Vettel incident; what's wrong with FIA ?

[race_director]

The way i see it vettel incident , was just a racing accident. he didnt crash intentslly into button. he came out of the slip strip lost control, he could have gone the other way and spun also. then also a penalty.


Either FIA steward were drunk or they need rehab..one thing for sure they will make Mclaren win this year. Mclaren has become blue eyed boy now, every team other than ferrari has been punished (like ferrari before)


i am not a RBR or vettel supporter

[Ari]

I kinda agree.

I dont think it should have been a drive through. Yes it was a mistake on Vettel and yes it was wrong and cost Button was not intentional. I was surprised it was called for a drive through.

[speeddurango]

My guess is that Mansell was just too eager to wield his power in race control. Being a commentator on the trackside is nothing in comparison to actually influencing the outcome of a race.

[Kevincal]

Button did nothing wrong, Vettel stupidly lost control and took Button out of the race, meanwhile Vettel got to continue in the race. It's only fair that Vettel get some sort of penalty in that situation. It's only a "racing incident" if it's unclear whos fault it is in an accident... In this case, a 2 year old could pick out who was at fault!

[steveaki13]

I agree that with race_director and others.

If the stewards are now giving penalties for mistakes well, then no driver can risk a mistake and therefor not risk any overtake which is not a given.

Result hardly any overtakes.

[Mark]

He didn't make a small error when overtaking. It was a very large error!

[ShiftingGears]

Agreed. Racing incident in difficult conditions. Definitely was not worth a penalty. Again, the stewards have been inconsistent as Webber screwed up majorly when he ran into Hamilton in Australia, and did not receive a penalty.

[F1boat]

The way i see it vettel incident , was just a racing accident. he didnt crash intentslly into button.

That's why he only got a drive trough penalty. He is reckless, though, and a danger to the health of his colleagues. This is not the first time he makes such mistake. Twice he has hit Webber, in 2008 in Fuji and this year in Turkey and let's not forget his accident with Kubica in 2009. He thinks that he owns the track. In fact he is just a talented kid. May become great or may leave the sport with the bitter taste of disappointment. Depends on him, but FIA can not tolerate drivers who risk the life of their colleagues. Actually Mike was penalized for intention of collision.
So no need of whining.

[Ranger]

Ths stewards seem to punish the drivers who crash into someone else and continue in better shape than the other guy. Although that isn't a rule.

Needs clarification, methinks.

[Mia 01]

A race incident, just as it was with Mark.

[555-04Q2]

It's crazy. Vettel did not deserve a penalty at all. Yes it cost Button, but this is racing. Was Reubens penalised for his shunt on Alonso?

[truefan72]

It's crazy. Vettel did not deserve a penalty at all. Yes it cost Button, but this is racing. Was Reubens penalised for his shunt on Alonso?

what vettel did was a pure driver error borne out of impetuousness but purely a racing incident.

Trust me I feel terrible for Button (although his analysis that the track was bone dry was wrong) but this kind of incident cannot merit a punishment from the stewards, he looked like he lost it, much the same way kimi lost it in monaco 2008. Heartbreak but that's racing.

The incident in turkey to me is a punishable offense since it was wholly avoidable, but Spa is just a racing incident.
Vettel needs to learn how to setup a pass properly. How to show more patience and stalk his opponent better then strike like a viper. To me vettel needs to study film of petrov and kobayashi and see how young daring drivers work their prey before the overtake. ( I excluded LH because he is clearly in a different class)

In the meanwhile the Stewards/FIA need to stop sanitizing the sport to the point of 24 cars running around cautiously. Just because you are granted the power to handout penalties does not mean you have to, just to justify your appointment ( I'm talking to you Nigel and Graham :\ )

[Warriwa]

No penalty required. This is racing. This is almost as bad as Schumacher's ten grid spot penalty for good hard racing where no contact was ever made.

[SGWilko]

It's crazy. Vettel did not deserve a penalty at all. Yes it cost Button, but this is racing. Was Reubens penalised for his shunt on Alonso?

Ummmmm, Rubens went out as a result, Fred carried on and managed to fubar his race all by himself. First by trashing a pair of inters when it was not wet enough, and second by driving on wet paint curbs when he should not have done. Prime example of a guy running out of talent during a race.

How do you plan to issue a drive through to Rubens when he is out of the race exactly? His mistake only caused himself to DNF, not others.

As with Vettel, he ended JB's race, but Seb could continue. The balance was redressed was his lary behaviour has been checked.

[SGWilko]

No penalty required. This is racing. This is almost as bad as Schumacher's ten grid spot penalty for good hard racing where no contact was ever made.

:rotflmao:

[N4D13]

Ummmmm, Rubens went out as a result, Fred carried on and managed to fubar his race all by himself. First by trashing a pair of inters when it was not wet enough, and second by driving on wet paint curbs when he should not have done. Prime example of a guy running out of talent during a race.

How do you plan to issue a drive through to Rubens when he is out of the race exactly? His mistake only caused himself to DNF, not others.

As with Vettel, he ended JB's race, but Seb could continue. The balance was redressed was his lary behaviour has been checked.
The stewards' job is not to make things fair. The fact that Button did or did not finish was irrelevant for a penalty - Vettel did a mistake and he crashed into Button. The stewards decided that it was an avoidable accident and he got a drive through for it. But, given that it was simply a mistake from Vettel, I doubt it should have been penalized. As far as I remember, Webber was close to taking Hamilton out at Australia and he wasn't given any penalty, was he?

[Mia 01]

Yesterday Robert forced Seb off track at very high speed. No penalty?!

[Jag_Warrior]

I have mixed feelings about the penalty. But the incident reminds me very much of when Raikkonen crashed into Sutil at Monaco a couple of years ago. Kimi lost control during heavy braking, crashed into the back of Adrian's car and ruined his race - which would have been a great result for Adrian. For those with a better memory than I have, was there a penalty issued against Kimi for that crash? Who remembers?

[Jag_Warrior]

No penalty required. This is racing. This is almost as bad as Schumacher's ten grid spot penalty for good hard racing where no contact was ever made.

I disagree with this. Had there been contact, considering where Barrichello's car was at the time, we could easily be looking at funeral services for Rubens. If Schumacher believes that was "good, hard racing" then he needs to move to NASCAR, where that sort of thing is allowed. Or maybe move to the IRL, where the drivers are so incompetent that they can't help doing such things. But I've seen enough deaths over the years that I personally don't care to see anymore. And especially not over some mid-pack points.

Vettel didn't intentionally run into Button. But Schumacher did intentionally take Rubens to the wall. Totally different situations. I used to be a Schumacher fan. But his habit of doing things like this is what soured me on him.

[Kevincal]

Think in a real life situation. If 2 people get in an auto accident, imagine the one who caused the accident came away with little car damage, but the other car is now undriveable. Is it right for the person who caused the accident to just go on their way with no reprimand? NO. If you make a stupid mistake all by yourself and end up hurting someone or their property you should pay a penalty, especially if you end up better off than the poor person you caused trouble for. It's obvious Vettel has been flustered lately because his "number 2 driver" teammate has been handing him his ass. ;) He's showing little to no regard for other drivers. He needs to learn how to make a clean pass, plain and simple. He acts like he's playing a video game.

[ioan]

FIA stewards are looneys, always been always will be.
It is like if they only pick idiots to do the job.

Worst part is that they will punish every overtaking move that ends with cars crashing and on the other hand the FIA comes up with idiotic and more idiotic rules every season in a try to improve overtaking! Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

The conclusion is that any organization that grows over a certain size will be full of people who do a bad job without anyone actually caring as long as money keeps flowing.

[truefan72]

How do you plan to issue a drive through to Rubens when he is out of the race exactly? His mistake only caused himself to DNF, not others.

his mistake effectively ruined Alonso's race not to mention the mayhem that occurred behind the crash, with several cars having to take avoiding action and thus allowing others to swiftly pass them. To me that is just as bad as what Vettel did. As someone already mentioned, the yardstick for handing out punishment should be about the incident and not about whether anyone continues or not.

So to be fair. Rubens should then get a 5 place drop for the next race, or Vettel should not have gotten a penalty.

[SGWilko]

FIA stewards ......will punish every overtaking move that ends with cars crashing

Maybe, just maybe the Stewards are making it known that they and the rest of the world interested in F1 would like to see overtaking manouvres that are clean, well executed, and carried out by a guy trying to overtake having respect for his fellow driver(s).

I think we have yet to see any successful competetive overtakes made by Seb.

[SGWilko]

his mistake effectively ruined Alonso's race not to mention the mayhem that occurred behind the crash, with several cars having to take avoiding action and thus allowing others to swiftly pass them. To me that is just as bad as what Vettel did. As someone already mentioned, the yardstick for handing out punishment should be about the incident and not about whether anyone continues or not.

So to be fair. Rubens should then get a 5 place drop for the next race, or Vettel should not have gotten a penalty.

Rubens lost it due to a greasy track, when he was braking in a straight line. Vettel induced his loss of control by moving direction violently while braking.

[truefan72]

Think in a real life situation. If 2 people get in an auto accident, imagine the one who caused the accident came away with little car damage, but the other car is now undriveable. Is it right for the person who caused the accident to just go on their way with no reprimand? NO. If you make a stupid mistake all by yourself and end up hurting someone or their property you should pay a penalty, especially if you end up better off than the poor person you caused trouble for.

I get your point, but this is F1 racing and not street driving. Different set of rules dictates the driving. For one, you don't have to indicate when overtaking ;)

[truefan72]

Rubens lost it due to a greasy track, when he was braking in a straight line. Vettel induced his loss of control by moving direction violently while braking.

...on a slippery track, while attempting to overtake and coming out of the slipstream. matter of fact, the same greasy part of the track where rubens had his mishap

btw it could have been a heavier rain and poor visibility and if rubens still ploughed into Alonso then I would still think he caused the accident and ruined Alonso's race, while causing mayhem behind

[SGWilko]

...on a slippery track, while attempting to overtake and coming out of the slipstream.

As no other car had an issue stopping at that corner on that lap.......

........Gives you an idea how stupid and desperate the move was, does it not?

[truefan72]

As no other car had an issue stopping at that corner on that lap.......

........Gives you an idea how stupid and desperate the move was, does it not?

as I said, I think the move was not smart and slightly impatient, and to date his competitive overtaking skills have been suspect. I just don't think it deserved a penalty. It was a pure racing incident in my book and hopefully the young one will quickly learn to exercise a bit more stealth in his overtaking.

[ioan]

Maybe, just maybe the Stewards are making it known that they and the rest of the world interested in F1 would like to see overtaking manouvres that are clean, well executed, and carried out by a guy trying to overtake having respect for his fellow driver(s).

I think we have yet to see any successful competetive overtakes made by Seb.

Maybe just maybe it is difficult to pull out a very clean overtaking move in equal performance cars when everyone and his do (minus you) knows that without a 2 seconds/lap advantage it is almost impossible to overtake without a mistake from the car in front.

Now, lose the chips on that shoulder and accept what Button said, it was just a racing incident.

[ioan]

I get your point, but this is F1 racing and not street driving. Different set of rules dictates the driving. For one, you don't have to indicate when overtaking ;)

:D :up:

[ioan]

As no other car had an issue stopping at that corner on that lap.......

........Gives you an idea how stupid and desperate the move was, does it not?

That's why it is called an accident! :roleyes:


An accident is a specific, unexpected, unusual and unintended external action which occurs in a particular time and place, with no apparent and deliberate cause but with marked effects.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accident

[SGWilko]

Maybe just maybe it is difficult to pull out a very clean overtaking move in equal performance cars when everyone and his do (minus you) knows that without a 2 seconds/lap advantage it is almost impossible to overtake without a mistake from the car in front.

Now, lose the chips on that shoulder and accept what Button said, it was just a racing incident.

Well, Petrov, Sutil, and Rosberg all managed it.....

No chip on my shoulder, I just see the panalty as a check imposed on Vettel's lary driving.

[ioan]

No chip on my shoulder, I just see the panalty as a check imposed on Vettel's lary driving.

You can not penalize racing drivers for accidents without the message being drive slower or you get punished, which would mean they will not be racing anymore.

[ioan]

Well, Petrov, Sutil, and Rosberg all managed it....

Following a slight mistake by the car in front.

[SGWilko]

Following a slight mistake by the car in front.

As opposed to a c*ck up by the car behind. I think Petrov's pass was without the aid of a mistake by Rosberg, not until they were side by side that is. I note that there was no contact, and both cars continued.

[steveaki13]

This is only my opinion so please dissagree but don't dismiss it. You may think I am wrong, but I may think you are wrong. So we are in the same position at the end of the day. :)

On the lap of the incident drizzle had just started on Vettels onboard camera. I think Hamilton and Button made it into the chicane as they were on a straight-ish lines, the reason Vettel lost it was due to his change of direction and then over correcting the car.

Now while it is clearly his fault and not Button's, I still feel that any other driver could have made the same mistake in the same situation.

To therefore question his ability to overtake on this incident is a bit harsh.
I also then feel that genuine mistakes like this should not be punished.

If a driver drives dangerously (i.e Weaves or clearly runs someone into a walled area, as happened in Hungary) then a penalty should clearly be given out.

If Vettel had missed Button and spun it would still have been the same move made but a different result, then would everyone still think a penalty should be dished out for a dangerous move every time, or do people feel it was the right decesion just because they felt sorry for Button.

We have seen plenty of crashes in F1 over the years coming from mistakes, and if a penalty had been given each time, then very few races from the past would have kept the same result. Because of the penalty given on sunday that means that from now on every crash between cars (which will have had a mistake made at some point) must end in a penalty.


By the way I am a big Jenson fan, and while I like Vettel I don't support him especially so I am not just a Vettel lover, my view would be the same which ever drivers had been involved.
As above all I am an F1 fan.

[ioan]

This is only my opinion so please dissagree but don't dismiss it. You may think I am wrong, but I may think you are wrong. So we are in the same position at the end of the day. :)

On the lap of the incident drizzle had just started on Vettels onboard camera. I think Hamilton and Button made it into the chicane as they were on a straight-ish lines, the reason Vettel lost it was due to his change of direction and then over correcting the car.

Now while it is clearly his fault and not Button's, I still feel that any other driver could have made the same mistake in the same situation.

To therefore question his ability to overtake on this incident is a bit harsh.
I also then feel that genuine mistakes like this should not be punished.

If a driver drives dangerously (i.e Weaves or clearly runs someone into a walled area, as happened in Hungary) then a penalty should clearly be given out.

If Vettel had missed Button and spun it would still have been the same move made but a different result, then would everyone still think a penalty should be dished out for a dangerous move every time, or do people feel it was the right decesion just because they felt sorry for Button.

We have seen plenty of crashes in F1 over the years coming from mistakes, and if a penalty had been given each time, then very few races from the past would have kept the same result. Because of the penalty given on sunday that means that from now on every crash between cars (which will have had a mistake made at some point) must end in a penalty.


By the way I am a big Jenson fan, and while I like Vettel I don't support him especially so I am not just a Vettel lover, my view would be the same which ever drivers had been involved.
As above all I am an F1 fan.

:up:
Great argumentation. :up:

[Saint Devote]

Button did nothing wrong, Vettel stupidly lost control and took Button out of the race, meanwhile Vettel got to continue in the race. It's only fair that Vettel get some sort of penalty in that situation. It's only a "racing incident" if it's unclear whos fault it is in an accident... In this case, a 2 year old could pick out who was at fault!

I agree with your judgement - it was a racing accident but under the circumstances there had to be some sort of penalty because it was an action taken and a misjudgement by Vettel.

I do not think he should be attacked and criticized as people are doing and the incident ought to be left behind - the penalty and the level of punishment - a drive through - was correct.

It is not easy to decide and I have full confidence in the judgement of Nigel Mansell on the panel. He is not just another f1 driver by any measure - he raced wheel to wheel with Senna and Prost and Piquet. He was a very quick driver, a champion and beat them all in races in all types of conditions as well as being beaten.

[Kevincal]

Yep, who are we to question the judgement of a legendary F1 racer!? None of us have even sat in an F1 car... Probably. I've never even layed eyes on one in person.

I think that Vettel convinced himself earlier in the season that this was his championship to win. Sebs driving has become over aggressive and dangerous ever since Mark started beating him... It's sad to see Seb driving in desperation, in interviews he was all smiles before, now I think some of his true colors are coming out. You know I always did think it was odd how much Vettel smiled, almost like he was so confident he would win the Champ. this year. So now I'm thinking all of his smiles are not because he is mr happy go lucky, but more a case of extreme over confidence. I hope Webber continues to teach him a lesson this year. After all of the bad luck Mark has had in his career, this year has been glorious for him. Hope he wins it all.

[Saint Devote]

Yep, who are we to question the judgement of a legendary F1 racer!? None of us have even sat in an F1 car... Probably. I've never even layed eyes on one in person.

I think that Vettel convinced himself earlier in the season that this was his championship to win. Sebs driving has become over aggressive and dangerous ever since Mark started beating him... It's sad to see Seb driving in desperation, in interviews he was all smiles before, now I think some of his true colors are coming out. You know I always did think it was odd how much Vettel smiled, almost like he was so confident he would win the Champ. this year. So now I'm thinking all of his smiles are not because he is mr happy go lucky, but more a case of extreme over confidence. I hope Webber continues to teach him a lesson this year. After all of the bad luck Mark has had in his career, this year has been glorious for him. Hope he wins it all.

Lets put it this way - Webber had clutch problems which caused his starting problem off the grid.

At Spa he once again did not put a wheel wrong where winner Hamilton almost ended it against the barrier.

He has it appears studied the word of Senna: to win a championship it is essential for a driver to know when to be aggressive and when to calculate - Webber was at his calculating best in Spa following his amazing drive in Hungary.

Vettel does not have the depth of driver management that Mclaren has. They do not have a Ross Brawn or a Flavio Briatore.

I have said this previously - but Vettel reminds me a lot of Jochen Rindt. I think that he does the same to Bernie - who in f1 is the closest to Sebastian.

Drivers do not mature at the same rate.

This is a BIG learning year for Vettel. He is the quickest driver in f1 today - out of the last 30 grands prix he has won 11 pole positions. Had he nothad the problem with the car earlier this year that could have been 14 or 15 pp.

He has a REAL determination to win - as Senna said, all driver say this but very few actually mean it.

Vettel will calm down - and we have already seen what he can do at Monza 2008 or Suzuka 2009.

There are people in f1 questioning his ability - which is ridiculous. This is a question of attitude. Soon things will begin to settle for Vettel. We are now arriving at tracks that he has won at and perhaps this will be the trigger.

Nobody should write this driver off for the rest of 2010 and definitely not beyond.

In my view: understand Jochen Rindt and you will understand Sebastian Vettel.

Mark my words, he is the quickest and he will be better than either Alonso or Hamilton.

[Valve Bounce]

Vettel:"Obviously I'm not proud of it, I lost the car going over the bump as I was braking and unfortunately hit Jenson,...."

All I can say is thank goodness he didn't hit Webber instead. The forum would have lit up like a Christmas tree.

[Saint Devote]

Vettel:"Obviously I'm not proud of it, I lost the car going over the bump as I was braking and unfortunately hit Jenson,...."

All I can say is thank goodness he didn't hit Webber instead. The forum would have lit up like a Christmas tree.

Right car - wrong driver in my view :vader:

[SGWilko]

any other driver could have made the same mistake in the same situation.

I think most would have been prgmatic and patient enough to pick a better overtaking spot. Keeping the inside line, JB was always going to win the corner, then hang Seb out to dry at the final corner - a la Kimi in 2009. [Edit, Hmmm, 2008 methinks. Doh!!!]
My opinion is that the penalty was deserved, if Seb had gone off alone, then no penalty, as there is no avoidable accident.

Simples.

[F1boat]

As with Vettel, he ended JB's race, but Seb could continue. The balance was redressed was his lary behaviour has been checked.

Yes and I am happy that the stewards punish such behavior :) Drivers should be careful, not risking the health of their colleagues. I am afraid that a person might be hurt for some fanboys to understand that overtaking isn't everything.

[Valve Bounce]

He pushed Bunsen out, he deserved a penalty on that account. I think the punishment fitted the crime/wrongdoing.

[555-04Q2]

Ummmmm, Rubens went out as a result, Fred carried on and managed to fubar his race all by himself. First by trashing a pair of inters when it was not wet enough, and second by driving on wet paint curbs when he should not have done. Prime example of a guy running out of talent during a race.

How do you plan to issue a drive through to Rubens when he is out of the race exactly? His mistake only caused himself to DNF, not others.

As with Vettel, he ended JB's race, but Seb could continue. The balance was redressed was his lary behaviour has been checked.

He still afffected Alonso's race, negatively. Are you saying it's fine to bunt people as long as they don't retire as a result. Preposterous my dear Watson.

[SGWilko]

He still afffected Alonso's race, negatively. Are you saying it's fine to bunt people as long as they don't retire as a result. Preposterous my dear Watson.

OK, lets play the preposterous game here.

Suppose, after Alonso had pitted and taken on inters, the heavens opened, and lo and behold, Fred wins the race.

Is Rubens going to be congratulated?

[Valve Bounce]

He still afffected Alonso's race, negatively. Are you saying it's fine to bunt people as long as they don't retire as a result. Preposterous my dear Watson.

True - Rubens should have been given a drive through.

[SGWilko]

True - Rubens should have been given a drive through.

Would have to have been a 'jog through' though!!!!!

[BDunnell]

I disagree with this. Had there been contact, considering where Barrichello's car was at the time, we could easily be looking at funeral services for Rubens. If Schumacher believes that was "good, hard racing" then he needs to move to NASCAR, where that sort of thing is allowed. Or maybe move to the IRL, where the drivers are so incompetent that they can't help doing such things. But I've seen enough deaths over the years that I personally don't care to see anymore. And especially not over some mid-pack points.

Vettel didn't intentionally run into Button. But Schumacher did intentionally take Rubens to the wall. Totally different situations.

My view exactly. Schumacher's penalty was justified, totally, for precisely those reasons. Vettel's isn't, although it was a pretty stupid-looking piece of driving on his part. He's been hard done by.

[Sonic]

There must be equal treatment. Rubens lost control in a similar manner and hit Fred as he was out on the spot the incident was to be reviewed post race. AFAIK no punishment was dealt out so its only fair that an equally accidental shunt should not be punished - yet Vettel gets a drive through. :rolleyes:

However that said Mr Vettel is getting involved in waaaay to many bumps. There comes a point where it can't just be "bad luck" and a long hard look needs to be taken before the fastest driver of the year manages to flush his championship hopes down the toilet.

[SGWilko]

Alonso, had he not messed up qually, would not have been in Rubens trajectory.......

[Sonic]

Alonso, had he not messed up qually, would not have been in Rubens trajectory.......

Does that matter? He did and he was.

[SGWilko]

Does that matter? He did and he was.

Only because it shows how vulnerable you are mid-pack.

[markabilly]

True - Rubens should have been given a drive through.
I think the punishment should have been the same for both Vettel and RB as I see no difference between the two, except RB was the dumber move, by far.

But his punishment was to lose the front wheel/suspension, so the FIA should have got some sledge hammers and knocked off Vettel's front wheel/suspension as well.

But the actual punishment makes about the same amount of sense as i do before my first glass of kool aid in the morning.

As I said it before when Lewis received the infamous Spa penalty, I could see that penalty if the track were dry, but when it was wet and they were on dry tires, a whole another ballgame,so I think no penalty.

Same here. While Button, of all the drivers out there, is by far the least deserving of getting chopped like that, stuff happens!!!

OTOH, It did look like Button may have been a bit early on the brakes and vettel went outside, not so much as to pass but to avoid the collision--only to lose it. Or maybe not.......again the track was wet for him as well.

On a dry track my opinion would no doubt probably be different, but here, I really see no need for any penalty on RB or Vettel

In any event, the FIA is very inconsistent in how they judge these things, VERY. :rolleyes:

[Blancvino]

No penalty required. This is racing. This is almost as bad as Schumacher's ten grid spot penalty for good hard racing where no contact was ever made.

I'll agree with you on Vettel, stupid move, but a drive through was not warrented. Schumacher, in my view, should have been tossed for at least one race. He could have killed Rubens.

[ioan]

There must be equal treatment. Rubens lost control in a similar manner and hit Fred as he was out on the spot the incident was to be reviewed post race. AFAIK no punishment was dealt out so its only fair that an equally accidental shunt should not be punished - yet Vettel gets a drive through. :rolleyes:

However that said Mr Vettel is getting involved in waaaay to many bumps. There comes a point where it can't just be "bad luck" and a long hard look needs to be taken before the fastest driver of the year manages to flush his championship hopes down the toilet.

His team managers need to sit down with him and probably even get him a trainer to get him in the right mind set.
He's young and impatient and will certainly learn from his own mistakes, however it would be so much better if he could learn without all the mistakes that will most likely cost him the title this season.

He's the only driver out there who has the natural speed to take the fight to Lewis and he isn't making the best use of it.

[ioan]

He could have killed Rubens.

If he would have wanted it, which wasn't the case. Still a dangerous and premeditated move, unlike Vettel's accident.

[truefan72]

This is only my opinion so please dissagree but don't dismiss it. You may think I am wrong, but I may think you are wrong. So we are in the same position at the end of the day. :)

On the lap of the incident drizzle had just started on Vettels onboard camera. I think Hamilton and Button made it into the chicane as they were on a straight-ish lines, the reason Vettel lost it was due to his change of direction and then over correcting the car.

Now while it is clearly his fault and not Button's, I still feel that any other driver could have made the same mistake in the same situation.

To therefore question his ability to overtake on this incident is a bit harsh.
I also then feel that genuine mistakes like this should not be punished.

If a driver drives dangerously (i.e Weaves or clearly runs someone into a walled area, as happened in Hungary) then a penalty should clearly be given out.

If Vettel had missed Button and spun it would still have been the same move made but a different result, then would everyone still think a penalty should be dished out for a dangerous move every time, or do people feel it was the right decesion just because they felt sorry for Button.

We have seen plenty of crashes in F1 over the years coming from mistakes, and if a penalty had been given each time, then very few races from the past would have kept the same result. Because of the penalty given on sunday that means that from now on every crash between cars (which will have had a mistake made at some point) must end in a penalty.


By the way I am a big Jenson fan, and while I like Vettel I don't support him especially so I am not just a Vettel lover, my view would be the same which ever drivers had been involved.
As above all I am an F1 fan.


while I agree with pretty much the whole post I will add this point of criticism on Vettel.

He needs to learn how to setup up his overtaking move better and perhaps show some more patience is doing the move. The way I see it, it seemed pretty clear to me prior to the crash that Vettel had Button's number, he was in the perfect position to stalk the guy for another lap or two or even for just a few more corners and take him at source, les combes or malmedy. This is called driving smart and showing the guy in front that you have his number.

Vettel tried to make the pass at the first available opportunity without regard to conditions or anything else. It was a slightly. brazen move that cost him a good finish and took out another driver. i hope he starts to learn from his mistakes soon.

[truefan72]

Yep, who are we to question the judgement of a legendary F1 racer!? None of us have even sat in an F1 car... Probably. I've never even layed eyes on one in person.

I think that Vettel convinced himself earlier in the season that this was his championship to win. Sebs driving has become over aggressive and dangerous ever since Mark started beating him... It's sad to see Seb driving in desperation, in interviews he was all smiles before, now I think some of his true colors are coming out...

good post. While I want Hamilton to win the WDC, I would be happy if Webber won it too. While not that harsh in my assessment of Vettel, I do agree that he did display somewhat of overconfidence in his demeanor earlier in the season and it's clear that Webber outperforming him is having an affect.

[truefan72]

Vettel:"Obviously I'm not proud of it, I lost the car going over the bump as I was braking and unfortunately hit Jenson,...."

All I can say is thank goodness he didn't hit Webber instead. The forum would have lit up like a Christmas tree.

lol,

It would have been fireworks for 2 weeks

[Sonic]

I think the punishment should have been the same for both Vettel and RB as I see no difference between the two, except RB was the dumber move, by far.


Eh? Rubens - as did the whole of the field - locked up into bus stop, the only difference for Rubens was the bright red Ferrari on the escape road infront of him. Thats just plain bad luck. Had the road been clear RB would have run harmlessly off line too.

Vettel too would have spun on his own had he not been in close proximity to Bunsen so the two situation are (in my mind) nigh on identical and none should have been punished.

[steveaki13]

while I agree with pretty much the whole post I will add this point of criticism on Vettel.

He needs to learn how to setup up his overtaking move better and perhaps show some more patience is doing the move. The way I see it, it seemed pretty clear to me prior to the crash that Vettel had Button's number, he was in the perfect position to stalk the guy for another lap or two or even for just a few more corners and take him at source, les combes or malmedy. This is called driving smart and showing the guy in front that you have his number.

Vettel tried to make the pass at the first available opportunity without regard to conditions or anything else. It was a slightly. brazen move that cost him a good finish and took out another driver. i hope he starts to learn from his mistakes soon.


I also agree with that totally, it was a silly mistake he looked as though he could have passed him easily later on. Needed to wait and set it up better.

[truefan72]

His team managers need to sit down with him and probably even get him a trainer to get him in the right mind set.
He's young and impatient and will certainly learn from his own mistakes, however it would be so much better if he could learn without all the mistakes that will most likely cost him the title this season.

He's the only driver out there who has the natural speed to take the fight to Lewis and he isn't making the best use of it.

again, this is where Christian Horners lack of ability comes through. I don't believe either driver have any real respect for the guy and it seems to me that he is incapable of actually parlaying some sound advice to vettel instead of cuddling the guy. RBR need a pat symmonds type of guy in the team who can go to vettel and really help this guy improve his race management without the need to stroke his ego. DC would have been a good candidate, except for his shambolic last 3 years in F1 in terms of driver incidents

[Robinho]

i agree with the penalty, Vettel made a mess of it and took a rival out, albeit not deliberately, but it was not too clever. He changed direction far harder than he should have done in a braking zone and lost the car. for me the penalty was justified. He and He alone is throwing away a 2nd chance at a title, he messed up with Kubica in Oz last year, also Monaco, not sure if there were any other instances. This year he's run into his teammate in Turkey, punctured a tyre by hitting Lewis?mark at Silverstone and then hit a Force India out of the way (Sutil) whilst trying to recover.

He f**ed up in Hungary and got a drive through and now again in Spa he's misjudged a taken out a championshiip rival.

In isolation any one of the incidents could be easily written off as a mistake and forgiven, but he is too error prone to mount a championship challenge at the moment and I think deserved his penalty. Its a pity as he and Button were in a very good position and he is undoubtedly an incredibly quick driver, but i think he needs to settle a bit

as for Rubens, no-one made the corner, there were cars going off all over the place, Alonso had already overshot for the same reason and it was plain unlucky for both drivers. you would have to penalise everyone who went off track at that corner, they all were out of control and could well have hit each other.

[BDunnell]

again, this is where Christian Horners lack of ability comes through. I don't believe either driver have any real respect for the guy and it seems to me that he is incapable of actually parlaying some sound advice to vettel instead of cuddling the guy.

Given the reports that there are German-speaking and English-speaking 'factions' within the team, something one can well imagine — it being only natural, to some extent — it may well be that things aren't quite as simple as Horner having any lack of ability. And whether Vettel is someone who takes advice easily now I'm not sure. I find it difficult to imagine that Helmut Marko is that fulsome in his criticism when he is face-to-face with Vettel.

[BDunnell]

In isolation any one of the incidents could be easily written off as a mistake and forgiven, but he is too error prone to mount a championship challenge at the moment and I think deserved his penalty. Its a pity as he and Button were in a very good position and he is undoubtedly an incredibly quick driver, but i think he needs to settle a bit

I don't think any of this is the slightest reason to impose a penalty.

[jeffmr2]

To me it looked like Button was so far off the pace it caught Vettel out,was nothing more than a racing incident which needed no further action.

[i_max2k2]

I dont think the penalty that Vettel received was unfair, he was trying to do a impossible overtaking maneuver, and ended up looking stupid, If this can be justified then we would see a lot more accidents, not all drivers are over opportunistic, any matured driver would have waited for the right moment to do the move, whatever the disabilities of the car or not, Vettel has been over aggressive this year, and its going to cost him the title, if he doesn't mature he might loose some more on the same attitude, I'm glad he got the drive through, now he would atleast think once before being over opportunistic and before taking out a team mate or another car.

[mstillhere]

I have mixed feelings about the penalty. But the incident reminds me very much of when Raikkonen crashed into Sutil at Monaco a couple of years ago. Kimi lost control during heavy braking, crashed into the back of Adrian's car and ruined his race - which would have been a great result for Adrian. For those with a better memory than I have, was there a penalty issued against Kimi for that crash? Who remembers?

Not to mentionj when Hamilto crashed onto Raikonnen. Did he get penalized??

[SGWilko]

Not to mentionj when Hamilto crashed onto Raikonnen. Did he get penalized??

Should Kubica be penalised for being distracted by listening to instructions on the radio and making adjustments in the wheel when he overshot his pit box?

[555-04Q2]

OK, lets play the preposterous game here.

Suppose, after Alonso had pitted and taken on inters, the heavens opened, and lo and behold, Fred wins the race.

Is Rubens going to be congratulated?

And what is Alonso had been killed by a stray spanner when he pitted? Would Rebuns be convicted of murder?

Thats how rediculous your post sounded :D

[Robinho]

I don't think any of this is the slightest reason to impose a penalty.

Thats good, because i never said it was, i agree with the penalty, and the bit of my post you quoted was my opinion on Vettel's increasing list of incidents, which i think reflects on his ability to fight for titles at this stage in his career

[SGWilko]

And what is Alonso had been killed by a stray spanner when he pitted? Would Rebuns be convicted of murder?

Thats how rediculous your post sounded :D

Just bear in mind how many other drivers went straight on, at that corner on that lap, just as did Rubens.

Do you not perhaps suppose that the Stewards and Nige took that into consideration?

Your point is moot, I mentioned about the theoretical race win for Alonso, taking on inters as a result of the accident, which was caused inadvertantly by Rubens, did Rubens throw the theoretical spanner at him, having miraculously got to the pits before Onslo? :D

[Mia 01]

According penalties, with the race stewards we have this year every incident is a lottery.

[SGWilko]

According penalties, with the race stewards we have this year every incident is a lottery.

It could be you!!!

[Retro Formula 1]

Rubins was out of the race so how can you give him a drive through. HIS RACE IS TOAST!!

Seb took out another car which happened to be a title challenger because of HIS MISTAKE. He can still continue so what's wrong with a drive through. Sounds OK to me. Sounds OK to Seb. Just a few people racing armchairs that have a problem.

[ShiftingGears]

Not to mentionj when Hamilto crashed onto Raikonnen. Did he get penalized??

Yes.

[SGWilko]

Yes.

But, but, but that was just a mistake?

Right?

:rotflmao:

[Retro Formula 1]

But, but, but that was just a mistake?

Right?

:rotflmao:

Must have been a biased steward. Was he Spannish? :)

[SGWilko]

Just a few people racing armchairs that have a problem.

I bet my armchair is faster'n yours....!!! ;)

[Mia 01]

Yes.

He got a ten places grid penalty for the next race, same as MS got this race.

[SGWilko]

He got a ten places grid penalty for the next race, same as MS got this race.

Travesty, must be bribery and corruption that! ;)

[Retro Formula 1]

I bet my armchair is faster'n yours....!!! ;)

Rubbish. I've knocked out the baffles in mine so it must go faster. Now, when I fart, it bounces off the surrounding hills. :D

[SGWilko]

Rubbish. I've knocked out the baffles in mine so it must go faster. Now, when I fart, it bounces off the surrounding hills. :D

Well, mines a recliner - beat that!

[Retro Formula 1]

Well, mines a recliner - beat that!

CHEAT!!

Moveable reclining devices are banned on static seating devices by the FIA (Forums Idiotic Armchairers)

[ioan]

I don't think any of this is the slightest reason to impose a penalty.

Completely agree. Each incident has to be seen as a stand alone incident not as an emotional affair that builds up and is followed by irrational punishments.

[Robinho]

Completely agree. Each incident has to be seen as a stand alone incident not as an emotional affair that builds up and is followed by irrational punishments.

Oh FFS, read then comment! I said what i thought of the incident and why i agreed with the penalty. The rest of my post was my opinion on why i think Vettel is too error prone to mount a decent championship challenge, not a call for punishments.

I also explained this in light of BDunnels comment before you decided to jump on the bandwagon.


i agree with the penalty, Vettel made a mess of it and took a rival out, albeit not deliberately, but it was not too clever. He changed direction far harder than he should have done in a braking zone and lost the car. for me the penalty was justified. He and He alone is throwing away a 2nd chance at a title, he messed up with Kubica in Oz last year, also Monaco, not sure if there were any other instances. This year he's run into his teammate in Turkey, punctured a tyre by hitting Lewis?mark at Silverstone and then hit a Force India out of the way (Sutil) whilst trying to recover.

He f**ed up in Hungary and got a drive through and now again in Spa he's misjudged a taken out a championshiip rival.

In isolation any one of the incidents could be easily written off as a mistake and forgiven, but he is too error prone to mount a championship challenge at the moment and I think deserved his penalty. Its a pity as he and Button were in a very good position and he is undoubtedly an incredibly quick driver, but i think he needs to settle a bit




Each incident should be judged on its own merits, although there is a case for repeat offences being dealt with in a harsher way - i seem to remember Vettel and Hamilton receiving a reprimand for their pitlane race earlier in the season, with a condition that if they did it again they would receive a penalty

[maxmach]

It's called racing........not parading

[Robinho]

its called motor racing, not banger racing

[ioan]

I also explained this in light of BDunnels comment before you decided to jump on the bandwagon.

Sorry, I probably missed it. :)

[Robinho]

Sorry, I probably missed it. :)

ok, appreciate that :)

[555-04Q2]

Just bear in mind how many other drivers went straight on, at that corner on that lap, just as did Rubens.

Do you not perhaps suppose that the Stewards and Nige took that into consideration?

Your point is moot, I mentioned about the theoretical race win for Alonso, taking on inters as a result of the accident, which was caused inadvertantly by Rubens, did Rubens throw the theoretical spanner at him, having miraculously got to the pits before Onslo? :D

How many drivers went straight on does not matter, they are all racing and these should be classed as racing incidents. No need for penalties.

Drivers are going to hit each other, spin out, touch etc. This is racing for heavens sake! Don't penalise every minor incident, it's the same for everyone. Now if someone takes a person out on purpose ( ie: Senna, Schumi etc ) then by all means penalise them :)

[Retro Formula 1]

<snigger>

[SGWilko]

How many drivers went straight on does not matter,

Of course it matters, as the whole world and his dog can see for themselves the state of the track and the effect this had on the field.

In the crash kid's case, he alone lost it on the lap he tried to get in the cockpit with JB.

It matters very much indeed.

[ArrowsFA1]

Credit to Seb for calling JB to apologise :up:


Button has also revealed that Vettel phoned him on Sunday night in Belgium to apologise for the crash that dented both their title challenges.
"Seb called me after the race in the evening to apologise for the accident he caused, which was good, but it doesn't give me my points back," he said. "He didn't do it on purpose. It was definitely a mistake, but I was the person who paid the price. That is the pity for me. But we've got to put that behind us and look forward now."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86322

[SGWilko]

Credit to Seb for calling JB to apologise :up:


http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86322

Yes, and he didn't just send an SMS!!!

[Retro Formula 1]

Seb used to be a very likeable character but then came across as a cocky little s**t but perhaps that was just the media skewing things.

Respect to the fella for taking responsibility and apologising.

[Saint Devote]

Of course the media skews things.

Well said Seb Vet:

Formula 1 is a great show if everything goes well, you are the greatest. If you make an error, and some people simply do not understand exactly the reasons why, then you very fast become the idiot. The most important thing, therefore, is that I know the truth myself.

[Robinho]

when i read the quote first time i though he said he'd become a "very fast idiot". i wasn't going to disagree, but i did think he was being a little harsh on himself!

credit where due though, its not easy to admit to a mistake, even less so to man up and apologise for it. I hope he does learn from it, the sport needs him as a genuine contender

[Sleeper]

Vettel made a boneheaded move, first by expecting Button to move over to the right and let him through on the inside (same mistake Webber made in Valencia) then he makes big steering inputs on a damp track with predictable results.

To be honest though, the one factor that justifies the penalty is that Vettel is beginning to make a bit of a habit of this. As others have pointed out his stupid errors that led to crashes with Webber in Fuji 07, Kubica in Australia 09, and Turkey earlier this year. These are bad lapses of judgment and its becoming a bit too regular, so a penalty is definitely deserved IMO.

[motetarip]

My simples equation:

Attempted overtake + loss of control + taking out competitor = penalty.

The question here is whether Vettel was attempting an overtake or swerving to avoid Button. I think he was overtaking, but that's my opinion.

[Retro Formula 1]

Was he really trying to overtake? I know he said he was but to me it looked like he was way too far back.

To me it looked like he was trying to unsettle Button who was doing a sterling job in front with a damaged car.

Seb was not going down the inside and jurked to the outside. He may have been trying to get a better corner exit for a possible pass at the next corner but he wasn't trying to overtake on this one I don't think.

[Robinho]

I'm afraid Vettel disaggrees with you, infact in his statement on Autosport here http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86334 he stated
And in Spa, when I lost the car while overtaking Jenson Button I make a mistake too. But I am open and honest enough to admit that.

so not only was he tryong to overtake, he actually thinks he was overtaking (technically he got alonside but i'm not sure that counts as he was 90 degrees to the track at theat point ;) )

[Retro Formula 1]

I'm afraid Vettel disaggrees with you, infact in his statement on Autosport here http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86334 he stated

so not only was he tryong to overtake, he actually thinks he was overtaking (technically he got alonside but i'm not sure that counts as he was 90 degrees to the track at theat point ;) )

I know, I read that earlier.

He was never going to make a move on that corner but he could have started the overtake move there by flicking left, going wide in and tight out for the next. IIRC, he was a good car length clear of Button when he lost it wasn't he?

Here's a website.

http://rutube.ru/tracks/3535512.html?v=7f461b240a9b84467463b462c6c7fa1b

Seb was about a car length behind when he lost it. He wanted to flick left but it was impossible to overtake there legally. If he had of got a run though, Button would have closed the left off for the corner anyway so I can't figure out what he was trying to do really?

[Robinho]

i'm not sure, i thought he was very close coming into the bus stop and definatley looked up the inside. Button covered the line and Seb seemed to try and complete the move by trying the outside. that or he'd outbraked himself and was avoiding the back of Button, only to lose it anyway. Either was, he definately had a run on Jenson and a pass was on had Button not covered the line all the way into the braking zone.

[SGWilko]

i'm not sure, i thought he was very close coming into the bus stop and definatley looked up the inside. Button covered the line and Seb seemed to try and complete the move by trying the outside. that or he'd outbraked himself and was avoiding the back of Button, only to lose it anyway. Either was, he definately had a run on Jenson and a pass was on had Button not covered the line all the way into the braking zone.

Isn't this all a bit academic.

The only realistic way Vettel was going to get by was under braking, as the gearing of the RBR was not long enough in top. Ignore the wheezing Renault smokescreen - the factory team certainly are, anyway.

Seb wanted to nail Button at the final chicane because he felt he had to, and it cost him the race.

Consider this;

Button had a damaged wing - he would have had to change it at the pit stop. Given a trye only stop = circa 4secs, if Seb had bided his time, the extra delay in changing JB's wing would have allowed Seb to get ahead.

[Retro Formula 1]

Could be, could be.

The onboard footage is quite good. Where that turn is, it's just a squirt, brake and flick anyway so no opportunity to get any momentum and outbrake someone. The brake is very quick and Jenson was on the brakes for the same time and distance as the last lap.

I think you may be right in that he outbroke himself a little and got crossed up trying to unsettle Jenson.

[SGWilko]

Could be, could be.

The onboard footage is quite good. Where that turn is, it's just a squirt, brake and flick anyway so no opportunity to get any momentum and outbrake someone. The brake is very quick and Jenson was on the brakes for the same time and distance as the last lap.

I think you may be right in that he outbroke himself a little and got crossed up trying to unsettle Jenson.

Ah, so Vettel unsettled himself trying to unsettle JB?

How unsettling! ;)

[DexDexter]

I think one reason for Vettel's mistakes could be that he knows his car is slowish on the straights and it's not easy to overtake with it so perhaps he just tries too much and makes mistakes for that reason.

[555-04Q2]

In the crash kid's case, he alone lost it on the lap he tried to get in the cockpit with JB.

In Reubens case he lost it on his own too!

[ioan]

In Reubens case he lost it on his own too!

But Rubens is not called Vettel, and that makes all the difference! ;)

[Retro Formula 1]

I'm coming around to cuting Seb a bit of slack for this one.

There is a theory that the flexing nose with the sudden direction change may have unsettled the car and there was also a bit of moisture around that may have contributed.

All in all, it was a driver mistake but conditions were challenging and he has admitted his mistake and apologised. He got a drive through and that's good enough for me.

Strangly, I come out of this with some respect restored for Seb. Yes, he does seem to be a bit crash happy but he'll grow out of it.

[SGWilko]

In Reubens case he lost it on his own too!

Errrrrrrrr,

On that lap, Lewis, Kubica, Button etc all overshot.

You conveniently forgot to mention that.......

[ioan]

Errrrrrrrr,

On that lap, Lewis, Kubica, Button etc all overshot.



That's no excuse for running into another car.

[SGWilko]

That's no excuse for running into another car.

No excuse at all, just pointing out that Rubens did the same as most others at that corner.

Alonso, sadly, was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[Robinho]

No excuse at all, just pointing out that Rubens did the same as most others at that corner.

Alonso, sadly, was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

that wrong place being also off the circuit, having also lost control and overshot the corner. any of the cars that lost control could have hit one that was just in front, it was pretty lucky that Rubens and Alsono were the only casualties

[ioan]

Alonso, sadly, was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

We can say the same about Button. ;)

[SGWilko]

We can say the same about Button. ;)

Indeed, but the point you miss is that Seb induced his loss of control by violent change in direction under braking.

Rubens, like all the others, was braking in a straight line.

[ioan]

Indeed, but the point you miss is that Seb induced his loss of control by violent change in direction under braking.

Rubens, like all the others, was braking in a straight line.

Had Rubens braked a few meters earlier he wouldn't have hit Alonso either.
You see it is very easy to find argument pro and contra when it is about an accident! ;)

[markabilly]

Had Rubens braked a few meters earlier he wouldn't have hit Alonso either.
You see it is very easy to find argument pro and contra when it is about an accident! ;)
If rubens had retired a couple of years ago and not come back......

i wonder if he would give me the time of day.....

[ShiftingGears]

Indeed, but the point you miss is that Seb induced his loss of control by violent change in direction under braking.

Rubens, like all the others, was braking in a straight line.

And if Vettel didn't swerve he would've rear ended Button anyway, and the result would've been exactly the same as the Rubens/Alonso incident.

[motetarip]

And if Vettel didn't swerve he would've rear ended Button anyway, and the result would've been exactly the same as the Rubens/Alonso incident.

would he have though? that's not even conjecture

[ZEROX]

That was just a racing incident . If they keep give penalties to the driver , the driver maybe no longer fight hard for the position . What Vettel is the true racing driver should do . But not to crash the car of course . Overtaking makes the racing exciting . Crashing it makes it more exciting , for the spectators .

[Zico]

Have a look at the amount of front wing flex going on when he pulls across Jensons slipstream.. http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xem8h4_belgium2010-vettel-crashes-into-but_auto

[Bagwan]

Have a look at the amount of front wing flex going on when he pulls across Jensons slipstream.. http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xem8h4_belgium2010-vettel-crashes-into-but_auto

Wow , I hadn't paid much attention to that on-board before .
That really is a scary amount of movement , and easily explains why he lost it .
As he passes out into the open air , he has just come from having his wing pressed down on the other side of button .
The radical change in direction wasn't what got him , it seems .
It looks more like the right side of his wing slamming downwards as he broke the slipstream unsettled the other side of the car at the same time as the extra drag was added .

This is a good reason why wings are mandated to be stiff .

[Saint Devote]

However, neither Seb or Web would exchange it for "more safety" if it gives them that unfair advantage all drivers want.

[SGWilko]

Wow , I hadn't paid much attention to that on-board before .
That really is a scary amount of movement , and easily explains why he lost it .
As he passes out into the open air , he has just come from having his wing pressed down on the other side of button .
The radical change in direction wasn't what got him , it seems .
It looks more like the right side of his wing slamming downwards as he broke the slipstream unsettled the other side of the car at the same time as the extra drag was added .

This is a good reason why wings are mandated to be stiff .

Posted a while back under the flexi wings thread;


Go and watch an onboard re-play of the Vettel/Button crash - the Red Bull wing flexes way too much as it moves in and out of the dirty air from JB's car.

Is this a case of catching yourself out with your own tom foolery.

It shows - EXACTLY - what the RB6 wing does under load. SO, while it appears Mercedes & McLaren were moaning about it, they have a real and valid point IMO

[Retro Formula 1]

Wow , I hadn't paid much attention to that on-board before .
That really is a scary amount of movement , and easily explains why he lost it .
As he passes out into the open air , he has just come from having his wing pressed down on the other side of button .
The radical change in direction wasn't what got him , it seems .
It looks more like the right side of his wing slamming downwards as he broke the slipstream unsettled the other side of the car at the same time as the extra drag was added .

This is a good reason why wings are mandated to be stiff .

This is what I pointed out a couple of days ago. I don't think it can completely excuse Seb as he is in charge of the car and it's not as if the flexible wing failed but I think it was a contributing factor in the accident.

The flexible wing and floor has given Red Bull a fantastic advantage this season but there is a problem when they act in an unexpected manner a bit like ground effects.

STD is correct though and neither Webber or Vettel would consider giving them up for an instant. They would be on par with the McLaren then and eaten for lunch by Lewis :D

I think that the amount of flex was reduced at the GP and will be further reduced at the next one to bring them more in line with the regulations and comply with new testing. Perhaps this problem may then disappear.

[555-04Q2]

Errrrrrrrr,

On that lap, Lewis, Kubica, Button etc all overshot.

You conveniently forgot to mention that.......

Reubens was driving the Williams, not the other drivers you mention. It is the same for Vettel, Reubens, Kubica etc, they have their own cars and are individually responsible for controlling their respective cars. How many peoiple go off is irrelevant. If hitting someone requires a penaly, it should be the case in all incidents.

[SGWilko]

Reubens was driving the Williams, not the other drivers you mention. It is the same for Vettel, Reubens, Kubica etc, they have their own cars and are individually responsible for controlling their respective cars. How many peoiple go off is irrelevant.

Rubens accident was not avoidable because the prevailing conditions of the track caught him and most of the rest of the field out on that lap, at that corner.


If hitting someone requires a penaly, it should be the case in all incidents.

No, because the penalty was causing an avoidable accident.

Vettel was the only driver who went off unaided at that corner on lap 16, because of his violent direction change which induced a tank slapper he could not control. He caused the accident which was avoidable.

[Saint Devote]

Given that Barrichello races on the verge of being OUT of control as his attack on Alonso's Ferrari showed - Schumi HAS to be relived he came away from Hungary all safe and sound!

This explains why Ruby was so shaken and hysterical afterwards - he probably barely held it together in close company with his nemesis.

Further - Barrichello is an experienced codger, yes? Then he knew the rule on track is once a driver makes a move, a second move is not permitted.

Hence, dear old Pedi-Chanello ought to have used his mind and instead of excercising the considerable chip on his shoulder where Schumi is concerned, simply moved to the left and taken the line into the corner.

Oh yes, ladies and gentleman, Barrichello knew EXACTLY what he was getting into - problem is that he is not at the Schumi level of ability.

What does this have to do with Seb? Well, Vettel is learning from Schumi and WILL likely get it right - just right now ........ - well you know what training is like!

[SGWilko]

Given that Barrichello races on the verge of being OUT of control as his attack on Alonso's Ferrari showed - Schumi HAS to be relived he came away from Hungary all safe and sound!

This explains why Ruby was so shaken and hysterical afterwards - he probably barely held it together in close company with his nemesis.

Further - Barrichello is an experienced codger, yes? Then he knew the rule on track is once a driver makes a move, a second move is not permitted.

Hence, dear old Pedi-Chanello ought to have used his mind and instead of excercising the considerable chip on his shoulder where Schumi is concerned, simply moved to the left and taken the line into the corner.

Oh yes, ladies and gentleman, Barrichello knew EXACTLY what he was getting into - problem is that he is not at the Schumi level of ability.

What does this have to do with Seb? Well, Vettel is learning from Schumi and WILL likely get it right - just right now ........ - well you know what training is like!

You lost me after Given...... :rolleyes:

[Retro Formula 1]

You lost me after Given...... :rolleyes:

Indeed. I think he's referring to a different series with different drivers. When he starts making up names and identities for the current stock, it get's really quite obscure :confused:

[Bagwan]

This is what I pointed out a couple of days ago. I don't think it can completely excuse Seb as he is in charge of the car and it's not as if the flexible wing failed but I think it was a contributing factor in the accident.

The flexible wing and floor has given Red Bull a fantastic advantage this season but there is a problem when they act in an unexpected manner a bit like ground effects.

STD is correct though and neither Webber or Vettel would consider giving them up for an instant. They would be on par with the McLaren then and eaten for lunch by Lewis :D

I think that the amount of flex was reduced at the GP and will be further reduced at the next one to bring them more in line with the regulations and comply with new testing. Perhaps this problem may then disappear.

So then , is this quirk the reason that Vettel is starting to get a reputation for not being able to pass , needing pole to win ?
Is this why Webber hit Heikki and went sailing ?

So , then , was this why Webber was so sad to see his new one go to Vettel back a few races ?
Does this point directly to where it's flexing ? Is it flexing at the attachment point , where it failed for Seb first time out ?

[ShiftingGears]

would he have though? that's not even conjecture

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBxNVoMXHz4

I believe so. Look how close they were when Button started braking. If Vettel was confident that he wasn't going to rear end that McLaren, he wouldn'tve tried to pull out so aggressively.

Racing incident. Sometimes you're the bug, other times you're the windscreen.

One thing though(which I had not seen until now), that wing movement is HUGE!

[Bagwan]

Given that Barrichello races on the verge of being OUT of control as his attack on Alonso's Ferrari showed - Schumi HAS to be relived he came away from Hungary all safe and sound!

This explains why Ruby was so shaken and hysterical afterwards - he probably barely held it together in close company with his nemesis.

Further - Barrichello is an experienced codger, yes? Then he knew the rule on track is once a driver makes a move, a second move is not permitted.

Hence, dear old Pedi-Chanello ought to have used his mind and instead of excercising the considerable chip on his shoulder where Schumi is concerned, simply moved to the left and taken the line into the corner.

Oh yes, ladies and gentleman, Barrichello knew EXACTLY what he was getting into - problem is that he is not at the Schumi level of ability.

What does this have to do with Seb? Well, Vettel is learning from Schumi and WILL likely get it right - just right now ........ - well you know what training is like!

May I point out that Rubinho (sorry for the nick-name , but you can look it up . It's legit)(And , by the way , can you direct me to the official nick-naming organization ?) made the move , didn't hit the wall or Michael , and collected it up very nicely out of the pit lane exit , to relieve Mike of the position ?

I completely agree with you in regards to the fact that Michael gave him enough room to complete his move , evidenced by the fact that he accomplished it , but , to rubbish Rubens and his driving is rather silly , isn't it , given he threaded the needle here ?

Trash him all you want for whining about it afterwards , but try to recognize good driving when you see it .
I'm sure it scared the hell out of both of them , but Rubens was the one that let it show .

[SGWilko]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBxNVoMXHz4

I believe so. Look how close they were when Button started braking. If Vettel was confident that he wasn't going to rear end that McLaren, he wouldn'tve tried to pull out so aggressively.

Racing incident. Sometimes you're the bug, other times you're the windscreen.

One thing though(which I had not seen until now), that wing movement is HUGE!

I believe he missed his braking point by concentrating on button too much. That's why I think it was avoidable.

[Retro Formula 1]

So then , is this quirk the reason that Vettel is starting to get a reputation for not being able to pass , needing pole to win ?
Is this why Webber hit Heikki and went sailing ?

So , then , was this why Webber was so sad to see his new one go to Vettel back a few races ?
Does this point directly to where it's flexing ? Is it flexing at the attachment point , where it failed for Seb first time out ?

The wing doesn't flex on the plates so they are stiff and pass regulations so it must be further back.

The nose is attached by 4 fixings to the chassis and floor. I suspect it's at this point that flex is induced caused by load from the fins.

I have no information whatsoever but it would strike me that introducing an element of flex at the bottom of the assembly allowing the nose to drop would give the desired ground effect. Only problem is that if you have a rapid change of direction, the bottom of the assembly would want to also flex and could give the nose a inclined profile instead of a straight (albeit lowered) profile.

This is what we saw with Sebastian in the video footage.

Again, I stress that this is just a theory and most likely has zero truth but I am just speculating.

[555-04Q2]

Rubens accident was not avoidable because the prevailing conditions of the track caught him and most of the rest of the field out on that lap, at that corner.



No, because the penalty was causing an avoidable accident.

Vettel was the only driver who went off unaided at that corner on lap 16, because of his violent direction change which induced a tank slapper he could not control. He caused the accident which was avoidable.

These are professional racers. They should adapt to the conditions. Clouds up ahead, spots of rain on my visor = slow down dumba$$ or you will go off.

And how was Vettel able to predict that his car would snap the way it did, just as the other drivers "couldn't" predict that the track was slippery up ahead? The fact that all drivers have a steering wheel in their hands makes all accidents (this kills me every time I see it) "avoidable accidents".

[SGWilko]

These are professional racers. They should adapt to the conditions. Clouds up ahead, spots of rain on my visor = slow down dumba$$ or you will go off.

You should consider mentoring all the drivers - that's sound advice that I reckon they'd all appreciate.... ;)


And how was Vettel able to predict that his car would snap the way it did, just as the other drivers "couldn't" predict that the track was slippery up ahead? The fact that all drivers have a steering wheel in their hands makes all accidents (this kills me every time I see it) "avoidable accidents".

Sharp, sudden and violent change in direction, I guess, would give rise to some amount of de-stabiliation. I'm a numpty, and even I could work that one out......

[Zico]

Sharp, sudden and violent change in direction, I guess, would give rise to some amount of de-stabiliation. I'm a numpty, and even I could work that one out......

Yep, well in my non-expert opinion at least, downforce itself obviously gives non-linear speed relative grip levels but when you add flexable wings to the equation that give even more inconsistant downforce levels in dirty air/slipstreams, your front end grip and braking is bound to be affected adversely...

Im struggling to remember how many good RB overtaking moves have we witnessed from further down the grid at the medium high speed corners they usually excel in? ... and under braking?

[markabilly]

Wow , I hadn't paid much attention to that on-board before .
That really is a scary amount of movement , and easily explains why he lost it .
As he passes out into the open air , he has just come from having his wing pressed down on the other side of button .
The radical change in direction wasn't what got him , it seems .
It looks more like the right side of his wing slamming downwards as he broke the slipstream unsettled the other side of the car at the same time as the extra drag was added .

This is a good reason why wings are mandated to be stiff .
and it appears that SV was using the f-duct until the last possible moment as well.
This f-duct usuage in this manner may have further unsettled things.

[Valve Bounce]

Have a look at the amount of front wing flex going on when he pulls across Jensons slipstream.. http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xem8h4_belgium2010-vettel-crashes-into-but_auto

Well done, amigo!! does that indicate a sudden loss of traction on one front wheel? I must say I never saw that before; thanks!! I played that several times and it looks like the wing twisted down on one side and twisted up on the other side. :eek:

[Zico]

Well done, amigo!! does that indicate a sudden loss of traction on one front wheel? I must say I never saw that before; thanks!! I played that several times and it looks like the wing twisted down on one side and twisted up on the other side. :eek:

The credit for the observation should go to SG_Wilko, he mentioned it on the flexable wings thread but it seems no-one bothered to look at it.

[SGWilko]

The credit for the observation should go to SG_Wilko.

:angel: :D

[ioan]

Rubens accident was not avoidable because the prevailing conditions of the track caught him and most of the rest of the field out on that lap, at that corner.

That's a huge stretch of reality. The accident was avoidable all that was needed was Rubens braking a couple meters earlier, after all he knew that the track was damp.

[ioan]

I believe he missed his braking point by concentrating on button too much. That's why I think it was avoidable.

Same as Rubens then.

[SGWilko]

Same as Rubens then.

Wow, was Rubens behind Button too?

[SGWilko]

That's a huge stretch of reality. The accident was avoidable all that was needed was Rubens braking a couple meters earlier, after all he knew that the track was damp.

On that lap, almost the entire field did the same as Rubens, only Alonso was unfortunate enough to be in the way....

[ArrowsFA1]

On that lap, almost the entire field did the same as Rubens...
...and that was on the first lap when none of the drivers had encountered those conditions under racing conditions. Not an excuse that applied to the Vettel/Button incident...

[SGWilko]

...and that was on the first lap when none of the drivers had encountered those conditions under racing conditions. Not an excuse that applied to the Vettel/Button incident...

Amen! :)

[ioan]

...and that was on the first lap when none of the drivers had encountered those conditions under racing conditions.

Really?!
They had rain for several corners before the last corner still they all tried to brake late in order to overtake cars in front of them, and this means it was avoidable accident in both cases.

IMO both cases are the same, driver brakes to late and crashes into opponent.

[SGWilko]

Really?!
They had rain for several corners before the last corner still they all tried to brake late in order to overtake cars in front of them, and this means it was avoidable accident in both cases.

IMO both cases are the same, driver brakes to late and crashes into opponent.

Not so I am afraid.

Lewis was in the lead, had no-one to overtake, and he went off just as all the others did.