Richards hits out at F1 newcomers

[CNR]

http://www.racers-republic.com/f1/news/1959/richards-hits-out-at-f1-newcomers


Prodrive boss David Richards has hit out at the three teams that joined the F1 grid this season, insisting that they have harmed the chances that other potential entrants have of racing the funds needed to compete in the sport.



it is Aholes like David Richards getting a spot on the grid then not turning up because they could not use custom cars

the other teams built cars in about the same time that he had

damage the sport.

what did prodrive DO ?

[edv]

The only way I would want Richards in F1 would be to compete against the potential new Villeneuve team...and to lose miserably at it.

I still blame him for ruining BAR.

Fousto will love this thread LOL!

[Saint Devote]

http://www.racers-republic.com/f1/news/1959/richards-hits-out-at-f1-newcomers




it is Aholes like David Richards getting a spot on the grid then not turning up because they could not use custom cars

the other teams built cars in about the same time that he had

damage the sport.

what did prodrive DO ?

First of all Richards is a successful racing manager unlike those who are runnng the new teams - he actually understands what it takes and has done it. Including many professional teams that have used their services covertly.

And it was the FIA that stopped him from runing the Mclaren "b" team - the Woking people would bever give cars to someone that not competent.

At the time Richards was correct about what would happen to new teams iin f1. And the new teams have not at all made a positive contribution.

Exactly what is the point of being a new team these days? Since Bahrain the gap between the quickest driver in f1, Vettel and the new teams has INCREASED.

Ay Sakhir it was between 5 and 9 seconds and at Hungaroring it was 6 and 9 seconds.

Spending millions to just be part of the f1 show? Whats the point? Do they really believe that in 3 years or even 5 years they are going to win as Gascoyne proclaims? :rotflmao:

The only reason there are new teams is because they are the result of the FOTA-FIA war and Mosley beeded to have a grid just in case.

They are an error but one that now exists in the rules and this experiment is continuing.

It should be ended. The days are gone when a new team on its own can become a legitimate competitor.

Will there ever be new teams that are not also rans? Not if they independent racing teams. It will require a partnership with an auto manufacturer at least. And those days are probably gone for some time.

[Saint Devote]

The only way I would want Richards in F1 would be to compete against the potential new Villeneuve team...and to lose miserably at it.

I still blame him for ruining BAR.

Fousto will love this thread LOL!

The ruination of BAR was the bear hug that Honda gave it - an f1 team cannot be run along the lines that Japan see fit - committee and faxes.

In the end Honda understood and employed Ross Brawn but systemic forces defeated that one in no small measure to the benefit if Brawn.

[DazzlaF1]

I sense sour grapes from Richards, if he thinks that the newbies have damaged F1's reputation, then he needs help.

The 3 of them have all proved actually that setting up a new team on limited budgets and a limited timescale AND becoming competitive is a lot tougher than first thought, sure Ross Brawn made it look easy last year but lets not forget, he had 2 of the best drivers in his cars, a state of the art facility to work from and a sizeable cash injection from Honda, The 3 newbies have none of those luxuries to play with.

It would have been easier for Richards though had he been allowed to run customer McLaren chassis', hell Lotus managed to get a factory build up a workforce AND design and build an F1 car in HALF the time it managed Richards to put together his failed attempt to run those customer cars.

What can you do about it like, kick them out for being too slow? That would be just plain wrong. Its best to just leave them alone and let them build up a base to eventually be competitive, for pete's sake its only their first year and it just so happens to be a year where the Red Bull RB6 is making everybody else's cars including their own look ordinary.

They deserve credit for even risking to take the plunge in the sport in the first place.

[Saint Devote]

I sense sour grapes from Richards, if he thinks that the newbies have damaged F1's reputation, then he needs help.

The 3 of them have all proved actually that setting up a new team on limited budgets and a limited timescale AND becoming competitive is a lot tougher than first thought, sure Ross Brawn made it look easy last year but lets not forget, he had 2 of the best drivers in his cars, a state of the art facility to work from and a sizeable cash injection from Honda, The 3 newbies have none of those luxuries to play with.

It would have been easier for Richards though had he been allowed to run customer McLaren chassis', hell Lotus managed to get a factory build up a workforce AND design and build an F1 car in HALF the time it managed Richards to put together his failed attempt to run those customer cars.

What can you do about it like, kick them out for being too slow? That would be just plain wrong. Its best to just leave them alone and let them build up a base to eventually be competitive, for pete's sake its only their first year and it just so happens to be a year where the Red Bull RB6 is making everybody else's cars including their own look ordinary.

They deserve credit for even risking to take the plunge in the sport in the first place.

Its not important when a GP2 car would be quicker than a supposed f1 car?

Whether Richards is something of a sourgrapes complaint or not, he is correct and, your reasons for permitting the new teams are the reasons why they are a mistake and remain a mistake.

Yes, they should be thrown out and no new teams should be introduced because they will be no better as is currently constituted.

These mobile chicanes have done nothing positive for f1 and Kovaleinen's error might have cost Webber his life.

Of course Lotus is a vehicle for that podgey loudmouth Gascoyne and the ego of Tony Fernandes.

I wonder just how long Branson's interest is going to last while Nick Wirth experiments.

That f1 permits the HRT is a disgrace. The car is so bad that any driver in the seat will look as bad as the other.

F1 has become a cutting edge technology arena that rivals aerospace and it is a pretense that low-budget racing teams can succeed or belong.

The only new teams that ought to be permitted are those directly linked to international auto manufacturers and ways to accomodate them ought to be found.

The f1 days of independents entering and succeeding as did Williams belong to another era.

And to boost grids in the meantime, third cars or second teams ought to be permitted.

[Roamy]

The only way I would want Richards in F1 would be to compete against the potential new Villeneuve team...and to lose miserably at it.

I still blame him for ruining BAR.

Fousto will love this thread LOL!

Richards is a Prix!! He screwed Bar after they finally got it on a winning track.
He can't raise the money to come to F1 because people know he is a total asshole.
JV, Jock Clear, and Willis finally developed that team into a respectable challenger only to be screwed by Richards trying to design a car for Button instead of just having Button up the game. Brawn screwed the whole team up designing a car for Button and Button even confirmed the rumor. Button uses less aero and relies on smooth mechanical grip and tries to save tires although he can't "hustle" the car like lewis. Button would be very good in Indy Cars. The JV team if approved will quickly surpass the current "New" teams. Brawn has a dilemma as he will have to build a roller car for MS while trying to keep from screwing his faster driver Nico. Prix Richards is like the guy down the street from the Mercedes factory with a "Used Car Lot" claiming all the cars were pre-owned by German Grandmothers!!

[Saint Devote]

Button would be very good in Indy Cars.

Last time I looked Button was the reigning world champion and has the number 1 on his Mclaren.

He won his championship by more points than either Kimi or Lewis.

Unlike the current dominant car drivers made far better use of it then they are and, won his title with a team that had less money that the previous years winner driving Ferrari and Mclaren.

The odds of Jenson ever racing in a loser series such as IndyCar are even less than peace in the middle-east.

He may be friends with Jimmie Johnson but has never even expressed interest at even attending a NASCAR race never mind the decrepid openwheel series in the US.

:eek: Indycars ["shudder"]!

[Saint Devote]

Dave Richards is a legend.. :up:
I don't necessarily agree with him on this occasion but he is a leg end IMO. :p

Absolutely.
I am amazed and appalled at the viscious attacks that people on this forum have made on Richards. A man that is highly respected and regarded in all the series in European and Japanese motor racing.

[VkmSpouge]

Don't know what Dave Richards is complaining about really, though I really want to see Prodrive in F1 one day because I'm they will make a fine team, just a pity Richards didn't want to put Prodrive forward this time around.


Exactly what is the point of being a new team these days? Since Bahrain the gap between the quickest driver in f1, Vettel and the new teams has INCREASED.

Ay Sakhir it was between 5 and 9 seconds and at Hungaroring it was 6 and 9 seconds.

Quite an over simplification there of what has actually been happening. The new teams progressively closed the gap on the established teams throughout the first half of the season. The new teams most competitive outing since was at the European Grand Prix in Valencia, where they were quite a lot closer to the front than they had been at Bahrain.
Since then Lotus has ceased development on the T127 and Virgin have also started work on next year's car. So there has been an inevitable drop off in relative performance as the likes of Red Bull and Ferrari in the title hunt continue to plough resources into their 2010 cars.

Also comparing the new teams to Vettel in Bahrain and Hungary is misleading. The gap from almost everyone to Sebastian Vettel increased at Hungary. It didn't matter whether it was Bruno Senna or Fernando Alonso. The Red Bull was brilliantly fast at the Hungaroring. Only Mark Webber was closer to Vettel in Hungary than in Bahrain and that was probably because he made a mistake in Bahrain qualifying.
It is worth noting that comparing Chandhok (handicapped in Bahrain by having zero time in a car put together five minutes before qualifying) to Yamamoto (handicapped in Hungary by being Sakon Yamamoto), Yamamoto was actually closer to Vettel in Hungary than Chandhok was in Bahrain.


They are an error

They're not an error. They're worthwhile additions to the grand prix grid, circulating at roughly Minardi pace, something they should be quite happy with for their first season.

[Saint Devote]

Don't know what Dave Richards is complaining about really, though I really want to see Prodrive in F1 one day because I'm they will make a fine team, just a pity Richards didn't want to put Prodrive forward this time around.



Quite an over simplification there of what has actually been happening. The new teams progressively closed the gap on the established teams throughout the first half of the season. The new teams most competitive outing since was at the European Grand Prix in Valencia, where they were quite a lot closer to the front than they had been at Bahrain.
Since then Lotus has ceased development on the T127 and Virgin have also started work on next year's car. So there has been an inevitable drop off in relative performance as the likes of Red Bull and Ferrari in the title hunt continue to plough resources into their 2010 cars.

Also comparing the new teams to Vettel in Bahrain and Hungary is misleading. The gap from almost everyone to Sebastian Vettel increased at Hungary. It didn't matter whether it was Bruno Senna or Fernando Alonso. The Red Bull was brilliantly fast at the Hungaroring. Only Mark Webber was closer to Vettel in Hungary than in Bahrain and that was probably because he made a mistake in Bahrain qualifying.
It is worth noting that comparing Chandhok (handicapped in Bahrain by having zero time in a car put together five minutes before qualifying) to Yamamoto (handicapped in Hungary by being Sakon Yamamoto), Yamamoto was actually closer to Vettel in Hungary than Chandhok was in Bahrain.



They're not an error. They're worthwhile additions to the grand prix grid, circulating at roughly Minardi pace, something they should be quite happy with for their first season.

The gap was a bit better at Monte Carlo, at Silverstone is was still at 6 to 8 seconds.

During the race even if it is 4 seconds per laps slower - as it was between Webber and Kovaleinen - it is still too much.

And no matter how soon they start on theyr 2011 cars - how many years will ittake them to catch up? The other teams are not going to slow thrir rate of development and the more stable the rules the more entrenched better able and funded teams become.

In today's era there is no room for a Minardi. It is not the 1980's.

Romantic notions of the new teams does not avoid the reality that in today's f1, new teams as they currently are constructed has no place - they should be seeking to associate with auto-manufacturers. There is no other way other than with a powerful technology partner.

[PSfan]

Richards is probably the biggest loser that has every showed his face in an F1 paddock. I still suspect BAR where using there underweight "fuel as ballast" system in 2004 which accounts for his only good results as team manager... His scheme to buy his way onto the f1 podium/race wins as a Mcleran B team just proves his unwillingness to actually work for results... Flav has more integrity then Richards... And how anyone can wish for this guys return to F1 just blows my mind!!!

[BDunnell]

Richards may have a point, as, as much as I'm loathe to admit it, may Saint Devote once one looks past his lack of historical perspective and the absurd idea that they should somehow be 'thrown out'. There have, after all, been far worse teams in F1 than the three current newcomers; despite my reservations I think they're doing their best in the difficult financial circumstances; and people should give such efforts time, a commodity lacking nowadays. But I must say that I also agree with Ecclestone that, as brutal as it may sound, the one of most value to the sport and about whose continued participation I'm most bothered is Lotus because of the name. Hard, but true.

As for Richards' comments, it would be useful if he set them in proper context, for example by giving details of exactly what happened to cause him to cancel/postpone the Prodrive entry. This would surely have been a proper undertaking, and an example to the rest of the grid, had Richards lived up to his word, of cost-cutting in action.

[BDunnell]

I still suspect BAR where using there underweight "fuel as ballast" system in 2004 which accounts for his only good results as team manager...

Evidence? I have no particular affection for David Richards, but struggle to think of illegal Prodrive entries in other formulae, and there's no point making such comments without back-up.

[PSfan]

Evidence? I have no particular affection for David Richards, but struggle to think of illegal Prodrive entries in other formulae, and there's no point making such comments without back-up.

Do I need evidence to suspect something... NO

However, At the time Honda where DQ'd, and banned from the following 2 races the theory was the FIA where clued in on the cars ability to run underweight by a whistle blower ex BAR/Honda Mechanic, Since it was also Honda's first real result of that season when they where investigated, I suspect FIA where clued in prior to the season and waited until they actually had something to take away from the team before acting on the tip. Now I think it makes more sense that the whistle blower was likely let go at the end of the 2004 season then early on in the 2005... so you do the math...

And using Henners88's logic... is there proof they didn't run the car underweight in 2004? :p

[DazzlaF1]

Its not important when a GP2 car would be quicker than a supposed f1 car?

Whether Richards is something of a sourgrapes complaint or not, he is correct and, your reasons for permitting the new teams are the reasons why they are a mistake and remain a mistake.

Yes, they should be thrown out and no new teams should be introduced because they will be no better as is currently constituted.

These mobile chicanes have done nothing positive for f1 and Kovaleinen's error might have cost Webber his life.

Of course Lotus is a vehicle for that podgey loudmouth Gascoyne and the ego of Tony Fernandes.

I wonder just how long Branson's interest is going to last while Nick Wirth experiments.

That f1 permits the HRT is a disgrace. The car is so bad that any driver in the seat will look as bad as the other.

F1 has become a cutting edge technology arena that rivals aerospace and it is a pretense that low-budget racing teams can succeed or belong.

The only new teams that ought to be permitted are those directly linked to international auto manufacturers and ways to accomodate them ought to be found.

The f1 days of independents entering and succeeding as did Williams belong to another era.

And to boost grids in the meantime, third cars or second teams ought to be permitted.

Sorry mate but geez, what a load of boloney.

You seem to forget my good man that Formula One NEEDS the independent teams more than any other. Without them what would we have, a corporate precession which would turn fans away in their droves.

This year for the 3 newbies has been a very steep learning curve but for Virgin and Lotus at least, they will benefit greatly having a season under their belts and coming back stronger using that knowledge to good effect with next year's cars, and in my view, despite the struggles, they have aquitted themselves to Formula 1 extremely well indeed presenting themselves very professionally and with promising futures. The last thing I would label them after just 2 thirds of a season is total embarassments as you seem to be doing, if you want to know what real embarassing teams are, look no further than here.

http://www.f1rejects.com/teams/index.html

Oh and by the way, who has the best car and is leading both world championships at the moment, Red Bull who despite Mateschitz's millions are essentlally a Renault customer team, in other words, AN INDEPENDENT TEAM.

[BDunnell]

You seem to forget my good man that Formula One NEEDS the independent teams more than any other. Without them what would we have, a corporate precession which would turn fans away in their droves.

In what sense is Virgin not a corporate entity? Or Lotus, for that matter?

[BDunnell]

Do I need evidence to suspect something... NO

However, At the time Honda where DQ'd, and banned from the following 2 races the theory was the FIA where clued in on the cars ability to run underweight by a whistle blower ex BAR/Honda Mechanic, Since it was also Honda's first real result of that season when they where investigated, I suspect FIA where clued in prior to the season and waited until they actually had something to take away from the team before acting on the tip. Now I think it makes more sense that the whistle blower was likely let go at the end of the 2004 season then early on in the 2005... so you do the math...

And using Henners88's logic... is there proof they didn't run the car underweight in 2004? :p

All fair points.

[Ari]

Agree with Richards just about 100%.

He has proven time and time again that he knows how to build cars and knows how to run a team.

What he's saying is spot on. How are any new newcomers supposed to raise funds when the current crop have been nothing short of laughable in their efforts. Half way through the season their biggest claim is that all 6 of them finished a race together. Ho hum!

If Bernie would put her personal issues aside a moment then we might have Prodrive in the F1 paddocks. Instead they're back out to play in the dirt while we discuss welcoming a new outfit which may or may not have any experience in the game.

Oh, and to blame Richards for BAR's stuff up? Grow up. That was all the fault of Japan. Ever heard of Japanese lettuce? You leave lettuce on the docks for a week talking about letting it into the country and finally say yes but the lettuce is off and needs to be throw out. Similar cicumstance. The Japs wanted to go no further with BAR so basically buried it then when it was dead enough... felt its pulse, announced there was none and moved on.

[CNR]

Agree with Richards just about 100%.

He has proven time and time again that he knows how to build cars and knows how to run a team.

take off the rose colored glasses
ford performance racing has done so well buys out of glenn seton
http://www.fpr.com.au/team/history/

Ford Performance Racing was established in December 2002 after Prodrive, the world’s largest independent automotive engineering company, bought Glenn Seton Racing.

[Azumanga Davo]

take off the rose colored glasses
ford performance racing has done so well buys out of glenn seton
http://www.fpr.com.au/team/history/

Pfff, as usual, a worthless and pointless link that you think backs up your nonsensical claims.

[Rusty Spanner]

Ok I haven’t read the full article in Motor Sport from which the quotes on the Racer Republic site are taken but looking at only these quotes I agree with Richards.


“They have disillusioned anyone of the idea that you could be at all competitive and it has also prejudiced raising funds,”


“The performance of the new teams has harmed that ability.”

It seems highly likely to me that sponsors would think a lot longer and harder about jumping into F1 with a new team based on the performance of thee current ones.


“Had that not been the case, we might have started to see recriminations and people starting to question what is going on at the back of the grid,”

This is the more interesting quote. For the most part the new teams are not competitive. Now I want to be clear, I think new teams are good for F1 and I think the ones we got for the most part are doing OK considering the circumstances under which they entered. In my mind the blame for this lies with both the FIA and the teams themselves. Here we are in the middle of August and we don’t know who is going to fill the vacant slot on the grid next year. That gives whoever that turns out to be 5-6 months at most from confirmation of entry to get a car on track. That is a huge ask and seems to me almost like setting them up to fail. Until you have an entry it’s difficult to get money from sponsors, so its difficult to begin design etc. You either have to fund the whole lot out of your own pocket and hope or just start very late. It wasn’t a lot better last year for USGP/HRT/Virgin and Lotus. Under these circumstances Virgin and Lotus are doing OK but HRT and USGP are not. USGP didn’t make the grid this year and I’d be surprised if HRT make it next year.

F1 isn’t easy but for half of the new teams to fail to make year 2 puts serious question marks over the ability of the teams selected and the selection process itself.

[I am evil Homer]

In what sense is Virgin not a corporate entity? Or Lotus, for that matter?

Virgin is only corporate in the sawm way Santander or Vodafone is. They're not running the team or making the decisions.

[Hawkmoon]

Does anybody really think HRT are an asset to F1? They are going nowhere and it's rather unlikely they'll be around in 2011, at least in their current guise. In that sense Richards is right.

The criticsm lies not with HRT, you can't blame them for giving it a go, but with the FIA for a very dubious selection process that put HRT and USF1 on the grid (or nearly in USF1's case) in the first place.

Team's like HRT have no business being in F1 while there is a limit on the number of entries. In the '80s and '90s it was fine, not to mention kind of amusing, to see all those crappy little teams pop-up, embarress themselves and disappear within a season or two because they weren't preventing serious outfits from getting a run.

Aside from our North American friends who blame all of JV's woes on Richards, does anybody really believe that Prodrive would have done a worse job than HRT?

[Caroline]

Agree with Richards just about 100%.

He has proven time and time again that he knows how to build cars and knows how to run a team.

What he's saying is spot on. How are any new newcomers supposed to raise funds when the current crop have been nothing short of laughable in their efforts. Half way through the season their biggest claim is that all 6 of them finished a race together. Ho hum!

If Bernie would put her personal issues aside a moment then we might have Prodrive in the F1 paddocks. Instead they're back out to play in the dirt while we discuss welcoming a new outfit which may or may not have any experience in the game.

Oh, and to blame Richards for BAR's stuff up? Grow up. That was all the fault of Japan. Ever heard of Japanese lettuce? You leave lettuce on the docks for a week talking about letting it into the country and finally say yes but the lettuce is off and needs to be throw out. Similar cicumstance. The Japs wanted to go no further with BAR so basically buried it then when it was dead enough... felt its pulse, announced there was none and moved on.

:up:

[Retro Formula 1]

Richards may have a point, as, as much as I'm loathe to admit it, may Saint Devote once one looks past his lack of historical perspective and the absurd idea that they should somehow be 'thrown out'. There have, after all, been far worse teams in F1 than the three current newcomers; despite my reservations I think they're doing their best in the difficult financial circumstances; and people should give such efforts time, a commodity lacking nowadays. But I must say that I also agree with Ecclestone that, as brutal as it may sound, the one of most value to the sport and about whose continued participation I'm most bothered is Lotus because of the name. Hard, but true.

As for Richards' comments, it would be useful if he set them in proper context, for example by giving details of exactly what happened to cause him to cancel/postpone the Prodrive entry. This would surely have been a proper undertaking, and an example to the rest of the grid, had Richards lived up to his word, of cost-cutting in action.

I agree with a lot of this post.

Also, STD does make some good (although well disguised) points.

Lets take the emotion away from Dave Richards. He is very experienced at many levels of Motor Sport and his opinions carry weight. He may have p155ed off a few JV and JB fans but BAR needed a kick up the ass and restructuring to move forward. DR was that bast4rd and I think put the team in a position to move forward. They did, after all, have their most sucessful year under him until winning as Brawn GP.

Where I don't agree is that new teams will never amount to anything. There will be ones that fall by the way and ones that might linger on. There will also be ones that survive, get taken over and completely changed before going on to succeed. I remember a team called Tyrell which went from lows to highs to lows and was sold, morphed, bought, changed by Richards and won the WDC as Brawn GP.

The first years are going to be tough but lets not shoot them down too quickly?

[Daniel]

Absolutely.
I am amazed and appalled at the viscious attacks that people on this forum have made on Richards. A man that is highly respected and regarded in all the series in European and Japanese motor racing.

As opposed to your usual knuckle sandwich attacks on respected people?

P.S For someone with your obviously fantastic control of the English language (or perhaps just a thesausus) I find it funny that you can't spell vicious correctly. Rather mawkish of you I must say :rotflmao:

[woody2goody]

Exactly what is the point of being a new team these days? Since Bahrain the gap between the quickest driver in f1, Vettel and the new teams has INCREASED.

Ay Sakhir it was between 5 and 9 seconds and at Hungaroring it was 6 and 9 seconds.



That's nonsense - the gap decreased a heck of a lot in between. Yes it is increasing a bit now, but they are still a lot faster than they were in Bahrain.

At Monaco all the new teams were between 2.5 and 4 seconds off - Kovy nearly got into Q2 as well.

The Hungaroring is an extreme aero circuit, and the Red Bull was nearly 2 sec faster than the McLaren, so you can't really pick on the new teams for a lack of performance, when the best organisation in F1 can't even get close to the pace.

When you use the gap from Lotus/Virgin to McLaren and Renault, you get only 3 or 4 seconds or so, maybe less.

Richards (rightly so) has sour grapes for not being selected for the 2010 grid, but for him to slag the new teams off when -

a) he might not have done any better

and b) the new teams are now focused on 2011

is bad form and I say we shall see what happens next year before coming to any judgments about a team's competency.

Especially when they built their cars in such a short period of time.

If they are still 4-5 sec slower next year, then maybe this sort of talk will be justified. Until then just let them get on with learning, improving and racing.

[Saint Devote]

If they are still 4-5 sec slower next year, then maybe this sort of talk will be justified. Until then just let them get on with learning, improving and racing.

:D I'll agree with that. After all its the same that I am defending Schumi for.

[CNR]

http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=382438&FS=F1

Windsor responded on his Twitter page: "David Richards harmed fund-raising prospects for F1 in general when he walked away from his franchise (in 2008) with hardly a word".

[ArrowsFA1]

what did prodrive DO ?
IIRC Prodrive had the rug pulled out from underneath them over the customer car issue. They had a deal done to run McLarens when Max was encouraging customer cars, then the teams (predominently Williams I think) objected and the whole idea died a death leaving Prodrive with no means of putting together a team from scratch.

If Prodrive were to enter F1, and they're the kind of organisation with a long successful history in motorsport the the sport needs, I suspect they would do a very good job and be competitive within a few years.

Richards is probably right that having all three new teams off the pace at the back of the grid has hurt the prospects of potential new entrants simply because why would investors invest only to be in the same position?

That's not to say that Prodrive, had they got an entry for this season, would not have been at the back of the grid as well. It's hard to imagine any new team turning up and being mid-grid immediately.

[I am evil Homer]

As for this "Dave Richards knows how to run successful teams" - ask Petter Solberg what he thinks of that. He's had his fair share of failures too so there's no guarantee Prodrive, under the rules the other teams entered under, would do any better.

For example who would have made the cars? Prodrive can't it doesn't have the facilities to spare. Where would the money come from? Prodrive aren't actually hugely profitable given the money required to enter F1.

I think Richards is angry that he was all set to enter (under different rules) and was then denied entry by the FIA changing their minds. I think Lotus has done a fine job to date.

HRT however is a joke.

[Saint Devote]

As opposed to your usual knuckle sandwich attacks on respected people?

P.S For someone with your obviously fantastic control of the English language (or perhaps just a thesausus) I find it funny that you can't spell vicious correctly. Rather mawkish of you I must say :rotflmao:

Why are you always bringing up thesauruses? I was well educated and besides Hebrew which is my native tongue, I speak English, Arabic and Afrikaans.

I have no need for language aids to respond on this forum and I realize at times I will make errors. But I am also well aware that I am dealing with English speakers here and besides usually being people that cannot even speak ONE other language fluently, they also have the tendency to make derisive remarks as you enjoy doing. It says more about you than anything about me.

I do however have two words for you that would make Chaucer proud and, they are not "bon voyage"!

[Saint Devote]

The biggest pity of the 2010 season was that Pro-drive could not have taken over the 2010 Toyota project.

None of the new teams and those who sought an entry could have run that successfully other than Richards.

As usual stupid or unjust rules get in the way of everything, and we cannot fault the FIA for its lack of wanting to govern - but as we all aware it is a sign of the world we live in today: "government good - liberty bad".

[I am evil Homer]

Well given its availability you have to wonder why the Toyota cars weren't taken on. A cynic might suggest that they had very little in place as we've only seen pictures of 2 cars and little else.

[VkmSpouge]

I do wish Prodrive had been given a second chance at F1 after their first had been scuppered and I do see David Richards point but I won't criticise the new teams for that, they are just showing the realities of F1.


The gap was a bit better at Monte Carlo, at Silverstone is was still at 6 to 8 seconds.

No it wasn't. In qualifying Heikki Kovalainen was 3.564 seconds off Sebastian Vettel in Q1. Comparing it to Vettel's pole lap still doesn't get close to 6 seconds. Even Sakon Yamamoto was much closer than 8 seconds.


During the race even if it is 4 seconds per laps slower - as it was between Webber and Kovaleinen - it is still too much.

Just five years ago both Minardi and Jordan were lapping as far off the pace as Virgin and Lotus. Four years ago Super Aguri were lapping as slow as Hispania are now. It wasn't too much then, it isn't be too much now.

[V12]

While I have to respect what Richards and Prodrive have achieved in motorsport as a whole, these words are sour grapes and nothing more.

Spin it any way you like, but Lotus, Hispania/Campos and Virgin/Manor have all achieved what Prodrive couldn't - they put two extra cars on the grid and to date haven't given up.

And none of his whining about customer McLarens and cost-cutting can change that.

[woody2goody]

:D I'll agree with that. After all its the same that I am defending Schumi for.

Lol I'm still defending him as well so fair enough :D

[Saint Devote]

No it wasn't. In qualifying Heikki Kovalainen was 3.564 seconds off Sebastian Vettel in Q1. Comparing it to Vettel's pole lap still doesn't get close to 6 seconds. Even Sakon Yamamoto was much closer than 8 seconds.

Just five years ago both Minardi and Jordan were lapping as far off the pace as Virgin and Lotus. Four years ago Super Aguri were lapping as slow as Hispania are now. It wasn't too much then, it isn't be too much now.

At Silverstone KOV was 4.8 seconds slower than VET. This is not 5 years ago and f1 has changed. Which makes the difference effectively FAR worse in 2010 than it was even five and more years ago. These days drivers that are just 300ths of a second per lap off their teammates are considered SLOW.

There is nothing special having more teams on the grid permanently being moving chicanes and we saw what happens when a driver is delusional like KOV was at Valencia "S".

Bernie essentially does not want at least Virgin and the HRT disaster on the grid now because apparently it is costing money. He is right.

Hopefully no new teams are given entry into 2011 even if both Virgin and HRT collpase.

[Saint Devote]

While I have to respect what Richards and Prodrive have achieved in motorsport as a whole, these words are sour grapes and nothing more.

Spin it any way you like, but Lotus, Hispania/Campos and Virgin/Manor have all achieved what Prodrive couldn't - they put two extra cars on the grid and to date haven't given up.

And none of his whining about customer McLarens and cost-cutting can change that.

You cannot compare the situations - Richards was torpedoed by officialdom and he had every reason to complain.

And NONE of the backmarker mobile chicane teams have had anything like the success that Richards has had in motor sport.

Anyway - who wants to be in f1 just to make up the numbers? If Lotus believes that they will EVER win or even score points regularly withing 3 years they are smoking their socks.

The ONLY reason Force India improved is because they formed a technology association with Mclaren and in 2009 had a CEO that was seconded from the great Woking-based team.

[Z926A12]

I've got a lot of respect for Dave Richards and have little doubt that ProDrive would (probably) have produced a better car than Hispania and Virgin.

Still his comments are somewhat unnecessary and could ultimately only act to harm his future chances.

Shame Honda effectively kicked him out of BAR just when he had made them successful.

[V12]

You cannot compare the situations - Richards was torpedoed by officialdom and he had every reason to complain.

And NONE of the backmarker mobile chicane teams have had anything like the success that Richards has had in motor sport.

Anyway - who wants to be in f1 just to make up the numbers? If Lotus believes that they will EVER win or even score points regularly withing 3 years they are smoking their socks.

The ONLY reason Force India improved is because they formed a technology association with Mclaren and in 2009 had a CEO that was seconded from the great Woking-based team.

Williams {in their various incarnations, 1969 (FWRC, entrant), 1973 (FWRC, constructor), 1977 (WGPE, entrant), 1978 (WGPE, constructor), take your pick} were initially "just making up the numbers", as were McLaren in 1966, look what they went on to achieve. It's unrealistic to come straight into F1 and be at the front straight away, and I get the impression that's what Prodrive wanted. They are a large motorsport engineering concern and with half the application of the 3 new teams that have come in, they could have been respectable in their first year and progressed from there - you have to pay your dues and that's why I respect the three new entrants more than Prodrive.

I admit the proposed 2008 customer car regulations were a giant cluster*beep*, but if anyone had the know how and infrastructure to get around that it was Prodrive, they chose not to, and that's how I'll judge them.

As for Force India, as much as I wish they were still Jordan, or even Spyker, they worked the letter (sod the "spirit") of the regulations to their advantage (getting technical assistance while remaining an independent constructor) - kudos to them for that.

[Saint Devote]

Williams {in their various incarnations, 1969 (FWRC, entrant), 1973 (FWRC, constructor), 1977 (WGPE, entrant), 1978 (WGPE, constructor), take your pick} were initially "just making up the numbers", as were McLaren in 1966, look what they went on to achieve. It's unrealistic to come straight into F1 and be at the front straight away, and I get the impression that's what Prodrive wanted. They are a large motorsport engineering concern and with half the application of the 3 new teams that have come in, they could have been respectable in their first year and progressed from there - you have to pay your dues and that's why I respect the three new entrants more than Prodrive.

I admit the proposed 2008 customer car regulations were a giant cluster*beep*, but if anyone had the know how and infrastructure to get around that it was Prodrive, they chose not to, and that's how I'll judge them.

As for Force India, as much as I wish they were still Jordan, or even Spyker, they worked the letter (sod the "spirit") of the regulations to their advantage (getting technical assistance while remaining an independent constructor) - kudos to them for that.

Dear V12 - just like the 12 cylinder engine those days have gone and in both cases regretfully and sadly :D

Frank Williams' story is one that rivals any wonderful business success and if Hollywood looked further afield it would have already been made into a movie.

Mclaren similarly and now, Ron Dennis is carrying out the dream that was also part of Bruce Mclaren's.

- but let us also remember that when Williams began he was an experienced team owner and THE wheeler dealer known all over England and Europe as the man to see if anyone wanted a part or a car. In addition he found his Adrian Newey in the form of Patrick Head - but these days there are no such people about. Both Newey and Head come from the old school of motor racing.

The same sort of thing goes for Mclaren. The people who began the team were accomplished and experienced motor racing people and drivers.

But as I mentioned earlier on in this thread and gave reasons, these stories are not possible anymore.

Can the new teams succeed? If they have access to the many millions required and can attract Adrian Newey - but there is only one Newey and he is more valuable than any driver amd Red Bull has LOTS of money!

So unless they intend to make up numbers they may as well race in some other series.

MAYBE the only possiblity of success is Lotus. Gascoyne is no Newey or Head or Williams but he does know his way around. But the question remains just how Lotus will obtain the rest of the assets required to make the leap.

[DazzlaF1]

Dear V12 - just like the 12 cylinder engine
MAYBE the only possiblity of success is Lotus. Gascoyne is no Newey or Head or Williams but he does know his way around. But the question remains just how Lotus will obtain the rest of the assets required to make the leap.

Well Lotus have got one half of the design duo responsible for Force India's 2010 car (Mark Smith) working with Gascoyne on their 2011 car and with experience, the team will grow, Fernandes looks like he's definitely in it for the long haul and that can only help it further.

At Virgin, yes Nick Wirth has been out of the game for a while but he's not daft and I would'nt think he'd take up the 100% CFD approach if he didnt believe it could work in the future, its a method thats in its early days and its certainly too early to judge it now.

Realistically for both, if they can get on the current Toro Rosso levels of competitiveness by the end of 2011, then they can give themselves a pat on the back for a job well done and hopefully, it will give them the impetus to push on more from there, and lets hope they do.

As for HRT, well your guess is as good as mine about what will happen to them. Putting in a Japanese paymaster so they can stay afloat certainly does not look good. Its a team thats definitely ripe for a buyout but the big question is who wants them?

[BDunnell]

let us also remember that when Williams began he was an experienced team owner and THE wheeler dealer known all over England and Europe as the man to see if anyone wanted a part or a car. In addition he found his Adrian Newey in the form of Patrick Head - but these days there are no such people about.

So when the likes of Newey, Head, etc, leave the sport, F1 will merely wither and die because literally no-one of their talent will ever appear again, will it?

[Mia 01]

Why dont he dare himself insted of bashing thoose who does.

[V12]

Why dont he dare himself insted of bashing thoose who does.

Well you summed it up in one sentence as good or better than i did over two posts :up:

If the thread title was "Richards hits out at F1" I'd be more inclined to have sympathy, but taking pot shots at the three teams who dared to go where he didn't is a bit cheap IMO. I (genuinely) wish him the best of luck with the Aston Martin LMP and Mini WRC - but when it comes to F1 he should put up or shut up.

[Saint Devote]

So when the likes of Newey, Head, etc, leave the sport, F1 will merely wither and die because literally no-one of their talent will ever appear again, will it?

The sport wont die but yes, they are the last two and Newey is the last of a generation that saw individual designers who oversaw and were involced in everything.

F1 has shifted away from the individual to essentially the way an aircraft is now conceived. There is no ONE person but a leader team that conceives different areas and the rest of the design people - marry the parts and so on.

Even Patrick Head is no longer involved in teh same way.

Its just the way it is. The evolution of racing car design.

[Saint Devote]

Well Lotus have got one half of the design duo responsible for Force India's 2010 car (Mark Smith) working with Gascoyne on their 2011 car and with experience, the team will grow, Fernandes looks like he's definitely in it for the long haul and that can only help it further.

At Virgin, yes Nick Wirth has been out of the game for a while but he's not daft and I would'nt think he'd take up the 100% CFD approach if he didnt believe it could work in the future, its a method thats in its early days and its certainly too early to judge it now.

Realistically for both, if they can get on the current Toro Rosso levels of competitiveness by the end of 2011, then they can give themselves a pat on the back for a job well done and hopefully, it will give them the impetus to push on more from there, and lets hope they do.

As for HRT, well your guess is as good as mine about what will happen to them. Putting in a Japanese paymaster so they can stay afloat certainly does not look good. Its a team thats definitely ripe for a buyout but the big question is who wants them?

Possibly Lotus will be around and Force India will not given their financial and legal problems.

I have high regard for Nick Wirth. He has been around a long time and he did show his method does work with the Acura in the ALMS - but 2011 if they do manage to stay will be THE test.

I agree that Toro Rosso is the target but I doubt they will beat the Faenza team.

[Saint Devote]

Thats probably because as F1 cars have evolved over the past 20 years, its impossible for one person to design an entire F1 car, even Adrian Newey.

I agree.

But also, Newey is from a time and a school where the designer was able to do everything and brilliant men that would make Da Vinci weep with joy at their work were produced.

I hope that there will always be room for the super design mind that can conceptualize the abstract as a natural ability into the concrete form - for then f1 will be assured of an amazing future.

Newey is I reckon actually the first of the new designer with the advantage of having come from the old school - his biography might read "'Newey - An Evolution".

[ShiftingGears]

I agree.

But also, Newey is from a time and a school where the designer was able to do everything and brilliant men that would make Da Vinci weep with joy at their work were produced.

I hope that there will always be room for the super design mind that can conceptualize the abstract as a natural ability into the concrete form - for then f1 will be assured of an amazing future.

Newey is I reckon actually the first of the new designer with the advantage of having come from the old school - his biography might read "'Newey - An Evolution".

I think it has less to do with the era and more to do with Newey's brilliance at what he does, to be honest.

[Saint Devote]

I think it has less to do with the era and more to do with Newey's brilliance at what he does, to be honest.

I agree with you - but the era also needs to accomodate and allow free expression.

Today's era is becomiing more oppresive and suffocates innovation.

Colin Chapman today would not be possible and just think how much is goingto be lost as a result.

Reflect back and see how lucky we were for so long where f1 was about freedom to innovate and the wonderful machines and driving it produced.

This has all been diminished and in time will be forgotten as generations that have never known it will rise. It will only be those few of the new generation that will read history and have the bright ability to conceptualize what was and wish that it would be so still.