Indy Grand Prix of Sonoma

[DanicaFan]

Race 13 of 17

Race - Indy Grand Prix of Sonoma

Location - Infineon Raceway - Sonoma, CA

Date - Sunday, August 22nd

Time & TV Schedule - 5:00PM Eastern -Green Flag -5:50PM Eastern -Versus

Course Type - 2.303 Mile Road Course

Distance - 75 Laps / 172.725 Miles

Practice Sessions - Friday, August 20th -6:00-7:00PM Eastern - Saturday, August 21st -2:30PM -3:30PM Eastern - Warm-Up Session, Sunday, August 22nd - 1:15-1:45PM Eastern

Qualifications - Saturday, August 21st - 5:30 -7:00PM Eastern

2009 Pole Sitter - Dario Franchitti -Lap Time - 1:16.7987 / Speed - 107.955mph

2009 Winner - Dario Franchitti

**Note - All times listed in Eastern Time. California is 3 hours behind.

[DanicaFan]

Here is a map of the track layout..

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee236/DanicaRules/infineonraceway_all.gif

[DanicaFan]

2009 Race Summary

Total Laps -75 - Green Laps -68 - Caution Laps -7
Race Time -1:49:23
Average Speed -94.745mph
Lead Changes - 4 among 2 drivers
Best Lap - #3 Helio Castroneves (lap35) -105.156mph (78.8427sec)
Most Improved - #18 Justin Wilson -15 positions -started 22nd - finished 7th

[harvick#1]

and if you think Mid-ohio is bad for the IRL, just wait for this race :s nore:

I'll be sure to not tune in, the IRL has no business racing here as its too tight of a track to do anything. the only way the IRL can save themselves and add a passing zone is the hairpin, but they take the short way around.

[TURN3]

DFan...could you please post your weekly predictions for us all to laugh at?

[harvick#1]

DFan...could you please post your weekly predictions for us all to laugh at?


hes been on the money every race, if he was talking about Power :laugh:

[00steven]

Uggh. Can't wait to get back on some ovals! I like road racing but the IRL doesn't know how to pick em'. Edmonton and Mid-Ohio (in my opinion the 2 worst races on the schedule) back to back? Then throw Infineon in the mix (it's good for NASCAR but this isn't NASCAR) it just gets a little old having this many boring races in a row. I wish they raced at Road America.

[NickFalzone]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[DanicaFan]

Check out Tony Kanaan's car for this weekend's race. It is real nice!

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee236/DanicaRules/tonykanaaninfineon.jpg

[beachgirl]

Check out Tony Kanaan's car for this weekend's race. It is real nice!

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee236/DanicaRules/tonykanaaninfineon.jpg

Color scheme looks like a Penske car. But I like it. It'll just be hard to pick him out from Will, Helio, and Ryan.

[garyshell]

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee236/DanicaRules/tonykanaaninfineon.jpg
http://media.paddocktalk.com/2010/albums/60_Will_Power_T10.jpg

I think there is enough difference that it won't be easily confused.

Gary

[SUBARUTEAM]

yeh - you'll be able to tell the difference because Will P will be leading the race and tony will be racing hard with danica to get into the top 20!!!

(I shouldn't be mean because I like tony)

[Dr. Krogshöj]

Here is a map of the track layout..

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee236/DanicaRules/infineonraceway_all.gif

Aren't they using the chicane this year? That's where most of the passing happened last year.

[DanicaFan]

Here are the pit assignments...

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee236/DanicaRules/sonomapits.jpg

[harvick#1]

Color scheme looks like a Penske car. But I like it. It'll just be hard to pick him out from Will, Helio, and Ryan.

well, Will will be on the pole :p : and the other 2 will be in the top 6 so if TK makes it to the fast six, it can somewhat confusing

[Mark in Oshawa]

and if you think Mid-ohio is bad for the IRL, just wait for this race :s nore:

I'll be sure to not tune in, the IRL has no business racing here as its too tight of a track to do anything. the only way the IRL can save themselves and add a passing zone is the hairpin, but they take the short way around.

I dont' know if they are eliminating that. That said, I think this version of the track is pretty tight.

Some tracks are good for the modern OW race cars.....not this one.

[DanicaFan]

Here is the entry list for the race..

Car# & Driver / Car Name / Team

#2 Raphael Matos / HP DeFerran Dragon / DeFerran Dragon Racing
#3 Helio Castroneves / Team Penske / Team Penske
#4 Dan Wheldon / National Guard Panther Racing / Panther Racing
#5 Takuma Sato / Lotus-KV Racing Technology / KV Racing Technology
#6 Ryan Briscoe / Team Penske / Team Penske
#7 Danica Patrick / Team GoDaddy.com / Andretti Autosport
#8 EJ Viso / PDVSA-KV Racing Technology / KV Racing Technology
#9 Scott Dixon / Target Chip Ganassi Racing / Target Chip Ganassi Racing
#10 Dario Franchitti / Target Chip Ganassi Racing / Target Chip Ganassi Racing
#11 Tony Kanaan / Team 7-Eleven-Dr.Pepper Cherry / Andretti Autosport
#12 Will Power / Verizon Team Penske / Verizon Team Penske
#14 Vitor Meira / ABC Supply Co. AJ Foyt Racing / AJ Foyt Enterprises
#18 Milka Duno / CITGO / Dale Coyne Racing
#19 Alex Lloyd / Boy Scouts of America / Dale Coyne Racing
#22 Justin Wilson / Team Z-Line Designs-DRR / Dreyer & Reinbold Racing
#24 JR Hildebrand / Trans Systems-DRR / Dreyer & Reinbold Racing
#26 Marco Andretti / Team Venom Energy / Andretti Autosport
#32 Mario Moraes / KV Racing Technology / KV Racing Technology
#34 Francesco Dracone / Halkin Jet-LaPasta.biz / Conquest Racing
#36 Bertrand Baguette / Conquest Racing-RACB / Conquest Racing
#37 Ryan Hunter-Reay / Team IZOD / Andretti Autosport
#77 Alex Tagliani / FAZZT Race Team / FAZZT Race Team
#78 Simona De Silvestro / Team Stargate Worlds-HVM / HVM Racing
#02 Graham Rahal / NHR-Quick Trim / Newman Haas Racing
#06 Hideki Mutoh / Formula Dream-Panasonic / Newman Haas Racing

[TURN3]

Interesting observation from the poll on Indycar.com about who's in car would you most like to see on race day. Of the available nominee's and nearly 1000 votes so far, Simona has 40% of the votes and Will 31%. Will is the obvious choice but I found it interesting that Simona has indeed apparently won over many many fans as I think most of us here would expect.

[TURN3]

Not a good day for the racing prodigy known as The Danica! 23rd on the time sheets today (thanking God for Duno and Francheezy) PLUS JR Motorsports wins a pole to further discredit her. Ahhhh, I'm starting to feel bad for her.

Fan, FYI, that is a backmarker in case you truly needed to know the definition.

[Easy Drifter]

It is not Princess Lapped a Lot's fault. She is asking for adjustments to her truck arm and her engineers are confused.

[Hoop-98]

Well she was within 14 thousandths of Simona!

http://i38.tinypic.com/2mzie8j.jpg

[TURN3]

Well she was within 14 thousandths of Simona!

http://i38.tinypic.com/2mzie8j.jpg

I noticed that too Hoop. But you know what? 23rd is 23rd no matter who ends up the car in front of you. When you're consistently 21st - 23rd, you suck. Once in awhile is a bad day, consistently is unbecoming of a professional race car driver and warrants a demotion, loss of pay, and 2 weeks base confinement.

[DanicaFan]

Here are the groups for qualifying tomorrow..

Group 1

#2 Raphael Matos
#3 Helio Castronves
#5 Takuma Sato
#6 Ryan Briscoe
#7 Danica Patrick
#8 EJ Viso
#14 Vitor Meira
#22 Justin Wilson
#24 JR Hildebrand
#34 Bertrand Baguette
#36 Francesco Dracone
#37 Ryan Hunter-Reay
#78 Simona De Silvestro

Group 2

#4 Dan Wheldon
#9 Scott Dixon
#10 Dario Franchitti
#11 Tony Kanaan
#12 Will Power
#18 Milka Duno
#19 Alex Lloyd
#26 Marco Andretti
#32 Mario Moreas
#77 Alex Tagliani
#02 Graham Rahal
#06 Hideki Mutoh

[Easy Drifter]

An experienced driver in a very well financed team against a rookie in a very low budget team with a junk chassis and she still is slower!!!!!!
Although I have very little use for Princess Lapped a Lot she seems to have lost what little fire she had at one time.
Strikes this old fart that it is time for her to pack it in before she either gets hurt or hurts someone else.

[TURN3]

An experienced driver in a very well financed team against a rookie in a very low budget team with a junk chassis and she still is slower!!!!!!
Although I have very little use for Princess Lapped a Lot she seems to have lost what little fire she had at one time.
Strikes this old fart that it is time for her to pack it in before she either gets hurt or hurts someone else.

I know this isn't completely true but, I'd like to think you can't get hurt going that slow.

[beachbum]

Well she was within 14 thousandths of SimonaFrom Simona's twitter, it sounds like her first time at Sonoma and she was getting faster almost every lap. How many times has Danica raced there?

[Hoop-98]

From Simona's twitter, it sounds like her first time at Sonoma and she was getting faster almost every lap. How many times has Danica raced there?

Seriously, do you seriously think i was being serious :) , come on, be serious

rh

[beachbum]

Seriously, do you seriously think i was being serious :) , come on, be serious

rhSorry, I missed the satire ;( My mistake

[Chris R]

Well she was within 14 thousandths of Simona!

]

Even more amazing, Milka is not even a full 6 seconds off pole!!!! She is really improving, before you know it, she'll be contending for 20th!! :p :

[SoCalPVguy]

HOOORRRAY
Princess is 23rd !!! Solid baby !!! Look out rest of the pack - comin' through baby.

Let me beat excuses to the punch: Well, she' just sandbaggin' until the REAL qualifications... Its the engineers fault anyway that her car isn't right...

PS: JR Hildebrand, whom I predicted would beat your girl like a drum is 13th !!! Go, Daddy !!!

[Hoop-98]

Well she was within 14 thousandths of Simona!

http://i38.tinypic.com/2mzie8j.jpg

4 years ago her (DP) time (1.6 0ff the leader) would have been good for 10th. Obviously there is not much comparison to that field with this one, performance wise...

http://i37.tinypic.com/24x00ah.jpg

[Hoop-98]

Of course for the "it's not the car" , well 2007, Franchitti is the team leader, .2 - .3 weight advantage, voila!

http://i38.tinypic.com/157yo3q.jpg

it's a lot of things.

[Jag_Warrior]

It is not Princess Lapped a Lot's fault. She is asking for adjustments to her truck arm and her engineers are confused.

That made me spew some of the muffin that was in my mouth. :rotflmao:

[TURN3]

Of course for the "it's not the car" , well 2007, Franchitti is the team leader, .2 - .3 weight advantage, voila!

http://i38.tinypic.com/157yo3q.jpg

it's a lot of things.

Wasn't that the year she was using the steering rack secretly being "tested"? don't know how much advantage that was but the 2 or 3 events she was using it were coincidentally the only events she was challenging for the front row. I'm speaking from nothing but memory so forgive me if I "mis-remember" anything.

[DanicaFan]

Thanks Sato, you idiot. You just took Danica out of practice.

[beachgirl]

Thanks Sato, you idiot. You just took Danica out of practice.

I think not. Danica took herself out with her-probability move on Sato. If she wouldn't have braked so early, she would have been by. Her bad, not Sato's.

[DanicaFan]

I think not. Danica took herself out with a no-probability move on Sato. And I'm no fan of Sato.

Oh my, you have to be blind. That was clearly Sato's fault for going up into Danica.

[beachgirl]

Oh my, you have to be blind. That was clearly Sato's fault for going up into Danica.

Nope, not blind. Just watched the vid several times as they've shown it.

[DanicaFan]

Nope, not blind. Just watched the vid several times as they've shown it.

Sorry, but you are nuts, Danica was clearly on the inside and Sato moves up into her. That is pretty darn clear.

[beachgirl]

Sorry, but you are nuts, Danica was clearly on the inside and Sato moves up into her. That is pretty darn clear.

You know, you and I rarely agree about Danica (well, never) but we have agreed on other issues. But I have never called you nuts, or any other name, to the best of my knowledge. Bye.

[DanicaFan]

Here are the results of practice session 2..

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee236/DanicaRules/sonomapractice.jpg

[TURN3]

They both suck, whats the difference. Danica ends up exactly where she has in the overwhelming majority of every session all year. Might as well crash out of practice more often and have a valid excuse for being there. Enough is enough, she needs to go. The Cowboy said he wants Indycar to have the best drivers in the World and she does not qualify.

[Jag_Warrior]

The Cowboy said he wants Indycar to have the best drivers in the World and she does not qualify.

I know Bernard has to preach a Sermon of the Day, but he might as well give up on that fantasy right now. From the looks of it, Kimi is about to call it quits on his F1 career. But we all know that the days of former WDC's coming to the states and running open wheel formula cars are over (at least for the foreseeable future). The only "Kimi" that this series will be seeing anytime soon is Kimmy Kardashian... and even she is a big maybe (once that fat burning company stops giving her appearance money).

Meanwhile, I'm "busy" taking a foggy blog writer to task for claiming that Bernie Ecclestone has made an "offer" to Danica Patrick to drive in F1... and Danica is trying to make up her mind as we speak. I didn't even know that Bernie owned a team. :confused: But I guess he's either going to start one or he's going to partner with GoDaddy Bob and fund a seat for her. Why is it that with Danica come people who know not the first freakin' thing about auto racing in general, or F1 in particular?! Yeah, a person who has NEVER won a road course race in her life and who can't get out of the Top 20 in the GP2 like IRL is on her way to F1. Yeah, that's gonna happen. :rolleyes: Freakin' muppet!

Gosh, I SO miss the days when we had legit drivers to discuss! He gave it a half-ass effort and got spanked, but at least Michael Andretti was somewhat deserving of being in an F1 seat. I miss the days when if someone was paid to appear at races it was Joe Montana standing beside Chip Ganassi. Well, nothing good lasts, so just f### me.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled program: Danica still in 23rd, I see. She's probably distracted by having to think about the F1 contract that Bernie had delivered to her lawyers for review.

[TURN3]

I think you took "the best drivers in the World" out of context Jag. Firstly, I don't consider all F1 drivers the best in the World anyway. Sometimes, the best or handful of best are truly just that but every series in their own discipline can sport that claim on occasion. The days when F1 and Indycar where vastly similiar are gone so there really isn't a way to compare. The only true test these days in probably Montoya, whom had top rides in Indycar, F1, and has has marginal success with a mid-level NASCAR team so far. Other than him, it is nothing more than argument food.

Personally, I think Dario is among the best drivers in the world. Over time and in their era's, Al Jr., Mario and AJ of course. Same can be said for Senna, Prost, and of course Schumacher. Hope you see my point. And the bottom line is....if Indycar is to be taken seriously, they need race car drivers and not ride buyers. Danica is nothing more than a ride buyer, same as Milka, same as Takuma.

P.S. I used to get ruffled up when half of the IROC field was made up of NASCAR guys too. Of course, NASCAR guys would normally win the championship in what was bascially a NASCAR race. Again, not really a fair comparison for the other disciplines.

[Jag_Warrior]

Don't mind me. I'm just in a foul mood today.

[DanicaFan]

You guys just keep mocking. We will see during qualifying. ;)

[TURN3]

You guys just keep mocking. We will see during qualifying. ;)


Don't be stupid. She's on reds to START the first round of qualy, what does THAT tell you? Desparation.

BTW, I'll back you up on the Sato incident now that I've seen it. But I also stand by the fact 2 backmarkers coming together doesn't matter...next topic.

[DanicaFan]

The 6 moving on from Group 1 are.

#3 Helio Castroneves
#37 Ryan Hunter-Reay
#22 Justin Wilson
#78 Simona De Silvestro
#6 Ryan Briscoe
#2 Raphael Matos

[TURN3]

Enough about Danica Backpacktrick...she ended up about where she usually does.

How about Baguette? Got clipped right at the very end in a Conquest machine! Credit when it is due!

[TURN3]

You guys just keep mocking. We will see during qualifying. ;)

;)

[SarahFan]

You guys just keep mocking. We will see during qualifying. ;)


2 cannibals were sitting around a campfire eating a clown...

One turned to the other and said "does this taste funny too you?!?!"

[beachgirl]

You guys just keep mocking. We will see during qualifying. ;)

Guess we all did. Did you?

[DanicaFan]

The 6 moving on from Group 2 are..

#12 Will Power
#10 Dario Franchitti
#9 Scott Dixon
#77 Alex Tagliani
#11 Tony Kanaan
#4 Dan Wheldon

[DanicaFan]

It's nice to see Dan Wheldon in there for a change.

[DanicaFan]

Come on TK and Ryan---Let's get Andretti a pole!

[DanicaFan]

The Firestone Fast 6 are..

#3 Helio Castroneves
#10 Dario Franchitti
#77 Alex Tagliani
#12 Will Power
#9 Scott Dixon
#6 Ryan Briscoe

[TURN3]

Come on TK and Ryan---Let's get Andretti a pole!

Now what? What's next buddy?

[DanicaFan]

Now what? What's next buddy?

Im out of options... :(

[SarahFan]

Im out of options... :(

Time to change your username

[DanicaFan]

Time to change your username

Never. She is still awesome. :)

[DanicaFan]

Congratulations to Will Power for getting the pole.

[SarahFan]

Never. She is still awesome. :)

If you were stranded on a desert island which piece of Danica gear or souvenir would you want with you?

[TURN3]

Never. She is still awesome. :)

At what? Failing?

[DanicaFan]

Here is the starting grid..

Row 1

#12 Will Power / 108.337
#3 Helio Castroneves / 108.284

Row 2

#10 Dario Franchitti / 107.752
#77 Alex Tagliani / 107.384

Row 3

#6 Ryan Briscoe / 107.379
#9 Scott Dixon / 107.190

Row 4

#22 Justin Wilson / 107.750
#37 Ryan Hunter-Reay / 107.489

Row 5

#11 Tony Kanaan / 107.230
#2 Raphael Matos / 107.156

Row 6

#78 Simona De Silvestro / 106.644
#4 Dan Wheldon / 106.527

Row 7

#34 Bertrand Baguette / 106.945
#06 Hideki Mutoh / 106.952

Row 8

#8 EJ Viso / 106.727
#02 Graham Rahal / 106.939

Row 9

#5 Takuma Sato / 106.687
#26 Marco Andretti / 106.810

Row 10

#24 JR Hildebrand / 106.612
#32 Mario Moraes / 106.630

Row 11

#14 Vitor Meira / 106.408
#19 Alex Lloyd / 106.235

Row 12

#7 Danica Patrick / 105.751
#18 Milka Duno / 100.741

Row 13

#36 Francesco Dracone / 102.071

[FORMULA-A]

OK I give up. Danicafan you are OTAY with me. In a world gone cuckoo your singular belief and faith in Ms thang is forever. No matter what.

Onward Danicafan ... Onward.

[harvick#1]

damn, if the 2 buy riders werent in the race making a mockery of the series, poor Danica will be starting last.

I dont think I've ever seen a driver actually get worse as their careers move on. with the same car, same tracks, you have to figure it out eventually :confused:

oh and Simona just rocked The Brand again, she's gonna really be feeling the heat if Ganassi or some other wants to help her get a big time ride.

and hats off to Power, what hes doing this year is just amazing, and to think last year he only got to race 3-4 races because of no sponsorship. kinda sad. and who else is sitting to be the next Power waiting for a ride while Ride buyers like Patrick, Duno, and Dracone are miles behind everyone

[DavePI2]

DF Iam not a fan of your driver but I admire your passion and loyalty. It is something the series could use a little more of no matter who the driver , team , track, or car might be. That being said, go TK.

david

[Dr. Krogshöj]

A driver who never drove at Sonoma, without participating in last week's test, puts his start-up team right where Penske and Ganassi are. The story of the weekend so far, obviously.

[TURN3]

A driver who never drove at Sonoma, without participating in last week's test, puts his start-up team right where Penske and Ganassi are. The story of the weekend so far, obviously.

I agree with you on this. Tag has been impressive pretty much all year. They haven't always gotten the results that show it but aside from a stretch in the middle, they've been pretty impressive and have something to build on.

Equally impressive in my opinion was Baguette just missing a transfer spot with Conquest. J-Dub bumped him with a last lap effort.

[Anubis]

DF Iam not a fan of your driver but I admire your passion and loyalty. It is something the series could use a little more of no matter who the driver , team , track, or car might be. That being said, go TK.

david

The line between passion and obsession is very fine...

I can sort of appreciate his enthusiasm, misguided though it may be, it's his unwillingness to look facts in the face that irks me. I'd consider myself a fan of Sato, but I'm not about to deny he's as likely to stick it in the fence as he is to get a result. I'm not about to rename myself SatoFan, stick a lifesize cutout of Taku in my house (maybe crashing into a wall?) and make ludicrous predictions every race, followed by equally ludicrous excuses when said predictions fail to materialise. DF probably does get a degree of undeserved flak on here, and I must admit I'm actually tiring of the constant Danica baiting, but he's got nobody to blame but himself to be honest, as he's painted himself into such a corner on the issue. I'm quite happy to say "for crying out loud Takuma, you idiot!" when he needlessly launches it into the scenery for the umpteenth time, but DF seems unable to post "well she had a poor race to be honest, I'm disappointed". There always has to be an external reason for the poor performance, both here and over in Nationwide racing. He'd get a great deal less grief if he swallowed his pride and admitted she isn't really very good at the moment, for whatever reason, but as long as he keeps digging that hole, people will continue to round on him.

Anyway, looking forward to the race. Maybe I should put a bet on which part of the track Taku is going to crash into this week?! And Baguette for a top ten finish maybe? He's slowly starting to impress.

[DavePI2]

I can certainly understand the passion. With me it isn't always with racing though, college football starts in less then 2 weeks and for me my passion is ohio university bobcat football(hunting buckeyes in 2010). Too bad the kentucky race had to be moved to 9/4. That is a race I always like and would have gone too this year if not for the rescheduling. Go TK and I hope my second favorite vitor(pass at indy in 08 is the greatest I've seen in 47 years)does well also. If alex or simona run well again that would also be great.

[DanicaFan]

The warm-up session is now complete. Man, I was hoping Danica would have found more speed. Again in P23. Oh well, means nothing come race time.

Here are the results..

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee236/DanicaRules/sonoma2.jpg

[SoCalPVguy]

The warm-up session is now complete. Man, I was hoping Danica would have found more speed. Again in P23. Oh well, means nothing come race time.

What a fricken joke... helloo TOP 20 FINISH Yay! I am sure this will be removed.

[Andrewmcm]

Wow Wheldon took a ride there.....

[Anubis]

Glad Wheldon stayed on the correct side of the wall there. What a strange accident.

[Nikki Katz]

Wheldon's accident was weird.
Why is Duno 4 laps down already? I don't think I've actually seen her, is she being asked to stay in the pits a few laps again?
Shame for Tagliani, but some good racing :)

[TURN3]

With this stint going on you can see these reds are making a difference. Thank God for that...

[Anubis]

I can't work out how Duno is so far back either, as even Dracone is just about on the lead lap still. she can't be THAT slow, surely?

[Hoop-98]

http://i36.tinypic.com/2zdoajo.jpg

[Nikki Katz]

Hmm, Duno seemed some way off the track, is there really any need for the safety car?

[TURN3]

What the bleep is Marco's problem today? He's banzai everytime he gets a chance and he's running about 20th? C'mon, that is so Moraes like.

[anthonyvop]

Why did they even bother with painting those yellow lines at the exit of the final turn if they had no intentions of enforcing it? Everyone is ignoring them?

[gerkebi]

Why did they even bother with painting those yellow lines at the exit of the final turn if they had no intentions of enforcing it? Everyone is ignoring them?

That is kind of funky. Must be for the Russell racing school. They start them out with treads and no wings and try to keep them off the wall.

It's funny to watch the Indycars track all the way out to the wall over all the paint.

[gerkebi]

Graham's had a decent day.

[TURN3]

Unreal, Viso - AGAIN and he's a lap down. I honestly cannot believe this series allows such incompetence. I'm not sure if anybody has noticed my dislike of Danica but even though she's slow, she does keep it on the track. My God Jimmy and Keven...get real next year PLEASE.

[Anubis]

So who's going to be the first to make the joke about Baguette being part of a sandwich?

[TURN3]

And that is too bad for the sandwich too...great run for him with that little team.

[anthonyvop]

Unreal, Viso - AGAIN and he's a lap down. I honestly cannot believe this series allows such incompetence. I'm not sure if anybody has noticed my dislike of Danica but even though she's slow, she does keep it on the track. My God Jimmy and Keven...get real next year PLEASE.

This whole race is becoming a joke.

It started with Wheldon (WTF?) and it has continued to make a SCCA Regional ITB class race better behaved.

[TURN3]

And VISO takes out Mutoh...OMG! A lapper out there just moving people off the track and that haven't parked him.

[TURN3]

LOL

[Anubis]

And there's Taku's trademark brainless move of the race...

[Nikki Katz]

Another race, another with all 3 KV cars involved in collisions...

[TURN3]

Car Count - Sonoma:

Viso (4): Hildebrand, De Silvestro, Baugette, Mutoh
Andretti (2): Hildebrand, Moraes
De Silvestro (2): Tag, Matos
Sato (1): Patrick

Team Honors and runaway champs of the year: KV Racing Technology

What a flipping joke.

[gerkebi]

Good God all the dumbass attacks at the end. Nice drive for Power, though.

[TURN3]

Another race, another with all 3 KV cars involved in collisions...


Wait, wait...did I miss one? I seen Moraes get hit by Marco...did he get somebody too?

[beachgirl]

Wait, wait...did I miss one? I seen Moraes get hit by Marco...did he get somebody too?

He was involved in one. It counts in the Dallara Championship Trophy for most parts purchased through the year.

[TURN3]

How did Matos go out due to contact 4 laps ahead of Baugette? He was in front of Sato...possible addition to Sato's count? I don't recall seeing anything at all on the VS coverage.

[DanicaFan]

Danica was running a great race until that idiot Sato takes her out, that's twice this weekend! What a bunch of crap.

[beachbum]

How did Matos go out due to contact 4 laps ahead of Baugette? He was in front of Sato...possible addition to Sato's count? I don't recall seeing anything at all on the VS coverage.Versus was having trouble keeping the "score card" up to date as the backmarkers kept running into each other. It seems in very incident cars other the prime "combatants" would get collateral damage which made following who hit who rather difficult.

They should have just put a camera on each of the KV cars. Then almost every incident would have had TV coverage.

[TURN3]

Danica was running a great race until that idiot Sato takes her out, that's twice this weekend! What a bunch of crap.

A great race? Come on man, look at the time sheets. She was the slowest car on the track outside of Milka and Francisco. Tons of attrition and very wise tire strategy by AA allowed her to move up. Otherwise yet another in a very long line of poor performances by her.

And even such...she had no chance of passing around the outside of 9, stupid of Sato to overdrive the corner because he had the position on her, but what else is new. If anything, I'll give her credit just for trying because lack of aggression is what makes her incapable of running ahead of 23rd. And those are the types of things that happen to people that are actually trying (hence the reason she was even ahead of 5 of the cars behind her...they'd all been off track once or twice each).

[DanicaFan]

Congrats to Will Power for the win.

Here are the results..

1. #12 Will Power
2. #9 Scott Dixon
3. #10 Dario Franchitti
4. #6 Ryan Briscoe
5. #3 Helio Castroneves
6. #22 Justin Wilson
7. #11 Tony Kanaan
8. #37 Ryan Hunter-Reay
9. #02 Graham Rahal
10. #19 Alex Lloyd
11. #32 Mario Moraes
12. #26 Marco Andretti
13. #78 Simona De Silvestro
14. #77 Alex Tagliani
15. #14 Vitor Meira
16. #7 Danica Patrick
17. #06 Hideki Mutoh
18. #5 Takuma Sato
19. #8 EJ Viso
20. #36 Francesco Dracone
21. #2 Raphael Matos
22. #18 Milka Duno
23. #34 Bertrand Baguette
24. #24 JR Hildebrand
25. #4 Dan Wheldon

[beachgirl]

Danica was running a great race until that idiot Sato takes her out, that's twice this weekend! What a bunch of crap.

Don't take it so hard. He won't be at Dover.

[DanicaFan]

Here are the points standings after this race..

Race 13 of 17

1. Will Power 514
2. Dario Franchitti 455 -59
3. Scott Dixon 419 -95
4. Ryan Briscoe 384 -130
5. Helio Castroneves 370 -144
6. Ryan Hunter-Reay 360 -154
7. Tony Kanaan 330 -184
8. Justin Wilson 290 -224
9. Marco Andretti 284 -230
10. Dan Wheldon 269 -245
11. Danica Patrick 259 -255
12. Alex Tagliani 244 -270
13. Raphael Matos 241 -273
14. Mario Moraes 240 -274
15. Vitor Meira 235 -279
16. EJ Viso 215 -299
17. Alex Lloyd 207 -307
18. Simona De Silvestro 196 -318
19. Hideki Mutoh 192 -322
20. Takuma Sato 164 -350
21. Graham Rahal 159 -355
22. Bertrand Baguette 150 -364
23. Mario Romancini 149 -365
24. Milka Duno 136 -378
25. Mike Conway 110 -404
26. Tomas Scheckter 63 -451
27. Paul Tracy 61 -453
28. Sarah Fisher 53 -461
29. John Andretti 35 -479
30. Ana Beatriz 33 -481
31. Jay Howard 32 -482
32. Adam Carroll 26 -488
33. JR Hildebrand 26 -488
34. Francesco Dracone 24 -490
35. Ed Carpenter 20 -494
36. Townsend Bell 18 -496
37. Sebastian Saavedra 15 -499
38. Davey Hamilton 14 -500
39. Bruno Junqueira 13 -501
40. AJ Foyt IV 0 -514

[NickFalzone]

LOL at some of PT's tweets during the race:

paultracy3 (http://twitter.com/paultracy3)
The kv team has hit everything but the helicopter today

paultracy3 (http://twitter.com/paultracy3)
Why would the go to commercial for the last 5 laps of the race

paultracy3 (http://twitter.com/paultracy3)
Will there be argy bargy

paultracy3 (http://twitter.com/paultracy3)
Ohh viso ohh viso , why do u do him that way

paultracy3 (http://twitter.com/paultracy3)
Willy p is runnin the show

paultracy3 (http://twitter.com/paultracy3)
Ohhh tag Ohhhh tag

[anthonyvop]

Danica was running a great race until that idiot Sato takes her out, that's twice this weekend! What a bunch of crap.


Great Race?????

HAHAHAHAHA

[SarahFan]

Just finished watching on tape delay.....

Interesting race .... Will is simply outstanding ...


Versus coverage sucked

[Shifter]

This whole race is becoming a joke.

It started with Wheldon (WTF?) and it has continued to make a SCCA Regional ITB class race better behaved.

Nice reference and true!

BTW as an SCCA flagger I have to take exception to Sonoma's turn 11 flag station. I would have visions of the Krosnoff crash and refused to work there.

[Jag_Warrior]

Just finished watching on tape delay.....

Interesting race .... Will is simply outstanding ...


Versus coverage sucked


Same here. Same sentiments.

I saved the ALMS race - plan on watching it again tomorrow. Wow!!! But I deleted this one as soon as it got to the end. Going by the ticker, there was a massive amount of shuffling mid pack. But the Versus crew was too busy talking about the heart rates of the pitcrew to bother with that. :rolleyes:

And yeah, Will Power is on another level.

[Jag_Warrior]

I don't recall seeing anything at all on the VS coverage.

Odd, that's pretty much what I was saying by the end of the race too. :p : :D

[ShiftingGears]

Nice reference and true!

BTW as an SCCA flagger I have to take exception to Sonoma's turn 11 flag station. I would have visions of the Krosnoff crash and refused to work there.

Is that a light pole at the braking zone for turn 7? (0:43 in)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlH27zcaLMc

That could get ugly.

[SoCalPVguy]

Danica was running a great race until that idiot Sato takes her out, that's twice this weekend! What a bunch of crap.

But you are missing the good news... Danica finishes 16th at Infineon after her 23rd position start - a move up of 7 positions !!!!

That is better than that w*a*n*k*er Will Power (yeah I know the race winner...) who DID NOT MOVE UP EVEN ONE POSITION !!!!

That makes her "The Winner" (with apologies to Bobby Bare)

[Shifter]

Is that a light pole at the braking zone for turn 7? (0:43 in)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlH27zcaLMc

That could get ugly.

Ha, yeah you're right!

Wow the coverage was so bad I'm talking the finer points of track saftey the day after. Mid-pack fights are still fun to watch even if the players aren't in contention to win. Take note, VS director!

[SUBARUTEAM]

my 5 cents worth.

local yellows. we debated local yellows a couple of weeks back. well yesterday we saw indycar try a local yellow - what did you all think? for mine, I think it was extremely risky. Dixon was chasing Power down with 4 laps to go and there is a safety truck on the outside of the corner. I like the idea of keeping the race green but man, if one of those blokes gets hit by a car – we could be talking about a fatality.

Blocking – (& Helio was still blocking at the end of that first stint). However I have to say this – if the Indycar blocking rule was not in place at Somona – there would have not been a single pass on track yesterday. I think its a good rule on a tight road course. Airports might be a different story.

Will Power – while I think his race pace is similar to Helio, Dario, Dixon, & Brisco – he is so quick in qualifying and that is the difference. I don’t think he;ll be any slower then any of the big five drivers on the ovals and he’ll cruise to his first championship. As much as I hate to say this about an Ausi – he fully deserves the championship – he’s really cleaned up this year.

All in all – I thought it was a great race. I watched it on the net and listened to Mike King on Indy radio. Apart from the lack of replays – the coverage was good.

[SUBARUTEAM]

the only sad thing about this season is that Will Power will win the championship in Japan

[anthonyvop]

my 5 cents worth.

local yellows. we debated local yellows a couple of weeks back. well yesterday we saw indycar try a local yellow - what did you all think? for mine, I think it was extremely risky. Dixon was chasing Power down with 4 laps to go and there is a safety truck on the outside of the corner. I like the idea of keeping the race green but man, if one of those blokes gets hit by a car – we could be talking about a fatality.


I am in favor of local yellows but bot in all cases.

What happened there was another example of the ICS safety team not practicing either safety of TEAMwork.

[SUBARUTEAM]

Why is that bad? It's practically in his back yard, relatively speaking compared to the other race venues. Good for him, not so good for the series.

its great for Will - bad for ther series
(mind you - Japan is still 9 hours flight from Brisbane so not really in his backyard)

he deserves the championship

[SUBARUTEAM]

I am in favor of local yellows but bot in all cases.

What happened there was another example of the ICS safety team not practicing either safety of TEAMwork.

How so? They got the car restarted and on its way in less then one minute. what more could the saftey crew do?

I'm simply saying that had they had got the car restarted 20 seconds later, they would have been standing on the racing line.

great for the fans - extremely risky for the saftey crew

[ezhop7]

The only thing exciting about the Indy Sonoma Grand Prix was the start and the finish...basically the race was the Will Power Parade session....thought I was watching F1..no passing upfront......well I guess KV kept the spice up but their crew members will have another week of car repairs.

[anthonyvop]

How so? They got the car restarted and on its way in less then one minute. what more could the saftey crew do?

I'm simply saying that had they had got the car restarted 20 seconds later, they would have been standing on the racing line.

great for the fans - extremely risky for the saftey crew

Local yellows are for when the cars are off track and not in immediate danger. Trucks on the outside of the corner on track isn't exactly safe.

BTW I am against cars being restarted by league officials.

[garyshell]

BTW I am against cars being restarted by league officials.

Why, because your pal Bernie doesn't like 'em?

Gary

[SUBARUTEAM]

Gary i agree. if you can get the thing refired - why not do it.

[anthonyvop]

I am against it because racing is a team sport and the car should only be touched by team members. Outside help should be verbotten!!!

BTW In certain circumstance corner workers can assist by push starting a car and I am against it as well.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I am in favor of local yellows but bot in all cases.

What happened there was another example of the ICS safety team not practicing either safety of TEAMwork.

I thought the same Tony.

I saw that truck at the hairpin in the closing laps..and I thought "my god, they put that truck out there with just a local?".

It aint the way I would run a rail road....I think it was a dangerous situation. It makes me laugh though, the lack of quick response in Texas to Simona's fire was defended as "we wouldn't want to send the safety team on to a green race track"....but apparently it was ok at Sonoma.

I really wonder if anyone is thinking up in race control...

[Mark in Oshawa]

As for the race..."yawn"......there may have been a good race in there somewhere, but on TV, I saw the Will Power show.

He was dominating....

VS was too much in love with their heart monitors and other assorted BS. I guess giving us mid pack battles would kill them?

As for Danica, well, she managed to stay out of trouble until Sato found her..and the minute I saw it, I knew DF would be outraged...but hey, this is what happens when you qualify second last JUST ahead of Milka.

You need to soar with the Eagles on qualifying day to avoid the turkey's in the race...

[Lousada]

I really wonder if anyone is thinking up in race control...

Yeah, I wonder the same thing. On the one hand they are extremely anal about blocking (see Edmonton and Indy), on the other hand they allow punting eachother and even plain simple destruction derby. What Marco did to JR Hildebrand would result in severe penalties in about every other serious racing series. But in Indycar they just let him continue his rampage through the field.

[Jag_Warrior]

Yeah, I wonder the same thing. On the one hand they are extremely anal about blocking (see Edmonton and Indy), on the other hand they allow punting eachother and even plain simple destruction derby. What Marco did to JR Hildebrand would result in severe penalties in about every other serious racing series. But in Indycar they just let him continue his rampage through the field.

+1

That's the part that makes no sense to me. No wonder they want the new car to have protection around the rear wheels. From what I saw Sunday, they need to fit them with nerf bars too. What's the point of having (arbitrarily enforced) blocking rules when you allow them to play bumper cars? I'm not against a little wheel banging (I think F1 goes too far sometimes). But what little I could see of the action (thanks Versus), that was worse than what you'd see in Star Mazda or Atlantics.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Yeah, I wonder the same thing. On the one hand they are extremely anal about blocking (see Edmonton and Indy), on the other hand they allow punting eachother and even plain simple destruction derby. What Marco did to JR Hildebrand would result in severe penalties in about every other serious racing series. But in Indycar they just let him continue his rampage through the field.

yup...I saw that wrecks and saw people moving over on people all the time on a narrow track..no call..yet on a 200 foot wide runway a slight wobble on HCN and boom, out comes the black flag.

[anthonyvop]

yup...I saw that wrecks and saw people moving over on people all the time on a narrow track..no call..yet on a 200 foot wide runway a slight wobble on HCN and boom, out comes the black flag.

In reaction to all the negative press from Edmonton they have gone way over to the other side and pretty much let them crash and bump each other into oblivion.

Typical of an organization that hasn't had an original thought since TG came up with the idea of the IRL to begin with. All they do is react...never innovate.

[TURN3]

In reaction to all the negative press from Edmonton they have gone way over to the other side and pretty much let them crash and bump each other into oblivion.

Typical of an organization that hasn't had an original thought since TG came up with the idea of the IRL to begin with. All they do is react...never innovate.

I was wondering...have you ever had 1 single positive comment on this forum, ever? If so, please feel free to post it again so you quit looking like an ass.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I was wondering...have you ever had 1 single positive comment on this forum, ever? If so, please feel free to post it again so you quit looking like an ass.

He might had one once.

On this one though, I think Tony's point is very valid. BB took such a roasting that he is now having a nap when they wreck each other.

Personally, I am for him to continue napping....because we all know he isn't qualified to do the job he has...

[call_me_andrew]

As for the race..."yawn"......there may have been a good race in there somewhere, but on TV, I saw the Will Power show.

I think I saw a couple of passes this year. That was almost special.

[anthonyvop]

I was wondering...have you ever had 1 single positive comment on this forum, ever? If so, please feel free to post it again so you quit looking like an ass.

I have made plenty of "positive" comments.

In fact here is another one.

I am positive that I am right!

Happy now?

[ezhop7]

The positive of the Sonoma GP is that Will Power and the Penske crew continued their dominance on road courses....Kudos to them. Most of the accidents were racing accidents......I didn't see blatant punt them out of the way wrecks...see Nationwide Kyle Busch act at Bristol.

I believe that the Indycar show is entertaining on street courses, short ovals and 1.5 to 2 mile tracks, but on the road courses the show has not been that entertaining.....some tracks configuration may be part of the problem with few passing zones and no fault to Team Penske and Target-Ganassi the other teams just have not been competitive......Is it driver talent (Yes and No) Justin Wilson is just as talented as Will on road courses,but DR does not spend like Penske to win. Ovals... Target-Ganassi has the advantage, but I think Will Power will win the over-all crown.......just get top 5s.

[glauistean]

This forum really cracks me up. Whining bit***** and moaning are a constant. Mark in Oshawa seems to be so egocentric that no matter what he says he probably believes it to be the truth, the whole truth but help me.... Oh yeah, someone else said that. MDS, the same.

There is the bashing of Anthony and the ban master of forums Mr Moderator, the one and only person that bans a person for uttering a non-word. For example **** or **** are according to the moderator ,words. No, they are not. It is up to the person reading the post to interpret for themselves what the asterisk means. Not for the moderator to ban for what "he/she" believes to be a word. Fork? or cent? Hmmm. Gosh, I enjoy Jag and the old Paper wherever he is.

Now as far as the race in Sonoma. Like all the others. Crap! Penske and Ganassi. Billionaires playing around with millionaires.

You can all cry and moan all you want about Brian Barndoor but he is still there and will be next year.

Cotman is good because Robin Miller says so. Any other CART, CHAMPCAR fans here that recall some of the dubious calls he made?

This series is a joke. The insular thinking is a joke. The fact that drivers from across the pond come here is because they can probably make a few hundred grand a year in a series they can quickly learn. That is if they don't get killed. No one in Europe where racing really counts cares a hoot about IndyCar and the sooner you all realize that the better. GP2 has higher ratings than NASCAR and the WRC .... close to F1. Throw in DTM and you have how many series that are watched more than INDYCAR.
I hope some of you travelers that have gone to Surfers Paradise know that the Indy race was second fiddle although top billing. No one really cared. The sanction fee was great but the actual paying sitting in the stands to watch was a great deal smaller than we were lead to believe. It was akin to going to Six Flags. The big rides get the attention,but the large volume of people who pay at the entrance are all over the place.

Danica Patrick...who is she? Helio Castro-neves Castroneves, who? Dario Franchitti(sic) who? Oh, the guy married to Ashley Judd. Dan Wheldon?

In the midst of these is a real racer. Unassuming and potentially, if he were born with a silver spoon, a F1 champ. Justin Wilson. Has proven he can drive anything thrown at him. Eddie Jordan was totally dismayed when he could not fit him into his already designed car when Jag took Justin and ruined his career. Justin went about his business as he always does. Only name that people on the other side would know.

Read the Gordon Kirby article on Conor Daly and see where Derek Daly is steering him. Certainly not Indycar racing.

These cars need to be updated every second year. They are ugly. Penske with his 400,000 square foot complex in the Carolinas is laughing all the way to the bank with what he has. So too is Ganassi and if Kalkoven and Vasser along with Andretti really wanted to be at the front they would hire drivers that could race. Not pose. Tony is past his prime.

The real people that deserve to be in the series are the Dale Coynes and the HVM's. The Conquests and the Dreyer and Reinbold. They at least make an effort. And they are sometimes rewarded. Simona De Silvestro is a shining light and this year she has been phenomenal. How many times has the Princess been in front of her on a road,street or natural terrain course? Once, twice? I'll bet that on each occasion she was behind Patrick was because someone else screwed up her day like last Sunday.

By the way. Could you imagine the press and TV if the Princess and not Simona were the one stuck in the car when it was on fire. All day everyday news for a week. By the way. Someone should find out who the guy was that stuck himself into the flames but so far I have never heard him mentioned. That was one brave dude. I have tried in vain.

New cars, new rules, affordable racing and no comparisons to other race series. Leave it an American series and NOT the fastest drivers and cars in the world. Reminds me of the Baseball World Series when it is only teams from the US and Canada that participate. Or the Indy 500 being the biggest most viewed race in the world. No , it is not. The friggin Turkish GP has more eyeballs on it than the entire season of Indycar, thanks to Tony George.

Chicagoland is this weekend. I hope it is a decent race with maybe Tags up front with Simona, Sarah and Justin.

[Mark in Oshawa]

This forum really cracks me up. Whining bit***** and moaning are a constant. Mark in Oshawa seems to be so egocentric that no matter what he says he probably believes it to be the truth, the whole truth but help me.... Oh yeah, someone else said that. MDS, the same.

There is the bashing of Anthony and the ban master of forums Mr Moderator, the one and only person that bans a person for uttering a non-word. For example **** or **** are according to the moderator ,words. No, they are not. It is up to the person reading the post to interpret for themselves what the asterisk means. Not for the moderator to ban for what "he/she" believes to be a word. Fork? or cent? Hmmm. Gosh, I enjoy Jag and the old Paper wherever he is.

Now as far as the race in Sonoma. Like all the others. Crap! Penske and Ganassi. Billionaires playing around with millionaires.

You can all cry and moan all you want about Brian Barndoor but he is still there and will be next year.

Cotman is good because Robin Miller says so. Any other CART, CHAMPCAR fans here that recall some of the dubious calls he made?

This series is a joke. The insular thinking is a joke. The fact that drivers from across the pond come here is because they can probably make a few hundred grand a year in a series they can quickly learn. That is if they don't get killed. No one in Europe where racing really counts cares a hoot about IndyCar and the sooner you all realize that the better. GP2 has higher ratings than NASCAR and the WRC .... close to F1. Throw in DTM and you have how many series that are watched more than INDYCAR.
I hope some of you travelers that have gone to Surfers Paradise know that the Indy race was second fiddle although top billing. No one really cared. The sanction fee was great but the actual paying sitting in the stands to watch was a great deal smaller than we were lead to believe. It was akin to going to Six Flags. The big rides get the attention,but the large volume of people who pay at the entrance are all over the place.

Danica Patrick...who is she? Helio Castro-neves Castroneves, who? Dario Franchitti(sic) who? Oh, the guy married to Ashley Judd. Dan Wheldon?

In the midst of these is a real racer. Unassuming and potentially, if he were born with a silver spoon, a F1 champ. Justin Wilson. Has proven he can drive anything thrown at him. Eddie Jordan was totally dismayed when he could not fit him into his already designed car when Jag took Justin and ruined his career. Justin went about his business as he always does. Only name that people on the other side would know.

Read the Gordon Kirby article on Conor Daly and see where Derek Daly is steering him. Certainly not Indycar racing.

These cars need to be updated every second year. They are ugly. Penske with his 400,000 square foot complex in the Carolinas is laughing all the way to the bank with what he has. So too is Ganassi and if Kalkoven and Vasser along with Andretti really wanted to be at the front they would hire drivers that could race. Not pose. Tony is past his prime.

The real people that deserve to be in the series are the Dale Coynes and the HVM's. The Conquests and the Dreyer and Reinbold. They at least make an effort. And they are sometimes rewarded. Simona De Silvestro is a shining light and this year she has been phenomenal. How many times has the Princess been in front of her on a road,street or natural terrain course? Once, twice? I'll bet that on each occasion she was behind Patrick was because someone else screwed up her day like last Sunday.

By the way. Could you imagine the press and TV if the Princess and not Simona were the one stuck in the car when it was on fire. All day everyday news for a week. By the way. Someone should find out who the guy was that stuck himself into the flames but so far I have never heard him mentioned. That was one brave dude. I have tried in vain.

New cars, new rules, affordable racing and no comparisons to other race series. Leave it an American series and NOT the fastest drivers and cars in the world. Reminds me of the Baseball World Series when it is only teams from the US and Canada that participate. Or the Indy 500 being the biggest most viewed race in the world. No , it is not. The friggin Turkish GP has more eyeballs on it than the entire season of Indycar, thanks to Tony George.

Chicagoland is this weekend. I hope it is a decent race with maybe Tags up front with Simona, Sarah and Justin.

You spend all that time on a tirade ripping Indy car..and then in the last sentence, become a fan again.

You either hate this series or love it. Make up your mind. As for my ego, it is fine, it can take the bruising you insist I need...but the stupid thing is, half of your rant I agree with at least partially. I don't know why I am all the sudden your enemy man....but if you get your kicks, well Hey, I can be the pinyata.

I survived "the Real McCoy" for years and his abuse....I can survive you....

[beachbum]

When there was no passing (and very few attempts) on road courses, everyone complained. When conditions allowed passing (or at least the hope of getting by), many of the same people complain. I have decided that some people will never like the IRL for their own personal reasons.

When the cars are so close in lap times, passing is never going to be easy. But Firestone learned a lesson from F1 and used the option tires to make it possible. The options were much faster than the prime when new, but much slower when worn (or worn to the cord as in Helio's case). This caused a speed disparity that changed during the race and the hope of a pass. IMHO, that fact that many of the "passes" didn't end up well shows just how desperate all race drivers want to beat the other "guy".

I am not sure which driver said it (Dario perhaps), but they made an interesting comment. They could see that the tires had gone off on the car ahead and thought they had an opening to pass. But when they made the move, they found their tires were just as bad, resulting in a very "exciting" situation. They also said said the fronts would be ok at the start of a lap, and gone part way through. Since the fronts were wearing out first, any out braking maneuver had all of the ingredients for a disaster.

So, do we want a procession, or some method to create a speed disparity to allow passing? Even F1 has shown you can play with the technical aspects all you want, but in the end, something that changes during the event (like tires) provides more potential. Even NASCAR has learned that tire drop off is a great method to produce better racing as some drivers have new tires, some have good tires, and some are worn out. Frankly, I like the option tire that is fast but falls off quickly.

Sure there were bone-headed moves. Not the mention names, but do the KV drivers practice at the local demo derby? But as a fan, I would rather see drivers at least trying to pass than the "after you, no after you" type "racing" we had seen in the past.

[Anubis]

Does anyone have hard and fast numbers for GP2 ratings? From my UK perspective, it always seems to have been buried on Eurosport and therefore prone to somewhat Gallic scheduling. Coverage seems to peak and trough. Even with Hamilton to the fore a few years ago, it was very hard to find mainstream coverage without cable / satellite access, so I'm not sure it should be held up as a shining light. I'm not convinced many F1 fans could name anyone in GP2 to be honest. It seems to be a decent jumping off point to ICS (Conway, Viso etc), but Baguette's performances thus far suggest FR3.5 has some talent as well. There's also the Superleague dark horse. Not a fan of the concept, and the coverage is even more obscure than GP2, but the cars are plenty quick (750bhp?) and look the part to my eyes, so will be interesting to see if any drivers start to filter upwards.

[Chris R]

This forum really cracks me up. Whining bit***** and moaning are a constant. Mark in Oshawa seems to be so egocentric that no matter what he says he probably believes it to be the truth, the whole truth but help me.... Oh yeah, someone else said that. MDS, the same.

There is the bashing of Anthony and the ban master of forums Mr Moderator, the one and only person that bans a person for uttering a non-word. For example **** or **** are according to the moderator ,words. No, they are not. It is up to the person reading the post to interpret for themselves what the asterisk means. Not for the moderator to ban for what "he/she" believes to be a word. Fork? or cent? Hmmm. Gosh, I enjoy Jag and the old Paper wherever he is.

Now as far as the race in Sonoma. Like all the others. Crap! Penske and Ganassi. Billionaires playing around with millionaires.

You can all cry and moan all you want about Brian Barndoor but he is still there and will be next year.

Cotman is good because Robin Miller says so. Any other CART, CHAMPCAR fans here that recall some of the dubious calls he made?

This series is a joke. The insular thinking is a joke. The fact that drivers from across the pond come here is because they can probably make a few hundred grand a year in a series they can quickly learn. That is if they don't get killed. No one in Europe where racing really counts cares a hoot about IndyCar and the sooner you all realize that the better. GP2 has higher ratings than NASCAR and the WRC .... close to F1. Throw in DTM and you have how many series that are watched more than INDYCAR.
I hope some of you travelers that have gone to Surfers Paradise know that the Indy race was second fiddle although top billing. No one really cared. The sanction fee was great but the actual paying sitting in the stands to watch was a great deal smaller than we were lead to believe. It was akin to going to Six Flags. The big rides get the attention,but the large volume of people who pay at the entrance are all over the place.

Danica Patrick...who is she? Helio Castro-neves Castroneves, who? Dario Franchitti(sic) who? Oh, the guy married to Ashley Judd. Dan Wheldon?

In the midst of these is a real racer. Unassuming and potentially, if he were born with a silver spoon, a F1 champ. Justin Wilson. Has proven he can drive anything thrown at him. Eddie Jordan was totally dismayed when he could not fit him into his already designed car when Jag took Justin and ruined his career. Justin went about his business as he always does. Only name that people on the other side would know.

Read the Gordon Kirby article on Conor Daly and see where Derek Daly is steering him. Certainly not Indycar racing.

These cars need to be updated every second year. They are ugly. Penske with his 400,000 square foot complex in the Carolinas is laughing all the way to the bank with what he has. So too is Ganassi and if Kalkoven and Vasser along with Andretti really wanted to be at the front they would hire drivers that could race. Not pose. Tony is past his prime.

The real people that deserve to be in the series are the Dale Coynes and the HVM's. The Conquests and the Dreyer and Reinbold. They at least make an effort. And they are sometimes rewarded. Simona De Silvestro is a shining light and this year she has been phenomenal. How many times has the Princess been in front of her on a road,street or natural terrain course? Once, twice? I'll bet that on each occasion she was behind Patrick was because someone else screwed up her day like last Sunday.

By the way. Could you imagine the press and TV if the Princess and not Simona were the one stuck in the car when it was on fire. All day everyday news for a week. By the way. Someone should find out who the guy was that stuck himself into the flames but so far I have never heard him mentioned. That was one brave dude. I have tried in vain.

New cars, new rules, affordable racing and no comparisons to other race series. Leave it an American series and NOT the fastest drivers and cars in the world. Reminds me of the Baseball World Series when it is only teams from the US and Canada that participate. Or the Indy 500 being the biggest most viewed race in the world. No , it is not. The friggin Turkish GP has more eyeballs on it than the entire season of Indycar, thanks to Tony George.

Chicagoland is this weekend. I hope it is a decent race with maybe Tags up front with Simona, Sarah and Justin.

I agree with the meat of your post - but all in all I have to say this forum has a pretty good group of posters... Most of us think we are right - I am not sure Mark or MDS are any more or less guilty of that than anyone else.... Yes, there are some folks here who could use a little lesson in tactfully presenting their point of view - but then again, I have learned to listen to what people have to say without so much concern for how they say it.....

I do not always agree with everyone but I find there is a lot of good knowledge of racing and a lot of frustration about how dysfunctional our sport has become.... To be honest with you, I'll bet that a good number of the members of this forum COULD run Indycar better than it is being run and that is not so much a compliment to us but a note of how bad it has gotten at Indycar... At least Randy Bernard seems to have a clue - but unless he jettisons the old/dead wood soon all will be lost yet again.....

[SarahFan]

This forum really cracks me up. Whining bit***** and moaning are a constant. Mark in Oshawa seems to be so egocentric that no matter what he says he probably believes it to be the truth, the whole truth but help me.... Oh yeah, someone else said that. MDS, the same.

There is the bashing of Anthony and the ban master of forums Mr Moderator, the one and only person that bans a person for uttering a non-word. For example **** or **** are according to the moderator ,words. No, they are not. It is up to the person reading the post to interpret for themselves what the asterisk means. Not for the moderator to ban for what "he/she" believes to be a word. Fork? or cent? Hmmm. Gosh, I enjoy Jag and the old Paper wherever he is.

Now as far as the race in Sonoma. Like all the others. Crap! Penske and Ganassi. Billionaires playing around with millionaires.

You can all cry and moan all you want about Brian Barndoor but he is still there and will be next year.

Cotman is good because Robin Miller says so. Any other CART, CHAMPCAR fans here that recall some of the dubious calls he made?

This series is a joke. The insular thinking is a joke. The fact that drivers from across the pond come here is because they can probably make a few hundred grand a year in a series they can quickly learn. That is if they don't get killed. No one in Europe where racing really counts cares a hoot about IndyCar and the sooner you all realize that the better. GP2 has higher ratings than NASCAR and the WRC .... close to F1. Throw in DTM and you have how many series that are watched more than INDYCAR.
I hope some of you travelers that have gone to Surfers Paradise know that the Indy race was second fiddle although top billing. No one really cared. The sanction fee was great but the actual paying sitting in the stands to watch was a great deal smaller than we were lead to believe. It was akin to going to Six Flags. The big rides get the attention,but the large volume of people who pay at the entrance are all over the place.

Danica Patrick...who is she? Helio Castro-neves Castroneves, who? Dario Franchitti(sic) who? Oh, the guy married to Ashley Judd. Dan Wheldon?

In the midst of these is a real racer. Unassuming and potentially, if he were born with a silver spoon, a F1 champ. Justin Wilson. Has proven he can drive anything thrown at him. Eddie Jordan was totally dismayed when he could not fit him into his already designed car when Jag took Justin and ruined his career. Justin went about his business as he always does. Only name that people on the other side would know.

Read the Gordon Kirby article on Conor Daly and see where Derek Daly is steering him. Certainly not Indycar racing.

These cars need to be updated every second year. They are ugly. Penske with his 400,000 square foot complex in the Carolinas is laughing all the way to the bank with what he has. So too is Ganassi and if Kalkoven and Vasser along with Andretti really wanted to be at the front they would hire drivers that could race. Not pose. Tony is past his prime.

The real people that deserve to be in the series are the Dale Coynes and the HVM's. The Conquests and the Dreyer and Reinbold. They at least make an effort. And they are sometimes rewarded. Simona De Silvestro is a shining light and this year she has been phenomenal. How many times has the Princess been in front of her on a road,street or natural terrain course? Once, twice? I'll bet that on each occasion she was behind Patrick was because someone else screwed up her day like last Sunday.

By the way. Could you imagine the press and TV if the Princess and not Simona were the one stuck in the car when it was on fire. All day everyday news for a week. By the way. Someone should find out who the guy was that stuck himself into the flames but so far I have never heard him mentioned. That was one brave dude. I have tried in vain.

New cars, new rules, affordable racing and no comparisons to other race series. Leave it an American series and NOT the fastest drivers and cars in the world. Reminds me of the Baseball World Series when it is only teams from the US and Canada that participate. Or the Indy 500 being the biggest most viewed race in the world. No , it is not. The friggin Turkish GP has more eyeballs on it than the entire season of Indycar, thanks to Tony George.

Chicagoland is this weekend. I hope it is a decent race with maybe Tags up front with Simona, Sarah and Justin.


wow...that is a very strange post


*and lets be perfectly clear about one thing....it is in fact I that am ALWAYS right

[garyshell]

This forum really cracks me up. Whining bit***** and moaning are a constant. Mark in Oshawa seems to be so egocentric that no matter what he says he probably believes it to be the truth, the whole truth but help me.... Oh yeah, someone else said that. MDS, the same.

You really ought to look in the mirror and read this.


There is the bashing of Anthony and the ban master of forums Mr Moderator, the one and only person that bans a person for uttering a non-word. For example **** or **** are according to the moderator ,words. No, they are not. It is up to the person reading the post to interpret for themselves what the asterisk means. Not for the moderator to ban for what "he/she" believes to be a word. Fork? or cent? Hmmm. Gosh, I enjoy Jag and the old Paper wherever he is.

Oh please, REALLY? If someone meant "fork" or "cent", they would spell it out. There is one and only one reason to substitute the asterisks and you very well know it. Spare us the ridiculous diatribe against Starter who is only enforcing the rules that YOU agreed to when you joined the forum. Don't like the rules, there's the door.

Gary

[glauistean]

You really ought to look in the mirror and read this.



Oh please, REALLY? If someone meant "fork" or "cent", they would spell it out. There is one and only one reason to substitute the asterisks and you very well know it. Spare us the ridiculous diatribe against Starter who is only enforcing the rules that YOU agreed to when you joined the forum. Don't like the rules, there's the door.

Gary

Well done Gary. Pick two points and level them as being the basis of the total post. Your "oh please" is so idiotic for you to comment should give YOU pause. The point was bloody obvious. Geez, do you need a lesson on the semantics that are used in everyday language? The point (for your benefit) was to show how inane some of rules are and stating the obvious. There is not a person here Gary that would have taken the words to mean fork or cent. Jeez man, wake up. There was a point to it and it should be perfectly clear to you. Sorry that you do not get it , but alas, there are always some who don't.

If I leave it will be voluntary or I will be pushed as is the case of some who can't take criticism.

[glauistean]

wow...that is a very strange post


*and lets be perfectly clear about one thing....it is in fact I that am ALWAYS right

Was it too long and that made it strange or was the content strange? Please explain. It would help. Strange is not something I would like to be seen as. :mad:

[glauistean]

You spend all that time on a tirade ripping Indy car..and then in the last sentence, become a fan again.

You either hate this series or love it. Make up your mind. As for my ego, it is fine, it can take the bruising you insist I need...but the stupid thing is, half of your rant I agree with at least partially. I don't know why I am all the sudden your enemy man....but if you get your kicks, well Hey, I can be the pinyata.

I survived "the Real McCoy" for years and his abuse....I can survive you....

Dear Mark In Oshawa, I know you are like a wilderness type, Sarah Palin in Alaska , you in Canada. You can take it. Proud of you.

Bashing something you love but still loving it is not an aberration to the human condition. In fact it is quite normal for one to lay blame and direct it at specific people or parts of an organization that they love because of frustration or seeing something they love fall apart and being unable to do anything about it. Applies to NFL teams, NHL, F1, Soccer (Football) and every other sport. So to complain or bash is nothing extraordinary and I know that you have a thick skin but, you love to leave sarcastic comments to posters.

That does not mean I feel superior in any aspect of this sport or am being a hypocrite as suggested by Gary when he asks me to look in the mirror. Why should I look in the mirror Gary?

Mark, I don't know how old you are but if you are in my range you would see the point very clearly. It is not up to you or anyone else to tell me or me to tell you to stop watching a sport they love because of some flaws you see.
If I don't want to watch anything, be it IndyCar, F1,GP2 WRC or any sport I'll make that decision myself even when I am totally frustrated at what I see.

[anthonyvop]

Does anyone have hard and fast numbers for GP2 ratings? From my UK perspective, it always seems to have been buried on Eurosport and therefore prone to somewhat Gallic scheduling. Coverage seems to peak and trough. Even with Hamilton to the fore a few years ago, it was very hard to find mainstream coverage without cable / satellite access, so I'm not sure it should be held up as a shining light. I'm not convinced many F1 fans could name anyone in GP2 to be honest. It seems to be a decent jumping off point to ICS (Conway, Viso etc), but Baguette's performances thus far suggest FR3.5 has some talent as well. There's also the Superleague dark horse. Not a fan of the concept, and the coverage is even more obscure than GP2, but the cars are plenty quick (750bhp?) and look the part to my eyes, so will be interesting to see if any drivers start to filter upwards.

Drivers enter the GP2 with a goal of getting into F-1 and other series would be a 2nd choice.

The ICS needs to market themselves as an end in itself not a fall back career choice.

[Anubis]

Drivers enter the GP2 with a goal of getting into F-1 and other series would be a 2nd choice..

And yet many of them spend seasons in GP2 only to move to DTM, ALMS, FIA GT, FNippon, even AutoGP and Superleague. Does that undermine those series? I don't think it does*. There may be the likes of Dracone and Duno, but there always have been in every series and that'll never change. ICS needs to position itself to be attractive to the genuine talent that would otherwise consider the above series if/as/when their (possibly idealistic) F1 aspirations recede. I don't see any shame in that, even if some folks perceive them as "no names". Indeed, I know more about Bertrand Baguette now he's in ICS than I ever did when he was racing FR3.5, and I'm far from a casual fan.

*IMO the concept itself undermines Superleague, but that's a different subject. There's some proper talent sat in the cars.

[garyshell]

Well done Gary. Pick two points and level them as being the basis of the total post. Your "oh please" is so idiotic for you to comment should give YOU pause. The point was bloody obvious. Geez, do you need a lesson on the semantics that are used in everyday language? The point (for your benefit) was to show how inane some of rules are and stating the obvious. There is not a person here Gary that would have taken the words to mean fork or cent. Jeez man, wake up. There was a point to it and it should be perfectly clear to you. Sorry that you do not get it , but alas, there are always some who don't.

If I leave it will be voluntary or I will be pushed as is the case of some who can't take criticism.


I picked two points and ignored the rest of the rant. If there was not a person who would read it as fork or cent then what was the point of your tirade against starter? Talk about obtuse. Sorry you can't seem to figure out how to clearly make your point.

Gary

[anthonyvop]

And yet many of them spend seasons in GP2 only to move to DTM, ALMS, FIA GT, FNippon, even AutoGP and Superleague. Does that undermine those series?

In a way it does. None can be considered a destination series.

In the US fans generally don't follow "minor leagues" Aside from college Football and baseketball which have a geographical following nobody cares about the minors.
Baseball, Hocky, Golf ect..all ignored

Indy use to be big because it was suppose to be the best...Not anymore. NASCAR through heavy marketing has convince that their drivers are the world's best...as laughable as that is.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Dear Mark In Oshawa, I know you are like a wilderness type, Sarah Palin in Alaska , you in Canada. You can take it. Proud of you.

Bashing something you love but still loving it is not an aberration to the human condition. In fact it is quite normal for one to lay blame and direct it at specific people or parts of an organization that they love because of frustration or seeing something they love fall apart and being unable to do anything about it. Applies to NFL teams, NHL, F1, Soccer (Football) and every other sport. So to complain or bash is nothing extraordinary and I know that you have a thick skin but, you love to leave sarcastic comments to posters.

That does not mean I feel superior in any aspect of this sport or am being a hypocrite as suggested by Gary when he asks me to look in the mirror. Why should I look in the mirror Gary?

Mark, I don't know how old you are but if you are in my range you would see the point very clearly. It is not up to you or anyone else to tell me or me to tell you to stop watching a sport they love because of some flaws you see.
If I don't want to watch anything, be it IndyCar, F1,GP2 WRC or any sport I'll make that decision myself even when I am totally frustrated at what I see.

News flash, I don't live in the boonies, Sarah Palin is a lightweight, and your dislike of me means nothing.
You rip on the sport. Fine, I did the same when CCWS was screwing up what was left of CART. I get that...so watch or not watch...I don't care.

What I am pointing out is for you to waste all this mental anguish over this and just pure bile and then you talk about watching the race that weekend. I have news for you. I quit watching the CCWS in their final year....never saw ONE race....

put your money where your mouth is, if it is bad, then fine...just don't watch. Comment away, hey, I am for free speech...

Just realize, I aint your enemy bud....if you don't like my opinions, that's cool...you wont be the first one I pissed off on here, and you wont be the last....but I am not backing down when I see someone taking stupid shots without any context or better yet, a better idea of how something should have been done.

[glauistean]

I picked two points and ignored the rest of the rant. If there was not a person who would read it as fork or cent then what was the point of your tirade against starter? Talk about obtuse. Sorry you can't seem to figure out how to clearly make your point.

Gary

Obtuse is obviously a word you are unfamiliar with but feel at ease using it in an incorrect context.

The point was clear and the post articulate. In your case I wil take an insult as a compliment since I view it from one who knows no better. (auld English)

[glauistean]

News flash, I don't live in the boonies, Sarah Palin is a lightweight, and your dislike of me means nothing.
You rip on the sport. Fine, I did the same when CCWS was screwing up what was left of CART. I get that...so watch or not watch...I don't care.

What I am pointing out is for you to waste all this mental anguish over this and just pure bile and then you talk about watching the race that weekend. I have news for you. I quit watching the CCWS in their final year....never saw ONE race....

put your money where your mouth is, if it is bad, then fine...just don't watch. Comment away, hey, I am for free speech...

Just realize, I aint your enemy bud....if you don't like my opinions, that's cool...you wont be the first one I pissed off on here, and you wont be the last....but I am not backing down when I see someone taking stupid shots without any context or better yet, a better idea of how something should have been done.

Hang on there Nelly. I never said that I disliked you. Disliking your commentary on certain issues would be more apropos. As for my spewing "bile". Depends on your definition of bile. I observed and indicated the observations.

I am as happy as the day is long and believe me I do not have any mental anguish at all pertaining to you, Starter or the series in no way deters me from producing sufficient amounts of 5-HT to allow me to view this as a playground in which I can utter my feeling on a SPORT. Something you should realize is all it is.

"As for putting my money where my mouth is". Son, I have spent more on autoracing than I care to recall. I have been involved in negotiations with sponsors and spoken in detail as to intricacies of one very prominent sponsor of the '70's and even added my own company to a number of vehicles that allowed those with a passion to race,race.

So , even though you seem to be concerned (professional observation) as to my dislike of you. Don't be overly sensitive. I don't have any feeling for the name and words of anyone on this particular forum.

Suffice it to say that if this were a thread where one could offer objections and possible remedies then your comments would be significant instead of the obvious.

[garyshell]

Obtuse is obviously a word you are unfamiliar with but feel at ease using it in an incorrect context.

The point was clear and the post articulate. In your case I wil take an insult as a compliment since I view it from one who knows no better. (auld English)


ob·tuse
adj. ob·tus·er, ob·tus·est 1. a. Lacking quickness of perception or intellect.
b. Characterized by a lack of intelligence or sensitivity: an obtuse remark.
c. Not distinctly felt: an obtuse pain.

2. a. Not sharp, pointed, or acute in form; blunt.
b. Having an obtuse angle: an obtuse triangle.
c. Botany. Having a blunt or rounded tip: an obtuse leaf.

You might have felt the post was clear and articulate. Nothing could be further from the truth.



Originally Posted by glauistean
There is the bashing of Anthony and the ban master of forums Mr Moderator, the one and only person that bans a person for uttering a non-word. For example **** or **** are according to the moderator ,words. No, they are not. It is up to the person reading the post to interpret for themselves what the asterisk means. Not for the moderator to ban for what "he/she" believes to be a word. Fork? or cent? Hmmm. Gosh, I enjoy Jag and the old Paper wherever he is.


That was a direct slam on Starter for enforcing the rules when someone tries to get around the nanny filter. Now you want to claim it was something different. Or that the rest of us are to stupid to understand your real intent.

Whatever.

We're done. I couldn't give a rat's behind what you think.

Gary

[glauistean]

ob·tuse
adj. ob·tus·er, ob·tus·est 1. a. Lacking quickness of perception or intellect.
b. Characterized by a lack of intelligence or sensitivity: an obtuse remark.
c. Not distinctly felt: an obtuse pain.

2. a. Not sharp, pointed, or acute in form; blunt.
b. Having an obtuse angle: an obtuse triangle.
c. Botany. Having a blunt or rounded tip: an obtuse leaf.

You might have felt the post was clear and articulate. Nothing could be further from the truth.



That was a direct slam on Starter for enforcing the rules when someone tries to get around the nanny filter. Now you want to claim it was something different. Or that the rest of us are to stupid to understand your real intent.

Whatever.

We're done. I couldn't give a rat's behind what you think.

Gary

Gary son. Obviously you do "give a damn" and I'm quite sure the other member stated "starter" is quite adept at standing up for himself or herself, whatever the case may be.

Was it necessary for you to explain the word obtuse? In fact it made you appear so inane when you did that.

If you are unable to follow a simple post and then have to cry and moan and pontificate about how starter goes by the rules then maybe it is best that I ignore your Neanderthal attempts at insulting me and we will go on our merry way. No ad hominem attacks either. Oh, a word when defined properly only needs one line. No botany,instruments or objects needed to explain simple diction unless you were forced to lok it up as it is evident you did.

[beachgirl]

Gary son. Obviously you do "give a damn" and I'm quite sure the other member stated "starter" is quite adept at standing up for himself or herself, whatever the case may be.

Was it necessary for you to explain the word obtuse? In fact it made you appear so inane when you did that.

If you are unable to follow a simple post and then have to cry and moan and pontificate about how starter goes by the rules then maybe it is best that I ignore your Neanderthal attempts at insulting me and we will go on our merry way. No ad hominem attacks either. Oh, a word when defined properly only needs one line. No botany,instruments or objects needed to explain simple diction unless you were forced to lok it up as it is evident you did.

You sound just like Count Tracula, from another forum. And just as condescending.

[SarahFan]

Funny stuff

[vintage]

Which of the many contact incidents do you think the F-1 stewards would have handed out punishments for? Seems like there were one or two that perhaps deserved a drive through or something, particularly if you put the other car out of the race.

[glauistean]

Which of the many contact incidents do you think the F-1 stewards would have handed out punishments for? Seems like there were one or two that perhaps deserved a drive through or something, particularly if you put the other car out of the race.

Simona got hit twice? Oh, and what happened to Danica? All of a sudden the princess had a wing torn up and from the pics on AR1 she was all animated to her engineer as though she were running at the front and "um, Milka Duno would not get out of my way" waaahhhhh.

It seems and probably justified in most cases that Milka does slow up traffic considerably in most cases. But she is not at fault all the time. Look what Wheldon did.

[vintage]

Simona did some of the hitting as well.

[maxmach]

This......this is an auto racing forum right....not a personel vendetta formum....right.......

[glauistean]

I picked two points and ignored the rest of the rant. If there was not a person who would read it as fork or cent then what was the point of your tirade against starter? Talk about obtuse. Sorry you can't seem to figure out how to clearly make your point.

Gary
You have now used the word obyuse twice with reference to me. Next time I will not be as gracious you amadan.
Your ignornace of what I said and my answer to your assinine response is further proving to me your inadequate concept of the word "obtuse" since you had to look it up was the first tip, but to it's actual meaning you are ignorant to it.

The fact is, the point is clear.In addition to that you are too OBTUSE to even know.

Go lather yourself up with Starter so that you can bash people and ignore the rules of the forum.

"There are none so blind as those who do not see"

I'll explain that to you some other time but I feel that it would be a waste of a good adage and my time.