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52Paddy
9th August 2010, 22:31
Issues include:
Including the South African Formula 1 Series or only World Championship races?
Non-motoring (ie tobacco) sponsorship or including motoring-related sponsorship.
Naming a car after a product: Thinwall Special, Cromard Special?
Naming a team after a sponsor: UDT, Yeoman Credit, Bowmaker Yeoman, Repco Brabham, Gold Leaf Team lotus, John Player Special?
Naming a car after a sponsor: Repco Brabham, JPS?
Size of advertising decals? - remember that Gold Leaf Team Lotus sometimes raced without the John Player sailor or any Gold Leaf or JPS signwriting - just the fag packet colours. etc, etc.

Just to re-direct it from the trivia thread :)

BDunnell
9th August 2010, 22:38
Depends what you mean by 'sponsorship', as intimated in the post. I would personally go for John Love and Team Gunston as having come before Gold Leaf Team Lotus, in terms of when an entry for a world championship F1 race was placed for a car whose livery was predominantly that of a commercial sponsor.

Saint Devote
10th August 2010, 00:12
Depends what you mean by 'sponsorship', as intimated in the post. I would personally go for John Love and Team Gunston as having come before Gold Leaf Team Lotus, in terms of when an entry for a world championship F1 race was placed for a car whose livery was predominantly that of a commercial sponsor.

I'd go with this - at the SAGP Kyalami Jan 1 1968 at least.

ArrowsFA1
11th August 2010, 08:30
By no means complete - no mention of the Warteiner Arrows!! - but here's Wikipedia's list of Formula One sponsorship liveries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_One_sponsorship_liveries)

Also - http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/spon-009.html

Mintexmemory
11th August 2010, 11:13
If you are talking advertising on the car as opposed to the name of the team (Ferrari, Honda etc.) then the first small decals appeared in late 1967. From photographic evidence I would say the 67 Canadian GP, where AAR sported Castrol advertising, was the first example, somewhere else in 67 (I think Mexico) Ferrari had Firestone checkered flag decals. I can't see the Brabham team showing Goodyear advertising during 67 but all the cars had tyre advertising in SA 68

Shifter
11th August 2010, 20:34
Without doing research, just thinking aloud, what about the Indy 500, when it was counted as a part of the WDC or whatever?

D-Type
11th August 2010, 20:48
Without doing research, just thinking aloud, what about the Indy 500, when it was counted as a part of the WDC or whatever?
The Indy 500 was a round of the World Championship but it was not a Formula 1 race.

Vitesse
16th August 2010, 14:28
DSJ on the Italian Grand Prix 1965:

“There was a strange little ceremony in the paddock on the morning of the race when Colin Chapman was presented with two cases of salami (and a pocketful of lire?) in exchange for putting an advertisement for this particular brand of salami on the Lotus that Geki was to drive……..The same was happening in the Brabham team, where Baghetti’s car was also carrying salami advertising, and this was brought about because the Italians have a national rule that permits their drivers to have advertising on their cars, in spite of an F.I.A. rule that forbids it.”

philipbain
17th August 2010, 11:31
Sponsorship on cars, as in total livery changing sponsorship with clear branding, not just a few small supplier stickers, was started by Lotus at Monaco in 1968. Though as has been previously stated in this thread, the encroachment of sponsors into F1 was a evolutionary process, though as soon as Lotus had re-liveried their car in Gold Leaf Colours (Red & Gold) with clear Gold Leaf branding emblazoned down each side of the car, most other teams followed with either their own sponsorship deals or changing their livery to one that did not incorporate national racing colours.

Vitesse
17th August 2010, 12:27
Sponsorship on cars, as in total livery changing sponsorship with clear branding, not just a few small supplier stickers, was started by Lotus at Monaco in 1968.
... apart from Team Gunston, as already mentioned.

http://grandprixinsider.wordpress.com/2008/01/01/comercial-sponsorship-discovers-motor-racing/

D-Type
18th August 2010, 22:08
Well that wraps up the "whole car in sponsor's livery in Formula 1?" - Team Gunston, Kyalami 1968

I believe that it was 1967 when the FIA/CSI and hence all the member clubs allowed decals of a certain size in all classes of racing including Formula 1. can anyone confirm this?

The Mexican Carrera Panamericana allowed cars to display sponsorship. I believe the first Carrera was in 1950.

The Coronation Safari rally allowed cars to display sponsorship from 1956

Mekola
19th August 2010, 04:58
Also many Grand Prix cars during the Temporadas Argentinas of 1948-50 carried sponsors on their hoods. Fernet Branca and Cerveza Quilmes inscriptions were noted on them among others.

Also it's known that Juan Manuel Fangio had a long sponsoring agreement with Suixtil during his racing years.

Don Capps
24th September 2012, 17:18
Without doing research, just thinking aloud, what about the Indy 500, when it was counted as a part of the WDC or whatever?


The Indy 500 was a round of the World Championship but it was not a Formula 1 race.

Although usually pointed omitted or completely ignored by the European F1 fan types, the International 500 Mile Sweepstakes event was a part of the CSI World Championship for Drivers from 1950 until 1960. From 1948 to 1953, the event was run with the contemporary International Formula/ Formula 1 as the basis of the technical rules for the AAA Contest Board's Contest Rules governing the National Championship cars. Although the Contest Board added several options to the technical rules and eventally made the grandfather clause for the use the 3-litre/183 cubic inch supercharged engines from the previous International Formula permenant, thereby postponing adopting the 1.5-litre supercharged engines, so by and large the cars competing in the Indianapolis events held from 1950 thru 1953 met the F1 specifications. Not so much a quibble as explaining that the decision of the CSI to include Indianapolis as part of the world championship was not as far-fetched as some think it was. The decision by the Contest Board not to adopt the new CSI International Formula decided upon in the Fall of 1951 meant that from 1954 thru 1960 the Indianapolis was not an F1; however, that was also irrelevant given that there was no stipulation by the CSI that an event in the WCD had to be run to the International Formula. It was not until the adoption of the formula for 1961-1963 seasons that the CSI made it a requirement that WCD events be run to the International Formula.



Well that wraps up the "whole car in sponsor's livery in Formula 1?" - Team Gunston, Kyalami 1968

I believe that it was 1967 when the FIA/CSI and hence all the member clubs allowed decals of a certain size in all classes of racing including Formula 1. can anyone confirm this?

The Mexican Carrera Panamericana allowed cars to display sponsorship. I believe the first Carrera was in 1950.

The Coronation Safari rally allowed cars to display sponsorship from 1956

In its Fall 1967 meeting, effective 1 January 1968, the CSI allowed advertising on racing vehicles in international competition; or something like that given that various countries had been allowing this for years by that time. There was a total of such-and-such square cm for the advertising logos, decal, whatever. I have that information buried somewhere in my files. This was very typical of the CSI, accepting reality a bit late in the day -- the decals were already there -- and then tossing in some regulations to ensure that it got properly muddled. In the US, the SCCA was about the sum total of those not opening allowing advertising on race cars, although decals had been popping up in the SCCA pro series for some time. Obviously, unlike most here I never got my knickers in a wad over this issue given that racing takes money -- and lots of it.

The Mexican Carrera races began in 1950 and allowed advertising/ sponsorship on the the vehicles.

Mekola properly points out that such advertising was already common in South America.

FAL
24th September 2012, 21:36
The then RACMSA also permitted advertising in its UK motorsport from 1.1.68. A rare instance for the time of alignment of new regulations with FIA (or CSI, FISA or whatever it was that week). 55 square inches was the permitted maximum dimension (in pairs, one each side) for the number of stickers permitted (5?).

BDunnell
24th September 2012, 22:29
The then RACMSA also permitted advertising in its UK motorsport from 1.1.68. A rare instance for the time of alignment of new regulations with FIA (or CSI, FISA or whatever it was that week). 55 square inches was the permitted maximum dimension (in pairs, one each side) for the number of stickers permitted (5?).

Well, I have truly learned something there. Thank you, FAL.

Don Capps
25th September 2012, 01:11
The then RACMSA also permitted advertising in its UK motorsport from 1.1.68. A rare instance for the time of alignment of new regulations with FIA (or CSI, FISA or whatever it was that week). 55 square inches was the permitted maximum dimension (in pairs, one each side) for the number of stickers permitted (5?).

I do not think that I was alone at the snickering at this utter nonsense.... The pomposity of European racing -- and its often dimwitted stepchild the SCCA -- at the time was often a source of great amusement and jollity for many of us.

Rollo
25th September 2012, 03:39
Do you include this:
http://dc400.4shared.com/img/dieybkzF/s7/1952_indy_500_-_freddie_agabas.jpg

Do we include Fred Agabashian's 1952 Indianapolis 500 entrant, was decked out in Cummins corporate colours?

Rollo
25th September 2012, 03:50
I also wonder if something like the Peugeot which won the 1913 Indianapolis 500 should be included, because it was running Peugeot's corporate blue, which it was sort of mandated to by the FIA anyway. It was the same Peugeot EX3 which finished second to Georges Boillot at the French GP a couple of months later.

D-Type
25th September 2012, 10:30
Napier green and wasn't "Bugatti bleu" deliberately selected to be the exact colour of a make of cigarette (Gitanes?) to tie in to an advertising campaign.

I think in this context, Indianapolis should not be considered "Formula 1" as it was a different culture from Europe. "Blue Crown Spark Plug Special" makes sense but I do think the "Sugar-ripe Prune Special" was carrying things a bit far.

Don Capps
25th September 2012, 10:58
"Blue Crown Spark Plug Special" makes sense but I do think the "Sugar-ripe Prune Special" was carrying things a bit far.

Not if you needed to find the funding to field an entry.

As noted, difficult cultures, different approaches to how to finance automobile racing. It should be noted that the American approach seems to have won out over time....

Rollo
25th September 2012, 11:38
Napier green and wasn't "Bugatti bleu" deliberately selected to be the exact colour of a make of cigarette (Gitanes?) to tie in to an advertising campaign.

I think in this context, Indianapolis should not be considered "Formula 1" as it was a different culture from Europe. "Blue Crown Spark Plug Special" makes sense but I do think the "Sugar-ripe Prune Special" was carrying things a bit far.

I did the research for this, comparing colour scheme with corporate colours and checked through the list of Indy 500 winners against their corporate colours. The "Blue Crown Spark Plug Special" wasn't actually in the corporate colours of the Blue Crown Spark Plug company.

Mr Capps has a fair point in that the mechanism for funding in the United States was entirely different and I think that the reason for that is twofold.

- the sheer lack of manufacturers generally.
- their indifference to motorsport.

Europe had and still has lots of smaller brands competing for sales across borders, whereas the US always had the concentration of a few manufacturers.

wedge
25th September 2012, 13:35
Not F1 but the Race of Two Worlds:

RYBTxG8D_d0

FAL
25th September 2012, 22:19
I think in this context, Indianapolis should not be considered "Formula 1" as it was a different culture from Europe. I do think the "Sugar-ripe Prune Special" was carrying things a bit far.

Perhaps the prunes explains why there were no doors in the "men's room" at Indianapolis until NGH complained?

FAL
25th September 2012, 22:26
55 square inches was the permitted maximum dimension (in pairs, one each side) for the number of stickers permitted (5?).

and I even suffered with the b*stards counting them and measuring them on my car on the RAC Rally...

D-Type
26th September 2012, 12:54
Perhaps the prunes explains why there were no doors in the "men's room" at Indianapolis until NGH complained?

:D Nice one!

Don Capps
26th September 2012, 19:04
The entry of the British credit companies on the racing scene with Yeoman Credit/Bowmaker Finance and United Dominion Trust sponsoring racing teams under their names rather than the British Racing Partnership (BRP) or Reg Parnell (Racing). More than few had their knickers in a wad with such "crass commercialism" at the time and this attitude carried over to later when revisionists airbrushed the teams (shades of the Soviet commissars...) from the entry lists replacing them with BRP or Reg Parnell as appropriate.

I think that we Americans too often confuse British attitudes as reflecting contemporary European/ Continental attitudes when it comes to various motor racing matters. This is in no small part due to the language advantage, of course. It was aided as well by a proclivity to defer to the British on such matters, as misguided as this may have been many times. It is interesting that it was not until Stirling Moss came along that being a professional racing driver was faintly respectable in Britain. While there had been those before Moss who certainly earned money in the racing game, this was often in addition to other employment, often in some aspect of the "motor trade." In addition, it is almost forgotten today that until the latter part of the Fifties that Britain was, to be kind, pretty much a back-of-the-grid sort when it came to racing. While it had the occasional success -- Jaguar and Le Mans, for instance -- on the race track, it was the Continentals who ruled the roost. A close reading of much of the writing during this period is, frankly, grousing about the Continentals with a heavy dose of whining and sniveling about the poor Brits being manhandled by the nasty folks across the Channel.

For the most part, the American racing scene was, at most, a curiosity.

When things finally tilted in the direction of the Brits, they were not necessarily gracious victors. As David Mamet is credited with saying,"It is not enough for me to win. My enemies must lose."

Which brings us to the Americans.

For brief moment in time, beginning in the latter part of the Fifties until maybe a decade or so later, there was almost a Camelot-like situation when racing freely flowed back and forth across the Atantic. Americans had the Europeans -- mostly in the form of the Brits as much as they disliked being associated with those beings who lived in that vague area across The Water to the east -- inflicted upon them and likewise the Americans cames to Europe. The winners who emerged in this exchange were the Brits. When it became apparent that money was to be made, they flocked to the Former Colony to pick up each and every dollar that they could pry loose. This eventually created an imperial-like situation where the local natives had their indigenous craft industries crushed by exports from Britain.

One thing that the Brits found was that there was more than one way to fund your racing team and that the painting the cars to suit the sponsors was less painful when the bags of dollars provided the necessary solace for the tortured soul.

Brits in Blazers embraced this concept rather warily, still smarting that there were now referees for Rugby matches or that anyone outside the Motor Trade would even imagine being involved in something so plebian as what motor racing had now become, Gentlemen now being rather scarce on the grid those days. Forced to be pragmatic, the Blazers made the introduction of commercial sponsorship as inconvenient and uncomfortable as possible, attempted to stem the tide as long as possible: however, they were as successful as Harold at the shore. Once that glimmer of gold and dreams of riches caught both the eye and the imagination, that it was an American idea was promptly disregarded, once again demonstrating that greed is univeral. Sponsorship was embraced and the Blazers relegated to being nusiances rather than arbiters.

All this eventually led to the colonization of American motor racing, of course.

This is the highly condensed, edited version of what happened, but you might still get the drift....

Rollo
27th September 2012, 02:05
The then RACMSA also permitted advertising in its UK motorsport from 1.1.68. A rare instance for the time of alignment of new regulations with FIA (or CSI, FISA or whatever it was that week). 55 square inches was the permitted maximum dimension (in pairs, one each side) for the number of stickers permitted (5?).

If this is true, then can I just say that Lotus was very very canny indeed.

The Lotus 49 in Team Gold Leaf colours, actually has very little in the way of actual advertising:
http://imgs.obviousmag.org/archives/uploads/2007/070507_blog.uncovering.org_lotus49.jpg

If you actually look at it, there's a few sponsors on the nose and half way down the side there is a "Gold Leaf Team Lotus" panel but that's it.

I'm guessing that Chapman looked at exactly what the regulations said and determined that a colour scheme, doesn't actually constitute advert space. Most of the car is a single gloss red colour, which from an absolutely legal technical reading of the rules, is no different to the orange McLaren which sits next to it in shot.

That if it's true, is pure magic.

FAL
27th September 2012, 21:29
Are you suggesting it's not true?
Were you involved at the time?
The entrant's name was exempt from the 55 square inch advert regulation - IF you had purchased an "advertising permit". This was quite an expense for a private entrant on a low budget but not a significant cost to major entrants, even then.
There must always have been an allowance for the entrant's name eg Team Lotus, Owen Organisation.
The RACMSA advertising permit was carefully designed as a "self destruct" foil sticker for the dashboard, preventing you from transferring it to another car....

D-Type
27th September 2012, 23:01
The 1975 FIA 'yellow book' says that advertising on cars is free, but subject to any restrictions made by a National Automobile Club or race organiser in their Supplementary Regulations.

I've a copy of the 1970 RAC 'blue book' but the advertising regulations are a page long and that's too much to type at this time of night. In essence
(a) The event sponsor or title, the entrant's name and the driver's name were permitted.
(b) Any number of displays, each less than 55 sq ins and not related to each other were permitted.
(c) For televised races the permitted advertising was different: 8 pairs of 'credits' per car. A 'credit' being company name without logos etc but corporate colours allowed, size 20 x 7 cms each.