SchM is under investigation

[Valve Bounce]

For trying to run former team mate Rubens into the wall

[Dave B]

So he should be, that was as dangerous driving as I've ever seen in F1. I'm all for a bit of hard racing, but he crossed a line by pushing Rubens so close to the pitwall.

No point penalising him today, he was out of the points anyway, but hopefully a grid penalty when we eventually get to Spa.

[ratonmacias]

once a cheat always a cheat i`m glad he came back to mercedes where he has a decent teammate that is beating him up like a redheaded stepson where he doesnt get special treatment and the myth of the winningest drivers is being dissipated race by race.

[Dave B]

He's just told the BBC that he went so far to the right to make it obvious to Rubens that he was leaving a gap to the left :crazy:

[christophulus]

Cheatmacher completely unapologetic too. :down:

[Ranger]

A bit too close there.

[ioan]

Maybe a race ban is what is needed this time.
It would also give Heidfeld a chance to shine, hopefully.

[Sonic]

Maybe a race ban is what is needed this time.
It would also give Heidfeld a chance to shine, hopefully.

:up:

He's always been this hard on the track, but now no one is scared of him anymore. I have to say its time for him to go - he's a danger to himself and everyone else.

[steveaki13]

I agree with all here, it was a terrible move.

If once he had exited the last corner he had defended on that line, then fine but to turn so late once Rubens had started the move.

I don't think a Grid Penalty is enough, I think like ioan and Sonic he should recieve a race ban and Heidfeld will show some form, that Michael hasn't got this year.

[VkmSpouge]

I am a fan of hard racing but this defensive move by Michael Schumacher went well beyond that. The only reason Rubens Barrichello did not end up in the wall was because it ended allowing him to a little more right into the pitlane exit (I don't want to imagine if someone had been exiting the pits at the time) and avoid a collision that Schumacher almost seemed intent on causing. Rubens still had to take partially to the grass. Bad move by Schumacher.

[Dave B]

He's just told (http://twitter.com/EliGP) Italian TV "I think I left him too much room because he passed" (my italics).

Seriously.

[ArrowsFA1]

So he made an error and knew Rubens was coming. He moved one way to indicate to Rubens to go the other, and yet he kept moving across :crazy:

That was seriously close to the wall.

I don't think a time or grid penalty is enough. The FIA stewards need to clearly indicate this kind of driving is not acceptable. Whether it's Schumacher doing it or anyone else.

[steveaki13]

He's just told (http://twitter.com/EliGP) Italian TV "I think I left him too much room because he passed" (my italics).

Seriously.


He said same on Beeb.

I obviously left him plenty of room, as he passed no problem. :eek: :crazy:

[Retro Formula 1]

Well, he did ask for it.

Who was in the wrong, Rubens or Michael?

Poll Please!!!

[markabilly]

He's just told (http://twitter.com/EliGP) Italian TV "I think I left him too much room because he passed" (my italics).

Seriously.
Yah, Mike still Master Chopper, and not even Webber can out chop him....

but actually, I think he thought he had blocked him and RB would go to the left, but he went for the gap to the right....when MS saw it, finally, he immediately gave him room and let him have the corner....he could have kept him boxed in...

so while it looked crazy, I am not so sure it was intended to be as mean as it appears, and no worse than Kubica's move into the pits by slashing across the nose in Canada

BTW, it appears that rubens gained an advantage by going off the racing surface???maybe he should be required to give it back?????? :D

[steveaki13]

Surley no need for a Poll.

Rubens brilliant.

Schumacher a disgrace.

[christophulus]

Good on Rubens :up:

Schumacher completely in the wrong!

[markabilly]

look again....
poll needs to have a neither

[christophulus]

Surley no need for a Poll.


Rubens said on the BBC that the fans should vote on who was at fault :D

[ArrowsFA1]

If anyone doesn't think this kind of move can be dangerous take a look at the accident that happened to Chris Van Der Drift in the Superleague race today:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=je71qzTdzx0

[christophulus]

If anyone doesn't think this kind of move can be dangerous take a look at the accident that happened to Chris Van Der Drift in the Superleague race today:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=je71qzTdzx0

Holy f---.


For those asking: Chris van der Drift is conscious, suspected broken leg at the moment.

http://twitter.com/dank_ross

[Dave B]

There's already a poll on James Allen's website:
http://poll.fm/247lx

The results are pretty damning.

[Retro Formula 1]

He looked in his mirrors tosee Rubens up his inside and then moved across.

Terrible driving. He's a f**king danger out there!!

He's too slow and a liability. He could have killed someone today. How long till he gets his licence removed. When he takes someone's life??

[steveaki13]

Rubens said on the BBC that the fans should vote on who was at fault :D

Oh yer so he did :p Well then lets give Rubens what he wants. Poll please.

[christophulus]

Fair point from Eddie Jordan - the stewards need to take a stand on this. Vettel's chop on Alonso was questionable too, they need to be harsh on Schu to stop this becoming commonplace.

[christophulus]

http://i.imagehost.org/0640/bar-shu.jpg

[wedge]

He's just told the BBC that he went so far to the right to make it obvious to Rubens that he was leaving a gap to the left :crazy:

Why are drivers so insistent on taking the inside line? Rubens could easily faked to the inside and weave and consider the outside.

Massa passed Webber using pit exit in Fuji 2008 and yet he was criticised for it.

Kazuki caused his crash in Brazil when it was blatant Koby had the inside covered.

[Tazio]

I really didn't see any difference between that move and the one than Vettel made at the start of the last race (beside the fact that they were traveling faster). And yes Mike deserves a penalty!

[ArrowsFA1]

Fair point from Eddie Jordan - the stewards need to take a stand on this. Vettel's chop on Alonso was questionable too, they need to be harsh on Schu to stop this becoming commonplace.
To be fair, these kind of moves are commonplace because action was not taken many years ago to prevent it.

[wedge]

Fair point from Eddie Jordan - the stewards need to take a stand on this. Vettel's chop on Alonso was questionable too, they need to be harsh on Schu to stop this becoming commonplace.

So its OK for Webber to give Vettel as little room as possible in Turkey and yet the majority put the blame squarely on Vettel.

[markabilly]

http://i.imagehost.org/0640/bar-shu.jpg
yep RB has all four wheels off the racing surface.....illegal pass

Seriously, this is very dangerous, but this kind of stuff has been going on for quite sometime, lead by webber.


this practice of blocking as well as the practice of not yielding should be stopped .... a long time ago

[wedge]

To be fair, these kind of moves are commonplace because action was not taken many years ago to prevent it.

Dear God no

This is what Indycar had to put up with last week:

1e-J6LWropo

[wedge]

Double post

[ArrowsFA1]

So its OK for Webber to give Vettel as little room as possible in Turkey and yet the majority put the blame squarely on Vettel.
Webber didn't force Vettel off track. From the photo above Michael forced Rubens outside the white line which designates the track.

[christophulus]

So its OK for Webber to give Vettel as little room as possible in Turkey and yet the majority put the blame squarely on Vettel.

The two incidents are different. Webber didn't move his car, Vettel chose to go for a tiny gap then turned back into Webber.

Not sure how to embed videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JOw5Z0PQv0

[ioan]

Massa passed Webber using pit exit in Fuji 2008 and yet he was criticised for it.

Same in Monza 2008. However it has to be pointed out that what people post in here is a case of bias first and foremost.

[ArrowsFA1]

This is what Indycar had to put up with last week:
An absurd decision that was, correctly IMHO, criticised.

[Dave B]

Not sure how to embed videos:
Without spaces: [ you tube ] string after "v=" [/ you tube]
:)

[ioan]

So its OK for Webber to give Vettel as little room as possible in Turkey and yet the majority put the blame squarely on Vettel.

;)

They are putting the blame on Vettel today too, for giving Webber place to breath at the restart after the team failed to call him for pit stop.

Webber might be a good driver and an OK person, his fans though :down:

[ioan]

Without spaces: [ you tube ] string after "v=" [/ you tube]
:)

Nice blank image! :p

[christophulus]

Thanks :)

3JOw5Z0PQv0

[markabilly]

;)

They are putting the blame on Vettel today too, for giving Webber place to breath at the restart after the team failed to call him for pit stop.


If vettel and his crew had been smarter they should have known very quickly of the possible penalty, and vettel should have run up right behind Webber, so when the penalty came, he might NOT have ended up behind fred

[wedge]

Webber didn't force Vettel off track. From the photo above Michael forced Rubens outside the white line which designates the track.

*adjusts monocles* There's still asphalt beyond the white line

It's OK to 'push' a car off the track at corner exit but not on straights????

[markabilly]

Thanks :)

3JOw5Z0PQv0
not again, you webber whiners!!! :down:
this is not about turkey, but once again it shows webber to have been the major contributor to the accident over Vettel by blocking, failing to yield, and then at the critical moment, putting his wheels slightly to the left to ensurre the accident would happen.

[ioan]

Who was in the wrong, Rubens or Michael?

What use to ask a question when you know the unanimous answer?!

[Dave B]

If vettel and his crew had been smarter they should have known very quickly of the possible penalty, and vettel should have run up right behind Webber, so when the penalty came, he might NOT have ended up behind fred
As soon as Vettel was informed that he was under investigation he put in a purple lap. He and the team knew a penalty was a distinct possibility even if he didn't understand why.

[Retro Formula 1]

If vettel and his crew had been smarter they should have known very quickly of the possible penalty, and vettel should have run up right behind Webber, so when the penalty came, he might NOT have ended up behind fred

Seb said he had lost radio at the time I think?

[ioan]

If vettel and his crew had been smarter they should have known very quickly of the possible penalty, and vettel should have run up right behind Webber, so when the penalty came, he might NOT have ended up behind fred

Sadly the RBR strategists aren't the smartest ones around the paddock.

[Dave B]

For reference, the poll I linked to above seems pretty conclusive:

How do you feel about Schumacher's move on Barrichello?

Outrageous 904 votes 83.32%

Hard but fair 138 votes 12.72%

I've no problem with it 43 votes 3.96%

1,085 Total Votes

[Retro Formula 1]

What use to ask a question when you know the unanimous answer?!

Well, a driver could have been killed out there today and Schumacher yet again thinks he did nothing wrong. Perhaps we should ignore you and grant his wishes?

[Dave B]

Seb said he had lost radio at the time I think?
Interesting, because as a viewer I clearly heard the conversation he had with his engineer.

[Retro Formula 1]

Interesting, because as a viewer I clearly heard the conversation he had with his engineer.

Perhaps it came back ;)

[grantb4]

MS was the chop-meister off the starts for many years. Vettel and others now do it. MS drove into Hill and Villeneuve and yet he still races unsanctioned. The stewards need to grow some b***s.

[ioan]

Well, a driver could have been killed out there today ...

Rubbish. The move was unfair and potentially dangerous and deserves a harsh penalty, but no driver was going to get killed there today, maybe only in your imagination.
You already claimed in the other thread that MS tried to kill RB, which is nonsense, by any standards.

[Dave B]

A driver "could" get killed in almost any circumstances, so we need to be careful not to overuse the phrase or over-dramatise events. We've seen some great escapes - Kubica and Massa come to mind in recent years; yet Henry Surtees was fatally wounded in an otherwise unremarkable accident. Let's keep a sense of perspective. :)

[ArrowsFA1]

There's still asphalt beyond the white line
That still doesn't make it acceptable IMHO.

[Dave B]

Alex Wurz (former GPDA chairman) has just told the BBC he thought Schumacher's move was "unacceptable" and "over the line".

(edit: Wurz added that if Schumi wasn't aware of Rubens' position then he should "see a doctor and hand back his superlicence" :eek: )

Mike Gascoyne has also Tweeted: "Interesting to get your feedback on the Schumacher overtaking incident. Seems like 100% agree it was too much and should be punished"

[Retro Formula 1]

Rubbish. The move was unfair and potentially dangerous and deserves a harsh penalty, but no driver was going to get killed there today, maybe only in your imagination.

The move was unfair and potentially dangerous as you say. If there had of been an accident, Rubens could have been killed because of the speed and type of accident that would have resulted. 200mph in a wall is not something I want to see.

Do you agree? If not, it doesn't matter but I hope we both want to stamp this thing out for the good of the sport and drivers.

[Daika]

Schumacher did nothing wrong. Seen the replay and Barichello choose to go to the wall. Notice the white line, Schumacher never crossed that line.

[Dave B]

10 place grid drop for Spa

[wedge]

That still doesn't make it acceptable IMHO.

So Rubens technically cheated?

[christophulus]

10 place grid drop for Spa

That's it? Rubbish.

[Daika]

I think Barichello is the wrong guy here. Schumacher drove between the racing circuit. There is a small gap between the wall en the racingline, how can Schumacher be blamed because Barichello decide to go ofline and into the wall?

[ArrowsFA1]

...how can Schumacher be blamed because Barichello decide to go ofline and into the wall?
Quite simply because, as the stewards found, he "illegitimately impeded car 9 during an overtaking manoeuvre." (link (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85799))

Barrichello was "offline and [almost] into the wall" because Schumacher impeded him.

[ioan]

Quite simply because, as the stewards found, he "illegitimately impeded car 9 during an overtaking manoeuvre." (link (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85799))

Barrichello was "offline and [almost] into the wall" because Schumacher impeded him.

The move was dangerous and he shouldn't have done that, however the stewards reason is idiotic.

[Daika]

The move was dangerous and he shouldn't have done that, however the stewards reason is idiotic.

Why was the move dangerous? Schumacher hold his line and that is it.

[Dave B]

Why was the move dangerous? Schumacher hold his line and that is it.
I can recommend a good TV repairman. Watch a replay, Schumi moved well over to the right. He admits as such, only he claims that by doing so he was inviting Rubens to go round him on the left.

[christophulus]

Why was the move dangerous? Schumacher hold his line and that is it.

I'm not sure if you're being serious, but here we go:

TFsi2kSeubU

Schumacher clearly moves over, he doesn't "hold his line" (unless you count moving diagonally across the straight as a line...).

[Daika]

I can recommend a good TV repairman. Watch a replay, Schumi moved well over to the right. He admits as such, only he claims that by doing so he was inviting Rubens to go round him on the left.

seen it. Barichello went offline, Schumacher never crossed it.

[Dave B]

seen it. Barichello went offline, Schumacher never crossed it.
I think you're confusing terminology. "Going offline" doesn't mean leaving the track, it means altering your course and in this case squeezing a competitor such that he has no choice but to leave the track.

[steveaki13]

Also it was the way he moved so late, once Rubens had started the move.
If Michael had positioned his car there before the move began, then I can't see a problem, but its the fact he moved to the middle of the road then stopped, then as Rubens decided to go for the gap Schumi then turned into him while Rubens had his car alongside.

For me, there is no Question of Rubens being in the wrong.
Rubens went for a clear gap, then Michael decided to try and frighten him into braking or worse crash into the wall. All to late.

Once he moved across and stopped in the middle and Rubens decided to go inside, then at that point Schumacher can't move again.

[djparky]

I think Barichello is the wrong guy here. Schumacher drove between the racing circuit. There is a small gap between the wall en the racingline, how can Schumacher be blamed because Barichello decide to go ofline and into the wall?

well Rubens was alongside Schumi on the small remaining amount of track that was available to him- quite reasonably so since he was trying to over take Schumi- who then promptly tried to drive him into the pit wall- there wasn't anywhere else to go

and if he'd gone the other way Schumi would have run him off the track into the grass

there is previous- he drove his brother into the pitwall at the start of one race, deliberately drove into Hill & Villeneuve in title deciding races, pretty much put Hakkinen into the wall at 180mph at Spa. I'm all for some hard racing but as with Senna he defaults to the this mode when under pressure

It's totally unacceptable- as it was with Vetter/Webber at the start of Silverstone- since he's no longer the sports golden boy hopefully the FIA will do what they should have done years ago and hand a race ban for a few GP's

better yet I hope he takes the arrogant smirk back off into retirement and good riddance to him when he goes

but well played Rubens for keeping the boot in getting past him anyway- I cheered very loudly at that point

[Daika]

I think you're confusing terminology. "Going offline" doesn't mean leaving the track, it means altering your course and in this case squeezing a competitor such that he has no choice but to leave the track.

Barichello was the one to leave the track, that Schumacher had nothing to do with. At that moment Barichello was caught between Schumacher and the wall obviously. I tend to agree that Schumacher sqeesh Barichello. But i firmly believe that that gap was not for Barichello to try.

[Dave B]

Well you're free to carry on "firmly believing" that. Meanwhile the stewards - who have seen the incident from multiple angles, reviewed the telemetry, and interviewed both drivers - disagree with you.

So do all the team bosses and drivers who have commented, and over 90% of the respondents to James Allen's poll.

[ioan]

...he was trying to over take Schumi- who then promptly tried to drive him into the pit wall...

Isn't it strange that he failed to do so? After all you say that he tried to do it! :\

[Daika]

So do all the team bosses and drivers who have commented, and over 90% of the respondents to James Allen's poll.

I always wonder, does James Allen write himself or does he have a ghostwriter?

[Dave B]

I always wonder, does James Allen write himself or does he have a ghostwriter?
Why wouldn't he write himself? He was a successful journalist and author long before his TV career, and still writes for the FT, ITV.com and his own site which attracts a huge audience. I'm sure he can string a sentence together should the need arise.

[truefan72]

Maybe a race ban is what is needed this time.
It would also give Heidfeld a chance to shine, hopefully.

a tough but understandable judgment if handed down, since it is not the first time he has pulled that maneuver. We all got lucky the first couple of times,but next time might be serious. Better to send a clear message to him that those tactics have no place in F1 today.

[truefan72]

http://i.imagehost.org/0640/bar-shu.jpg

wow, just ugly :down:

a picture says a thousand words.

we are just lucky it did not end badly

[truefan72]

Dear God no

This is what Indycar had to put up with last week:

1e-J6LWropo


and thats why the IRL is a joke. Helio had every right to be angry. Those stewards would be laughed out of town if they tried that in F1.

[CaptainRaiden]

Barichello was the one to leave the track, that Schumacher had nothing to do with. At that moment Barichello was caught between Schumacher and the wall obviously. I tend to agree that Schumacher sqeesh Barichello. But i firmly believe that that gap was not for Barichello to try.

I'm sorry, is that some sort of sarcasm that I'm not getting here? :(

Or are you simply blind?

http://i.imagehost.org/0640/bar-shu.jpg

In this picture, do you see the 5-6 meters of empty track on the right? So, did Schumacher not try to turn into Barrichello or did some ghost wind push him? Or do you think what he did is right and justifiable?? :eek:

[tmx]

I didn't know there is justice in F1. This penalty made my day. It's not the first time Schumacher done it this season.

[Daika]

I'm sorry, is that some sort of sarcasm that I'm not getting here? :(

Or are you simply blind?

http://i.imagehost.org/0640/bar-shu.jpg

In this picture, do you see the 5-6 meters of empty track on the right? So, did Schumacher not try to turn into Barrichello or did some ghost wind push him? Or do you think what he did is right and justifiable?? :eek:

You see the white line. Schumacher never crossed that. how did Barichello got there? You can't say Schumacher forced him into the wall. He choose to go into that gap.

[Saint Devote]

Rubens was in the wrong. Schumi was defending his line and Rubens CHOSE to go off track.

[Langdale Forest]

Surley no need for a Poll.

Rubens brilliant.

Schumacher a disgrace.

Totally agree. :)

[steveaki13]

Rubens was in the wrong. Schumi was defending his line and Rubens CHOSE to go off track.

As there is no poll yet.

Schumacher: 1 Vote

Barrichello: several thousand votes.

:p

[pettersolberg29]

I'm mixed up, as I'm not sure that if it had been two other drivers if there would be such a furore. Yes - it was quite dangerous, but it's only Schumi's past infringements which suggest it was intentional. If Hulkenburg had done that to De La Rosa, would people be slating Hulkenburg as much as people are slating Michael?

Having said that, it definately wasn't Rubens' fault, but it may not be as bad an error by Schumacher as people are suggesting.

[Bradley]

Well done by Rubens !

Schumacher started the year in sportsmanship, but he's falling back to his old disgusting moves. :down:

[steveaki13]

I'm mixed up, as I'm not sure that if it had been two other drivers if there would be such a furore. Yes - it was quite dangerous, but it's only Schumi's past infringements which suggest it was intentional. If Hulkenburg had done that to De La Rosa, would people be slating Hulkenburg as much as people are slating Michael?

Having said that, it definately wasn't Rubens' fault, but it may not be as bad an error by Schumacher as people are suggesting.

:up:

I think that is a good point, with Schumacher having done what he's done in the past, I think it can make people over react.

If as you say Hulkenberg did the same against De La Rosa, would people be calling for a revoke of his superlicense.

I not sure most would.

But also, I still think Michael deserves his punishment and maybe a race ban could have been more suited.

[Nikki Katz]

Barrichello is absolutely right, that was a really dangerous move from Schumacher, there was absolutely no reason to drive him into a concrete wall when he'd already lost the position. There have been a lot of injuries already this weekend, and that could have been a nasty one.

[Daika]

was wondering what kind of penalty Schumacher would get if it was in the middle of the race and not the end.

[Big Ben]

So MS tried to kill someone. What´s new :laugh: ? seriously, that man has now character.

[Big Ben]

was wondering what kind of penalty Schumacher would get if it was in the middle of the race and not the end.

RB´s idea was a pretty good one.... but the actual penalty is better since the sociopath is actually penalized for what he did.

[Shifter]

I think Barichello is the wrong guy here. Schumacher drove between the racing circuit. There is a small gap between the wall en the racingline, how can Schumacher be blamed because Barichello decide to go ofline and into the wall?

Exactly. Rubens should have stayed inside the white line, lifted, and allowed Schumacher to drive over his wheels, launching Schumacher into the air and out of the race. As it was, Rubens wussed out and made the pass cleanly.

[djparky]

Isn't it strange that he failed to do so? After all you say that he tried to do it! :\

well I only said he tried- when Schumi goes fall on for driving into someone he tends to succeed

[djparky]

was wondering what kind of penalty Schumacher would get if it was in the middle of the race and not the end.

doesn't matter whether you do that on lap 5 or lap 55- it's completely unacceptable driving

[Saint Devote]

For trying to run former team mate Rubens into the wall

That is a wicked accusation and has no logical foundation at all.

[Daika]

doesn't matter whether you do that on lap 5 or lap 55- it's completely unacceptable driving

Well, it does matter. From a moral point of view it doesn't matter. From a practical point of view it does. You can't blackflag, drive-through, pitstop penalty when the race is practically over. It is all in hindsight but without it we wouldn't have this forum to talk about it.

[Shifter]

That is a wicked accusation and has no logical foundation at all.

Okay, Michael isn't stupid, and intended all along to leave just enough room between him and the pit wall to fit an F1 car through, the intent being to hopefully frighten Rubens into backing off or getting his tires dirty and run wide in turn 1.

Still though, the majority of us seem to feel that at those speeds, that's an awfully small saftey window to play inside, and the diagonal path that Schumacher used AFTER Rubens was already alongside is outside the bounds of taking a defensive line and qualifies as a blocking manouver. That is what people are taking issue with, but they're using simplified language to express it.

[Saint Devote]

Okay, Michael isn't stupid, and intended all along to leave just enough room between him and the pit wall to fit an F1 car through, the intent being to hopefully frighten Rubens into backing off or getting his tires dirty and run wide in turn 1.

Still though, the majority of us seem to feel that at those speeds, that's an awfully small saftey window to play inside, and the diagonal path that Schumacher used AFTER Rubens was already alongside is outside the bounds of taking a defensive line and qualifies as a blocking manouver. That is what people are taking issue with, but they're using simplified language to express it.

Rubens as did Prost, could have backed off he decided against do so. Schumi reminded me of Senna.

I think many people have forgotten what the Senna - Prost days were like and the attitudes for example.

I do find attitudes amongst many people these days difficult to comprehend. It was not that long ago where what happened today would have been labelled a "tough battle" rather than trigger such hysteria and calls for penalties.

It is grossly unjust to point a finger at Schumi yet not question why Barrichello did not relent given his apparent concern that it was a dangerous situation.

This is why I do suspect Barrichello's motives - I do not think he is innocent as he wants to make out.

If Schumi is going to tbe "court martialled" then Rubens should also be - he could have taken another course of action.

I notice you support Kubica - he is one of the few people in racing that talks without an agenda these days and has in my judgement, credibility. Pity HE is not in an RB6!

Do not forget HIS action last weekend when he also refused to budge and as a result Alonso decided to pass him off the circuit, also alleging that the Pole tried to drive him off the circuit.

That was tough racing and I do not think any different to what we saw today. In both cases really, Kubica and Schumi did nothing wrong.

[BDunnell]

Rubens as did Prost, could have backed off he decided against do so. Schumi reminded me of Senna.

I think many people have forgotten what the Senna - Prost days were like and the attitudes for example.

I do find attitudes amongst many people these days difficult to comprehend. It was not that long ago where what happened today would have been labelled a "tough battle" rather than trigger such hysteria and calls for penalties.

It is grossly unjust to point a finger at Schumi yet not question why Barrichello did not relent given his apparent concern that it was a dangerous situation.

This is why I do suspect Barrichello's motives - I do not think he is innocent as he wants to make out.

If Schumi is going to tbe "court martialled" then Rubens should also be - he could have taken another course of action.

I notice you support Kubica - he is one of the few people in racing that talks without an agenda these days and has in my judgement, credibility. Pity HE is not in an RB6!

Do not forget HIS action last weekend when he also refused to budge and as a result Alonso decided to pass him off the circuit, also alleging that the Pole tried to drive him off the circuit.

That was tough racing and I do not think any different to what we saw today. In both cases really, Kubica and Schumi did nothing wrong.

Your argument loses credibility when you state: 'It was not that long ago where what happened today would have been labelled a "tough battle" rather than trigger such hysteria and calls for penalties'. Villeneuve versus Arnoux at Dijon 1979 is my definition of a tough battle. At no time did either driver try and force the other into a wall when the other was alongside. And the notion that such things have been going on in F1 for years is nonsense. Show me an example of Moss, Fangio, Brabham, Clark, Stewart, Rindt, Lauda, etc, doing anything on track that remotely compares to Schumacher's chop on Barrichello today. There is a reason why Schumacher's actions have generated such criticism.

[Mia 01]

MS got off very very light.

[Saint Devote]

Your argument loses credibility when you state: 'It was not that long ago where what happened today would have been labelled a "tough battle" rather than trigger such hysteria and calls for penalties'. Villeneuve versus Arnoux at Dijon 1979 is my definition of a tough battle. At no time did either driver try and force the other into a wall when the other was alongside. And the notion that such things have been going on in F1 for years is nonsense. Show me an example of Moss, Fangio, Brabham, Clark, Stewart, Rindt, Lauda, etc, doing anything on track that remotely compares to Schumacher's chop on Barrichello today. There is a reason why Schumacher's actions have generated such criticism.

You conveniently omit the criticism that also followed the Arnoux-Villeneuve battle as a result of them actually banging wheels at Dijon-Prenois.

You consider that okay, but then become all self-righteous when there is NO contact but just close racing in a situation that Barrichello CHOSE to enter during a period when racing cars by comparison to 1979 are so much safer?

You are the one that should be concerned about credibility.

[Saint Devote]

I suggest you watch the incident again and see how fast it unfolded. Ruben's was already committed with two cars width's between Schuey and the wall when he made the move and there was no possibility for taking another course of action. Stamping on your brakes and swerving across to the outside at 190mph was hardly a viable alternative and I can't believe you are actually arguing in favour of it. This also isn't the Senna/Prost era so you point holds little water.

Barrichello had ample room - he could have backed off but decided against it. Nobody can criticize Schumi without doing the same to Rubens.

The difference is that Barrichello is very good at being the victim - with his "heartfelt" sympathy for Massa [another driver that likes to leverage a sympathy vote] and his "regret" at how he "obeyed" during his Ferrari years.

While Schumi can never win at this because of the bs "underdog" syndrome that permeates throughout societies.

Rubens CHOSE to do as he did today.

[Saint Devote]

This also isn't the Senna/Prost era so you point holds little water.

My reference was as an example not for justification.

The matter today stands on its own merit that it was tough racing and Barrichello chose to sit it out with Schumi - he passed him did he not?

So whats the big deal? The hysteria seen from this is embarassing and makes racing look like its fans are a bunch of pansies :vader:

If Rubens had anything to say he should have gone to Schumi afterwards behind the pits and sorted it out there. Thats how MEN do it.

[BDunnell]

You conveniently omit the criticism that also followed the Arnoux-Villeneuve battle as a result of them actually banging wheels at Dijon-Prenois.

You consider that okay, but then become all self-righteous when there is NO contact but just close racing in a situation that Barrichello CHOSE to enter during a period when racing cars by comparison to 1979 are so much safer?

You are the one that should be concerned about credibility.

Er... no. The criticism of Arnoux and Villeneuve was far, very far, from universal. Mario Andretti for one was vocal in speaking out against those who felt they had driven irresponsibly.

[BDunnell]

My reference was as an example not for justification.

The matter today stands on its own merit that it was tough racing and Barrichello chose to sit it out with Schumi - he passed him did he not?

So whats the big deal? The hysteria seen from this is embarassing and makes racing look like its fans are a bunch of pansies :vader:

If Rubens had anything to say he should have gone to Schumi afterwards behind the pits and sorted it out there. Thats how MEN do it.

How very mature that would have been.

[Shifter]

I did support Kubica's actions at the chicane incident with Alonso, as I'd support any driver's right to slash from apex to apex in a chicane. Passing on the outside of a chicane is a foolish move because the right of the lead car to follow the racing line in a chicane will always put the driver attempting an outside pass into a chicane off-track.

As for comparasons to the Senna/Prost era, I must admit that due to my age I wasn't following F1 race-by-race at the time. However, I've seen alot of highlights and analysis of that great era. In all the footage I've seen, most of Senna's defensive moves were brilliant tactical moves, and on rare occasion I saw him make moves I thought were a bit much...same thing from Schumacher. At times (his battle with Hamilton in China this year, for example), I've appreciated Schumachers' warrior-like commitment. On rare occasion however, like the block on Rubens today, I feel Schumacher makes a move that is simply too agressive. I admit it's an opinion, but hopefully I've justified my position.

[Saint Devote]

Er... no. The criticism of Arnoux and Villeneuve was far, very far, from universal. Mario Andretti for one was vocal in speaking out against those who felt they had driven irresponsibly.

You have a stammer?

What does universal refer to? In those days it was the f1 press, the GPDA, the teams and perhaps the FISA that became in involved - nothing like today.

Arnoux and Villeneuve were criticised and Villeneuve in particular could not understand that at all.

[Saint Devote]

How very mature that would have been.

:rolleyes:
I see you are another of these who think f1 is a very genteel club .........

It has NEVER been that. The list of drivers who have "sorted things out" is quite long one.

[Saint Devote]

From Ross :-]

....Brawn was adamant that Schumacher's driving was within acceptable limits. "Pretty tough - a tough move by Michael and a tough decision by the stewards," said the team chief.

"I don't think for a moment that Michael was trying to put Rubens in the wall - but he was trying to discourage him from coming down the inside because he thought that was where he would be vulnerable.

But at the end of the day he gave him enough space. You can argue that it was marginal but – tough racing."

Brawn believes Schumacher was caught out by Barrichello getting alongside him so soon after the exit of the final corner and had not been trying to deny him space.

"Later in the manoeuvre you can see he moved away from Rubens, I don't think he expected Rubens to be exactly where he was at that time because it is a sort of manoeuvre that happens when you enter a corner not that far up a straight.

Rubens got a very good run out of the last corner with his new tyres so I think there is lots of way arguing it – but these things happen in a fraction of a second."

He added that he was certain there was no dangerous intent in the move.

"It may have ended up in a dangerous way but that wasn't the intent I am sure by Michael.

Michael was defending his position, trying to encourage Rubens to go around the outside. I don't think for a moment that he saw Rubens there and thought 'I will squeeze him.

But it is a pretty tough business F1 and if you open up every time someone tries to attack you then you know the drivers in F1 who don't defend and those that do."

He also denied any suggestion that Schumacher's driving had been particularly brutal because Barrichello was an ex-team-mate.

"Certainly not from Michael's perspective!" Brawn replied when asked if the 'history' between the two drivers had been a factor.

"Michael didn't comment on that. I know Rubens has commented on the history between them, but Michael hasn't at all. It is obviously something that is paramount in Rubens' mind."

Ruben mind? Ross can say THAT again. It looks as if it the Brazilian's obsession.

[Shifter]

I've retired to a darkroom to analyse Senna/Prost at Portugal against Schumacher/Barrichello today at Hungary. It's worthy of a dissertation that I'm not sure I have the energy to write today...and frighteningly, I'm beginning to think that what Schumacher did today might be justified...amazing how much depth there is to F1 racing sometimes, I guess it's why it's my favorite sport.

[stephenw_us]

I've retired to a darkroom to analyse Senna/Prost at Portugal against Schumacher/Barrichello today at Hungary. It's worthy of a dissertation that I'm not sure I have the energy to write today...and frighteningly, I'm beginning to think that what Schumacher did today might be justified...amazing how much depth there is to F1 racing sometimes, I guess it's why it's my favorite sport.


All this uproar is fueled by haters - had the protagnists been say vettel versus hamilton the entire tone would be different and there would be no penalty....

The penalty is ridiculous, and a direct result of the nanny state we live in and allowing a blowhard like Rubens get all indignant and make accusations of "crazy" and all that...he did what he did and got through there and then MS gave him back the track so what is the problem?

This is just another opportunity for Rubens crybaby Barrichello to whinge again...

[Daniel]

Funny how the one who uses the most flowery language is the one who talks about being violent. Makes me :rotflmao:

[BDunnell]

Funny how the one who uses the most flowery language is the one who talks about being violent. Makes me :rotflmao:

Correction — the one who tries to use the most flowery language. The end result is typical of those who are unable to do so naturally.

[Valve Bounce]

So its OK for Webber to give Vettel as little room as possible in Turkey and yet the majority put the blame squarely on Vettel.

I didn't see Mark try to force Vettel into a concrete wall, did you?

[Daniel]

Correction — the one who tries to use the most flowery language. The end result is typical of those who are unable to do so naturally.

Agreed. I've hypothesised previously that he sits by his computer with a thesaurus and merely substitutes words and as you say the result is unnatural, like a post which has been converted from one language to another with babelfish.

[Daniel]

I didn't see Mark try to force Vettel into a concrete wall, did you?
He has done previously yes.

[BDunnell]

:rolleyes:
I see you are another of these who think f1 is a very genteel club .........

It has NEVER been that. The list of drivers who have "sorted things out" is quite long one.

I find those who consider the use of physical violence to be somehow 'manly' and impressive to be pathetic figures.

[Valve Bounce]

That is a wicked accusation and has no logical foundation at all.

Wrong!!

[Valve Bounce]

My reference was as an example not for justification.

The matter today stands on its own merit that it was tough racing and Barrichello chose to sit it out with Schumi - he passed him did he not?

So whats the big deal? The hysteria seen from this is embarassing and makes racing look like its fans are a bunch of pansies :vader:

If Rubens had anything to say he should have gone to Schumi afterwards behind the pits and sorted it out there. Thats how MEN do it.

Oh Yeah! and you'd know!!

[Valve Bounce]

Funny how the one who uses the most flowery language is the one who talks about being violent. Makes me :rotflmao:

That's what happens when they join the Golders Green putsche

[wedge]

Your argument loses credibility when you state: 'It was not that long ago where what happened today would have been labelled a "tough battle" rather than trigger such hysteria and calls for penalties'. Villeneuve versus Arnoux at Dijon 1979 is my definition of a tough battle. At no time did either driver try and force the other into a wall when the other was alongside. And the notion that such things have been going on in F1 for years is nonsense. Show me an example of Moss, Fangio, Brabham, Clark, Stewart, Rindt, Lauda, etc, doing anything on track that remotely compares to Schumacher's chop on Barrichello today. There is a reason why Schumacher's actions have generated such criticism.

Giuseppe 'Nino' Farina, the first ever F1 WDC was regarded as a dirty driver in his day for his chopping skills. Stirling Moss - considered him the hardest ever racer he raced against and to my knowledge never harshly criticised him.


My reference was as an example not for justification.

The matter today stands on its own merit that it was tough racing and Barrichello chose to sit it out with Schumi - he passed him did he not?

So whats the big deal? The hysteria seen from this is embarassing and makes racing look like its fans are a bunch of pansies :vader:

If Rubens had anything to say he should have gone to Schumi afterwards behind the pits and sorted it out there. Thats how MEN do it.

You know what? The more I've seen the manoeuvre the more I enjoy it.

Seeing Ruben narrowly close to disaster and coming through in one piece and successfully make the pass stick. There's no drug like it.

Can't help but agree with this:


"It was a bit tight and tough, but I think I'm known not to give presents on track. To pass me you have to earn it."

[BDunnell]

Giuseppe 'Nino' Farina, the first ever F1 WDC was regarded as a dirty driver in his day for his chopping skills. Stirling Moss - considered him the hardest ever racer he raced against and to my knowledge never harshly criticised him.

Oh yes, there were exceptions. No-one is denying that. Moss once said to John Coombs that Coombs' regular driver Roy Salvadori was 'the dirtiest driver I've ever raced against', too.

As for your comment that the Schumacher/Barrichello incident was exciting, I would generally agree, were it not for the fact that what Schumacher did was so utterly, boringly predictable. Did you not expect him to do exactly what he did? At least it passed off safely.

[Valve Bounce]

Oh yes, there were exceptions. No-one is denying that. Moss once said to John Coombs that Coombs' regular driver Roy Salvadori was 'the dirtiest driver I've ever raced against', too.

As for your comment that the Schumacher/Barrichello incident was exciting, I would generally agree, were it not for the fact that what Schumacher did was so utterly, boringly predictable. Did you not expect him to do exactly what he did? At least it passed off safely.

Don't forget it's not the first time. SchM drove Mika into a concrete wall at Macau. :eek:

[VkmSpouge]

Ten place grid penalty seems reasonable to hit Schumacher with, a good decision by the race stewards.


Nobody can criticize Schumi without doing the same to Rubens.

Really? Nobody can? I think the race stewards can.

[Tazio]

I love a good metaphor:

Rubens Barrichello: “I don’t want to go to heaven before Michael…”


Rubens Barrichello made his feelings about Michael Schumacher’s driving in Hungary clear by suggesting he didn’t want to beat his former team mate to heaven.

If he wants to go to heaven before me – if he goes to heaven, I don’t know if he goes to heaven. But if he wants to go before me, go up or down, I don’t want to go before him

Good stuff!

http://adamcooperf1.com/2010/08/01/rubens-barrichello-i-dont-want-to-go-to-heaven-before-michael/

[Saint Devote]

Funny how the one who uses the most flowery language is the one who talks about being violent. Makes me :rotflmao:

Violence? No. But sometimes a disagreement can lead to a pinch flying - just ask AJ or Stewart!

I am referring to the unfortunate way these days that EVERYTHING is referred to the FIA.

Today what did Rubens say afterwards? It is no use talking to Schumi about it and he did not even try to get the FIA to revers its 10 place decision.

Is that how Rubens wants it? Settling it like a little mama's boy running to his mother? No deal buddy boy.

Where I come from you settle it face to face and thats the end of it.

Rubens merely has a sizeable inferiority complex - such a pity - he really is a very little man.

[Saint Devote]

Ten place grid penalty seems reasonable to hit Schumacher with, a good decision by the race stewards.



Really? Nobody can? I think the race stewards can.

They ought not to. What they have done is not justice.

[CNR]

for someone that can place the car in the same spot on the race track 2 laps in a row

http://i32.tinypic.com/2la8x9w.jpg

[Saint Devote]

Giuseppe 'Nino' Farina, the first ever F1 WDC was regarded as a dirty driver in his day for his chopping skills. Stirling Moss - considered him the hardest ever racer he raced against and to my knowledge never harshly criticised him.



You know what? The more I've seen the manoeuvre the more I enjoy it.

Seeing Ruben narrowly close to disaster and coming through in one piece and successfully make the pass stick. There's no drug like it.

Can't help but agree with this:

:D Schumi races at a higher level. Just as everyone got upset when he passed Alonso in Monte Carlo.

Today, we witnessed Vettel apparently confused and then losing his composure.

In the RB6, Schumi would not have made that error or lost his cool and would have driven like Mark Webber.

Schumacher is indeed a target - and sadly there are many spiteful and venemous people that harbour a deep envy and resentment for the German driver.

One of those is Barrichello.

[Saint Devote]

Oh yes, there were exceptions. No-one is denying that. Moss once said to John Coombs that Coombs' regular driver Roy Salvadori was 'the dirtiest driver I've ever raced against', too.


Exceptions? :D

Not exceptions, but when neccessary, the rule. From Brabham to Rindt to Senna and many more.

[ratonmacias]

:D Schumi races at a higher level. Just as everyone got upset when he passed Alonso in Monte Carlo.

Today, we witnessed Vettel apparently confused and then losing his composure.

In the RB6, Schumi would not have made that error or lost his cool and would have driven like Mark Webber.

Schumacher is indeed a target - and sadly there are many spiteful and venemous people that harbour a deep envy and resentment for the German driver.

One of those is Barrichello.

if the cheat would race like webber in a rb6 what would rosberg do with a rb6 lap the field? rosberg has owned the cheat this year.

funny how you remind us of monaco where the cheat was the cheat for the nth time in his long and dirty career

[Marbles]

Brundle touched on this and I thought I'd like to expand on it. Schumacher had a chance with this comeback attempt, win or lose -- fail or pass, to leave F1 with a more sporting, graceful, elder statesman... even gentlemanly image if he carried himself properly.

No, he comes off looking like Eliseo Salazar. Good on ya buddy! You is what you is!

It must be pure hell for him driving that car. Kind of reminds of him those few races he had with Jordan. The few races in his career he didn't have the best or second best car on the grid. I hope his feet are burning.

[Valve Bounce]

Brundle touched on this and I thought I'd like to expand on it. Schumacher had a chance with this comeback attempt, win or lose -- fail or pass, to leave F1 with a more sporting, graceful, elder statesman... even gentlemanly image if he carried himself properly.

No, he comes off looking like Eliseo Salazar. Good on ya buddy! You is what you is!

It must be pure hell for him driving that car. Kind of reminds of him those few races he had with Jordan. The few races in his career he didn't have the best or second best car on the grid. I hope his feet are burning.

Yeah! I heard that. For me, the incident immediately brought back memories of Macau - I guess the bugger will never change. He will just get older, slower and more bitter as each year passes.

[Valve Bounce]

:D Schumi races at a higher level. Just as everyone got upset when he passed Alonso in Monte Carlo.

Today, we witnessed Vettel apparently confused and then losing his composure.

In the RB6, Schumi would not have made that error or lost his cool and would have driven like Mark Webber.

Schumacher is indeed a target - and sadly there are many spiteful and venemous people that harbour a deep envy and resentment for the German driver.

One of those is Barrichello.

This is just about the most misguided piece of bollocks that I've ever read about SchM here.

[Marbles]

It shows Ruebens still got big ones and MS is still a twat. I'm sure Schumacher has convinced himself the he hasn't killed anyone owing to his uber racecraft.

What is even sadder than what he did is who he did it to. His faithful and contractually obligated tail gunner for many years. Austria 2002 Michael, did it not count for anything?

[airshifter]

Today was yet another example of Mike resorting to anything to maintain a position, or to gain one. Putting a car into the grass or run off area is one thing, but driving one towards a wall at such speed is another.

If they don't put their foot down, sooner or later he will intentionally ram another car.

[truefan72]

Agreed. I've hypothesised previously that he sits by his computer with a thesaurus and merely substitutes words and as you say the result is unnatural, like a post which has been converted from one language to another with babelfish.

yep

[truefan72]

This is just about the most misguided piece of bollocks that I've ever read about SchM here.

hard to disagree

[555-04Q2]

I missed this incident. What happened?

[555-04Q2]

I've just watched the "incident" and can't understand what the fuss is all about :confused:

[Roamy]

I've just watched the "incident" and can't understand what the fuss is all about :confused:
YEA if Rubens would have just braked hard he could have cartwheeled that Prix down the straight

[Valve Bounce]

YEA if Rubens would have just braked hard he could have cartwheeled that Prix down the straight

That was a distinct possibility.

[ArrowsFA1]

Rubens CHOSE to do as he did today.
Of course he did. He was racing. Racing drivers try to pass each other sometimes. If they didn't they wouldn't be employed for long.

What was interesting to me was Schumacher's post race interview in which he said (I don't remember his exact words) he had a 5cm patch of tarmac to aim for in order to take the perfect line through the last corner. He slid wide and missed it and so knew Rubens would be on him. He'd accepted he would lose the position so he then moved to the right so that Rubens could pass unhindered on the left.

From what I've read and heard from the paddock only Ross Brawn and Norbert Haug actually believe that.

If it was his intention to let Rubens through to his left why, when he realised Rubens was passing on the right, did Michael keep moving across if it was not to intimidate, block and ultimately prevent the Williams getting through?

[Mia 01]

MS is lying, the stewards did kow this and gave him a weak punishment.

[markabilly]

bottom line, it is no different than what Webber did with Vettel, except webber knew there would be an accident....hard to say that about the MS-RB incident, as (1) RB made the pass and (2) did not crash (3) and MS and RB did not touch

Splitting hairs when it comes to chopping and mean driving....

chopschuie.....the old grand master chopper certainly kept his title :vader:


When viewed in this proper context of F1 being chopper heaven, not sure about what the fuss is all about, but if they gonna chop down on chopschuie, they need to chop down on Webber for his stunt on Vettel, and on Kettle for his stunt on Webber at the Brit GP, Kube on his chop across the nose into the pits at the canadian GP, and all the rest........ :rolleyes:

to paraphrase denzel washington in Training Day, this aint NASCAR, it's formula one.......

opps, there goes that nascar safety-car again after some tiny unseen piece of debris to liven up the boring procession......wonder where they got that idea???????? :confused:

[MrJan]

I don't mind hard racing but that was a bit too close for comfort.

[markabilly]

ten spot penalty???Deep inside, chopschuie is probably smiling, thinking it was worth every spot, just to get to hear rubino whine like an old woman and her lapdog......

:bigcry: :bigcry: i no wanna go to heaven before micheal, if he goes :bigcry: :bigcry:


typical rubino, any real racer would want to be there long before MS goes or tries to go, and rubino of all people, should definently want to go first, so he will not have to worry about the chop at the gate, if he has to pass him there....

:vader:


personally, it might be fun to see, if and when chopper webber tries to take the master chopper title directly out of chopschuie's hands, mano mano

[Valve Bounce]

bottom line, it is no different than what Webber did with Vettel, except webber knew there would be an accident....hard to say that about the MS-RB incident, as (1) RB made the pass and (2) did not crash (3) and MS and RB did not touch

Splitting hairs when it comes to chopping and mean driving....

chopschuie.....the old grand master chopper certainly kept his title :vader:


When viewed in this proper context of F1 being chopper heaven, not sure about what the fuss is all about, but if they gonna chop down on chopschuie, they need to chop down on Webber for his stunt on Vettel, and on Kettle for his stunt on Webber at the Brit GP, Kube on his chop across the nose into the pits at the canadian GP, and all the rest........ :rolleyes:

to paraphrase denzel washington in Training Day, this aint NASCAR, it's formula one.......

opps, there goes that nascar safety-car again after some tiny unseen piece of debris to liven up the boring procession......wonder where they got that idea???????? :confused:


BS! You're full of it!

[jannyboyy]

I think that it was not that dangerous. He knew exactly what he was doing only leaving space for a car, he just wanted to make rubbens a little bit nervous. It looks dangerous to the rest of us but these guys can drive their cars to the precision of milimeters so it was not even close to accident.

[markabilly]

BS! You're full of it!
thank god, for a second my Heart Bounced, thinking a webber whiner might agree with me.... :D

or maybe you think webber is the better chopper than schuie......

[Valve Bounce]

thank god, for a second my Heart Bounced, thinking a webber whiner might agree with me.... :D

or maybe you think webber is the better chopper than schuie......

Why would anyone agree with your BS?

For a start:
1. Vettel rammed Webber
2. Neither driver tried to run the other into a wall
3. Both drivers were team mates, and
4. SchM tried to run Rubens into a concrete wall, like he tried to do to his own brother Ralfie, and like he succeeded with Mika at Macau.

Now I would expect anyone, other than a lame brain, to understand all this.

[pino]

Valve, please cool down :)

[markabilly]

.

Now I would expect anyone, other than a lame brain, to understand all this.

:rotflmao:

[Valve Bounce]

Valve, please cool down :)

Sorry pino. I guess I tried to supress all criticism of SchM since the guy retired and even hoped things would be great when he came back.

I guessed wrong. :(

[Robinho]

Scumi had every right to position his car on the inside line to block Rubens, knowing that Rubens was quicker and was going to attempt a pass. He could, and should, have moved over stright away to block the line.

However, he should have done it before Rubens had already got alongside, and once noticing he was next to him, stopped moving him over further.

If he'd really wanted to force RB into going round the outside he could have moved over early, rather than drifting across when the move was already in progress. However if he had done Rubens would have still picked up the tow and murdered him on the brakes with the freshr tyres anyway. MS knew this and knew the only way to stop him passing was to make him back out of it, attempted by closing the door after RB had committed.

He still failed and although i think Rubens was not exactly 100% right to continue through pretty much off the circuit, he was given no opportunity and by easing off or braking the potential for an accident was probably even higher and more catastrophic.

98%-2% against MS for me, and rightly penalised.

And no, STD, i was not one of "everyone" moaning against the´Monaco thing, before you start, i was one of the many in favour of the move who did not understand the penalty, but your selective memory which only cherry picks from the "good ole' days" file would probably chosen to omitted that to suit your deranged rantings.

[wedge]

Scumi had every right to position his car on the inside line to block Rubens, knowing that Rubens was quicker and was going to attempt a pass. He could, and should, have moved over stright away to block the line.

However, he should have done it before Rubens had already got alongside, and once noticing he was next to him, stopped moving him over further.

One move rule.

Commit too early and you're giving presents away


As for your comment that the Schumacher/Barrichello incident was exciting, I would generally agree, were it not for the fact that what Schumacher did was so utterly, boringly predictable. Did you not expect him to do exactly what he did? At least it passed off safely.

If it was so utterly boringly predictable then why didn't Rubens see it coming? He should have no complaints when he committed the line he took.

Why are drivers so intent on committing the inside? What happened to racecraft? Mansell was the master of the shimmy and feign. Why don't we see this anymore now that the daft one move rule gives the pursuer the advantage to weave?


Don't forget it's not the first time. SchM drove Mika into a concrete wall at Macau. :eek:

No he never. Schumi never pushed him into the armco, he chopped in front.

Arguably Mika mis-timed his move just as Nakajima did at Brazil last year.


Exceptions? :D

Not exceptions, but when neccessary, the rule. From Brabham to Rindt to Senna and many more.

Exceptions? LOL

Moss often questioned whether Schumi would've pulled those moves in his day.

Cars have become safer and drivers pushed the limits more. Its happened in America too from roll cages on Sprintcars to the COT in NASCAR.

[CaptainRaiden]

:D Schumi races at a higher level.

So, since Rosberg is spanking the bejesus out of Schumi boy in the same machinery, he is racing at a "level" even higher than Schumacher's, won't you agree? Well, at least in your books.

[Valve Bounce]

One move rule.


No he never. Schumi never pushed him into the armco, he chopped in front.

Arguably Mika mis-timed his move just as Nakajima did at Brazil last year.



.

I think he chopped just as Mika started to go past. It was the start of greater things to come.

[Ruf RGT-8]

Couldn't agree more. If Schumacher had done it to anyone else it would've been indefensible but unsurprising considering his utter ruthlessness in the past. But doing it to his faithful teammate for so many years is disgraceful. For me, there's going to be real schadenfreude watching him continue to be humbled by Rosberg for the rest of the season.

[wedge]

What is even sadder than what he did is who he did it to. His faithful and contractually obligated tail gunner for many years. Austria 2002 Michael, did it not count for anything?

Oh please.

Top level sports is not about giving things away to your opponents easily regardless of rights and wrongs.

But even Schumi had a sense of charity when he paid it back by giving away the victory at Indy that year.

[wedge]

I think he chopped just as Mika started to go past. It was the start of greater things to come.

ZhJj-B3VqcU

A start of greater things? No it happened long before and it didn't help that Senna who felt Schumi would usurp him one day played silly games during 1992 and 1993.

Funnily, such bully tactics can be traced by Prost. At the 1986 Canadian GP Prost drove round Senna and chopped right in front of him mid-corner which caused Senna to have tank slappa with two wheels on the asphalt which Nigel Roebuck described: "as cold-blooded a pass as any you will see"

[Tazio]

Originally Posted by Marbles

What is even sadder than what he did is who he did it to. His faithful and contractually obligated tail gunner for many years. Austria 2002 Michael, did it not count for anything?
Oh please.

Top level sports is not about giving things away to your opponents easily regardless of rights and wrongs.

But even Schumi had a sense of charity when he paid it back by giving away the victory at Indy that year.

Agreed, that is absolutely not part of the equation!

[BDunnell]

Exceptions? :D

Not exceptions, but when neccessary, the rule. From Brabham to Rindt to Senna and many more.

Give us specific examples of Brabham and Rindt doing anything similar, then.

[ArrowsFA1]

Michael Schumacher has apologised to Rubens Barrichello for his driving during the Hungarian Grand Prix on Sunday.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85828

[wedge]

Give us specific examples of Brabham and Rindt doing anything similar, then.

There's Lotus Cortina race up on the interweb with Graham Hill in the commentary box. I distinctly remember Hill remarking in jest on Brabham's chopping skills because Brabham was will to put his opponents onto the grass. Brabham was known to stick 2 wheels on the dirt so his rivals ate dirt and dirty the road. Hardly gentleman's stuff from the so called gentleman era.

[Tazio]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85828

It's a bit of a backhanded apology, but an apology none the less, as he did say the steward’s decision was correct. :colour:

[ioan]

It shows Ruebens still got big ones and MS is still a twat.

:down:

[ioan]

If they don't put their foot down, sooner or later he will intentionally ram another car.

He did something wrong, however your assumption goes way to far.

[ioan]

So, since Rosberg is spanking the bejesus out of Schumi boy in the same machinery, he is racing at a "level" even higher than Schumacher's, won't you agree? Well, at least in your books.

Roseberg is not racing, he never did, he is just a cruise and collect driver.
People whop disagree are free to give me some examples of great racing from Rosberg.

[ratonmacias]

Roseberg is not racing, he never did, he is just a cruise and collect driver.
People whop disagree are free to give me some examples of great racing from Rosberg.


if Rosberg is so bad why Schumacher "a real racer" cant beat him?

[Tazio]

:down: +1
The Mike bashing is going too far. It’s starting to sound very petty.
Those of us that followed his career closely know what it is worth.


It shows Ruebens still got big ones and MS is still a twat.

:idea: Maybe you should take some time out and bag on Fred for a while :dozey:

[BDunnell]

There's Lotus Cortina race up on the interweb with Graham Hill in the commentary box. I distinctly remember Hill remarking in jest on Brabham's chopping skills because Brabham was will to put his opponents onto the grass. Brabham was known to stick 2 wheels on the dirt so his rivals ate dirt and dirty the road. Hardly gentleman's stuff from the so called gentleman era.

Not a Lotus Cortina race, but an Escort Mexico race. Brabham was certainly aggressive, but never dirty, to the best of my knowledge. It is not an adjective I've ever seen applied to him as a racer, unlike Farina or Salvadori. And by modern standards, all of this is pretty mild.

[motetarip]

Re: the Macau 1990 race clip - Looks like Hakkinen mugged himself there, Schumacher moves right at the same time Hakkinen feints left.

[Daika]

if Rosberg is so bad why Schumacher "a real racer" cant beat him?

Examples the right honourable gentleman asked.

[Shifter]

No "neither" option on the poll?

[donKey jote]

no both either :p

[CNR]

the thing that makes this great is that it was live on tv
if they where focusing on another drive with that camera he may have got away with it

another thing don't forget that Schumacher had bad brakes from the start of the race so it could have been a bad crash

[Saint Devote]

Rubens saw that Schumi was defending yet chose to run alongside off the track - and does his usual "victim dance" to generate sympathy afterwards.

Rubens just has a gigantic complex about his years at Ferrari - tough titties - he CHOSE to stay there as well. Another hypocrite - as is Massa!

And the reports about Schumi apologizing are also another example of media bs - Schumi essentially said that he was sorry if Rubens thought etc .......

Michael Schumacher has nothing to apologize for and he should have given the finger! James Hunt would have!

Schumi is resented for his previous incredible success by insignificant insects trying to disguise their envy by using any and everything at their disposal.

Natuarlly Barrichello leverages this to the hilt as we are all aware of his petulant "Vetteluant" type of behaviour including his time at Brawn.

The Brazilian nutter is another driver who believes that he is a legend in his own mind - Eddie Irvine's view of Rubens is the correct one.

[Tazio]

the thing that makes this great is that it was live on tv
if they where focusing on another drive with that camera he may have got away with it

another thing don't forget that Schumacher had bad brakes from the start of the race so it could have been a bad crash

You did not just post that?

http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/99/m_06138c4cd94049e2ba1ac8ab3cc9b7b0.jpg

[Saint Devote]

the thing that makes this great is that it was live on tv
if they where focusing on another drive with that camera he may have got away with it

another thing don't forget that Schumacher had bad brakes from the start of the race so it could have been a bad crash

It is not relevant what "could have" - the reality is important only.

According to your reasoning then why race, you COULD CRASH!

[Saint Devote]

ZhJj-B3VqcU

A start of greater things? No it happened long before and it didn't help that Senna who felt Schumi would usurp him one day played silly games during 1992 and 1993.

Funnily, such bully tactics can be traced by Prost. At the 1986 Canadian GP Prost drove round Senna and chopped right in front of him mid-corner which caused Senna to have tank slappa with two wheels on the asphalt which Nigel Roebuck described: "as cold-blooded a pass as any you will see"

Beautiful :D

Thanks for that - they made 'em tough in those days.

Ah well back to the present whining and whinging!

[Saint Devote]

Wedge, your post reminds me what Mika said. He was asked about Schumi not that long ago at Monte Carlo and how come in f1 he WAS able to race him so closely as well as beat him despite the total rough tactics that is Schumacher.

Mika never complained but did his talking on track. He simply said that he knew HOW Schumi acted as a driver and accounted for that.

Mika was the driver that Schumi rated the highest during his career - his greatest competitor and the German respects him totally.

A brave and intelligent driver is the Finn who gave as good as he received.

Barrichello is no Mika!

[Valve Bounce]

Rubens saw that Schumi was defending yet chose to run alongside off the track - and does his usual "victim dance" to generate sympathy afterwards.

Rubens just has a gigantic complex about his years at Ferrari - tough titties - he CHOSE to stay there as well. Another hypocrite - as is Massa!

And the reports about Schumi apologizing are also another example of media bs - Schumi essentially said that he was sorry if Rubens thought etc .......

Michael Schumacher has nothing to apologize for and he should have given the finger! James Hunt would have!

Schumi is resented for his previous incredible success by insignificant insects trying to disguise their envy by using any and everything at their disposal.

Natuarlly Barrichello leverages this to the hilt as we are all aware of his petulant "Vetteluant" type of behaviour including his time at Brawn.

The Brazilian nutter is another driver who believes that he is a legend in his own mind - Eddie Irvine's view of Rubens is the correct one.

Another load of bollox. :rolleyes:

[Saint Devote]

Another load of bollox. :rolleyes:

Oh yeah?

If thats the case how come you do not add credibility to your ratheremotional view by motivating your answer? Or are you just like Rubens?

Show that I am incorrect in my assessment.

[Valve Bounce]

Oh yeah?

If thats the case how come you do not add credibility to your ratheremotional view by motivating your answer? Or are you just like Rubens?

Show that I am incorrect in my assessment.

Not emotional, really, just disdain. I have no interest in addressing your silly accusations. You see things your way, I see things differently. That's the best way for me to put it.

However, if you check the poll, the majority of forum members here do not see things your way either. But of course, they can be wrong and you are right.

[Easy Drifter]

I haven't read the entire thread but I haven't seen it mentioned that Brundle commented on TGF watching Ruebens in his right side mirror as Ruebens started to pass.

[Valve Bounce]

I haven't read the entire thread but I haven't seen it mentioned that Brundle commented on TGF watching Ruebens in his right side mirror as Ruebens started to pass.

I recorded it, as well as watched it live, so yeah! Martin criticised SchM several times for moving over on Rubens after Rubens was coming alonside.

[truefan72]

Give us specific examples of Brabham and Rindt doing anything similar, then.

:up:

[Big Ben]

I'm sorry but I find it hard to believe you have posted this dribble the day after Michael Schumacher himself admitted that his move was unfair. Nearly every single person here bar one of two condemned his actions from the moment it happen, and only a couple of desperado's clung to the fact that the great man could not have possibly made an error of judgement. Well he did, and he apologised. It was an unnecessary move which could have caused a massive accident and Michael has taken responsibility for that. I suggest the misty eyed amongst us now realise and see it for what it was.. Its all water under the bridge and time to move on. :rolleyes:

really? i find it easy to believe. it sounds just like the thing our little friend would say :laugh: . if not for anything else at least to argue for the sake of arguing.

Now seriously Sainty, are you fooling around or do you really believe all this nonsens? :laugh:

[Daika]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8880167.stm

Stewards either run out of time or take to much time. I don't believe the steward mention in this article. If they would have blackflag Schumacher in hindsight (if more time was given to review it), why didn't they ban him for next race? because the decision to put him back 10 places was taken after the race not during the final laps. So the "ran out of time" is no valid argument because they had plenty of time (the race was over).

[555-04Q2]

Ant hill...mountain...

[ArrowsFA1]

Ex-F1 driver Warwick told 5 live: "Throwing a black flag would have shown a better example to our young drivers."
:up:

DW highlights the real issue here. This kind of "defensive" driving has become commonplace over the years, and because there has been little or no deterrent imposed by the rulemakers it is accepted in many quarters, and more particularly seen as a justifiable "tactic" to employ by drivers coming up through the ranks.

What kind of deterrent is a 10-place grid drop when you can just barge people out of the way to make up those places?

On another note, Mercedes PR must be in overdrive at the moment. One of the +'s of MS's return has been, apparently, the PR benefit to them. Not so sure they're seeing it that way at the moment.

[Sleeper]

Trying to force a driver towards a concrete wall at 180mph, so that their wheels practically brush against it, isnt defensive driving, its trying to force the other guy to lift through intimidation. Its a deplorable tactic that requires two things, that you know exactly how much space there is left between yourself, the racer next to you and the wall and that the guy next to you is going to lift. We got very lucky on sunday that Schumachers swerve didnt result in an almighty wreck, but it was bloody close.

Its about damned time that the stewards started clamping down on driving like this, the only problem is its 25 years too late as Senna and Schumy have already shown several generations of drivers that its acceptable (just look at Vettel and Webber). Maybe its the start of it being finally stamped out now.

[Mark]

What kind of deterrent is a 10-place grid drop when you can just barge people out of the way to make up those places?


Quite. Which is why I think an outright ban from the Belgian Grand Prix would have sent a better message.

[Valve Bounce]

:up:


What kind of deterrent is a 10-place grid drop when you can just barge people out of the way to make up those places?

.

I really don't know what to say here. St D and Ross Brawn reckon that SchM was in the right and has nothing to apologise for. SchM has now apologised, but it was a Wayne Carey apology, not a genuine unqualified apology. Martin Brundle was horrified and said that SchM waited until Rubens was alongside before applying the squeeze, while SchM maintained that he only moved right to give Rubens lotsa room to pass on his left.

The way I saw it on the replay, Rubens was at least partially alongside where SchM could see his car when SchM applied the squeeze.

But what penalty is appropriate? I'm confused here because a black flag would have had no effect at all as SchM was already out of the points anyway. 10 grid places would mean that he would be out of the points for the next race unless some unusual Safety Car deployment helps him up the order.

A ban would be a deterrent as he would have been properly humiliated, and it would give the third driver a chance to show his ability in that car.

Maybe we should ask St D; now that would be decisive.

[Mark]

A ban would be a deterrent as he would have been properly humiliated, and it would give the third driver a chance to show his ability in that car.
.

As I understand it the ban applies to the car too. So Mercedes would have not been able to run another driver.

[Firstgear]

Initially MS says he made a mistake in the previous corner, and then moved over for Rubens because he knew he was beat. Then in his 'apology' he says this
"I wanted to make it hard for him to pass me. I clearly showed him that I didn't want to let him pass"

The guy is a lying, cheating, piece of cr__.

Always has been. Still a has been.

As far as the penalty goes, I don't think they could have done anything else. Black flagging him does nothing as he's out of the points already. Banning him from the next race costs too much because he is the "clown" in the circus that sells alot of tickets.

[AndyL]

SchM has now apologised, but it was a Wayne Carey apology, not a genuine unqualified apology.

I don't know who Wayne Carey is but I think I know what you mean:


I wasn’t trying to endanger him with my move. If he had this feeling, then sorry, that was not my intention

Not so much "I'm sorry I was so reckless" as "I'm sorry Rubens is such a whiner".

[Cooper_S]

Rubens, es tut mir leid. Nun wirst du bitte aufhören zu weinen.

[pallone col bracciale]

Everybody knows that "Rubens Barrichello" is Portugeuse for "Cry Baby"

Sad, but it is too late for him to grow some testicoli.

Michael had him neutered ten years ago and the baby still hurts.

[Mia 01]

Trying to kill Rubens for ol times sake.

Why mention this driver any moore, but I guess.

[ioan]

I haven't read the entire thread but I haven't seen it mentioned that Brundle commented on TGF watching Ruebens in his right side mirror as Ruebens started to pass.

Maybe he was making sure that he left him just enough place.
Nah, it can't be after all, according to some sentimentalists, he was trying to 'kill' Rubens and he failed because Rubens is so 'brave'.

MS sure went to far with this dangerous move, however some people should take a chill pill before posting, and this is no allusion to you it's just that I randomly picked your post to reply.

[ioan]

Trying to kill Rubens for ol times sake.

Why mention this driver any moore, but I guess.

Good question. Why post the same crap again and again?! But then again many of us keep asking this very question every other day.

[Valve Bounce]

Oh yeah?

If thats the case how come you do not add credibility to your ratheremotional view by motivating your answer? Or are you just like Rubens?

Show that I am incorrect in my assessment.

Now that SchM has apologised for what he did, what do you have to say about your previous explanation of what happened?

[airshifter]

He did something wrong, however your assumption goes way to far.

It's not the first time he has "done something wrong", nor the first time it's been intentional. I can admire MS for his driving ability, and can even accept him putting someone in the grass at 180 mph when done as a legal blocking move. But in this instance his head was tilted and glued to his mirror, and after Rubens started to come up on him he intentionally steered into the concrete barrier at high speed.

So far history has tended to repeat itself.

[Saint Devote]

Now that SchM has apologised for what he did, what do you have to say about your previous explanation of what happened?

He did not apologize for his action - he clarified his posiiton and then said he was sorry that Rubens inteperpreted it that way.

he said on his web site:

... after I watched the incident with Rubens again, I must say that the stewards were right with their assessment: the move against him was too hard.

I wanted to make it hard for him to pass me. I clearly showed him that I didn't want to let him pass but... I wasn't seeking to endanger him with my move. If he feels I was then I'm sorry, this wasn't my intention."

I have no idea to the background of this. It is conceivable that this was a tactical move to calm things with the FIA.

I disagree that Schumi should have made ANY statement as he did on Monday and I view the whole situation as biased against the German driver.

Nobody has asked the question of "pedi-chanello" as he is derisively known in Brazil: why did YOU decide along with Schumacher to join in a situation that you afterwards cry about as dangerous?

Nobody forced Rubens he CHOSE. He just has a GIGANTIC chip on his shoulder and is an idiot.

[Saint Devote]

It's not the first time he has "done something wrong", nor the first time it's been intentional. I can admire MS for his driving ability, and can even accept him putting someone in the grass at 180 mph when done as a legal blocking move. But in this instance his head was tilted and glued to his mirror, and after Rubens started to come up on him he intentionally steered into the concrete barrier at high speed.

So far history has tended to repeat itself.

Rubens foot was not glued to th accelerator pedal - he could, just as Prost used to do, have pulled back.

It takes two to tango and Rubens is as much part of this as Schumi. But Rubens LOVES portraying himself as the victim.

Yet, did he stand by principle and leave Ferrari? No!
Did he stand by principle and pull out of the dice on Sunday? No!

Barrichello is a hypocrite.

[Valve Bounce]

He did not apologize for his action - he clarified his posiiton and then said he was sorry that Rubens inteperpreted it that way.

he said on his web site:

... after I watched the incident with Rubens again, I must say that the stewards were right with their assessment: the move against him was too hard.

I wanted to make it hard for him to pass me. I clearly showed him that I didn't want to let him pass but... I wasn't seeking to endanger him with my move. If he feels I was then I'm sorry, this wasn't my intention."

I have no idea to the background of this. It is conceivable that this was a tactical move to calm things with the FIA.

I disagree that Schumi should have made ANY statement as he did on Monday and I view the whole situation as biased against the German driver.

Nobody has asked the question of "pedi-chanello" as he is derisively known in Brazil: why did YOU decide along with Schumacher to join in a situation that you afterwards cry about as dangerous?

Nobody forced Rubens he CHOSE. He just has a GIGANTIC chip on his shoulder and is an idiot.

OK! so you are right and Niki Lauda is way out of line then: "Niki Lauda, who was almost killed in a spectacular crash at Nurburgring in 1976 slammed the German.

"To endanger another competitor in such a way is totally unnecessary," Lauda said.

Another former teammate of Schumacher, Eddie Irvine, said he should have copped a stronger penalty. "I cannot understand why he does these things," Irvine said. "It was an idiotic manoeuvre.

"He wasn't thinking and it was just pure arrogance that he thought he could drive another driver into the pit wall. He got punished but I don't think he was punished enough. He should have got a one-race ban because that was one of the worst manoeuvres I have seen."

I must say that you seem to be very intelligent in the face of comments from both Mark Webber and Niki Lauda which are contrary to yours.

And Martin Brundle, Derek Warwick and Mike Gascoyne are totally wrong, but you, the fountain of all F1 knowledge is right.

[Valve Bounce]

..............and ant:"BBC Radio 5 live race F1 analyst Anthony Davidson: "I really got shivers down my body when I saw that manoeuvre of Michael Schumacher's. I know commentators should remain unbiased but I agree completely and 100% back Barrichello there in calling for Schumacher to be black-flagged. It's going to be interesting to see what the stewards do. Any driver out there knows how dangerous that was. It could have been lethal."

[Ari]

;)

They are putting the blame on Vettel today too, for giving Webber place to breath at the restart after the team failed to call him for pit stop.

Webber might be a good driver and an OK person, his fans though :down:

ioan!? :(

For shame!

[Valve Bounce]

How dare you use a quote from the great Niki Lauda which does not support St.D's view, how dare you!! :p

Thats put us all in abit of a tight spot and I doubt we'll get an answer. :)

:( :bigcry:

[ArrowsFA1]

I disagree that Schumi should have made ANY statement as he did on Monday...
I suspect that pressure from Mercedes forced Michael to make some kind of apology given the negative publicity the incident has caused. After all, we are told that he is a great asset to the manufacturer in PR terms.

He was forced to do a similar thing after Jerez '97 but then, as now, you get the sense that they're just words...unless he has changed, but his actions on Sunday suggest he hasn't.

[Valve Bounce]

I suspect that pressure from Mercedes forced Michael to make some kind of apology given the negative publicity the incident has caused. After all, we are told that he is a great asset to the manufacturer in PR terms.

He was forced to do a similar thing after Jerez '97 but then, as now, you get the sense that they're just words...unless he has changed, but his actions on Sunday suggest he hasn't.

He probably also realised that quite a few former F1 drivers, including Niki Lauda thinks that his actions were "unwarranted" (or worse).

[555-04Q2]

There are far too many self righteous people on this forum :(

[Valve Bounce]

There are far too many self righteous people on this forum :(

Your point being????

[555-04Q2]

My three year old would understand my post Valve!

[Valve Bounce]

My three year old would understand my post Valve!

You have a very understanding three year old. He understands that you are silly. You must have told him this: "Niki Lauda, who was almost killed in a spectacular crash at Nurburgring in 1976 slammed the German.

"To endanger another competitor in such a way is totally unnecessary," Lauda said.

[Big Ben]

My three year old would understand my post Valve!

the question is: can she stand you?

[Saint Devote]

He probably also realised that quite a few former F1 drivers, including Niki Lauda thinks that his actions were "unwarranted" (or worse).

Mika Hakkinen is the only driver that successfully competed head-on with Schumi at his heights. What does he have to say?

You see Mika is a driver that could "read" and beat Schumi - I think the only driver able to adjust that way today would be Hamilton.

And what would Mika say now? I reckon he would just shrug and say "thats Michael".

Mika is the standard who fought Schumacher and there was no cry-baby, no hypocrysy and no quarter given.

The hysterical reaction today is pathetic and bears no resemblance to reality. Rubens is a littke man with a gigantic chip on his parasitic shoulders and HE ought to apolohize for this despicable situation he triggered.

[ArrowsFA1]

Mika Hakkinen is the only driver that successfully competed head-on with Schumi at his heights. What does he have to say?
It might be worth taking a look at this month's Motor Sport magazine (http://www.motorsportmagazine.co.uk/2010/07/30/latest-issue-%E2%80%93-september-2010/) which has an interview with Mika.

IIRC Mika chose to make his views clear to Michael behind closed doors so what was said can only be speculated on.

[wedge]

It might be worth taking a look at this month's Motor Sport magazine (http://www.motorsportmagazine.co.uk/2010/07/30/latest-issue-%E2%80%93-september-2010/) which has an interview with Mika.

IIRC Mika chose to make his views clear to Michael behind closed doors so what was said can only be speculated on.

Mika famously and privately discussed the blocking move with Schumi just as they got out of the cars in Spa 2000 but I don't remember Mika being cry baby when he talked with the media.

[Valve Bounce]

Mika Hakkinen is the only driver that successfully competed head-on with Schumi at his heights. What does he have to say?

You see Mika is a driver that could "read" and beat Schumi - I think the only driver able to adjust that way today would be Hamilton.

And what would Mika say now? I reckon he would just shrug and say "thats Michael".

Mika is the standard who fought Schumacher and there was no cry-baby, no hypocrysy and no quarter given.

The hysterical reaction today is pathetic and bears no resemblance to reality. Rubens is a littke man with a gigantic chip on his parasitic shoulders and HE ought to apolohize for this despicable situation he triggered.

My goodness! so where does that leave Niki's statement? Because he did not successfully compete head on with SchM at his heights, does that lessen the importance of his comment? We have here at least two current F1 drivers and four past F1 drivers who have voiced their disapproval of SchM's pass. Where do their opinions fit in with the last paragraph of your rant?

I mean we have at least six guys who have raced F1 cars who do not appear to share your view. Now you insist that Rubens should apologise. Even SchM hasn't voiced such a view as far as I know. No offence here, but you must be one helluva armchair F1 analyst. Just as an afterthought, do you know of a single F1 driver, past or present, who agrees with your view that:" ....and HE (Rubens) ought to apolohize for this despicable situation he triggered" ?

[pallone col bracciale]

Its funny really because Ruben's has said very little about the incident and the majority of the criticism has come from fans, and the media. Yet some disgruntled fans stick the boot into Rubens? The man who gave Ferrari so much. It seems any driver who leaves Ferrari gets this treatment these days. Sad. :mark:

So we should not mention a former Ferrari drivers failings because of service to the Scuderia?

I do not understand this logic.

For first, with that way of thinking, this thread should not exist.

[Valve Bounce]

So we should not mention a former Ferrari drivers failings because of service to the Scuderia?

I do not understand this logic.

For first, with that way of thinking, this thread should not exist.

Then don't bother to read it. QED

[pallone col bracciale]

Then don't bother to read it

It was not worth reading. But, sadly, the only way to discover this is to read it.

Next time I shall notice the posters name and save my eyes.

Nil Carborundum.

[Tazio]

ioan!? :(

For shame!

+1

Ausie sports enthusiasts have a great passion for their countryman. Any trash talking about MW as he leads the WDC at this point in the season is de classe IMO
Btw I attended the Sony Ericson WTA San Diego Open and watched this match yesterday:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100804/sp_afp/tenniswtausa

I was pulling hard for the Slovakian after she lost the first set 6-0
and she pushed her hard. The third set was on serve up until 4-4
BTW They're both a couple of "head cases" :p :
But not to go too far off topic I saw Mark Philippoussis there. (a proud son of Oz). I'm bringing my camera when I go for the finals and maybe get some pics to share with the forum if anyone's interested

[ArrowsFA1]

Mika Hakkinen is quoted in Motor Sport (http://www.motorsportmagazine.co.uk/2010/07/30/latest-issue-%E2%80%93-september-2010/) about the 2000 Belgian GP:

"I had a tough time with Michael that day. He put me on the grass not once, but several times, at over 300kph. If I'd lost it I would really have got hurt. So I was angry like hell. What he did just motivated me more. I was ahead in the championship, and I think he was desperate. After the race I went to talk to him. But with Michael that doesn't help, he is what he is. I'd known him since F3. He was a hard racer, well that's OK. You play some tricks, go to the limit of the rules, but you don't look in the mirror and then move to where the guy is coming."

[ArrowsFA1]

I know :p : but still, someone was interested earlier in what Mika had to say so that question has been answered.

[wedge]

In fairness Ruben's didn't exactly act like a cry baby in the post race coverage on the BBC either. In fact he was finding it in himself to laugh at it and share the presenters disbelief at Schumachers version of events. Hardly an emotional outburst. :)

He said he didn't want to go heaven!

Sorry but Schumi's track record with ruthless manoeuvres and that he was blatantly veering to the right and the line and commitment that Rubens took he should have no complaints.

[Valve Bounce]

He said he didn't want to go heaven!

.

That's not what he said!! He said he didn't want to go to heaven before Michael. :p :

[Saint Devote]

I know :p : but still, someone was interested earlier in what Mika had to say so that question has been answered.

I mentioned Mika. Of course the person is angry - its the in heat and passion of battle. But Mika went and remonstrated and then got on with things and understood how to race against Schumacher.

But the hypocrysy is virulent nowadays - when Kamui crowded Nakajima into the Interlagos pitwall and DID cause a high speed collision, people including ON THIS FORUM were cheering the Jap.

When Jenson complained about Kobayashi's moving around under braking, people, including ON THIS FORUM decried Jense.

Now? With Schumi and that cry-baby Barrichello [Schumi ought to go and feed him a knuckle sandwich ESPECIALLY now after all the crap he has caused] similar circumstances and Schumi is considered evil incarnate!

Well this annoys me. And I cant stand the Schumi-haters at the best of times.

If I were a team owner what sort of driver would I rather have? I would have a Schumi and a Senna or a Mansell or a Hamilton because I know that when push comes to shove they WILL be prepared to go to the wall! Not some goddam Barrichello or that whiney little manchild Coulthard.

And while I mention Lewis? How conveniently people forget HIS performance in 2006 at the Hungaroring. He pushed and PUT himself millimeters from the same wall to win from the back of the grid.

So you supporters of Lewis? What will you do one day when your precious driver does what Schumi or Senna would have done? Lewis IS like that and if any problems betweeen he and Jense arise he will not think twice about pushing his teammate to the wall.

[Valve Bounce]

But the hypocrysy is virulent nowadays -

Well this annoys me. And I cant stand the Schumi-haters at the best of times.

.

But what about Niki Lauda's comment? and the other F1 or former F1 drivers' comments on this incident at Hungary? Where do they stand with you? Surely you're not going to give Niki a knuckle sandwich. :eek:

[wedge]

If I were a team owner what sort of driver would I rather have? I would have a Schumi and a Senna or a Mansell or a Hamilton because I know that when push comes to shove they WILL be prepared to go to the wall!

When Senna and Mansell collided at Spa, 1986/7(???) Mansell grabbed Senna by the throught claiming Senna tried to kill him.

[Valve Bounce]

If I were a team owner what sort of driver would I rather have? I would have a Schumi and a Senna or a Mansell or a Hamilton because I know that when push comes to shove they WILL be prepared to go to the wall! Not some goddam Barrichello or that whiney little manchild Coulthard.

l.

Well, I guess Bunsen is chopped liver then, and a burnt one at that. :(

[wedge]

When Senna and Mansell collided at Spa, 1986/7(???) Mansell grabbed Senna by the throught claiming Senna tried to kill him.

LOL!

Just noticed typo. I couldn't spell throat!

[Big Ben]

So what are your opinions on the 'Hamilton Haters' on this forum? You stick the boot in every chance you get and then get very offended when its done in reverse. Oh please. :rolleyes:

While sitting on the throne and browsing through this forum I've come to a conclusion. Despite his tough boy makeup our little friend is quite soft on the inside. He has a thing for underdogs. He used to be pretty rough with schumi before his lame return. Now that Rosberg is beating the living days out of him and the signs that he's overwhelmed are pretty obvious Sainty got really soft about him. This would explain his passion for button too.

[Valve Bounce]

While sitting on the throne and browsing through this forum I've come to a conclusion. Despite his tough boy makeup our little friend is quite soft on the inside. He has a thing for underdogs. He used to be pretty rough with schumi before his lame return. Now that Rosberg is beating the living days out of him and the signs that he's overwhelmed are pretty obvious Sainty got really soft about him. This would explain his passion for button too.

That's how they toughen them up at Golders Green. :D

[Saint Devote]

But what about Niki Lauda's comment? and the other F1 or former F1 drivers' comments on this incident at Hungary? Where do they stand with you? Surely you're not going to give Niki a knuckle sandwich. :eek:

:D you do not give someone a knucklesandwich for disagreeing!!

I have an attitude that agrees with Schumi and Senna.

[Saint Devote]

So what are your opinions on the 'Hamilton Haters' on this forum? You stick the boot in every chance you get and then get very offended when its done in reverse. Oh please. :rolleyes:

I criticize Hamilton when warranted - but I also commend him at times, however rarely.

He is Jense's most difficult and direct opposition - the enemy. I defend Jense because I support him as well as being a fan.

I am not a fan of Hamilton but I do love his driving when he is just destroying everyome else on the track. His dice with Schumi earlier on in the year for five laps I think, was great AND he learnt HOW to deal with Schumi - thats part of his brilliance.

[Saint Devote]

When Senna and Mansell collided at Spa, 1986/7(???) Mansell grabbed Senna by the throught claiming Senna tried to kill him.

And Schumi had be stopped once from punching Coulthard declaring that the pretentious Scot tried to "kill him".

Or when Senna punched Irvine. One of my favorite drivers who reacts perfectly - attitude and fisticuffs when needed is Perry Mcarthy.

Of course one will react to situations - its also part of racing and a driver HAS TO otherwise he will be considered weak and a pushover and there will no respect on track.

[Saint Devote]

Well, I guess Bunsen is chopped liver then, and a burnt one at that. :(

What does this have to do with Jenson?

I think the sort of team Whitmarsh has signed is ideal. If it were say Vettel and Hamilton in the team then there would be strife.

In this thread we are discussing drivers of a particular sort.

That Jense and Lewis are scant points apart and both having won two grands prix apiece is evidence that Jense's approach works well.

Jenson is the MOST well adjusted driver in F1 and never throws the car off the road - ANY team would be most fortunate to employ him - not to forget to mention that when Jense has a car he loves he will beat EVERYONE.

[Valve Bounce]

While sitting on the throne and browsing through this forum I've come to a conclusion. Despite his tough boy makeup our little friend is quite soft on the inside. He has a thing for underdogs. He used to be pretty rough with schumi before his lame return. Now that Rosberg is beating the living days out of him and the signs that he's overwhelmed are pretty obvious Sainty got really soft about him. This would explain his passion for button too.

Now that you mention it, I seem to remember that the St. used to refer to SchM with disdain. I just wonder whether we are getting some fellow with a slpit personality, or whether he is showing some sorta weird coming out like Julia Gillard Mk II.

He obviously hates Rubens, and whenever I ask him about the current and previous F1 drivers, including Niki Lauda, who disagree with him, he simply dodges the subject.

[Valve Bounce]

What does this have to do with Jenson?

.

Well,, in your post that I quoted, you stated that: If I were a team owner what sort of driver would I rather have? I would have a Schumi and a Senna or a Mansell or a Hamilton... but you didn't choose Bunsen, the guy you've been raving about since you got here. I mean, you apprear to have morphed into a differrent persona.

Oh Yes! would you like to comment on the opinions of Niki Lauda, Mark Webber, Eddie Irvine, Davidson, Martin Brundle, David Coulthard, et al, whose views on the incident are opposite to yours?

And I suppose you would have a great story about why SchM came up with an apology when it is all Ruben's fault.

[Mintexmemory]

I somehow don't think Schuey would have got very far with that one. Punching a guy with a chin designed to glance off blows, combined with an angry Scot, is something even your angriest German could not handle.. :p

"Hold me back! For christsakkes SOMEONE hold me back!" Lots of previous about angry Germans v angry Scots
Brabham and Rindt were hard racers and Black Jack had a particular rep for having the 'widest' vehicle on the track but to the best of my recollection (1966 onwards) they never deliberately attempted to drive an opponent in to a chickening out situation. At that time differences were settled in a way that is not PR savvy or could be kept discrete when any cameras there might be were only focussed on the track. The list of drivers who would have planted MS had he tried it on them includes :
Hill. G
Regazzoni
Siffert
Bonnier
Brabham
Hulme
Hawkins
Hunt
Hailwood
Ganley
etc
Maybe a few more of the current crop of GP drivers need to grow a pair to keep MS types in their place

[Tazio]

It certainly works but I doubt Jenson wants to be looked at as a number 2 driver. Consistently being outqualified and paced by his teammate must be fairly disappointing. Also regularly finishing a few places behind Lewis and picking up a few points is far from ideal. He is the current WDC and in the early part of the season it looked like Lewis had met his match, but its slowly evolved into what we all expected. Lewis can adapt his style and has kicked the myth about being too hard on his tyres into touch, along with his ability to out drive the car. Jenson is good on his day, but unless its perfect, he tends to struggle with grip.

On a plus point he is better at triathlon's than Lewis, and for those who hold that dear or are actually interested in triathlon's, it must be some consolation. I personally get alot more satisfaction watching Lewis beat him ontrack in their full time profession. Call me old fashioned.. :p

Bunsen is really into it, which makes it apparent that he doesn’t have too much to consider about conditioning except G force related neck conditioning for F1. And I think it is appropriate to say that it doesn’t require a great amount of skill for these events. It’s about strength, wind, and will.
But that doesn't mean Jack-Squat if he gets his @$$ handed to him by the boss in his day job. :bounce: :s mokin:

[Bagwan]

Hey gents , ya think maybe there should be at least a mention of the shoe in those posts ?
It is a thread about him , ya know .

And , about that , he didn't hit him .
And Rubens didn't hit the wall .

It all becomes a matter of degree .

Just how close to the wall would have been ok ?
If he was to have given Rubinho a few feet , would it have been ok ?
What if it was only a foot ?

There seemed to be only inches to spare , but they didn't touch .

They scared the crap out of each other , but neither hit a damn thing .
They scared the crap out of all of us , too , but we didn't see the horrific accident that it instantly brings to mind the "good ol' days" when F1 was a blood sport that stole our heroes regularly .

What we saw was indeed tight .
Sadly , though , the cries that Schumacher is too dangerous for F1 have completely overshadowed the fact that we saw some incredible car control from both racers .

Michael pushed him as close as anyone ever could , without leaving any more than was absolutely necessary .
It was clinical and precise .

And , Rubens , unbelievably , was able to thread that needle , touching neither Michael's car or the wall .


Michael's reaction immediately after the incident is very typical of his mindset , I think .
I believe he decides how the next corner will play out , and is very upset when a driver contesting his desires doesn't play along .
He said he left the outside open for Rubens .
That's a nice way to say "I wasn't going to let him get the inside line" .

With his continuing to move right with Rubens beside shows to me he still has some of the same traits to his character , but there's one big difference here to the character of the driver that turned into Villeneuve's sidepod in '97 .

He didn't hit him .
His "deliberate , but instinctual" move , in this race , left Rubens just enough room .



When things get really tight like this , it should remind all , drivers and fans , that this is a dangerous sport .
Like it or not , it is those who get close to the edge that make this whole exercise as exciting as it is .

It would have been horribly tragic to lose either of these two in that race , but let's not completely forget what an amazing display of driving it was .
Danger is part of the deal .
Let's not let our safe and cosy insulated coccoons have us miss the action as it comes by .

[Tazio]

Hey gents , ya think maybe there should be at least a mention of the shoe in those posts ?
It is a thread about him , ya know .

And , about that , he didn't hit him .
And Rubens didn't hit the wall .

It all becomes a matter of degree .

Just how close to the wall would have been ok ?
If he was to have given Rubinho a few feet , would it have been ok ?
What if it was only a foot ?

There seemed to be only inches to spare , but they didn't touch .

They scared the crap out of each other , but neither hit a damn thing .
They scared the crap out of all of us , too , but we didn't see the horrific accident that it instantly brings to mind the "good ol' days" when F1 was a blood sport that stole our heroes regularly .

What we saw was indeed tight .
Sadly , though , the cries that Schumacher is too dangerous for F1 have completely overshadowed the fact that we saw some incredible car control from both racers .

Michael pushed him as close as anyone ever could , without leaving any more than was absolutely necessary .
It was clinical and precise .

And , Rubens , unbelievably , was able to thread that needle , touching neither Michael's car or the wall .


Michael's reaction immediately after the incident is very typical of his mindset , I think .
I believe he decides how the next corner will play out , and is very upset when a driver contesting his desires doesn't play along .
He said he left the outside open for Rubens .
That's a nice way to say "I wasn't going to let him get the inside line" .

With his continuing to move right with Rubens beside shows to me he still has some of the same traits to his character , but there's one big difference here to the character of the driver that turned into Villeneuve's sidepod in '97 .

He didn't hit him .
His "deliberate , but instinctual" move , in this race , left Rubens just enough room .



When things get really tight like this , it should remind all , drivers and fans , that this is a dangerous sport .
Like it or not , it is those who get close to the edge that make this whole exercise as exciting as it is .

It would have been horribly tragic to lose either of these two in that race , but let's not completely forget what an amazing display of driving it was .
Danger is part of the deal .
Let's not let our safe and cosy insulated coccoons have us miss the action as it comes by .
:s ailor: :s ailor: :s ailor:
Bags'.... I rate this comment three Swabs' out of a possible five :)

[airshifter]

I mentioned Mika. Of course the person is angry - its the in heat and passion of battle. But Mika went and remonstrated and then got on with things and understood how to race against Schumacher.

Rubens did the same thing. He got on with it and completed the pass on the first move. Unlike Mika he didn't let the attempted intimidation of MS make him back out of a pass that he knew he could make.

Both Mika and Rubens made a strong argument that Schumacher was making a dangerous move. Considering the fact that Mika was pushed onto the grass and Rubens was pushed towards a concrete barrier it's actually surprising that Rubens didn't complain much more.... grass tends to be much more forgiving than concrete.

MS simply discovered that intimidation only works with some drivers, not all of them. And unlike some if not many drivers, MS at least admitted it was too hard of a move but also made it clear he wasn't trying to kill Rubens or anything of that nature.




But the hypocrysy is virulent nowadays

I agree. Simliar to when you defend Jenson stating that he is within points of Lewis, but ignore the fact that Lewis has had two car failures while well into points paying positions.

As for Kobayashi and Jenson, Kobay moved while in front of Jenson, where Jenson had plenty of exit room on track. MS moved while alongside Rubens, where Rubens had a concrete wall next to him. It's a complete apples and oranges comparison, only brought up because Jenson had issues passing a driver that you don't rate as worthy enough to bother racing for position.