Donkey of the race - Belgian GP

[gm99]

Vettel - he's really doing a great job of totally f***ing up his title chances.

[Ranger]

Vettel. Oops. :s hock:

[F1boat]

Little bitch!

[ioan]

Little bitch!

Very very civilized! :rolleyes:
What happened to the rules about rude language usage on the forum?

[F1boat]

I apologize if I have insulted someone but Vettel took off my fave driver. I think that he is very spoiled and dangerous to the life and health of his colleagues.
Do you like it better now? :D

[F1boat]

And now he caused collision with Liuzzi. Black flag the guy before he kills someone...

[ioan]

I apologize if I have insulted someone but Vettel took off my fave driver. I think that he is very spoiled and dangerous to the life and health of his colleagues.
Do you like it better now? :D

Don't bother I already knew that you will use swear words, it's how you express yourself. :down:

[gm99]

Nope, that was entirely Liuzzi's fault...

[ioan]

And now he caused collision with Liuzzi. Black flag the guy before he kills someone...

Liuzzi turned into him, so you are completely in the wrong.

And Button just declared that he is convinced that it was just an accident what happened between him and Vettel.
Which begs the question, why are drivers penalized every time two cars touch nowadays?!

[F1boat]

Don't bother I already knew that you will use swear words, it's how you express yourself. :down:

You are right. I won't bother. I'll welcome you to my ignore list and wait till you are banned again.

[Blancvino]

Vettel, he is letting his frustrations get the best of him. In my view, he is not the talent he has been made out to be.

[F1boat]

Vettel, he is letting his frustrations get the best of him. In my view, he is not the talent he has been made out to be.

He is very talented, but very immature. I am still very sad for Jenson. He might have just lost the chance to defend his WDC and it is entirely not his fault.

[ioan]

You are right. I won't bother. I'll welcome you to my ignore list and wait till you are banned again.

Be my guest.

[wedge]

Looked like Button moved in the braking zone. I need to see replay again whether Vettel lost it before Button veered left

[truefan72]

probably vettel as well

[Hawkmoon]

No big donkeys today but Vettel, Barrichello and Alonso get little donkeys for getting it wrong one way or another.

[VkmSpouge]

Sebastian Vettel for the second time this season he's crashed into a championship rival.

[ioan]

I'll say Alonso, to spice up the things a bit!
He did put so much effort into explaining yesterday how his car was set up with more wing for the wet conditions and when it rained he went on to spun into the barriers. :D

[SGWilko]

Vettel, Barrichello and Alonso get little donkeys for getting it wrong one way or another.

+1 :up:

[F1boat]

I'd say it again - vettel.

[ioan]

Sebastian Vettel for the second time this season he's crashed into a championship rival.

Many champions did the same in the past! This must be a good omen in the end! ;)

[ioan]

No big donkeys today but Vettel, Barrichello and Alonso get little donkeys for getting it wrong one way or another.

Fully agree!

[UltimateDanGTR]

Vettel-I seriously question his race craft again after today, silly mistake to take button out, reminded me so much of turkey, but to be fair I cant blame him for the liuzzi incident.

Alonso-wrong strategy and ending up spinning off.

mention to Barrichello also-got it more wrong than anyone else at the end of lap 1, lucky not to take alonso with him out of the race

[shurik]

Vettel and Alonso

[truefan72]

No big donkeys today but Vettel, Barrichello and Alonso get little donkeys for getting it wrong one way or another.

man how could I forget Rubens!

yeah, he goes tops on my list followed by Vettel and funny enough, the stewards for that unnecessary drive trough penalty

[Ent]

Vettel for sure, with Barrichello a close second. Vettel deserved the drive through for causing an avoidable accident. Button did everything right, keeping his line on the inside of the corner and would not have expected to be slammed into by any competent driver.

[steveaki13]

No massive Donkies as said above.

Alonso for a rather tepid end to his race and Rubens for getting it completly wrong into Bus Stop Chicane on lap 1.

[Garry Walker]

Many champions did the same in the past! This must be a good omen in the end! ;)

At the moment Vettel is not worth the left testicle of any past WDCs.


donkeys - Alonso and Vettel, in that order. I hope Alonso`s wet setup gamble paid off :rotflmao:

[Triumph]

Vettel and Alonso.

[ioan]

At the moment Vettel is not worth the left testicle of any past WDCs.

Don't be so sure. There are at least 2 in recent history who aren't a match for Vettel's driver talent.

[Ent]

Don't be so sure. There are at least 2 in recent history who aren't a match for Vettel's driver talent.

At the moment, Vettel isn't much of a match for Vettel's driver talent. A bit like early Hamilton - awesome speed but lacking a bit in control and experience to do what is right in the right situation. He should learn a lot from this year and, with another year or two under his belt, he should be in about the same place as Hamilton, with the talent and the experience to convert that into results. For the moment though, he'll probably pick up a few more donkeys before he gets there.

[ioan]

At the moment, Vettel isn't much of a match for Vettel's driver talent. A bit like early Hamilton - awesome speed but lacking a bit in control and experience to do what is right in the right situation. He should learn a lot from this year and, with another year or two under his belt, he should be in about the same place as Hamilton, with the talent and the experience to convert that into results. For the moment though, he'll probably pick up a few more donkeys before he gets there.

No one is perfect.

[i_max2k2]

Barrichelo, Vettel & Alonso.

[veeten]

No one is perfect.

but no one is asking for that, just be a little more consistant with his racecraft, that's all.

as the old saw goes, "Once is a fluke, twice is coincidence, three times is a trend", and folks, both in the paddock and in the booths, are hoping that he 'gets it' before that possible third time arises. Marko, Berger, and Red Bull don't need to be making public apologies and explanations a continual part of race weekend.

[chuck34]

Don't be so sure. There are at least 2 in recent history who aren't a match for Vettel's driver talent.

[Lurk mode off]

A driver with "massive talent" wouldn't spin while trying to make a pass, no matter the conditions.

[/Lurk mode on]

[Jag_Warrior]

I like the kid, but Vettel really showed a lot of immaturity today. He gets my donkey vote.

[Anderton]

I'd have to say Vettel, with Alonso coming a close second!

[rohanweb]

Vettel of cause => idiot needs driving lesons on at which spot to touch the brake !the guy dont have control of the car at this level of sport.

honourable mention to twice world champion Dr.Eyebrow Alonslow..for ending it all at the barriers, he is definitely losing supporters very fast.

[N. Jones]

Damn, wrong thread! SORRY!

Donkey, definitely Vettel. I don't think he has the race-craft to be champion.

[Shifter]

Vettel. Yes, it was a mistake on his part, but ironically when he got the run on Button through Blaunchimont I turned to my dad and said 'here comes a crash'.

[ioan]

[Lurk mode off]

A driver with "massive talent" wouldn't spin while trying to make a pass, no matter the conditions.

[/Lurk mode on]

Says who?!

[Sleeper]

Vettel, his race craft leaves a lot to be desired.

[Valve Bounce]

Looked like Button moved in the braking zone. I need to see replay again whether Vettel lost it before Button veered left

It was Bunsen's fault - he should have moved over and let Vettel past. :rolleyes:

[wedge]

It was Bunsen's fault - he should have moved over and let Vettel past. :rolleyes:

There's a silly gentleman's agreement and Bunsen complained about Koby moving in the braking zone in Brazil last year. DC was a moaner of this in his last couple of years of F1 and kept schtum on his mate.

[CNR]

Vettel = Red Baron

[Valve Bounce]

There's a silly gentleman's agreement and Bunsen complained about Koby moving in the braking zone in Brazil last year. DC was a moaner of this in his last couple of years of F1 and kept schtum on his mate.

Maybe we could lay the blame on Smedley because he didn't:Smedley to Bunsen - the car behind you is faster; do you understand? the car behind you is faster" :p : :D :rotflmao:

[Ari]

Vettel.

Will be WDC someday, not this year though. Has a loooooooooong way to go imo.

[Big Ben]

It was Bunsen's fault - he should have moved over and let Vettel past. :rolleyes:

I agree with you. Everyone knows he's the easiest guy to pass... what was he doing?

[ShiftingGears]

I agree with you. Everyone knows he's the easiest guy to pass... what was he doing?

hahaha

[truefan72]

At the moment, Vettel isn't much of a match for Vettel's driver talent. A bit like early Hamilton - awesome speed but lacking a bit in control and experience to do what is right in the right situation. He should learn a lot from this year and, with another year or two under his belt, he should be in about the same place as Hamilton, with the talent and the experience to convert that into results. For the moment though, he'll probably pick up a few more donkeys before he gets there.

tbh if ron dennis did not blow the pitstop in China, All this talk of a young hamilton not knowing how to reign in his talent would be mute. I don't recall him crashing into anyone in his rookie year and in-fact his only on the track crash was technicality in the pits in Canada 2008.

One can argue that Vettel is driving the best car on the grid and seemingly getting the job done in placing his car on pole more than anyone else. But yet fails to deliver. I think he is an immense talent with a huge flaw of impatience, petulance and a rather rough grasp of overtaking competitive cars. One hopes that sooner rather than later he will master these flaws. For right now these are some very expensive lessons he and RBR are learning.

I doubt Horner has anything constructive to say or direct to Vettel and to me this is one of the biggest problems with the team. CH being replaced by someone better would help Vettel.

[Warriwa]

Vettel. Yes, it was a mistake on his part, but ironically when he got the run on Button through Blaunchimont I turned to my dad and said 'here comes a crash'.
You and I spoke the same words at the same time. Kettle gets donkey for me. He has gone off the boil. Although I don't think a penalty was required.

[Saint Devote]

I dont think there was any donkey at Spa - the Vettel / Button collision was a racing accident.

[chuck34]

Says who?!

Ok if you think spinning in the braking zone while trying to make a pass regardless of conditions constitutes "massive driver talent", then your definition is different than mine. Mind you, I'm not saying the guy doesn't have any talent.

[N4D13]

I'll say Alonso, to spice up the things a bit!
He did put so much effort into explaining yesterday how his car was set up with more wing for the wet conditions and when it rained he went on to spun into the barriers. :D
Really? I didn't actually hear him saying anything about it excepting when he was asked in the grid by a La Sexta reporter.

Vettel gets the first prize for me. Barrichello and Alonso come after, for obvious reasons. To add insult to injury, Rubens crashed out of his 300th race.

[pallone col bracciale]

Rubens.

Although I would replace the phrase 'Donkey' with something less family friendly.

[ioan]

Ok if you think spinning in the braking zone while trying to make a pass regardless of conditions constitutes "massive driver talent", then your definition is different than mine. Mind you, I'm not saying the guy doesn't have any talent.

You obviously never made a mistake.
We've got another perfect guy around here he calls himself a saint, you may ask him to keep him company. :p

[ioan]

One clear driver for me is Vettel. I lost count of how many mistakes he made in the race...

One. I wonder how did you manage to lose count on that one. ;)

[pino]

You obviously never made a mistake.
We've got another perfect guy around here he calls himself a saint, you may ask him to keep him company. :p

Quit personal comments now !

[chuck34]

You obviously never made a mistake.
We've got another perfect guy around here he calls himself a saint, you may ask him to keep him company. :p

I never said I was perfect. Far, far, far from it. But I'm also not claiming to have "massive talent" after making an obviously bad mistake like Vettle made at Spa this weekend. Someone with "massive talent" would have seen the changing conditions and NOT made so many violent moves.

[ioan]

I never said I was perfect. Far, far, far from it. But I'm also not claiming to have "massive talent" after making an obviously bad mistake like Vettle made at Spa this weekend. Someone with "massive talent" would have seen the changing conditions and NOT made so many violent moves.

The guy has huge amounts of talent, and saying he doesn't means that you are simply overlooking his achievements, like the youngest ever F1 race winner, in a wet race driving for Red Bulls 2nd hand team!

I won't even mention the impressive qualifying laps he has put together up to now.

And to conclude any other driver might have been caught up by the greasy track yesterday, any of them.

[Anubis]

I won't even mention the impressive qualifying laps he has put together up to now.
.

Impressive qualifying but less impressive conversion to results. He seems to be prone to mistakes when under pressure.

[ioan]

Impressive qualifying but less impressive conversion to results. He seems to be prone to mistakes when under pressure.

Ayrton Senna also had a less than stellar poles to wins conversion ratio! ;)

As I said no one is perfect.

[chuck34]

The guy has huge amounts of talent, and saying he doesn't means that you are simply overlooking his achievements, like the youngest ever F1 race winner, in a wet race driving for Red Bulls 2nd hand team!

I never said he didn't have talent, quite the opposite in fact. Look back at what I did say.

And yes his win for Torro Roso in the wet was impressive. So it makes his mistake at Spa all the more interesting. He's either regressing in his race-craft, has some serious cases of "red mist", letting the fact that his team-mate has been outperforming him of late get to him, or some combination of all of them.


I won't even mention the impressive qualifying laps he has put together up to now.

Good because if you did then we'd all have to point out how he has mostly failed to capitalize on those impressive qualifying laps in the race. Further proving the point that his race-craft needs work, to say the least.


And to conclude any other driver might have been caught up by the greasy track yesterday, any of them.

But none of them were caught up quite as spectacularly. Alonso and Rubens were close, or probably even on-par.

[Valve Bounce]

To win, or even score points, a driver must first finish the race. This is something Vettel has to learn.

[SGWilko]

Ayrton Senna also had a less than stellar poles to wins conversion ratio! ;)

As I said no one is perfect.

I would like to point out that Ayrton was not always in the best car, but he certainly always got the best out of it.

'91, '93, '94 and the season(s) he spent at Lotus he did not have the best on the grid.......

[BDunnell]

No one is perfect.

In which case, your rather childish decision to no longer support Ferrari ought to be reassessed. It is precisely the case that metronomic perfection is impossible.

[wedge]

Maybe we could lay the blame on Smedley because he didn't:Smedley to Bunsen - the car behind you is faster; do you understand? the car behind you is faster" :p : :D :rotflmao:

By that logic Schumi did no wrong to Hakkinen at the Macau GP which you enjoy bringing up and lynching the 'chopper'.

[SGWilko]

To win, or even score points, a driver must first finish the race. This is something Vettel has to learn.

Looks like his new moniker - the crash kid - might stick!

[Saint Devote]

Looks like his new moniker - the crash kid - might stick!

At Red Bull none of the drivers are "attended to". They make their own way and this is very much in line with the ideology of Helmut Marko. When he was part of the same "gang" as Rindt in the early days, their driving antics were wild.

It was their credo that when ever one of them got into difficulties the person did not ask for help, because it was viewed as weakness and they wanted to see how he coped.

This is an intrinsic part of the reason why Torro Rosso and the Red Bull driver program appears to be so ruthless.

Vettel is not being "comforted" or supported in the same way that is done at other teams.

Sebastian Vettel is going through a tough period, but he has a tough supporter in the form of Marko and another tough as nails confidente and supporter in Bernie Ecclestone.

I am convinced that they are attracted to Seb Vet because he is so like late world champion.

Vettel will come through this period - and lets leave the silly monikers where they belong: with the idiot media - as a tougher driver with the rock solid knowledge that he did not ask for and did not get help. He did it himself.

He is the future of Red Bull Racing and he knows that he is well supported that way. He is mature way beyond his years and does not have a daddy at his side or any other form of security blanket.

Just as Schumi learnt from a tender age how to cope mentally, Sebastian in my view is even tougher at this age.

Circumstances will ultimately turn around and this season is far from over.

Yes, Vettel does get "pissed off" but thats because he wants to win and has to force a smile when he is anything but number 1 on the grid or at the end of the race. Winning for him IS the only thing and in a Senna way I think he is the only driver who means it in the same way in f1.

I am convinced that he is the quickest and most able driver over a qualifying lap - that day at Suzuka 2009 was definitely the most amazing qualifying session since the Schumacher Ferrari days.

He has demonstrated his ability to win in all conditions and this period of apparent brain fade is just that.

And when it is over - and it could be that at the track where he won his first grand prix in the Torro Rosso [!] - Monza.

Georgio Ascanelli was his RE. This is the man that has also engineered for Senna - and incidentally was one of the people on occassion that had to stop Senna from punchiing somebody out [marshall or fellow driver] - and he is as impressed by Vettel.

So lets relax and not rubbish Vettel. Give him the room and time he needs. For crying out loud the man is only 23!!!!!

[woody2goody]

Vettel, obviously.

However Alonso had a pretty shoddy weekend as well, despite the fact he couldn't do anything about being hit by Rubinho.

Pedro gets a miniature ass for spoiling such a bloody good drive by going off at the end :(

[Warriwa]

At Red Bull none of the drivers are "attended to". They make their own way and this is very much in line with the ideology of Helmut Marko. When he was part of the same "gang" as Rindt in the early days, their driving antics were wild.

It was their credo that when ever one of them got into difficulties the person did not ask for help, because it was viewed as weakness and they wanted to see how he coped.

This is an intrinsic part of the reason why Torro Rosso and the Red Bull driver program appears to be so ruthless.

Vettel is not being "comforted" or supported in the same way that is done at other teams.

Sebastian Vettel is going through a tough period, but he has a tough supporter in the form of Marko and another tough as nails confidente and supporter in Bernie Ecclestone.

I am convinced that they are attracted to Seb Vet because he is so like late world champion.

Vettel will come through this period - and lets leave the silly monikers where they belong: with the idiot media - as a tougher driver with the rock solid knowledge that he did not ask for and did not get help. He did it himself.

He is the future of Red Bull Racing and he knows that he is well supported that way. He is mature way beyond his years and does not have a daddy at his side or any other form of security blanket.

Just as Schumi learnt from a tender age how to cope mentally, Sebastian in my view is even tougher at this age.

Circumstances will ultimately turn around and this season is far from over.

Yes, Vettel does get "pissed off" but thats because he wants to win and has to force a smile when he is anything but number 1 on the grid or at the end of the race. Winning for him IS the only thing and in a Senna way I think he is the only driver who means it in the same way in f1.

I am convinced that he is the quickest and most able driver over a qualifying lap - that day at Suzuka 2009 was definitely the most amazing qualifying session since the Schumacher Ferrari days.

He has demonstrated his ability to win in all conditions and this period of apparent brain fade is just that.

And when it is over - and it could be that at the track where he won his first grand prix in the Torro Rosso [!] - Monza.

Georgio Ascanelli was his RE. This is the man that has also engineered for Senna - and incidentally was one of the people on occassion that had to stop Senna from punchiing somebody out [marshall or fellow driver] - and he is as impressed by Vettel.

So lets relax and not rubbish Vettel. Give him the room and time he needs. For crying out loud the man is only 23!!!!!
Does your new found respect for Vettel originate from your immense dislike of Hamilton? Does this mean you will always support whoever can challenge Hamilton regardless of circumstances?

[SGWilko]

At Red Bull none of the drivers are "attended to". They make their own way

Hmmmm, I get the impression from comments from the team this year that, actually, Vettel is very much mollycoddled, whereas Mark is left to get on with.

Luckily for Mark, he has not only the experience, but also the mental strength to shrug this off and use this to his advantage by channeling the frustration to his benefit.

Vettel will deffo NOT like the new Crash Kid label, and that will stick like poop to a sheet.

Vettel needs a miracle to take the title this year. Red Bull need a title this year - they NEED to back Mark.

[markabilly]

You people who have never seriously raced, and even worse, never raced in wet conditions, you are sitting here as arm chair quarterbacks trying to micromanage what a driver should do and should not do, as though seconds were minutes in conditions about which you are without a clue.

The conditions were wet. PERIOD.
Traction can come and go faster than your little fingers can type, and faster than even the best of the racers can anticipate or react. Even with the best, a successful race in the rain is more a question of luck rather than skill.
And when traction disappears, the car will go where it wants.

And this where the FIA dumbutts failed at Spa a few years ago, with the Lewis stupid penalty, and this is where they failed at Spa again this year.

Many at this year's Spa would qualify as a driver of the race, but I saw none who would qualify as donkeys. NOT ONE. :rolleyes:

[SGWilko]

You people who have never seriously raced, and even worse, never raced in wet conditions, you are sitting here as arm chair quarterbacks trying to micromanage what a driver should do and should not do, as though seconds were minutes in conditions about which you are without a clue.

The conditions were wet. PERIOD.

I think you are oversimplyfying things here fella.

The track was dry, then damp, then greasy, then wet and at one point we had some spray. And in between it dried out again.

However, I have noted that you alone are the authority on who was and who was not capable at Spa.

[SGWilko]

One thing that I don't understand from Spa, is the insistence by the Red Bull team on running Seb on full wets, even after he had destroyed one set.

To me, Seb needs to start telling the team what he wants, not what they think he needs, cos it aint working just now.

[markabilly]

I think you are oversimplyfying things here fella.

The track was dry, then damp, then greasy, then wet and at one point we had some spray. And in between it dried out again.

However, I have noted that you alone are the authority on who was and who was not capable at Spa.
Even worse as often tires did not match the conditions and drivers had no idea what to expect, when on this very long circuit, on making just one lap, the track is dry, sunny, cloudy, (all of which effect traction and the heat in the tires), as well as damp, greasy, wet and had some spray.

See here, you can watch da TV all you want, watch slow mo all you want, but that is not the real deal. Back in the day, my visibility of what to expect was much much better because there was not much blocking the view. Indeed not much different from that of the high mounted in-car camera view that you so typically see today.

And unlike today, I was not buried in the car, with this long flat nose, or as in some cases now, with the front body work having those bumps for front wheel attachments to the body, and various other things sticking up---and even back then, it was very difficult to see actual track conditions such as oil dropped by someone. Add in misting rain or full rain, and it became mostly guess work.

Jump forward to today's F1 car.

What little I have seen from the actual view of the driver shows very limited visibility to the point where I think the driver is relying too much on feel and intuition as to driving through the actual corners. Indeed in many corners, I doubt the driver can even see the actual apex of the corner. As to actually seeing the condition of the track surface, it must be near impossible in many corners and even on straights.

And why does everyone want rain at races? because it adds this uncertainity and excitment that is otherwise lacking from F1

So as you acknowledge that I am the "alone [are the] authority on who was and who was not capable" at Spa, I say judge not any of them in negative terms, when you have no clue as to what it was like be one of the drivers at Spa.

I saw no donkeys among the drivers, not one.

[ioan]

I think you are oversimplyfying things here fella.

Best things in life are the simple things! ;)
So why complicate everything? :p

[jens]

What an unbelievable season Vettel is having. I mean it's like living through all your life experiences in one year. Wonder if he is capable of learning from them too like Hamilton has made through a major transformation in the last two seasons.

Everything that is possible has either gone wrong or has he done wrong. At least he can't be called "softy" racer like he was last year - he actually tries too hard. His racecraft is quite sloppy though - he wants much, but hasn't got the skills to handle a car properly in wheel-to-wheel battles. Actually whenever I watch him racing, there is always a feeling that an accident is around the corner. As there is a saying - at least someone has to entertain the public. Now it's his turn to fulfill that role in F1.

[Shifter]

It's true, if the simulators have gotten the viewpoint even close, the drivers can't see much at all. It's probably why one wonders why in the wet drivers put the wheels on the slippery painted line at the track edge in the wet and then have the inevitable spin entering a corner. I cannot drive with the driver view at all.

I disagree with the penalty but I do kind of understand the thought process as I just felt the collision coming from a mile away...when Seb got the run on Button I thought there was a high probability of a crunch, because of the conditions and because of Vettel's desperation...and that's exactly what happened, and with major championship implications. However it's true the precedent is no penalty for this sort of contact.

[Saint Devote]

When did Vettel declare that he was "desparate"? This has become a commonly used word in the press especially with the idiot German press now climbiing onto the bash Vettel bandwagon - and it is all nonsense.

It was a racing accident and at worst was a misjudgement - most probably misfortune.

Motor racing is like war - the best laid plans go wrong.

I wonder what all these finger pointers will say if Vettel wins the next three pole positions and wins several grands prix in the last SIX races. Hopefully it will shut them up - but fat chance - people like these always move the goal posts.