Belgian Grand Prix

[Saint Devote]

The last segment of the 2010 world champion fight commences at the magnificent Spa-Francochamps circuit.

Eau Rouge and Blanchimont are flat-out corners these days and names that give all true racing fans goose bumps.

The weather always moves from rain to sunshine and this is a circuit that Jense loves and uncertain conditions where he thrives.

The driver that has led the WDC title chase the longest this year - five races - Button is one of five drivers that is the potential world champion. Hamilton has led for four races, while the only driver that led then dropped down, now leads onto the main straight of this championship - Webber.

It is a travesty that the Champion of Spa, Raikkonen cannot be present in a third car this year - an RB6. It always brought out the best in Kimi.

I am sceptical that the MP4-25 will materially make up the deficit to the RB6 but I doubt it will be a wide as in Hunagary. Besides fast on the Kemmel straight this is a circuit where good downforce is extremely iimportant as the corners flow quickly into each other mostly.

Ferrari can spring a surprise with Alonso but Massa is struggling with the smaller front tyres this year - control tyres ARE the great eveil of racing since 2006.

Just looking back how different racing history would have looked had drivers not been able to race with the tyres that suited them best - Rindt compared to Stewart: Dunlop would make Jochen's tyres slightly WIDER than Jackies and he would be able to run them at a higher pressure.

Tyre competition and/or boutique tyres - ahh well, one can dream ..........

I reckon this is going to be a great contest between Vettel and Webber - surely something will not go wrong for Vettel THIS race?

But then the title winner usually does have a season where he seems to get the breaks and down the seasons Mark has been on the receiving end.

Third will be anyone of Button, Hamilton and Alonso or Kubica - he has transformed that team.

The new front wing test may compromise Ferrari but I doubt it will the RB6.

Medium and super soft tyres perhaps?

Fact: sector 2 of this track is as long as most other circuits and walking the climb up to Eau Rouge is a surprisingly steep compared to viewing it or driving it.

The hols are almost over - let the best game begin again :D

[ShiftingGears]

I reckon a RBR 1-2 with Hamilton or Alonso 3rd. But that is quite a gamble, considering RBR's ability to secure maximum points from race weekends.

[Sonic]

I reckon a RBR 1-2 with Hamilton or Alonso 3rd. But that is quite a gamble, considering RBR's ability to secure maximum points from race weekends.

Quite so. With a car this dominant how have Reb Bull not had half a dozen 1-2 finishes by now? So I'm going to predict a wet race and a Mercedes win! :D :eek:

[Mia 01]

Perhaps Kimi wil drive a car at the race, a Sauber, he will take it, the win.

[Saint Devote]

I reckon a RBR 1-2 with Hamilton or Alonso 3rd. But that is quite a gamble, considering RBR's ability to secure maximum points from race weekends.

I think they have learnt quite a bit since Turkey - how NOT to be one.

The RBR rules are clear:
Whichever driver is ahead in the championship will be given any kit that is not available for both.

Whichever driver is ahead in a race after the pit stop - BOTH will receive the order to "HOLD POSITION".

And given that this is a probable position at Spa we are not likely to see a repeat of the mismanagement that has plagued RBR.

[Saint Devote]

Quite so. With a car this dominant how have Red Bull not had half a dozen 1-2 finishes by now? So I'm going to predict a wet race and a Mercedes win! :D :eek:

:eek: Which Mercedes? Brackley or Woking?

Why not more 1-2 finishes? It requires a Ross on the "prat perch" to organize.

[Saint Devote]

Perhaps Kimi wil drive a car at the race, a Sauber, he will take it, the win.

:eek: When did Kimi go insane?

[Salvy102]

I think the German GP has always been mysterious, we never know what's going to happen. The most exciting race for me was back in 2008 when kimi and hamilton had that duel at the closing laps. Also last year when Force India surprised everyone and supposedly that was going to be the turning point for that team, but that never happened. i guess it was just a step up for force india. i hope this year's Belgian GP is a memorable one, with lots of overtaking!

[Sonic]

:eek: Which Mercedes? Brackley or Woking?



I refer to the official Silver Arrows.

[Saint Devote]

I refer to the official Silver Arrows.

Don't you think the Brawn-Illmor driven by "Britney" would be a better odds on than decades old racing cars?

[SGWilko]

http://blogs.targetx.com/snhu/ChrisDupuy/Tumbleweed.jpg
:p

Reminds me of a bungalow.....


....nuffink up top!

[Saint Devote]

Just one week to go before the sounds of f1 reverberate through the forests of the Ardennes.

It is very diappointing that Kimi will not be present and cannot be present in a third RB06. Every generation has had its Spa-meister from Clark to Senna to Schumi and Raikonnen.

I reckon the next will be Vettel. He is fearless. He reminds me a lot of Jochen Rindt and I think Bernie sees something like this in him too - ironically Bernie was Rindt's manager and he is the de facto manager of Seb as well.

Another Rindt association is that of great Vettel supporter Helmut Marko who was a close friend from childhood of Jochen's and with Fittipaldi would have been the Rindt owned f2 team drivers for 1971.

Vettel has had a rough part of the year. He has made some errors, and the team cost him a victory at the start of the year.

I think that Sebastian is quicker than Hamilton and Alonso and has a greater limit capacity than the Brit although maybe equal to Alonso.

His victory at Monza in an inferior car compared to al the top runners remains the best we have seen in grand prix racing since then.

Achieving an 8th pole position at Spa will make him the first driver since Schumi in 2004 to win more than 7 poles.

Webber has had a fantastic summer - while Vettel has been the one with the problems. The summer is ending and everything being equal at RBR Webber's job is about to get even more difficult.

Vettel for victory at Spa and the crowining of the quickest driver as the new Spa-meister.

PS: Red Bull Cola ROCKS!!!

[Sleeper]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say Alonso to win the next two races, both Ferrari and McLaren will be faster than Red Bull in the S1 and 3, but only Ferrari will keep close enough to RBR in S2 to beat them over a lap IMO.

[Ari]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say Alonso to win the next two races, both Ferrari and McLaren will be faster than Red Bull in the S1 and 3, but only Ferrari will keep close enough to RBR in S2 to beat them over a lap IMO.

Webber was on ONE HD last night (Aussie sports channel) and said that RBR expect to be 2nd best in the next two races, particularly Monza. He also said that they are very comfortable with the last 5 races.

In short, RBR will NOT be driving the thing 110% in the next two races if a win does not appear likely. They are happy to play for points... maybe 3rd to 5th or something as they are expecting to finish on a rush.

[Saint Devote]

Webber was on ONE HD last night (Aussie sports channel) and said that RBR expect to be 2nd best in the next two races, particularly Monza. He also said that they are very comfortable with the last 5 races.

In short, RBR will NOT be driving the thing 110% in the next two races if a win does not appear likely. They are happy to play for points... maybe 3rd to 5th or something as they are expecting to finish on a rush.

Webber may speak for himself but I doubt that Sebastian Vettel has such thoughts of defeat :D

At Silverstone and Monte Carlo the RB06 showed that it has speed and grip and I am sure Mark remembers THOSE grands prixs well.

[Sleeper]

Webber may speak for himself but I doubt that Sebastian Vettel has such thoughts of defeat :D

At Silverstone and Monte Carlo the RB06 showed that it has speed and grip and I am sure Mark remembers THOSE grands prixs well.

Monaco is irelavent to this race, completely different tracks, but the RB6 doesnt have any streightline speed, it just cant get the downforce off to lower the drag and thats going to really hurt on the Kemmel streight and the run from Stavelot to the Bus Stop, just like it did last year.

[Mia 01]

RBR will be very very strong as usual.

Its even between Ferrai and MacLaren at this track.

[Saint Devote]

Monaco is irelavent to this race, completely different tracks, but the RB6 doesnt have any streightline speed, it just cant get the downforce off to lower the drag and thats going to really hurt on the Kemmel streight and the run from Stavelot to the Bus Stop, just like it did last year.

The point is that the RB6 is good in high downforce tracks and quick ones.

They have the quickest driver in f1 and the most determined one.

And they have a design team led by Newey - they have designed a type of traction control system that does NOT work on the rear wheels so technically they do not have a traction control system as such.

How is this suspicion raised? Because of the speed and the engine note that has been noticed and reported in the press a few weeks ago.

They reckon it is being governed by the throttle and the ignition.

[Robinho]

link please!

[Saint Devote]

link please!

This was on the paper and used ink :D

Its in the F1 Racing with Jenson emblazoned on the front cover from several weeks ago!

The writer - he does not however use the term traction control but offers the explanation as to why the RB6 IS so consistent.

I use the term because it is like traction control and correctly technically I reckon why RBR CAN say without trouble that "who needs traction control?" - because it does not link directly to the rear wheels.

The writer is Pat Symonds - yes THAT Pat Symonds - brilliant racing engineer and a pity he is not in race. Someone like Force India or one of the new teams could use him thats for sure.

He said that when he was at Benneton I think - they worked on a similar system but could not get it to work.

[F1boat]

Ferrari FTW in Belgium again :)

[Saint Devote]

I see you read F1 Racing magazine. You've quite often lately mentioned that Vettel is the fastest driver in F1 in your opinion. What was you opinion of the piece in F1 Racing which explains and goes into depth about why Webber has been faster than Vettel so far this season? It gives valid information and telemetry data which backs up the authors stance, and as you hold this publication highly, I am interested to know your opinion? :)

http://www.f1racing.co.uk/content

I do not need F1 Racing to tell me that Vettel is the quickest driver iin f1 today - that is evident from his 7 pole positions and likely more that will make him the first driver since Schumacher to do so.

Telemetry merely tells one what is happening, not why - it is a form of techical analysis and is useful because it describes patterns that historically raise the probabilites of what is going to happen.

The why has to be investigated and the engineers can do that.

But why was Webber quicker?

We know now that Vettel did not have a car that was optimum - but as soon as that was rectified he has won pole with the exception of Turkey where he had a locking wheel during Q3 and in Canada where he had a messy Q3 but still beat Webber.

I do not hold F1 Racing in "high esteem" but I do enjoy their articles and reading JV's comments and that of Pat Symonds, both who I do hold iin high regard.

[call_me_andrew]

I heard ticket sales were below expectations for this race. The website makes it look like most of the grandstands have sold out.

http://www.spagrandprix.com/

[Saint Devote]

:eek: Rosberg affectionately nicknamed "Britney" by Jense made his triathlon debut in Austria last weekend and ran a marathon distance just under SEVEN minutes quicker than Jense did in the London Marathon - 2 hours 7 minutes 23 seconds.

Definitely Jense would beat him in the swimming event :D

I wonder how many people Jense will get to do triathlons at Mclaren? Both Shov and Bono his RE and assitant RE did the shorter event in London.

You HAVE to love swimming and running and biking.

Personally I just love swimming and runnning - but my running time is not quite as good as the above fellows - but then I am nearly 20 years older than Jense alone!!!

Many years ago I did finish third in a biathlon event in the Israeli Defense Force after leading for most of the event until running out of "puff".

[Dave B]

Even if Vettel is "fastest" I remember the Saint telling us the only measure which matters is the Championship table. So on that logic, Webber's the "better" driver. Apparently.

[f1indiablog]

Guys wat if it rains?
how the equation will change?

I read it will definitely rain on Sundayhttp://bit.ly/c0G8Zi

[turismo6]

Guys wat if it rains?
how the equation will change?

I read it will definitely rain on Sundayhttp://bit.ly/c0G8Zi

It's been "definitely raining" at the last four races!

[SGWilko]

Guys wat if it rains?


Everything gets wet?

[f1indiablog]

"at one stage in its history it had rained at the Belgian Grand Prix for twenty years in a row." ;)

Source:wiki

I think tyre management will be crucial

[ShiftingGears]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86088

"Modifications have been made to Les Combes chicane at Spa-Francorchamps in a bid to deter drivers from cutting the corner.

As part of a number of revisions made to the Belgian Grand Prix venue, the large section of grass behind the corner sequence has been relaid with asphalt."

I really don't see how this prevents corner cutting, considering noone wants to be heading across grass which has no real grip at all. Seems a bit silly, to be honest.

[SGWilko]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86088

"Modifications have been made to Les Combes chicane at Spa-Francorchamps in a bid to deter drivers from cutting the corner.

As part of a number of revisions made to the Belgian Grand Prix venue, the large section of grass behind the corner sequence has been relaid with asphalt."

I really don't see how this prevents corner cutting, considering noone wants to be heading across grass which has no real grip at all. Seems a bit silly, to be honest.

bumps similar to those used at the Monza chicanes have been put down - which will act as a deterrent to slow drivers down if they run off the track

[ioan]

Everything gets wet?

:rotflmao: Good one! :up:

[f1indiablog]

Renault confirms F-duct for Spa
http://bit.ly/clV2jt

[gloomyDAY]

Renault confirms F-duct for Spa
http://bit.ly/clV2jtWho else is taking the F-Duct?

I think McLaren are taking it off for Monza, but I don't remember.

[AndyL]

I think McLaren are taking it off for Monza, but I don't remember.

I also saw that reported - on the Autosport web site possibly? The reason being that there's no benefit to be gained from it on a low-downforce Monza set-up.

[gloomyDAY]

I also saw that reported - on the Autosport web site possibly? The reason being that there's no benefit to be gained from it on a low-downforce Monza set-up.Yep! Here it is.


http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86106

[woody2goody]

I also saw that reported - on the Autosport web site possibly? The reason being that there's no benefit to be gained from it on a low-downforce Monza set-up.

It would make sense, considering the McLaren is faster in a straight line than the Red Bull anyway, meaning they're better off adding more downforce so they can try to be competitive through the fairly high-speed corners of sector 2 and 3.

In theory this should ensure that McLaren have the ability to overtake fairly consistently.

Red Bull need to watch their back for Ferrari and Force India IMO. maybe even Toro Rosso at a push, who are very quick in a straight line.

[Sleeper]

The point is that the RB6 is good in high downforce tracks and quick ones.

They have the quickest driver in f1 and the most determined one.

And they have a design team led by Newey - they have designed a type of traction control system that does NOT work on the rear wheels so technically they do not have a traction control system as such.

How is this suspicion raised? Because of the speed and the engine note that has been noticed and reported in the press a few weeks ago.

They reckon it is being governed by the throttle and the ignition.

Actually the only low downforce track we've been to so far this year is Montreal, and McLaren and Ferrari were both faster.

[gloomyDAY]

I always get nervous over Spa.

Seems to be the racetrack that's make or break in F1.


I heard ticket sales were below expectations for this race. The website makes it look like most of the grandstands have sold out.

http://www.spagrandprix.com/Those ticket prices are ridiculous. :mad:

[Saint Devote]

Actually the only low downforce track we've been to so far this year is Montreal, and McLaren and Ferrari were both faster.

Both Vettel and Webber led the race with the German suffering gearbox problems around half-distance and having to slow down.

Webber started 7th after having to change a gearbox and then pitting after leading more than 20 laps had to make a pitstop because of the bad Montreal surface and the team decided to turn the car down to save it for the next race.

Both RB6's qualified 2 and 3 - and Vettel only got one clear lasp at teh end when his tyres were pff his optimum - and as we have seen he is the best qualifier in f1 being able to do incredible speed when only 1 lap is available and is the qucikest driver in f1 today.

Spa does not have a comparable surface to Montreal and it was that which became the joker in the pack.

This is, as you imply a "bad race" for RBR?

And anyway Montreal was quite a few races ago - the rate of development at RBR is pretty good - better than Mclaren as we have seen and only Ferrari has really improved relative to the Austrian team.


I think this race is going to be between Vettel, Alonso and Webber this weekend.

[Saint Devote]

"at one stage in its history it had rained at the Belgian Grand Prix for twenty years in a row." ;)

Source:wiki

I think tyre management will be crucial

Given his amazing Hunagrian victory, Webber ought to be favorite in that case - if it rains and HOPEFULLY the Mclarens have improved and, the conditions become really Spa-like then Jense will become a factor.

And BTW: happy birthday to Webber and the man with the strongest hand shake ever Gerhard Berger. A Spa win would be a wonderful present and he would definitely become favorite to win the WDC.

[Roamy]

Given his amazing Hunagrian victory, Webber ought to be favorite in that case - if it rains and HOPEFULLY the Mclarens have improved and, the conditions become really Spa-like then Jense will become a factor.

And BTW: happy birthday to Webber and the man with the strongest hand shake ever Gerhard Berger. A Spa win would be a wonderful present and he would definitely become favorite to win the WDC.

what are you on? If it rains Jense would be lucky to hold Hamilton's umbrella

[Dave B]

Raining, then...

http://a2.twimg.com/profile_images/726033402/will_twitter_normal.jpg (http://twitter.com/willbuxton)
willbuxton Huge thunder crack. The rain is now bucketing down. Formula BMW session red flagged. Standing water at La Source.

http://a3.twimg.com/profile_images/257373831/redbullf1spy_NEW_normal.jpg (http://twitter.com/redbullf1spy)
redbullf1spy Well that bodes well. Formula BMW practice has been red flagged 'due to dangerous track conditions'. Yes... it is still raining. Hard.

http://a1.twimg.com/profile_images/577375413/Twitter_profilepicture_normal.jpg (http://twitter.com/VirginRacing)
VirginRacing Massive thunder. The electricity went out too. Lovely ;-)

[f1indiablog]

Watch LIVE belgian Grand Prix at spa as it unfolds at http://bit.ly/bIHzef

[UltimateDanGTR]

I get the feeling it is Ferrari's weekend.

there's something good about that ferrari in the rain here. there is something good about that farcerrari in dry conditions too.

[f1indiablog]

P1 TOP 3:
1ST FERNANDO ALONSO (Ferrari - 2:00.797)
2ND LEWIS HAMILTON (McLaren - 2:01.567) 3
RD ROBERT KUBICA (Renault - 2:02.081).

no red bull :)

[Dave B]

First practice times:



Pos Driver Car Time Gap Laps
1. Fernando Alonso Ferrari 2m00.797s 17
2. Lewis Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes 2m01.567s + 0.770s 7
3. Robert Kubica Renault 2m02.081s + 1.284s 14
4. Sebastian Vettel Red Bull-Renault 2m02.450s + 1.653s 11
5. Adrian Sutil Force India-Mercedes 2m02.646s + 1.849s 14
6. Jenson Button McLaren-Mercedes 2m02.913s + 2.116s 6
7. Mark Webber Red Bull-Renault 2m02.926s + 2.129s 11
8. Kamui Kobayashi BMW Sauber-Ferrari 2m03.401s + 2.604s 17
9. Rubens Barrichello Williams-Cosworth 2m03.424s + 2.627s 7
10. Michael Schumacher Mercedes 2m03.489s + 2.692s 9
11. Felipe Massa Ferrari 2m03.601s + 2.804s 17
12. Nico Hulkenberg Williams-Cosworth 2m03.649s + 2.852s 17
13. Nico Rosberg Mercedes 2m03.654s + 2.857s 6
14. Pedro de la Rosa BMW Sauber-Ferrari 2m03.851s + 3.054s 17
15. Vitantonio Liuzzi Force India-Mercedes 2m04.145s + 3.348s 12
16. Jaime Alguersuari Toro Rosso-Ferrari 2m04.250s + 3.453s 16
17. Vitaly Petrov Renault 2m04.690s + 3.893s 15
18. Sebastien Buemi Toro Rosso-Ferrari 2m05.680s + 4.883s 6
19. Timo Glock Virgin-Cosworth 2m05.697s + 4.900s 18
20. Lucas di Grassi Virgin-Cosworth 2m06.695s + 5.898s 14
21. Jarno Trulli Lotus-Cosworth 2m07.189s + 6.392s 15
22. Bruno Senna HRT-Cosworth 2m07.737s + 6.940s 13
23. Heikki Kovalainen Lotus-Cosworth 2m07.955s + 7.158s 15
24. Sakon Yamamoto HRT-Cosworth 2m10.507s + 9.710s 18

[Dave B]

Second session red-flagged with ~ 15 minutes to go, race control saying "may be spectators in a dangerous area" :s

[Dave B]

Green again with 4 mins remaining, it's going to be crowded out there! Everybody's queued up. Race control say "green", but pitlane light is still red. Bizarre....

Technology over-ruled by guy waving a green flag, but there's less than 3 minutes left

[Dave B]

A strange and chaotic end to the session ALO fastest then SUT HAM KUB MAS VET BUT DLR BAR KOB PET MSC ROS ALG HUL LIU BEU WEB KOV TRU DIG SEN YAM GLO

[wedge]

The boffins in at Force India know a thing or two on how to make an efficient low-DF spec car

[truefan72]

really baffled by race control.

Apparently there were kids climbing a fence - that's why the session was stopped.

they could have stopped the clock
then botched the release of cars at the restart with conflicting lights.
seemed like amateur hour to me


Force India looks good

will now wait for news after the FIA inspections of RBR & Ferrari and their legality.

[I am evil Homer]

So far it seems Ferrari and MAc have the cars dialled in, with FI also showing well.

[Sleeper]

what are you on? If it rains Jense would be lucky to hold Hamilton's umbrella

You mean like in Australia and China? Remind me who won those two wet/dry races.

[ioan]

You mean like in Australia and China? Remind me who won those two wet/dry races.

The guy who was slower and got lucky.

[Roamy]

The guy who was slower and got lucky.

Thanks ioan
I could not have said it better!

[Dave B]

FP2 times:



Pos Driver Team Time Gap Laps
1. Fernando Alonso Ferrari 1m49.032s 25
2. Adrian Sutil Force India-Mercedes 1m49.157s +0.125 17
3. Lewis Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes 1m49.248s +0.216 14
4. Robert Kubica Renault 1m49.282s +0.250 20
5. Felipe Massa Ferrari 1m49.588s +0.556 23
6. Sebastian Vettel Red Bull-Renault 1m49.689s +0.657 19
7. Jenson Button McLaren-Mercedes 1m49.755s +0.723 20
8. Pedro de la Rosa Sauber-Ferrari 1m50.081s +1.049 27
9. Rubens Barrichello Williams-Cosworth 1m50.128s +1.096 22
10. Kamui Kobayashi Sauber-Ferrari 1m50.200s +1.168 24
11. Vitaly Petrov Renault 1m50.251s +1.219 24
12. Michael Schumacher Mercedes 1m50.341s +1.309 23
13. Nico Rosberg Mercedes 1m50.382s +1.350 21
14. Jaime Alguersuari Toro Rosso-Ferrari 1m50.682s +1.650 25
15. Nico Hulkenberg Williams-Cosworth 1m50.831s +1.799 20
16. Vitantonio Liuzzi Force India-Mercedes 1m51.520s +2.488 17
17. Sebastien Buemi Toro Rosso-Ferrari 1m51.523s +2.491 25
18. Mark Webber Red Bull-Renault 1m51.636s +2.604 19
19. Heikki Kovalainen Lotus-Cosworth 1m53.480s +4.448 15
20. Jarno Trulli Lotus-Cosworth 1m53.639s +4.607 21
21. Lucas di Grassi Virgin-Cosworth 1m54.325s +5.293 17
22. Bruno Senna HRT-Cosworth 1m55.751s +6.719 24
23. Sakon Yamamoto HRT-Cosworth 1m56.039s +7.007 21
24. Timo Glock Virgin-Cosworth 2m03.179s +14.147 3

[Dave B]

F1 got lucky with the weather: the GP2 sesson's just been red-flagged and abandoned due to the rain.

[wedge]

The guy who was slower and got lucky.

He beat Hamilton fair and square on the final restart/stint in China

[Big Ben]

It seems the McLaren drivers are focusing on different things with their cars with Button again testing how the car behaves when you go slow.

[ioan]

It seems the McLaren drivers are focusing on different things with their cars with Button again testing how the car behaves when you go slow.

The team tries to adapt the car as much as possible to his needs! :D

[gloomyDAY]

The team tries to adapt the car as much as possible to his needs! :D Awww! Beat me to it. :p

[Roamy]

RE: Schumacher

zoom zoom zoom the Prix is flying :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[ioan]

Awww! Beat me to it. :p

I'm fresh after holidays! :D

[truefan72]

It seems the McLaren drivers are focusing on different things with their cars with Button again testing how the car behaves when you go slow.

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

that's why I love this forum
very funny. Instant classic post

...Yeah, i know button isn't that slow, but the humor is just priceless :up:

[steveaki13]

It seems the McLaren drivers are focusing on different things with their cars with Button again testing how the car behaves when you go slow.

I know Yamamoto is never the quickest, but he must have been doing the same early on in session one, his first 3 laps which came up on the screen were 3:33, 3:20?, 3:06. Not quite sure how he was lapping 3 laps at 1+minutes off the pace. :confused:

[f1indiablog]

really baffled by race control.

Apparently there were kids climbing a fence - that's why the session was stopped.

they could have stopped the clock
then botched the release of cars at the restart with conflicting lights.
seemed like amateur hour to me


Force India looks good

will now wait for news after the FIA inspections of RBR & Ferrari and their legality.

Clock is not stopped in Free Practice Sessions :)
N yeah Force India is making few of Indian fans nervous. Can they or not
?

[f1indiablog]

Belgium Grand Prix 2010: Qualifying Session LIVE (Online Streaming) (http://www.f1indiablog.in/2010/08/belgium-grand-prix-2010-qualifying.html)

http://bit.ly/baRHli

[DazzlaF1]

what a qualifying session so far, looks like we're guaranteed at least one of the 6 newbies going through to Q2

[DazzlaF1]

Thats it

GOING OUT

18. Trulli
19. Kobayashi
20. Senna
21. Yamamoto (I dont know if this is true but is that Yamamoto's career best qualifying?)
22. de la Rosa
23. di Grassi
24. Petrov

Both Glock and Kovalainen get through to Q2

[ioan]

Stupid RBR strategy.
First they send Vettel out as last, then they send him out to destroy a set of intermediates instead of waiting to see if the track dries or not.

[ioan]

21. Yamamoto (I dont know if this is true but is that Yamamoto's career best qualifying?)


He certainly was 20th on the grid before! ;)

[DazzlaF1]

He certainly was 20th on the grid before! ;)

Thats me corrected.

Glock is on fire at the moment, just over half a second off Buemi

EDIT: Not anymore, Buemi goes 7th

[DazzlaF1]

GOING OUT

11. Schumacher (Starts 21st)
12. Rosberg (Starts 17th)
13. Alguersuari (Starts 11th)
14. Liuzzi (Starts 12th)
15. Buemi (Starts 13th)
16. Kovalainen (Starts 14th)
17. Glock (Starts 15th)

14th for Kovalainen is the best for a newbie this season but McLaren are looking great at the moment, got that f-duct working well

[ioan]

Impressive Hamilton! :up:

Highest paid driver Alonso?! :rotflmao: :down:

[SGWilko]

Alonso makes yet another mistake.

He's worth every penny if you ask me!!! ;)

Lewis makes it on the front row.

Gonna be a goodun. :D

[Valve Bounce]

Not bad for a #2 driver

[SGWilko]

Glock is on fire



Bloody unreliable new teams! :rotflmao:

[SGWilko]

Not bad for a #2 driver

Stick another prawn on the barby!

[Valve Bounce]

Stick another prawn on the barby!

Done!! (metaphorically). It's 11.12 pm here, and bloody cold outside, and I'm about to go to bed - Happy! :)

[truefan72]

great qualy sessions.
Hamilton lost it in the first stint of q3, anyway, I hope Hamilton will pass Webber on the first lap and hopefully webber won't do something crazy.

As to RBR it may be time to start thinking of putting their resources behind Webber.

What happened to Alonso?

I honestly thought Sutil will be faster

That Renault has become a strong car, but usually lacks the pace to stay with the big 3 for an entire race.

Good job Williams.

poor job Mercedes, or perhaps that car is really not that good at all. It seems clear now that Honda built a dynamite car for 2009 and since then brawn/mercedes have been struggling to keep up with significant development.

should be a great race tomorrow.
Is it going to rain?

[Dave B]

I like that front row very much, and words can't express how happy I am that Alonso's only tenth.

[ioan]

I like that front row very much, and words can't express how happy I am that Alonso's only tenth.

He only needs to complain to Stella 9 time tomorrow. Oh wait only one driver in front of him is sponsored by Santander! :D

[SGWilko]

He only needs to complain to Stella 9 time tomorrow. Oh wait only one driver in front of him is sponsored by Santander! :D

All is not lost Ioan, the Macca's are sponsored by Santander also.

Paella all round, eh? ;)

[ioan]

All is not lost Ioan, the Macca's are sponsored by Santander also.

Paella all round, eh? ;)

Oh crap, I thought they were sponsored by Vodafone and Santander left already.
It look like after all Fernando's maths were right when he said that he has 50% chances to win the race! :D

[VkmSpouge]

Interesting qualifying session and very interesting grid positions at the front of the field. It could provide for quite a bit of excitement on lap 1. Excellent laps by Mark Webber, Lewis Hamilton and Robert Kubica.

EDIT: Timo Glock given a 5 place grid penalty for blocking Sakon Yamamoto.

[truefan72]

Interesting qualifying session and very interesting grid positions at the front of the field. It could provide for quite a bit of excitement on lap 1. Excellent laps by Mark Webber, Lewis Hamilton and Robert Kubica.
seems to me that webber and hamilton are proving everyone right ( except a few folks around here) that they are the best 2 drivers out there. I look forward to an entertaining duel between them tomorrow


EDIT: Timo Glock given a 5 place grid penalty for blocking Sakon Yamamoto.
is that even possible?
... actually yamamoto was doing better by the time qualy rolled around. And the car is not as awful either. But it really should be klien or chandhock in that seat.

[ioan]

EDIT: Timo Glock given a 5 place grid penalty for blocking Sakon Yamamoto.

Strange things can happen.

[f1indiablog]

provisional grid after Buemi and Glock's penalty

http://bit.ly/9iYhHC

[Dave B]

All these penalties put Heikki's Lotus up to P13 - could points be on the cards?

[VkmSpouge]

All these penalties put Heikki's Lotus up to P13 - could points be on the cards?

Ironically one thing that will give the likes of Lotus a shot at points would be a first lap crash wiping out a large number of cars but these are more likely to happen in the midfield and that's precisely where Lotus now find themselves on the grid.

[steveaki13]

A wet race in Belgium, could see a newbie get a point or two. You never know.

Look at 98 only 8 finishers.

[Triumph]

It's looking hopeful for McLaren, especially Lewis. I'm expecting a strong performance from Mark, with Sebastian in there somewhere too - and of course Fernando, who will probably make up a good few places from his starting position.

[steveaki13]

:arrows: :crazy:

Sorry about this. Being a bit of an anorak here.

Yamamoto's best Quali position I can work out is 19th.

He Qualified 19th in Germany and China 2006 for Super Aguri.

For the race tomorrow with grid penalties and alike I make it he will start from the heights of 19th again.

These are his number of times he has Qualified in these positions.
Quali Sessions: 18

19th: 3
20th: 5
21st: 1
22nd:7
23rd: 0
24th: 2

As you can see a stunning career.

[Hawkmoon]

:arrows: :crazy:

Sorry about this. Being a bit of an anorak here.

Yamamoto's best Quali position I can work out is 19th.

He Qualified 19th in Germany and China 2006 for Super Aguri.

For the race tomorrow with grid penalties and alike I make it he will start from the heights of 19th again.

These are his number of times he has Qualified in these positions.
Quali Sessions: 18

19th: 3
20th: 5
21st: 1
22nd:7
23rd: 0
24th: 2

As you can see a stunning career.

To be fair, when has he ever had a car that was capable of more?

[truefan72]

To be fair, when has he ever had a car that was capable of more?

exactly

[Roamy]

Strange things can happen.

Yea I am sure the "Rain Prix" will storm through the field from position 18 or so :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[ioan]

To be fair, when has he ever had a car that was capable of more?

:up:

[ioan]

Yea I am sure the "Rain Prix" will storm through the field from position 18 or so :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

He did it several times already, so you never know.
It was great to see him keeping it on the track yesterday while the others were spinning out everywhere around him.

I will however keep my laughs for next season, just in case JV comes back to prop up the end of the grid. :p

[Valve Bounce]

I would not be surprised if SchM makes up a significant number of places, and if the safety car comes out and it rains heavily, then he will get into serious points. Never underestimate an experienced opponent.

[UltimateDanGTR]

I would not be surprised if SchM makes up a significant number of places, and if the safety car comes out and it rains heavily, then he will get into serious points. Never underestimate an experienced opponent.

well said. I say if the rain comes at any point today, then 18 of the 24 starters have a chance of winning, it just depends on the timing of that rain.

[Garry Walker]

nice job vettel

[Hawkmoon]

Guess Vettel zigged when he should have zagged.

[ArrowsFA1]

Gotta admire Vettel's consistency. He does have this habit of turning right into his opponents!

[Garry Walker]

I so want to hear what Vettel says when he is told he has a drive through, too funny, too funny, too funny.

[Hawkmoon]

I don't really agree with penalising drivers for this sort of incident. Sure Vettel ****ed up and ruined Button's race but it was hardly deliberate. Don't we want drivers to try and pass? If they penalise them for getting it wrong they run the risk of discouraging drivers from trying to pass.

[Garry Walker]

will someone please ban this idiot vettel from road, he is hitting everything and everyone

[wedge]

I so want to hear what Vettel says when he is told he has a drive through, too funny, too funny, too funny.

Get's a puncture as well!

His day is going from bad to worse :rotflmao:

[F1boat]

will someone please ban this idiot vettel from road, he is hitting everything and everyone

I say black flag is appropriate. This is far worse than what Mike did.

[Garry Walker]

Get's a puncture as well!

His day is going from bad to worse :rotflmao:

whereas my day is going from very good to even better :rotflmao:

[ioan]

I don't really agree with penalising drivers for this sort of incident. Sure Vettel ****ed up and ruined Button's race but it was hardly deliberate. Don't we want drivers to try and pass? If they penalise them for getting it wrong they run the risk of discouraging drivers from trying to pass.

Completely agree. Vettel made a slight mistake and combined with the track conditions he lost the car and unfortunately Button got hit in the process, which Button himself acknowledge a couple of minutes ago.

What the stewards do nowadays is what will kill overtaking tries for good.

[motetarip]

any bets on whether Vettel will admit that he was at fault?! no takers then...

[F1boat]

any bets on whether Vettel will admit that he was at fault?! no takers then...

:D and people say that Fred is a whiner...

[wedge]

whereas my day is going from very good to even better :rotflmao:

I bet your day wouldn't get any better when Rubinho crashed into Alonso!


Completely agree. Vettel made a slight mistake and combined with the track conditions he lost the car and unfortunately Button got hit in the process, which Button himself acknowledge a couple of minutes ago.

What the stewards do nowadays is what will kill overtaking tries for good.

Schumi punted off Trulli at the 2003(?) Malaysian GP and got a drive thru penalty. He had no complaints and admitted he deserved it.

[Hawkmoon]

I bet your day wouldn't get any better when Rubinho crashed into Alonso!



Schumi punted off Trulli at the 2003(?) Malaysian GP and got a drive thru penalty. He had no complaints and admitted he deserved it.

The stewards are too trigger happy with the penalties these days. Let them race and save the penalties for the really bad stuff.

[ioan]

Bye bye Alonsita! :wave:

[Garry Walker]

just the perfect day :D

[Garry Walker]

Schumacher for a podium now

[Ranger]

Pretty ordinary mistake by Alonso. :\

Great drives by Kobayashi and Schumacher. :up:

[ioan]

Why do they keep that crappy SC on the track for so long?!

Charlie you cheapskate you are robbing us of a great race end!

[wedge]

The stewards are too trigger happy with the penalties these days. Let them race and save the penalties for the really bad stuff.

It was an avoidable collision but Vettel didn't gain anything from it. Made me wonder what Mansell was thinking.

[Hawkmoon]

It was an avoidable collision but Vettel didn't gain anything from it. Made me wonder what Mansell was thinking.

Every incident can be considered avoidable from a certain point of view. The stewards need to keep out of it until something really bad happens. This wasn't that bad, just a stuff up on Vettel's part.

[ioan]

It was an avoidable collision but Vettel didn't gain anything from it. Made me wonder what Mansell was thinking.

He was thinking nothing, otherwise they would have done the right thing.
Nanny state is part of F1 when it comes to cars coming close to one other, and they go to extra lengths and bring in all kind of gimmicks in order to improve overtaking! :\

[F1boat]

Great race for Lewis!

[ShiftingGears]

The stewards are too trigger happy with the penalties these days. Let them race and save the penalties for the really bad stuff.

Yep.

Also, nice day at the office for Hamilton and Webber. Pulled away from the other championship contenders quite nicely.

Also safety car out for too long, again. I was surprised the loss of grip during that period didn't lead to more accidents.

[SGWilko]

It was an avoidable collision but Vettel didn't gain anything from it. Made me wonder what Mansell was thinking.

Vettel jinked way too violently in iffy conditions. He was penalised for being way too lary, being way too impatient, and ruining a competitors race by his moronic actions.

The guy should be banned from right turns. Maybe take up drag racing?

Tongue in cheek of course, but Vettel still has a heck of alot to learn.

[truefan72]

well done Lewis!

the kind of result I wanted

Webber finishing 2nd and forcing RBR to start backing him
Kubica 3rd in a brilliant race ( although he should have finished 2nd)

Now a well deserved brilliant race accolades to Mercedes GP and their drivers
from where they started they did an awesome job, as did petrov and Kobayashi.

Great race

[F1boat]

The guy should be banned from right turns.

nascar is calling...

[SGWilko]

nascar is calling...

He'll be in the wall from day 1! ;)

[ioan]

Vettel jinked way too violently in iffy conditions. He was penalised for being way too lary, being way too impatient, and ruining a competitors race by his moronic actions.

The guy should be banned from right turns. Maybe take up drag racing?

Tongue in cheek of course, but Vettel still has a heck of alot to learn.

Why exaggerate? He only needs to be more patient, which is much easier than trying to become a very fast racer.

[gm99]

any bets on whether Vettel will admit that he was at fault?! no takers then...

Lost that one... Vettel just admitted on German tv that it was indeed his fault and that he just lost the car, but that it was not intentional.

[ioan]

Kubica 3rd in a brilliant race ( although he should have finished 2nd)

He made a mistake and paid for it. 3rd is what he deserved today.

[ioan]

Lost that one... Vettel just admitted on German tv that it was indeed his fault and that he just lost the car, but that it was not intentional.

Kudos to him. This will silence a couple of his haters at least (some of them may only be silenced with extreme methods).

[VkmSpouge]

Very good result for Mark Webber and Lewis Hamilton, they've made a break in the championship. Hamilton did a good drive though was very lucky not to damage his car when he went off.
Robert Kubica should be disappointed with not getting second, his mistake at the pitstop cost him that in otherwise a good race for him.
Good drive by Adrian Sutil too to take 5th place.
Virgins cost themselves a chance to beat Lotus with a few tactical gambles that did not pay off.
Jenson Button very unfortunate to be taken out by Sebastian Vettel, serious damage to both their championship chances. Fernando Alonso's chance also suffering.

[wedge]

Kudos to him. This will silence a couple of his haters at least (some of them may only be silenced with extreme methods).

LOL!

Again, more questions being asked of Vettel as a racer, racing within the top 3

[SGWilko]

Why exaggerate? He only needs to be more patient, which is much easier than trying to become a very fast racer.

You missed the tongue in cheek comment ioan. :)

[UltimateDanGTR]

exciting and unpredictable race today-good fun.

as for the Vettel on Button incident, it was clearly Vettel's fault (Ill be amazed if someone disagrees with that :D ) and I question his race craft again, but at least he admits it was his own mistake, kudos for his honesty. He and alonso have done alot this year to throw themselves out of the championship title fight, but hey, it's all still to play for.

[wedge]

Button definitely veered left in the braking zone

Surprised Vettel didn't throw his toys out. All credit to him. Most other drivers including Button (Koby/Brazil 2009) would've complained.

Surprised DC laid full blame on Vettel as he was a moaner of those who moved in the braking zone.

[ioan]

You missed the tongue in cheek comment ioan. :)

Sorry! :)

[ioan]

Button definitely veered left in the braking zone

Surprised Vettel didn't throw his toys out. All credit to him. Most other drivers including Button (Koby/Brazil 2009) would've complained.

Surprised DC laid full blame on Vettel as he was a moaner of those who moved in the braking zone.

DC should never open his mouth about other drivers, during his last 3 seasons he was the most dangerous driver on track.

[motetarip]

Fair play to Vettel for saying sorry

[ioan]

exciting and unpredictable race today-good fun.

as for the Vettel on Button incident, it was clearly Vettel's fault (Ill be amazed if someone disagrees with that :D ) and I question his race craft again, but at least he admits it was his own mistake, kudos for his honesty. He and alonso have done alot this year to throw themselves out of the championship title fight, but hey, it's all still to play for.

How many mechanical related problems for Vettel while leading the race this season?
He sure made mistakes but if it wasn't for exploding wheels and brakes he would lead the championship.
Still some armchair expert questions his race craft! Good joke! :laugh:

[steveaki13]

I enjoyed todays race, but I don't think Vettel should have been penalised for the incident.

He only made a mistake, and I know it cost Button, but this happens in racing, Alonso made a similar mistake and only by luck was no one crashed into by him, yet he doesn't get a penalty.

I really feel the stewards should only penalise drivers for delibarate or very dangerous moves. Not mistakes.

IMO.

[ioan]

I enjoyed todays race, but I don't think Vettel should have been penalised for the incident.

He only made a mistake, and I know it cost Button, but this happens in racing, Alonso made a similar mistake and only by luck was no one crashed into by him, yet he doesn't get a penalty.

I really feel the stewards should only penalise drivers for delibarate or very dangerous moves. Not mistakes.

IMO.

The stewards should buy a truckload of common sense. But I won't hold my breath on this.

Why should any driver try hard if the there is a 50% chance to get a penalty for racing hard?!

[wedge]

Still some armchair expert questions his race craft! Good joke! :laugh:

Still, a host of ex-F1 drivers pointed the finger at Vettel in Turkey.

[steveaki13]

The stewards should buy a truckload of common sense. But I won't hold my breath on this.

Why should any driver try hard if the there is a 50% chance to get a penalty for racing hard?!

Agree :up:

[Garry Walker]

How many mechanical related problems for Vettel while leading the race this season?


2.
But he is not the only one to have had car problems this year. Others have had them too.
Not even you can deny that Vettel has made just a truckload of errors and has ruined what has clearly been the quickest car.

[steveaki13]

Also if Vettel got a penalty for his MISTAKE.

Then Liuzzi turning in on Vettel should also of had a penalty.

[UltimateDanGTR]

How many mechanical related problems for Vettel while leading the race this season?
He sure made mistakes but if it wasn't for exploding wheels and brakes he would lead the championship.
Still some armchair expert questions his race craft! Good joke! :laugh:

To an extent your rhetorical question is right. Vettel would certainly be higher up the table if he hadn't had mechanical problems in Bahrain and Australia. However, he would also be leading had he not crashed into his team mate in turkey, ruined his own race today, made a mistake at the safety car restart in hungary, made a poor start from pole in hockenheim, be overtaken by his team mate at turn one at silverstone. you get my point.

Its easy to get into a whole world of 'what ifs?'

but laughing at a fellow fan for questioning a driver is a bit rich, especially for someone who is so 'anti-button' with your 'jenson is not a worthy world champion' approach. If that's your opinion of jenson, then fair enough, but don't then criticise fellow Formula One enthusiasts for having similar opinions about other drivers ;) we are both lovers of this sport, and have watched it long enough to know our stuff, we both know all these drivers are way better than we will ever be, but these are proffesionals and we can criticise them for manouvers and mistakes etc and form our own opinion of their ability in comparision to their fellow drivers, that's what fans are. If we didnt do that, there would never be any discussion about the drivers in F1, would there ;)

[steveaki13]

Liuzzi could yet get a point. Aguersauri cut the final chicane in their battle and the stewards are looking at it.

[ioan]

Still, a host of ex-F1 drivers pointed the finger at Vettel in Turkey.

Most of them never been as fast as Vettel, not even in their wettest dreams.

[ioan]

To an extent your rhetorical question is right. Vettel would certainly be higher up the table if he hadn't had mechanical problems in Bahrain and Australia. However, he would also be leading had he not crashed into his team mate in turkey, ruined his own race today, made a mistake at the safety car restart in hungary, made a poor start from pole in hockenheim, be overtaken by his team mate at turn one at silverstone. you get my point.

Its easy to get into a whole world of 'what ifs?'

but laughing at a fellow fan for questioning a driver is a bit rich, especially for someone who is so 'anti-button' with your 'jenson is not a worthy world champion' approach. If that's your opinion of jenson, then fair enough, but don't then criticise fellow Formula One enthusiasts for having similar opinions about other drivers ;) we are both lovers of this sport, and have watched it long enough to know our stuff, we both know all these drivers are way better than we will ever be, but these are proffesionals and we can criticise them for manouvers and mistakes etc and form our own opinion of their ability in comparision to their fellow drivers, that's what fans are. If we didnt do that, there would never be any discussion about the drivers in F1, would there ;)

Are we talking about the same Jenson who lately as been 1 second/lap slower than his team mate?!

[ioan]

2.
But he is not the only one to have had car problems this year. Others have had them too.
Not even you can deny that Vettel has made just a truckload of errors and has ruined what has clearly been the quickest car.

He sure made errors, but who didn't?!

[UltimateDanGTR]

Are we talking about the same Jenson who lately as been 1 second/lap slower than his team mate?!

yes we are, and you have proved my point-you have formed an opinion of jenson, that he is not as good as his team mate and that as you have said doesn't deserve to be world champion. Im not disputing your opinion, what I'm disputing is the fact that you laugh at others for forming an opinion of other drivers when you do it yourself, just because i have never raced in formula one. Needless to say, neither have you. ;)

[F1boat]

Button BTW had a front wing issue, hence the bad laptimes.

[wedge]

Most of them never been as fast as Vettel, not even in their wettest dreams.

Being quick is one thing, overtaking is another

[Valve Bounce]

Most of them never been as fast as Vettel, not even in their wettest dreams.

Now, now!! you are tempting fate again. pino will not be pleased.

Trouble is, being fast is one thing, but ending up as a Kamikaze is not the best way to be fast.

[Valve Bounce]

Button BTW had a front wing issue, hence the bad laptimes.

There was this funning thing hanging on the end of his front wing that Martin said it looked like a giant insect.

The changing conditions was a race made for Bunsen and he was unfortunate that he had insects and other critters attacking him during the race.

[ArrowsFA1]

Still, a host of ex-F1 drivers pointed the finger at Vettel in Turkey.
And it seems that people remain critical after yesterday's race.

Lots of people not impressed by Vettel today, consensus is he's still learning and team putting him under too much pressure
http://twitter.com/adamcooperf1/status/22448020877

Putting aside whether he should have been penalised or not for the incident with Button, there seems little doubt that he's making too many errors and these errors will cost him the chance of winning the WDC this year.

Is that the result of pressure from the team, an inability to handle the pressure of a title challenge, or simply a lack of experience?

[turismo6]

Vettel crashed into Button because the conditions caught Vettel out. Button DNF and Vettel continues, Vettel gets penalised.

Barrichello crashed into Alonso because the conditions caught Barrichello out. Barrichello DNF and Alonso continues no pentaly for Barrichello.

Does the FIA look at the outcome of the incident the incident itself?

Does anyone else see a similarity to spa 2004 Button and Baumgartner?... not a lot just a bit.

[steveaki13]

Does anyone else see a similarity to spa 2004 Button and Baumgartner?... not a lot just a bit.

Yer I thought about that.

I suppose people may argue that was a trye failure where as this Vettel lost control.

[Valve Bounce]

Yer I thought about that.

I suppose people may argue that was a trye failure where as this Vettel lost control.

..........or maybe Vettel has been running into a lot of innocent bystanders and this had to be answered for.

[F1boat]

..........or maybe Vettel has been running into a lot of innocent bystanders and this had to be answered for.

I am at loss how Vettel fanboys demand that their wunderboy must always be let to crash into people without consequences. And to the posters who say that this encourages overtaking, screw you. If someone is hurt, all the overtaking in the world will be meaningless.

[ShiftingGears]

If someone is hurt, all the overtaking in the world will be meaningless.

Motor racing is nothing without risk.

[SGWilko]

Motor racing is nothing without risk.

Indeed, but risks are calculated - young whippersnappers who pull crazy violent moves in braking area's and as a consequence, ruin anothers' race need to be given a thick ear.

Vettel will work it out for himself soon enough, until then, he needs little reminders on how to behave every now and then.

[Valve Bounce]

Indeed, but risks are calculated - young whippersnappers who pull crazy violent moves in braking area's and as a consequence, ruin anothers' race need to be given a thick ear.

Vettel will work it out for himself soon enough, until then, he needs little reminders on how to behave every now and then.

Perhaps we can offer him one of StD's knuckle sandwiches. :eek:

[SGWilko]

There was this funning thing hanging on the end of his front wing that Martin said it looked like a giant insect.

The changing conditions was a race made for Bunsen and he was unfortunate that he had insects and other critters attacking him during the race.

Actually, the slo-mo image of buttons front wing showed an insect scarpering off the track out of Buttons way.

[steveaki13]

Actually, the slo-mo image of buttons front wing showed an insect scarpering off the track out of Buttons way.

Yer I saw that. He (the insect) only got away just in time as well. :p :

[ShiftingGears]

Indeed, but risks are calculated - young whippersnappers who pull crazy violent moves in braking area's and as a consequence, ruin anothers' race need to be given a thick ear.


Considering that if he didn't jerk at the wheel he would've simply ploughed into the back of Button (like Barrichello did on Alonso), I don't think attempting evasive action is crazy at all.

As Malllen said, some stewards simply like to dish out penalties whenever the driver who causes the accident ends up better off than whoever they run into.

[wedge]

And it seems that people remain critical after yesterday's race.

http://twitter.com/adamcooperf1/status/22448020877

Putting aside whether he should have been penalised or not for the incident with Button, there seems little doubt that he's making too many errors and these errors will cost him the chance of winning the WDC this year.

Is that the result of pressure from the team, an inability to handle the pressure of a title challenge, or simply a lack of experience?

Goes to show how impressive Hamilton was in his first year, even with minor digressions like overtaking and cutting corners and imploding in the final races.

Being quick is one thing, overtaking/battling is another. You have to have all round qualities to be a WDC, IMO.

[SGWilko]

Vettel crashed into Button because the conditions caught Vettel out. Button DNF and Vettel continues, Vettel gets penalised.

Barrichello crashed into Alonso because the conditions caught Barrichello out. Barrichello DNF and Alonso continues no pentaly for Barrichello.

Does the FIA look at the outcome of the incident the incident itself?

Does anyone else see a similarity to spa 2004 Button and Baumgartner?... not a lot just a bit.

Interestingly, watching the overheads of the RB/FA accident, Alonso has the benefit of seeing all the drivers ahead overshooting and can thus brake earlier. Rubens, being that much further behind, can only see the guys immediately ahead - Alonso et al - and does not realise how slick the track is, and did not have the benefit of seeing the frontrunners run wide.

Effectively, all he saw was the guys immediately in front make the corner, so he had no reason to think he needed to brake earlier.

Not making excuses for the guy, but I reckon that sums it up in a nutshell.

[Big Ben]

Interestingly, watching the overheads of the RB/FA accident, Alonso has the benefit of seeing all the drivers ahead overshooting and can thus brake earlier. Rubens, being that much further behind, can only see the guys immediately ahead - Alonso et al - and does not realise how slick the track is, and did not have the benefit of seeing the frontrunners run wide.

Effectively, all he saw was the guys immediately in front make the corner, so he had no reason to think he needed to brake earlier.

Not making excuses for the guy, but I reckon that sums it up in a nutshell.

plus... he did hit the guy you don´t like... not that it would make any difference... I'm just saying

[SGWilko]

plus... he did hit the guy you don´t like... not that it would make any difference... I'm just saying

There is that too......! :)

[pallone col bracciale]

plus... he did hit the guy you don´t like... not that it would make any difference... I'm just saying

I think this sums it up very well.

If there are penalties for Vettel for a racing accident, as it was not a deliberate collision, then why not, for example, did Hamilton did not recieve a grid penalty for Singapore 2008 after he effectively drove Glock off the road on the run up to the Curva Grande at Monza?, which was just as bad as Schumacher/Rubens incident.

It appears that there is a only a penalty applied if a British steward is involved and it helps a fellow Brit.

Hopefully there will finally be a former Italian racing driver on the stewards panel at Monza to end this pro-British rulings.

Fair is fair, I believe. Otherwise it is not cricket.

[ArrowsFA1]

Goes to show how impressive Hamilton was in his first year, even with minor digressions like overtaking and cutting corners and imploding in the final races.
Exactly :up: Some mistakes are inevitable but it isn't clear that Vettel is learning from his, and that is slightly worrying given that he's well into his third full F1 season.

Vettel crashed into Button because the conditions caught Vettel out...
Mmmmm...according to Christian Horner Button's braking caught Vettel by surprise, which is odd because Button said he'd been braking at the same point in previous laps. Button also said the track was dry ("bone dry" I think he said during the post-race BBC F1 forum) so what were the conditions that caught Vettel out?

[SGWilko]

It appears that there is a only a penalty applied if a British steward is involved and it helps a fellow Brit.

Didn't help JB much, did it?

[SGWilko]

so what were the conditions that caught Vettel out?

Talent ran out on approach to the corner?

[ioan]

Mmmmm...according to Christian Horner Button's braking caught Vettel by surprise, which is odd because Button said he'd been braking at the same point in previous laps. Button also said the track was dry ("bone dry" I think he said during the post-race BBC F1 forum) so what were the conditions that caught Vettel out?

Does bone dry mean it was drizzling?! Watch the replays and you'll see the rain drops.

[truefan72]

Does bone dry mean it was drizzling?! Watch the replays and you'll see the rain drops.

lol, true

Button overreached in that analysis, it was clearly spitting rain when that incident happened

[steveaki13]

Does bone dry mean it was drizzling?! Watch the replays and you'll see the rain drops.

Its on the camera for all to see.

[pallone col bracciale]

Talent ran out on approach to the corner?

Like your man Mr Hamilton at the Lesmos last year?

Or is it different when you are biased?

[SGWilko]

Like your man Mr Hamilton at the Lesmos last year?

Or is it different when you are biased?

Are we discussing Monza 2009 on the 2010 Belgian GP thread?

So be it.

On that occasion, 'my man' Lewis was outperforming the car by some margin. Reeling in the class of the field that was the Brawn.

We all know that the RB6 is, and remains the class of the field, yet the Crash Kid can't keep up.

That aint my fault!

[pallone col bracciale]

Are we discussing Monza 2009 on the 2010 Belgian GP thread?

So be it.

On that occasion, 'my man' Lewis was outperforming the car by some margin. Reeling in the class of the field that was the Brawn.

We all know that the RB6 is, and remains the class of the field, yet the Crash Kid can't keep up.

That aint my fault!

So one man trying too hard to win is ok but another trying too hard is not?

I am not convinced.

That there is no consequential difference between the two, but you think there, is a fault, I am afraid.

A fault which you created.

[Robinho]

i don't understand why people think Rubens hsould also have had a penalty, When he hit alonso he, a host of other cars, and Alonso himslef were off the circuit all having been caught out by the conditions. Rubens was just unlucky that the space he ran into was occupied by Alonso's car.

Vettel managed to go off all on his own whilst the cars in front and behind had no problem making the corner. Vettels error took Button out and himself out of contention.

[ioan]

Are we discussing Monza 2009 on the 2010 Belgian GP thread?

So be it.

On that occasion, 'my man' Lewis was outperforming the car by some margin. Reeling in the class of the field that was the Brawn.

We all know that the RB6 is, and remains the class of the field, yet the Crash Kid can't keep up.

That aint my fault!

Excuses, excuses and excuses again.

Let's be honest Lewis made a mistake in Monza, Vettel made one in Spa, big deal it can happen to everyone.
But then again don't use double standards. ;)

[ioan]

i don't understand why people think Rubens hsould also have had a penalty, When he hit alonso he, a host of other cars, and Alonso himslef were off the circuit all having been caught out by the conditions. Rubens was just unlucky that the space he ran into was occupied by Alonso's car.

Vettel managed to go off all on his own whilst the cars in front and behind had no problem making the corner. Vettels error took Button out and himself out of contention.

That's rubbish.
Racing incident is a racing incident, and is punished only in current F1, no matter if the driver involved is called Button or not.
Why use double standards?!
Most probably because of Button being involved. :\
And then again Jenson himself said that it was just a racing incident.

[Robinho]

So one man trying too hard to win is ok but another trying too hard is not?

I am not convinced.

That there is no consequential difference between the two, but you think there, is a fault, I am afraid.

A fault which you created.

in this case you are correct, Lewis did indeed make a mistake and crashed out at Monza. There is a difference in that he managed not to take out any other cars and he was not fighting for the championship so the consequences of a non finish were not too important to him or the team.

Vettel is racing for 2 championships, was comfortabley in 3rd in what seemed to be a faster car at the time and with about 3/4's of the race left, he should have tempered the agression that lead to his downfall.

Lewis probably should have settled for 3rd(?) at Monza, but the consequences of the DNF were not so serious

[ioan]

in this case you are correct, Lewis did indeed make a mistake and crashed out at Monza.

He didn't manage anything, he was lucky that another car wasn't there to be crashed into.
I hope you do not try to imply that he could have managed to control an out of control car and 'manage' to avaoid another car if it were the case?!

[SGWilko]

So one man trying too hard to win is ok but another trying too hard is not?

I am not convinced.

That there is no consequential difference between the two, but you think there, is a fault, I am afraid.

A fault which you created.

The difference, which I made perfectly clear, is that Lewis was NOT in the best car, but was managing to reel in the best car, by outdriving the car. Being constantly on the edge, a mistake was inevitable.

Vettel IS in the best car, and can well afford to drive within its limits. And still he lives up to his new name - crash kid!

[Robinho]

That's rubbish.
Racing incident is a racing incident, and is punished only in current F1, no matter if the driver involved is called Button or not.
Why use double standards?!
Most probably because of Button being involved. :\

where is the double standard?

Vettel f**ked up, I also think he f**ed up in Turkey and probably should have been punished then too IMO. Rubens went off at the same time as most of the field, punish him for losing control by all means, but to avoid double standards also punish everyone else who missed the corner on that lap.

Do the same to everyone who lost control at the same corner on the lap Vettel hit Button...oh wait, they already did.

its not about Button, nor even Vettel. I like the kid and think he is a great driver, but i do think he has made too many mistakes over the last 2 years. In the Red Bull of the last 2 seasons he well could be fighting for his 2 title this year, but looks increasingly like missing out again.

[SGWilko]

That's rubbish.
Racing incident is a racing incident, and is punished only in current F1, no matter if the driver involved is called Button or not.
Why use double standards?!
Most probably because of Button being involved. :\
And then again Jenson himself said that it was just a racing incident.

Causing an avoidable incident.

If he bided his time, the crash kid would have made the pass without contact.

[SGWilko]

Rubens went off at the same time as most of the field, punish him for losing control by all means, but to avoid double standards also punish everyone else who missed the corner on that lap.

Do the same to everyone who lost control at the same corner on the lap Vettel hit Button...oh wait, they already did.

:up:

[Robinho]

He didn't manage anything, he was lucky that another car wasn't there to be crashed into.
I hope you do not try to imply that he could have managed to control an out of control car and 'manage' to avaoid another car if it were the case?!

no, but he was not attempting to overtake anyone, he was just trying to go at the maximum speed he could and overdrove. There was no-one that close to him that when he lost control he didn't plough into anyone else, from memory he was 2-3 seconds behind Button at the time, rather than Vettel, who was attempting to get into Buttons overalls on the approach to the Bus Stop.

I don't think taht the 2 situations are that alike really, but as Pallone pointed out, Lewis also made a mistake last year as Vettel did at Spa. For me that does not excuse Vettel, any more than it didn't excuse Hamilton, but the circumstances, consequences and result of the incidents were quite different

[SGWilko]

Excuses, excuses and excuses again.

Let's be honest Lewis made a mistake in Monza, Vettel made one in Spa, big deal it can happen to everyone.
But then again don't use double standards. ;)

Facts, not excuses.

[Robinho]

so Ioan, of a driver say they made a mistake, can we chalk up anything to a racing incident and let them off with no punishment.

is "sorry i crashed into you, i made a mistake" an adequate defence? Lets let off Lewis from hitting Kimi in the pitlane, MS from Hungary, Webber from germany last year, and any one else you can think of where 2 drivers come together, as long as the offender says it was a mistake, its ok as long as they didn't mean it

[ioan]

Causing an avoidable incident.

All incidents are avoidable.
Do you want them to race or pansy around being afraid of a stupid stweward's decision?!

[ioan]

so Ioan, of a driver say they made a mistake, can we chalk up anything to a racing incident and let them off with no punishment.

is "sorry i crashed into you, i made a mistake" an adequate defence? Lets let off Lewis from hitting Kimi in the pitlane, MS from Hungary, Webber from germany last year, and any one else you can think of where 2 drivers come together, as long as the offender says it was a mistake, its ok as long as they didn't mean it

Yep, as long as they do not do it on purpose I don't see why racing hard should be punished!

[BDunnell]

Yep, as long as they do not do it on purpose I don't see why racing hard should be punished!

My word, your opinions are versatile from one season to the next, aren't they?

[SGWilko]

All incidents are avoidable.
Do you want them to race or pansy around being afraid of a stupid stweward's decision?!

Ioan, use your noddle, not wiping out a competitor due to your own lack of talent is what I mean.

[ArrowsFA1]

For me that does not excuse Vettel, any more than it didn't excuse Hamilton, but the circumstances, consequences and result of the incidents were quite different
Exactly. The incidents are different :up: and yet there are some who would like us to believe they, and others thrown into the mix, are the same, and it's only because it's Hamilton, or there are British stewards, that the penalties are different. It's a familiar pattern which has returned recently and it usually ends up with the mods having to close the thread :rolleyes:

[SGWilko]

Exactly. The incidents are different :up: and yet there are some who would like us to believe they, and others thrown into the mix, are the same, and it's only because it's Hamilton, or there are British stewards, that the penalties are different. It's a familiar pattern which has returned recently and it usually ends up with the mods having to close the thread :rolleyes:

Indeed, no-one should need reminding that both McLaren and Lewis have had their fair share of penalties since Lewis became one of their drivers.

[Robinho]

Yep, as long as they do not do it on purpose I don't see why racing hard should be punished!

so Lewis in Japan 08(?) when he overshot the first corner, "racing hard" forcing the Ferraris wide, should have gone unpunished as it was a mistake (missed braking point)

and who gets to decide if it was deliberate or not. Vettel was trying to overtake so he deliberatley put himself in that position and then made a mistake. i think the accident was a result of Vettels deliberate attempt, therefore should have gone punished

[SGWilko]

so Lewis in Japan 08(?) when he overshot the first corner, "racing hard" forcing the Ferraris wide, should have gone unpunished as it was a mistake (missed braking point)

and who gets to decide if it was deliberate or not. Vettel was trying to overtake so he deliberatley put himself in that position and then made a mistake. i think the accident was a result of Vettels deliberate attempt, therefore should have gone punished

I think that was last year, but your point about apparent double standards is LOUD & PROUD!!!!!

I recall like it was just last year the uproar over that incident.........

:up:

[Dave B]

Fair is fair, I believe. Otherwise it is not cricket.
And I think we're all painfully aware of just how fair cricket is at the moment ;)

[pallone col bracciale]

I suspect that if there had been as many Italian former drivers appointed to the stewards as there has been British former drivers this season, there would be protests from the fans of British teams and drivers on this forum message board.

I am sorry if this opinion upsets people, but I find it interesting that nobody has considered it as being intrinsically unjust.

[SGWilko]

I suspect that if there had been as many Italian former drivers appointed to the stewards as there has been British former drivers this season, there would be protests from the fans of British teams and drivers on this forum message board.

I am sorry if this opinion upsets people, but I find it interesting that nobody has considered it as being intrinsically unjust.

Well, if the proliferation of Italian ex-F1 drivers who may or may not become Stewards assistants were to dish out the same penalties, would there be an issue with you still?

[Retro Formula 1]

I suspect that if there had been as many Italian former drivers appointed to the stewards as there has been British former drivers this season, there would be protests from the fans of British teams and drivers on this forum message board.

I am sorry if this opinion upsets people, but I find it interesting that nobody has considered it as being intrinsically unjust.

I suspect there would be no protests and it's all in your mind.

You are entitled to your opinion but could you back it up with some facts?

Perhaps you can detail how many people involved in the decision making process this year are non-British? I think that you will find it is 75% at some meetings and 100% at others ;)

So, lets have a list of what decisions have been made this year, which you think are biased and which you think are just.

Then perhaps your opinion, instead of being just that, can carry a bit of weight instead of sounding rather bitter and baseless?

[Dave B]

The other stewards in Spa were Swedish, English and Belgian, just for the record.

[Retro Formula 1]

The other stewards in Spa were Swedish, English and Belgian, just for the record.

Aha, there you go. The Swedish and Belgian representitives were kidnapped and replaced with Nick Griffin and Enoch Powell in face masks. That explains it. :)

[SGWilko]

Aha, there you go. The Swedish and Belgian representitives were kidnapped and replaced with Nick Griffin and Enoch Powell in face masks. That explains it. :)

I think I might even have seen Lord Lucan in the crowd over the weekend as well!!!!!

[truefan72]

no, but he was not attempting to overtake anyone, he was just trying to go at the maximum speed he could and overdrove. There was no-one that close to him that when he lost control he didn't plough into anyone else, from memory he was 2-3 seconds behind Button at the time, rather than Vettel, who was attempting to get into Buttons overalls on the approach to the Bus Stop.

I don't think taht the 2 situations are that alike really, but as Pallone pointed out, Lewis also made a mistake last year as Vettel did at Spa. For me that does not excuse Vettel, any more than it didn't excuse Hamilton, but the circumstances, consequences and result of the incidents were quite different

exactly

usually the argument of the guilty is to show how another person/driver committed the same act however loose the similarity, as if by doing this it magically absolves that drivers' actions.

you can question the punishment (and/or non punishment for Rubens) but you cannot explain away the problematic race craft that led to the incident by pointing out how another driver crashed in another race :\

[BDunnell]

I suspect that if there had been as many Italian former drivers appointed to the stewards as there has been British former drivers this season, there would be protests from the fans of British teams and drivers on this forum message board.

I am sorry if this opinion upsets people, but I find it interesting that nobody has considered it as being intrinsically unjust.

It doesn't upset me at all. I just think it's absurd.

[ioan]

My word, your opinions are versatile from one season to the next, aren't they?

I am not sure what your problem is with open minded people but you already pointed it out twice today that you have something against it. :p

[jens]

It was a great race - basically always either something was going on or was there a build-up phase for the actions - like Button-train in P2 or Top3 racing in front with consistently threatening rain. Actually at one moment I was asking myself whether I'm watching a highlights video, because scenes with action constantly changed. :D

[BDunnell]

I am not sure what your problem is with open minded people but you already pointed it out twice today that you have something against it. :p

What I like are people whose views are consistent enough to be taken seriously and to enable a proper discussion, rather than changing like the seasons. This is very, very different from being open-minded. I suspect that a look back at your opinions as expressed on certain matters in the past compared with now would be... er, interesting.

[pallone col bracciale]

It doesn't upset me at all. I just think it's absurd, tamburello.

You are welcome to that opinion, but I am surprised that you and others apparently think that the appearance of fairness and transparency is not important.

Also, I think it is absurd to end a sentence with a random racing circuit corner.

Evidently this is some in-joke that newer forum members are not private too, but I do not feel it adds to the debate.

Although, if it helps, allow my contribution to be Knickerbrook.

[SGWilko]

You are welcome to that opinion, but I am surprised that you and others apparently think that the appearance of fairness and transparency is not important.

Also, I think it is absurd to end a sentence with a random racing circuit corner.

Evidently this is some in-joke that newer forum members are not private too, but I do not feel it adds to the debate.

Although, if it helps, allow my contribution to be Knickerbrook.

familiarity breeds contempt - I don't give it long before we see the real corner again.......

[ioan]

What I like are people whose views are consistent enough to be taken seriously and to enable a proper discussion, rather than changing like the seasons. This is very, very different from being open-minded. I suspect that a look back at your opinions as expressed on certain matters in the past compared with now would be... er, interesting.

You don't have to take me seriously if you don't want to.

[pallone col bracciale]

familiarity breeds contempt - I don't give it long before we see the real corner again.......

Thankfully the moderator has been kind enough to explain to me why I am the subject of this type of post.

If this is how you treat new members who have different opinions, then I am sorry for you.

However, I would like to point out that it is harassment and once again I am having to ask you to stop.

You have already been banned as a direct result of your attitude towards me. Please do not display this rude attitude again.

[SGWilko]

Thankfully the moderator has been kind enough to explain to me why I am the subject of this type of post.

If this is how you treat new members who have different opinions, then I am sorry for you.

However, I would like to point out that it is harassment and once again I am having to ask you to stop.

You have already been banned as a direct result of your attitude towards me. Please do not display this rude attitude again.

Revenge is a dish best served cold you mean?

Harrassment it isnt, putting fourth my opinion it is.

[Edit]Hmmmm, Yoda like speech was not the intention!

[pallone col bracciale]

Revenge is a dish best served cold you mean?

Harrassment it isnt, putting fourth my opinion it is.

Again, I politely ask you to stop this.

It achieves so little and is unneccesary.

If you have a genuine problem, please operate the Personal Message and keep your attitude towards me, which is both unwarranted and undeserved, off the forum.

It is not much to ask, I hope. I am sorry that you do not appreciate that you are indulging in harrassment, but to me, your apparent victim, you are.

Enough, per favore.

[SGWilko]

Again, I politely ask you to stop this.

It achieves so little and is unneccesary.

If you have a genuine problem, please operate the Personal Message and keep your attitude towards me, which is both unwarranted and undeserved, off the forum.

It is not much to ask, I hope. I am sorry that you do not appreciate that you are indulging in harrassment, but to me, your apparent victim, you are.

Enough, per favore.

I reply to your post, in a perfectly civil manner, but you call it harrassment?

Why?

[pallone col bracciale]

With respect, you use the word contempt in direct relation to myself.

Please stop this unpleasant attitude.

[pino]

Let's stick to the topic thank you !

[SGWilko]

Let's stick to the topic thank you !http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.candydirect.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/500x266/5e06319eda06f020e43594a9c230972d/1/1/1112322-AA_prod_4.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.candydirect.com/mars-topic-bar-36-count&h=266&w=500&sz=51&tbnid=qu4-LPh6MNVdbM:&tbnh=69&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dtopic%2Bbar&zoom=1&usg=__FtAtSuj8Gy9fL4hHq-Mj0kSP41Q=&sa=X&ei=-K9-TJqtMJS7jAfRlpjzCg&ved=0CDAQ9QEwBg

:D

[ioan]

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.candydirect.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/500x266/5e06319eda06f020e43594a9c230972d/1/1/1112322-AA_prod_4.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.candydirect.com/mars-topic-bar-36-count&h=266&w=500&sz=51&tbnid=qu4-LPh6MNVdbM:&tbnh=69&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dtopic%2Bbar&zoom=1&usg=__FtAtSuj8Gy9fL4hHq-Mj0kSP41Q=&sa=X&ei=-K9-TJqtMJS7jAfRlpjzCg&ved=0CDAQ9QEwBg

:D

Man you've got time on your hands. Where did you get that?!

[Valve Bounce]

I suspect that if there had been as many Italian former drivers appointed to the stewards as there has been British former drivers this season, there would be protests from the fans of British teams and drivers on this forum message board.

I am sorry if this opinion upsets people, but I find it interesting that nobody has considered it as being intrinsically unjust.

This is a dumb thing to say here. We have an Italian moderator in our forum, and most of us are happy with whatever pino rules on.

[truefan72]

This is a dumb thing to say here. We have an Italian moderator in our forum, and most of us are happy with whatever pino rules on.

yep

[Retro Formula 1]

That's because Pino is really a closet McLaren fan.

I heard he's changed to Button up Fly's to closer emulate his favorite driver :D

[derHans]

Our pictures of the Belgian F1 GP are now online @ RallyandRaces (http://www.rallyandraces.com) !

Kind regards,
Hans.

http://www.rallyandraces.com.

[Allyc85]

My pics are here :)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/allyc85/sets/72157624892482544/