Team orders

[CNR]

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/196568/Lewis-Hamilton-s-eye-is-on-Webber


“It is not something McLaren ever do,” said Hamilton, “and I agree with it. The rate which we needed to develop as a team, I think if they’re giving me 100 per cent and they’re giving Jenson 100 per cent then we’re going to improve twice as fast. I’ve just got to continue doing my job.

while reading this i remembered Monaco 2007
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6696391.stm

Englishman Hamilton was impressive on his debut at one of Formula One's most demanding tracks, and might have won had team orders not intervened.

[gloomyDAY]

Oh, give me a break!

Alonso had the better measure of Hamilton at Monaco in 2007.

Pretty cut-and-dried buddy.

[CNR]

Oh, give me a break!

Alonso had the better measure of Hamilton at Monaco in 2007.

Pretty cut-and-dried buddy.

lewis was the one in 2007 that said that he could have won if it was not for team orders this is only 3 years ago

It is not something McLaren ever do did they not do it 3 years ago

[gloomyDAY]

lewis was the one in 2007 that said that he could have won if it was not for team orders this is only 3 years ago

It is not something McLaren ever do did they not do it 3 years agoAll teams have team orders. Pretty naive to think otherwise.

That silly rule hasn't changed a damned thing. Also, I think this is when Hamilton was pretty immature (being a whiny little *beep*) and lost the race on equal footing to Alonso. I think Hamilton just blurted some crap into the mic out of frustration.

[Firstgear]

It is not something McLaren ever did - past

It is not something McLaren ever do - present

It is not something McLaren will ever do - future

Sounds to me like he's talking about this years team philosophy.

[Roamy]

It is very simple - If you don't want team orders then it is one car per team. What is sooooooooo hard about this. You will never get rid of team orders and I would probably have fired Massa for making it so obvious.

[SGWilko]

theres only one way this thread will end up and thats closed. :)

Turn out the light when it is closed please! ;)

[Big Ben]

Saying "its something Mclaren never do" is very different to saying "its something Mclaren never did"..The word "do" can be present tense, and does not suggest this philosophy has a start date lol. ;)

We all know teams make decisions which are the best for the team at certain points and at a track where its highly likely that a rookie dicing with a WDC is going to end in tears is a prime example. Had Ferrari told Fernando to hold position in Germany and not risk both Ferrari's races rather than ordering Massa to pull over, I think the hysteria would have been alot less aggressive. Whats a waste of a thread, and theres only one way this thread will end up and thats closed. :)

From the first post I understand it's "ever", like in “It is not something McLaren ever do,” and "ever" seems to mean "at all times" or "always"... but really now... even tabloids take sentences out of context to make a headline... most of the time.

And I agree... Ferrari should shoot itself in the leg just for the sake of the hysterical people, it's quite important to make other team's fans happy :laugh:

[Big Ben]

Do the rules permit team orders when one pilot is out of the wdc fight?

[SGWilko]

Do the rules permit team orders when one pilot is out of the wdc fight?

Nope.

Not unless the driver makes the decision to assist his teammate of his own accord.

[Big Ben]

Massa moved out of the way on his own accord.

So basically this huge hypocrite named Horner is saying that it's to early to break the rules... but it;s going to happen in the end. Come on hysterical people... start banging your heads to the wall... anybody?

[steveaki13]

Do the rules permit team orders when one pilot is out of the wdc fight?

Like said above its NO.

But personally I feel team orders should be completely up to the team once one driver is mathematically out the the title race, otherwise the team could miss out on maybe there only ever title potentially.

Say Red Bull are never in this position again (as unlikley as that is), they would be pretty angry if one beat the other in a dominant 1,2 and the 2nd lost the title by a point.

[SGWilko]

Massa moved out of the way on his own accord.

So basically this huge hypocrite named Horner is saying that it's to early to break the rules... but it;s going to happen in the end. Come on hysterical people... start banging your heads to the wall... anybody?

After being ordered to do so via the use of coded message.

[Mark]

There is a big difference between determining at the start of the race that one driver will finish ahead of another, or asking a driver to move over; which is what Hamilton was talking about. And the situation in Monaco where the team tells their drivers not to race each other as they'd risk taking each other out.

[ShiftingGears]

Massa moved out of the way on his own accord.

So basically this huge hypocrite named Horner is saying that it's to early to break the rules... but it;s going to happen in the end. Come on hysterical people... start banging your heads to the wall... anybody?

Aha...but then you can argue that you can still give preference and all possible advantages to one driver over the other without ever having to issue a race-changing order.

[Mark]

And then we've seen the situation in the past where you have one driver on a three stopper and one driver doing two stops. The team mate doing two stops lets the three stopper go past because he's not really racing him, and he's told to do so by the team. Is that team orders too?

[SGWilko]

And then we've seen the situation in the past where you have one driver on a three stopper and one driver doing two stops. The team mate doing two stops lets the three stopper go past because he's not really racing him, and he's told to do so by the team. Is that team orders too?

Nah, that's common sense!

[Big Ben]

Aha...but then you can argue that you can still give preference and all possible advantages to one driver over the other without ever having to issue a race-changing order.

Yes... like it seemed to be the case at RBR in Hungary for instance... didn´t work out eventually... that felt good.

[CNR]

it would be a bit unfair for Ferrari to get docked points
and McLaren get away with the save fuel in Turkey

[SGWilko]

it would be a bit unfair for Ferrari to get docked points
and McLaren get away with the save fuel in Turkey

Depends though, doesn't it?

We've done this one to death nearly, but the fuel checks in scrutineering after the race bore out the save fuel warnings given over the radio to both McLaren pilots.

Irrespective of whether or not Alonso was faster than Massa or not, it is for Alonso to make a pass, not for his team to facilitate it. Provided they don't take each other out, Massa, being in the lead, is entitled to defend.

After all, the rules as they currently are............... etc etc.

[ShiftingGears]

Irrespective of whether or not Alonso was faster than Massa or not, it is for Alonso to make a pass, not for his team to facilitate it. Provided they don't take each other out, Massa, being in the lead, is entitled to defend.


Massa is also entitled to let Alonso pass if he so chooses.

Which is exactly what Ferrari will argue.

[SGWilko]

Massa is also entitled to let Alonso pass if he so chooses.

Which is exactly what Ferrari will argue.

Indeed he is. But look at the facts;

Massa was ahead, and had already defended.

Then comes the radio message....

All of a sudden, he slows down and lets Alonso go by.

Smell a rat?

[ShiftingGears]

Indeed he is. But look at the facts;

Massa was ahead, and had already defended.

Then comes the radio message....

All of a sudden, he slows down and lets Alonso go by.

Smell a rat?

They will argue:

That the radio message made him reconsider, and that he was not coerced into pulling over by the team, but made that decision by himself.

That there was no explicit command for Massa to move over, and as such it does not constitute a team order.



Ferrari clearly wanted Massa to move over but Ferrari, by not issuing a direct order, did not violate the team orders rule.

[ArrowsFA1]

Ferrari clearly wanted Massa to move over but Ferrari, by not issuing a direct order, did not violate the team orders rule.
If Rob had said to Felipe "Fernando's quicker, you'll need to up your pace" I can see that being viewed as Felipe's decision.

The problem for Ferrari was the way in which the "instruction" was given to Felipe. The words used may not have constituted a direct order, but the way in which they were delivered suggested otherwise, certainly enough for the stewards.

I think the penalty already imposed is sufficient. Hopefully the WMSC will simply review article 39.1 and not penalise Ferrari further.

[markabilly]

Indeed he is. But look at the facts;

Massa was ahead, and had already defended.

Then comes the radio message....

All of a sudden, he slows down and lets Alonso go by.

Smell a rat?

sure do!!!!!

who could not smell a rat???????

Indeed, it smells like and must the same rat who tells Button, "we need to conserve fuel...." when he is behind Lewis and looks to be threatening him as in Turkey and elsewhere.....

:vader:

[ArrowsFA1]

Indeed, it smells like and must the same rat who tells Button, "we need to conserve fuel...." when he is behind Lewis and looks to be threatening him as in Turkey and elsewhere.....
If the stewards have reason to believe "conserve fuel" to be a team order then they can examine the data available to them which would show whether fuel consumption was marginal or not.

[Valve Bounce]

"It was Smedley's apology to Massa immediately after he moved aside for Alonso, plus the clear unhappiness from the Brazilian driver after the race, which pointed to the fact that Massa had been ordered to move aside – rather than had chosen to do so with his own free will.

Sources suggest that part of Ferrari's defence will hinge on the fact that no clear order was given for Massa to give up his lead – so therefore no actual breach of the regulations could have taken place."

From autosport

[ArrowsFA1]

Sources suggest that part of Ferrari's defence will hinge on the fact that no clear order was given for Massa to give up his lead – so therefore no actual breach of the regulations could have taken place."

From autosport
The rule does not say team orders have to be clear. In fact there is no definition of what form a team order must take for a team to be in breach of the rule, nor is there a definition of team orders, only that they are prohibited.

Does make proving or disproving their existence rather difficult :p

[Valve Bounce]

Allo, Allo! Listen carefully because I will only repeat this once:.................

[Retro Formula 1]

Allo, Allo! Listen carefully because I will only repeat this once:.................

PML :laugh:

:up:

[F1boat]

If Rob had said to Felipe "Fernando's quicker, you'll need to up your pace" I can see that being viewed as Felipe's decision.

The problem for Ferrari was the way in which the "instruction" was given to Felipe. The words used may not have constituted a direct order, but the way in which they were delivered suggested otherwise, certainly enough for the stewards.

I think the penalty already imposed is sufficient. Hopefully the WMSC will simply review article 39.1 and not penalise Ferrari further.

I agree.

[truefan72]

it would be a bit unfair for Ferrari to get docked points
and McLaren get away with the save fuel in Turkey

first of all, it has been proven beyond any doubt that they indeed needed to save fuel, as did every other team on the gird in that race.

2nd: I refer you to post #15, if you truly believe what you said.

[Big Ben]

So their are chances that FIA will take the reasonable decision

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86478

[Retro Formula 1]

Well, t's that. They are found guilty but there is no further punishment.

Fair result.

[Daika]

Well, t's that. They are found guilty but there is no further punishment.

Fair result.

You mean there was a punishment (100.000 fine) and that was upheld. Basicly this ruling means that team orders are allowed from day 1. It doesn't matter wheter it is the first or the last race. Team orders is allowed. I'm fine with it as long it is clear. No code language or other hidden signs. Just say it out loud. Nr 2 get out of the way for nr 1!!

[steveaki13]

They now must remove the rule banning team orders and let F1 carry on from here.

[ArrowsFA1]

It seems that, as the stewards found, Ferrari were guilty of breaking the team orders rule which remains in place at present. However, that rule will be reviewed :up:

[maximilian]

Fining Ferrari $100,000 is like fining you and me $7. :rolleyes:

[ArrowsFA1]

Fining Ferrari $100,000 is like fining you and me $7. :rolleyes:
AFAIK the $100,000 was made up of two lots of $50,000 for two offences - breaching the team orders rule and bringing the sport into disrepute. That was the maximum fine the stewards could impose.

[F1boat]

Fining Ferrari $100,000 is like fining you and me $7. :rolleyes:

For silly rule, silly penalty...

[Daika]

AFAIK the $100,000 was made up of two lots of $50,000 for two offences - breaching the team orders rule and bringing the sport into disrepute. That was the maximum fine the stewards could impose.

I stilll don't get how Schumacher/ferrari were fined a million (or two?) in 2002. Didn't they do the samething? and now only 100K.

[Firstgear]

I stilll don't get how Schumacher/ferrari were fined a million (or two?) in 2002. Didn't they do the samething? and now only 100K.
I think that was for breaking podium protocal (Schumi shoved Rubens onto the top step of the podium). There was no team orders rule back then.

[Nikki Katz]

Personally although I think that the calls from some to ban Ferrari from races were far too harsh, I wouldn't have been against disqualifying them from that race. It was blatantly against the rules and they got away with it.

I also don't like that as a result of this that they're planning on legalising team orders. I can see if Ferrari do end up with the best car, Alonso winning all races even if he's no faster than Massa. Something to do with Jean Todt being in charge?

[Mia 01]

Now teamorders in practice are legal, a sad day for most F1 fans.

[Daika]

Now teamorders in practice are legal, a sad day for most F1 fans.

I'd rather know the truth. In reality it happends a million times unnotice. I applaud those (mainly Ferrari in the Schumacher days) who are transparent.

[driveace]

OK all clear now! NEVER EVER EVER,gamble a penny on a F1 race ever again,as its a fix!

[Valve Bounce]

Maybe now Red Bull will order Vettel not to crash into Mark Webber. :p :

[ZEROX]

Team order never 'dissapear' from Formula One . Hakkinen on Coulthard . Alonso on Hamilton . Hamilton on Kovalainen . Vettel on Webber . Now , Alonso on Massa . But in Ferrari case , they giving the order openly . Not-so-secret code . Mclaren are talking bull**** . I'm not an anti-mclaren . It's just annoyed me when they said they never done it .

And so , IF the team order get green light from the FIA . No more REAL RACING for the driver and for us . It's no fun anymore . I just hope it'll be not given a green light since the FIA will review it back .

[wedge]

Well, there you have it Max Mosley, you are officially a numpty :arrows:

and to thinking that your dictatorship (in this instance, even though there has been good in another) would let you in the good books of naive and demented fans.

[Valve Bounce]

This could be one helluva setback for Bunsen. I don't know how it will affect Vettel because I suspect that he will resist all attempts to put Mark Webber into a favored position in the team. I suspect that Massa has already got the message.

[Saint Devote]

This could be one helluva setback for Bunsen. I don't know how it will affect Vettel because I suspect that he will resist all attempts to put Mark Webber into a favored position in the team. I suspect that Massa has already got the message.

You remain unknowing after all this time on how the Hamilton-Button relationship works and how Woking conducts itself on this matter in the Whitmarsh, post-Dennis team?!! Ye gods!

In all his years in f1, Jenson is KNOWN as the most even tempered and rational individual.

They are both world champions and have the self-confidence and capacity of understanding that is always noticeable in such accomplished drivers as well as that both drivers are particularly calm people.

Have you not been watching what transpired during the year? Very different to the paranoia of Webber and the emotional reactions of Vettel.

It is not accidental. Thats Lewis and Jenson - the year will play out in whatever way it does and towards the end of the season, whoever is in the lead - one will be supported by the other where the championship is concerned.

Hamilton and Jense are the best pairing in f1 today and kudos to Whitmarsh. His first signing as a team principle, that of Button, was an absolute coup and neither driver will degrade McLaren by the antics we have seen from the RBR drivers!

As for Vettel - he will remain the favored and lead driver at RBR. He knows it, Webber understands that and so does Horner.

When Webber declared "not bad for a number 2 driver" - he was correct.

[Saint Devote]

Now teamorders in practice are legal, a sad day for most F1 fans.

So dont watch!

Team orders have been part of f1 in terms of strategy and team desire since racing began from the days of the EDC to that of the WDC and Fangio and beyond until suddenly the FIA reacted to idiot fans that day in Germany.

Thats the sport, always has been and always will be. If you dont like that aspect I suggest you go and watch tennis [shudder and vomit] or golf [shudder and vomit]!

[airshifter]

You remain unknowing after all this time on how the Hamilton-Button relationship works and how Woking conducts itself on this matter in the Whitmarsh, post-Dennis team?!! Ye gods!

In all his years in f1, Jenson is KNOWN as the most even tempered and rational individual.

They are both world champions and have the self-confidence and capacity of understanding that is always noticeable in such accomplished drivers as well as that both drivers are particularly calm people.

Have you not been watching what transpired during the year? Very different to the paranoia of Webber and the emotional reactions of Vettel.

It is not accidental. Thats Lewis and Jenson - the year will play out in whatever way it does and towards the end of the season, whoever is in the lead - one will be supported by the other where the championship is concerned.

Hamilton and Jense are the best pairing in f1 today and kudos to Whitmarsh. His first signing as a team principle, that of Button, was an absolute coup and neither driver will degrade McLaren by the antics we have seen from the RBR drivers!

As for Vettel - he will remain the favored and lead driver at RBR. He knows it, Webber understands that and so does Horner.

When Webber declared "not bad for a number 2 driver" - he was correct.


Does this explain how Jenson decided to pass Lewis after both drivers were told to conserve fuel? Not that it lasted, as Lewis wasn't having it, but that action more or less throws to the wind your statements that Lewis is a team player and will support the team and/or other driver if needed. Quite to the contrary, he used it as an opportunity to try to catch Lewis off guard and take advantage of the situation.

[Valve Bounce]

You remain unknowing after all this time on how the Hamilton-Button relationship works and how Woking conducts itself on this matter in the Whitmarsh, post-Dennis team?!! Ye gods!



I stand by what I posted. Bunsen will be relegated, one way or another to being #2 for the rest of this year if Lewis Hamilton outscores him at Monza. AND, if Lewis outqualifies him, and out drags him at the start at Monza, Bunsen will be expected to be tail gunner for Hamilton at Monza.

[markabilly]

So the effect of this ruling is to uphold the penalty for team orders?
So team orders are illegal, but if you issue a team order, it costs 100k?

and when is a team order not a team order in violation of the rule?????
When it effects a race result?? And if it does, the penalty is amaximum of $100k?

So if team X orders a driver to pit, and his team mate gains an advantage, is that a violation?
And as asked by Valve, if red bull orders vettel NOT to crash into webber, that would be a violation because that would effect the race result??

It seems to me they should have clarified the rule to make it much clearer.

Indeed, they could adopt a rule that says team mates must attempt to pass each other, and any failure to do so and be successful, shall be investigated and penalized as appropriate......

And all you folks need to stop being such hypocrites about what happenned with Button in 2 races, where he might have challenged lewis but backed off due to the order "conserve fuel". Mac was just more clever, but that was a team order as much as any.

And Valve is right about monza, but not because of the brilliant intellectual proweness he abundantly possesses, he is right because he is not being a hypocrite, trying to pretend otherwise.......

[Valve Bounce]

I think Renee has the perfect answer: Allo, allo! Listen very carefully because I will only repeat this once:" the hen in the barn has just laid an egg; do you read me Bunsen, the hen in the barn has just laid an egg."

[Valve Bounce]

In all his years in f1, Jenson is KNOWN as the most even tempered and rational individual.



Yeah! like when title sponsor Richard Branson made passes at Bunsen's chick; by golly didn't the Bunsen light up!!

[Mia 01]

So dont watch!

Team orders have been part of f1 in terms of strategy and team desire since racing began from the days of the EDC to that of the WDC and Fangio and beyond until suddenly the FIA reacted to idiot fans that day in Germany.

Thats the sport, always has been and always will be. If you dont like that aspect I suggest you go and watch tennis [shudder and vomit] or golf [shudder and vomit]!


Can I suggest you watch a sport where there only is a WCC.

[F1boat]

Maybe now Red Bull will order Vettel not to crash into Mark Webber. :p :

LFMAO!

[Big Ben]

I stand by what I posted. Bunsen will be relegated, one way or another to being #2 for the rest of this year if Lewis Hamilton outscores him at Monza. AND, if Lewis outqualifies him, and out drags him at the start at Monza, Bunsen will be expected to be tail gunner for Hamilton at Monza.

There is no need for anyone to tell JB he's #2. He's a natural... and the best part is his modesty as he doesn't know it. I agree with St. D.. and I've said it from day one, Withmarsh signed the best #2 out there.

[ArrowsFA1]

I stilll don't get how Schumacher/ferrari were fined a million (or two?) in 2002. Didn't they do the samething? and now only 100K.
Don't forget that Max was in charge back in 2002 and Max had a habit of making up his own penalties and rules. Fortunately those days seem to be over.

[F1boat]

Don't forget that Max was in charge back in 2002 and Max had a habit of making up his own penalties and rules. Fortunately those days seem to be over.

Yes! Jean seems to be far better than Max!

[Valve Bounce]

Yes! Jean seems to be far better than Max!

Softer touch with the whip!!!!

[airshifter]

So the effect of this ruling is to uphold the penalty for team orders?
So team orders are illegal, but if you issue a team order, it costs 100k?

and when is a team order not a team order in violation of the rule?????
When it effects a race result?? And if it does, the penalty is amaximum of $100k?

So if team X orders a driver to pit, and his team mate gains an advantage, is that a violation?
And as asked by Valve, if red bull orders vettel NOT to crash into webber, that would be a violation because that would effect the race result??

It seems to me they should have clarified the rule to make it much clearer.

Indeed, they could adopt a rule that says team mates must attempt to pass each other, and any failure to do so and be successful, shall be investigated and penalized as appropriate......

And all you folks need to stop being such hypocrites about what happenned with Button in 2 races, where he might have challenged lewis but backed off due to the order "conserve fuel". Mac was just more clever, but that was a team order as much as any.

And Valve is right about monza, but not because of the brilliant intellectual proweness he abundantly possesses, he is right because he is not being a hypocrite, trying to pretend otherwise.......


I guess only the bigger teams will be able to afford team orders on a regular basis. At 100K per incident the slower teams need the money for development.

As for Button, I agree that Mclaren were giving a "hold station" order. My point was simply that Button ignored it and made the pass regardless. That pretty much tosses out the window that he is such a team player.

[wmcot]

There is a big difference between determining at the start of the race that one driver will finish ahead of another, or asking a driver to move over; which is what Hamilton was talking about. And the situation in Monaco where the team tells their drivers not to race each other as they'd risk taking each other out.

...Or take the front wing off one driver's car and put it on the other car. Isn't that a form of team orders?

[wmcot]

Maybe now Red Bull will order Vettel not to crash into Mark Webber. :p :

He won't listen!

[wmcot]

I never thought I would see the day when Frank Williams sent a letter of support for the Ferrari case (so did Peter Sauber.) I can't imagine that Frank has become a Ferrari fan - just a fair and open-minded, decent bloke.

[Valve Bounce]

I never thought I would see the day when Frank Williams sent a letter of support for the Ferrari case (so did Peter Sauber.) I can't imagine that Frank has become a Ferrari fan - just a fair and open-minded, decent bloke.

If the Renault engine deal falls through, Frank might need alternative pedal power for his tanks. :p :

[SGWilko]

So, whilst Fred was faster than Massa, now we know it was not due to superior driving skills....


documents from the hearing reveal that both drivers had their engines turned down, but Alonso had been allowed to turn his up, unbeknownst to Massa. “Alonso increased his engine speed without Mr Felipe Massa’s being informed. Mr Fernando Alonso was therefore benefiting from a definite performance advantage over Mr Felipe Massa in the moments preceding the contentious overtaking.”

[Retro Formula 1]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86523

Schumy thinks he's the right person to help modify the team orders regulations.

While I agree that there is nobody more experienced, it does seem a bit like the poacher turned game keeper :laugh:

This should be interesting.

[ArrowsFA1]

If you actually try and sit down to write a something which prevents the public feeling they've been "conned", while still allowing the teams to run themselves as they see fit it's very difficult to come up with a clear rule.

One problem is that while we all know F1 is a team sport, we also all know it is a sport where individuals compete against each other. Another problem is the definition of a team order, and proving whether a team order (once defined) has been given.

The easiest solution is to simply remove 39.1 from the rulebook.

[Firstgear]

The easiest thing (although I wouldn't want to see it happen) would be not to rewrite the rule, but to keep team radio transmissions during the race out of the TV broadcast.

If the fans wouldn't of heard the message about "Alonso being faster, nudge nudge, wink wink" the majority of fans would be none the wiser and it would have never become an issue.

[Retro Formula 1]

If they want to do it, then just ban communication with the drivers apart from Lap times. Furthermore, ban displays on the car so a driver starts a race and finishes a race on his own.

Just have pit boards that can only show Laps, time to who is in front and who is behind.

OK, teams can decide strategy before the event but you cant stop that anyway.

[wedge]

So, whilst Fred was faster than Massa, now we know it was not due to superior driving skills....

If you had a Red Bull up your backside would you not turn the wick up? And in turn Massa had the same option and not use it?


I can't imagine that Frank has become a Ferrari fan - just a fair and open-minded, decent bloke.

Dunno about that. He colluded with McLaren and gave away a certain European GP (1997) win to Mika Hakkinen.

[D28]

Dunno about that. He colluded with McLaren and gave away a certain European GP (1997) win to Mika Hakkinen.

I don't recall that the win was anywhere near certain after the beating Villeneuve's car took with the Ferrari collision. What was certain was that 2nd or 3rd would secure the Driver's title and a DNF would not. This was a case of simply being prudent.

[truefan72]

simple solution, do away with the WCC and awards monies based on the finish of individual cars. You can make the WCC a sort of honorable achievement but with no real value in terms of rewards. (except for a nice trophy) so we can do away with the pretenses that F1 is a "team sport" and that F1 drivers are mere employees of a company who can be ordered around as the director sees fit.

Funny enough this attitude by Frank williams is why he could never hold on to top drivers and probably why his team continues to struggle back to the top. Nobody, drivers or engineers want to work for a company where they are thought of as mere chess pieces.

to me F1 has never been a team sport and the whole discussion about team this or team that has only come into the discussion in reference to helping a preferred driver achieve and individual goal that the team desired or needed based on contractual agreements, sponsorship requirements or just plain bias.

[Mia 01]

So dont watch!

Team orders have been part of f1 in terms of strategy and team desire since racing began from the days of the EDC to that of the WDC and Fangio and beyond until suddenly the FIA reacted to idiot fans that day in Germany.

Thats the sport, always has been and always will be. If you dont like that aspect I suggest you go and watch tennis [shudder and vomit] or golf [shudder and vomit]!

Perhaps you will be so kind and lissen to your dear friend jenson if that suits you.
http://www.planetf1.com/news/3213/6368845/Button-Drivers-title-should-remain-the-drivers-

[ioan]

simple solution, do away with the WCC and awards monies based on the finish of individual cars. You can make the WCC a sort of honorable achievement but with no real value in terms of rewards. (except for a nice trophy) so we can do away with the pretenses that F1 is a "team sport" and that F1 drivers are mere employees of a company who can be ordered around as the director sees fit.

Funny enough this attitude by Frank williams is why he could never hold on to top drivers and probably why his team continues to struggle back to the top. Nobody, drivers or engineers want to work for a company where they are thought of as mere chess pieces.

to me F1 has never been a team sport and the whole discussion about team this or team that has only come into the discussion in reference to helping a preferred driver achieve and individual goal that the team desired or needed based on contractual agreements, sponsorship requirements or just plain bias.

One car and driver per team would open up a lot of slots for new teams and put an end to this crap.

[CNR]

could this open the FIA and F1 teams up to race fixing charges
by bookmakers association

Q: in the end how is this different to crashgate
Briatore was personally found guilty of race-fixing

[wedge]

One car and driver per team would open up a lot of slots for new teams and put an end to this crap.

That would make F1 more boring IMO.

F1 is called the Piranha Club for various reasons and that includes the gamesmanship/bragging rights of team mates such as Prost/Senna, Piquet/Mansell, Jones/Reutimann, Alonso/Hamilton, Webber/Vettel.

[ioan]

That would make F1 more boring IMO.

F1 is called the Piranha Club for various reasons and that includes the gamesmanship/bragging rights of team mates such as Prost/Senna, Piquet/Mansell, Jones/Reutimann, Alonso/Hamilton, Webber/Vettel.

I don't care about their piranha clubs nor about people like Alonso throwing their toys out of the pram, what I care about is racing.

[Valve Bounce]

That would make F1 more boring IMO.

F1 is called the Piranha Club for various reasons and that includes the gamesmanship/bragging rights of team mates such as Prost/Senna, Piquet/Mansell, Jones/Reutimann, Alonso/Hamilton, Webber/Vettel.
............Bunsen and Sato, ...........

[Valve Bounce]

I don't care about their piranha clubs nor about people like Alonso throwing their toys out of the pram, what I care about is racing.

But does this mean that Vettel will be ordered not to crash into Mark Webber? :eek: Gosh!that will be boring.

[truefan72]

could this open the FIA and F1 teams up to race fixing charges
by bookmakers association

Q: in the end how is this different to crashgate
Briatore was personally found guilty of race-fixing

to me there is no real difference by the way the FIA ruled

both teams decided to create a situation that would benefit their preferred driver to win the race. So if Renault deliberately crashed their car to favor Alonso then why should they be assessed such a heavy fine. Makes me think FA he had some knowledge of crashgate. Would love to hear those radio conversations between Alonso and the team prior to the crash.

[ArrowsFA1]

could this open the FIA and F1 teams up to race fixing charges by bookmakers association
I hope that no consideration whatsoever is given to bookmakers or betting. We've already seen in other sports how betting is corrupting sport, or at least attempting to, and it's sadly becoming more pervasive.

[ioan]

But does this mean that Vettel will be ordered not to crash into Mark Webber? :eek: Gosh!that will be boring.

It's been months you only post stuff like this, just like a broken record.

[donKey jote]

It's been years... :laugh:

[truefan72]

I hope that no consideration whatsoever is given to bookmakers or betting. We've already seen in other sports how betting is corrupting sport, or at least attempting to, and it's sadly becoming more pervasive.

however it is legal in most parts of the world and therefore provides an additional incentive to not have races fixed by teams to the detriment of the sport and fans.

[truefan72]

To me there are "team orders" the there are blatant unnecessary team orders that are the reason the rule was implemented in the first place.

A driver who is mathematically out of the championship and decides to help the other car in the team out or a situation where the drivers are told to hold station to maintain a 1-2 finish are very different that telling a fellow team driver to move over, plus undermine his race tot he benefit of the teammate when both are still very much in the championship and the driver asked to yield is clearly leading the race. If folks cannot see that difference or try to pretend that all situations have the same weight or impact then there is no point in discussing.

[Hawkmoon]

I hope that no consideration whatsoever is given to bookmakers or betting. We've already seen in other sports how betting is corrupting sport, or at least attempting to, and it's sadly becoming more pervasive.

I totally agree. The last thing they should be worrying about is gambling. Cricket's in a mess because of it and online betting is getting all too prominant in Australia. Rugby League is sponsored by a betting agency and the commentators give updates on the odds not only before the game but during it as well. They mumble a little "please gamble responsibly" afterwards like it somehow absolves them of pushing sports gambling down viewer's throats at every opportunity.

There's even a new TV show dedicated entirely to sports gambling. Betting is an dangerous act and has no place in sports in any fashion. Sure, let the mrons bet if they like but the rules should in no way be fashioned with the best interest of gamblers in mind.

[Hawkmoon]

to me there is no real difference by the way the FIA ruled

both teams decided to create a situation that would benefit their preferred driver to win the race. So if Renault deliberately crashed their car to favor Alonso then why should they be assessed such a heavy fine. Makes me think FA he had some knowledge of crashgate. Would love to hear those radio conversations between Alonso and the team prior to the crash.

I disagree. There is a very distinct difference between the two. By your logic not only did Ferrari "fix" the 2010 German GP but they also "fixed" the 2007 Brazilian GP and McLaren "fixed" the 1997 European GP and the 1998 Australian GP when they moved Coulthard out of the way of Hakkinen. Do you really think all these incidents are cases of race fixing?

The difference between Singapore 2008 and the others is that Renault orchestrated an event that created an advantageous situation for one driver. This event also affected the entire field as it caused the safety car to be deployed. The other incidents I mentioned had no effect on the race of any other competitor other than the team in question. Ferrari and McLaren were running 1-2 before the order and they were running 1-2 after the order. The position of no other competitor was altered. That to me is a significant difference.

[wmcot]

could this open the FIA and F1 teams up to race fixing charges
by bookmakers association

Q: in the end how is this different to crashgate
Briatore was personally found guilty of race-fixing

Point 1. Bookmakers - Ah yes, those reputable, upstanding citizens with high morals. We should be concerned about how this affects their "business."

Point 2. Crashgate - A driver stands a lot higher chance of getting killed or killing someone else by crashing than being asked to move over (Vettel is the exception!)

[wmcot]

Of course now you have St. Martin of Whitmarsh voicing his drivel:

http://www.planetf1.com/news/18227/6371129/Whitmarsh-Rather-lose-than-use-team-orders

I wonder how DC feels knowing that McLaren weren't using team orders all those Coulthard-Hakkinen years? Hmm...

[SGWilko]

I wonder how DC feels knowing that McLaren weren't using team orders all those Coulthard-Hakkinen years? Hmm...

As DC himself pointed out on Auntie Beeb during qually, in those days, team orders were permitted. Hmm... ;)

[Robinho]

To me there are "team orders" the there are blatant unnecessary team orders that are the reason the rule was implemented in the first place.

A driver who is mathematically out of the championship and decides to help the other car in the team out or a situation where the drivers are told to hold station to maintain a 1-2 finish are very different that telling a fellow team driver to move over, plus undermine his race tot he benefit of the teammate when both are still very much in the championship and the driver asked to yield is clearly leading the race. If folks cannot see that difference or try to pretend that all situations have the same weight or impact then there is no point in discussing.

i was beginning to think i was the only one who got it, thankfully i'm not. I agree 100%. Swapping drivers round to no benefit to the team, just one driver, when both drivers are in the hunt ofr the championship is unecessary. Holding station (the lead driver has already done the hard work usually) or to gain a championship for a driver, or improving the overall position for the team is quite different.

If Ferrari had told Alonso to call off the fight aftert he pitstops as he'd failed to get past Felipe would have been more than fine in the eyes of most fans i think. Same as if and when Red Bull or McLaren tell the drivers to cool it.

[Hawkmoon]

i was beginning to think i was the only one who got it, thankfully i'm not. I agree 100%. Swapping drivers round to no benefit to the team, just one driver, when both drivers are in the hunt ofr the championship is unecessary. Holding station (the lead driver has already done the hard work usually) or to gain a championship for a driver, or improving the overall position for the team is quite different.

If Ferrari had told Alonso to call off the fight aftert he pitstops as he'd failed to get past Felipe would have been more than fine in the eyes of most fans i think. Same as if and when Red Bull or McLaren tell the drivers to cool it.

The flaw in your argument is how do you determine that the swap has no benefit to the team?

Germany is the perfect example. Even though it was mathematically possible for Massa to win the title it simply wasn't probable based on both the points gap to the championship leader and Massa's peformance up to that point. Alonso was the driver more likely to challenge for the title as he was much closer to the front in terms of points and had performed better than Massa for most of the season.

You could argue that Ferrari were going to get maximum WCC points and that's all that should have mattered but it simply doesn't happen that way. Watch the end of the 2008 Brazillian GP and tell me which team was happier. Ferrari who had just won the WCC or McLaren who had ostensibly won nothing but who's driver had just won the WDC?

[ioan]

The flaw in your argument is how do you determine that the swap has no benefit to the team?

Arithmetic is more than enough in most cases, like the German GP this year, where the team didn't benefit from it.

[Hawkmoon]

Arithmetic is more than enough in most cases, like the German GP this year, where the team didn't benefit from it.

So the team doesn't benefit from it's driver winning the WDC?

[ioan]

So the team doesn't benefit from it's driver winning the WDC?

No. They get money for WCC points and standings.

[ShiftingGears]

No. They get money for WCC points and standings.

That would be completely overlooking what sells to the sponsors.

[ioan]

That would be completely overlooking what sells to the sponsors.

Quantify the money a team gets from a sponsor for having the WDC.
Otherwise it's only subjective BS.

[Bagwan]

Quantify the money a team gets from a sponsor for having the WDC.
Otherwise it's only subjective BS.

One needs only to look at the colour of the crowd , my friend , to see that the WDC is first choice .
There was a whole lot of Asturia blue in the Tifosi crowd , and the roar from the stands was easily heard over the red lump in Fernando's car .

First on the list for the fan , the one who buys the hat , is the top step of the podium .

From one of the announcers on the BBC telecast comes the gem about Fernando being far more popular in Italy now than Michael ever was , even after 7 championships .

So , he's back in the hunt , and wins in Italy .

Now , if Felipe could have delivered the second place step , it would have been perfect .

[Robinho]

One needs only to look at the colour of the crowd , my friend , to see that the WDC is first choice .
There was a whole lot of Asturia blue in the Tifosi crowd , and the roar from the stands was easily heard over the red lump in Fernando's car .

First on the list for the fan , the one who buys the hat , is the top step of the podium .

From one of the announcers on the BBC telecast comes the gem about Fernando being far more popular in Italy now than Michael ever was , even after 7 championships .

So , he's back in the hunt , and wins in Italy .

Now , if Felipe could have delivered the second place step , it would have been perfect .

as far as the Tifosi are concerned Michael only has 5 championships! ;)

[ioan]

One needs only to look at the colour of the crowd , my friend , to see that the WDC is first choice .
There was a whole lot of Asturia blue in the Tifosi crowd , and the roar from the stands was easily heard over the red lump in Fernando's car .

First on the list for the fan , the one who buys the hat , is the top step of the podium .

From one of the announcers on the BBC telecast comes the gem about Fernando being far more popular in Italy now than Michael ever was , even after 7 championships .

So , he's back in the hunt , and wins in Italy .

Now , if Felipe could have delivered the second place step , it would have been perfect .

Do fans pay a tax to Ferrari and I somehow missed it for the last 20 years?!
Are there more Ferrari fans since Kimi left and Alonso arrived?

Did McLaren get new sponsors because of Jenson?

Will Ferrari get more sponsors because of Alonso after their German GP stunt?!

[Bagwan]

Do fans pay a tax to Ferrari and I somehow missed it for the last 20 years?!
Are there more Ferrari fans since Kimi left and Alonso arrived?

Did McLaren get new sponsors because of Jenson?

Will Ferrari get more sponsors because of Alonso after their German GP stunt?!

Yes , in the form of red clothing (light blue now , too) .

Perhaps not more Italian Ferrari fans , but certainly a whole bunch more Spanish ! They buy both blue and red flags .

McLaren got a "barmy army" to buy gear , which , although not a following like Alonso's , I would bet was worth quite a lot in sales .

Will they get more sales after Monza ...you bet .

[nigelred5]

I don't recall seeing SANTANDER on the Ferrari until they signed Alonzo, so I seem to think Alonzo's presence got Ferrari at least one sponsor, which they took from their cheif rival.

[ioan]

I don't recall seeing SANTANDER on the Ferrari until they signed Alonzo, so I seem to think Alonzo's presence got Ferrari at least one sponsor, which they took from their cheif rival.

Will Santander leave if Alonso doesn't win the WDC?

[ioan]

Yes , in the form of red clothing (light blue now , too) .

Perhaps not more Italian Ferrari fans , but certainly a whole bunch more Spanish ! They buy both blue and red flags .

McLaren got a "barmy army" to buy gear , which , although not a following like Alonso's , I would bet was worth quite a lot in sales .

Will they get more sales after Monza ...you bet .

And if Alonso happens not to win the WDC all these Ferrari 'fans' will leave and stop buying red stuff?

[truefan72]

I don't recall seeing SANTANDER on the Ferrari until they signed Alonzo, so I seem to think Alonzo's presence got Ferrari at least one sponsor, which they took from their cheif rival.

nope, more like santander got them Alonso
I also think they were a sponsor of Ferrari prior to Alonso joining

[Saint Devote]

Given the tight championship, the team order decision in Germany, so vehemently criticized for being "too early", was definitely the right one.

[F1boat]

Given the tight championship, the team order decision in Germany, so vehemently criticized for being "too early", was definitely the right one.

Of course...