boned him.

I suspect there is a lot of sandbagging going on among the top teams.

Jenson had his damaged wing and during the really wet laps, Button was signifiicantly the quickest driver on track - especially on the very wet lap 2 where Jense was 1.5 seconds quicker than all except Hamilton [half a second slower than Jenson].

But Monza is such as a unique track that we could see any of the top teams getting it right come qualifying - although I still reckon that the RB6 will be quickest with Ferrari right behind them. I would not be surprised to see Ferrari in front, this is Italy after all.

But it was Jenson being able stay in second place and this is what led Vettel to attack - and it failed as we saw.

[Saint Devote]

Mclaren has not caught up with Red Bull. Spa was not a race in normal conditions. And if the RB6 of Webber had not had problems with the clutch then Webber would have led from start to finish.

Mclaren is the team that makes the best of opportunities that come their way this year - but these sorts of races are exception not the rule.

It is quite ridiculous to use Spa as representing a new pecking order.

It is very early to start declaring championship winners. Under the old system even Jenson in 4th is now still only 14 points behind Hamilton with SIX races to go.

And as Raikkonen demonstrated in 2007 it is never over until it is!

I would never bet against Newey and I still reckon this is going to be a Red Bull year in the end. Vettel is the quickest driver in f1 and Webber right now is the most solid. If Vettel settles down he will not be caught.

[Saint Devote]

Monza, I adore. This track and Monte Carlo are my loves in f1. But Monza has the atmosphere of real racing and there is something so magical going there, especially when the old pits and paddock were still around.

To think who walked and raced there. It is only in Italy that such a place could exist.

And for me, it is where Jody won the grand prix and the championship in a Ferrari in 1979. That IS the ultimate for any racing driver and few have achieved it.

If there is one grand prix where Ferrari are SUPPOSED to win it is at Monza.

This will be El Nano's first visit as a Ferrari driver. No expense and no effort will be spared. I have a very special place for Ferrari - in the same way that I could NEVER have for Mclaren.

So if Jense is not winning then I will as always become a tifosi for the day.

What a pity HE did not move to Ferrari.

[Valve Bounce]

Who is El Nano? Is he some sorta Italian wonderkind? :p :
Never heard that nickname before - must be some official name from outaspace. :D

[Saint Devote]

Who is El Nano? Is he some sorta Italian wonderkind? :p :
Never heard that nickname before - must be some official name from outaspace. :D


It is the nickname in the paddock of Fernando Alonso - it has to do with his poker playing activity, which as you all know is something that is very popular in f1 especially with people such as Kubica, Ecclestone and Vettel.

My favorite was always that of a certain British driver - his nickname was "Del-Boy".

[Valve Bounce]

I just thought that you were very strict on official nicknames; never heard that nano stuff. But then, I don't know the F1 drivers like you do - in fact I don't know them at all.

[Ari]

Do you really believe what you write?

RB scrabbling with the B division for scraps.

McLaren running the old Benetton TC system.

What next?

Ferrari using the Delorean out of Back to the Future.

:confused:

Love it!

Pretty much my thoughts too.

Now, on that Delorean......

[Ari]

It is quite ridiculous to use Spa as representing a new pecking order.

....particularly considering we all knew before the break Spa and Monza are the last of the long straight / fast track and the following 5 are more suited to RBR.

If RBR can sit at the front of quali in the remaining 5 races, this means that someone has to overtake them to get more points or RBR need to DNF.

RBR are still in the box seat, even more so after Spa imo.

Lewis was less than an inch away from losing the WDC.... had he planted the wall.

[SGWilko]

And if Webber had not had problems with the clutch then Webber would have led from start to finish.

No way Pedro. He'd've been mugged on the straights by the McLarens. We already saw the RB6's hitting the limiter in the tow, so even if they were ahead, they would be limited to a given top speed by their ratio choice for gear 7.

[Mia 01]

It'll probably be McLaren, then Ferrari, then Force India and Red Bull I think.

Maybe even Renault will be up there - Kubica has been strong at Monza in the past, and Mercedes have a good engine.

Yes, that´s what I´m saying. Newey now needs to take a close looka at next years car.

[Retro Formula 1]

I just thought that you were very strict on official nicknames; never heard that nano stuff. But then, I don't know the F1 drivers like you do - in fact I don't know them at all.

Unlike his nonsense claims about Rubins, STD is correct on Fernando's nickname this time. I don't know where it comes from but he is refered to as El Nano.

[SGWilko]

Nano - isn't that something very small?

[ArrowsFA1]

Isn't a commonly used nickname for Fernando 'Nando?

[Robinho]

from a facebook page for Alonso
Nicknamed El Nano, literally meaning "the guy" that is a typical nickname from Asturias, his place of birth

so obviously something from the paddock about his poker playing ability. albeit this time it is a real nickname

[ioan]

Nano - isn't that something very small?

That certainly doesn't describe Alonso's ego, maybe something else.

[gloomyDAY]

Any changes to the track this season?

Hamilton did really well last year. If the McLaren weren't such a dog he'd be right up on Button's tail and ready to pounce.
Unfortunately, Hammy crashed towards the end of the race while pushing on the limit.


That certainly doesn't describe Alonso's ego, maybe something else. :laugh:

[Saint Devote]

Lewis was less than an inch away from losing the WDC.... had he planted the wall.

And as we are ALL aware - and Lewis gave note at Spa with his off - he is VERY fond of putting it into the barrier at Monza :D :D

I agree that RBR are in the ideal position - after all it was Spa [supposedly a terrible track for RBR] and despite the weather messing up qualifying and mechanical gremlins rising in the wet, Webber won POLE and finished 2nd [no wonder he looked as satisfied as the Mona Lisa[ and Seb was only a little back.

[Saint Devote]

Nano - isn't that something very small?

It was written about in F1 Racing almost two years ago - it arose during the marathon poker playing sessions that are led by Bernie and Kubica - he is known to grumble about putting up the stakes "too high".

Whether it has something to do with where hails from is probably purely coincidental.

It is not I think anything like "Schumi" - which is an official nickname used in Germany and was always used - but merely one that is conveniently given.

At least the current crop of drivers do not have tendency towards that AWFUL game called golf as driver previously had. I remember backgammon was very popular for years during the 70's and 80's with the grand prix circus.

[Valve Bounce]

Well, we're not going to stop calling SchM our pet choices despite any assertain that there is an alternative official German version, will we? nor are we going to stop calling Fernando Nando or Freddie like we have been in this forum for years.

[gloomyDAY]

I don't think RBR have a chance at Monza. Honestly, I think either Button or Hamilton are going to win in Italy.


It is not I think anything like "Schumi" - which is an official nickname used in Germany and was always used - but merely one that is conveniently given.lmfao! Are you serious?

First, you say that F1 drivers are not athletes. Tell that to some of the drivers on the grid and I'm sure that they'll run you over with their daily driver. Since F1 is an anaerobic exercise, because F1 drivers have zero endurance and use short bursts of energy like weightlifters , I think that GP weekends will be a lot shorter.

Second, you keep throwing this stupid argument around that we have to call Schumacher "Schumi" as a nickname or else it's offensive to some German people. I can call Shoemaker whatever the hell I want. The only person who gets their panties in a wad is you.

[Valve Bounce]

Like Athletes Foot, the thing keeps coming back - can't get rid of it. :rotflmao:

[Saint Devote]

Questions to be answered at Monza this weekend is how will the tifosi react to Schumi? For so many years a Ferrari-isti but now part of the enemy.

It is well known that nationality is not important to the tifosi - it is the alliegance to FERRARI.

Will the tifosi serenade and cheer Rubens, the reigning Italian GP champion because of his situation with Schumi at Hungaroring?

And definitely beautiful Monza is the center of the racing world because that is where the heart of motor racing lives.

And would it not be the best answer to the heartless bureaucrats in Paris if Alonso wins?

How will the tifosi respond to what Massa did at and after Hockenheim? Is he the hero that sacrificed for the team or is he the traitor who deliberately triggered bringing the Scuderia into the kangaroo court of the WMSC?

This is after all the Italian Grand Prix and the passion and love for Ferrari dictates EVERYTHING!

Gotta love the place!

[ShiftingGears]

Questions to be answered at Monza this weekend is how will the tifosi react to Schumi? For so many years a Ferrari-isti but now part of the enemy.

It is well known that nationality is not important to the tifosi - it is the alliegance to FERRARI.

Will the tifosi serenade and cheer Rubens, the reigning Italian GP champion because of his situation with Schumi at Hungaroring?

And definitely beautiful Monza is the center of the racing world because that is where the heart of motor racing lives.

And would it not be the best answer to the heartless bureaucrats in Paris if Alonso wins?

How will the tifosi respond to what Massa did at and after Hockenheim? Is he the hero that sacrificed for the team or is he the traitor who deliberately triggered bringing the Scuderia into the kangaroo court of the WMSC?

This is after all the Italian Grand Prix and the passion and love for Ferrari dictates EVERYTHING!

Gotta love the place!

I should think that most there will wish a good result to Schuey so long as he isn't holding up a Ferrari.

[Saint Devote]

No way Pedro. He'd've been mugged on the straights by the McLarens. We already saw the RB6's hitting the limiter in the tow, so even if they were ahead, they would be limited to a given top speed by their ratio choice for gear 7.

Webber is also very good at making his car extremely wide and he could have broken the tow subtley - not an easy person to pass is Markus!

:D and he is not shy of putting people onto the dirt. Overtake me? I soon have your wheels off mate!

He was only 300ths of second slower than Hamilton on their quickest laps as well.

What you say techically it all sounds very logical, but this is not Scalectrix and under racing conditions there are many things a good racing driver can do as well.

[Valve Bounce]

Short answer: the tifosi will cheer for Ferrari! If both Ferrari's break down, or crash, they will depart waving their Ferrari flags sadly as they go.

If you don't believe me, ask pino.

[ZEROX]

I just hope for the rains comes down . After that , lets the mayem commence . I hope Ferrari or Red Bull could win . Or even Renault but i bet Mclaren will dominate the race unless Hamilton messed up on the final lap . Rmember last year ?
Anyway , one of the thing i'll look forward is the return of Schumacher at Monza . I want to see what kind of reception will Micheal gets when he's there .

[Valve Bounce]

Maybe the Italians will cheer for SchM when a Ferrari laps him. :p : :D :rotflmao:

[ZEROX]

Lets just hope that will happen . :p :

[Valve Bounce]

Lets just hope that will happen . :p : Me too!!!! :up:

[Saint Devote]

The issue is that if a Ferrari does NOT beat as bad a handling car as the Mercedes then that WILL be a disgrace.

I think Schumi will do as well as possible and as he is the great Schumacher I think a good surprise - a bad one for all of the Schumi haters above - is always possible.

Viva Michael :-]

[ZEROX]

I was just joking there .
Schumi fan here ! :D
Finish in top 10 would be good enough for him .

[Valve Bounce]

The issue is that if a Ferrari does NOT beat as bad a handling car as the Mercedes then that WILL be a disgrace.

I think Schumi will do as well as possible and as he is the great Schumacher I think a good surprise - a bad one for all of the Schumi haters above - is always possible.

Viva Michael :-]

Yeah! Maradonna believed that the Italians would cheer for him during the World Cup in Italy - all he got were whistles and rasberries. But I am sure that the Italians will Bronx cheer him when a Ferrari laps him. :rotflmao:

[ZEROX]

But I am sure that the Italians will Bronx cheer him when a Ferrari laps him. :rotflmao:

Plausible indeed .

[Dave B]

Well I've packed my Massa team orders t-shirt and I'm ready for my flight. I'm hoping for a Jenson victory to make up for the disappointment of being rammed by the crash cart.

[pallone col bracciale]

Well I've packed my Massa team orders t-shirt and I'm ready for my flight.

Who do we send your remains, at least what remains will be found, to?

Wear a shirt like that, my friend, and I recommend you go nowhere near the Lesmos!

Seriously, enjoy the Gran Premio! To not have witnessed a Ferrari victory at Monza is not to have known what it is to be truly alive.

[Valve Bounce]

Seriously, enjoy the Gran Premio! To not have witnessed a Ferrari victory at Monza is not to have known what it is to be truly alive.

I agree, and I envy you. ENJOY!! :up:

[ioan]

Questions to be answered at Monza this weekend is how will the tifosi react to Schumi? For so many years a Ferrari-isti but now part of the enemy.

They won't react in any way as he will not be threatening Ferrari with this year's Mercedes race car.

[gloomyDAY]

I knew they'd change the track!

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86452

Good call. Safety first and I'd hate to see cars get airborne.

[Saint Devote]

Monza is actually a difficult track to beat everyone. In fact Jackie Stewart has always seen Monza 1971 as his greatest race.

The reason why is because it is easy for many to be fast there so it the ability to be as smooth as possible and carry as much speed through the corners without scrubbing off too much, consistently is vital.

And while Spa is a great track, it has the most disgusting climate and at least at Monza the weather will not mess everything up as it did in Belgium.

Naturally I think that Jenson will go well and maybe even win, but this is one race that predicting a winner I reckon is going to be difficult.

Maybe Robert Kubica will be the surprise?

Hopefully the weather will be good as usual, all the top drivers will be on their game and maybe we will get a race to remember for GOOD reasons: pure racing.

[Ranger]

The Renaults and Force Indias are slippery in a straight line, I'm tipping them for a podium or a win.

Red Bull will have done extremely well to get one car on the podium here, like they did in Belgium.

[Mia 01]

RBR are doomed, for sure, but perhaps they can take a few points with them.

Lewis will grab this one, hands down.

[Valve Bounce]

The Renaults and Force Indias are slippery in a straight line, I'm tipping them for a podium or a win.

Red Bull will have done extremely well to get one car on the podium here, like they did in Belgium.

If Force India wins, no doubt there will be extensive investigations into bets placed with certain illegal Indian bookmakers. :p :

[Ranger]

If Force India wins, no doubt there will be extensive investigations into bets placed with certain illegal Indian bookmakers. :p :

:D

[Retro Formula 1]

Monza is actually a difficult track to beat everyone. In fact Jackie Stewart has always seen Monza 1971 as his greatest race.



I don't know how you measure someones greatest race but John Boy always said that the German wins were the ones that gave him the most satisfaction because of the challenge of combining skill and bravery. The circuit scared him which makes his achievements all the more special there.

Truly "Great" racing.

[ArrowsFA1]

Brazilian former world champion Emerson Fittipaldi will fill the role as the stewards' advisor at this weekend's Italian Grand Prix at Monza.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86463

[Retro Formula 1]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86463

He's biased in favour of Lewis because......

(Answers on a Postcard please)

[steveaki13]

Well from the weather it appears to have been raining alot recently but come the weekend the forcast says Sun, Sun, Sun.

And the traditional low late summer sun of Monza for Race Day.
Fingers Crossed.

[donKey jote]

Who is El Nano? Is he some sorta Italian wonderkind? :p :
Never heard that nickname before - must be some official name from outaspace. :D
well I guess not many in Spain have heard "Fred" either :p
el nano has always been his nickname in Spain. Melendi even mention it in one of their songs... but I guess you probably never heard of Melendi either :laugh:
5bZPcKCrxaQ

[Saint Devote]

I don't know how you measure someones greatest race but John Boy always said that the German wins were the ones that gave him the most satisfaction because of the challenge of combining skill and bravery. The circuit scared him which makes his achievements all the more special there.

Truly "Great" racing.

The wee Scot himself said so in the old book by Nigel Roebuck titled "Grand Prix Greats" and went on to explain why and why he considers Monza a more difficult track for a driver to be quick than Monte Carlo.

He mentioned the Nurburgring but said he always relieved when he finished the race there and was aware that people thought his 1969 race was his best, but he did not - where do you get that information from?

:s mokin: The words I used were from Jackie himself auld sunne!

[Saint Devote]

He's biased in favour of Lewis because......

(Answers on a Postcard please)

Och, now dont go spreadin' rumours old boy!

Emerson [god I hate the American destruction of his name into "Emmo"] Fittipaldi alongside Mario Andretti is the greatest all round racing driver in the world alive today.

It is appropriate that he be at Monza I think because of its high speed nature.

I dont know why you would even jokingly mention such a thing.

[Valve Bounce]

well I guess not many in Spain have heard "Fred" either :p
el nano has always been his nickname in Spain. Melendi even mention it in one of their songs... but I guess you probably never heard of Melendi either :laugh:
5bZPcKCrxaQ

Sure! he's the famous Fado singer.

[ShiftingGears]

The wee Scot himself said so in the old book by Nigel Roebuck titled "Grand Prix Greats" and went on to explain why and why he considers Monza a more difficult track for a driver to be quick than Monte Carlo.

He mentioned the Nurburgring but said he always relieved when he finished the race there and was aware that people thought his 1969 race was his best, but he did not - where do you get that information from?

:s mokin: The words I used were from Jackie himself auld sunne!

That's when Monza wasn't riddled with chicanes.

[ArrowsFA1]

I'm looking forward to seeing how Force India go at Monza, and how about this for a shock result...Vitantonio Liuzzi to become the first Italian to win a GP in Italy since 1990, or at Monza since 1966.

[F1boat]

I'd love to see Ferrari winning...

[Valve Bounce]

I'd love to see Ferrari winning...

Me too! pino will go into orbit. :p :

[F1boat]

Yes, and it is always very cute when they win in Monza. I'd also like Michael to do well. But honestly I think that McLaren-Mercedes will be very hard to beat.

[Retro Formula 1]

The wee Scot himself said so in the old book by Nigel Roebuck titled "Grand Prix Greats" and went on to explain why and why he considers Monza a more difficult track for a driver to be quick than Monte Carlo.

He mentioned the Nurburgring but said he always relieved when he finished the race there and was aware that people thought his 1969 race was his best, but he did not - where do you get that information from?

:s mokin: The words I used were from Jackie himself auld sunne!

I get the information from some bloke called John Young Stewart. I think he might be a relative or something :D Do a quick Google on "Jackie Stewart Greatest Race" and it comes up with an Essay by the man himself entitled:

"The German GP of 1968 - My Greatest Race"


"At last, I took the chequered flag just over 4 minutes ahead of Graham. It was a tremendously satisfying race to win, but I was very pleased to get it over with. I can remember thinking as I went down to the south turn after taking the chequered flag that this was perhaps my greatest ambition as far as winning on any circuit was concerned. The Nurburgring is a track on which I had always wanted to win a Grand Prix because I think it certainly is the greatest challenge to a driver, and I must say winning it in the rain was very satisfying."

http://formula1history.com/nurburg1968.htm

You can also look up lot of quotes from different interviews like this one:



"Nothing gave me more satisfaction than to win at the Nurburgring," said Jackie Stewart (http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/drv-stejac.html), "and yet, I was always afraid. When I left home for the German Grand Prix I always used to pause at the end of the driveway and take a long look back. I was never sure I'd come home again."

http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/cir-056.html

Now, he may have changed his mind for Nigel but to submit a article laying out what he considered was his greatest race, as well as general public consensus concluding it was his greatest race, seems quite substantial.

It would be interesting to see the article you refer to. Can you submit the link auud sunne!

[Valve Bounce]

From the Golders Green Weakly, olde son!! :rotflmao:

[Saint Devote]

I get the information from some bloke called John Young Stewart. I think he might be a relative or something :D Do a quick Google on "Jackie Stewart Greatest Race" and it comes up with an Essay by the man himself entitled:

"The German GP of 1968 - My Greatest Race"



http://formula1history.com/nurburg1968.htm

You can also look up lot of quotes from different interviews like this one:



http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/cir-056.html

Now, he may have changed his mind for Nigel but to submit a article laying out what he considered was his greatest race, as well as general public consensus concluding it was his greatest race, seems quite substantial.

It would be interesting to see the article you refer to. Can you submit the link auud sunne!

Its not a link, its a book. It was written in 1990 and published in 1991 and they discussed both these races because Roebuck mentioned to him that his greatest race was Nurburgring and Stewart corrected him explaining essentially as I did above.

I would suggest you e-mailing Nigel Roebuck a message if you have doubts.
The public's view is not important or relevant this matter.

[Saint Devote]

That's when Monza wasn't riddled with chicanes.

And Spa was 9 miles long with barriers running alongside the kerbs where the run-off areas begin today.

Things change and soon enough we adapt.

[Valve Bounce]

Its not a link, its a book. It was written in 1990 and published in 1991 and they discussed both these races because Roebuck mentioned to him that his greatest race was Nurburgring and Stewart corrected him explaining essentially as I did above.

I would suggest you e-mailing Nigel Roebuck a message if you have doubts.
The public's view is not important or relevant this matter.

Just the same, I'd rather accept skc's detailed explanation. Unless you can link that detailed discussion between Jackie Stewart and Nigel Roebuck and provide quotes like he did, then all we have are your ramblings to rely on, and quite frankly, that just doesn't compare.

[Ari]

Short answer: the tifosi will cheer for Ferrari! If both Ferrari's break down, or crash, they will depart waving their Ferrari flags sadly as they go.

If you don't believe me, ask pino.

hahaha!

That is SO simple but SO spot on! :D

[Ari]

If Force India wins, no doubt there will be extensive investigations into bets placed with certain illegal Indian bookmakers. :p :

Correct! Cricket scores update.....

India 9/210
Pakistan 9/229

Where: Mumbai
When: Next Friday

:D

[Saint Devote]

Just the same, I'd rather accept skc's detailed explanation. Unless you can link that detailed discussion between Jackie Stewart and Nigel Roebuck and provide quotes like he did, then all we have are your ramblings to rely on, and quite frankly, that just doesn't compare.

I dont care what you do.

Read the Nigel Roebuck book, dont read the book, prefer skc or whatever - its all the same to me. This is really not important and quite frankly has nothing to do with the Italian Grand Prix practice times this morning or the race this weekend.

End of discussion.

[Valve Bounce]

I dont care what you do.



End of discussion.

Same to you with brass knobs!!!!!!!!!!!!

[SGWilko]

Same to you with brass knobs!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah, you stinky poo poo! :rotflmao:

(Shouldn't need pointing out by the ministry of the bleeding obvious, but for the sake of some on here, that was humour.)

[ArrowsFA1]

Fernando is going out now and Felipe is following him soon
http://twitter.com/InsideFerrari/status/24089428531

That'd be right :p

[Retro Formula 1]

Its not a link, its a book. It was written in 1990 and published in 1991 and they discussed both these races because Roebuck mentioned to him that his greatest race was Nurburgring and Stewart corrected him explaining essentially as I did above.

I would suggest you e-mailing Nigel Roebuck a message if you have doubts.
The public's view is not important or relevant this matter.

Hey, don't have a cow man...

Perhaps you can tell me the name of the book as I've just been through all of Reobucks books and can't find one published in 1991. He did have a few in 1990, could it be one of them?

I don't doubt that it exists but would like to read it myself as some of your claims in the past have been lacking elements of substance, if you know what I mean ;)

[Saint Devote]

Pos Driver Team Time Laps
1. Button McLaren-Mercedes 1:23.693 28
2. Vettel Red Bull-Renault 1:23.790 + 0.097 27
3. Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes 1:23.967 + 0.274 25
4. Kubica Renault 1:24.120 + 0.427 25
5. Rosberg Mercedes 1:24.129 + 0.436 30
6. Webber Red Bull-Renault 1:24.446 + 0.753 26
7. Liuzzi Force India-Mercedes 1:24.512 + 0.819 19
8. Alonso Ferrari 1:24.543 + 0.850 24
9. Massa Ferrari 1:24.648 + 0.955 22
10. Schumacher Mercedes 1:24.756 + 1.063 26
11. Hulkenberg Williams-Cosworth 1:24.841 + 1.148 28
12. di Resta Force India-Mercedes 1:24.923 + 1.230 23
13. Petrov Renault 1:25.292 + 1.599 25
14. Buemi Toro Rosso-Ferrari 1:25.318 + 1.625 29
15. de la Rosa Sauber-Ferrari 1:25.320 + 1.627 20
16. Kobayashi Sauber-Ferrari 1:25.334 + 1.641 24
17. Alguersuari Toro Rosso-Ferrari 1:25.897 + 2.204 19
18. Glock Virgin-Cosworth 1:26.772 + 3.079 19
19. Trulli Lotus-Cosworth 1:26.898 + 3.205 12
20. di Grassi Virgin-Cosworth 1:26.956 + 3.263 17
21. Kovalainen Lotus-Cosworth 1:27.374 + 3.681 14
22. Senna HRT-Cosworth 1:28.256 + 4.563 8
23. Barrichello Williams-Cosworth 1:28.516 + 4.823 4
24. Yamamoto HRT-Cosworth 1:29.870 + 6.177 17

[Retro Formula 1]

On the low downforce of Monza, it looks like the main players are going to be pretty even. I expect RBR to have the slightly quicker car but wont be surprised if Ferrari are within a fag paper of them with McLaren not too far behind.

The real test will be if they are as close at Singapore with the changes to the testing procedure. That will decide this years championship more than Monza.

[Saint Devote]

:D First practice - Jense in charge!

I though that this supposed to be a "bad" track for the RB06 - clearly not when the quickest driver in f1 is driving it!

Nice mix at the top with Kubica and "Brittney" also in the mix.

Of course this is only the first practice session and there is still a long way to go.

Ferrari definitely NOT making the tifosi smile!

Lotus, Virgin and HRT are the only teams not running f-ducts.

Liuzzi a surprise.

Practices are so frenetic these days.

[Valve Bounce]

Slight re-shuffle in second prac. Go to autosport for results pls.

[Retro Formula 1]

I thought RBR and Ferrari would come through strong in FP2.

Looks like McLaren are going to have to do it in Qual and the start again.

----------------------------

Pos Driver Team Time Laps
1. Vettel Red Bull-Renault 1:22.839 27
2. Alonso Ferrari 1:22.915 + 0.076 32
3. Massa Ferrari 1:23.061 + 0.222 20
4. Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes 1:23.154 + 0.315 22
5. Button McLaren-Mercedes 1:23.210 + 0.371 38
6. Webber Red Bull-Renault 1:23.415 + 0.576 23
7. Barrichello Williams-Cosworth 1:23.708 + 0.869 31
8. Kubica Renault 1:23.709 + 0.870 32
9. Hulkenberg Williams-Cosworth 1:23.852 + 1.013 30
10. Rosberg Mercedes 1:23.857 + 1.018 29
11. Sutil Force India-Mercedes 1:24.181 + 1.342 35
12. Liuzzi Force India-Mercedes 1:24.380 + 1.541 36
13. Petrov Renault 1:24.407 + 1.568 21
14. Schumacher Mercedes 1:24.448 + 1.609 29
15. Buemi Toro Rosso-Ferrari 1:24.517 + 1.678 35
16. de la Rosa Sauber-Ferrari 1:24.547 + 1.708 32
17. Kobayashi Sauber-Ferrari 1:24.785 + 1.946 31
18. Alguersuari Toro Rosso-Ferrari 1:25.106 + 2.267 24
19. Trulli Lotus-Cosworth 1:26.204 + 3.365 38
20. Kovalainen Lotus-Cosworth 1:26.306 + 3.467 41
21. di Grassi Virgin-Cosworth 1:26.631 + 3.792 31
22. Glock Virgin-Cosworth 1:26.676 + 3.837 25
23. Yamamoto HRT-Cosworth 1:29.498 + 6.659 5
24. Senna HRT-Cosworth 3

[wedge]

:D First practice - Jense in charge!



Saturday afternoon he'll be mid-pack in the top 10, as per usual.

[I am evil Homer]

Saint will now tell us how Jense is so Prost like and how Hamilton is too hard on his tyres....

[Roamy]

WOW that 7 times world champion the greatest driver ever just "scorched" the field. errrr or maybe his underwear :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[VkmSpouge]

Was I imagining things or were the Virgins the fastest through the speed traps?

[steveaki13]

Was I imagining things or were the Virgins the fastest through the speed traps?


Yer I heard that.

Fastest through the speed traps, and must be worst through the corners to still be behind Lotus

[steveaki13]

Not scientific, but I found it really strange watching F1 cars at Monza with what looked like very chunky rear wings. (Due to the F Ducts).

They just don't look right around Monza without a tea tray rear wing.

[VkmSpouge]

Yer I heard that.

Fastest through the speed traps, and must be worst through the corners to still be behind Lotus

To be fair the Hispanias are probably worse than either Lotus or Virgin.

[Saint Devote]

Saint will now tell us how Jense is so Prost like and how Hamilton is too hard on his tyres....

I have never used Prost as an indicator for Jense - Prost is far above anyone in f1 today other than Schumi of course.

The SIMILARITY is that Jense last year was remarkably easy on tyres - and still is - as mentioned by the race CEO of Bridgestone. He said he has always been amazed at Jenson's tyre wear compared to everyone else.

Hamilton IS harder on his tyres, it is just his style - but it does not mean he is going to destroy them.

Why do I have to explain this to you? Surely you can fathom things for yourself! Jeez!

[Saint Devote]

Once again the quickest driver in F1, is uickest

[Saint Devote]

Once again the quickest driver in formula 1 today demostrated his ability by putting the RB6 quickest - I thought Monza was supposed to be the "worst" track for them - but that of course ignores the ability of Vettel.

Good show indeed.

Excellent showing by Ferrari - this is Monza after all and the tifosi EXPECT!

But Jense and Hamilton moved to preparing for the race and this must not be ignored - qualifying could yet be good for them.

Great to have Williams in the top ten!

[Saint Devote]

Was I imagining things or were the Virgins the fastest through the speed traps?

I saw the fastest through was Buemi at 214 mph.

[VkmSpouge]

I saw the fastest through was Buemi at 214 mph.

In practice 1, Buemi was fastest with 345kph, in practice two Glock was fastest with 345.9kph and di Grassi with 345.8.
In this morning's practice it was Alguersuari 347.6kph.

[markabilly]

Poor schuie, the situ with the media is beginning to remind me of the same stuff as with Danica. All this constant attention on him.......when he is running mid pack and behind his team mate.

[Valve Bounce]

My pickems are buggered. :(

[spudrsca]

Well played red bull and webber.
Hamilton couldn't do a clean lap, was catching Webber on the closing stage of first lap of his last stint and was stuck behind him for the last lap before the checkered flag;

[VkmSpouge]

Very good qualifying by Fernando Alonso and Jenson Button, it will be interesting to see how well Button's high downforce set-up will work in the race.

[gm99]

I'm surprised the Force Indias didn't do better on this track. Liuzzi appears to have had a problem in Q1, but I would have expected Sutil to make Q3 easily.

[wedge]

Seems Monza is a bit of a bogey track for Hamilton

[pino]

Amazing lap and pole for Alonso :up:

[ShiftingGears]

Seems Monza is a bit of a bogey track for Hamilton

Good lap from Button nonetheless :up:

Could be his time to beat his teammate in the dry :p :

[Roamy]

Poor schuie, the situ with the media is beginning to remind me of the same stuff as with Danica. All this constant attention on him.......when he is running mid pack and behind his team mate.

Maybe he should give that seat to Danica

[motetarip]

Good lap from Button nonetheless :up:

Could be his time to beat his teammate in the dry :p :

I'd rather see him do it in an identical car, but I don't think that will happen in 2010

[ioan]

Impressive lap by Alonso, he's got lucky at the right moment.

Even more impressive lap by Button though given the higher downforce setup he was running, though if he doesn't jump Alonso at the start he has zero chances of overtaking him.

Lewis was a bit of a looney this time, why oh why didn't he take his time and put some free air between himself and Webber?!

[Robinho]

Impressive lap by Alonso, he's got lucky at the right moment.

Even more impressive lap by Button though given the higher downforce setup he was running, though if he doesn't jump Alonso at the start he has zero chances of overtaking him.

Lewis was a bit of a looney this time, why oh why didn't he take his time and put some free air between himself and Webber?!

Lewis pretty much said the same himself. He said he picked up a bit of a tow from Mark, which he didn't really need as he was quick in a straight line anyway, but lost out in the corners as a result. He should have given himself a couple of hundred metres more.

I think Jensons set up will be very handy in the race, he should be able to be on the back of anyone in front through the corners, use the F-duct and slipstream to stay with them on the straights and be better under braking with the extra downforce. Add that it ought to make the tyres last better and he could be in for a decent race.

[pallone col bracciale]

Magnifico per Ferrari! Great job by Alonso.

The critics are missing today. Ché sorpresa.

I do not remember his predecessor giving the Tifosi joy at Monza. Money well spent.

[Robinho]

Magnifico per Ferrari! Great job by Alonso.

The critics are missing today. Ché sorpresa.

I do not remember his predecessor giving the Tifosi joy at Monza. Money well spent.

what is there to criticise? they did a good job today, Alonso in particular, credit when due, criticism when due. Today they deserve credit.

Why try to start a fight for nothing?

[Mia 01]

Also is done for (engine), seb will catch him and vin.

[F1boat]

Amazing lap and pole for Alonso :up:

I agree! Great result for the red cars!

[Sleeper]

Also is done for (engine), seb will catch him and vin.

Its so funny reading your posts, it really does make me wonder what fantasy world your in. Alonso is running a new engine for this race, his 8th, and RBR just arent in it.

Button should be into tutn 1 first and from there on a close race between himself and Alonso,.

[truefan72]

Well played red bull and webber.
Hamilton couldn't do a clean lap, was catching Webber on the closing stage of first lap of his last stint and was stuck behind him for the last lap before the checkered flag;
yep, that is why I still like Hamilton's chances. He needs a good start and I can see him climb to 3rd behind Button, and if it seems like Button is holding up Hamilton, well....Ferrari set the standard!

[gloomyDAY]

This is weird. I'm actually rooting for Bunsen to pass that Spanish prick.

[truefan72]

Its so funny reading your posts, it really does make me wonder what fantasy world your in. Alonso is running a new engine for this race, his 8th, and RBR just arent in it.

Button should be into tutn 1 first and from there on a close race between himself and Alonso,.

good points

I guess we will just have to wait until the race ;)

[woody2goody]

What happened to Liuzzi in Q1?

If he wasn't blocked then even I'm starting to think that he might not be good enough for F1.

Also Petrov's block on Glock was terribly dosile.

As for the race tomorrow, well I think Alonso will win, even though I reckon Button will get to Turn 1 first. However if Button does lead the race early on, his superior tyre preservation may ensure that he can lap quickly wnough late in the stint to pull off a victory.

[Josti]

What happened to Liuzzi in Q1?

If he wasn't blocked then even I'm starting to think that he might not be good enough for F1.

Technical issues, only did one lap I think.

[Hawkmoon]

Monza isn't hard on the tires. Nobody has had any problem with high degredation all weekend so I don't see that Button's supposedly superior tyre preseravation skills will have any effect on the result.

Even if Button somehow leads into turn 1, unlikely unless Alonso stuffs up because the Ferraris get off the line better than anything else, then he's going to be a sitting duck on the straights as he was one of the slowest cars through the speed traps.

This is Alonso's race to lose. I just hope he doesn't lose it.

[truefan72]

Monza isn't hard on the tires. Nobody has had any problem with high degredation all weekend so I don't see that Button's supposedly superior tyre preseravation skills will have any effect on the result.

Even if Button somehow leads into turn 1, unlikely unless Alonso stuffs up because the Ferraris get off the line better than anything else, then he's going to be a sitting duck on the straights as he was one of the slowest cars through the speed traps.

This is Alonso's race to lose. I just hope he doesn't lose it.

knowing Alonso's recent form anything can happen. The first few laps will be very important and if Alonso does get beat into turn 1 it will be interesting to see how he handles that situation.

12 hours to go, come on!!

[airshifter]

Great qually, and as much as I'm not an Alonso fan a great day for the tifosi with him being on the pole.

I'm really interested in how the different car setups play out. It appears Jenson and Kubica are running more downforce..... but at Monza it's next to impossible to pass in the corners. On the flip side, if the "tray wing" cars can't get close through the corners, will the added top end speed be enough to catch the high downforce cars before the next corner?

I have a feeling we will be finding out that answer at the ends of the long straights. :D

[markabilly]

Fred's great qualifying effort, a fast ferrari, and his pole makes it his race unless: (1) he blows the start, or (2) has some mechanical problems, or (3) the mesage come from the pits: "Fred, Massa is faster than you. I repeat, Massa is faster than you, un-der-stand?"

[truefan72]

Fred's great qualifying effort, a fast ferrari, and his pole makes it his race unless: (1) he blows the start, or (2) has some mechanical problems, or (3) the mesage come from the pits: "Fred, Massa is faster than you. I repeat, Massa is faster than you, un-der-stand?"

lol

now that would be something.

The likely radio message would be from Alonso to the team telling Massa to slow down then Smedley coming unto the radio to Massa saying.

"Felipe,you are faster than Alonso, give him room so you guys don't crash. do you un-der-stand?"

If massa were to be faster that Fred, would Ferrari let him get Ahead of alonso so he could win the race for ferrari or would they risk him being stuck behind Alonso and probably getting into trouble with Button,Vettel Hamilton Webber, who might eventually pass him, cause some damage to the car and then pass Alonso? what would ferrari do?

...just sayin'

[CNR]

lol

now that would be something.

The likely radio message would be from Alonso to the team telling Massa to slow down then Smedley coming unto the radio to Massa saying.

"Felipe,you are faster than Alonso, give him room so you guys don't crash. do you un-der-stand?"

If massa were to be faster that Fred, would Ferrari let him get Ahead of alonso so he could win the race for ferrari or would they risk him being stuck behind Alonso and probably getting into trouble with Button,Vettel Hamilton Webber, who might eventually pass him, cause some damage to the car and then pass Alonso? what would ferrari do?

...just sayin'

Q: how does alonso get the teams to hand him a win ?

[Valve Bounce]

Amazing lap and pole for Alonso :up:

......................and Ferrari, don't forget!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Valve Bounce]

This is weird. I'm actually rooting for Bunsen to pass that Spanish prick.

Me too. And it would add icing to the cake if Lewis Hamilton finished behind him, like far, far behind.

The only problem is my pickems are buggered. :(

[Valve Bounce]

Impressive lap by Alonso, he's got lucky at the right moment.

Even more impressive lap by Button though given the higher downforce setup he was running, though if he doesn't jump Alonso at the start he has zero chances of overtaking him.

Lewis was a bit of a looney this time, why oh why didn't he take his time and put some free air between himself and Webber?!

Maybe he was trying to get a tow down the straights in Mark's slipstream. :rolleyes:

[mstillhere]

Fred's great qualifying effort, a fast ferrari, and his pole makes it his race unless: (1) he blows the start, or (2) has some mechanical problems, or (3) the mesage come from the pits: "Fred, Massa is faster than you. I repeat, Massa is faster than you, un-der-stand?"

I have a feeling that JB and Alonso may take each other out of the race and Massa will win if they don't Ferrari would be first in any case.

[truefan72]

The only problem is my pickems are buggered. :(

mine too

but if Hamilton finishes in the top 3 today I will be happy as long as he stretches his lead from webber. But funny enough, I want Webber to finish ahead of Vettel and don't mind Button and Alonso ahead in no particular order.

man, I can't wait for the race. I don't know why but for some reason this one has me all excited. Perhaps because it is so crucial in so many ways for the top guys and that the WDC picture might become much clearer afterwards and how the teams will have to move forward accordingly.

[Roamy]

Should be sunny tomorrow so I guess we won't see the 7 time WDC storm though the field :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[pino]

......................and Ferrari, don't forget!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I won't...do not worry !!! :D

[SGWilko]

Even if Button somehow leads into turn 1, unlikely unless Alonso stuffs up because the Ferraris get off the line better than anything else, then he's going to be a sitting duck on the straights as he was one of the slowest cars through the speed traps.

Yes, but he will have the benefit of being able to outbrake anyone subscribing to the skinny wing club on approach to the first corner.....

[Robinho]

lol

now that would be something.

The likely radio message would be from Alonso to the team telling Massa to slow down then Smedley coming unto the radio to Massa saying.

"Felipe,you are faster than Alonso, give him room so you guys don't crash. do you un-der-stand?"

If massa were to be faster that Fred, would Ferrari let him get Ahead of alonso so he could win the race for ferrari or would they risk him being stuck behind Alonso and probably getting into trouble with Button,Vettel Hamilton Webber, who might eventually pass him, cause some damage to the car and then pass Alonso? what would ferrari do?

...just sayin'

i believe the message will take the form of:

"Felipe, I've just seen Alonso's mum, and she is knitting a nice PULLOVER for Fernando, can you confirm you understand?" ;)

[gloomyDAY]

Are you guys going to have a chat session? If so, share the link.

[Valve Bounce]

I won't...do not worry !!! :D \\Three years ago when I was in Bologna, I watched the Australian GP together with the guy in charge of the Camping Ground, and all he wanted was Ferrari to win. He was so happy.

[ioan]

Are you guys going to have a chat session? If so, share the link.

What for?! Isn't there a race to watch?

[ioan]

Great Button!

Stupid Lewis! :down:

Again trying to win the race in the first few corners.
100% his fault.

Also :up: for Felipe for pushing Alonso at the start!

[Rollo]

If Button is running more downforce than most, does that suggest that the MB powerplant is producing a whole whack of power, and if you compare it to say Webber's Red Bull, that the Renault powerplant is down, and they're having to compensate by running less wing?

Lewis, you are a dead set dill. There was never any space up there. +10 for brainfade.

[ioan]

If Button is running more downforce than most, does that suggest that the MB powerplant is producing a whole whack of power, and if you compare it to say Webber's Red Bull, that the Renault powerplant is down, and they're having to compensate by running less wing?

Not really. Button is also the slower on the straights by quite a margin.

[Hawkmoon]

"Engine problems" see Webber pass Vettel. Surely this isn't team orders because Red Bull don't do that, do they Mr Horner? ;)

[ShiftingGears]

"Engine problems" see Webber pass Vettel. Surely this isn't team orders because Red Bull don't do that, do they Mr Horner? ;)

Haha. I was just thinking of that possibility.

[Hawkmoon]

Haha. I was just thinking of that possibility.

Considering Vettel is now running up to speed again it's a bit suspect if you ask me.

[ioan]

I'm going to fall asleep with this bore-fest.
'mighty' Alonso doesn't even try to use his higher speed on the straights to overtake, is he expecting Domenicalli to order Button to let him by?!

What's with the ambulance in the pit lane?!

[ioan]

"Engine problems" see Webber pass Vettel. Surely this isn't team orders because Red Bull don't do that, do they Mr Horner? ;)

Horner is a 1st class hypocrite, nothing new there.

[ioan]

McLaren mechanics lost Button the race there. :(

[Hawkmoon]

Surely Hulkenberg has to yield or get a penalty?

[ioan]

Surely Hulkenberg has to yield or get a penalty?

Or maybe Webber should not whine as much as Alonso?!

[ioan]

Vettel doing an impressive first stint and if the team do their job at his pit stop he should be again ahead of Webber, but I doubt that RBR are that fair.

[Hawkmoon]

McLaren mechanics lost Button the race there. :(

I don't think you can blame them. I'm a little surprised that Ferrari decided pit Alonso onlt 1 lap after Button. Surely the tires would of held up for a few more laps giving Alonso a chance to build a bigger gap? That would have taken the pressure off the mechanics.

Worked either way so I'm not complaining! :D

[Hawkmoon]

Vettel doing an impressive first stint and if the team do their job at his pit stop he should be again ahead of Webber, but I doubt that RBR are that fair.

He's got to watch those pesky "engine problems" though. You never know when they'll occur.

[motetarip]

I'm not sure Vettel knew any 'engine trouble' was planned, he sure did squeal like a stuck pig when it happened!

[ioan]

That's a great drive from Vettel after he had to give up his place to Webber earlier in the race! :up:

[ioan]

He's got to watch those pesky "engine problems" though. You never know when they'll occur.

He made sure he's got a buffer! ;)

[ioan]

I'm not sure Vettel knew any 'engine trouble' was planned, he sure did squeal like a stuck pig when it happened!

C'mon, what happened with the engine problem? It only appeared for a sector and solved itself?!

[Robinho]

so much for Red Bul team orders, i think Vettel had a real problem earlier, if not he deserves an Oscar, he was panicking that his engine was cooked

[Robinho]

C'mon, what happened with the engine problem? It only appeared for a sector and solved itself?!

you know thats not true, he lost 4 seconds over 2 laps and he was frantically pressing buttons and changing settings on the steering wheel. whatever they tried cured the electronic glitch - remember Brazil '07 and Hamilton, that was only a sector or 2 also

[VkmSpouge]

Excellent race by Fernando Alonso, he drove a perfect race. I think Jenson Button also drove perfectly but was ultimately beaten by the quicker driver. Both Button and Alonso well and truely in the title hunt.
Good work by Sebastian Vettel after that engine problem to finish ahead of Nico Rosberg and Mark Webber. Webber can complain about Nico Hulkenberg but ultimately even if the Williams had gotten out of his way it would have meant he spent a few more laps staring at the rear wing of Rosberg. Good race for the Williams drivers though with a double points finish.
Lewis Hamilton's mistake has cost himself yet more points, he really should have backed out of trying to pass Felipe Massa.

[Ranger]

so much for Red Bul team orders, i think Vettel had a real problem earlier, if not he deserves an Oscar, he was panicking that his engine was cooked

Yep, that's how I saw it. But we'll see I guess and leave the conspiracy theories for now...

[motetarip]

C'mon, what happened with the engine problem? It only appeared for a sector and solved itself?!

Lol it did sound quite unhealthy for a few sectors, it's not unusual for that to happen but not in recent times I admit. If Vettel's reaction on the radio was fake though he's a damn good actor!

[Robinho]

Great drive Alonso, although i don't think hitting Button up the arse at the 1st corner helped the extra downforce setup much! Still a great performance from 'Nando and Ferrari, i think McLaren threw it away with the stop, should have stayed out longer, especially having seen what Vettel managed to do.

very impressive from Button as well, great drive with Alonso so close, no mistakes at all and could well have won it, but it was Ferraris day

[Hawkmoon]

You what was wrong with this race? Vettel stopped on lap 52, on the softer tyre and was lapping fast enough that he looked like he could have done another 50 laps.

Bridgestone should have brought less durable tyres. It might have livened things up a bit.

[spudrsca]

McLaren mechanics lost Button the race there. :(

They have been the slowest of the top team this year in the pitstop.

Not a good week-end for Mclaren. I don't understand why they had big rear wing with f-duct or very low downforce without f-duct.

One of the worst week-end for them. This should have been a 1-2, I think they wasted too much time on the f-duct or not.

And they shouldn't have release Hamilton in the middle of the pack on his last stint yesterday.

And to top that, Hamilton made a mystake trying to be at the front too early.

[truefan72]

Great drive Alonso, although i don't think hitting Button up the arse at the 1st corner helped the extra downforce setup much! Still a great performance from 'Nando and Ferrari, i think McLaren threw it away with the stop, should have stayed out longer, especially having seen what Vettel managed to do.

very impressive from Button as well, great drive with Alonso so close, no mistakes at all and could well have won it, but it was Ferraris day

the only reason alonso won today is because the stupid mclaren engineers panicked and folded when it was clear Jenson could have continued for another 10 laps or even longer. He could have done what Vettel did and come in with 1 lap to go with a significant lead

My hats off to Vettel though. That was a brilliant strategy.
To me Alonso did nothing special today, hit Button at the start, could not pass him the entire race and basically took his win in the pits. All he had to do was stay in Button's shadow the entire race and take advantage of a slightly quicker pit stop and less traffic.

[truefan72]

They have been the slowest of the top team this year in the pitstop.

Not a good week-end for Mclaren. I don't understand why they had big rear wing with f-duct or very low downforce without f-duct.

One of the worst week-end for them. This should have been a 1-2, I think they wasted too much time on the f-duct or not.

And they shouldn't have release Hamilton in the middle of the pack on his last stint yesterday.

And to top that, Hamilton made a mystake trying to be at the front too early.

yep on all points

[Daika]

Boring race, not much happend after the first chicane.

[truefan72]

Boring race, not much happend after the first chicane.

and it was over in 1 hour 15 minutes

maybe they need to make the race 65 laps
with today's cars we might see some more attrition as well as compromised tire and fuel management thus bringing about better racing. I can only recall 1 competitive overtake on the track and that was Webber for 6th from Hulkenberg

funny how some here criticize tracks like Valencia, hungaroring and turkey, while undoubtedly after Bahrain this Monza race has been the most boring of the year (unless you are a ferrari fan, which is funny as it was a ferrari win that race too :| )

[DazzlaF1]

MARK WEBBER 187
LEWIS HAMILTON 182
FERNANDO ALONSO 166
JENSON BUTTON 165
SEBASTIAN VETTEL 163

Only 24 points covering those 5, frighteningly close

[UltimateDanGTR]

Mclaren needed both drivers to get a strong result today before the expectedly red bull suited tracks in asia and south america. This did not happen, and the team and lewis have only themselves to blame.

still, at least it hots the championship up even more.

[Hawkmoon]

the only reason alonso won today is because the stupid mclaren engineers panicked and folded when it was clear Jenson could have continued for another 10 laps or even longer. He could have done what Vettel did and come in with 1 lap to go with a significant lead

My hats off to Vettel though. That was a brilliant strategy.
To me Alonso did nothing special today, hit Button at the start, could not pass him the entire race and basically took his win in the pits. All he had to do was stay in Button's shadow the entire race and take advantage of a slightly quicker pit stop and less traffic.

I'm surprised at the timing of the stops for both teams. Clearly the stops weren't due to tyre degredation.

I don't think Button would have been able to build a big enough gap over Alonso even if he did pull a Vettel. Once Alonso got some clear air he was always going to lap faster than Button. The Ferrari was simply faster.

[ioan]

you know thats not true, he lost 4 seconds over 2 laps and he was frantically pressing buttons and changing settings on the steering wheel. whatever they tried cured the electronic glitch - remember Brazil '07 and Hamilton, that was only a sector or 2 also

Wrong example dude, in Brazil 2007 Lewis pushed the wrong button and he created a problem himself.

If an engine really loses power then good luck repairing it by pushing buttons on the steering wheel.
Subtle team orders from RBR, let's be fair and not blame only Ferrari for using them.

Vettel obeyed the orders but made sure to give them food for thought a lap before the end of the race.

[ioan]

I can only recall 1 competitive overtake on the track and that was Webber for 6th from Hulkenberg

To be fair on Webber he also overtook Kubica.

[truefan72]

I'm surprised at the timing of the stops for both teams. Clearly the stops weren't due to tyre degredation.

I don't think Button would have been able to build a big enough gap over Alonso even if he did pull a Vettel. Once Alonso got some clear air he was always going to lap faster than Button. The Ferrari was simply faster.

probably, but perhaps traffic might have played a part or some faster laps for button and a quicker stop. I think Vettel did his fastes laps at the very end of his long stint. At the very least they should have waited for Ferrari to pit first and then gone from there.

All this talk from Whitemarsh abut the new set of tires being faster is nonsense imo. especially if that meant falling behind and losing a race win. It was just a typically conservative poor call by the team rather than showing some imagination. It is as if they don't watch the race but just the telemetry screens and then decide to bring in the race leader even if it compromises his chances at a win, because that is the "strategy" they decided on before the race.

[F1boat]

MARK WEBBER 187
LEWIS HAMILTON 182
FERNANDO ALONSO 166
JENSON BUTTON 165
SEBASTIAN VETTEL 163

Only 24 points covering those 5, frighteningly close

Yes, it looks amazing! And the race was terrific, FORZA FERRARI!

[motetarip]

To be fair on Webber he also overtook Kubica.

and Schumacher

[spudrsca]

yep on all points

I think the mood in the mclaren camp will not be good.
Button with the strategy, Hamilton with the mystake and also my gut feeling that he was tricked by the button side of the garage.

[ioan]

the only reason alonso won today is because the stupid mclaren engineers panicked and folded when it was clear Jenson could have continued for another 10 laps or even longer. He could have done what Vettel did and come in with 1 lap to go with a significant lead

My hats off to Vettel though. That was a brilliant strategy.
To me Alonso did nothing special today, hit Button at the start, could not pass him the entire race and basically took his win in the pits. All he had to do was stay in Button's shadow the entire race and take advantage of a slightly quicker pit stop and less traffic.

Completely agree.

Alonso can't pass! Ralf must be honored to have such a heir. :D

[Robinho]

Wrong example dude, in Brazil 2007 Lewis pushed the wrong button and he created a problem himself.

If an engine really loses power then good luck repairing it by pushing buttons on the steering wheel.
Subtle team orders from RBR, let's be fair and not blame only Ferrari for using them.

Vettel obeyed the orders but made sure to give them food for thought a lap before the end of the race.

to quote your good self, that is just subjective BS, I've never seen anything to say that Lewis in '07 was anything other than a glitch ;)

If today there was an electronic glitch that caused a loss of power, a different setting might solve that. Vettel just said (on the BBC interview) they went back to standard mode and was in clear air and it improved. May have been overheating from running in the pack also that caused a temporary loss of power.

Why would Vettel back off that much just to let Mark past, and then the team run him for so long to get the places back if they were runnning team orders. They could easily have insisted he stopped in the same period as the others and it never would have been an issue that he might come out ahead of Mark

[Hawkmoon]

probably, but perhaps traffic might have played a part or some faster laps for button and a quicker stop. I think Vettel did his fastes laps at the very end of his long stint. At the very least they should have waited for Ferrari to pit first and then gone from there.

All this talk from Whitemarsh abut the new set of tires being faster is nonsense imo. especially if that meant falling behind and losing a race win. It was just a typically conservative poor call by the team rather than showing some imagination. It is as if they don't watch the race but just the telemetry screens and then decide to bring in the race leader even if it compromises his chances at a win, because that is the "strategy" they decided on before the race.

I agree. I think McLaren needed to react to Ferrari and not the other way around. Let Alonso pit and then stop the next lap. By stopping first they gave the initiative to Ferrari, which the Reds gleefully took.

[pallone col bracciale]

Forza Ferrari!!!!

Grazie Fernando!!!

Magnifico!!!

[Robinho]

they've just shown the back of Jensons car in the pitlane. there is a piece of Diffuser missing and the endplate of the rear wing if quite mashed, can't help think that Button could have had a better race if he'd not lost some extra downforce. Don't know if that would have made the difference as Alonso may have been able to stay close enough to make the jump, but Alonso was lucky 3 times in the 1st corner;

1 he could have lost a chunk of front wing on the back of the McLaren
2 he damaged the back of the McLaren slowing it
3 he nearly lost a chunk of front wing banging wheels with his teammate

great drive after that, but the 1st corner was a bit clumsy and he was very lucky to not damage himself and that he damaged the McLaren

[Hawkmoon]

to quote your good self, that is just subjective BS, I've never seen anything to say that Lewis in '07 was anything other than a glitch ;)

It was a glitch alright. A glitch with the part that goes between the steering wheel and the engine. I thought it was common knowledge that Hamilton hit the wrong button on the wheel?

I don't think this was a case of team orders. Horner would have to have seriously large brass balls to pull a stunt like that after his comments the last few days.

[ioan]

I'm surprised at the timing of the stops for both teams. Clearly the stops weren't due to tyre degredation.

McLaren pitted Button as soon as Rosberg pitted and they were as sure as possible that Jenson will come out in clear air.
As soon as that happened Ferrari had to counter by pitting Alonso to cover for The case where Button would have been faster on new hard tires then Alonso on used soft tires.

None of them would have risked to go with a very different strategy from that of their direct competitor.

Simple, really.

[truefan72]

I think the mood in the mclaren camp will not be good.
Button with the strategy, Hamilton with the mystake and also my gut feeling that he was tricked by the button side of the garage.

not really think Hamilton was on the preferred and better strategy, especially given his excellent driving style. He doesn't need as much downforce as Button and the speed advantage was already clear as he basically caught up to the 2 ferrari's in no time.

Over the course of the race Hamilton would have been right there and it would have been a thrilling 3 way fight with Massa a few second behind. Instead we got total disappointed.

[ioan]

and Schumacher

Right.

[ioan]

If today there was an electronic glitch that caused a loss of power, a different setting might solve that.

And even make the car faster on top of that! Strange isn't it? They should have used this new setting from the start maybe! :D

[ioan]

I agree. I think McLaren needed to react to Ferrari and not the other way around. Let Alonso pit and then stop the next lap. By stopping first they gave the initiative to Ferrari, which the Reds gleefully took.

That is true, however I think that they made the mistake of taking Liuzzi's sector times as a reference for how much faster the new hard tires were. Not exactly a constant reference, anyway they could have also been 1 tenth faster in the pits and Button would have won it.

[spudrsca]

not really think Hamilton was on the preferred and better strategy, especially given his excellent driving style. He doesn't need as much downforce as Button and the speed advantage was already clear as he basically caught up to the 2 ferrari's in no time.

Over the course of the race Hamilton would have been right there and it would have been a thrilling 3 way fight with Massa a few second behind. Instead we got total disappointed.

Possible but I still don't understand why there is such a gap between the two set-up.
It should have been possible to run a rear wing with less downforce than Button and the f-duct for Hamilton.

[ioan]

not really think Hamilton was on the preferred and better strategy, especially given his excellent driving style. He doesn't need as much downforce as Button and the speed advantage was already clear as he basically caught up to the 2 ferrari's in no time.

Over the course of the race Hamilton would have been right there and it would have been a thrilling 3 way fight with Massa a few second behind. Instead we got total disappointed.

Sure thing Lewis robbed us of a good race today.

[steveaki13]

they've just shown the back of Jensons car in the pitlane. there is a piece of Diffuser missing and the endplate of the rear wing if quite mashed, can't help think that Button could have had a better race if he'd not lost some extra downforce. Don't know if that would have made the difference as Alonso may have been able to stay close enough to make the jump, but Alonso was lucky 3 times in the 1st corner;



Yer

The rear wing was in quite a bad way, must have affected Button's pace slightly, may have just given him a chance to build a couple of seconds around the stops and allow for pit stop and out lap.

[truefan72]

to quote your good self, that is just subjective BS, I've never seen anything to say that Lewis in '07 was anything other than a glitch ;)

If today there was an electronic glitch that caused a loss of power, a different setting might solve that. Vettel just said (on the BBC interview) they went back to standard mode and was in clear air and it improved. May have been overheating from running in the pack also that caused a temporary loss of power.

Why would Vettel back off that much just to let Mark past, and then the team run him for so long to get the places back if they were runnning team orders. They could easily have insisted he stopped in the same period as the others and it never would have been an issue that he might come out ahead of Mark

TBH I do think it was subtle team orders and I do think that Vettel did his part admirably. All credit for vettel doing his thing afterwards and for the team figuring out that they could gain more points by altering Vettels strategy.
It is one thing to help out the team when needed but also to maximize ones points if the situation calls for it.

I think Red bull made the best of it today and finally showed some maturity and cleverness in their race management, so I grudgingly salute them today.
http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/icons/icon6.gif

[Robinho]

And even make the car faster on top of that! Strange isn't it? They should have used this new setting from the start maybe! :D

You don't think the driver might have had something to do with that? he was now in clear air and trying incredibly hard to try to catch up his lost time. plus the cars do get quicker through the race as the fuels burns off.

They could have very, very easily kept Vettel behind if they wanted, they clearly didn't, there is no space for a conspiracy theory here today, however hard you look

[ioan]

Yer

The rear wing was in quite a bad way, must have affected Button's pace slightly, may have just given him a chance to build a couple of seconds around the stops and allow for pit stop and out lap.

1 tenth was all he needed and sure the Alonso inflicted damages might have made the difference.

[ioan]

You don't think the driver might have had something to do with that? he was now in clear air and trying incredibly hard to try to catch up his lost time. plus the cars do get quicker through the race as the fuels burns off.

They could have very, very easily kept Vettel behind if they wanted, they clearly didn't, there is no space for a conspiracy theory here today, however hard you look

He was probably trying very hard even before the 'engine problem' arrived and went away seamlessly.

I am just being even handed as I was when Ferrari used team orders, so don't preach to me about conspiracy theories, find a serious argument if you want to argue.
Where did the engine power loss go?! It came and stayed only as long as Webber needed to drive buy, however it disappeared before MS did the same. Strange, very strange and biased problem that was.

I am looking forward to read a detailed technical description, from you, about how the problem occurred out of the blue and then was solved without external intervention, you're welcome to surprise me.

[truefan72]

Possible but I still don't understand why there is such a gap between the two set-up.
It should have been possible to run a rear wing with less downforce than Button and the f-duct for Hamilton.

I really think the qualy 3 lap times where due to Hamilton not getting a clear track rather than a poor setup choice. After all he was storming through the first 2 sessions along with an excellent time in FP3.

Especially with the low fuel nature of qualy these days. I think his race pace would have been up there and coupled with his ability to get more out of the car than his teammate, we would have certainly seen him in 3rd position for the first part of the race, and at the very least made Alonso the nervous meat in a Mclaren sandwich
...and we all know how Alonso gets when Hamilton is in the neighborhood ;)

[ioan]

TBH I do think it was subtle team orders and I do think that Vettel did his part admirably. All credit for vettel doing his thing afterwards and for the team figuring out that they could gain more points by altering Vettels strategy.
It is one thing to help out the team when needed but also to maximize ones points if the situation calls for it.

I think Red bull made the best of it today and finally showed some maturity and cleverness in their race management, so I grudgingly salute them today.
http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/icons/icon6.gif

Mateschitz was there today, this might explain why they did everything better for once.

[Robinho]

TBH I do think it was subtle team orders and I do think that Vettel did his part admirably. All credit for vettel doing his thing afterwards and for the team figuring out that they could gain more points by altering Vettels strategy.
It is one thing to help out the team when needed but also to maximize ones points if the situation calls for it.

I think Red bull made the best of it today and finally showed some maturity and cleverness in their race management, so I grudgingly salute them today.
http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/icons/icon6.gif

subtle team orders to fake an engine problem, presumabley with a coded message, drop 4 seconds back and then drive the balls off the car to recover, whilst the team changed strategy to get him back in front of Mark.

thats just too far fetched. The only person on the BBC who thought it might be more than an actual problem was Eddie Jordan, and he is coming up with an ever increasing amount of BS, saying the 1st thing he thinks of on the off chance that one of them actually comes true.

[steveaki13]

Although the Grand Prix won't go down as a classic race. I was enthralled by the front battle until the stops.

Button not the pace to pull away, Alonso putting on consistent pressure (if not emense Pressure) and Button made no major mistakes in the 30 laps in that situation and with Massa just behind to pounce if the top 2 got together.

All this made for a battle which kept fixed.
As said above though without this battle, the race would have been a poor one.

[truefan72]

Mateschitz was there today, this might explain why they did everything better for once.

lol, how true.
As was Luca DI M for Ferrari

In that case Richard Branson needs to be in the garage front and center as well

[ioan]

lol, how true.
As was Luca DI M for Ferrari

In that case Richard Branson needs to be in the garage front and center as well

Branson should have never believed that a competitive F1 car can be designed by CFD only, but that's another subject that we already extensively discussed.

On the other hand, how many strategy errors did Virgin commit this season?

[Ent]

He was probably trying very hard even before the 'engine problem' arrived and went away seamlessly.

Yes, he was, but he was behind Hulkenburg and Kubica, so he couldn't do the speed he was capable of. When in clean air (after he had dropped back), he was thus faster. No mystery there at all. No car in front = fastest possible speed. Car in front = only as fast as the car in front is going.


Where did the engine power loss go?! It came and stayed only as long as Webber needed to drive buy, however it disappeared before MS did the same. Strange, very strange and biased problem that was.

There have been several cases in the past where cars have had problems with their electronics and have had to reset the settings to clear the problem. It's not unheard of. As for team orders, I call BS. If it was team orders, then why did the team try so hard (and succeed) at putting Vettel back in front of Webber? That makes no sense at all!

If you want to relate it to the Ferrari incident, it would be like telling Massa "Alsonso is faster than you", Alsonso passing Massa, then the team using pit strategy to put Massa back in front of Alonso, so he could finish in front. That's a situation that would not be allowed to happen under team orders. Complete BS.

[ioan]

As for team orders, I call BS. If it was team orders, then why did the team try so hard (and succeed) at putting Vettel back in front of Webber? That makes no sense at all!

They most probably split the strategies and gave the one that looked better to Webber only to find out that the one Vettel had was the right one to have given the circumstances (i.e. time that Webber lost behind Kubica and Hulkenberg).

Alex Wurz was 100% sure that it was team orders and I think he knows quite a bit about F1 cars and what is possible to do with an engine that is really losing power.

[Robinho]

He was probably trying very hard even before the 'engine problem' arrived and went away seamlessly.

I am just being even handed as I was when Ferrari used team orders, so don't preach to me about conspiracy theories, find a serious argument if you want to argue.
Where did the engine power loss go?! It came and stayed only as long as Webber needed to drive buy, however it disappeared before MS did the same. Strange, very strange and biased problem that was.

I am looking forward to read a detailed technical description, from you, about how the problem occurred out of the blue and then was solved without external intervention, you're welcome to surprise me.

why do you need a detailed technical explaination - write to Renault if you want one. is it that far fetched that a change of engine setting could have cured it. Vettel alluded that maybe they were running too lean. He was in traffic and not showing much sign of overtaking so maybe at the time he was on a lesser engine setting to save a bit of fuel for the pit stop laps to jump the cars ahead.

are you catergorically saying that an engine management fault or fuel starvation or similar glitch could not occur under one setting and be cured by moving to a richer fuel mix or higher revs? and that the drivers cannot affect such a change from their steering wheel?

Why is that not a serious arguement for you? for me it is far more beliveable than the team choreagraphing a switch of place with a fake engine problem then changing their minds and saving Seb's race by taking on a different strategy. If they wanted Mark in front they could have pitted Seb a couple of laps earlier than Mark and been done with it. there was little or nothing to gain by switching the places at that stage in the race anyway.

anyway, the telemetry would show very easily if Vettel backed off for a couple of seconds, or if he was full throttle and the engine lost power. and you also know that the engineers cannot affect the engine from the pits. The FIA could very easily investigate the issue, especially against the current background of the Ferrari swap and subsequent fallout if something was fishy.

it just makes no sense to affect a drive by swapping the places and then doing something completley different for the other 2/3rds of the race

[truefan72]

subtle team orders to fake an engine problem, presumabley with a coded message, drop 4 seconds back and then drive the balls off the car to recover, whilst the team changed strategy to get him back in front of Mark.

thats just too far fetched. The only person on the BBC who thought it might be more than an actual problem was Eddie Jordan, and he is coming up with an ever increasing amount of BS, saying the 1st thing he thinks of on the off chance that one of them actually comes true.

call me a cynic, but I think these modern f1 drivers are quite adept in making their cars behave in certain manners, and along knowing what buttons to push to slow the car down for a lap doesn't seem like an outlandish thing.

To me, with modern F1 cars, real engine problems are not that easily remedied and are usually eventually terminal, especially in the heat and high revs demand of Monza track. So I'd say it was a bit of cleverness by Vettel to allow his teammate to pass and then pretty much resuming his race accordingly.

sometimes when a situation looks like a team order to let Webber by, it probably is as simple as that. We may never really know. But we do know the outcome of the situation quite clearly

[Robinho]

They most probably split the strategies and gave the one that looked better to Webber only to find out that the one Vettel had was the right one to have given the circumstances (i.e. time that Webber lost behind Kubica and Hulkenberg).

Alex Wurz was 100% sure that it was team orders and I think he knows quite a bit about F1 cars and what is possible to do with an engine that is really losing power.

so was Eddie Jordan, and he's not managed to hit the correct answer 1st time all year. whilst Coulthard and Brundle both backed the engine problem story, as did Vettel when spoken too, very convincingly.

did Wurz say that at the time, or at the end of the race when they'd got Vettel back in front?

[Robinho]

call me a cynic, but I think these modern f1 drivers are quite adept in making their cars behave in certain manners, and along knowing what buttons to push to slow the car down for a lap doesn't seem like an outlandish thing.

To me, with modern F1 cars, real engine problems are not that easily remedied and are usually eventually terminal, especially in the heat and high revs demand of Monza track. So I'd say it was a bit of cleverness by Vettel to allow his teammate to pass and then pretty much resuming his race accordingly.

sometimes when a situation looks like a team order to let Webber by, it probably is as simple as that. We may never really know. But we do know the outcome of the situation quite clearly

it looked a bit fishy to me too at the time, but the team orders thing doesn't fit in any way with the actual outcome.

sometimes when a situation looks like a temporary problem it probably is as simple as that.

[ioan]

why do you need a detailed technical explaination - write to Renault if you want one.

I am not having an argument with Renault.


is it that far fetched that a change of engine setting could have cured it. Vettel alluded that maybe they were running too lean.

Yes it is. I don't know what Vettel alluded to, but sure thing he was trying to make it clear that the engine is dying.

[ioan]

it looked a bit fishy to me too at the time, but the team orders thing doesn't fit in any way with the actual outcome.

That is down to Webber not being able to do his part as required, i.e. not get stuck behind Kubica after his pit stop and overtake Hulkenberg in much less than 10 laps.

We were not realistically expecting RBR to ask Vettel to lose places to both Rosberg and Webber, did we?

Anyway I think we pretty much exhausted this subject, so I'll stay by my opinion. :)

[Roamy]

Ah a day as it should be - Ferrari and Alonso on top at Monza. Great job to all.

[truefan72]

it looked a bit fishy to me too at the time, but the team orders thing doesn't fit in any way with the actual outcome.

sometimes when a situation looks like a temporary problem it probably is as simple as that.

lol fair enough

but i still think it was an orchestrated move, so brilliant indeed that it has you believing the engine trouble story.

Or perhaps I am actually seeing more than what it really is. But either way, it did help Webber at that point.
Eh, who knows :|

[ioan]

so was Eddie Jordan, and he's not managed to hit the correct answer 1st time all year. whilst Coulthard and Brundle both backed the engine problem story, as did Vettel when spoken too, very convincingly.

did Wurz say that at the time, or at the end of the race when they'd got Vettel back in front?

He said it when it happened.

And comparing EJ's level of F1 knowledge to that of Wurz is pushing things way to far. ;)

[Robinho]

I am not having an argument with Renault.



Yes it is. I don't know what Vettel alluded to, but sure thing he was trying to make it clear that the engine is dying.

no your not, but you know very well that neither of us has access to detailed technical data to explain the loss of power. Red Bull and the Renault engine guys said at the time there was an engine problem - you are disputing this so maybe you should take it up with them also?

Vettel said in his interview that the engine lost power, they were unsure of the cause, but they may have been running too lean at the time. He said they changed back to the standard engine setting and was able to run as normal again.

This is not so far fetched.

[steveaki13]

I just posted this on another thread.

But Horner just announced on BBC it could have been a loose rip off going into the airbox, and then cleared after a while. :confused:

[ioan]

no your not, but you know very well that neither of us has access to detailed technical data to explain the loss of power.

Still both of us could use technical knowledge and a dab of common sense and realize that electronics can not remedy a really dying engine.

[steveaki13]

On the red button forum, not only Eddie Jordan confusing the situation, now Eddie Irvine arguing back. :p

My Head Hurts :laugh:

[ioan]

I just posted this on another thread.

But Horner just announced on BBC it could have been a loose rip off going into the airbox, and then cleared after a while. :confused:


Thanks for the info! :up:
Good one! Where did it clear from there?!
Horner takes F1 fans for idiots, just like LdM, DOmenicalli and co did not so long ago.

[Robinho]

That is down to Webber not being able to do his part as required, i.e. not get stuck behind Kubica after his pit stop and overtake Hulkenberg in much less than 10 laps.

We were not realistically expecting RBR to ask Vettel to lose places to both Rosberg and Webber, did we?

Anyway I think we pretty much exhausted this subject, so I'll stay by my opinion. :)

no, but they could have brought Vettel in at any point and it would not have looked dodgy. They could have taken an extra second or 2 to change a wheel and it would not have looked odd. They could have told Seb to turn down the engine when he was running long and meant he lost a couple of seconds. They could have done any number of things to prevent Vettel being in the position to jump Webber again, but didn't, which makes the alleged orchestrated switch, that early in the race, even more implausible.

By all means stick to your opinion, i do think you are desperatley searching for something that is not there, partly because of what happened with Ferrari, and partly due to your support for Vettel

[steveaki13]

Thanks for the info! :up:
Good one! Where did it clear from there?!
Horner takes F1 fans for idiots, just like LdM, DOmenicalli and co did not so long ago.

No worries, had to share that Gem.

He didn't hide it well, had a smurk on his face while trying to convince us.

EJ, saying to him something along the lines of "Yer sure whatever" ;)

[Robinho]

Still both of us could use technical knowledge and a dab of common sense and realize that electronics can not remedy a really dying engine.

so maybe it wasn't really dying, but there was a temporary problem?

[truefan72]

On the red button forum, not only Eddie Jordan confusing the situation, now Eddie Irvine arguing back. :p

My Head Hurts :laugh:


that's what you get when 2 eddies occupy the same space time

[Robinho]

He said it when it happened.

And comparing EJ's level of F1 knowledge to that of Wurz is pushing things way to far. ;)

ok, what did he say at the end of the race when Vettel came out ahead?

I'm just saying that they are both wrong, and unfortunately for Wurz he shares his opinion with mad Eddie

[Robinho]

don't you think that if it was a fake problem they would have a prepared and plausible explaination describing exactly the problem and how they were able to solve it?

[truefan72]

no, but they could have brought Vettel in at any point and it would not have looked dodgy. They could have taken an extra second or 2 to change a wheel and it would not have looked odd. They could have told Seb to turn down the engine when he was running long and meant he lost a couple of seconds. They could have done any number of things to prevent Vettel being in the position to jump Webber again, but didn't, which makes the alleged orchestrated switch, that early in the race, even more implausible.

By all means stick to your opinion, i do think you are desperatley searching for something that is not there, partly because of what happened with Ferrari, and partly due to your support for Vettel

don't mean to belabor the point, but it is easier to execute a team swap on the track than in the pits where, the time lost is compounded significantly. Besides, all it did was give Webber the opportunity to maximize his points while not really damaging Vettel's race or significantly affecting his points earned vis-a-vis the WDC. They are on two different tracks to attaining the WDC and in this race, that move helped webber more than hurt vettel.

[ioan]

no, but they could have brought Vettel in at any point and it would not have looked dodgy.

Is Webber worth implementing team orders twice a race?! Hardly.
Do you believe that Vettel would have accepted it silently? What about Marko? they both would have went ballistic on something like that, and Mateschitz was present to send Horner packing as a result.

Everything has a limit, Webber got his chance but misused it.

[ioan]

don't you think that if it was a fake problem they would have a prepared and plausible explaination describing exactly the problem and how they were able to solve it?

I am yet to see a team that has prepared a good enough explanation to their team orders post Austria 2002.

For whatever reason they always come out with controversial explanations that make them look like a bunch of retards.

[Robinho]

so Red Bull are actively favoring one driver for the title by maximising his points, but only once a race.

i don't particularly think Webber is worth that much, no, but at the moment he represents the teams best chance of the title and if they are going to favour him they need to do it properly and with the courage of their convictions to follow through on what they start

[ioan]

ok, what did he say at the end of the race when Vettel came out ahead?

I'm just saying that they are both wrong, and unfortunately for Wurz he shares his opinion with mad Eddie

He probably maintained his POV as he didn't say anything else then how well Vettel did in spite of what happened earlier.

[ioan]

so Red Bull are actively favoring one driver for the title by maximising his points, but only once a race.

i don't particularly think Webber is worth that much, no, but at the moment he represents the teams best chance of the title and if they are going to favour him they need to do it properly and with the courage of their convictions to follow through on what they start

Red Bull's problem is serious when it comes to team orders.
1st of all what if Webber falters even if, like today, Vettel gives places up for him?
2nd Webber is not the future of RB, Vettel is.
3rd RB know that they can only go as far before Vettel tells them to F off and leaves to McLaren or Ferrari.
4th Marko will not keep his mouth shut if he thinks that things are going too far.

It's a bit difficult to have convictions in this situations, especially for a rather weak person like Horner.

[ioan]

so maybe it wasn't really dying, but there was a temporary problem?

Yep, his foot was not pushing the pedal hard enough.

That's it let's move on now, we are doing circles around the subject way to long.

[ioan]

EJ, saying to him something along the lines of "Yer sure whatever" ;)

:laugh: :up:

[Robinho]

He probably maintained his POV as he didn't say anything else then how well Vettel did in spite of what happened earlier.

"probably"

agree with you though, we're going nowhere new on this one, unless or until some actual support comes for either side i don't think we're doing a very good job of convincing each other!

[Robinho]

well here we go, not an engine problem, but actually a stuck brake (they've had brake issues before this season) Engine telemetry showed no issues, but they've discovered the brake was stuck for a while after Ascari, prompting Vettel to think the engine had lost power.

Presumabley the telemetry won't show Vettel applying brake pressure at the same time, but ntil we see it i assume it won't lay the conspiracy theorists to bed

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86668

[Robinho]

there is a clip here at Youtube of Yamamoto's pitstop incident, i don't think we can blame the driver really, the lollipop man was too early and the techniciam was behind Yamamotos head. was a nasty incident, but apparently the guy is "not badly injured"

Warning - the clip isn't too nice, so don't view if your easily upset

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9I7FE2XP3I

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2010/09/unsafe-release-you-can-say-that-again/

Hispania have been fined $20k for an unsafe release

[gloomyDAY]

I'm confused as to how Webber passed Vettel, but the Ozzy still managed to finish two places behind ze German.

Can anyone clarify this for me?

[ioan]

I'm confused as to how Webber passed Vettel, but the Ozzy still managed to finish two places behind ze German.

Can anyone clarify this for me?

Obviously the better driver finished ahead! ;)

[gloomyDAY]

Obviously the better driver finished ahead! ;) hehe :up:

[Saint Devote]

Ferrari did not deserve to win today - but the Mclaren crew messed up with Button's pit stop usually 3.6 to 3.8 seconds and today it was 4.2 seconds.

But it is what it is. To get Jense upset takes some doing but it was achieved today.

Cant imagine WHAT Lewis was thinking - he is more than able to take on and beat Massa and had he not collided with Massa then would have taken the fight to Alonso and the result would likely have been a Mclaren 1 - 2.

Extremely disappointing race.

[steveaki13]

there is a clip here at Youtube of Yamamoto's pitstop incident, i don't think we can blame the driver really, the lollipop man was too early and the techniciam was behind Yamamotos head. was a nasty incident, but apparently the guy is "not badly injured"

Warning - the clip isn't too nice, so don't view if your easily upset

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9I7FE2XP3I

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2010/09/unsafe-release-you-can-say-that-again/

Hispania have been fined $20k for an unsafe release

Just as it seemed from what was said mid race by Ted Kraviz. Not Yamamoto's fault really, but what the lollipop man was thinking about is anyone's guess. (Probably how to sign for Virgin next year :laugh :)

[steveaki13]

Seems that Mclaren may have done a bit of a Red Bull today.

Wasting a chance of a 1,2 with a bit of misfortune Buttons damage and a driver not forfilling potential and retiring.

[Saint Devote]

Seems that Mclaren may have done a bit of a Red Bull today.

Indeed :D

The only one at Mclaren coming up roses today was Jenson - not a step wrong.

[steveaki13]

Indeed :D

The only one at Mclaren coming up roses today was Jenson - not a step wrong.

True he had Alonso within a second for 30 odd laps and with the knowledge if he made a slip Alonso could breeze past him, and yet he made no mistakes. Pretty Good.

[Saint Devote]

True he had Alonso within a second for 30 odd laps and with the knowledge if he made a slip Alonso could breeze past him, and yet he made no mistakes. Pretty Good.

In addition, Jenson demonstrated clearly to ALL including Alonso that it is not at all neccessary to have collisons when racing.

This was a particularly pressurized race and moving from high speed to the relatively low speeds of the variante, in close contact with another driver, all it needed was for Jense to be a critter.

But Jense is not that sort of driver. He is very old fashioned that way and conducts himself in a way a world champion should.

I am very proud to be a Jenson supporter today :D

[Saint Devote]

I'm confused as to how Webber passed Vettel, but the Ozzy still managed to finish two places behind ze German.

Can anyone clarify this for me?

Sebastian drove a very good race today. He had that engne problem which cleared up and he and his team decided to stay out because he was setting good lap times and pitted a few laps from the end.

This worked for Vettel because Webber got stuck behind Rosberg who kept cutting the chicane every few laps and he could not pass him. In the last 10 laps or so Vettel was setting his quickest times amost TWO seconds quicker than Brittney and Webber.

Mark actually said afterwards he does not know why Nico was not penalized.

[SkyTom]

Sebastian drove a very good race today. He had that engne problem which cleared up and he and his team decided to stay out because he was setting good lap times and pitted a few laps from the end.

This worked for Vettel because Webber got stuck behind Rosberg who kept cutting the chicane every few laps and he could not pass him. In the last 10 laps or so Vettel was setting his quickest times amost TWO seconds quicker than Brittney and Webber.

Mark actually said afterwards he does not know why Nico was not penalized.

Nico Hulkenberg. Rosberg drove very well and got fifth.

[ShiftingGears]

I didn't see any use of team orders today. As if either RBR driver would pull over for their teammate and sound that convincing on the radio.

Much ado about nothing.

[ioan]

Sebastian drove a very good race today. He had that engne problem which cleared up and he and his team decided to stay out because he was setting good lap times and pitted a few laps from the end.

He pitted exactly before the last lap.

[Valve Bounce]

He pitted exactly before the last lap.

Yep! great tactics !! :up: